I have been culturing grindals using various combinations of potting mix, vermiculite, spaghnum moss and even coir, or more commonly known as cocopeat. My cultures were not always prolific... some just crashed right through.
When I first read of RJ, a fellow KillieTalk List member, using foam material as worm bedding, I too, experimented with medium & fine 'grit' filter sponges but ran into many problems... so often that I was running low on grindals to feed my killies!
In KillieTalk Digest V3 #1322 of 21 Jun 2001 under thread header; "RE: Use of Foam rubber for Grindle worms - Not a great idea!", RJ describes that "Synthetic cultures are tweaky things".
Simple-minded me couldn't understand what there was to tweak. All I wanted was to get the grindal culture going and feed my fishes. When system crashes, I didn't know why. But I'm learning slowly from my misadventures, which were logged as web pages for my 1st and 2nd grindal boxes.
The long faithful wait for more details on synthetic bedding was worth it and for someone who's too far away, there is hope.
All pictures shown are my own and linked to larger images,
in case you haven't got your reading glasses on.
Shopping List
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This is what I managed to get while doing the grocery
rounds.
4-box set with latch-lock lids. I'll be getting a 2nd set over the weekend. 3M scrubbing pads. Bulk pack filter wool for tank mounted box
filters
|
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3M scrubbers 5pc/pack at SG$2.oo per pack.
Measurement : 75x100mm each piece. |
December 11th 2003
With a printed set of instructions at hand, I brought
out the necessary items and got to work.
 |
RJ said, "Boxes first, The plastic shoe
box permits for restricted air circulation but it maintains a very high
degree of humidity. Condensation on the lid of the box is normal and should
be a good indicator that your humidity is ok.
If your boxes seal airtight you will benefit by not having to seal the box into a plastic bag to keep bugs out, but you will have to cut a hole into the lid to provide for air circulation. Cover the hole by taping a drip coffee filter paper over the hole. Remember you are balancing air transfer against moisture. The plastic shoe box with its loose fitting lid happens to do that by itself. If the humidity is too low the worms will not come to the surface of the scrubbers and can not be harvested.". (full excerpt below) |
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From the 4-box set, the 2nd largest fits 3 stacks of scrubber pads, with room to spare. |
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1st soak to rid any fine particles. The pads were in there for about 15 minutes. |
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A good rinse. |
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Just to be safe... a 2nd soak and another 15 minutes. |
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Drain the 'soaking water' and fill with clean water to
about 1 inch or 3 scrubber pad thickness.
DO NOT USE AQUARIUM WATER! |
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Side view to show water level in relation to stack's height. |
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A good rinse to clean the cocopeat
off the grindals.
I managed to harvest about 3/4 tablespoonful instead of the 2 tblsp. that RJ recommended. Will harvest another day and add on to the 1st synthetic box, before I proceed with a 2nd one. |
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With the top pads touching each other, I spread out the
cleaned grindals on the scrubbers and sprinkled a dash of fry
food.
I included a thermometer for convenience when recording the progress later. |
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The food is gently misted and the box lid is replaced. |
The Bug Bag:
If your lids are loosely fitting and you did not need to cut a hole
into them then fruit flies and midges can get in. Therefore put the entire
box into a plastic bag and seal the open end with a potato chip clip, twist
tie, piece of wire or solder or whatever you have.
You will be opening the bag daily or almost daily so make it easy
on yourself. Now take a razor or scissor and cut a hole into the
bag at least 1 inch by 2 inches. Cover the hole with a piece of drip coffee
filter and tape it to the bag to cover the hole.
(full instructions)
x
 |
I found a clear plastic bag that's big enough to fit
the entire box inside, with room to spare.
Since I have my cuppa from pre-packed 3-in-1 coffee mixes, I didn't have any coffee filter at home. I rigged up a 'ventilation hose' instead. |
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Rubberbands fasten the 'ventilation hose' securely to
the plastic bag without gaps for the fruit flies to squeeze through.
