Rebuilds: Subject: [GTO] 455 build ideas Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 00:19:25 -0500 From: "Chris Bilich" Hey gang, Last summer was paint/body on the LeMans, and this summer's slated to toss the tired 350 for a
Fo-Fitty-Five. Rick on the list says he can find me a 455 somewhere in TX, but I'm going to
need some help on exactly what to ask for. Budget: about $2,000-$2,500 including core purchase, machine work, parts, etc. Here's what I know: I want a streetable engine: a rational ceiling (5000 rpm?), 92-93 octane pump gas,
4,000 lb. '72 LeMans Sport into the low 13's on 255-60 BFG Radial T/A's (I'll also be changing
the rear gear to 3.23 posi, most likely) Here's what I have to pirate from the running 350: 68 GTO intake, Qjet carb (a few extra
jets/rods to tune with), HEI distributor, headers, 2.25" duals w/h-pipe Heads I have now: 7H1 - from '72 350 2bbl motor 6X - ("4" on the #2 exhaust boss, signifying 91 cc chambers (right?) It's my understanding that the 91 cc 6X's will yield about 9:1-10:1 compression on a 455, and
can be "fine tuned" with the right piston choice. With the right cam, I can make insane torque
and decent top end power (if I keep my top end low enough). Sorry for such a dissertation....Let me know what y'all think. Thanks! Chris Subject: [GTO] Need rebuild advice Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:41:28 -0500 From: "Chris Bilich" Some of you may know, and others not, but I've recently grabbed a 455 that's going to replace
my 350 in my LeMans this summer, after a rebuild. Before I rip into it, I need some help. I don't know what's happened to this motor over the past 26 years. It's a '74 block topped with
'72 7K3 heads, so it might have already been rebuilt. It has an "emissions" 4bbl intake and a
Q-jet that begins with a "1", telling that it's a POS also. These will be replaced with a '68
GTO 400 intake and a prepped Q-jet. Pulling the valve covers shows that the heads have been
"touched"....no crud beneath...so they've at least been cleaned. I want to diagnose the block and rotating assembly to make sure they're going to hold up to the
450 HP that I want to make with this motor. Everyone says the 7K3's will be good heads, or the
6X's (91 cc) that I have here also, to make 9.5-9.8:1 compression (the ceiling for 93 octane,
right?) How can I tell, without tearing it all down, what's been bored/turned down/resized yadda yadda
before, or if I'm the first one in there? More importantly, how can I tell without too many
expensive tools, what's been done and what needs to be done? If I can't tell by personal
inspection, what should I take to a machine shop, what questions to ask, what will they need to
look at, etc.? I know this is a big job, but I need somewhere to start. Thanks! Chris (college budget) Bilich Subject: Re: [GTO] Need rebuild advice Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:22:56 EDT From: LP10978 If your expecting anywhere near 450 hp then you would be a fool not to machine the bottom end
and get everything nice and snug. First thing when you pull the head, simply use a can of carb
cleaner and spray the top of one of the pistons. It will be stamped STD, .030, .040 etc.
obviously anything other than STD meaning standard means its been bored. Still have it checked.
Also, at the top of the cylinders run your finger nail up the wall and usually the very top 1/4
inch or so is where a "lip" is worn in too much lip means it needs to be bored a little more.
Next, the bottom end... Yank the pan and first check the mains (the mains are the big caps with the bolts in them).
Unbolt the top half. When unbolted, lightly tap the sides with a ball peen hammer to loosen it.
Look in the half cap and inspect the bearing. You should be able to tell if its worn. Any signs
of copper aren’t good. If you look under the cap and see no bearing then it probably stuck to
the crank journal. CAREFULLY removed it for inspection. No sharp objects near the journals.
Simple scratch will hurt new bearings. Do the same with the rod and only do one cap at a time,
and when done inspecting each replace them cap and snug the bolt. Also, on one of the outer
edges of the bearings is some writing usually there’s 3 things. A date when manufactured it'll
give you an idea on last rebuild, then there’s a company name (Clevitte 77, Fed. Mogul etc.).
Then there’s the size, again STD, .010, .020 etc. If you start seeing 20 under or 30 under and
your crank isn’t PERFECT. Then I would get a new crank. Never seen a crank cut below 30
thousandths. But seriously dude, if you want this motor to be tight and run good for awhile.
Then have everything checked, cleaned, balanced and reconditioned. 450 hp is allot and with a
455 that’s well over 550 lbs. of torque. Might cost you 1200$ to do it. But its worth it and
1200 is NOT A LOT compared to some. My friends Firebird with a 455 goes 11.60’s and that’s an
almost stock 455 (except for the 125 shot lol ). If you want more on that setup email me
offlist or onlist whatever. -- scott Subject: Re: [GTO] Need rebuild advice Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 08:48:50 EDT From: PONTIAC475 << if you start seeing 20 under or 30 under and your crank isn’t PERFECT than I would get a new
crank. Never seen a crank cut below 30 thousandths, but seriously dude, if you want this motor
to be tight and run good for awhile, then have everything checked, cleaned, balanced and
reconditioned. >> I think you can use cranks as long as there is a bearing available. Personally my cranks rod
journals are cut much farther than what they sell for undersized journals, this being because I
run Chevy BB rods, which are smaller than a PONTIAC bearing surface. Also 3 2.5" cranks are cut
to 3" w/no problem, so again I think cutting a crank is just fine. Especially if it's a 455
crank. Joey Subject: Re: [GTO] Need rebuild advice Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 02:33:03 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << I think you can use cranks as long as there is a bearing available. Personally my cranks rod
journals are cut much farther than what they sell for undersized journals, this being because I
run Chevy BB rods, which are smaller than a PONTIAC bearing surface. Also 3 2.5" cranks are cut
to 3" w/no problem, so again I think cutting a crank is just fine. Especially if it's a 455
crank. Joey >> Very true Joey. The cranks are plenty strong and the thickness of the bearing is made up
in the steel back, NOT the babbit surface. So a .030 bearing won't pound out any faster than a
standard bearing. Bearings are available for a small Chevy all the way down to .060 for the
rods, and Chevy cranks are way whimpier than Pontiacs. Goatman Subject: [GTO] Priming/Pressurizing Oil System Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 02:49:59 EDT From: Spikaliba Advice requested-- I made a jig to (with a screwdriver blade and a rubber hose) which allows me to connect a drill
to my oil pump shaft to pressurize the system prior to start-up. Can anyone tell me what drill
speed I should use and about how long will it take to pressurize the system--That is, how long
before I should see oil emerging from the pushrods? Thanks for your time and attention and "I will leave the light on for ya". tom 68 goat Subject: [GTO] Re: [GTO] Priming/Pressurizing Oil System Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:29:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Konen Tom My experience priming a 400 is that I use a high speed drill, 1/2 inch chuck (I forget the rpm)
(I know it big thou). 10 minutes for oil to start coming out of all the push-rods heavy from
some light from others. I’m sure the stronger the rpm the faster the oil emerges... I usually
prime for about a good 20 minutes. This assures of a good soaking. Word of advice. Cover the
distributor hole with a rag while priming the engine. You would be amazed how much stuff can
end up in that hole... Just poke a hole thru the rag big enough for your jig to fit and lay it
over top of the hole. Subject: [GTO] Handy Priming Tools 101 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:33:08 -0600 From: Dan As far as a priming tool goes, I used an old points distributor I had laying around. Gut the
dist down to just the case and the drive shaft, turn the top of the shaft down to fit into a
drill chuck (this can be done on a lathe or with a grinding wheel, doesn't need to be perfect).
