Rotate? - Rods, Pistons, Crank & Balancer
Rods:
Subject: [gto2] [gto] Re: Hemi rods that fit a Pontiac?????
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:39:49 EDT
From: PONTIAC473
<< Actually Pontiac had a Hemi-type head believe it or not. >>
Well it's not a choice it is FACT. I have the picture right in front of me.
The stats. are:
D.O.H.C.
427 cubes
HEMI head
Aluminum
4.250 bore
3.75 stroke
The motor looks mean as all hell, and the intake ports look just like a Ram Air V.
Joey
Subject: [gto2] Re: [gto] Re: Hemi rods that fit a Pontiac?????
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 01:42:42 EDT
From: Gaotman428
Unfortunately, the engine was designed but never built. All they built was a paper mache [I
know I misspelled it but oh well, I'm not French!] model to demonstrate how it would look. So
Pontiac settled for the 73-74 SD 455 as their performance engine for the smogger years Pontiacs.
What an engine this would have been! They claimed that it would have made 600 H.P.! Wish that
damn gas crunch never happened!
Goatman
Subject: [GTO] Connecting Rod Oiling Holes
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:18:25 -0400
From: Ted D Schultz
I have a question regarding the oiling holes between the connecting rod bearing caps on a
Pontiac 400. These holes are supposed to face the outside of the engine and throw oil into the
cylinder, according to my 1969 service manual. I have a 1973 data coded 400, and only 1 of the
8 connecting rods has this hole? I was concerned, until I opened my box of new connecting rod
bearings and found that none of the new bearings (Fed Mogel 1555CPA) had the holes in them. I
then thought, possibly it was only for older engines, and checked the connecting rod bearing
part # for several Pontiac engines from 67-77 and found it to be the same part #. So, at this
point, I am assuming that for some reason the holes are not necessary, but I wanted to ask to
make sure. I remember that my 69 LeMans 350 had all of the holes, and the Clevite 77 bearings
I put in it all had the holes in them, but this has been a long time ago.
Any info. would be appreciated. Thanks!
Ted Schultz
69 LeMans Convertible
Subject: Re: [GTO] Connecting Rod Oiling Holes
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:13:19 -0700
From: rickgto
Those were originally intended to "shoot" oil under pressure to the cam. The later V-8's ran a
little more rod side clearance and counterweight side taper so the crank "throws" oil on the
cam. The lack of the squirters is only critical on a new cam break in. That’s why it's a must
never to let a rebuilt or cam change engine to fall below 12-15 hundred rpm for the first 20 or
so minutes.
Subject: [GTO] Rod bolts!
Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 21:01:51 -0500
From: "Chris Bilich"
If I succeed in torqueing all 16 connecting rod bolts to 45 lbs., am I going to be OK? They're
stock Pontiac studs, and I won't be pushing over 450 horse (probably about 400 hp, actually,
and only 5500 rpm....street motor).
In a nutshell, I torqued some bolts to about 50-55 lbs, and one snapped off (about 5 threads
down on the bolt). I replaced it with a new stock bolt, and removed and examined all 15
others.... Seemed like they were all OK. I have no more money, and no time to pop all 8 sets
out and have ARPs installed and the rods resized. Can I just pop the ARP's in myself....without
messing w/the rods again?
PLEASE HELP!!!
Frustrated (but still positive...maybe :)
Chris
Subject: Re: [GTO] Rod bolts!
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 06:04:19 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< If I succeed in torqueing all 16 connecting rod bolts to 45 lbs, am I going to be OK?
They're stock Pontiac studs, and I won't be pushing over 450 horse (probably about 400 hp,
actually, and only 5500 rpm....street motor).
In a nutshell, I torqued some bolts to about 50-55 lbs, and one snapped off (about 5 threads
down on the bolt). I replaced it with a new stock bolt, and removed and examined all 15
others.... Seemed like they were all OK. I have no more money, and no time to pop all 8 sets
out and have ARPs installed and the rods resized. Can I just pop the ARP's in myself....without
messing w/the rods again?
PLEASE HELP!!!
Frustrated (but still positive...maybe :) Chris >>
Chris, they should only be torqued to 45 lbs. No you cannot install ARP's without resizing the
rods. If you use stock rod bolts, they should be OK without resizing. Just torque them down to
45 and after all are torqued, go over them again. If none of them turn anymore before the
torque wrench clicks, they will be fine. If they turn some more, they are BAD!
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] Rod bolts!
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 07:47:09 EDT
From: ARayman
I would be extremely suspicious of all those rod bolts. I don't think a good bolt should snap
at 10% over recommended specs. I don't know near as much about engines as I should, but I can
definitely see a disaster waiting to happen if you don't replace all bolts. The cost of the
ARP’s is a fraction of the cost of the damage you will suffer if a bolt lets go.
You can't detect rod bolt stress with the human eye. From what I understand, the stress on
these is a stretching action. The more stretched they get, the easier they are to stretch. More
stretching means less bearing tolerance which means faster bearing failure.
Subject: Re: [GTO] Rod bolts!
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 20:07:53 -0500
From: "Dirk"
<< You can't detect rod bolt stress with the human eye. From what I understand, the stress on
these is a stretching action. The more stretched they get, the easier they are to stretch. More
stretching means less bearing tolerance which means faster bearing failure. >>
This is generally correct, steel resists "stretching" to a very high point then with a little
more force it will let loose and start to stretch, a little more force and it will stretch more.