There! It's done and as RJ said, it's "Simple, elegant and cheap". |
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The 'ventilation hose' is nothing more than a short length of rubber hose and a wad of filter floss/wool. |
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I adjusted the amount of packed wool, so that there's a moderately free exchange of air and it's dense enough that even tiny fruit flies won't get in. |
xxxxx
While arranging the 3 stacks of scrubbers, I realized
that the box is big enough for 4 pads. I'll try this with later cultures.
|
If my grindals look a little brown instead of the creamy white color, it's due to them being gut-loaded with 'mikropan'. I bought it for the 'multi-vitamins' listed. |
 x |
x
x
My present grindal culture on cocopeat, feeding on Jacob
cream crackers, oatmeal and microwaved potatoes (set on High for 5 mins.)
A thin piece of plexiglass that's bent at one end is used for harvesting.
December 17th 2003
Click
here for the first update:
RJ's response to what I've done and my subsequent corrections
or modificatons.
February 6th 2004
Click here for 2nd update on the original "RJ-Box", plus other variations.
The following is the full extract from RJ's "KillieTalk" posting...
Subject: Killietalk Digest, Vol 5, Issue 18
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 03:12:39 -0500
From: "Tranquility Base" <TranquilityBase@NetZero.Net>
Subject: RE: [Killietalk] Grindal/white worm culture
on synthetic media STEP BY STEP INSTRUCTIONS...FINALLY
To: "killifish discussion list" <killietalk@aka.org>
Hi Ronnie,
First of all let me apologize in advance for a very likely brief but inconvenient anticipated absence from this list.
I have just done some very heroic repairs on my PC. So far I have replaced 3 drives and the power supply. I am getting an intermittent boot failure and anticipate that either the mother board or Brandy new Hard drive is about to cook. When it happens, I'll be down for at least a day to a few days depending on which component fries and how well backed up I will be. I might lose messages so if I don't reply resend your request in a few days. My anticipated rudeness is not intentional. And if you resend your e-mail more than once, I certainly wont think you rude.
OK, now to the worms:
Boxes
first:
The plastic shoe box permits for restricted air circulation
but it maintains a very high degree of humidity. Condensation on the lid
of the box is normal and should be a good indicator that your humidity
is ok.
If your boxes seal airtight you will benefit by not having to seal the box into a plastic bag to keep bugs out, but you will have to cut a hole into the lid to provide for air circulation. Cover the hole by taping a drip coffee filter paper over the hole. Remember you are balancing air transfer against moisture. The plastic shoe box with its loose fitting lid happens to do that by itself. If the humidity is too low the worms will not come to the surface of the scrubbers and can not be harvested.
The medium:
The medium itself will not transfer moisture from the
water bath at first. But it will not dry as you are keeping it in a very
high humidity environment. As it accumulates bacteria dirt etc, it will.
As the pores clog you will need to rinse the scrubbers under rapidly running
water (ie.high pressure tap or hose). The worms will not live in the water
bath nor will they live in a medium that retains moisture. The moisture
the worms need comes from the high humidity in the container.
The scrubbers in your photo look ok, as long as they are not the ones that have the pot scrubber abrasive material on one side. They should be made of the same material through and through. Water should run through them pretty freely, but you should not be able to see through them. Different scrubber densities will produce scrubber cultures that have slightly different characteristics. Less dense material tends to take longer to get started, but over time becomes more productive. The packs you have look like they are contain about 5 or six scrubbers each. Choose a box in which you can put 3 packs in side by side. The stacks should be touching so that the worms can move freely from one stack to another.
The water bath:
Recap: you have 3 stacks of scrubber pads touching each
other in the center of a plastic box. The lids either fit loosely or snap
air tight in which case you have made a small hole in the lid and covered
same with coffee filter paper and taped it securely to the lid to keep
fruit flies and midges out.
Next: Flood the whole box with water. Let it soak for 5 minutes making sure that the scrubbers are well wet. Then dump the water. If you feel that there is soap or some other contaminant in either the media or the container rinse it until you are certain that the material is clean. Add water to the shoe box until the water covers only the bottom (lowest) 1 to 2 pads.