VOILA! A new priming tool is born. This set up allows you to bolt the casing down thus removing any chance of debris entering the
dist hole. Don't forget to remove the drive gear from the bottom of the shaft or you'll go
nowhere fast. My .02 Subject: RE: [GTO] Priming/Pressurizing Oil System Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:01:29 CST From: "The Harper Valley P.T.A." When I primed the 455 in my Grand Ville a couple of years ago I let my Milwaukee drill run at
about top speed for 30 minutes. I want to say that that would've been 1200 RPM, or the
equivalent of an engine running at 2400 RPM. I didn't have any problems with running the pan
dry, and if it's possible you should turn the crank 60-90 degrees every few minutes. Make a
couple of complete revolutions if you can. Brad Subject: Re: [GTO] Priming/Pressurizing Oil System Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:32:22 -0500 From: Bill Horwath Tom... I've done something similar, although I use an old distributor shaft with out the gear. I
installed a mechanical oil pressure gauge, and was able to get about 20 PSI with a drill
turning at about 300 RPM (big 1/2 drill, but rather slow RPM). Just get the direction right. I'm not sure you will get oil to rise through the pushrods. I thought the hydraulic lifters
needed to operate, therefore "pumping" oil up to the lifters. I was happy if I could get a spot
of oil on the crankshaft, cam and some/all of the lifters. Perhaps others can comment if the
oil will make it to the rockers without the engine running. bill Subject: Re: [GTO] Priming/Pressurizing Oil System Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 02:39:10 EDT From: Spikaliba Thanks everyone for your comments on priming the oil system. I used a drill motor running
counterclockwise at 550 rpm (this is slow) and was able to get good oil flow on one bank
(actually dripping off of the rockers) and just a spot of oil on each rocker of the other bank
(indicating some oil flow thru the pushrods) but this took about 20 minutes. Just about
everyone I spoke to indicated a similar kind of experience. Results will be better with higher
rpms and probably a lot quicker. tom Subject: Re: [GTO] Priming/Pressurizing Oil System Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 09:26:55 EDT From: PONTIAC475 << Results will be better with higher rpms and probably a lot quicker. tom >> Tom the lifters are the last to get the oil, so if you see oil at the top of the motor (HEADS)
then you are fine. Pressure is not needed at all, but it makes the job quicker. All you are
doing is filling the passages up w/oil so it is primed. Because after 1/2 a second of running
there will be oil all threw that motor, so don't sweat it. Just make sure u turn the motor over
while doing it. Joey Subject: Re: [GTO] Priming/Pressurizing Oil System Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:39:39 -0500 From: "Daniel Dale" You can also buy one of those tools for a SB Chevy for priming the pump. Works just fine on a Pontiac also. Just make sure you have a reversible drill! Dan Dale Subject: Re: [GTO] Priming/Pressurizing Oil System Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 23:05:09 EDT From: Corpkilr1 << You can also buy one of those tools for a SB Chevy for priming the pump. Works just fine on a Pontiac also. Just make sure you have a reversible drill! Dan Dale >> Anything that is associated w/ SB./che-- doesn't come close to being near all the Real
automobile stuff in this yard.....Poncho all the way !!!!! -corpkilr- Subject: [GTO] engine assembly help?!?! Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:48:49 -0500 From: "Chris Bilich" On Friday, I'm getting my 455 (9.3 compression, ~400 HP) back from the machine shop. It'll be
taken .040" over, crank turned .020/.020", and the piston/rods assembled, and the whole
rotating mass balanced. This will "apparently" be ready to assemble. He's buying the engine kit
and will give me all the pieces to assemble the engine myself... Which I really want to do. He's assembling the heads, too. My question(s) are this: Will I need new rod, main, or head bolts? What other engine internals would "not" be included
in a full kit that might need to be replaced? (I'm thinking all bases are covered, save the
bolts... Which I don't think are usually included in an engine kit). Thanks, Chris Subject: Re: [GTO] engine assembly help?!?! Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 22:19:40 EDT From: Vanmor If I went this far, I think I would get new bolts for rods, mains, and heads. You should get new rod and main bearings with a new rebuild kit. Did they press in new cam
bearings, when they did your block? Vance 68 GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] engine assembly help?!?! Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 23:45:18 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Will I need new rod, main, or head bolts? >> No on the main and head bolts. The old ones should be fine. The rod bolts are a good idea to
replace but will require resizing the rods. If you use the old bolts do this; torque them to 45
lb. ft. After all bolts are torqued, go back and re-torque them [a click type torque wrench is
a must for this], they should torque [click] without the nut turning anymore. If the nut turns
more before the torque wrench clicks, I would replace the bolts. If your not sure, re-torque
them 3 or 4 times to see if the nut keeps turning. It should not keep turning before the wrench
clicks. If they all torque up fine they should be all right. If you want good insurance, buy
some good bolts and have the rods resized. << What other engine internals would "not" be included in a full kit that might need to be
replaced? (I'm thinking all bases are covered, save the bolts... Which I don't think are
usually included in an engine kit). >> The oil pump pick up tube is usually not included. Unless it came with a Melling pump, I think
they come with a pick-up tube. Look in the oil pump box to see if you have one. If not, measure
the hole in the oil pump that the tube goes into. It will either be 5/8 or 3/4 inch [hopefully
3/4 inch] and get a tube to match and weld it in place about 1/4 inch off the bottom of the pan.
Pick up a set of rod bolt booty's for installing the pistons so you don't ding the crank. You
can use some 3/8 fuel hose if you can't find the booty's. Also, if the cam lube that the kit comes with is a thick type of oil, I would go out and
find a good moly base grease specifically designed for cam break-in. Don't need to wipe a cam
lobe off. The kit should have pretty much every thing else you will need. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] engine assembly help?!?! Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 06:20:28 -0500 From: "Chris Bilich" How much $$ should I spend on bolts? Which part numbers are the best? Yep, the cam bearings will be done by the shop. All other bearings are in the kit, and will be
installed by me when I bolt it all together. Chris Subject: Re: [GTO] engine assembly help?!?! Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:41:54 -0500 From: "Darren Pallen" I recently completed the rebuild on my 1968 GTO 400 H.O. engine. It is a completely stock
rebuild, down to the 068 "Blueprint Cam". The only "modifications" were the use of ARP
connecting rod bolts and rocker studs. We also align honed the block and balanced the reciprocating assembly. This cost me a little more, but the engine runs like an absolute dream. Plus, I don't have to worry about a bad connecting rod bolt. ARP are great, although expensive. My theory is, when you are spending significant amounts of money on a rebuild, there is really
no point trying to save a buck or two here and there. Imagine what it will cost a little down
the road if the assembly blows apart. Just my 2 cents.... Regards, Darren Pallen, B.A., President MASS Merchandising & Sales www.massales.com Subject: Re: [GTO] engine assembly help?!?! Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:42:14 EDT From: Goats3 << If I went this far, I think I would get new bolts for rods, mains, and heads >> New rod bolts are usually a must. Head and main bolts should be OK to reuse. Did you get a new
oil pump? Kenny L Subject: [GTO] Painting (exhaust manifolds) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 14:51:43 EDT From: CLOZEM List, My motor is close to being finished and I have a question. I was told to take the exhaust
manifolds and intake manifold to have them painted. I was told to have them powdercoated. When