Most steels will elongate quite a bit before it fails, just as it starts failing it will take
less force to continue to elongate. Hardened steels will stretch and bend before fracture but
not nearly as much as "soft" steels.
Dirk
Subject: Re: [GTO] Rod bolts!
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 10:07:29 EDT
From: Jwroblesk
What's an ARP?
Subject: Re: [GTO] Rod bolts!
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 09:25:48 -0700
From: rickgto
<< What's an ARP? >>
Automotive Racing Products. They make high tensile strength bolts/studs, etc. for just about
any application on any make. Good stuff!
Rick
Subject: [GTO] Re: [poncho] Re: Rod bolts!
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 10:33:22 -0500
From: "Chris Bilich"
Where can I get a set of new stock bolts, like right now?! I'll try AutoZone and such and see
what they have, but let me know if there's a sure-fire place to get them by tomorrow, so I
don't lose all week on this. College starts next Monday!
Thanks,
Chris
Subject: Re: [GTO] Re: [poncho] Re: Rod bolts!
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 14:34:17 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< Where can I get a set of new stock bolts, like right now?! I'll try AutoZone and such and
see what they have, but let me know if there's a sure-fire place to get them by tomorrow, so I
don't lose all week on this. College starts next Monday!
Thanks,
Chris >>
Chris, find someone that deals in Pioneer parts. They should be able to get them. Pioneer makes
a good set of stock bolts that will go right in without distorting the rod.
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] Rod bolts
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:22:24 EDT
From: Fa627
If I could comment on these items: (and please correct me if I'm wrong)
<< You can't detect rod bolt stress with the human eye. From what I understand, the stress on
these is a stretching action. >>
In the engineering vocabulary, the wording "stress" here should be referred to as "strain" in
the elastic (stretchable and returns to it's original shape) region. "Stress" is like pressure.
Force over area.
<< The more stretched they get, the easier they are to stretch. >>
The stress-strain relationship is linear to the point where plastic (actual deformation or
stretching) deformation begins. The curve then drops off and eventually yields (or breaks).
<< More stretching means less bearing tolerance which means faster bearing failure. >>
Should "less tolerance" read as "more clearance"? Resulting in a looser fit?
I also recall, "During tightening, the first thread of the nut tends to take the entire load;
but yielding occurs, with some strengthening due to cold work that takes place, and the load is
eventually divided over about three nut threads. For this reason you should never reuse nuts;
in fact it can be dangerous to do so." (Mechanical Engineering Design, Shigley and Mischke,
pg. 334.) I also believe this contributes to erroneous torque readings.
Subject: [GTO] Broken Rod Question
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 00:10:42 -0400
From: "Bruce Jackson"
Hi List!
I have a 68' Camaro (please don't flame me, I restored it for my son and it has given me the
confidence to buy a 65' GTO Conv. basket case for me!) with a 400 small block. I thought the
rod on #1 cylinder broke. In examining the valve train I noticed that the rocker on the intake
valve had broken. With the car barely running it sounded like someone was banging on the engine
with a hammer (sure sign of broken rod right?), but when I pulled the head and rotated the
engine by hand, the piston went up and down without a problem. The question is, can a rod sound
like it is broken and only have a broken bolt? How can a rod be broken yet still push & pull
the piston?
I need to get this damn C#*% fixed and out of my garage so I can start on the Goat! Any
comments?
Thanks,
Bruce Jackson
Swartz Creek, MI
65' GTO Conv. basketcase (waiting for its' turn!)
Subject: Re: [GTO] Broken Rod Question
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 06:48:48 -0500
From: "Dirk"
Could be a bad bearing, that would keep the piston moving but the extra slop would cause
a knock sound, I heard this once in a '72 GTO that had a bad rod bearing, got rid of the sound
by pouring STP in the engine, tried driving it home only to lubricate approx. 1 mile of roadway
and the bottom of a GTO. Anybody need a vented oil pan?
It's just a Chevy, put a brick on the gas pedal or push it in the nearest ditch! (just
kidding) I would replace the head, replace broken rocker and start it up and see if sound is
gone. If not time for engine R&R.
Dirk
owner of former '65 GTO basket case also!
Subject: Re: [GTO] Broken Rod Question
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 08:24:18 -0500
From: Chris Turner
Had the same thing to happen on a 350 Chevy. Didn’t hurt the bottom end at all... If you
already have the engine out put the oilpan and look at the rod. A broken rocker will make your
engine sound like everything in it is out including the rod. You may have destroyed the cam
though.
Chris
Subject: Re: [GTO] Broken Rod Question
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:28:14 -0400
From: "Bruce Jackson"
Dirk & Chris -
Thanks for the replies! When I rotate the engine by hand I did see the lifter rise in its
bore so I don't think I wiped the cam. Is it possible that a broken intake rocker could make
that kind of sound? I really don't want to pull the engine and tranny, much less rebuild the
engine, but I don't know what could have caused the rocker to break unless the piston hit the
intake valve. When looking at the piston top I didn't see any damage and the intake valve was
closed properly and looked undamaged. Can an un-opening intake valve cause a banging sound and
make the engine undriveable? Or am I just kidding myself and really have a broken rod?
