Rinoa is Ultimecia.
"Some GF's can be extracted from rings. You extract Doomtrain from the Solomon ring, right? So, now that we know this fact, I'll tell you how Ultimecia gets Griever. It's quite simple really. Remember how Squall gave his ring with a lion on it to Rinoa, and then you had to name it? And you wondered: "What the heck? Why am I naming a little ring? This is pointless!" Well, my friend, it had a point. Whatever you name the ring is the name of the boss you fight after defeating Ultimecia's human form.
That's how Ultimecia got Griever - Squall gave it to Rinoa, who grew up to become the new sorceress - Ultimecia who then extracted the "most powerful GF."
Too weak a theory you say? Well then listen to this:
Squall tells Rinoa to wait at that one field for him. After hearing this the opening finally makes sense to you. (I'll be here...waiting for you...etc. etc.)
Here's the sad part - in another timeline, Squall never came for her (perhaps he found a new love, or perhaps he died without her knowing). She as a sorceress becomes overcome with grief, and she builds her fortress on that field. She, as an evil sorceress, waits for her long lost love in her castle for generations. After a while she become hateful and vengeful and conjures up the plan for time compression. I still haven't figured out exactly why she fights Squall at the end. Perhaps because she doesn't recognise him. Or maybe because she hates him for making her wait for such a long time.
There is an FMV shot of Ultimecia in the ending too. It lasts about a tenth of a second (it's during the part where Rinoa walks towards you a bunch of times, as if she were trapped in a time loop). Now, the people at Square are not stupid. They wouldn't waste time on making a good FMV shot of Ultimecia's face for no good reason."
~Crusader
"If u speak to Rinoa in the Ragnarok before going to the Lunatic Pandora, she says even if they defeat Ultimecia in the future, she'll just be born again.....
so obviously, Rinoa meant that if they defeated Ulty in the future, Rinoa would eventually become her."
"At the end Ultimecia is taken to the past where she gives her powers to Edea, so she dies in the past and cannot be reborn...so Rinoa wont become her!!" (for or against the theory?)
~Alenita
Rinoa is Not Ultimecia
"There is one instance, and one instance only of a GF being extracted from a ring, and that is only because of the lore behind that ring.
Simple fact of the matter is that there is no, and I mean no information about Griever and that ring. We don't even know how Squall got that ring. For all we know, Squall could have walked into a little shop somewhere, saw the ring, read what Griever meant, and decided it sounded cool and bought it.
If that sounds slim, let's not forget the fact that Ultimecia exists generations in the future. In that time, it's quite possible that the ring ended up in a museum somewhere along the lines, and that's how Ultimecia knew about it.
And if that doesn't float your boat, another possibility is that Ultimecia scanned Squall's mind. When you scan Griever, the game tells you that it is the strongest GF in Squall's mind. That suggests that Griever was brought forth to screw with Squall's mind.
And even if that doesn't agree with you...here's yet another possibility. When Ultimecia is possessing Rinoa, all she has to do is look down to see the bloody ring. If Griever is folklore at all, it's possible that Ultimecia knows about that lore. Considering that there are many things some people like, that other people have no clue that exists, it suggests that it is entirely possible for Griever to fall under that category. Just some countering for that Griever theory.
Well...considering that technically, the fortress isn't next to the flower field. To access the castle, you have to go through the beach. The flower field is on the *other* side of Edea's orphanage.
Beyond that...let's not go into multiple timeline type deals here. There is only one timeline here...and for all intents and purposes, it's stuck in a timeloop. But forgetting that, consider that there are two other possibilities as to the whole fortress thing.
Number one, Ultimecia hates SeeD right? Hell...she says that herself. Considering that she hates SeeD so much, it would be quite an instance of histrocial irony that Ultimecia would bulid her fortress off of where SeeD was originally born. Basically she would have done out of spite.
Or, Ultimecia's castle could in fact not even be along the cost. That was a huge as chain you had to walk along to get to her castle. That suggests that her castle is actually over a body of water. And that, in turn, suggests that she would need more than one chain which suggest she would be at a point roughly in between two masses of land for the chains to connect to. And if you look at it from purely a military point of view, she had to perfect spot consider that the only way in was on the ground. And when you know where your enemy is coming from, they are as good as dead.