The bug Bag:
If your lids are loosely fitting and you did not need
to cut a hole into them then fruit flies and midges can get in. Therefore
put the entire box into a plastic bag and seal the open end with a potato
chip clip, twist tie, piece of wire or solder or whatever you have.
You will be opening the bag daily or almost daily so make it easy on yourself. Now take a razor or scissor and cut a hole into the bag at least 1 inch by 2 inches. Cover the hole with a piece of drip coffee filter and tape it to the bag to cover the hole.
The synthetic worm environment is now complete! Simple, elegant and cheap.
Prepare for feeding the worms:
I use regular oatmeal. I put it into a blender and grind
it to the consistency of flour. I then put the oatmeal into a grated cheese
shaker and sprinkle the food thinly on top of the top layer of pads.
The worms will come up out of the media to eat the food and once gorged
lay about there.
Too much food will mold and can be washed off. Too little food will starve the culture. Start feeding lightly and increase the amount of food as the worm population increases. You should feed daily, the amount of food you add each day should be eaten within 24 hours.
Now that you have food prepared, you are ready to add worms. Start your culture wth one to two tablespoons of worms. Put the cleaned and washed worms right on top of the culture and sprinkle oatmeal thinly over them. If you add too many worms they will overproduce too quickly and everything will die! I believe that the risk of the boom and bust cycle will continue until a bacteria culture establishes itself. Is there any way to introduce a bacteria culture without taking one from an established culture?
I don't know I developed mine over time. As you are starting with a small culture graft, you should be ok for at least a few weeks. Be patient! It could take several weeks for your culture to reach sufficient population density for you to start harvesting.
When you see the top of the pads covered with worms you will need to harvest. If you do not harvest in time you culture will overpopulate and almost everything dies. (too much waste?, not enough air?, ammonia build up due to lack of bacterial culture?, All of the above?...Yes)
To harvest:
Fill another container about 2 inches deep with water.
Remove the top pad *only* and invert it. Dip the pad into the container
containing the water.
The worms will float off and sink to the bottom of the container. Replace the pads atop their respective stacks in the culture and feed. Close the culture and reseal in bag as appropriate. You will be repeating the harvesting and feeding process daily until your culture becomes stable.
The harvested worms will drown in the water in about 1/2 hour. So pour off the excess water, pour the worms with the remaining water into a cup. Feed the worms using a baster or large eyedropper type apparatus.
Start with at least two cultures and keep your dirt cultures going until you get a few stable synthetic cultures producing. Things are going to go wrong. Don't panic, it is part of the learning curve. You will develop a feel for the process over time. Just like keeping anything alive there is some element of judgment involved. New cultures are tricky, I have lost my share of them. If they overpopulate and go bust just wash them out and start over.
When I started I was on my own, you should feel free to share your concerns with me, most likely I have made every mistake you are likely to encounter. I will be happy to answer your questions.
Note for other people on this list following along:
I regret that I will be going through this process completely only once in the foreseeable future due to time limitations. I will reply to inquiries from people who are actually working along with Ronnie and myself and then principally regarding set up procedures for the next week or so. Please limit your questions to issues regarding actually setting up your cultures. Don't be shy ask. If you are afraid to ask get someone to ask for you.
After next week I will only address issues regarding your developing cultures. Then we will move on to issues regarding harvesting etc. When relaying your concerns please include the type of worms you are using, temperature, any deviations from the formula you have made and detailed symptoms of the problem. The more information you give me and the more specific your questions are the more likely you will be to get a prompt reply.
I have made a few additional comments below.
Peace and good luck,
~RJ~
-----Original Message-----
From: killietalk-bounces@aka.org [mailto:killietalk-bounces@aka.org]On
Behalf Of Ron @ CCK
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 3:06 PM
To: killietalk@aka.org
Subject: [Killietalk] Grindal culture on synthetic media
(was re: White WormKeeper)
Dear RJ,
I was on graveyard shift the past week but did manage to get some the things you've listed;
> So if you are interested, start with the following purchases:
> 3 plastic shoe boxes Steralite or equivelent. The lids
should
> fit snugly but not be air tight.