Bruce
Subject: Re: [GTO] Broken Rod Question
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:04:22 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< With the car barely running it sounded like someone was banging on the engine with a hammer
(sure sign of broken rod right?), but when I pulled the head and rotated the engine by hand,
the piston went up and down without a problem. The question is, can a rod sound like it is
broken and only have a broken bolt? How can a rod be broken yet still push & pull the piston? I
need to get this damn C#*% fixed and out of my garage so I can start on the Goat! Any comments?
Thanks,
Bruce Jackson
Swartz Creek, MI
65' GTO Conv. basketcase (waiting for its' turn!) >>
Look at the combustion side of the head. If the rod bearing has spun, you will be able to see
where the piston was hitting the head. Also, the piston will be shiny where it was hitting. It
may be on the other side. If the ex. valve rocker were broke, then I might say the knock you
here may be the backfire of the combustion coming back up the carb. But it sounds like a rod
knock to me.
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] Broken Rod Question
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:14:38 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< Thanks for the replies! When I rotate the engine by hand I did see the lifter rise in its
bore, so I don't think I wiped the cam. Is it possible that a broken intake rocker could make
that kind of sound? I really don't want to pull the engine and tranny, much less rebuild the
engine, but I don't know what could have caused the rocker to break unless the piston hit the
intake valve. When looking at the piston top I didn't see any damage and the intake valve was
closed properly and looked undamaged. Can an un-opening intake valve cause a banging sound and
make the engine undriveable? Or am I just kidding myself and really have a broken rod?
Bruce >>
Bruce, a broken intake rocker will just cause a dead cylinder. A broken exhaust rocker however,
will cause all the combustion to come back out the carb since the intake is still opening and
letting fuel into that cylinder, but the exhaust won't let it out. The result is a constant
popping up the carb. If the air cleaner was on it may sound like a rod knock. Double check
that it was an intake rocker that broke and not an exhaust. Also, you may have a bad exhaust
lobe on that cylinder and all the extra pressure on the intake valve broke the rocker.
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] Broken Rod Question
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 23:21:39 -0600
From: "T. H."
<< When looking at the piston top I didn't see any damage and the intake valve was closed
properly and looked undamaged. Can an un-opening intake valve cause a banging sound and make
the engine undriveable? Or am I just kidding myself and really have a broken rod? >>
What if you got valve spring coil bind from a big cam and that snapped the rocker? Is it the
rocker that broke or the stud? If it's the stud, did you see if the rocker had cocked sideways
and cut into the stud and caused it to break?
Tom
Subject: Re: [GTO] Broken Rod Question
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 00:57:02 EDT
From: DATHOE
There are allot of things happening when a rocker arm breaks, I would fix the valve train and
run it, chances are there is no rod knock. When the engine is running and the piston is on the
intake stroke, and the valve isn’t opening, there is a huge vacuum being created in the
cylinder. This may create a noise. There is also a pushrod and lifter hovering somewhere in the
engine, who knows which of these things are making funny noises.
Give that Chevy to a relative and on to the 65.
Dave
Dave's 455 Rebuild
Subject: Re: [GTO] Broken Rod Question
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:20:40 -0500
From: Chris Turner
If the valve is closed, and you was running it... I'd definitely look at the rod bearings. You
put a lot of pressure on the rod bearings. I would still take the time to pull the cam and look
at lobe. Nothing would be more disheartening than to put the engine back together and have the
knock still there or if not there this moment have it come apart on you a few miles down the
road.
If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.
Subject: Re: [GTO] Broken Rod Question
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:33:00 -0400
From: "Bruce Jackson"
Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions. I'm afraid I'll have to pull the engine and
check further to find my problem. Damn, I had hoped to get the 65' ragtop into the garage
sooner! It's driving me crazy having the Camaro in the garage and the GTO out behind the shed
with a tarp over her!
Unfortunately, I have to get the Camaro running so I can sell it in the Spring to finance the
goat!
Bruce Jackson
65' GTO Conv. basketcase (the cute one with the blue tarp over it!)
Pistons and Rings:
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:02:13 EST
From: Corpkilr1
Subject: Re: [GTO] Piston #'s & Dist.
<< 9787610 for maybe a '69 - 70 piston??? Also, where would I find the #'s on the '69-70
Distributor >>
'69' engines as follows:
400ci 265hp dist.#1111940
400ci 350/366hp man. shift dist# 1111952
400ci 350/366hp auto dist# 1111946
400ci 370hp dist# 1111941
'70' engines as follows:
400ci 350hp man.shift dist# 1111176
400ci 350hp auto dist# 1111148
400ci 366hp man.shift dist# 1112010
400ci 366hp auto dist# 1112009
400ci 370hp dist# 1112011
455ci 360hp man.shift dist# 1112012
455ci 360hp auto dist# 1111105
hope this helps ya. -corpkilr-
<<< Brad, I found it right after I sent the message. A wire brush did the trick.
Thanks, Anybody need a '67 orig. Distributor #1111250
Scott >>>
<< Scott, ya sure that says 1111250 ? the listings I have state a 1111251 for '67' with
electronic Ign.., but I can't find a 1111250 for any GTO motor.
-corpkilr- >>
Subject: [GTO] Moly Rings?
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:18:38 -0400
From: Ted D Schultz
I am putting together a 1973 400 for my 69 LeMans, and had a question on what rings to
use. The engine is std. bore w/stock pistons.
What is the main difference between standard and moly rings? I have heard people say that
the moly rings are softer, and will cause less wear on the cylinder walls, but does this mean
that the rings will wear quicker? What needs to be done differently to prep. cylinders for moly
rings vs standard rings? I have heard that for moly rings the cylinders must be honed using
finer grit stones and they should be smoother for moly rings.
