Subject: [gto2] Re: Mid Atlantic Area Parts Dealers Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 19:10:03 -0400 From: "josephnc" Jerry, I deal almost exclusively with Tyler Mitchell in Madison, NC, about 30 minutes north of me. He
is honest, fair, and a true lover of the Pontiac hobby. He is at all of the big Pontiac events
and the biggest swap meets (he will be at fall Charlotte at Lowe's Motor Speedway next). He
specializes in 1964-72 GTO and LeMans. I know he has parts for your car (I have a '67 LeMans,
into which he installed the Dearborn 3-speed trans). Tim -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Connolly Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 5:58 PM Subject: [gto2] Mid Atlantic Area Parts Dealers << I'm trying to find any good (as in fairly honest) GTO/Tempest/LeMans parts dealers here in
the mid-Atlantic area, specifically, Virginia. If any of you know of someone, could you pass along the info. on them to me? Thanks! Jerry Connolly '66 LeMans >> Subject: [gto2] Useful tool Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 22:54:33 CST From: Kitty Carry-All Just wanted to pass along a tip about a tool that's known more for coin and stamp collecting
than gearheading... A couple of years ago, I received an illuminated magnifier for Christmas. Not a little hand-held job but a big mutha that mounts to a table or workbench edge. It has a
big lens that's encircled by a fluorescent lamp and it's *extremely* useful for (and here's a
setup line if there ever was one) examining small parts. Great as a gift and money well-spent
if purchased! Brad Subject: [gto2] To freeze or not to freeze! Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:46:46 EDT From: Gaotman428 That is the question! Today I took some of my engine parts over to a guys house, here in Tucson,
to get them cryogenically frozen [with liquid nitrogen] to increase their life span. Everything
I have read on the net about this process SWEARS that this process works. I talked to a
motorcycle shop, next to my work, who uses this guy to freeze all of their racing engines. He
told me that before they started freezing their engines, they would last about 10-15 races
before the crank or valve springs would break. Now they get 40-50 races out of the same engines
with no broken parts! Said he hasn't broken a single crank or valve spring since! These engines
only need a basic rebuild now. Freezing parts changes the molecular structure of the part and
eliminates all stresses inheritantly cast into the parts. It does not make the part any harder
or stronger, just more wear resistant. Aluminum really benefits from this process. Engine blocks
that have been frozen and then machined will be stress free afterwards. Normally, because of
the stresses cast into the block, when the cylinders heat up, they become out of round. After freezing, they expand round, giving much better ring seal, therefore making more power.
This guy even says that people have had him freeze their golf balls and they fly farther! Drill
bits and other cutting tools last much, much longer before needing to be re sharpened, and they
make a much nicer cut. This process was discovered by N.A.S.A. when they would get things back
from outer space, and they would be better then they were when sent out. I had my cast rods, pistons, rings, bearings, valves, valve springs, retainers and keepers
frozen. They don't appear any different, but I am convinced that they will last much longer.
The process claims to triple and quadruple the parts life! When I save up enough money, I will
have my block, crank, cam & lifters, oil pump & shaft, timing chain & gears, and heads frozen
also. He will freeze the entire engine [all apart of course] for about $500. He says if you
don't do anything else, you should at least freeze the valve springs. It realigns the molecules
all in the same direction so they dissipate heat much better. We all know what heat does to
springs. He charges $1.50 per spring, about $7.00 per rod, and about $5.00 per piston with the
pin and rings! Pretty cheap insurance for some expensive parts. The process takes the parts
down to -320 degrees over a period of several hours [1 degree per minute] then leaves them
there for 24 hours, then brings them back to room temp. 1 degree per minute. Can't wait to test
the results. I've heard of this process for several years now, and was excited when I heard of
someone here in town doing it. Top drag racers kept it a secret for many years. Sorry this is
so long, but I think we could all benefit from this process and thought it was worth sharing.
If interested, his phone # is 1-520-574-0296. His name is Jeff Shenk and the name of his
business is -320 Solutions. Goatman Subject: [gto2] [gto] cryo at home: Mr. Freeze! Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:09:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Alpha Male I know several CMP match shooters who swear by having their Garand and M14 barrels cryo'd. But,
they're in the same league as the NASCAR guys who would spend buku $$$ for that extra hundredth
of a second. I shoot my M1 almost as bad as I drive, so no liquid nitrogen for moi. Here is a cool link to check out: http://www.onecryo.com/motorsp.htm Peter Howey GTO List Administrator 1967 Firebird RA 400 NOS Tripower 1968 GTO HO Convertible On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Powdered Toast Man wrote: << I believe that the NASCAR guys limit the use of cryo treatment to gears. I have seen reports
showing the difference between untreated treated transmission gears. The NASCAR guys would
chuck transmission gears after each race because of excessive wear and missing teeth. With
treatment they are able to get several races before trashing. I also recall reading/hearing
that the cryo processes were developed in Europe. From this I assume that the F1 guys have been
using this for years. Finally, I read some reports of cryo treatment of gun barrels for reduced
bore erosion. Andy '65 coupe, 389, 3-2s, 4-spd >> <<< There was an article a few months back in the Kansas City Star newspaper about a local
business providing this service. NASCAR teams are also using it. Bob Chumley >>> Subject: [gto2] Re: [gto] Re: To freeze or not to freeze! Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 02:37:12 EDT From: Gaotman428 This guy, since we gave him allot of stuff, charged me and my friend a total of $210. That
included 2 sets of forged pistons, 2 sets of rods, 2 sets of the following, valves, rod
bearings, main bearings, valve retainers and keepers, piston rings, and 3 sets of valve springs.
This was a discount since he had room in the drawer left over, he did not charge us piece by
piece. The bigger the part, the more it costs. These were relatively small items and since he
is relatively new in the business [about a year] he gave us a break to help get some exposure.
I, however, did not start this thread because he asked me to, but rather because I truly
believe in it's capabilities, and would like to see the guy make it in this business so, I don't
have to send across country to have it done. This guy really seems to know his stuff and is
very honest about it and, from what I have read about the process, is very properly setup. He's
a 1 man business, so he's not big business. Just a working man like the rest of us. He was laid
off work because of a back injury and is just trying to make an honest living. He won't B.S.
you, and try to make it sound better than it is, just tells you straight out what he knows
about it and what customers have reported back to him. Seems to me that he has really done his
homework! Goatman Subject: [GTO] Breaking in a motor Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:59:13 -0500 From: "Mike Pride" List, Got a beautiful rebuilt Tripower about to go into the 65. Do I need to run it at 1500 to 2000
rpm the first time I crank it? I don’t think it has the oiling holes in the bearings. Also, do
y’all know of a specific "break in mileage"? Meaning, do I need to drive it so many miles
before I kick the sh!t out of the F*ord P*ny next to me at the stoplight? Mike 65 h/t Subject: Re: [GTO] Breaking in a motor Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 04:39:26 EDT From: Corpkilr1 Mike, Run it out at 1500.......2000, for 'bout 20 min. After that you are good to go. Make sure
you change the oil and filter within the first wk. Gotta get rid of the break in lube and crap. Neil -corpkilr- Subject: Re: [GTO] Breaking in a motor Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:12:06 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << For a roller cam motor, I just fire it and get it to operating temp. for a couple minutes
and go. As for rings and such, it is my OPINION that they all seat much faster than people
believe. So I think the only reason for a break in period is because of a hydraulic or solid
cam. Joey >> My opinion exactly Joey. Rings pretty much seat immediately unless you use chrome rings. They
take a little longer to seat. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Breaking in a motor Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:24:42 EDT From: PONTIAC475 << My opinion exactly Joey. Rings pretty much seat immediately unless you use chrome rings.
They take a little longer to seat. Goatman >> Thank You GOATMAN, everyone seems to argue this point w/me. And I am not sure why?? Is it that
back in the day when you had to get out and crank your car over manually, rings where designed
to seat slowly. Although it is sad that I even know that this is true, but that what happens when you try and
see how much NOS a motor can handle on a dyno, thank god none of them where my motors. But on
tear down w/only a 20 minute breakin the rings looked as set as if they ran for a full season. I think people assume a perfect seal means the cylinder walls are perfectly smooth as in shiny.
But I have seen cylinders hold more pressure w/a slightly visible cross hatch left. Not sure if
this is true, but it's what I have seen. Possibly I am right or possibly I recorded #'s that where outside the norm, I think Goatman
would know the answer to this question than I would. As I always say real world experience is
the BEST kind, and Goatman pulls motors apart everyday (which I am envious of). Joey Subject: Re: [GTO] Breaking in a motor Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:57:06 EDT From: PONTIAC475 << List, Got a beautiful rebuilt Tripower about to go into the 65. Do I need to run it at 1500 to 2000
rpm the first time I crank it? >> I go from 2,000 rpms to 3,000 rpms. What you are doing here is breaking in the camshaft,
nothing else. And to do this you need oil on the cam, but wait there is no cam lobe oiling you
may be thinking?? That's why the high rpms, because the cam receives oil from the crank
throwing it on the cam, that's why you need the rpms. Also, watch the exhaust manifolds if they start to glow red that's because you need more timing
(your motor should never detonate free revving it, so, don't be afraid of too much timing). For a roller cam motor, I just fire it and get it to operating temp. for a couple minutes and
go. As for rings and such it is my OPINION that they all seat much faster than people believe.
So I think the only reason for a break in period is because of a hydraulic or solid cam. Joey Subject: RE: [GTO] Breaking in a motor Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:16:52 -0400 From: CharlesB I was basically taught as a rule of thumb to run it at about 22-2400 (2000 at minimum) for
20-25 minutes then keep it to a max. rpm of 2500-3000 tops for the 1st 4-500 miles of driving
it. I also change the oil & filter right after the initial shutdown & change plugs (no
Champions!). CB Subject: Re: [GTO] Breaking in a motor Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 01:45:36 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Thank You GOATMAN, everyone seems to argue this point w/me. And I am not sure why?? Is it
that back in the day when you had to get out and crank your car over manually, rings where
designed to seat slowly. >> Joey, I think this all started back in 1955 when the Chevy 265 came out. The factory service
manual said that if it used excessive oil then you should drop a pinch of Bon-Ami [spell check]
down the carb. The grit in the cleanser would help the rings seat. Probably was due to the fact that Chevy cylinders distort so much when the heads were bolted on.
Good old Chevy technology! LOL!! Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Breaking in a motor Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 02:03:38 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << I was basically taught as a rule of thumb to run it at about 22-2400 (2000 at minimum) for
20-25 minutes then keep it to a max. rpm of 2500-3000 tops for the 1st 4-500 miles of driving
it. I also change the oil & filter right after the initial shutdown & change plugs (no
Champions!). CB >> The thing about 2500-3000 for the first 4-500 miles was mainly suggested by the factory because
their tolerances ranged from about .0005-.003 bearing clearance and they wanted to make sure
that a tight engine had plenty of time to "wear in". If you are confident in the rebuilder,
then just go for it! Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Breaking in a motor Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 00:16:52 EDT From: Fa627 I thought I've heard from a number of people that the initial rev/time period was to harden the
lobe surface on the camshaft. I've also heard from many that Mopar's cam-break-in lube was about the best. Lou Subject: [GTO] Motor Swap Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:36:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Smit I purchased a 66 GTO Hardtop in need of some attention. One of the first things I have planned
is to put the original motor back in the car (389 Tri-power). Right now the car has a built-up
Chevy 350 in it. My question is this: The 350 has been sitting for about 6-8 years and I want
to make sure that it is in good running condition before I yank it for my parts hauler. What
steps should I take before turning the key to see if it will start? Your expertise on this list is much appreciated, BDS Subject: Re: [GTO] Motor Swap Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:40:12 EDT From: Goats3 << My question is this: The 350 has been sitting for about 6-8 years and I want to make sure
that it is in good running condition before I yank it for my parts hauler. What steps should I
take before turning the key to see if it will start ? >> It wouldn't hurt to pull the plugs and give the cylinders a shot of oil. New plugs, along with
points and condenser (if so equipped), fresh gas, and you should be good to go. Also, check for
rotted fuel lines, etc. Kenny L Subject: RE: [GTO] Motor Swap Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:42:22 -0400 From: CharlesB You might also consider taking out the distributor & priming the engine again before cranking
it - it might be pretty dry up top. CB Subject: [GTO] '68 engine in '66 GTO Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:44:26 -0500 From: "iceman" Hello... I am about to reinstall my engine in my GTO. It's a 1968 400 cu., and I'm installing it in my
66 GTO. If I replace the motor mounts, which model should I use? Mounts for a 1968, or for a
1966? I think the mounts bolt to the engine the same way for both model years, but are there
any differences? It seems like 1968 mounts are readily available, where as 1966 mounts are not. The engine mount brackets on my frame were raised above the frame, perched atop a set of 3/8
inch nuts. When I restored the frame, I bolted the frame mounts directly to the frame. Now I'm
not sure if the engine will bolt in right. I don't know if the engine was raised to accommodate
the headers, or to facilitate the installation of the engine itself. I don't want to find out
when I try to install the engine. Is there a difference in the motor mounts between a 1966 and a 1968? thanks... bill Subject: Re: [GTO] '68 engine in '66 GTO Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 06:49:19 -0500 From: Terry Nixon The frame brackets do not have any spacer between them and the frame, unless someone added them
as clearance as you said. The A-body brackets were the same Pontiac part number from '64 until
at least '71 for V8s, except 455s. The rubber insulators were the same from '64 to '69. I don't
understand why they would be available for a '68 but not a '66. Terry Subject: RE: [GTO] '68 engine in '66 GTO Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 21:43:54 -0500 From: "iceman" Thanks for the feedback. The engine is in and fits fine with the 68' mounts. The clearance
looks good. I'm switching back to cast iron manifolds, which fit in a lot better than headers. bill 66 Convert Subject: [GTO] Tracking Ownership Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 09:46:24 -0500 From: "Robert J. Smith" I just heard on the radio about a web site that will provide an ownership record of your car
for free, but didn't catch the address. Anybody know what it is? Bob Smith 65 Convertible Carol Stream, IL Subject: Re: [GTO] Tracking Ownership Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:59:20 EDT From: LemansSport469 Hi Bob, Two things ...First - I don't know of the website, but if you ever find out please pass it on.