I called the paint shop I was told the powdercoat paint would not last, it will only be good to
250 degrees. What is my mission? Thank you in advance. Scott 1967 GTO Conv. Subject: Re: [GTO] Painting (exhaust manifolds) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 14:43:54 CDT From: "bill odoherty" I know powder coating has to be cured in an oven at 400 deg. F but is only recommended to
withstand heat up to 350 deg. F. The intake would likely be all right but would burn off at the
cross over unless you block it off. I would definently not recommend it on the exhaust
manifolds. Try using a high temp. coating (1200 deg. F) on the exhaust manifolds. Bill6t5gto Subject: Re: [GTO] Painting (exhaust manifolds) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 16:20:22 -0500 From: Bill Horwath Scott... I think they may have been referring to "Jet" coating the exhaust/headers. The following web
sites may be of use: http://www.performancecoatings.com/ http://www.durakote.com/ http://www.hpcoatings.com/ Eastwood sell a pretty good paint for exhaust manifolds. See: http://www.eastwoodcompany.com/ Also, for the engine block (especially the heads) you may want to consider the high temp paint
offered by POR15. http://www.por15.com/ Good luck... bill Subject: Re: Re: [GTO] Painting (exhaust manifolds) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 22:21:52 -0400 From: rjjsmith I used a paint rated to 1400 degrees - from POR. Highest I could find. (I'm a few weeks away
from getting it running, though, so I can't give you any results.) Bob '65 Convertible Subject: Re: [GTO] Painting (exhaust manifolds) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 05:39:40 EDT From: Goats3 Eastwood is supposed to make a manifold paint that is easy to use and also durable. Kenny L Subject: [GTO] POR 15 for Exhaust Manifolds Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 09:13:32 -0400 From: "Collingwood, Mike" List: Saw a set on exhaust manifolds on 70 GTO last night a local cruise event. They had been
coated with POR-15 in gray shade. Really looked good. Has anyone else used this for manifolds
and will it stay on for a least a year at a time? Also, where can I buy it. Received an
unsolicited Eastwood catalog last week and noted that POR-15 wasn't listed anywhere. Mike Subject: RE: [GTO] POR 15 for Exhaust Manifolds Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 09:22:00 -0400 From: "Ron Lawrence" Mike, You can contact them directly at http://www.por-15.com/ or I see the stuff for sale at shows
from time to time. That's where I got mine. Ron Subject: RE: [GTO] POR 15 for Exhaust Manifolds Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:31:22 CST From: Maxwell Edison (majoring in medicine) << List: Saw a set on exhaust manifolds on 70 GTO last night a local cruise event. They had
been coated with POR-15 in gray shade. Really looked good. >> POR-15 or POR-20? POR-20 is the "high-temp" version of POR-15 and is supposed to be good to
something like 1200-1400F. The URL Ron provided should give you lots of info. Brad Subject: [GTO] POR 15 for Exhaust Manifolds Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 12:12:52 EDT From: R92Z28 Mike, POR-15 has their own catalog. The paint for manifolds is actually called POR-20. It comes
in Brilliant Aluminum, Factory Manifold Gray, and Black Velvet. Phone no. is 800-457-6715.
Internet: http://www.por15.com They also have correct factory engine enamel colors. I'm
planning to pick some up at fall Carlisle the weekend of the 30th. Raymon Subject: Re: [GTO] POR 15 for Exhaust Manifolds Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 13:22:04 EDT From: Olgoat7 << Has anyone else used this for manifolds and will it stay on for a least a year at a time?
Also, where can I buy it. >> Mike, Definitely go for it. I used their factory manifold gray on the HO manifolds in my '67. Stuff
went on nice, had a nice color and after heating all brush strokes disappeared as stated. After
2 years the stuff looked as fresh as the day I put it on (wish the engine blue stayed as nice).
Don't know if they have more than one size but if you plan on only doing one set get the small
can. I did two coats on mine and still had half a can left over. Jim Subject: Re: [GTO] POR 15 for Exhaust Manifolds Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:23:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen Amadei << Definitely go for it. I used their factory manifold gray on the HO manifolds in my '67.
Stuff went on nice, had a nice color and after heating all brush strokes disappeared as stated.
After 2 years the stuff looked as fresh as the day I put it on (wish the engine blue stayed as
nice). Don't know if they >> Can the POR-20 be used on engines? What colors does it come in? ----Steve Subject: Re: [GTO] POR 15 for Exhaust Manifolds Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 02:02:55 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Can the POR-20 be used on engines? What colors does it come in? ----Steve >> Steve, POR-15 has Engine paint also. It's guaranteed not to chip, peel, discolor, or burn-off!
I'm getting Pontiac metallic blue for my 428. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] POR 15 for Exhaust Manifolds Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 02:09:06 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << List: Saw a set on exhaust manifolds on 70 GTO last night a local cruise event. They had
been coated with POR-15 in gray shade. Really looked good. Has anyone else used this for
manifolds and will it stay on for a least a year at a time? Also, where can I buy it. Received
an unsolicited Eastwood catalog last week and noted that POR-15 wasn't listed anywhere. Mike >> Mike, I haven't tried it yet but just got my POR-15 for my frame yesterday. I am going to try
to get the frame painted this weekend. Can't wait to see it all done! Wish me luck. Goatman [finally getting to work on the Goat!] Subject: Re: [GTO] POR 15 for Exhaust Manifolds Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 12:50:56 EDT From: Olgoat7 << Can the POR-20 be used on engines? What colors does it come in? >> It can be used on engines but the surface should be clean, bare metal for best results.
Unfortunately it only comes in aluminum, gray or black. << Steve, POR-15 has Engine paint also. It's guaranteed not to chip, peel, discolor, or
burn-off! I'm getting Pontiac metallic blue for my 428. >> I've talked to many folks who have used the POR-15 engine paint and were not impressed at all
(read: throw the guarantee in the garbage). I guess to get the proper Pontiac metallic blue you
have to put on a silver coat first then the blue. From what I've been told it doesn't match
very well when done and burns off just as fast as any of the other engine paints. Although
most people have said it just discolors to a light silver instead of rust. Jim Subject: [GTO] NEED HELP WITH BUILDING THE MOTOR!!!!!!! Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:10:11 EDT From: RAMAIR406 OK I finally ordered my engine kit and am ready to assemble. This is not the part I need the
help with. The part I need help with is my compression ratio. I’m told its a gonna be a problem
on the street. Anticipated is 10.25 -10:75:1. No one can tell me for sure. I am running
Speedpro flattop forged pistons, regular Felpro headgasket, #62 heads. Deck height is unknown.
Most say its gonna ping like crazy even with premium gas. Others say don’t worry about it. I’ve
done it a hundred times blah blah blah. I don’t know who to believe. Besides a thicker head
gasket, dishing the pistons and smoothing out the ridge in the chamber. What can I do to reduce
pinging????????????? thanks -- scott Subject: Re: [GTO] NEED HELP WITH BUILDING THE MOTOR!!!!!!! Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 18:16:49 -0700 From: rickgto << OK I finally ordered my engine kit and am ready to assemble. This is not the part I need the
help with. The part I need help with is my compression ratio. I’m told its a gonna be a problem
on the street. Anticipated is 10.25 -10:75:1. No one can tell me for sure. I am running
Speedpro flattop forged pistons, regular Felpro headgasket, #62 heads. Deck height is unknown.
Most say its gonna ping like crazy even with premium gas. Others say don’t worry about it. I’ve
done it a hundred times blah blah blah. I don’t know who to believe. Besides a thicker head
gasket, dishing the pistons and smoothing out the ridge in the chamber. What can I do to reduce
pinging????????????? thanks -- scott >> A stock (unmixed) deck is normally anywhere from .025-.040 from the factory with stock pistons.