Car is street driven w/3.55 gears and turns ~2800 going 60 mph.
Thanks!
Ted Schultz
69 LeMans Convertible
Subject: Re: [GTO] Moly Rings?
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:32:44 -0700
From: rickgto
<< I am putting together a 1973 400 for my 69 LeMans, and had a question on what rings to
use. The engine is std bore w/stock pistons.
What is the main difference between standard and moly rings?
I have heard people say that the moly rings are softer, and will cause less wear on the
cylinder walls, but does this mean that the rings will wear quicker? What needs to be done
differently to prep. cylinders for moly rings vs standard rings? I have heard that for moly
rings the cylinders must be honed using finer grit stones and they should be smoother for moly
rings.
Car is street driven w/3.55 gears and turns ~2800 going 60 mph.
Thanks!
Ted Schultz
69 LeMans Convertible >>
You were either told or heard backwards. Moly rings are much harder than iron. For a street use
car where longevity is more important than 1-1/2 horsepower, I’d stay with cast rings. They’re
much easier on the cylinder walls for long term application, seat quicker and do their job just
fine. Moly also puts quite a bit higher ring tension on the cyl. walls causing faster than
normal wear. Moly rings certainly have their place but a street driven Poncho expected to
exceed 100k miles isn’t it. And yes, the bore/hone/grit/crosshatch is a different method for
cast vs. moly.
Rick
Subject: [GTO] Re: RPM was Moly rings
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 17:44:05 -0700
From: rickgto
<< WOW, your going 2800 rpm's @ 60 MPH? What size tires are you running??
Mike 65 HT >>
<<< Car is street driven w/3.55 gears and turns ~2800 going 60 mph. >>>
That's exactly where it should be with stock G70-14's (or P225/70R-14's in today’s world). I
know, geezer flashback, but imagine spinnin' a 3.90 geared RA IU down RT 66 (now RT 55) at 70+
mph for a hundred or so miles. Used to do it all the time in my 69 Judge. Also, in a 69 440 6
pack 4.10 auto Roadrunner. It only made the trip twice and puked it's innards all over Dixie
truck stop. 13k on the car, 2nd rebuild. But, was it fun!!
Rick
Subject: Re: [GTO] Moly Rings?
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 01:19:10 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< What is the main difference between standard and moly rings? I have heard people say that
the moly rings are softer, and will cause less wear on the cylinder walls, but does this mean
that the rings will wear quicker? What needs to be done differently to prep cylinders for moly
rings vs standard rings? I have heard that for moly rings the cylinders must be honed using
finer grit stones and they should be smoother for moly rings.
Car is street driven w/ 3.55 gears and turns ~2800 going 60 mph.
Thanks!
Ted Schultz
69 LeMans Convertible >>
DEFINITELY use moly rings. They wear the cylinders way less than cast [standard] rings and last
longer and have less drag. Pontiac used moly rings in many of their engines starting way back
in the 60's. I had an original 66 389 with double moly rings. The cylinders need to be honed
finer for moly’s. Sunnen stone # JHU 820. Moly is all I will use. With cast rings and 100,000
miles you will usually find about .010-.012 taper in the cylinders but with moly's it is
usually around .003-.005. Contrary to popular belief, moly rings seat pretty much right away as
do cast rings. Moly's are usually only about $10-$15 more than cast. Stay away from chrome
rings, they are hard to seat and require a rougher hone. Some people call moly rings "chrome
-moly", but this means they have a Chrome top ring and a moly second ring, but you would be
hard pressed to find these for a Pontiac. A set of moly rings has a moly top ring and a cast
second ring. Sealed Power part # for a 400 and 428 is E299K.
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] Moly Rings?
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 14:02:02 EDT
From: PONTIAC475
<< Rick, I have NEVER found this to be true. EVERY engine I have ever tore down with moly rings
has WAY less wear than cast rings. >>
So sayith the GOATMAN, so let it be written. :-)
Actually I agree w/this statement, I just wanted to have someone say it first, before the racer
vs. street car clan crucify me...LOL ;-)
Joey
Subject: Re: [GTO] Moly Rings?
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:42:44 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< I'd be willing to bet if you asked for a set of Moly rings at most auto parts stores, you
will get the hard chrome. Ask for cast, you'll get the moly faced top. I guess it's all in the
interpretation. >>
Hey Rick, here, if you ask for cast rings you will get cast top and second rings. If you ask
for Moly you will get Moly top and cast second. I have yet to see a chrome ring for Pontiac. I
agree with you on the fact that chrome rings are hard to seat. For that reason I will not use
them. Seen too many import engines rebuilt with chrome rings [some imports chrome is all you
can get] that never seated. Some people mistakenly call Moly rings, chrome moly. I for one also
used to call them this till I realized the difference. Like you say, it's all a matter of
terminology.
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] Moly Rings?
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:06:18 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< Rick, I have NEVER found this to be true. EVERY engine I have ever tore down with moly rings
has WAY less wear than cast rings.
So sayith the GOATMAN, so let it be written. :-)
Actually I agree w/this statement, I just wanted to have someone say it first, before the racer
vs. street car clan crucify me...LOL ;-)
Joey >>
Thanks Joey, I knew I could count on you to back me up!
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] Moly Rings?