When I tried to find my '65 (back quite a few years) I had to petition a software program from
the State of Illinois because VIN numbers were not used to track autos until either 66 or 67.
This program would have to be written for my serial/vin number search and back then it would
cost $600. Needless to say I did not do it, because if the car ended up being sold out of state... They
did not track that. Bruce Subject: Re: [GTO] Tracking Ownership Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 06:18:43 -0400 From: Bad64Goat It might be http://www.carfax.com David Subject: Re: [GTO] Tracking Ownership Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 06:20:39 -0500 From: Terry Nixon Funny. A co-worker just used this service to check out used cars he wanted to buy. He gets
unlimited use for two months. The kicker is that the VIN must be 17 digits or more, which means
nothing available before 1981. It does not return owners' names, just the state title number
and date when the transfer was effected. Terry Subject: RE: [GTO] Tracking Ownership Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 08:52:21 -0500 From: "Robert J. Smith" Bruce - I'm sure you saw the carfax posts. I always appreciate the value of this list. Thanks. Bob Subject: [GTO] NEW GTO BOOK!!!!!!!! Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:35:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "Petro Stephen R” Hi everyone, HOT off the press!!! A NEW GTO book out called: Pontiac GTO The Great One by
author Steve Statham. Its a 156 page hard cover book with many color pictures. You can order
it at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0760308284/o/qid=959273934/sr=2-2/002-0399646-1375406 Or go to the local Borders or Barnes and Noble. I am really excited because my car is the car
on the cover!!! It is also on pages 12, 61, 115, 118 and 119. It is a true honor to be in
something like this. I am on cloud nine!!!!!!!! My friends JUDGE is, also, in allot of the
pictures. It’s the Atoll Blue 1970. Also, our president of our Woodward GTO Tigers, Bill
Schultz has his Royal Bobcat Ram Air V in there too. He supplied allot of the memorabilia for
the author to photo. Steve Petro 1970 Orbit Orange JUDGE http://ultimategto.com/rest01.htm Subject: [GTO] Good experiences with parts supply houses... Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 22:50:39 -0500 From: "iceman" Hello All.... Thought I spout off on my experiences with resto parts companies. I've ordered quite a bit of parts over the last year, and ALL my experiences have been great! I've ordered from Ames, Parts Place, OPG, Paddock, Bethel’s Goat Farm, Precision Pontiac,
American Classic Restoration, Factory Fit, Murals Auto Parts and probably a few others. ALL
have been very professional and helpful. I especially like Ames, I find their parts to be
perfect, and they arrive real quick! Ames invoices look like they were checked and double
checked, so you get exactly what you ordered. (I'm placing another Ames order tomorrow.) I've had my GTO for years, and only started my frame-off 6 months ago. I can't believe how easy
it has been so far! I found a great bodyshop and obtaining parts has been a breeze! Just my .02, but I think most of the resto parts houses are doing a great job! Bill 66 GTO Convert Subject: [GTO] Insurance Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 05:20:37 -0400 (EDT) From: PteeCruiser I have a question regarding insurance. A friend told me if you modify your classic car in any
way, like changing an automatic to a manual transmission, your insurance (mine is Haggerty)
will not insure your car. Anyone know if this is true? Dennis, 66 LeMans Subject: Re: [GTO] Insurance Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:05:25 EDT From: Corpkilr1 B.S. to that statement. Subject: Re: [GTO] Insurance Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:48:20 -0500 From: "Phil Shaffer" I seriously doubt it... Now, I can imagine that they wouldn't insure it as "original", but they
would still insure it. My classic insurance has a hot rod and modified classification, as well
as, an original (and classic and exotic if you want to know what CHROME stands for.) I think I
pay around $52/6 months for my '66 Ventura which is listed as modified because it's blue rather
than gold. Phil Subject: [GTO] Re: (gto) Things to look for? Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:51:01 EDT From: Ice0026 There is a lot of people (some of us are novices either looking or will be looking to buy a car
soon. (me included) I was wondering if some the list members can inform us of sum of the stuff
to look for when your looking at a car to buy. Subject: [GTO] Things to look for? Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 08:16:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "Petro Stephen R.” Run the PHS on the car if it is a Pontiac. Best $35 spent. They will fax you the build sheet
the same day. READ any/all books on the particular model you are looking at purchasing. Talk to people that are involved with the model you are thinking about. I would stray away from the "muscle car" dealers. Allot of times they are OVER priced cars for
UNDER valued cars. Cut out the middle man! Go to car specific events for your future model and look and ask questions. Don't rush into anything. Ask the list any questions you might have. CASH is most useful when haggling over the price. MAKE an offer when the SPOUSE is there and make sure SHE/HE sees the CASH!!!! Steve Petro 1970 Orbit Orange JUDGE http://ultimategto.com/rest01.htm Subject: RE: [GTO] Things to look for? Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 07:35:47 CST From: "The Harper Valley P.T.A." << MAKE an offer when the SPOUSE is there and make sure SHE/HE sees the CASH!!!! >> I think Steve's referring to the seller's spouse. Letting your own spouse know how much you're
planning to spend could be hazardous to your health. ;^) Brad Subject: [GTO] A-Body Interchange Manual on the Web Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:53:30 -0700 From: "Gary L. Travis" Hey all! Found this page on the net today. Seems like it could be useful for us GTO fans too. Not just
for the Ch*vy wingnuts. https://www.angelfire.com/tx/lonestarclassics/abodyinterchange.html It's a GM A-body interchange manual this guy has posted. He's a Ch*v*ll* fan. Gary T. 64 GTO Htp. 75 455 Grand Am Subject: [GTO] GTO parts # listings. Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:56:49 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC For those interested, I put all kinds of part #'s for engines, tranny's, rearends, alternators,
batteries, etc. on our clubs website at
http://www.pontiac.tm/goat/index.htm
Near the top of the page is a what's new section and there you will find a link to
"Pontiac Engines". Goatman Subject: [GTO] Matching number Question Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:40:59 -0700 (PDT) From: John DeFalco Soon the restoration of my 69 GTO Judge will be finished and I would like to begin a search for
a motor that matches my car. What all does this entail and do I have a chance in hell of being
successful. I have no idea what to look for, but with the internet being a useful tool I may
have a chance at finding one.. Or do I ..haha Subject: Re: [GTO] Matching number Question Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:54:11 EDT From: JAYBAKS If the motor isn't in the car or with it, there is probably a reason like it isn't fixable and
was scrapped long ago. Your looking for the one motor that was in it when it was built. You
might ask the previous owner if he knows what happened to it, but if its a resto, it probably
has had several owners and has gone to the Big Indian in the sky. jay Subject: [GTO] Matching number Question Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:04:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Petro Stephen R.” John, I think finding the exact block that was in your actual car are slim to none! You could
find a "correct block" with the correct letter code stamped on the block. That letter code is
located just below where the head mounts on the block in the front. Looking at the front it
would be on the passenger side. The actual numbers number that would match you vins last 6 numbers would be located on a
machined pad that is located on the front face of the block directly to the left (passenger
side) of the crankshaft. BEWARE!!! This pad can be machined down and "re-stamped" to match
"your" car! You can also check the date code on the block. Usually, the block or any other
parts used on a car was "date coded" with in two weeks of the build of the car. I think you
would have a better chance at hitting the LOTTO than finding the actual block!!!! Steve Petro 1970 Orbit Orange JUDGE http://ultimategto.com/rest01.htm Subject: [GTO] Question Questions~! Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:30:19 EDT From: HottRodGTO Hey List, As u all may know by now...I have a 66 Bonneville Convertible.....with a sad not running
301 in it... Well I found a running Pontiac 350 for sale and I’m considering the swap.....Now
....will the 350 bolt up to the trans that the 301 is bolted to or does the 350 have a
different bolt pattern?.....Also,....do I have to change motor mounts?.... I’m lookin 4 an easy
swap..... All I want to do is get my car running..... I’m tired of messin with this 301.....
Also,...if I do this swap is any one lookin 4 a 301 Pontiac... or Olds... I really dunno which
it is anymore,....but if I do this swap I’ll be lookin to get rid of the 301 CHEAP... Not that
a 301 is really wanted by all... But, someone might want it.... Hell I’ll practically give it
away... Well.... PLEASE let me know if the 350 swap will work in my 66 Pontiac Bonneville
Convertible.... Thanx allot! Chris 67 GTO 66 Bonneville Convertible Subject: Re: [GTO] Question Questions! Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:00:30 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << well I found a running Pontiac 350 for sale and I’m considering the swap..... Now.... will
the 350 bolt up to the trans that the 301 is bolted to or does the 350 have a different bolt
pattern?..... Also.... do I have to change motor mounts?... >> Chris, I swapped out a 301 (and yes, it is a Pontiac engine) in a 79 Gran Prix with a 400 and
the 400 bolted right in (400 and 350 are the same bolt pattern wise) with no problems, tranny
and all. The only thing I had to do was cut and lengthen the exhaust since the 301 has a
shorter deck height than the 326-455's. The 350 should bolt right into the Bonny as long as the
350 was not originally designed for a 70 and up Firebird only. Goatman Subject: [GTO] NEED IMMEDIATE GASKET HELP!!!! Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:04:55 EDT From: RAMAIR406 Anyone familiar with "McCord" gaskets?? Or "torquemonster" gaskets? The torquemonster are what PAW offers in their kit and wanna know
if their garbage. I have a line on the McCords for fairly cheap and wanna know if I should drop
the whatever they were called gaskets and get the McCords or are they both crap and I should
get the Felpro’s? Subject: Re: [GTO] NEED IMMEDIATE GASKET HELP!!!! Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:30:56 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Anyone familiar with "McCord" gaskets?? Or "torquemonster" gaskets? The torquemonster are what PAW offers in their kit and wanna
know if their garbage. I have a line on the McCords for fairly cheap and wanna know if I should drop
the whatever they were called gaskets and get the McCords or are they both crap and I should
get the Felpro’s? >> Get the FEL-PRO's. They are the best, hands down. I don't like McCord, although they will serve
the purpose, and have never heard of the TorqueMonster's. I have reused Fel-Pro head gaskets as
much as 4 times on my 12.5:1 428 and never blew one. McCords and most others come off in chunks
and you have a mess to clean up. Fel-Pros come off in one piece. Goatman [will always use Fel-pro] Carter Geeesh, you'd think I owned the damn company! Subject: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:45:32 -0500 From: Sean & Mary Ann Mattingly OK, new topic. What are the "Top 10 restoration mistakes" you guys have made with your GTOs? It would be interesting to make a list of those. Then maybe beginners could learn a little bit
from it. -- === Sean Mattingly, The Ultimate GTO Picture Site Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:12:04 EDT From: Jwroblesk The biggest one had to be mine-buying a car that’s not restorable. Joe Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:20:57 EDT From: ARayman 1. Making the mistake thinking it's just a little rust, and the bodyman can fix it no problem. 2. Thinking that if I buy a cheap car now. It will save me money in the long run. 3. Projects that come with parts cars. The parts you need for the first car are usually worse
on the parts car, and now you have to lug around an extra hulk. 4. (Basket cases- Cars that are completely disassembled with all parts supposedly in plastic
bags, boxes, coffee cans etc. You will spend a fortune finding the little pieces that the old
owner threw away. 5. Cars that are missing major pieces. Expensive to purchase, expensive to ship. 6. Spending money on the engine before spending on the body. At sale time, no one gives a damn
if you spent 8k on the gut of your motor, unless you have time slips to back it up with. 7. Underestimating the cost of parts and labor, and underestimating the cost of your time. 8. Never cheap out on materials/labor, when it is paint time. You can swap motors all day long,
change out the color of an interior, switch to a stick trans etc. All are cheaper and easier
than redoing a good paint job. 9. A frame off usually triples the price on a restoration. 10. Don't expect friends and relatives to help. As a matter of fact, expect them to give you a
bad time until you get that hulk on the road, then they will remind you how long it took. Naturally, this isn't the case all the time!! Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:07:01 EDT From: Sanders66GTO Sean, The top restoration mistake everyone makes is starting a restoration!!!! haha. Prez. Bill Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 18:40:30 -0700 (PDT) From: John DeFalco Restoring a Pontiac which seems to cost 5 times more than restoring anything else... But, what
else is worthy of almost every extra penny I have had for the last 4 years...Goooooo GTO! Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:46:32 EDT From: Vanmor First off, make sure you know the difference between a restoration and a car you are just going
to get running. You know, a creampuff, a daily driver, or a street machine. By the way, what ever happened to the term street machine? Vance 68 HT Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:56:30 -0400 From: Dave Funderburg Speaking of terms, how many remember what the term "fishing car" used to mean in the used car
ads. Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:31:59 EDT From: JosieRand My biggest mistake (to date) has been starting new projects without finishing ones I've already
started. Confucius say "Man who start many deeds rarely finishes any." Jeff Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:34:38 -0700 From: rickgto 1. Fooling yourself into thinking you can build one from scratch THE WAY YOU WANT IT cheaper
than buying a done car and CHANGING it to the way you want it. 2. Ah, maybe should be 1. Anyway, going (and spending) the extra to restore a car to factory
correct down to the last detail. Only to realize that very few know or even care if it's