If you still have one of your old pistons, measure pin height of it vs the Speed Pro. Top of
piston to top of wristpin hole. If the new is the same or less, don’t worry about CR. You’ll be
fine. If it's more than +.020, I’d put the crank/bearings in for a test fit with 1 piston/rod
ass'y on each bank and check deck. It’s easy enough to do. Lay in your #1 and #5 mains, (no
rope seal, etc.) in the block and corresponding caps, lay the crank in and snug main caps on 1
and 5. Install #1 and #5 piston/rod assemblies without rings and check it. Either way you
shouldn’t have a problem as 62's run between 75 and 77 cc in stock form. Felpro blues will give
a .040-.042 crush and depending on if you have the 4 relief (400) or 8 relief (retrofit)
pistons 6-12 cc, your CR will be more than safe for the street. Anything less than 225@.050 on
the cam, keep total timing in the 32-34 degree range and with 225+ in the 34-36 range. The
earlier coming all in a tad later because low rpm cyl. pressure is higher. Remember, timing and
jetting are critical to the potential for detonation. More so than a marginally high CR. Rick Subject: Re: [GTO] NEED HELP WITH BUILDING THE MOTOR!!!!!!! Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:03:05 EDT From: RAMAIR << 225@.050 on the cam, keep total timing in the 32-34 degree range and with 225+ in the 34-36
range. The earlier coming all in a tad later because low rpm cyl pressure is higher. Remember,
timing and jetting are critical to the potential for detonation. More so than a marginally high
CR. Rick >> When you say 225@.050. Do you mean when I do a compression test on it????? Subject: Re: [GTO] NEED HELP WITH BUILDING THE MOTOR!!!!!!! Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 21:01:49 EDT From: PONTIAC475 << When you say 225@.050. Do you mean when I do a compression test on it????? >> No, this is the amount of duration from 0.050 lift on either side of the cam lobe. This is your
true duration, because advertised duration almost means nothing. Well nothing concrete. Joey Subject: [GTO] R&R engine help Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 02:31:29 EDT From: RAMAIR406 OK I’m R&R-ing my motor next week. This will be my first one done mostly by myself. Could
someone please give me the most logical order in which bolts to remove and components to take
off. Exhaust is not a factor because it has manifolds right now and I’m puttin in headers with
the new motor. Now I know on these motors there’s not much to it, but I wanna jump right in
with some kinda order in which to do things. I will have access to a lift and air tools while
doing this so it should be rather easy. My order would probably be: 1. Radiator and trans
lines. 2. Power steering assembly off to the side somewhere. 3. Probably go under and take out
starter. 4. Then converter and bellhousing bolts. 5. Zap off manifold bolts. Probably break
them, but it doesn’t matter. 6. Probably mount bolts (will the motor fall if I undo these? Or
should I wait up top when I have the picker hooked up?? 7. Yank it out. Am I missing anything
???????? Anyone care to change up the order or add something I missed??? tanks allot -- scott Subject: Re: [GTO] R&R engine help Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 03:55:33 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << OK I’m R&R-ing my motor next week. This will be my first one done mostly by myself. Could
someone please give me the most logical order in which bolts to remove and components to take
off. Exhaust is not a factor because it has manifolds right now and I’m puttin in headers with
the new motor. Now I know on these motors there’s not much to it, but I wanna jump right in
with some kinda order in which to do things. I will have access to a lift and air tools while
doing this so it should be rather easy. My order would probably be: 1. Radiator and trans.
lines. 2. Power steering assembly off to the side somewhere. 3. Probably go under and take out
starter. 4. Then converter and bellhousing bolts. 5. Zap off manifold bolts. Probably break
them, but it doesn’t matter. 6. Probably mount bolts (will the motor fall if I undo these? >> NO! << or should I wait up top when I have the picker hooked up??) >> I undo them last thing then yank engine and tranny together. Install engine with tranny on it.
Your asking for a nightmare if you leave the tranny in the car. Find a driveshaft yoke to stick
in the tranny when you pull the driveshaft. Since your going to headers, leave the oil filter
mount off until the engine is in. It will get in the way of the headers. Do not bolt headers to
engine first, it will not go in. Lay the headers down in the chassis and maybe wire the back
end of them up so they sit level. Keep checking that they are not binding up when dropping the
engine in. You will need at least 1 more person to help you guide it in, 2 would be better. 1
on each side of the engine, guiding it, and 1 to lower the hoist [ a very steady hand is
required here]. Once the engine is almost in place, stick a floor jack under the rear of the
tranny and level it out then the engine should drop in pretty easy. The problem with leaving the tranny in is that you usually have to have the engine setting in
it's mounts before it will line up with the bellhousing. But you cant get the engine into the
mounts without it being mated up to the bellhousing. Kind of a catch 22. It can be done but it
is a huge pain in the ass! Much easier to R&R the engine and tranny together. Don't forget the
fuel lines and ground straps hidden on the back side of the heads! Have fun! ;~) 7. Yank it out. << Am I missing anything???????? Anyone care to change up the order or add something I missed?? tanks allot -- scott >> That should pretty well do it. Did we forget anything anyone? Goatman Subject: [GTO] engine details. Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 05:48:04 -0500 From: William Weeden Hey, I'm putting my top end of the engine back together for the GT-37 and want to know if there
should be one of those hoist eyelet hook things that bolts on thru the timing chain cover. My
'69 GTO has one. Did they put 'em on in '71 too? This engine had a lot of little detail stuff
missing and I want to put it back stock-appearing as long as I'm in here. Any other tips for a guy about to put a timing chain cover and intake back on? Bolt the cover
to the block and then oil pan or intake? Bolt the water pump to the timing cover first? What
gasket to glue where? To RTV or not to RTV? How about a step by step from someone who's been there? The intake is presently off too. Thanks in advance. Bill, '69 Judge '71 GT-37 Subject: RE: [GTO] engine details. Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 11:37:09 -0400 From: CharlesB Water pump can go on after the cover. Don't forget those 2 steel-like bushings that go inside.
And make sure they're as clean as possible with no signs of rust anywhere inside. Intake goes
on last. And when you do, pull it into the grommet which seals the water passage between it &
the water pump with that odd sized slightly long bolt before tightening any other intake bolts.
I believe it gets torqued to 12 lbs. Check me on that. This will pull the intake laterally in
tight for a good seal. Even then, I've always had a problem trying to get that damn thing to
seal right. For where that round grommet sits, clean both sides of the depression really really
good. If you're lucky, you'll only have to pull it apart again 2 or 3 times & only break the
bolt in as many times. (FYI, I'm only HALF joking here - at least that's MY experience here).
For the gaskets, I've always used that red spray-tack stuff & haven't had a problem. CB Subject: Re: [GTO] engine details. Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 01:45:09 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << For where that round grommet sits, clean both sides of the depression really really good. If
you're lucky, you'll only have to pull it apart again 2 or 3 times & only break the bolt in as
many times. >> Use elephant snot [3M super weatherstrip Adhesive] on the little intake to timing cover o-ring.