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:39:41 -0700
From: rickgto
<<< Actually I agree w/this statement, I just wanted to have someone say it first, before the
racer vs. street car clan crucify me...LOL ;-)
Joey >>>
<< Thanks Joey, I knew I could count on you to back me up!
Goatman >>
Joey. You have to be bolder. Speak your mind. That's what the list is for, education. Don't
wait for an opinion to agree with, just blurt it out. I don't know if anyone on this list even
knows the guy that builds your engines or cars so who could argue with the advice he gives you?
BTW Paul, Total Seal, Speed Pro, Hastings, to name a few, still offer hard chrome faced rings.
I find it amusing they still call them "chrome moly", From John Deere's to Harleys. Just
thought you might be interested.
Rick (still don't like chrome)
Subject: Re: [GTO] Moly Rings? Joey
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:03:09 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< Joey. You have to be bolder. Speak your mind. That’s what the list is for, education. Don't
wait for an opinion to agree with, just blurt it out. I don't know if anyone on this list even
knows the guy that builds your engines or cars so who could argue with the advice he gives you?
BTW Paul, Total Seal, Speed Pro, Hastings, to name a few, still offer hard chrome faced rings.
I find it amusing they still call them "chrome moly", From John Deere's to Harleys. Just
thought you might be interested.
Rick (still don't like chrome) >>
Thanks Rick, I guess since I don't like chrome rings either, I haven't looked too hard. I
mainly use Sealed Power rings and don't remember seeing Chrome offered by them. Also I agree,
Joey, speak your mind! I know I always enjoy reading your posts even if I may not agree. We all
have different experiences and all can learn from each other. I know, I learn something new
pretty much every time I read this list. We can NEVER stop learning. No matter how much we know,
there is always more to learn. I've actually had people call me a walking Pontiac encyclopedia,
[Corpkilr said he wanted to clone me and throw my clone in the trunk for trips] but there is
more I don't know than what I do. So, don't hesitate to speak your mind. I know sometimes you
get your butt reamed on here for things you say, but that doesn't mean your wrong. I've felt
you have gotten a bad wrap when you were, in my opinion, right. Someone is always going to
disagree with someone else, but that doesn't mean either one is wrong or right, just that they
disagree!
Goatman [listens to everyone, and speaks my mind when I disagree] Carter
Subject: Re: [GTO] Moly Rings?
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 10:49:15 EDT
From: LP10978
Call Warrior Racing and ask for moly rings and they WILL tell you "no not chrome-moly, plasma
-moly is what we have" already did it myself to make sure I wasn’t getting chrome. Plasma moly
rings are far superior to cast due to their strength at higher rpms. Where cast rings will
begin to flex at higher rpms causing blowby and the crop duster affect. I hear chrome rings are
good only in dusty, desert type areas for what reason I don’t know.
Subject: [GTO] piston rings
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:29:08 EDT
From: Vanmor
What kind of piston rings should I run in a mild street 400? Chrome moly or the old plain type.
What brand is a good brand?
Vance
68 HT
Subject: Re: [GTO] piston rings
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:20:41 EDT
From: RAMAIR406
Don’t run chrome moly. Take forever to seat. Never ran them tho. So, cant speak on experience.
I was just told to stay away unless you live out in the desert like Nevada or Arizona. Cast
rings seat almost immediately and are great for everyday low rpm driving, but start to flex
at higher rpms, causing blowby (crop dusting effect). Now plasma moly (only kind I’d run) take
a little cruise to seat (maybe 15 minutes on the highway), but won’t flex at higher R’s.
Subject: Re: [GTO] piston rings
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:11:08 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< What kind of piston rings should I run in a mild street 400? Chrome moly or the old plain
type. What brand is a good brand?
Vance
68 HT >>
Vance, run Sealed-Power # E299K. These are Moly rings. Moly top ring and cast second. No
CHROME ring. Moly rings are just a few bucks more but wear the cylinders way less than the
plain old cast rings. For more info on rings,
Click Here and scroll down to Piston rings. I
won't use anything else. There are other brands that make Moly rings and they work just fine
also, I just like Sealed-Power the best, myself.
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] piston rings
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:20:49 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< Don’t run chrome moly. Take forever to seat. Never ran them tho. So, can’t speak on
experience. I as just told to stay away unless you live out in the desert like Nevada or
Arizona. >>
To be more accurate, "CHROME" rings are hard to seat. Most people refer to "Moly" rings as
"Chrome Moly". This is not true. "Chrome Moly" rings consist of a Chrome top ring with a Moly
second ring. Moly rings are a moly top and a cast second ring. Moly rings seat right away and
last a long time and wear the cylinders about half as much as cast rings.
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] piston rings
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 11:02:49 EDT
From: PONTIAC475
<< Don’t run chrome moly. Take forever to seat. Never ran them tho. So, cant speak on
experience. I was just told to stay away unless you live out in the desert like Nevada or
Arizona. >>
This is an "old Wives Tale". I never had a problem.
Joey
Subject: [GTO] 455HO Compression
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 23:18:57 EDT
From: A6464NUT
Is there any way to raise the compression on a '71-'72 455HO to around 9.5-1?
Are there pistons available?