The use of shoe boxes is not widely practiced locally
but the corner
store had some plastic 4-box sets on offer. Will
this work?
https://www.angelfire.com/journal2/fishz/grindal/Soiless/GrindalBoxT.JPG
> Aquire sufficient scrubber pads to cover the bottom
of 2 of
> the shoe boxes 5 or six layers deep. Note, they
need not cover
> the entire bottom of the shoe box. There is nothing
wrong with
> being able to see the water bath when opening
the top.
Near the corner store, I bought some filter wool, commonly
used in
tank-mounted overflow filters. Can I suppliment
and combine the wool to
make up for the thickness?
I don't know. It might work. One fellow has adapted my procedure to feed cantaloupe melon, it works a treat for him. Some deviations will undoubtedly improve on what I have done. Others will not work. Do two cultures the way I do then feel free to experiment. The more things that people try the more likely someone will be to improve on my work. This is a good thing. If something works better report it to me and the list. Just remember, success requires stability. Some things I tried worked great for a while but could not be sustained. Some sponges for example showed early promise but were impossible to clean when they took on a vile odor.
> The scrubbers shoud be equivelent to the green 3M variety
used
> in households to clean dishes. You can usually
find them at
> 99 cent shops in the US.
The nearest equivalent to the 3M product scrubbers you
described was
this; https://www.angelfire.com/journal2/fishz/grindal/Soiless/Grindal3Mpads.JPG
These are 5pc packs measuring 75x100mm each. I
didn't buy alot of it,
in case it wasn't the correct item. If it is, then
I'll go buy more.
I prefer the 4X6 inch size, or the 6x10 inch variety, but what you have should be ok. See my notes above.
> Obtain 2 plastic bags large enough to be sealed around
two
> of the shoe boxes.
I have those thin and white garbage bags... but what
would I need them
for if there's already a well fitting lid?
If bugs can't get in and the seal is air tight like Tupperware, make a *small* hole in the lid and cover with filter paper as instructed above. Remember the hole should not be too large *humidity is critical*.
> Although the synthetic white worm and the grindle worm
> are substancially the same size and appearance, they
> clumped differently in water.
Can you expand on the 'synthetic white worm' and are
they able to
tolerate higher temps than 'regular' white worms?
In my grindal
culture, I'm also looking a 2 different crawlers and
one of them look
awfully like overgrown planaria.
Most of my experience with flat worms has been bad. The ones I have had ate fish eggs and fish did not eat them. If you have a good flat worm that fish will eat and than does not eat fish eggs, by all means try it.
Synthetic cultures are pretty tolerant when it comes to temperature. Temperature has a different effect on soil and synthetic cultures. In soil cultures you are dealing with oxygen permeability in soil, as well as water retention and the chemical properties of the soil at different temperatures, in synthetic cultures oxygen is not an issue, the media is inert and humidity remains nearly 100% regardless of the temperature.
My test grindal worms were most productive in the 70 DF range but produced down to about 60DF and up to about 80DF the synthetic white worm which were the smaller worms that out competed or evolved from the larger ones from a common white worm starter culture are productive from under 50DF to about 85DF.
I believe that there are countless types of worms masquerading as one worm or another. When one of my grindal worm cultures crashed a tiny microworm type population survived. It was great for fry, but as I already had microworms I never did anything with it. You will just have to experiment with the worms you have.
As you are pretty much as far away from me in NJ USA as is possible while still being on the same planet, it is very unlikely that the worms I have stem from the same source as yours. For example, I have never seen a flat worm in a grindal worm culture. Once you start your synthetic culture, it is likely that one worm will out compete the other. As long as your fish eat it it will be the right worm.
Peace,
~RJ~
Page compilation by Ronnie Lee
Created : Dec 7th 2003
1st Update : Dec 16th 2003
2nd Update : Feb 6th 2004