That will hold it in place and I have never had one leak with this stuff. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] engine details. step-by-step Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 03:57:47 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Any other tips for a guy about to put a timing chain cover and intake back on? Bolt the
cover to the block and then oil pan or intake? >> Bolt the oil pan up first, after the timing cover bolts are tight. Make sure the dowel pins
that center the timing cover are in the block. Grease the front seal good before you put the
cover on. Much easier to do without the crank in the way. Then get all of your intake bolts
started, but not tight, and torque the timing cover to intake bolt first as CB said. CB is
correct on the torque of 12 lbs. Then torque the intake bolts as per: TORQUE SPECS <-----Click Here!! and let them sit for a
few minutes and re-torque them. Keep re-torqueing them until they turn no more. Let them sit
for a few minutes in between torqueings. I have had to re-torque some gaskets as many as 5 times! << Bolt the water pump to the timing cover first? >> No need to, it's easy enough to put on afterwards. << What gasket to glue where? To RTV or not to RTV? >> I would not use RTV as it helps the cork gasket to squeeze out. I would use something sticky
like [boy, I know I'm going to catch hell for this one but here goes] Elephant snot [I know,
it's a bitch to get off later, but isn't the idea NOT to have to do it again! Besides, laquer
thinner dissolves it pretty easy] or that Fel-Pro blue brush tach or the Permatex brown brush
tach stuff. All that stuff is sticky enough to hold the cork gasket in place. Stick the gasket to the oil
pan and let it set for a few minutes so the gasket does not move easy. Use the same stuff to
seal the cover to block gasket and glue it to the block first, the dowel pins and the two studs
up top should hold it in place. Use what ever sealer you decide to go with SPARINGLY! Remember
it's going to squeeze out into a layer about .001 thick! Everything else put on will be
squished into the engine. Use Elephant snot on the intake/timing cover o-ring seal. A thin
layer of RTV or brush tach around the intake water ports and intake runners wouldn't hurt
either. MAKE SURE you use the correct intake gasket on the correct side! If you are using a 67
-71 intake on 67-71 heads, then you need the intake gasket with the large ex. crossover opening
on the passenger side head. If you put the small ex. opening gasket here, you will have an
exhaust leak. If using 67-71 intake on 72 & up heads, you will need the Fel-Pro high perf.
intake gasket # 1233 which comes with different center plates so you can use any year intake
from 65 on with any year head from 65-79. If you use this gasket set, you will need to trim the
back end of the passenger side gasket so it will clear the water outlet for the heater hose.
DO NOT trim this gasket any more than you need to make it clear! If you trim it too short you
will have an oil leak! Believe me on this one, I know from experience! Ruined a new set of
gaskets! At least I caught the mistake before I bolted the intake on and had oil everywhere! << How about a step by step from someone who's been there? >> Was that step-by-step enough for you? Good luck Bill! << The intake is presently off too. >> Not for long! Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Re: Basic Rebuild Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 20:48:28 EDT From: JagginRoun Rick, Yeah, really no argument here. I really kinda hate to just patch things up. I’d really like to get a couple more years out of the motor though. My plans call for going
through the interior first, doing some general cleaning and painting of the engine compartment
and underneath this winter, paint and body work the following fall/winter and by then I hope to
have located the correct engine for the car. I really hate to sink any money into this motor,
as it'll basically be a throw away. I don't drive the car very hard, just get on it once in a
while. By the way, what causes the ring lands to break? There's next to no ridge in the cylinder. Thanks a lot, Matt Dillon 66 Convt. Subject: Re: [GTO] Re: Basic Rebuild Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 20:09:43 -0700 From: rickgto << Rick, Yeah, really no argument here. I really kinda hate to just patch things up. I’d really like to get a couple more years out of the motor though. My plans call for going
through the interior first, doing some general cleaning and painting of the engine compartment
and underneath this winter, paint and body work the following fall/winter and by then I hope to
have located the correct engine for the car. I really hate to sink any money into this motor,
as it'll basically be a throw away. I don't drive the car very hard, just get on it once in a
while. By the way, what causes the ring lands to break? There's next to no ridge in the cylinder. Thanks a lot, Matt Dillon 66 Convt. >> That's my point. You can most likely "patch" it and get 50k more miles out of it, reliably.
Short on performance, but reliable. The ring lands break because of detonation. Pontiac and
detonation are synonymous with politicians and BS. It’s a given. Chamber design, deck heights
are the major factor. A 7-1 CR Pontiac will detonate and destroy itself if not tuned properly.
By today’s standards though, they can be built to survive with decent CR ratios. Have to go
now, seeing 2 screens. Rick Subject: [GTO] Pre-luber (or old distributor) needed Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 22:57:40 -0500 From: "Phil Shaffer" I seem to remember someone was selling a mess of old distributors that could be used to
pre-lube the engine before first firing it. If that's you (or if you have one cheap) could you
e-mail me off-list? Also, did anyone ever make a regular tool for that or does everyone trash distributors for it? Thanks, Phil Subject: Re: [GTO] Pre-luber (or old distributor) needed Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 00:50:58 EDT From: RAMAIR406 Easy homemade tool for priming a motor is to remove everything from the distributor, so all
that is left is the shaft. Weld a 1/2 inch socket to the top of it and waalaa!!! Insert your
1/2 inch air gun into the socket end. You suddenly have a primer tool. Subject: Re: [GTO] Pre-luber (or old distributor) needed Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 01:24:57 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << I seem to remember someone was selling a mess of old distributors that could be used to
pre-lube the engine before first firing it. If that's you (or if you have one cheap) could you
e-mail me off-list? Also, did anyone ever make a regular tool for that or does everyone trash distributors for it? Thanks, Phil >> Phil, it is very easy to make. I took an old points dist. and ground the gear down flush with
the solid part. Then, I pried the centrifugal weight assembly off with pliers. This left me
with a 1/2" shaft to chuck a reversible drill onto. You can grind this end down to 3/8 if you
don't have a 1/2" drill [as I did, as I don't]. If I remember correctly, I had to tack weld
some washers [to act as thrust washers] to the shaft at the top end of the distributor housing
to keep the shaft from moving down. Then, the part that makes this great tool work the best
is to paint it with Pontiac Metallic Blue engine paint!!!! My 12 volt cordless works great for
priming. Remember to spin the drill counter-clockwise when priming. I usually get 50-60 lbs.
with it. After you get oil pressure, have someone crank the engine over by hand [or ratchet] so
the lifters will pump up. Usually takes several minutes to get oil to the rockers. Good luck. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Pre-luber (or old distributor) needed Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:41:36 -0500 From: "Dirk" I made a tool out of a old dist. Turned off the large area where the points etc. mount, took
the plate off the shaft, put a hex on end of shaft, attach a 1/2 drill to shaft and clamp down
dist shaft, its stiff enough that you put the drill on and let it stop against the firewall
while I sit inside watching oil press gauge. Dirk Subject: [GTO] pre-lubers 4/s Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 00:47:59 EDT From: RAMAIR406 I remember on Ebay a guy was selling a priming tool. He may have more. Think he was gettin 10-20$ for them. Probably worth it after the work to find and manufacture
one of your own. His email is: TATODD@AOL.COM Subject: [GTO] Umph to a 400? Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:41:31 EDT From: A6464NUT What's the best way to increase the horsepower and performance of a plain Jane GTO 400 while
utilizing as many Pontiac parts as possible? Cam change, head swap, tuning, etc. Harry Subject: Re: [GTO] Umph to a 400? Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:48:44 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << What's the best way to increase the horsepower and performance of a plain Jane GTO 400 while
utilizing as many Pontiac parts as possible? Cam change, head swap, tuning, etc. Harry >> Depending on what year you have, depends on how much you need to do. If it is 68-70 then you
won't need to do much. Maybe put a new cam in it [068 is a good all around cam if you want to
stay with stock stuff]. The 68-71 Q-jet intake is a very good intake so stay with that if you
have it. If you have a 67 intake then either fill the heatriser holes under the carb or plug
them up. Or get a 68-71 intake, these don't have those passages. Get your distributor recurved by a reputable recurver that knows Pontiacs. This is one of
the biggest factors of stock performance. If your advance weights are stuck or the springs are
too stiff, you are loosing a lot of power. You want somewhere around 34-36 degrees of total
advance all in by 2600-2800 rpm. If you have a Q-jet on it, look at it. It should have a front fuel feed and the secondary
air valves should have little square notches [oh, probably about 1/2 inch square or so] cut in
them on the front edge of them. If yours has this stuff then you already have a performance
Q-jet and just some minor tweaking and it's good to go. If you have low compression heads on it, then look for some #16, 62, 12, 13, 48's just to
name a few. If you have a 67 400 block then 670's are good. Try to avoid using 670's on 68 and
up blocks. The valve relief chamfers in the cylinders are cut in different places for the open
chamber heads. Maybe consider some 1.65 rocker arms. A small gain can be had with them. Good luck! Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Umph to a 400? Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 13:12:34 GMT From: "Pete Judge" You say to go to a 1.65 rocker? I’ve been wondering what do you have to do in order to the
swap..... Guideplates, pushrods? I have #12 heads and I have ported and cc'd them. Pete Stack 70 Judge Subject: Re: [GTO] Umph to a 400? Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 00:20:47 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << You say to go to a 1.65 rocker? I’ve been wondering what do you have to do in order to the
swap..... Guideplates, pushrods? I have #12 heads and I have ported and cc'd them. Pete Stack 70 Judge >> Just unscrew the stock bottle neck rocker studs and install BB Chevy 7/16 studs. They screw
right in. That’s about it. If you run a factory cam besides the RA IU, then your springs should
be OK. You can run the stock pushrods and guideplates. Just check for pushrod to head
interference where the pushrod comes through the head. They usually won't hit with lifts under
.500 but I would check them anyway. I ran .525 lift without interference on my #16's. Goatman Subject: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 23:14:51 EDT From: MycoPhoric OK, I got my new intake manifold and my loving father blasted off all the ugly yellow paint. So,
off I went to the local Wal-Mart to get some engine paint. I found some paint it was...