correct. I mean, whether or not it has Witteck hose clamps and date coded Packard wires rather
than Napa and Accel doesn’t make a difference to most people. If it's meant as a driver,
restore it accordingly. 3. If you're not mechanically inclined, don’t have LOTS of time and patience, or are on a
limited budget, see #1. Monthly payments are allot more forgiving on your budget and well
being. 4. If you have it in mind to make it as fast as it looks, chances are you will destroy how it
looked in a short time. 5. Restore a car simply to turn a profit. Unless it's ultra rare and you buy it right, when
restored, it’s yours to keep when done. (You can get the same feeling as trying to sell a car
you restored by giving the Ralph Nader foundation $3000.00 to help save the Corvair). 6. Getting sold on the idea that "repop" parts are cheaper to use than restoring factory
original. They are cheaper, until someone leans on the car. 7. Doing a frame off when a frame on is the logical choice. 8. Thinking NICE Pontiac parts, or cars, are easy to come by. 9. Painting an assembled car rather than painting it in pieces and assembling it. 10. Last but not least. Using your just restored RA IU 4 speed as a training vehicle for your
15 year old, because that's the only manual trans car you own and want them to learn stick. It
works out to aging 1 year per mile they drive. I did good, once around the block and in the
garage it went.............still young. Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:27:00 EDT From: Kuchila Allowing friends and relatives to help would be one of the mistakes that should be close
to the top of the list. Not only do they Not listen to what you say when your explaining the
procedure, they work on it all day, doing it the way you told them Not to do it. So, you spend
the next 3 days undoing what they done, the next day doing the job right and the next two days
recovering from the hangover. later kuchila Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:46:07 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << 4. (Basket cases- Cars that are completely disassembled with all parts supposedly in plastic
bags, boxes, coffee cans etc. You will spend a fortune finding the little pieces that the old
owner threw away. >> You been peekin' in on my 64 Andre? Didn't know you knew where I lived! Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 01:41:54 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << OK, new topic. What are the "Top 10 restoration mistakes" you guys have made with your
GTOs? >> <<< The biggest one had to be mine-buying a car that’s not restorable. Joe >>> Ah come on Joe, if it's a Goat, IT'S RESTORABLE! Goatman: P.S. sorry for yellin' Subject: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:48:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Petro Stephen R.” Hey Ron, I would say a "frame off" would cost allot more than $300. Trust me! The frame needs to be
smoothed out to get rid of any pits. Same with the underbody metal. I would consider a "frame
off" car is one that is totally detailed (nut and bolt). Don't forget redoing the axle asm.,
trans., control arms, suspension asm., gas tank asm., springs, shocks, motor etc. etc. etc.... Everything detailed cost more any way you look at it. Rather than undercoating the whole
underside. There was a good article in Muscle Car Review or High Performance Pontiac (I can't
remember) showing the detail of doing a proper frame off resto. It was done by Scott Tieman on
Dan Jensen's 1970 Atoll Blue Ram Air IV JUDGE. They show all the detailing that needs to be
done. It was about a three or four page article. I could dig it up and send it to you via
e-mail or regular mail. I have a subscription to both mags and I forgot which one its in. I
don't throw them out, so I will look for you. It was an issue that came out about 4 months ago.
Having a "frame off" car comes the job of more cleaning!!! Believe me!! I use Lemon Pledge on
my frame, inner wheels wells (front), control arms, undercarriage sheet metal, gas tank asm.
and axle asm. It works really good at repelling dust. I wonder when they developed that stuff
that they would ever think people would use it on the bottom of their cars. Call me crazy, but
it works! It doesn't smell bad either. Nothing like mixing the lemon smell with Torco race
fuel! Steve Petro 1970 Orbit Orange JUDGE http://ultimategto.com/rest01.htm Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:51:38 EDT From: THEMUZZ << I still have to disagree Steve. In restoring my GTO, EVERY nut and bolt came off and was
replaced except those holding the body to the frame. Even though, I call my restoration a
frame-on, I still took my whole car apart - doors, entire front clip, trunk lid, quarter panels,
trunk floor...everything! So, if I would have took the frame off my car... What would it have done for me? I could have
BETTER detailed my frame and suspension components (including my rear)... True, but that much
more money? I think not. Don't forget, there is not much cleaning after you sandblast a frame.... P.S., I know what article you mean...I believe I still have to too, but thanks for the offer. Ron >> Then once you guys move the 30 year old gas tank to remove it, it springs a leak in one of the
pinholes in the top! So then you have to replace that, then why not go with the float while
your there, then gasket the ring, then getting the neck soldered on the new tank, then why not
new gas lines, hell why your at it brake lines, and all the hardware that goes with it. Then
you look at the e-brake lines as there frayed and say to yourself well I am here anyway why not,
then the new hardware, yadda yadda yadda, there’s ALWAYS more! Trust me! Damian Damian Muzzi Wilmington, DE 1968 Pontiac GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes? Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:48:01 -0400 From: "Ron Lawrence" I understand what you are saying Damian. The only point I was trying to make was that all that
stuff...can...be done on a frame-on resto too. I replaced my gas tank, sender, some brake and
fuel lines, my front end was rebuilt, converted from manual drums to power disc, redid my rear
brakes, yadda, yadda, yadda... Ron Subject: Comments / Questions on Restoration mistakes (was RE: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes?) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:00:31 -0400 From: "Ron Lawrence" I noticed two things that interested me. Each I didn't realize, and I'm not sure I agree with.
Looking for opinions. 1.) Fact or Fiction: A frame-off is THAT much more expensive then a frame-on restoration? My thoughts: I'm at the tail end of a frame-on restoration of a car that was once a total POS
70 GTO. I spent a COLOSSAL amount of money on this project and couldn't image how taking the
shell off the frame could have cost THAT much more (triple?). I mean, what extra is there to be
done? Sandblast the frame. Paint the frame. Get new body mount bushings.... That's all I can
think of. I'd say about $100 to sandblast the frame, $50 worth of POR-15 (and my own compressor
and paint gun) and $150 for new bushings. Only $300 more... That's a drop in the bucket
compared to the amount of money I spent so far. Any thoughts on this? 2.) Fact or Fiction: Paint the parts off a car first, then assemble it already painted? My thoughts: I'm doing the exact opposite. My body guy suggested to paint things like jams and
other parts off the car that are hard to get to when the car is assembled... Then assemble,
then final paint. I have to say, based on the amount of stuff I nicked up while assembling, I'd
say it's a good idea. Maybe a pro that can put together a GTO in his/her sleep... but for the
average Joe (Ron in this case), you'll nick up stuff... guaranteed. Why nick up finished paint? Any thoughts on this? Ron 70 GTO Subject: Re: Comments / Questions on Restoration mistakes (was RE: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes?) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:07:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Hill << I noticed two things that interested me. Each I didn't realize, and I'm not sure I agree
with. Looking for opinions. 1.) Fact or Fiction: A frame-off is THAT much more expensive then a frame-on restoration? My thoughts: I'm at the tail end of a frame-on restoration of a car that was once a total POS
70 GTO. I spent a COLOSSAL amount of money on this project and couldn't image how taking the
shell off the frame could have cost THAT much more (triple?). I mean, what extra is there to be
done? Sandblast the frame. Paint the frame. Get new body mount bushings.... That's all I can
think of. I'd say about $100 to sandblast the frame, $50 worth of POR-15 (and my own compressor
and paint gun) and $150 for new bushings. Only $300 more... That's a drop in the bucket
compared to the amount of money I spent so far. >> I think either way costs a fortune. It's just that you can make yourself fell better about it
if you convince yourself you would have spent even more if you had done it differently. << 2.) Fact or Fiction: Paint the parts off a car first, then assemble it already painted? My thoughts: I'm doing the exact opposite. My body guy suggested to paint things like jams and
other parts off the car that are hard to get to when the car is assembled... Then assemble,
then final paint. I have to say, based on the amount of stuff I nicked up while assembling, I'd
say it's a good idea. Maybe a pro that can put together a GTO in his/her sleep... but for the
average Joe (Ron in this case), you'll nick up stuff... guaranteed. Why nick up finished paint? >> I paid the bills for a few years doing paint work and the only parts off painting you want to
do is "cutting in" of parts. Meaning painting the parts and places you can't get at once the
car is assembled. Most shops will have a group that paints and a group that does the body work
and assembly. Trust me the body guys could give a S**t if they scratch the parts and the paint
guy has to do some touch up work. I've seen it happen all to often. One of the reasons I got
out of that line of work. ===== Brad '68 Ram Air GTO Subject: Re: Comments / Questions on Restoration mistakes (was RE: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes?) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 17:06:43 -0700 From: rickgto I prefer to paint a resto job in pieces and then assemble simply for the quality of the
finished product. Jamming and edging a job, assembling and then painting leaves too much clean
up work if you want a top notch job. Visible overspray through fender, hood and door seams.
Allot more time and trouble than just being careful during assembly. And yes, I do fit
everything before re-removal for final paint. No surprises. I’m not saying either way is right
or wrong, but there's a world of difference in the end result. Rick Subject: RE: Comments / Questions on Restoration mistakes (was RE: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes?) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:24:44 -0400 From: "Ron Lawrence" I see, thanks for the clarification Rick.... Geee, you must be quite a resto expert. It's
taking me hours and hours to get my sheet metal lined up. I can't image taking it back off and
doing it over again! Ron Subject: Re: Comments / Questions on Restoration mistakes (was RE: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes?) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:33:53 -0700 From: rickgto << I see, thanks for the clarification Rick.... Geee, you must be quite a resto expert.
It's taking me hours and hours to get my sheet metal lined up. I can't image taking it back off
and doing it over again! Ron >> Far from expert. I’ve just done enough of them to know what works the best for me. (IMHO) One
advantage (of many), I have in the GTO resto's is I started collecting/restoring Goats in the
early 70’s. Know the cars inside out. I’ve literally done 60+ "start with a bare frame" GTO's
since. My own and customers. The 69 Judge on Sean's site, Judges lot 8, I have a whopping $7200
in done. Not counting my labor. Only because I do the work and have 2 buildings full and 12
cars for parts. You should be very proud of the car you put together. Oh, the 2nd one is allot
easier. The third is a piece of cake, you can do it in your sleep. It gets ALLOT easier, but no
less aggravating. Rick Subject: Re: Comments / Questions on Restoration mistakes (was RE: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes?) Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:33:56 -0500 From: "Dirk Denzin" << .Oh, the 2nd one is allot easier. The third is a piece of cake, you can do it in your sleep.
It gets ALLOT easier but no less aggravating. Rick >> I can not wait to start # 2, and I know it will be allot easier than # 1. Cause, I will not start with a basket case again!!! Basket cases probably are best left for the
people that can do it all by themselves and also have more time on their hands than they know
what to do with! DIRK Subject: RE: Comments / Questions on Restoration mistakes (was RE: [GTO] Top Ten restoration mistakes?) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 00:12:16 -0500 From: "Avery Murphy" << 2.) Fact or Fiction: Paint the parts off a car first, then assemble it already painted? My thoughts: I'm doing the exact opposite. My body guy suggested to paint things like jams and
other parts off the car that are hard to get to when the car is assembled... Then assemble,
then final paint. I have to say, based on the amount of stuff I nicked up while assembling, I'd
say it's a good idea. Maybe a pro that can put together a GTO in his/her sleep... but for the
average Joe (Ron in this case), you'll nick up stuff... guaranteed. Why nick up finished paint? Any thoughts on this? Ron 70 GTO >> I vote for painting the car complete. You have to consider color on a decision like this. Solid colors, especially black, maybe best
painted in pieces, although I never do it that way. Black always matches. Fancier colors, like
metallics, candies, and pearls on the other hand, nearly have to be painted with the car
assembled (after cutting in the door jambs, trunk jamb, etc.) or they simply won't match. Light
blue metallic just seems to be about the worst, white too. That pearl white that is popular on
Cadillacs these days is just evil. When I worked at a Cadillac dealer I saw an entire car
painted because they couldn't get the fuel door to match any other way. Incidentally, I just cut in all of my jambs this weekend. I'm going with a fancy color so it
was a no brainer, I have to do it this way. Avery 70 GTO h/t Subject: [GTO] #1 restoration mistake? Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 10:10:46 CDT From: "bill odoherty" 1. Under estimating cost. Restoring your first car because you had one in high school which you probably paid 500.00 for
it used. Now to find out that one w/rusted out floor boards, in desperate need of a paint job,
body work, engine rebuild and a new interior will probably cost ya about 7,500.00. This should
be your first clue that this is going to cost ALLOT OF MONEY! bill6t5gto Subject: Re: [GTO] #1 restoration mistake? Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 13:02:22 EDT From: Olgoat7 1. Having a limited budget and assuming your spouse or significant other shares the same
passion for restoring (read putting money into) a car as you do. Jim Subject: Re: [GTO] (NC) Playthings (was Restoration Mistakes) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 16:44:29 EDT From: Duxlane Thanks to all, the cautions and advice from the collective experiences of listers is priceless.