They did use the same basic female character models for their females. That's why Quistis and Selphie also look somewhat similar, as do Squall, Zell, and Laguna. But beyond that, from the shots you posted, their hair definitely is not parted the same way, the eyes between the two do not look alike, Ultimecia's lips are fuller than Rinoa's and Rinoa's nose is more rounded than Ultimecia's.
And as far as the FMV shot goes...since they use the same character models, it wouldn't be hard at all to change a few features and come out with another character. Coming up with the original character model is the hardest part, and since they are using a preexisting model, all they have to change are the aesthetics."
"The way that time theoretically works makes it that even if you (assuming you have travelled to the past) die in the past, you will still be born. Reason being is that you haven't done anything to prevent your birth from occuring. The only way for you not to be born is if someone travels to the past and either kills your mother or your father before you are born. Thus, you are effectively eliminated from history.
In FF8's case of time travel, Ultimecia is actually the instigator of everything. She is defeated in the future. Her future self travels to the past, and gives her powers to Edea to die in peace. Edea is then given the idea of SeeD and Garden by Squall. But everything we play through the course of FF8 is repeated because eventually Ultimecia will still be born. Eventually, Ultimecia will attempt Time Compression. And eventually, a group of angsty teenagers from the past will travel to the future and defeat her. When they do, Ulti travels to the past and gives her powers to Edea so that she may die in peace. Thus, FF8 is stuck in a time loop."
~American Badass
"So you say Rinoa is Ultimecia, but it's said nowhere in the game and there is not any solid proof. In fact, all what you think are facts and when you add them all together, you get the fact that Rinoa is Ultimecia. But it's not like this. All these facts are based on something which you can't prove too well either.
Here's what you think your case is:
Proof + More Proof = Sure thing that Rinoa is Ultimecia
Well, that would work but it doesn't. Because your case is more like:
Personal Views + Opinions = Rinoa is Ultimecia and that is true!
And sorry but that calculation is wrong. Personal Views + Opinions is really equal to "I think Rinoa is Ultimecia but I can't prove it."
~Sephiroth1999AD
What Square Says...
"This Back to Square One is about a recent topic on the forums. Doc brought up a website that discussed a theory that states that Rinoa and Ultimecia were the same person - that Ultimecia was Rinoa in the future. View the article here. Right away, TK asked me if I would contact my friend at Square, which I did, and this is what she had to say regarding this topic:
Well Jesse, this is an interesting idea, not sure how valid it is, but I got some friends of mine together and we broke it down. After much research and actually talking to one of development team, we have the answer. Before we give it, we took it fact by fact.
"Fact 1: I believe that sorceresses do not age. Why? Because it never in the whole game speaks of any sorceresses dying. It speaks of Adel being from the far past, yet she is still alive. Also, present-day Cid looks a lot older than present-day Edea. It is possible Cid was as young as Edea looks when Edea recieved her powers; if this is the case, then Cid ages, but not Edea.
If it is true that sorceresses do not age then Rinoa, being a sorceress, could live on and become Ultimecia."
Reply: Actually, the game speaks a lot on Sorceress’ dying. The whole point of the first 2 disks is to kill Edea. If it was impossible to kill a Sorceress then why spend all the money and time making SeeD? [SeeD] was designed to do just that. You could make a valid point that Cid looks older, but perhaps he is. Did it occur to anyone that Cid may be older, and married a younger woman? Or that Edea is just hot for her age?
"Fact 2: It is stated in the game that in order for a person to become a sorceress, a dying sorceress must pass her powers onto them, in order to die in peace.
Rinoa, however, does not become a sorceress in this way. She becomes a sorceress after you have fought Edea in Galabadia Garden. True, you do have to beat Edea, but she's not dying, nor does she die; it is never explained how Rinoa became a sorceress."