Dupli-Color engine enamel I am not sure the part# but it said Pontiac blue right on the cap...
After I started painting with it I compared it to my existing blue paint and found it to not
match at all... gggrrrrr I know that the engine has been out of my car before, but maybe the
person painted it GM blue of eeekkk F*rd Blue!! Now I was wondering if the correct blue is the
light Pontiac blue or the mid blue that was on the motor??? Steve Rautio 69 LeMans convertible "w/ funny colored engine" Subject: RE: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 23:44:59 -0400 From: "roman" Well, for 69, Pontiac painted the GTO's a "Metallic Silver Blue". As a matter of fact, I just
painted the engine in my 69 and that's the color the GTO Restoration as well as the place where
I bought the paint specify. Roman 69 GTO Toronto, Ontario Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:03:57 -0400 From: "Warren Hanbury" You can buy the Pontiac Metallic Silver Blue paint at "Pep Boys" if you have one in your area. Warren Subject: RE: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:10:42 -0400 From: "Ron Lawrence" I'd suggest PlastiKote (sp?) Pontiac Metallic Blue... PN 277 or 228 IIRC. I used it: See pictures at: http://members.zdial.com/~lawrence/gto/process.htm Ron Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:20:23 EDT From: Jwroblesk << I'd suggest PlastiKote (sp?) Pontiac Metallic Blue... PN 277 or 228 IIRC. I used it: See pictures at: http://members.zdial.com/~lawrence/gto/process.htm >> Ron, Have you had the engine running yet? Wondering how long the paint will last. Joe Subject: RE: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:27:58 -0400 From: "Ron Lawrence" Joe, The engine has run, but not on the street yet. CAM break in, and various other startups to test
stuff out. So far, very, very minor discoloration on the exhaust ports... but what else is new
:-) It's actually very easy to touch up with a paint brush. Just spray some in the cap and dab the
new paint on. Works great. Ron 70 GTO 76 Ventura Subject: RE: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:22:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Brad Hill << I'd suggest PlastiKote (sp?) Pontiac Metallic Blue...PN 277 or 228 IIRC. I used it: See pictures at: http://members.zdial.com/~lawrence/gto/process.htm Ron >> I've had good results with the PlastiKote as well. It seems to be a little more heat resistant
than that of others I've tried. Every bit helps. ===== Brad '68 Ram Air GTO Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 01:39:59 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << OK, I got my new intake manifold and my loving father blasted off all the ugly yellow paint.
So off I went to the local Wal-Mart to get some engine paint. I found some paint it was...
Dupli-Color engine enamel I am not sure the part# but it said Pontiac blue right on the cap...
After I started painting with it I compared it to my existing blue paint and found it to not
match at all... gggrrrrr I know that the engine has been out of my car before but maybe the
person painted it GM blue of eeekkk F*rd Blue!! Now I was wondering if the correct blue is the
light Pontiac blue or the mid blue that was on the motor??? Steve Rautio 69 LeMans convertible "w/ funny colored engine" >> Steve, up until 65 they used a sky blue paint. From 66-71 maybe 1970, they used a silver/blue
metallic. After 70 or 71 they used a darker, non metallic blue. You should be using silver/blue
metallic for sure for 69. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 01:53:14 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Ron, Have you had the engine running yet? Wondering how long the paint will last. Joe >> It wont take long to burn off the ex. and the crossover. I found that using high temp engine
primer AFTER cleaning the block with brake cleaner or lacquer thinner or metal prep then
painting the metallic silver/blue, it takes much longer to burn. Matter of fact, after 10
months it is only slightly discolored! I used the Plasticote for both primer and paint. Got
them at Pep Boys. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 07:57:23 EDT From: Jwroblesk << I found that using high temp engine primer AFTER cleaning the block with brake >> Paul, I've never heard of high temp engine primer? What brand and where can I get it? Joe Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:16:38 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Paul, I've never heard of high temp engine primer? What brand and where can I get it? Joe >> Joe, I got it from Pep Boys and it was Plasti-Kote. Says it resists heat to 500 degrees. The
paint was the same brand. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 01:42:49 EDT From: MycoPhoric Well I think I go the older sky blue color paint.. and it is on there to stay for a couple
reasons. Time and Money.. gggrrrrrr Don't have the time to strip off wrong paint and repaint it
and right now I had to borrow money to get the gaskets for the thing. Steve Rautio 69 LeMans Convertible *now with multicolored engine Subject: RE: [GTO] Pontiac Engine Paint Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 08:58:03 -0400 From: CharlesB Yeah, but it's probably gonna suck when you're staring at it after it's in. Then it's gonna be REALLY hard to paint it. CB Subject: [GTO] Engine Book Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 08:12:05 -0500 From: "larry s schofield" Can any one suggest a good "How to build a Pontiac Engine" book? I have never rebuilt a Pontiac
motor, and the last motor I helped rebuild was in 1979. I have decided to go with a 1967 HO
motor. I will only be driving the car on fair weather outings, no racing. Should I even
consider spending the extra money to have the motor balanced, or would this be a waste of time? Thanks, Larry 67 conv. Subject: Re: [GTO] Engine Book Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:01:25 -0500 From: "Chris Bilich" The 2 books that helped me build my 455 this summer were: "Engine Builder's Handbook" Tom
Monroe "Engine Blueprinting" Rick Voegelin The both tell step-by-step info on the whole process, from beginning to end. Neither are
Pontiac-specific, but still covered the spectrum of what you'd encounter in an engine....most
of the Pontiac-specific variations were mentioned here or there. They cost me $8-10 each at
Half-Price Books. Good luck! Chris PS - mine runs great, so the books must have been worth it! Subject: Re: [GTO] Engine Book Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 02:37:48 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Can any one suggest a good "How to build a Pontiac Engine" book? I have never rebuilt a
Pontiac motor, and the last motor I helped rebuild was in 1979. I have decided to go with a
1967 HO motor. I will only be driving the car on fair weather outings, no racing. Should I even
consider spending the extra money to have the motor balanced, or would this be a waste of time? Thanks, Larry 67 conv. >> Larry, I have found that H.O. Racing Specialties "Pontiac High Performance engine design and
blueprint assembly" to be very good. Also H.O. makes the "Pontiac Racers and High Performance
Handbook" which is very good for parts identification and procedures. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Engine Book Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 20:29:07 CST From: "Maxwell Edison, majoring in medicine" << Larry, I have found that H.O. Racing Specialties "Pontiac High Performance engine design and
blueprint assembly" to be very good. Also H.O. makes the "Pontiac Racers and High Performance
Handbook" which is very good for parts identification and procedures. >> The HP Handbook is a Pete McCarthy & John Angeles book... Brad Subject: Re: [GTO] Engine Book Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:46:09 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Larry, I have found that H.O. Racing Specialties "Pontiac High Performance engine design and