(Which it seems is akin to the resources it takes to pursue this hobby.) Another perspective: Know anybody with horses?... Big bucks. Golf... my father in -law has a
$500 driver and I don't have wheels. His CC membership is a years wages. I could by a GTO for
the cost of the cart. Boats....sailing, or 90 mph open water powerboat. Hunting... guided
trips for elk, caribou, bear, etc. Cottage on the lake or in the mountains....you get the idea. What doesn't cost more than you think it should theses days? My justification for enjoyment...
You are dead a long time! Rich (Waxing philosophically ...still without a 64 GTO ) Subject: [GTO] restoration costs Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 11:54:36 EDT From: ARayman How much for a complete interior (hardtop only) $1000-$1200 excluding new dashpad, seatbelts,
steering wheel, console, window cranks, painting column etc. How much for a show room paint job and all required body work on a car that it SHOULD be done
to... i.e. not a rust bucket. $3000-6000 depending on your idea of showroom. This is not counting polishing stainless,
polishing aluminum, new door handles, weatherstripping, replating bumpers, redoing wheel well
trim, wheel well insides etc. I have seen cheaper paint jobs look good, but if you mean really good, then that’s a whole
different story. Paint and materials will cost $1000 or better by themselves. Couple guys on the list I know will spend $8000 and up for a paint job. How much to rebuild a Pontiac 400 without making it a racecar. The standard rebuild kit is about $600-800 excluding cam and some other misc.., then with
machine work, time spent to restore visible parts, carb kit, replate and rebuild, various new
chrome items (valve covers, air cleaner lid), belts, hoses, lines, correct wires, holders,
booster etc., motor removal and disassembly, machine work, reassembly, motor mounts, motor
replacement, tuning etc. Figure another $3000-$4000. How much to redo a trans $600-$1000 depending on auto or standard. Subject: RE: [GTO] restoration costs Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:06:38 -0400 From: "Ron Lawrence" I guess this all depends if we are talking about fixing existing stuff or replacing everything.
If replacing everything - then more than $1000 to $1200 for an interior IMO. I spent more than
that. I'm planning to spend around $3000 to $3500 on my paint job. That's renting a spray booth and
having a top notch body guy do it on the side for $25/hour. Take it to a real shop and the
price goes up. Oh, and that price is with ALL the body work done. Depending on how much body
work a car needs the price can get a lot higher. I agree with the engine price. Ron Subject: Re: [GTO] restoration costs Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:32:32 EDT From: CLOZEM I agree with the 3K-4K range for the motor and about $500.00 for the transmission. That is what
I am spending now. Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Scott 67 GTO Conv. Subject: Re: [GTO] restoration costs Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:14:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Konen Tom I agree with Ron 14 g's is low. I’m running thru a 71-T37 frame off, rolling chassis done.
Which I did all myself, except engine block work sits at least 14 grand. Know the body, I can't
weld for sh-- so a guy comes over to my house, welds 10 hours for $500. Know leading priming
paint etc. etc. If I’m lucky another 5 grand, which I will do all labor myself. Face it, you
can’t do anything on any old car, without shelling out $500 at a pop. And 14 grand is only 28
pops. Subject: Re: [GTO] restoration costs Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:28:18 EDT From: R92Z28 I agree with Andre. He's definitely in the ball park as far as what I'm spending on my 66. I
started keeping track at first, but that got too depressing. A Goat friend of mine and I agree.
If you need it(parts, work, etc.), you gotta spend the $$. Raymon 66 GTO HT 92 25th Ann Z-28 Subject: Re: [GTO] restoration costs Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:23:52 EDT From: Goats3 So, you take your $2500.00 rustbucket GTO and let's say you have a good portion of the work
farmed out, and you drop another 10 grand into it. You still have a car that turns heads, that
people remember owning, that not everyone else can own, that you can drive with envy. I say
it's worth every penny, even if there's no hope to recover your investment. That's also why I couldn't part out and sell parts off of GTO’s. I would want to keep EVERY GTO
I came across, even the hopeless ones. Kenny L Subject: Re: [GTO] restoration costs Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:36:18 -0500 From: "Dirk Denzin" << How much for a complete interior (hardtop only) $1000-$1200 excluding new dashpad, seatbelts,
steering wheel, console, window cranks, painting column etc. >> I would say that, that is on the low side, double it easy. << How much for a show room paint job and all required body work on a car that it SHOULD be
done to... i.e. not a rust bucket. $3000-6000 depending on your idea of showroom. This is not counting polishing stainless,
polishing aluminum, new door handles, weatherstripping, replating bumpers, redoing wheel well
trim, wheel well insides etc. I have seen cheaper paint jobs look good, but if you mean really good, then that’s a whole
different story. Paint and materials will cost $1000 or better by themselves. Couple guys on the list I know will spend $8000 and up for a paint job. >> I spent almost 8K for my paint job. The guy does excellent metal work, car is straight as a
arrow. The rear had been hit, it did not look bad because the trunk lid was not on it, when the
lid was on and down, there was a 1 1/2 in gap between the side of the trunk and the top of the
rear 1/4! Ouch!! It will cost you less if you are starting with a straight dent free rust free
car (how many of those you find laying around?). Dirk Subject: Re: [GTO] restoration costs Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:50:52 -0500 From: "Dirk Denzin" I agree! Even if you sink 20K in to it, it does not loose value like a new car that you just paid 20K
for! Dirk Subject: Re: [GTO] restoration costs Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:12:48 EDT From: THEMUZZ << So, you take your $2500.00 rustbucket GTO and let's say you have a good portion of the work
farmed out, and you drop another 10 grand into it. You still have a car that turns heads, that
people remember owning, that not everyone else can own, that you can drive with envy. I say
it's worth every penny, even if there's no hope to recover your investment. That's also why I couldn't part out and sell parts off of GTO’s. I would want to keep EVERY
GTO I came across, even the hopeless ones. Kenny L >> Oh man, your starting to sound like me, except I also buy all the parts I come across as well!
Just in case! Damian Muzzi Wilmington, DE 1968 Pontiac GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] 70 gto judge 455HO question Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 14:23:06 EDT From: A6464NUT << They were a lot different from the 71-72 455's, they had quite a bit more compression in 70.
Not much more for the name though. I'm happy with mine. Should be rolling in a few weeks. For
those wondering about costs. Frame off $25k and still running up the numbers. I figure it will
be an easy 5 to 7 more. I don't care how much it will be worth, it won't be for sale. And it's
a lot more car than a Lexus or whatever cars the yuppies think will turn heads. This one
deserved all the attention. And it was rust free (just desert sunbaked) not much left of the
interior. Lots of little scrapes and dents. And quite a few missing misc. parts. (that’s where
it gets expensive). But I cans see the light at the end of the tunnel. The top ten stuff is all
true. Jay >> Wow! Where does all the money go? A good friend of mine did a complete frame off on a 66 GTO
Convertible. New top, new interior, rebuilt engine, added Tri power. All new bolts and lines,
wiring. The car is perfect. $9,000 for the car and $14,000 for the restoration. Why are your
and other restorations costing so much more? Harry in St. Louis Subject: Re: [GTO] 70 gto judge 455HO question Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 15:46:45 -0700 From: "David L. Satterwhite" Harry, I am preparing to do my own 69 as a frame off. I calculate 9000.00 for parts and painting, and
the rest will be my own labor. That is why I can not understand 20 grand. My goal is to find
out if there is information that I may have missed in my calculations.... What do you think??? David Subject: Re: [GTO] 70 gto judge 455HO question Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 15:36:28 -0500 From: "Phil Shaffer" How picky are you going to be on parts? I don't know how the one job for $25k was done, but I
know if you search the globe for NOS pieces for everything then it will cost you a fortune. I personally do things a bit cheaper, but mine really couldn't be called a restoration in most
cases. My '66 Tempest for example: $500 Original purchase of 35,100 mile car. $150 Rough guess on sheet metal for 3 lower patches. $850 Paint $380 Tires $110 Professional Repair of two bad spots on the seats. $300 Brakes (wheel cyls., lines, hoses, shoes). $250 Misc Interior & Exterior chrome. $100 Repro hood insulation and floor mat (guess at price). $ 20 Oil pan gasket (guess at price). $180 New windshield and rear resealing. ------ $2,840 and it's sitting in the parking lot outside (I'm at work). Now, with the exception of the tires, seats, and glass. I did the labor on everything. I'm sure
paying someone to do it would easily triple that number, but I was willing to accept what the
repro houses could get me or what I could get through the net. Honestly, there is nothing quite like being able to say: "Yeah, I did that."(With the possible
exception of certain incidents of putting a in-ground lift in, or building a 455 with a 3 leg
engine stand). Phil Subject: RE: [GTO] 70 gto judge 455HO question Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:34:31 -0400 From: "Ron Lawrence" I'll tell ya why. The car cost $9000 to start. That tells me it was a decent car. Probably rust
-free, straight sheet metal, decent chrome and interior, and complete. I can only image how
much easier (and cheaper) it would be to restore a car worth 9k over a car worth practically
nothing (like my car when I started). As I said on this list before, I'm doing all the work on
my car except things that require filling, banging, or welding... and I'm sure I have over 25k
into my car. Those of you who can do GOOD body work have a huge advantage. Yeah, I can to
decide work... but don't trust myself working on important things like fenders and quarters. I
have several thousand dollars in body work alone. I guess it just all depends on how you
approach things... Subject: Re: [GTO] 70 gto judge 455HO question Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:50:47 -0500 From: "Dirk Denzin" I agree, if start with a decent driving car its easy. My car was dented, lightly rusted, and
full of little dings. The rest of it was in baskets etc. etc. I violated everyone of the ten
rules! And I have paid for it! 1 The body work when done was flawless and the paint is
beautiful. I could of got a paint job for less than the 8K I spent, but it would show. Also,
every part on the car is been rebuilt or replaced. A engine rebuild is 3-4 easy, more if you
want "extra's". I rebuilt the rearend myself and that was over 1500 for parts alone. You and I
could restore the same car and come up with 10K different in cost depending on how we do things
and how you want it. 25K into a resto is not to bad. Dirk Subject: Re: [GTO] 70 gto judge 455HO question Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 01:29:09 EDT From: JAYBAKS It must be inflation. Good parts are expensive, this one was great metal. Trans needing complete redo, engine block, crank, heads and pistons in the trunk, everything
else missing whole interior sun baked, glass pitted, AC stripped from car for drag racing. Not
much else left from engine compartment. Never did get a good parts car. I should have, and
still probably need one. But, it still had a perfect set of original exhaust tips on it. Add to
that not much time to do work myself other than hunting down the parts and mechanicals. Add a
very very picky body man that studied the overspray patterns and gave me a very perfect job
(not complaining about that cost) and you have a very expensive, but well worth the money job.
It will take a few years to get everything right, but I will have the time to make it perfect.
And lots more to enjoy it. Dash and all interior replaced. Jay Subject: Re: [GTO] 70 gto judge 455HO question[ 3 leg engine stand] Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:00:53 EDT From: Kuchila May I recommend a "rule of thumb" here on the three legged engine stands. They work very well if you take this "rule of thumb" to heart and Obey it faithfully. Rule of Thumb "When using a three legged engine stand for engine rebuilding, DO NOT stand in its way if it
decides it wants to lay down and take a nap." kuchila 66 & 67 GTO's Subject: Re: [GTO] Engine stand bolts??? Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 15:52:35 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << I need a quick response if you would please (group). I am getting ready to mount an engine on a stand and I need to know what size bolts I need to
mount the engine. These are the bolts that go through the stand into the back of the engine. As always, your help is greatly appreciated. David >> David, Those bolts are 3/8 x 16. Get them long enough to go into the engine about 1/2 inch. Goatman Subject: [GTO] Judge or Jury Digest Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 13:45:35 GMT From: "Pete Judge" The Canadian Judge was built as all the other Judges, but in Oshawa Ontario plant, they
like other Judges had the RA III or IV put into them. The Jury was like you said a LeMans but had a dealer option put on them at the dealers,
but the only dealer I know of that did it was in Calgary Alberta. Sean has a picture of it on
his web site and apparently there is a guy in Calgary restoring one. Pete 70 Judge << if I recall the Canadian version of the Judge was some dealership taking a 350 LeMans
putting a bigger Chevy motor in it and some decals that looked like the Judge decals only
instead of saying the "Judge" it said the "Jury" >> <<< That was another car I was looking for (the Jury)! I haven't ever seen one of these but I
wanted to purchase one! I am looking for a 68 I would guess! Damian Muzzi Wilmington, DE 1968 Pontiac GTO >>> Subject: Re: [GTO] Judge or Jury Digest Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 09:14:31 -0700 From: Donald Mckay The Jury was a dealer option and there was only one dealer and that was Stampede Pontiac in
Calgary. They produced 25 only and there is one in Qualicum Beach, BC with the original owner
John Beal, his is a four speed car. There was also a kid in Vancouver that had one, but I lost
touch with him. He had ideas about restoring it, but not to stock. Pete Judge wrote: << The Canadian Judge was built as all the other Judges but in Oshawa Ontario plant, they
like other Judges had the RA III or IV put into them. The Jury was like you said a LeMans but had a dealer option put on them at the dealers,
but the only dealer I know of that did it was in Calgary Alberta. Sean has a picture of it on
his web site and apparently there is a guy in Calgary restoring one. Pete 70 Judge >> Subject: [GTO] R&R engine help Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 02:31:29 EDT From: RAMAIR406 OK I’m R&R-ing my motor next week. This will be my first one done mostly by myself. Could
someone please give me the most logical order in which bolts to remove and components to take
off. Exhaust is not a factor, because it has manifolds right now and I’m puttin in headers with
the new motor. Now I know on these motors there’s not much to it, but I wanna jump right in
with some kinda order in which to do things. I will have access to a lift and air tools while
doing this, so it should be rather easy. My order would probably be: 1. Radiator and trans.
lines. 2. Power steering assembly off to the side somewhere. 3. Probably go under and take out
starter. 4. Then converter and bellhousing bolts. 5. Zap off manifold bolts, probably break
them, but it doesn’t matter. 6. Probably mount bolts (will the motor fall if I undo these? Or
should I wait up top when I have the picker hooked up??) 7. Yank it out. Am I missing anything?