Reply: First, isn’t this contradictory to the first “Fact”? Anyway, the game did not state that the only way to be a Sorceress was to get passed on powers. Actually you were a Sorceress at birth, but had no powers. Think of it like this: There is a pool in a town, where only 5% of the people are allowed in. And inside the pool grounds, only 2 people are allowed in the water at a time, and when one gets out, they choose who is allowed in. This rule has exceptions too. Those in the pool can splash water on those not in it. So, let’s relate that to Rinoa. The “5%” are those who are born with the ability to be a sorceress. However, inside the pool are Adel and Ultimecia. Now if they “get out” or die, then they must select another to get in. But, like with the splashing, Sorceress’ can influence others who are not in “the pool”. Like with Edea and Rinoa, who were able to be Sorceress’ but who were just controlled by Ultimecia, not really using their own powers. I hope we made that clear enough.
"Fact 3: Now I know what you're thinking, why would Ultimecia want to kill Squall if she is Rinoa? Well, there are many indications why. I believe what happened to Rinoa was, she aged and Squall didn't, and eventually he died and she lived on. Unable to take the pain she became evil. It might sound a bit wayward but read this quote from Ultimecia just before she dies:
"Reflect on your..."
"Childhood..."
"Your sensation..."
"Your words..."
"Your emotions..."
"Time..."
"It will not wait..."
"No matter..."
"...how hard you hold on"
"It escapes you..."
Time will not wait, no matter how hard you hold on it escapes you? This backs up my theory of Squall dying. She wanted to hold onto him but he died."
Reply: Well, this can be taken many ways, but the real “meaning” of the quote is in reference to the fact that this battle is destiny, and that the “heroes” have been created, so to speak, for this moment. It is also in a way saying “kiss it all goodbye” because she’s trying to compress time and kill them all.
"Fact 4: On disc 3, Squall says to Rinoa at the field next to the orphanage, "I'll be here waiting for you, I promise, etc..." and suddenly the whole intro makes sense.
Now is it just a coincidence that Ultimecia's castle is placed EXACTLY next to this? You have to ask yourself, Why the hell would Ultimecia park her castle there when she has anywhere in the whole world to put it? She is waiting for Squall at the field..."
Reply: Actually, the field is on one side of the house and the castle is off the beach side. Anyway, if you go to the field during the game, a conversation between Rinoa and Squall takes place, which resembles the one in the intro. This field also appears in the ending, in which Squall and Rinoa who are lost in time both search for the field in order to find each other. Also, the location of the castle was just something the developers thought would be “cool”.
"Fact 5: Now you might think, why would Ultimecia kill Squall when you fight her at the end, surely this is what she would have wanted -- to be reunited with Squall. This is a valid point; she does not, however, recognize that Squall is Squall. This is proven when Edea explains who she is, Squall approaches Ultimecia, and she says "who are you!?" (or something along those lines)."
Reply: This point made no sense to us. But we think we can explain whatever is trying to be said here with the fact that Edea wasn’t really Edea at the time.
"Fact 6: Now this is a big indication that it is true: Rinoa 'borrows' Squall's Griever Ring. Yes, she does get Zell to make a copy, but she never gives Squall his back. This is proven at the field when Rinoa says, "I have this dream, I get all dressed up and put on your ring... etc...".
Just before you enter Galbadia Garden, you get to name the ring, (The default is Griever).
Ultimecia has a GF.......called Griever, (or whatever you name the ring). If you remember, you get Doomtrain out of Solomons Ring.
Its possible Greiver is gained from Squall's ring, which Ultimecia would have if she is Rinoa."
Reply: This is more of an issue than Rinoa and Ultimecia being the same person. We weren’t able to come up with a reason for why the two had the same name…HOWEVER, Rinoa did return the ring. Perhaps you and your friends could write an article on this?
"Fact 7: Ultimecia has black wings, Rinoa has white wings. There is a lot of emphasis placed on Rinoa's wings (on her costume, and limit). Black = Evil, White = Good. It would be a natural progression. That is backed up by these shots taken from the ending. It appears that Rinoa's wings are changing from white to black."
Reply: Actually, these shots are taken out of context. Rinoa is breaking through the “craziness”. It actually is supposed to represent Squall trying to find Rinoa and getting past events thrown into the mix.