blueprint assembly" to be very good. Also H.O. makes the "Pontiac Racers and High Performance
Handbook" which is very good for parts identification and procedures. The HP Handbook is a Pete McCarthy & John Angeles book... Brad >> Oops, sorry, your right. Thanks Brad for catching that! Guess I can't read when I am tired! Goatman Subject: [GTO] Engine break-in procedure. Was-Black oil Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 23:17:04 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << Speaking of break-in, I'm looking for a good break-in recipe for my 455. What say ye? >> First, make absolutely sure that the rockers are adjusted properly [if adjustable], then static
time it on #1 cylinder [12-14 degrees before TDC, compression stroke]. To do this, get the
balancer timing marks pointing at 12-14 degrees BTDC of compression stroke and put a phillips
screw driver [or equivalent] in the #1 plug wire and turn the key on and turn the distributor
clockwise until you see the plug wire spark. Turn it back and forth until you dial it in. HEI
and other electronic distributors need to be turned fairly quick in order to produce a spark,
where as points dist. will spark at very low speed. Now your timing is set advanced so it will
fire right up. IF YOU STATIC TIME it with the balancer set at 0 degrees, the timing WILL be
retarded and it won't fire up good. Make sure the firing order is wired up counter-clockwise! OK, now that the timing is set, make sure the carb is full of gas. DO NOT crank the engine
over until the carb fills up. THIS is the fastest way to trash a cam. If you have to, fill the
carb bowls via the vent tubes with a small syringe or something. Once you have gas, and the
timing is set, and ONLY after you have these two things ready, your are ready to start it. Oh,
yeah, make sure the battery is fully charged. Double check the radiator level and keep 1-2 gallons of water on hand. Pump the gas once or twice and fire it up. It is critical that the engine fire up within a few
seconds! If it doesn't, or if you hear backfires, STOP cranking and find out what is wrong. If
it fires right up, IMMEDIATELY take the rpm up to 2000-2500 rpm. Set the idle up to stay there,
and let it run there for 20-25 minutes. DO NOT let it idle during this period. The cam relies
on oil slinging off the crank to keep it oiled, so if it idles it will not get sufficient oil
and will take a lobe right off. Check the radiator and refill it. Keep a close eye on the oil
pressure and water temp gauges. It may want to get up to 210-220 during break-in, but don't
worry, it will be OK once it is all done. If it starts to get hotter, shut it off. The rockers may be a little noisy for a few minutes but should quiet down within 10
minutes. If you primed it real good first, they should sound fine. Check your ignition timing right away to make sure it is running around 30-34 degrees at
that fast idle. If it is too retarded, the exhaust will start glowing red and it will run
hotter. GOOD LUCK! Goatman Subject: [GTO] Compression test? Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 07:25:48 -0500 From: "Chris Bilich" How can I figure out my approximate compression ration on my 455, while it’s assembled and in
the car? I'm trying to find out why I could only run 15.0 at the track with my brand new
4-billion-dollar motor. I had the machinist set it up for 9.5:1 compression, but I'm feeling
like I'm probably getting 8:1 or something like that. Thanks! Chris Subject: Re: [GTO] Compression test? Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:50:45 EDT From: GoatmanPaulC << How can I figure out my approximate compression ration on my 455, while it’s assembled and
in the car? I'm trying to find out why I could only run 15.0 at the track with my brand new
4-billion-dollar motor. I had the machinist set it up for 9.5:1 compression, but I'm feeling
like I'm probably getting 8:1 or something like that. Thanks! Chris >> Chris, don't feel bad. It's hard to go out and run 13's right off the bat. It takes lots of
work and time trials to get them down there. The fastest 455 GTO's in stock form barely ran low
15's. The 455 is a torque monster, not a high horsepower engine. Keep working at it and you
will get it down. Jim Thompson from the list is running a 455 Tri-power in his 66 GTO. It's
basically bone stock with a 4 speed. He has only been in the 13's a couple of times. Most of
the time it is in the 14.2-14.3 range. That's about 100 MPH! These guys that say they are running 12's and 11's with their mostly stock 455's are either
lying or they have spent many, many hours dialing them in to get them there. It's a lot of hard
work and it takes time to get them there. They don't just go out and run 12's right off the bat. One guy in our club has a 65 GTO with a
462 that I built for him. I ported the heads, put in roller rockers, nice cam, the whole nine
yards and he thought he would run at least low 12's if not high 11's [judging by other's cars
with similar set-up] right off the bat and was highly disappointed when he ran mid 14's. He had
traction problems, then carb problems, then distributor problems. He has got it into the low
13's by now, but still without carb problems. We now have his carb fixed and he hopes to run in
the 12's now, but he has spent many hours at the track trying to get the bugs worked out. His
car is very fast for a street car, but he wants it faster. It's not easy. Take your time and
DON'T get discouraged. 15's is still fast! Most GTO’s would barely break into the 15's from the
factory and they were still fast. You should be able to work it down to low 14's if not high
13's if you work at it and play with tire pressure, timing, jetting etc. Don't get your hopes
up on 12's It's very hard to do! A lot of full out race cars don't ever make it into the 12's.
We won't think less of you if you don't run 13's. One guy in our club with a 67 GTO has a $4500
Bruce Fulper engine with Edelbrock heads on it and all the goodies and he has only ran high
12's a couple of times so far. So, don't feel bad! Also, what heads do you have on your engine? What pistons, cam etc.? Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Compression test? Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 18:36:12 -0500 From: "Chris Bilich" I hear ya on all that. I'm not really all that discouraged. I don't care if it takes me a year
to get peak performance out of this motor. I love working on the car, solving problems, and
such. That's why I have it...not just for a chick-magnet. :) I just can't afford to keep putting money into it. Time, I can find. Money.... well, I eat a
lot of bean sandwiches from time to time. That's why I'm always concerned with doing it right
the first time, or at least minimizing the second-try costs. Paying for college doesn't allow
most people to have the kind of car I've built.... but that's why it's so great... cause I work
for it everyday. Enough preaching... Here's what's under the hood: Engine: 455 (.040 over =~465) Heads: 7K3 (2.11/1.77, 3 angle job) Cam: Melling SPC-3 (copy of 744 RAIII cam) Rockers: 1.65 Harland-Sharp Roller rockers (.447"/.447" lift) Ignition: HEI (12V, not the resistor-wire 9V), Summit recurve kit (still needs to be dialed
in, I'm sure). Timing: about 11 deg. initial, no idea about final. Tranny: TH350 Converter: TCI 11" Breakaway (2400 stall) Gears: 2.87" open diff. (yes, this part sucks....) Rear tire: 255/60/15 BFG Radial T/A Weight: stock '72 LeMans/GTO coupe + spare tire + subwoofer + tools = maybe 3800-3900 lbs? The shop purchased the complete engine kit, and I did the assembly. I know checked the bore to
indeed be 4.190". The Federal Mogul forged pistons were milled .017" (enough to clean off the
"040" that should have been stamped on them), because the block had already been zero-decked.