??? Anyone care to change up the order or add something I missed??? tanks allot -- scott Subject: Re: [GTO] R&R engine help Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 03:55:33 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << OK I’m R&R-ing my motor next week. This will be my first one done mostly by myself. Could
someone please give me the most logical order in which bolts to remove and components to take
off. Exhaust is not a factor, because it has manifolds right now and I’m puttin in headers with
the new motor. Now I know on these motors, there’s not much to it, but I wanna jump right in
with some kinda order in which to do things. I will have access to a lift and air tools while
doing this, so it should be rather easy. My order would probably be: 1. Radiator and trans
lines. 2. Power steering assembly off to the side somewhere. 3. Probably go under and take out
starter. 4. Then converter and bellhousing bolts. 5. Zap off manifold bolts, probably break
them, but it doesn’t matter. 6. Probably mount bolts (will the motor fall if I undo these? >> NO! << or should I wait up top when I have the picker hooked up??) >> I undo them last thing then yank engine and tranny together. Install engine with tranny on it.
Your asking for a nightmare if you leave the tranny in the car. Find a driveshaft yoke to stick
in the tranny when you pull the driveshaft. Since your going to headers, leave the oil filter
mount off until the engine is in. It will get in the way of the headers. Do not bolt headers to
engine first, it will not go in. Lay the headers down in the chassis and maybe wire the back end
of them up so they sit level. Keep checking that they are not binding up when dropping the
engine in. You will need at least 1 more person to help you guide it in, 2 would be better. 1
on each side of the engine, guiding it, and 1 to lower the hoist[a very steady hand is required
here]. Once the engine is almost in place, stick a floor jack under the rear of the tranny and
level it out then the engine should drop in pretty easy. The problem with leaving the tranny in is that you usually have to have the engine setting in
it's mounts before it will line up with the bellhousing. But, you can’t get the engine into the
mounts without it being mated up to the bellhousing. Kind of a catch 22. It can be done, but it
is a huge pain in the ass! Much easier to R&R the engine and tranny together. Don't forget the fuel lines and ground straps hidden on the back side of the heads! Have fun!
;~) 7. yank it out. << am I missing anything???????? Anyone care to change up the order or add something I missed??
? tanks allot -- scott >> That should pretty well do it. Did we forget anything anyone? Goatman Subject: [GTO] Transmission has 6 bolts Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:31:55 -0500 From: "Chris Bilich" (and bent bolts are hard to remove :) Yes, I pulled the upper 4 bolts and proceeded to massacre the engine/ transmission mating faces
until they bled. My friend and I wondered for 2 hours, breaking two crowbars off in between the
engine and tranny, screaming out profanities, and slapping the can of Carb cleaner 100 feet
into the air in shear frustration. We finally separated them by 3/4", still wondering why the
bottom end was "stuck together like hell!!" Little did we know that two little bolts were
causing us heartburn. Like I said, bent bolts are hard to remove. Chris Subject: Re: [GTO] Transmission has 6 bolts Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 23:06:52 EDT From: Kuchila Chris, Ain’t this hobby of ours fun, relaxin, an best of all, just bout the most exhilarating time
of our lives? roflmao. (yep, them bent ones can be a pain at times). kuchila Subject: [GTO] Transmission has 6 bolts Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 19:11:09 -0700 From: "Gary L. Travis" Chris, Most of us have all been there before. I went through a fun time changing the clutch in my '64.
Had done everything. Resurfaced flywheel, new pilot bushing, new throwout bearing. Made sure
disc was right direction, torqued bolts to pressure plate, put on bellhousing, aligned clutch.
Went to put in trans. Everything seemed fine. Going right in, so I thought. Got down to the
last 3/4-1". It wouldn't budge. Pulled trans back out, thinking I had knocked clutch plate out
of alignment. Alignment tool slipped right on in. Tried again. Same thing. Before long, and
many cuss words, tossed wrenches, and sore arms, it still wasn't in. I elected to have a friend
who runs a garage to come over and try. A week later he made it to my place. He had the same
results. So we even tried emery clothing the end of the input shaft on the trans., thinking
there might be a burr hanging us up. Nope!! Saturday came, and my new girlfriend came over.
Puzzled she asked why the clutch wasn't done on the Goat. I related to her what had been going
on. She replied, "Let me try." After telling her that if three experienced mechanics couldn't
do it, I was sure she wasn't gonna be able too. But, if she wanted to, have at it. She put her
coveralls on, crawled onto the creeper and slid under the car. She pulled the trans. back on
the alignment pins about an inch or so. Then she took a look at both sides, lifted up on the
body of the trans. and slid it right on in. Needless to say my Jaw dropped, and I exclaimed
"Well I'll be a SOB!!" She turned to me and told me all it needed was a woman’s touch. Gary T. 64 GTO Htp. 75 455 Grand Am Subject: Re: [GTO] Transmission has 6 bolts Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:36:55 -0500 From: "Chris Bilich" Yessir! It was my dad, looking innocently at the remaining 2 bolts, after I YELLED that we'd
checked for all the bolts and found none. DOH! Point: After hours of fun in the sun, on the driveway, or wherever you are....it's always nice
to have a fresh pair of eyes. Keep 'em rollin!, Chris Subject: Re: [GTO] Transmission has 6 bolts[clutch alignment problems] Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:47:02 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Most of us have all been there before. I went through a fun time changing the clutch in my
'64. Had done everything. Resurfaced flywheel, new pilot bushing, new throwout bearing. Made
sure disc was right direction, torqued bolts to pressure plate, put on bellhousing, aligned
clutch. Went to put in trans. Everything seemed fine. Going right in, so I thought. Got down to
the last 3/4-1". It wouldn't budge. Pulled trans back out, thinking I had knocked clutch plate
out of alignment. Alignment tool slipped right on in. Tried again. Same thing. Before long, and
many cuss words, tossed wrenches, and sore arms, it still wasn't in. I elected to have a friend
who runs a garage to come over and try. A week later he made it to my place. He had the same
results. So, we even tried emery clothing the end of the input shaft on the trans., thinking
there might be a burr hanging us up. Nope!! >> Gary, been there many times myself. For future reference, when the trans won't go that last
inch, hook up the clutch linkage and have someone step on the clutch pedal as you push the
tranny in. Works every time! Learned that the hard way. Goatman Subject: [GTO] Transmission has 6 bolts NOW WAIT A MINUTE..... Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 10:37:15 -0700 From: "Gary L. Travis" We used to cook mostly together. She got to drive the Goat all weekend. She herself had a 65
SS Impala. We didn't stay together. But, we still remain friends. And, no she only has two
brothers, plus she is married now. I met her going to Jr. College. She left a note on the
windshield of the GTO. She as well, helped introduce me to my current girlfriend. Gary T. 64 GTO Htp. 75 455 Grand Am CharlesB wrote: << ...you got your WHAT to do WHAT? Now aside from the obvious question - like does she have any available sisters & where do I go
to meet someone like that? ('cause I must be hangin out in all the wrong places...) - you're
gonna tell me she took it upon herself to help you let alone be interested in this kind of
hobby like work in the first place? Why I'd be tickled to death just to find someone who'd be
interested in helping me hold a wrench during a tune up let alone take a pro-active stance when
diagnosing a mechanical related problem. Especially engine/trans-wise. If that was me I'd cook
(yes, COOK - not take her out) her anything at all she'd like for dinner after that : ) (Is
my envy for you showing through yet?) heh heh. CB >> Subject: Re: [GTO] Transmission has 6 bolts NOW WAIT A MINUTE..... Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:45:54 EDT From: Kuchila Gary, sounds like your g/f an my ol girl are related. Mine not only holds them wrenches, she’s
constantly running back and forth to find the right ones. Furthermore, if I am under the car so
is she. To tell the truth, I've got to get on her about being in the way, but I sure don’t
complain too much, she does come in handy at times. CB, before you ask, yes, mine Does have an
available sister. roflmao. Matter of fact, there’s two. kuchila PS, Want to start a fight? Ask my ol girl if either of the GTO's are for sale. Fights on. Subject: [GTO] It runs It moves!! Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:17:52 -0500 From: "Dirk" I finally got tires and rims on all 4 today! Went for a ride up and down the driveway with the
wife!! Man am I fired up!! This thing is the beast!! I have some clunking in the drive line
(maybe exhaust) that I need to check. And I could not get it into 1st (will have to look at
adjusting linkage). But it drives!! Also, need more tuning on engine. I thinks that it may have more oomph than I
expected. I have rev. limiter set at 3500 for now till I get everything going good and broken
in, but wow does this thing have torque!! I had 1 PCV valve in one of the valve covers and a
breather in the other. Never thought about it much, but that was some of the problems I had in
a smooth idle. After all the talk here a week or so ago about 2 PCV's I did the same. Changed
the breather to a PCV and now I have 2 PCV's and no breather. Car idles better already. Wish I
could work on it today, but I have to go to a wedding. Tomorrow!! I have to take it in Monday
for a alignment job. And then its up to the body shop for touch ups and panel tweaks. Then Its
drive and tune time!! Just had to share the excitement! Dirk Subject: Re: [GTO] It runs It moves!![DFI] Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 08:21:14 -0500 From: "Dirk" Direct Fuel Injection, 1 injector in each runner of a modified Torker II intake squirting gas
at the valves. All tuning is done via a laptop computer. I can make adjustment to get right
fuel air ratio, timing, etc. etc. No Carb just a large 870 CFM 2 barrel throttle body (its
purple too, need to change that over the winter). If you want to see some pictures I can email
you some. Dirk Subject: Re: [GTO] It runs It moves!![DFI] Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 21:26:29 -0500 From: "Dirk" I sent a bunch of pictures of the engine to Tailpipe tonight. If anybody wants to see any more
detail, let me know of what and I will send it. I bought the system (injectors, TB, wiring harness, fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel rails,
computer, software, adding fittings to my modified Torker for the Injectors, all sensors, Accel
300+ ignition box and a spark plug wires) from Rance Baxter (he has a web site) for around
3300.00. You can buy the parts pretty complete from Accel without his markup, but I went
through him for the technical help which he does not charge for if you buy the system. Believe me, you'll be glad for his help. The system is basically for a LT1 Chevy. Modified to
fit anything else. I had to modify a Pontiac HEI to fit a Chevrolet 7 pin module (this is used for computer
control of timing). The dist. has no vac. or cent. advance. I also had to buy all the fuelline
fittings. It is allot more work to get it running good than a carb, but once its running it should get
decent gas mileage, start easier and be easier to modify for different application. Example
might be a cruising program where you could lean out the fuel ratio for max. gas mileage, a
program for max. performance etc. etc. I spent allot of time getting this thing to where it is now, and if I think about it. I am sure
I can give you more detail if anybody wants some. This has been over a 2 1/2 year project so
far. There has been times that I wish I would of just put on a 4 barrel, but now as its up and
running. I'm glad I did it the way I did. The only thing I would do differently, would be the
engine, would not be built up as much and I would change some other unrelated things. Dirk Subject: [GTO] How to show a GTO? Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 23:05:42 EDT From: A6464NUT Does anyone know of a good reference on how to prepare a GTO for shows? I would like
information on rules, classes, etc. Thanks, Harry Subject: Re: [GTO] How to show a GTO? Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 01:00:22 EDT From: Fa627 << Does anyone know of a good reference on how to prepare a GTO for shows? I would like
information on rules, classes, etc. Harry, >> One thing I've learned is if you're going to get grouped in a particular class and you're
trying to win, try to set up for that class. It's hard to rate cars agreeably if there all
kinds of different things going on. For example, if there is a modified class, and a car that
doesn't quite qualify for the stock class, it will probably be too whimpy for the modified's.