"Fact 8: There are 3 FMV shots of Ultimecia in the game, all are at the ending, and last less than 1/10th of a second each, barely visible (did you notice them?). Why would Square go to all the trouble of making the FMV if no one were to see it? Square is not stupid, and it would not waste time and money for nothing."
Reply: This is a good point, why go through the time, but the direction this person is going is off. Little clips like this are all over the ending. If you want to spark a debate, why not look for the picture of Rinoa with a black hole for a face from the ending. Now that is a mystery image. But if you must know, the ending is supposed to be everything that happened to squall being “thrown or smashed” through time.
"Fact 9, the biggest: Now I knew myself knew that I would never believe it unless I saw that Rinoa looked like Ultimecia, and from what i could remember she didnt. However, look at these pictures I have superimposed onto one another."
Reply, the shortest: I could superimpose my face onto Britney Spears, and say we look alike, but it still doesn’t mean we do. And if you look at the picture, the only things that actually…sort of match, are the eyes and mouth. The rest of her, the facial structure and hairline (you don’t gain hair with age) just don’t come even close.
So, Jesse, I hope my friends and I helped you all out. I know coming from a bunch of Square staffers, the answer isn’t going to mean anything, so we called up the big boys in Japan and they said this:
“Rinoa is not Ultimecia”.
LOL. How much more simplistic can it get.
As always, thanks for the interest, Jesse. If you have any more questions mail me.
Jen
P.S. Jesse, notice how on the webpage he said “all of the above are facts." How can they be facts with half-quotes, non-verified pics, and assumptions? This is a note to anyone who reads this. If you have a theory about a game, make sure everything you say is backed up 100%, and can be verified. Like what you did with the Shadow/Relm story, you showed us the exact moment in the time of a video that had the picture of Relm. That is what impressed me, and separated you from other would be “reporters." Keep up the good work."
~~~~~~~~~
Despite the Theory's obvious rejection, for the post part Square wishes to leave it open ended, you as the gamer are to decide. I've read all the evidence time again and again and still just hold it as a possible theory, not proven or nessisarily disproven either. However, for a long time I just didn't like it, because why would Rinoa turn into Sorceress Ultimecia? Crusader mentions that Squall never shows. Never suited my taste, but... Here's what I came up with:
Squall, Mr. Brave and now more adventurous that he is, somehow gets killed. Let's say, since Squall is so very strong, it's by a sorceress. Maybe not a sorceress, but he perished (even if only by natural causes).
Rinoa, once free-spirited becomes grief striken and spends her time at the field until things start to get to her.
She decides, having been in the time compression, she can -- being a sorceress-- one day get Squall back. She utilizes her powers to become a very powerful sorceress. (Seeking revenge against the sorceress who killed him- if this is so. (pick a storyline here! hehe))
Alright, she builds her Castle near the field, etc. etc. and she has the Griver ring, once Squall's.
Why does she hate SeeD? if you don't/or if you do follow the storyline where he gets killed by another sorceress, perhaps it was on a SeeD mission, or perhaps she felt SeeD never did enough to save him. Venengce on SeeD!
Okay, keep going, Why doesn't she reconize Squall.
1.) She has the most powerful GF, perhaps more powerful memory loss?
2.) Power Corrupts, we see this since Rinoa's so darn grief striken and all, now she's just corrupt with anger. (How did Edea describe Ultimecia? Very angry and- hmm, what else? Something along the line of insecure. Also, that she probably doesn't have a knight-- If Squall's dead, her knight is dead!)
OR--
who says she doesn't reconize him? Her whole life is now bent on getting Squall back-- she sees him and her younger self. Does she really think she'll convince Squall that she [Ultimecia] is really Rinoa? Fat chance.
Plus, you're gonna freak out younger Rinoa too.
Again, the final battle was a bit too easy- especially for a sorceress of Ultimecia's capabilities.
If it's Rinoa, she sees her Squall, and realizing now she cannot do anything to get him back, and can hardly bear to fight him, let's her beloved win. And gives a short speech of the past before she perishes.
Eh? That way we still get Rinoa=Ulty, and Squall and Rinoa find each other- just the story doesn't turn out so happy.
Just a thought?