Thanks,
Harry
Subject: Re: [GTO] 455HO Compression
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 21:54:26 -0500
From: "Dirk"
Yes, I had similar problem with my heads needed to raise comp. w/111 cc chambers. I had all the
following done, .015 overbore on a 455, offset ground crank .040, .020 off heads, .14 dome on
piston. Raised my comp. to 9.3 to 1, so yes pistons are available, look into offsetting pin
location and long rod if you are doing a complete rebuild. Cost will be slightly more, but if
you are getting special pistons go the long rods also.
Dirk
Crank:
Subject: [GTO] crank journal sizes needed
Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 12:32:01 EDT
From: LP10978
My 400 crank is std. size. I wanna mic the rods and mains to see if I can get away with a
polishing. All is smooth, but some very very very minor surface rust needs to be removed. And,
also, what should be my limit to whether or not I need a 10 cut?
Subject: Re: [GTO] crank journal sizes needed
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 02:27:34 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
The specs are as follows: Rods, 2.2488-2.2498 and mains, 2.9990-3.000.
I personally prefer the journals to be closer to the high limit. If they are on the low limit
you will have .0025-.003 clearance which is too much for a street engine. Most factory ground
Pontiac cranks I've seen are on the high side and polish just fine. Also, Mike the journals in
a few places to check for out of roundness [is that a word?].
Goatman
Subject: [GTO] 428 Crank
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 09:09:43 -0400
From: Wiley SSGt Philip L
Well I don't know how to send a message without replying to a message. Here it goes though: I
need to know how to get a hold of a new 428 crank. I want to put a 428 in my 70 LeMans Sports.
Can anyone help please send me some info on Pontiac catalogs to order hard to find parts?
Subject: Re: [GTO] 428 Crank
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 02:23:08 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
Why does it have to be new? About all your going to find new is an aftermarket steel crank for
probably around $1500-$2000. A good used one that would grind to .010 or .020 or even .030
would be just fine. 65 and up 421's and 428's have the crank your looking for. You might check
with Jim Butler Performance to see if they can get you what you want. Anyone know their #?
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] 428 Crank
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 05:47:47 EDT
From: Corpkilr1
# for Butler is 931-762-4596...........
-corpkilr-
Subject: [GTO] 428 crank
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 17:07:58 -0400
From: Wiley SSGt Philip L
Can anyone tell me how to find a 428 crank?
Subject: Re: [GTO] 428 crank
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 01:24:04 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
I heard that Lunati is starting to make Pontiac cranks. You might check out their website at
http://www.lunaticams.com and e-mail them for a price. You might try Jim Butler performance at
the # corpkilr posted earlier.
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] 428 crank
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 01:25:44 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
Will a used one be OK? Or are you the guy that wanted a new one?
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] Lunati crank
Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 01:32:37 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< I've heard that the Lunati crank has been delayed until next year because of the buy out buy
Holley and other issues.
=====
Brad '68 Ram Air GTO >>
THAT'S JUST GREAT!!!!!!
Goatman
Harmonic Balancers:
Subject: [poncho] Re: 62 SD Balancer
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 10:22:25 -0800
From: Ken Reimer
Hi Dave,
Try Bill Bisschop at PMD Specialties 604 888 - 4100, he has a 62 421 SD clone in his
garage and a bunch of other 421 parts.
Regards,
Ken
<< To: All Pontiac Nuts- Last weekend I had a rare look at a garage full of all old Pontiacs.
Most rare was a former race car - a 62 Catalina hardtop, fully PHS documented. This car is
rough but fairly complete - minus the 421 SD motor. The owner asked if I would put a request to
the list for a harmonic balancer for this engine.
He had some old photos of the motor - It is a strange looking balancer with bolts all
around the perimeter.
He said that this balancer is desperately needed for the restoration. He has a replacement 421
motor, but has not been able to locate a balancer for it. Anyone have any leads or have one to
sell??? >>
Subject: [GTO] Harmonic balancer run-out
Date: Sat, 13 May 2000 23:02:35 -0400
From: "J. Edmonds"
I removed my balancer with the correct puller, re-installed, torqued, and now I'm able to see
some nominal runout. I can't understand how the balancer could be crooked on the tapered
crankshaft @ 150# torque! What should I do the second time around to straighten it up?
Thanks Jim E.
Subject: Re: [GTO] Harmonic balancer run-out
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 02:17:07 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< I removed my balancer with the correct puller, re-installed, torqued, and now I'm able to
see some nominal runout. I can't understand how the balancer could be crooked on the tapered
crankshaft @ 150# torque! What should I do the second time around to straighten it up?
Thanks Jim E. >>
Jim, did you notice if it wobbled before? Has the engine been rebuilt? If so, then the wobble
could be from the crankshaft being bent [say from a previous spun rod bearing]. If the crank
grinder didn't straighten the crank before they ground it, then the nose will wobble and the
only thing you can do about it is pull the engine apart and have the crank straightened and
reground. The only other thing I can suggest is to pull the balancer back off and look at the
key slot, on the gear side of the balancer, to see if it is cracked. This is a common place for
these balancers to crack which might give it enough play to make it wobble.
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] Harmonic balancer run-out
Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 08:27:28 -0400
From: "J. Edmonds"
Goatman,
The cracked key makes allot of sense. It didn't wobble before, it's a VIN matching 68 block,
certainly been apart before. NOW, if it's broke and I pull the balancer, good chance it's going
down into the pan, right? So, where should the timing mark be to position the keyway straight
up?
Thanks!