And if you talk them into letting you enter the stock class, it probably won't be stock enough
to win anybody's vote there. Or you can just do whatever you want, enter modified, and just be
happy to have another great Goat there. 3M's mist detailer is a very good product too. Lou 66 HT Subject: Re: Interchange Parts Address Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:15:08 -0700 From: "Marty" Hi Gary, Thanks for the interchange info. I found what I needed. 66-67 Rear A-Body windows will
interchange between Chevy, Buick & Olds. Pontiac however, uses their own unique window, damn
it! Thanks again, Talk to you later bud, Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary L. Travis" To: "Marty" Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 1:15 AM Subject: Re: Interchange Parts Address Hi Marty, Here's the link. Some of his files are not completed as yet, Hope this helps. https://www.angelfire.com/tx/lonestarclassics/abodyinterchange.html Your Bud, Gary Marty wrote: Hi Gary, Dean said you knew of a site to do an interchange search for rear window moldings between
66-67 GTO & Chevelle. Can you please send me the link. Thanks, Marty Subject: [GTO] Parts Resource Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 15:55:01 EDT From: Green68gto I found a guy today in San Jose, CA that might have some stuff a few of you are looking for. He
said he tries to specialize in options and parts that aren't in reproduction. This includes
consoles, 8 tracks, trim, chrome, body parts, etc. I can't vouch for the quality of his parts, since I haven't received mine yet, but he might be
worth checking out for those hard to find parts. Here's his info: Andy Bonett 408-287-4711 andy.b@bombsight.zzn.com Subject: RE: [GTO] Top Ten Muscle Cars Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 13:37:58 -0400 From: "Collingwood, Mike" Dennis: You can call in an order at 888-423-1212 and order item # AAE-17826 - A&E Top 10:
Muscle Cars for $ 19.95 or you can order online at
http://store.aetv.com/cgibin/ae.storefront/O/ext/outsideframe/ut/32/product/17409 Wow - that was a long one. Mike Collingwood Subject: [GTO] GTO Movie sighting Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 00:31:21 EDT From: THEMUZZ My friend was watching The Hot Network the other night and gave me a call, he told me that
there was either a 66 or 67 GTO in it. The movie was called "Hot Bods & Tail Pipe 8." This was
a porn movie guys and girls, so don't just walk into the neighborhood movie retail place and
ask the 16 year old behind the counter for it. lol! Damian Muzzi Wilmington, DE 1968 Pontiac GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 06:23:01 -0500 (CDT) One of the real dangers of nitrous is a new study done by some do-gooder environmental group
whose findings indicate that nitrous oxide is 300 times worse than hydrocarbons when it comes
to global warming....seems we've been trying to reduce the wrong gas! I know this will have
implications for the gearhead crowd! ALF Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 09:56:57 -0400 Not to mention the ADA. It's not going to be near as much fun going to the dentist anymore. Rick M. 66 GTO Tri-power/4spd 73 GP Model J http://www.goatsgarage.com Classic GTO Roadtests, "How To" Articles, Magazine Ads, GTO Games, GTO Wallpaper/Screensaver,
My Cars and More! Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 07:41:59 -0400 (EDT) I think global warming is coming from the hot air the environmental groups and politicians keep
blowing. ----Steve Stephen Amadei Dandy.net CTO Atlantic City, NJ Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:20:20 -0700 Dear Group, We must be careful when speaking about dangers to the environment. The environmentalist tend to
be extremist when speaking about the world we live in. There are truths to some of what they
say. And of course there is misleading information that harms everyone. I believe that it is
important for us to gather a greater understanding of what is harmful, and what is not before
we jump to any conclusions. If my 69 GTO harms the people around me, then take it away. I do
not believe this is the case, but if it were, then I have a responsibility to everyone not to
drive it. Like I said, I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS IS THE CASE. David Satterwhite Happy owner of 2 69 GTO's Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 11:29:44 EDT I read somewhere that the EPA admitted that the catalytic converters that have been put on cars
for the past 25 years, may not help global warming, but may actually make an increase in gasses
they are now finding to be "the problem". I cant remember the source so it is questionable
whether it was fact or rumor, but it makes me question new studies on the subject. If the
catalytic converters of the past 25 years actually worsened global warming, maybe its a good
indicator that extensive studying should be made before enacting laws based on the findings of
said studies. But that’s just my opinion. -Jeff 79 T/A 73 T/A 86 Bronco 77 Vette (And one day one of them will run) Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 10:58:13 -0500 I heard a similar story - more related to non functioning - partially plugged - or deteriorating
converters emit harmful gases - article I read also stated that as designed and properly
functioning - no hazards emitted mike Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 13:57:26 EDT It is quite possible that that is what the blurb I read was referring to. Though I remember it
also talking about a new type of converter being made..... Jeff Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:24:03 EDT << Great summary. Thanks for taking the time Joey. Ron >> Ron I am just glad I finally have a little time....LOL Joey Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:28:10 EDT << One of the real dangers of nitrous is a new study done by some do-gooder environmental group
whose findings indicate that nitrous oxide is 300 times worse than hydrocarbons when it comes
to global warming....seems we've been trying to reduce the wrong gas! I know this will have
implications for the gearhead crowd! ALF >> OH, but it's fine for the medical field to use it! Just keep it away from the gearheads. Do-goody-gooders, who needs 'em? Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 01:30:47 EDT << I think global warming is coming from the hot air the environmental groups and politicians
keep blowing. ----Steve Stephen Amadei Dandy.net CTO Atlantic City, NJ >> I think you've got something there, Steve. Good one! Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:25:38 EDT David, And I'm sure that there are quite a few environmentalists out there that would say that your,
(our), cars is extremely dangerous to the people and environment, not that I believe them, mind
you, just that they're out there somewhere. kuchila Subject: Re: [Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous] Date: 18 Sep 00 08:24:01 PDT From: Scott Holten I've also read that there is a hundred times (maybe thousands) more Ozone depletion caused
"Naturally" from the Oceans than from automobiles... so that must be why the oil companies get
credits from crushing older cars... because the Oceans are already such a wasteland and will
SOON be the reason for our demise!? Scott (10 mpg or less) :^) Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous NC (environment) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:43:32 EDT << There are truths to some of what they say. And of course there is misleading information that
harms everyone. I believe that it is important for us to gather a greater understanding of what
is harmful, and what is not before we jump to any conclusions. >> I agree w/Dave, we as humans have been raping this planet since before the industrial
revolution. And it is only getting worst. So, we should all do our little part to make it better.
It's bad now, but imagine what it will be like when our great grand children will be growing up.
Just take what these extremists say w/a grain of salt, but realize there is some truth to what
they say. Joey Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous NC (environment) Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:51:34 -0500 I do not believe anything they say, they are know liars and will continue to lie to scare
others to do as they see fit. I remember back in H.S. during the the gas shortages (mid '70's).
We were told that we would run out of gas in the next 10-15 years, did not happen. I could go
on but why bother. Somethings are better now than ever before, some worse, that's change and it always goes on,
can not stop it. I will settle for the tiny amount of pollution that cars put out for the
benefits that they give society. Ever think how much pollution is kicked out when a volcano
erupts? Mother nature is one of the worst polluters, (maybe Al Gore will get a catalytic
converter put on all the volcano's in the world to reduce this terrible source of pollution!!!).
But, we do not hear about that, only what us evil humans do!! Dirk Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous NC (environment) Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 18:47:30 EDT << I will settle for the tiny amount of pollution that cars put out for the benefits that they
give society. Ever think how much pollution is kicked out when a volcano erupts? Mother nature
is one of the worst polluters, (maybe Al Gore will get a catalytic converter put on all the
volcano's in the world to reduce this terrible source of pollution!!!). But, we do not hear
about that, only what us evil humans do!! Dirk >> Dirk I live in Massachusetts, and if your a pregnant woman and eat fresh water fish from here,
there is a good chance your child will have birth defects. Not to mention how many bodies of
water in this country alone no longer can sustain life OF ANY KIND. You must live somewhere in
the middle of the country where you haven't seen the effects yet. Come to Boston, Las Angeles
or New York, you can actually TASTE the air, and it doesn't taste volcanic! Please next time you see a Native American, repeat what your saying in your message and ask
his opinion on the subject. Sorry I really don't enjoy going off like this, but that email was simply too ignorant too
leave alone. We (humans) are a plague of this planet, and have done more harm than we can
possibly imagine. Although I will agree "tree huggers" are a little extreme, but they are closer to the truth than
we really want to believe. Joey Subject: Re: [GTO] Dangers of nitrous NC (environment) Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2000 01:22:09 EDT I am not sure how my email on "Dangers of NOS" turned into an environmental issue, so lets just
end it now. I even think it's against the list rules. I didn't start it so don't point the
finger this way, but I did respond twice, which was probably 2 times too many, sorry. BTW: That was sorry to the list not to the people who don't think we have SERIOUS
environmental problems. PS: When did we start responding to "please remove me from this list". I clicked on one by
mistake, and it seems someone pissed some people off. I guess even the stupid stuff can have
some entertainment value. Joey Subject: Re: [GTO] Minimum Nitrous requirements[n2o and my 428] Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 22:36:17 EDT << Basically, Pontiac bottom ends are a lot stronger than we give them credit for. I wouldn't
hesitate to run 125 horse nitrous kit on a stock bottom end. If your mixture is not too lean
and you don't run it for extended periods of time you should be just fine. Oh jeesh, I'm
babbling again! Goatman >> <<< After this email all I need to say is DITTO!!! Also NOS does a lot LESS wear when used
below 70 mph, in top gears the pressure builds faster, most NOS problems happen in the 3rd gear
pull at the track. Joey >>> See, I learn something new everyday! Glad to see you back Joey. How's the parts biz doing? Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Minimum Nitrous requirements[n2o and my 428] Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 18:22:44 EDT << See, I learn something new everyday! Glad to see you back Joey. How's the parts biz doing? Goatman >> Going OK. Just building packages and heads mostly right now to get some recognition. We are
also getting good #'s w/Edelbrock heads now and still keeping the port size small for velocity
and throttle response. Joey Subject: [GTO] vin tags Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 09:45:57 EDT Hi Folks, I need a little direction here. I bought a new body for the Goat and will have to
swap VIN tags. Any way to do this so it looks factory? Is it legal? No title for the new body. Thanks, Joe Subject: Re: [GTO] vin tags Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:34:09 -0500 Are you putting the old tags from the first one on to the parts that you bought (the new one)?
How about the frame, old or new? If new will you re stamp it to match first one? I would put the ones that match the title on the car. Call your local DMV to find out about the
legal end of it, call them several times, you probably will get different answers. Some of the purists may get excited about what you are doing, but I worry about the ability to
sell it, #'s match title more than correct tags for correct body. Dirk I am sure someone will chime in soon with all the right answers. Subject: Re: [GTO] vin tags Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 19:46:41 EDT Emailed the trimtag folks... http://www.trimtag.com Apart from supplying data plates, data plate rivets, and vin tag rivets, they also sell vin
tags in both "original" style, and repro. Original vin plate is $350, repro vin plate is $150.
Both come stamped with the alphanumerics to match your needs. I priced out a 66 just for example. I don't know if 68-72 are more or less. They also stamp up data plates to match your requests, so I guess you could cobble up a big
block Camaro, or Chevelle, and if you did your homework, no one would know, as they don't have
certification like PHS. Subject: [GTO] Horsepower TV Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Watching Horsepower TV this Sunday I noticed that next weeks show is suppose to feature a
Poncho 455 build. If you have TNN, it might be worth watching. Does it seem like there's more
Pontiac builds and articles recently or is it just my imagination. A few years back it seemed
like you never saw Pontiac articles. ===== Brad '68 Ram Air GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] Horsepower TV Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:51:27 EDT Brad, Do you know when that airs? I am assuming 3:00-4:00. I saw the blue paint and thought, hey, is
that a poncho motor? Sure enough, it was. TIA Lou 66 HT Subject: Re: [GTO] Horsepower TV Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:25:19 EDT I’ve seen this episode a month or 2 ago and they got it to like 612 horses. Joe Hollis Subject: Re: [GTO] Horsepower TV Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:54:04 EDT << Watching Horsepower TV this Sunday I noticed that next weeks show is suppose to feature a
Poncho 455 build. If you have TNN, it might be worth watching. Does it seem like there's more
Pontiac builds and articles recently or is it just my imagination. A few years back it seemed
like you never saw Pontiac articles. >> What time is it on? I will have to go to a friends house to watch it. I heard it will be a 500
inch Poncho. Gotta see that! Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Horsepower TV Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:52:50 EDT They are FINALLY starting to realize that there is a lot more power out there to be had if you
get away from a small block Chevy! Seems the world has been stuck on them for 30 years too long!