He said the piston was coming out of the hole, so he chopped them down. I said OK, cause I
didn't know any different (my first engine). Maybe this was good, maybe bad. The Hastings rings
included said .040 over on the box, and when I checked the gaps, they were considerably larger
than the .003"/inch of bore that my book said to gap them at. Most were .020 to over .025
inches, rather than the .012-.014 I was shooting for. So, I think I might be leaking
compression out of the cylinders, or maybe getting not as much compression as I should have
because of the milled pistons. Thanks!! Chris Subject: Re: [GTO] Compression test? Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 22:19:25 -0700 From: J Tatum << Timing: about 11 deg. initial, no idea about final. >> Find out! Final advance plays a much larger role in performance than initial advance. Where it
starts to make the curve, how much it moves, and were the final is very important. Too little
will cause the engine to not run up to it's potential and too much will cause it to live a
short life. It all depends upon the shape of the piston dome as well as the combustion chamber
as to what final advance is best for a given engine. My Hemi likes 32 degrees total while my
466 Ford likes 38. I have run domed piston Boss 302s and they liked 42 degrees total. The best
way to find out what is best is to go to the strip and read the time slips while you move the
total timing up or down by 2 degree increments. I believe in letting the car tell me what it
wants. A good starting point for a flat topped Poncho would be 36 degrees total. Try to go up
and down from there and see what the car tells you it wants. << Gears: 2.87" open diff. (yes, this part sucks....) >> This is something I would get rid of 1st thing. It does not match the rest of the combo, unless
you are out for top end speed on a long stretch of highway.I had one of those one time.
Modified 1970 428 SCJ mustang 4 speed with 2.8's. Can you say; "smell the 11" clutch burn at
160+?" << because the block had already been zero-decked. He said the piston was coming out of the
hole, so he chopped them down. >> I like a 0 deck and even a positive deck engine! Living on the edge with a positive deck
engine. One must take into account, rod composition and stretch at a given RPM as well as head
gasket thickness at compression, and rod bearing clearance. What fun! Of course now days it
depends upon the final compression ratio if you want to run pump gas. I have seen some very
fast 9.5-1 BBC's so compression ratio is nice but not necessary to go fast... Your biggest enemy right now is the weight of the car + the high gear ratio. Fix the gears. How low? Easy. 1) Decide what the maximum RPM of the engine should safely be going through the traps on a
1/4 mile track. 2) Measure the diameter of the rear tire with the weight of the car on it. 3) Now determine what the trap speed of the car should be on a 1/4 mile track. You can guess
at this looking at similar big block cars (horsepower wise, not necessarily brand name wise)
and see what MPH they are pulling in the traps. 4) OK, MPH x gear ratio x 340 = sum ---- sum / tire diameter = RPM RPM at the given MPH. Now add a bit of RPM (say 600) for converter slippage and you can come up
with a gear ratio of applicable choice for your combination. Jim Subject: Re: [GTO] Compression test? Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 22:32:36 EST From: GoatmanPaulC << The Hastings rings included said .040 over on the box, and when I checked the gaps, they
were considerably larger than the .003"/inch of bore that my book said to gap them at. Most
were .020 to over .025 inches, rather than the .012-.014 I was shooting for. So, I think I
might be leaking compression out of the cylinders, or maybe getting not as much compression as
I should have because of the milled pistons. >> Chris, .003 per inch of bore is a bare minimum. I would never run a Pontiac that tight. 018 is
about as tight as I would go. .020-.025 is about the normal gap I see on them. it will not make
any noticeable difference having .025 compared to .012. When they heat up that gap closes up
significantly. It will be fine, so don't worry about it. The piston is coming up then back down
too fast for the compression to leak out. Hastings rings seem to come with more gap than say
Sealed Power. I personally don't like Hastings. I prefer Sealed Power. Hastings, however, will
tell you they have the best rings! Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Compression test? Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 21:47:53 -0600 From: "Chris Bilich" Why might I be losing so much oil? Do you think this oil loss/combustion gasses getting past
the rings could be contributing to the "sooty black" look of my fresh oil no matter how many
times I change it? Just food for thought. Chris Subject: Re: [GTO] Compression test? Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 01:26:22 -0800 From: J Tatum << Why might I be losing so much oil? Do you think this oil loss/combustion gasses getting past
the rings could be contributing to the "sooty black" look of my fresh oil no matter how many
times I change it? >> Just a thought; Sure you don’t have some rings upside down? This would cause compression to
blow by them and would also increase oil consumption and prematurely "dirty" the oil. Jim Subject: Re: [GTO] Compression test? Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 07:34:44 -0600 From: "Chris Bilich" Jim, Originally, I had some of them upside down. Then I saw the "dots" on the top compression ring
(I believe that was the only one that had dots), and pulled them all to start over. If I check
them and find out that a few are upside down, can they just be flipped over and reinstalled? Chris Subject: Re: [GTO] Compression test? Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:00:06 EST From: GoatmanPaulC << Why might I be losing so much oil? Do you think this oil loss/combustion gasses getting past
the rings could be contributing to the "sooty black" look of my fresh oil no matter how many
times I change it? Just food for thought. Chris >> Chris, are you getting blowby? It kind of sounds like your rings haven't sealed yet. How many
miles on it now? Also, if you are going through oil, I will ask this; Do you have after market
valve covers with a PCV valve in them? If so, they are probably not baffled and the PCV valve
is sucking oil out of the engine. Goatman Subject: Re: [GTO] Compression test? Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 03:53:13 -0600 From: "Chris Bilich" Miles = 1000-1200 or so, the first 300 of which were at 240 degrees (hooked to the dreaded
"melting" TH350.... A problem now corrected). Valve covers are stock: Cap on right, open tube
on left. The open tube, in stock form, went to the air cleaner. Now, it goes nowhere, but it's
long enough to know I'm not losing oil out of it. Valley pan has a stock cover with stock PCV
valve connected to the intake manifold, just in front of the carb. How can I tell explicitly if I'm getting blowby? Chris Subject: Re: [GTO] Compression test? Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:37:44 EST From: GoatmanPaulC << How can I tell explicitly if I'm getting blowby? Chris >> Pull the oil fill cap off the valve cover with it running and see if you can feel pressure
blowing out of the valve cover. Lots of smoke blowing out is a good sign of blowby. :~( There
should be really no noticeable pressure blowing out and no smoke. Goatman Restoration ?’s: Subject: [ChevellePages] Sandblasting Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:33:06 EST From: Phlthy Does anyone remember seeing an article on how to build a sandblasting cabinet from scratch?? I
remember seeing one in one of the car magazines within the past year or two, but can not locate
the issue. My dad is giving me his old air compressor and I figured a sandblaster would be
handy (and a source of extra income for parts.) Eastwood wants quite a bit for them, and they
seem pretty simple in construction. Phil Taravella '69 Chevelle '00 Impala '99 Blazer Visit my website: http://chevellepages.com/philthy">http://chevellepages.com/philthy Subject: Re: [ChevellePages] Sandblasting Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:42:56 -0600 From: Kelly Hanna << Does anyone remember seeing an article on how to build a sandblasting cabinet from scratch??
I remember seeing one in one of the car magazines within the past year or two, but can not
locate the issue. My dad is giving me his old air compressor and I figured a sandblaster would
be handy (and a source of extra income for parts.) Eastwood wants quite a bit for them, and
they seem pretty simple in construction. >> I'm looking for it now...pretty sure i have it...also Harbor freight sells one for $199... Kelly C. Hanna http://www.hannasupersports.com Back to TECH Subjects
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