Subject: Re: [GTO] Harmonic balancer run-out
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 01:51:32 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< The cracked key makes allot of sense. It didn't wobble before, it's a VIN matching 68 block,
certainly been apart before. NOW, if it's broke and I pull the balancer, good chance it's going
down into the pan, right? >>
No, not necessarily. I have seen many that were just cracked and still in 1 piece. Usually when
the balancer breaks, the piece fly's up into the timing
chain and breaks things.
<< So, where should the timing mark be to position the keyway straight up? >>
If I remember right, the timing mark is just to the left of the key. The key is in the crank
tight, so you shouldn’t have to worry about the key falling out. Any corrections out there?
Goatman
Subject: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 23:10:46 EDT
From: Vanmor
Uh, Oh. While tearing down my engine (400), I noticed I hadn't removed my harmonic balancer.
How do you get this thing off without an air or electric impact. I have already removed the
heads.
By the way, this balancer or damper has 4 holes instead of three. Why is this?
Thanks
Vance
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:01:27 EDT
From: RAMAIR406
Harmonic balancer has one large bolt in the center holding it on (forget size) and usually need
a gear puller of some sort to pull it off. Don’t use a hammer or punch or you will separate the
rubber seal and its junk.
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:30:04 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< Uh, Oh. While tearing down my engine (400), I noticed I hadn't removed my harmonic balancer.
How do you get this thing off without an air or electric impact. I have already removed the
heads.
By the way, this balancer or damper has 4 holes instead of three. Why is this?
Thanks
Vance >>
Vance, just wedge a prybar between one of the crank counter weights and the oilpan rail and use
a breaker bar.
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 00:33:00 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< harmonic balancer has one large bolt in the center holding it on (forget size) and usually
need a gear puller of some sort to pull it off. Don’t use a hammer or punch or you will
separate the rubber seal and its junk. >>
It's 15/16ths and Pontiac balancers are a slip fit so it shouldn't take much more than a slight
pry from behind with a couple of screw drivers or prybars. Make sure bolt gets retorqued back
to 160 lbs ft. NO LESS!
Goatman
Subject: RE: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 07:07:02 CST
From: "The Harper Valley P.T.A."
<< By the way, this balancer or damper has 4 holes instead of three. Why is this? >>
That's how Pontiac chose to do it. All the engines I've ever torn down have had the 4-hole
damper...
Brad
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy(pry bar?)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 02:53:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Eric Bushley
Someone once said that the only thing that separates humans and monkeys is that we have the
tools to do a job right. Vance go buy or rent the right puller to take the balancer off. My
local auto parts store (Orileys) 'rents' these for free. Even if you have to buy one it is a
lot cheaper than a new crank or a trip to the hospital when the pry bar slips and pokes an eye,
cuts your arm, etc., etc........ Can't believe anyone would suggest this!!!
ERIC
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy(pry bar?)
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2000 06:55:59 CST
From: "The Harper Valley P.T.A."
<< job right. Vance go buy or rent the right puller to take the balancer off. My local auto
parts store (Orileys) 'rents' these for free. Even if you have to buy one it is a lot cheaper
than a new crank or a trip to the hospital when the pry bar slips and pokes an eye, cuts your
arm, etc., etc........ Can't believe anyone would suggest this!!!
ERIC >>
As Paul said, the damper is a slip fit and no puller or installer is needed for removal or
replacement. What he's suggesting is that the prybar be used to lock the crank in place so that
the 15/16" crank bolt can be loosened; it's tightened to 160 ft-lbs. at the factory. I would,
also, suggest wrapping the bar in rags or towels to minimize the risk of scratching anything,
and have a cheater extension handy to increase the torque when removing the bolt.
Brad
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy(pry bar?)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:59:14 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< Someone once said that the only thing that separates humans and monkeys is that we have the
tools to do a job right. Vance go buy or rent the right puller to take the balancer off. My
local auto parts store (Orileys) 'rents' these for free. Even if you have to buy one it is a
lot cheaper than a new crank or a trip to the hospital when the pry bar slips and pokes an eye,
cuts your arm, etc., etc........ Can't believe anyone would suggest this!!!
ERIC >>
Eric,
IF you read my post you would have seen that I said the balancer was a SLIP FIT! I have never
needed a puller on a Pontiac balancer [have removed more than the average bear] to remove them.
Most of the time they pull right off with your hands! Once in a while you need to give a very
slight pry from behind. If it was pressed on like a Chevy, I never would have mentioned this
because prying would be a waste of time and probably wind you up in the hospital like you say.
This is what’s great about Pontiacs, you don't need special tools because things are made to
come apart easy. I'm not an IDIOT, and have worked on way more of these engines than most! If I
say it is a slip fit, I mean it's a slip fit! So next time, READ the post better before you
call me a Monkey. I TAKE THAT PERSONALLY! Nothing worse than someone who doesn't know what
their doing coming along and bashing people when they themselves don't read carefully enough!
Goatman [I AM NOT AN ANIMAL!] Carter
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy(pry bar?)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:01:45 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< As Paul said, the damper is a slip fit and no puller or installer is needed for removal or
replacement. What he's suggesting is that the prybar be used to lock the crank in place so that
the 15/16" crank bolt can be loosened; it's tightened to 160 ft-lbs. at the factory. I would
also suggest wrapping the bar in rags or towels to minimize the risk of scratching anything,
and have a cheater extension handy to increase the torque when removing the bolt.
Brad >>
At least someone reads my post correctly. Thanks Brad.
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy(pry bar?)