'Bout time Pontiac soaks up some of that limelight! Goatman [sorry, but it's almost 10:00 PM and I haven't bashed Chevys yet. Hey, I think that's a record! NOW, I can sleep good.] ;^] Subject: Re: [GTO] Horsepower TV Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 06:51:48 -0500 (CDT) << What time is it on? I will have to go to a friends house to watch it. I heard it will be a
500 inch Poncho. Gotta see that! >> Don't get too excited Goatman.... The only "secret" they reveal is to send large amounts of
cash to Jim Butler! ALF Subject: Re: [GTO] Horsepower TV Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 11:23:30 -0400 << Don't get too excited Goatman.... The only "secret" they reveal is to send large amounts
of cash to Jim Butler! ALF >> Over the summer, I spotted one of those special issues of Hot Rod or CC which highlighted
engine buildups done by a dozen different experts. It had an article w/Jim Butler on building a600+ HP, pump gas, Pontiac 455. Rick M. 66 GTO Tri-power/4spd 73 GP Model J http://www.goatsgarage.com Classic GTO Roadtests, "How To" Articles, Magazine Ads, GTO Games, GTO Wallpaper/Screensaver,
My Cars and More! Subject: Re: [GTO] Horsepower TV Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 01:04:09 EDT << Don't get too excited Goatman.... The only "secret" they reveal is to send large amounts of
cash to Jim Butler! ALF >> Well, I don't need their secrets, I have a few of my own [not to sound like a smart ass], I am
just curious what they do and how it performs. Don't get to see much Pontiac stuff on national
TV. Wish I had the Butlers budget! Goatman Subject: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:18:35 EDT What is the best way to get a Goat home after a purchase? I'm looking at one about 6 hours from
home. It’s drivable, but I wouldn't want to chance a breakdown on the highway. Imagine what the
vultures would do to the carcass while I went for help. Harry Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:52:04 EDT Best bet is to borrow or rent a good trailer. Be sure you have proper tie downs and cruise it
home that way. Get an insurance rider policy on the GTO before hand also. If for some reason anything happens,
at least you have some recourse/recovery. Congrats and good luck!! Bill Sanders '66 GTO Convertible Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 22:03:36 -0500 << What is the best way to get a Goat home after a purchase? I'm looking at one about 6 hours
from home. It’s drivable, but I wouldn't want to chance a breakdown on the highway. Imagine
what the vultures would do to the carcass while I went for help. >> Find a friend who has a car trailer and a truck. Then buy him meals, gas, and beer. Worked for
me. We got a Goat in the hills of Alabammy and brought it back to the cornfields of Indiana. Here is a pic of her on the trailer... http://UltimateGTO.com/1968/trailerd.jpg Good luck bringing yours back. -- === Sean Mattingly, The Ultimate GTO Picture Site featuring 1964 through 1974 Pontiac GTO cars. === Race over to my page at http://UltimateGTO.com Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 00:32:21 EDT << What is the best way to get a Goat home after a purchase? I'm looking at one about 6 hours
from home. It’s drivable, but I wouldn't want to chance a breakdown on the highway. Imagine
what the vultures would do to the carcass while I went for help. >> This reminds me of the time [back in the mid 80's] when my rear axle departed from the rearend
on my 65. I was doing 65 mph at the time also! Anyway, to make a short story long, it was late
at night and I could not find the axle, so I had to leave it on the side of the highway between
Nogales [border town] and Tucson until the next day before I could get it towed home. I had
nightmares all night long about returning to my Goat only to find a carcass left. Boy was I
relieved to find it still there and in 1 piece. Damn good thing these cars weren't collectors
items back then! Now days, it would have been gone in hours. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Sign-up for AAA and bring a cell phone........nothing like driving home in the NEW (30+ yr.)
purchase! Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:05:56 -0400 I ran across a guy locking down cars in a nice enclosed semi-trailer with ramps who works full
time out of Florida. I was impressed with his rig and knowledge, claims to have super insurance,
charges $.75 mile if you give him advance notice and wait for him to work you into his schedule,
email offlist if you want me to dig up his card. Jim E. Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:49:28 EDT Ryder, or UHaul have decent trailers. Also tow rigs to pull them!! Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:58:08 EDT Thanks to all for the transport tips. Now, how do I get this guy to accept my offer? :-) Harry Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:42:27 -0700 << Thanks to all for the transport tips. Now, how do I get this guy to accept my offer? :-) Harry >> Show the money to his wife. Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:50:40 EDT If you've got access to a truck, get a car trailer with a "come-along" and tow it home. I once
had a "friend" go and pick my 71 Conv. up at a garage after getting allot of work done, and he
ended up getting pulled over for no brakelights. Moral of the story: Do it yourself. John 71 GTO Conv Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 18:12:57 EDT << Thanks to all for the transport tips. Now, how do I get this guy to accept my offer? :-) Harry >> Take your cousin 'Vinny' with you. You know, the one who played linebacker for the Bears!! Make
sure Vinny makes an offer he can't refuse!! Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:12:25 EDT << Show the money to his wife. >> I did that when I bought a '65 GTO. I made an insultingly low offer and the guy took it cause
his wife was bitching so bad about how he should take my cash offer and that she needed a new
washer and dryer. He wasn't happy! I was though! Steve K. Wishing I had kept that '65 post car. Subject: Re: [GTO] Herding a goat! Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:12:00 EDT << Thanks to all for the transport tips. Now, how do I get this guy to accept my offer? :-) Harry >> Did you try holding a gun to his head? I know I would sell if you did! There doesn't have to be
any bullets in it. LOL Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 08:08:25 EDT A year or two ago there was a thread going on the list about how to keep mice from nesting in
the interior of the Goat. I paid no attention since I had not ever had this problem. This
spring when the road salt was gone and I took the GTO out of the Garage there were signs of the
little critters. I'm thinking of moth balls in the floor this fall, any other ideas? Will the
car take on a moth ball odor even after they have been removed next spring? That does not sound
real good. Jim 67GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:38:17 -0500 The mothball smell will go away - I use ones than have a cedar scent - not as bad - get em at
wally world. That's all I do for my cars - never have a mice problem - couple nice days with
windows open - smell is gone. Mike Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:02:00 EDT Jim , , , You have the right idea but do not, I repeat, Not put the mothballs directly on the carpet.
This won’t affect their effectiveness against mice, but will make the smell from mothballs last
for quite a while next spring. Yes, you will have a mothball smell after using them during the
winter, but a good airing or two should take care of the problem. kuchila Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:12:18 EDT I buy a couple of those small (about 3" X 5") disposable aluminum cooking pans from the local
hardware. I put the mothballs in them. I usually put one in the engine compartment, two or
three in the interior, and one in the trunk. Place them carefully, or look carefully in the
spring. One year one of the moth balls rolled under my passenger seat. It took me a month to
figure out why the smell hadn't gone away. Raymon 66 GTO HT Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:29:17 EDT I've got a cure for mice that has no odor at all. I had this problem with one of my other cars
a few years ago. My neighbor tipped me off..... Get an old radio and leave it on all the time.
Doesn't have to be very loud, but just that little bit of noise will keep the mice away. I've
had a radio running in my garage now for about 5 years and no signs of mice getting near my
cars. Matt Dillon 66 convt Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:35:08 -0400 I seem to recall someone once posting that they put three or four open bars of Irish Spring
soap in their car to keep mice away. Can anyone confirm this? Rick M. 66 GTO Tri-power/4spd 73 GP Model J http://www.goatsgarage.com Classic GTO Roadtests, "How To" Articles, Magazine Ads, GTO Games,
GTO Wallpaper/Screensaver, My Cars and More! Subject: RE: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:38:36 -0400 Raymon: Good idea. I kind of liked the other post about using the cedar scented ones. Used
mothballs myself last year and had absolutely no problem with varmits. On another matter, took
the GTO to the upholstery shop this morning at 7:30 for the new top installation. People must
have thought I had a couple of screws loose. No top - 39 degrees in Pittsburgh and slightly
foggy. Wore a ski jacket and my NYPD baseball hat. Supposed to go to 34 degrees tonight. I did
not however, break the cardinal rules of owning a convertible especially a GTO. Windows were
down, radio was up high and boot cover was in place. Saw a whoos with his cute Japanese POS
convertible with his windows up. Probably had the heater on also. Mike Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:52:24 EDT Never heard of that one Matt. May just have to try that out, be cheaper that buying mothballs
every year. kuchila Subject: RE: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 14:04:02 -0400 Doesn't sound to good. Probably end up with mice with the runs. Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:03:26 EDT I remember that one about the Irish Spring now from the last discussion, wonder if it is as
good as Moth Balls or has a lingering odor? Jim 67GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:50:55 -0400 I put two of the electronic devices sold on QVC in the section of my garage I keep my GTOs in
and don't even have spider webs let alone mice. Tom Duffy Subject: RE: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:58:38 -0500 I was looking for a reply that recommended one of those electronic gizmos, especially the QVC
versions. A few years back I had a couple cheap ultrasonic mouse/bug repellers. I also placed a few
mousetraps around the garage as well. For about 6 months I had no hits on my traps, then all of
a sudden I started catching a mouse now and then. The gizmo had a flashing led on it,
indicating it was working. It wasn’t flashing, and the mice started coming in. I plugged in
another, and the mice went away again. I thought they were bogus, but my experience tells me different. I think I'll place a order
from QVC. Bill 66 GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:59:19 -0400 What do these cost? Where else might they be available? I haven't had any problem with mice destroying my cars yet, but have found indications that
they are getting in my garage. Rick M. 66 GTO Tri-power/4spd 73 GP Model J http://www.goatsgarage.com Classic GTO Roadtests, "How To" Articles, Magazine Ads, GTO Games,
GTO Wallpaper/Screensaver, My Cars and More! Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 06:19:22 -0500 (CDT) << A year or two ago there was a thread going on the list about how to keep mice from nesting
in the interior of the Goat. I paid no attention since I had not ever had this problem. This
spring when the road salt was gone and I took the GTO out of the Garage there were signs of the
little critters. I'm thinking of moth balls in the floor this fall, any other ideas? Will the
car take on a moth ball odor even after they have been removed next spring? That does not sound
real good. >> When I took ownership of my 67, the previous owner had stored it for several years with PLENTY
of mothballs scattered about the interior... It doesn't work... I had plenty of mice and their
damage to contend with... It sure made my car stink though... I had to change out the carpet,
headliner and do hours of scrubbing to get rid of the smell..... There are better ways.... ALF Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:08:37 CST << I seem to recall someone once posting that they put three or four open bars of Irish Spring
soap in their car to keep mice away. Can anyone confirm this? >> I tried it last year with my Trans Am. The mice chewed the soap and relieved themselves in the
containers. I don't think they were impressed. ;^) Brad "Back to mothballs" O. Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 07:59:01 -0500 (CDT) The best thing I ever found was a good baited trap. The ones I use are made of plastic and use
a rocker type of arrangement to work. Granted it doesn't deter them from getting in, but it
usually stops them and cleanup isn't messy and resetting the traps is painless. I picked them
up at a local Meijer stop near. Bait with peanut butter and check them often. Just my .02 worth. Rob Subject: RE: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:15:19 -0500 QVC sells 2 versions of electronic pest repellers. One covers 1000 SQ. ft., the other covers
the whole house. It's supposed to send some type of "signal" thru the house wiring, which in
turn irritates rodents and some bugs. The small unit sells for something like $24.95. http://www.qvc.com I have not used the "Riddex" version that Tom mentioned, but for $25 bucks, I think I'll give
it a try. Here’s a link to other versions of ultrasonic repeller: http://stores.yahoo.com/direct/ulelpesrep.html http://www.smarthome.com/6133.html Bill 66 GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] Mice in the Goat?! Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 02:20:15 EDT << I thought they were bogus, but my experience tells me different. I think I'll place a order
from QVC. Bill 66 GTO >> I know from experience that those things do not work for flying insects like they claim. I
believe that they may work for animals like mice though. Goatman Subject: [GTO] Terminology Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:30:00 EDT I see the abbreviation "NOM" in ads. What does it mean? Not Original Motor? Harry Subject: RE: [GTO] Terminology Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:33:40 CST << I see the abbreviation "NOM" in ads. What does it mean? Not Original Motor? >> How about New Old Metal - i.e. repair work was done with NOS sheetmetal? Brad Subject: Re: [GTO] Terminology Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 22:44:15 -0700 << I see the abbreviation "NOM" in ads. What does it mean? Not Original Motor? Harry >> I asked 4 guys here (beer party) and the best I got was "nefinitely original mequipement". Rick Subject: Re: [GTO] Terminology Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:53:42 EDT << I asked 4 guys here (beer party) and the best I got was "nefinitemly original mequipement". Rick >> Sounds like "TMB" Too much beer! Harry Subject: Re: [GTO] Terminology Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 06:21:42 EDT << I see the abbreviation "NOM" in ads. What does it mean? Not Original Motor? >> You are correct, sir. NOM is Non Original Motor. Are you ready now for the $64.00 question? Kenny L Subject: Re: [GTO] Terminology Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 08:57:12 -0600 << I see the abbreviation "NOM" in ads. What does it mean? Not Original Motor? >> Needs Onother Motor Subject: Re: [GTO] Terminology Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:36:50 EDT << You are correct, sir. NOM is Non Original Motor. Are you ready now for the $64.00 question? Kenny L >> Yes! Harry Subject: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 23:14:51 EDT From: MycoPhoric OK, I got my new intake manifold and my loving father blasted off all the ugly yellow paint.
So, off I went to the local Wal-Mart to get some engine paint. I found some paint it was...
Dupli-Color engine enamel I am not sure the part#, but it said Pontiac blue right on the cap...
After I started painting with it I compared it to my existing blue paint and found it to not
match at all... gggrrrrr I know that the engine has been out of my car before, but maybe the
person painted it GM blue or eeekkk F*rd Blue!! Now I was wondering if the correct blue is the
light Pontiac blue or the mid blue that was on the motor??? Steve Rautio 69 LeMans convertible "w/ funny colored engine" Subject: RE: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 23:44:59 -0400 From: "roman" Well, for 69, Pontiac painted the GTO's a "Metallic Silver Blue" As a matter of fact, I just
painted the engine in my 69 and that's the color the GTO Restoration as well as the place where
I bought the paint specify. Roman 69 GTO Toronto, Ontario Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:03:57 -0400 From: "Warren Hanbury" You can buy the Pontiac Metallic Silver Blue paint at "Pep Boys" if you have one in your area. Warren Subject: RE: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:10:42 -0400 From: "Ron Lawrence" I'd suggest PlastiKote (sp?) Pontiac Metallic Blue... PN 277 or 228 IIRC. I used it: See pictures at: http://members.zdial.com/~lawrence/gto/process.htm Ron Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:20:23 EDT From: Jwroblesk << I'd suggest PlastiKote (sp?) Pontiac Metallic Blue... PN 277 or 228 IIRC. I used it: See pictures at: http://members.zdial.com/~lawrence/gto/process.htm >> Ron, Have you had the engine running yet? Wondering how long the paint will last. Joe Subject: RE: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:27:58 -0400 From: "Ron Lawrence" Joe, The engine has run, but not on the street yet. CAM break in, and various other startups to test
stuff out. So far, very, very minor discoloration on the exhaust ports... but what else is new
:-) It's actually very easy to touch up with a paint brush. Just spray some in the cap and dap the
new paint on. Works great. Ron 70 GTO 76 Ventura Subject: RE: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:22:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Hill << I'd suggest PlastiKote (sp?) Pontiac Metallic Blue...PN 277 or 228 IIRC. I used it: See pictures at: http://members.zdial.com/~lawrence/gto/process.htm Ron >> I've had good results with the PlastiKote as well. It seems to be a little more heat resistant
than that of others I've tried. Every bit helps. ===== Brad '68 Ram Air GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 01:39:59 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << OK, I got my new intake manifold and my loving father blasted off all the ugly yellow paint.
So off I went to the local Wal-Mart to get some engine paint. I found some paint it was...
Dupli-Color engine enamel I am not sure the part#, but it said Pontiac blue right on the cap...
After I started painting with it I compared it to my existing blue paint and found it to not
match at all... gggrrrrr I know that the engine has been out of my car before but maybe the
person painted it GM blue or eeekkk F*rd Blue!! Now I was wondering if the correct blue is the
light Pontiac blue or the mid blue that was on the motor??? Steve Rautio 69 LeMans convertible "w/ funny colored engine" >> Steve, up until 65 they used a sky blue paint. From 66-71 maybe 1970, they used a silver/blue
metallic. After 70 or 71 they used a darker, non metallic blue. You should be using silver/blue
metallic for sure for 69. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 01:53:14 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Ron, Have you had the engine running yet? Wondering how long the paint will last. Joe >> It won't take long to burn off the ex. and the crossover. I found that using high temp engine
primer AFTER cleaning the block with brake cleaner or lacquer thinner or metal prep then
painting the metallic silver/blue, it takes much longer to burn. Matter of fact, after 10
months it is only slightly discolored! I used the Plasticote for both primer and paint. Got
them at Pep Boys. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:57:23 EDT From: Jwroblesk << I found that using high temp engine primer AFTER cleaning the block with brake >> Paul, I've never heard of high temp engine primer? What brand and where can I get it? Joe Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:16:38 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Paul, I've never heard of high temp engine primer? What brand and where can I get it? Joe >> Joe, I got it from Pep Boys and it was Plasti-Kote. Says it resists heat to 500 degrees. The
paint was the same brand. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 01:42:49 EDT From: MycoPhoric Well I think I go the older sky blue color paint.. and it is on there to stay for a couple
reasons. Time and Money.. gggrrrrrr Don't have the time to strip off wrong paint and repaint it
and right now I had to borrow money to get the gaskets for the thing. Steve Rautio 69 LeMans Convertible *now with multicolored engine Subject: RE: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 08:58:03 -0400 From: CharlesB Yeah, but it's probably gonna suck when you're staring at it after it's in. Then it's gonna be REALLY hard to paint it. CB Subject: [GTO] Engine Book Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:12:05 -0500 From: "larry s schofield" Can any one suggest a good "How to build a Pontiac Engine" book? I have never rebuilt a Pontiac
motor, and the last motor I helped rebuild was in 1979. I have decided to go with a 1967 HO
motor. I will only be driving the car on fair weather outings, no racing. Should I even consider
spending the extra money to have the motor balanced, or would this be a waste of time? Thanks, Larry 67 conv. Subject: Re: [GTO] Engine Book Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:01:25 -0500 From: "Chris Bilich" The 2 books that helped me build my 455 this summer were: "Engine Builder's Handbook" Tom
Monroe "Engine Blueprinting" Rick Voegelin. They both tell step-by-step info on the whole process, from beginning to end. Neither are
Pontiac-specific, but still covered the spectrum of what you'd encounter in an engine.... Most
of the Pontiac-specific variations were mentioned here or there. They cost me $8-10 each at
Half-Price Books. Good luck! Chris PS - mine runs great, so the books must have been worth it! Subject: Re: [GTO] Engine Book Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:37:48 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Can any one suggest a good "How to build a Pontiac Engine" book? I have never rebuilt a
Pontiac motor, and the last motor I helped rebuild was in 1979. I have decided to go with a
1967 HO motor. I will only be driving the car on fair weather outings, no racing. Should I even
consider spending the extra money to have the motor balanced, or would this be a waste of time? Thanks, Larry 67 conv. >> Larry, I have found that H.O. Racing Specialties "Pontiac High Performance engine design and
blueprint assembly" to be very good. Also, H.O. makes the "Pontiac Racers and High Performance
Handbook" which is very good for parts identification and procedures. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Engine Book Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 20:29:07 CST From: "Maxwell Edison, majoring in medicine" << Larry, I have found that H.O. Racing Specialties "Pontiac High Performance engine design
and blueprint assembly" to be very good. Also, H.O. makes the "Pontiac Racers and High
Performance Handbook" which is very good for parts identification and procedures. >> The HP Handbook is a Pete McCarthy & John Angeles book... Brad Subject: Re: [GTO] Engine Book Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:46:09 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Larry, I have found that H.O. Racing Specialties "Pontiac High Performance engine design
and blueprint assembly" to be very good. Also, H.O. makes the "Pontiac Racers and High
Performance Handbook" which is very good for parts identification and procedures. >> <<< The HP Handbook is a Pete McCarthy & John Angeles book... Brad >>> Oops, sorry, your right. Thanks Brad for catching that! Guess I can't read when I am tired! Goatman Subject: [GTO] car cover Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:18:09 EDT From: Jwroblesk Anyone seen the plastic bag that you drive your car into and then zip it up. It has a small fan installed which then blows up the plastic bag. I'm told it does a great job
keeping the rodents out. Joe Subject: Re: [GTO] car cover Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 12:34:56 EDT From: Goats3 << Anyone seen the plastic bag that you drive your car into and then zip it up. It has a small fan installed which then blows up the plastic bag. I'm told it does a great
job keeping the rodents out. Joe >> I've seen them at swap meets. Looks like a neat concept. Kenny L Subject: Re: [GTO] car cover Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 12:56:54 -0700 From: J Tatum << Anyone seen the plastic bag that you drive your car into and then zip it up. It has a small fan installed which then blows up the plastic bag. I'm told it does a great job
keeping the rodents out. >> California Car Cover Company lists them in their 2000 catalog. They call them a "car capsule". http://WWW.CALCARCOVER.COM Jim Subject: Re: [GTO] car cover Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:44:00 -0500 (CDT) From: rowilson Yes, I saw them at the Detroit Motorama a year ago. They are very nice but a bit too pricey at
around $400 if I recall correctly. Rob Subject: Re: [GTO] car cover Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:58:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Hill << Anyone seen the plastic bag that you drive your car into and then zip it up. It has a small fan installed which then blows up the plastic bag. I'm told it does a great job
keeping the rodents out. Joe >> They had one on My Classic Car last year. If your looking for one I bet you can find info on
there web site. ===== Brad '68 Ram Air GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] car cover Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 15:20:41 EDT From: Olgoat7 I also saw these at a car show. I got the 'pitch' on these bags and was told about the fan
keeping the air moving preventing moisture problems from occurring. But my concern was that
with a quick temperature change the difference in the temperature of the metal of the car and
the temperature of the air being brought in would cause a condensation problem. Jim Subject: RE: [GTO] car cover Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 18:09:49 -0500 From: "iceman" The clear bag with the fan is kind of neat, but "car bags" are pretty good too: http://www.carbag.com/ bill 66 gto Subject: [GTO] Acronyms Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:14:37 -0700 From: J Tatum << Some more notes just added to my 'book' - thanks. But most of all, what's 'bg'? (It's
drivin me nuts now) >> bg = big grin vbg = very big grin lol = laughing out loud rotflmao = rolling on the floor laughing my ass off lolrotflpmp = laughing out loud rolling on the floor peeing my pants IMO = in my opinion IMHO = in my humble opinion Sorry, 4 years on other e-mail lists. Old habits.Cheers, Jim Subject: RE: [GTO] Acronyms Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:11:41 -0400 From: CharlesB Thanks. Now I wonder if there's one which stands for something that means I laughed so hard that I
snorted beer through my nose. CB Subject: Re: [GTO] Acronyms Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 12:57:55 EDT From: A6464NUT That's too easy-ILSHTISBTMN Harry Subject: Re: [GTO] Acronyms Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 01:03:37 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Thanks. Now I wonder if there's one which stands for something that means I laughed so hard that I snorted beer through my nose. CB >> Yeah, it's ILSHTISBTMN! Goatman Subject: [GTO] Re: Carriers Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:25:59 EDT From: Jrmoseley I know I have seen this posted before and did not pay any attention since I knew I was happy
with my 67 and not in need of another GTO....., but how about those names of carriers that
deliver cars across the country, ASAP!!! Jim 67GTO 68 GTO (once it gets here!) Can't pass up a good deal! Subject: Re: [GTO] Re: Carriers Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 07:28:07 -0500 From: Mike Donahoe I've used Ray's Transport (out of Maryland - also office here in Rochester Minnesota) I can get
number in about 1 1/2 hours - I have them at home - friend of mine has at his office - can get
in touch with him by 9. Mike Subject: Re: [GTO] Re: Carriers Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:06:37 EDT From: MrkMasters I've used Cumberland Express out of TN. They have hauled 2 cars for me and were reasonable and
had good service. 1.888.882.3682 Mark 64 Conv Subject: Re: [GTO] Re: Carriers Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:40:45 EDT From: ARayman http://www.horselesscarriage.com. Approx. $1 per loaded mile. Fully enclosed. They transport a lot of high end vehicles, so
handling is not a problem. Subject: Re: [GTO] Re: Carriers Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:20:41 -0700 From: J Tatum << http://www.horselesscarriage.com Approx. $1 per loaded mile. Fully enclosed. They transport a lot of high end vehicles, so
handling is not a problem. >> I've got a cousin in that business. They are currently running 3 rigs from coast to coast
hauling "high end" cars from the high dollar collector auctions. They are insured, use enclosed
trailers, and might be able to beat that price. I got a great rate bringing one in from Denver via them. Jim Subject: Re: [GTO] Re: Carriers Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:24:56 EDT From: Cf204cf Fawcett Transport in FL hauled a LeMans from Florida to Delaware in 22 hours, $450.
1 800 774-0035 Subject: [GTO] car repair cost Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 23:47:25 -0500 From: Sean & Mary Ann Mattingly Calling all pro car mechanics! Do any of you have a computerized database of how much it
generally costs to make common car repairs? I'm looking for a database like the ones insurance companies always use to estimate body shop
repairs. Except I need a database that covers stuff like replacing fuel pump, replace power
steering pump, replace timing chain, etc. After I get a repair database, I want to see if we (as a group) can adapt it to GTOs
specifically. The costs for repairing common items on GTOs could be listed out. It might make
an interesting article for my web site. Plus it might be an eye-opener for prospective buyers
of GTOs. -- === Sean Mattingly, The Ultimate GTO Picture Site featuring 1964 through 1974 Pontiac GTO cars. === Race over to my page at http://UltimateGTO.com Subject: Re: [GTO] car repair cost Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:42:57 -0400 From: Terry Nixon That used to be called a "flat-rate manual" in the old days. So much time per job, listed in a
book. You had to work pretty fast to beat flat-rate, because that was the quote price. More
jobs mean more money! Terry Subject: Re: [GTO] car repair cost Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:33:34 -0500 From: Mike Donahoe There is still a flat rate manual except now days we have it all on computer with twice a year
updates. Mike PPMI Motorsports Subject: Re: [GTO] car repair cost Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:09:23 EDT From: Goats3 << That used to be called a "flat-rate manual" in the old days. So much time per job, listed in
a book. You had to work pretty fast to beat flat-rate, because that was the quote price. More
jobs mean more money! Terry >> You can pick up old flat rate manuals pretty cheap at swap meets, etc. Not too many people
collect them. Kenny L Back to TECH Subjects
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