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 02:12:13 EDT
From: Corpkilr1
<< Someone once said that the only thing that separates humans and monkeys is that we have the
tools to do a job right. Vance go buy or rent the right puller to take the balancer off. My
local auto parts store (Orileys) 'rents' these for free. Even if you have to buy one it is a
lot cheaper than a new crank or a trip to the hospital when the pry bar slips and pokes an eye,
cuts your arm, etc., etc........ Can't believe anyone would suggest this!!!
ERIC >>
Eric,........I was gonna get into you a little for this post, but after reading the rest
of the replies, I see the rest of the list has already set you straight. PLEASE, remember we
are talking PONTIAC here, NOT CH**Y
Thank You........-corpkilr-
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 07:38:21 EDT
From: ARayman
In my past experiences with harmonic balancers on the Pontiac engine, I have never had to do
much more than pull them off by hand. (after the big center bolt has been removed). They are
not like Chevys. I leave all the pulleys attached, and just grab the pulley and slide off.
Also, if your balancer is that poor that the rubber is going to come apart if a little force is
applied to it, then it is ready for the junk pile.
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:00:24 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< In my past experiences with harmonic balancers on the Pontiac engine, I have never had to do
much more than pull them off by hand. (after the big center bolt has been removed). They are
not like Chevys. I leave all the pulleys attached, and just grab the pulley and slide off.
Also, if your balancer is that poor that the rubber is going to come apart if a little force is
applied to it, then it is ready for the junk pile. >>
My sentiments exactly! Thank you for backing this MONKEY UP!
Goatman
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy(Goatman)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 20:47:25 EDT
From: Vanmor
Paul,
I thought of that. I thought I might hurt my crank, but I will give it a try. Is that bolt
threaded the same direction. I hear some crank bolts are threaded in the reverse direction.
Vance
Subject: Re: [GTO] harmonic balancer thingy(Goatman)
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2000 21:49:24 EDT
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< Paul,
I thought of that. I thought I might hurt my crank, but I will give it a try. Is that bolt
threaded the same direction. I hear some crank bolts are threaded in the reverse direction.
Vance >>
The bolt is regular threads. As long as, you just let the prybar lock up the counter weight,
you won't hurt anything.
Goatman
Subject: [GTO] balancer
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 11:04:08 -0800
From: Donald Mckay
OK Guys this time I need you. Will a harmonic balancer from a 74 350 be the same as one from a
75 400 engine? I ran a message last month about the car just quitting while performing.
Everything was fine until Wednesday when it miss fired and quit. I thought timing chain so
after being towed home I ordered the parts and on tear down discovered a crack running the
length of the slot and then a quarter inch to one side. I have one from one of my 350's but not
sure if it is right for a 400, I tried it and it will fit but is there a weight balance or
something different?
Subject: RE: [GTO] balancer
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:30:19 CST
From: Eugene Camembert
<< OK Guys this time I need you. Will a harmonic balancer from a 74 350 be the same as one from
a 75 400 engine? I ran a message last month about >>
According to H-O Racing, all '68-76 dampers will interchange with each other.
Brad
Subject: Re: [GTO] balancer
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:17:13 -0800
From: Donald Mckay
That’s what I wanted to here. THANK YOU Very Much. I wasn’t sure where I was going to find one
quickly. Christmas Toy Run this weekend.
Subject: Re: [GTO] balancer
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 06:50:14 GMT
From: "Pete Judge"
Don, they are one and the same and if you need a balancer, let me know and I will bring one
down to Vancouver next time or just send it to you, actually Kim will have one get it from him
and I will replace it.
The 350 crank and the 400 crank are the same also, same throw etc.
Pete
70 Judge
Subject: Re: [GTO] balancer
Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 23:12:31 -0800
From: Donald Mckay
Thanks for the info. You are the third person to confirm this for me and so I will be using the
other one I have from the 350. I have a 69 350 and two extra 74 350 so I have it covered, but
thanks for the offer and getting back to me.
Subject: Re: [GTO] balancer[Torque]
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:57:46 EST
From: GoatmanPaulC
<< Thanks for the info. You are the third person to confirm this for me and so I will be using
the other one I have from the 350. I have a 69 350 and two extra 74 350 so I have it covered,
but thanks for the offer and getting back to me. >>
Also, make sure you torque the balancer bolt to 160 lbs. ft. failure to do this is the primary
reason the balancer cracks and breaks! All the Pontiac
balancers are 0 balanced and will
interchange fine from 68-76 like everyone else has said.
Goatman
Subject: RE: [GTO] balancer[Torque]
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 15:41:16 -0500
From: CharlesB
Hmmm. Don't I remember hearing that there were 3 types of balancer/timing cover designs - 1 is
pre-'69, 1 is '69 - 70 something (73), & 1 post that?
Maybe it's just the timing cover that differs but the balancers are OK across all years? I
could swear I saw some balancers on later models that were smaller than the one on my '69.
CB
Subject: RE: [GTO] balancer[Torque]
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 14:44:35 CST
From: Eugene Camembert
<< Maybe it's just the timing cover that differs but the balancers are OK across all years? I
could swear I saw some balancers on later models that were smaller than the one on my '69. >>
Not all years, but '68-76. I didn't pay attention to earlier years. I believe it might've been
1977 when Pontiac switched to a smaller damper and 1978 when the earlier style reappeared. A
one year wonder. ;^)
Brad
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