NEVERMORE Interview with Warrel Dane
at the IRock Nightclub 01.19.00
ID: You guys have used Neil Kernon for about every recording now, so you must be very pleased with him...
Warrel: Yes.
ID: C'mon, expand. What is it you like about him?
Warrel: His ability to pull performances out of us that we didn't necessarily know we had inside us. Especially me.
ID: So he pushes you.
Warrel: He knows how to push your buttons, and to say the right things to get what he wants. He obviously works so well with us that we work with him on every Nevermore record. The plan, so far, is to use him again; although, we want and expect it to sound quite different. Sonically. Not musically, but I think his production's amazing and some of our records--like the last two--the sound quality is really close. Nevermore is a band that has always wanted to not be predictable, and wanting to try new things, and to expand. I think part of expanding is changing your sound a little bit, but in that, not sacrificing any of the heaviness. In fact, what we've always done is try to get heavier with each record. What we did with Politics... is tried to get heavier musically, and what we did with Dreaming Neon Black is try to get heavier and more depressing lyrically.
ID: Yeah, I think you've succeeded there!
Warrel: (Laughs.)
ID: Was there a reason why you chose him in the beginning?
Warrel: He chose us, actually. We met him at a bar in Seattle; he was at one of our shows. He said, "I'd really like to work with you guys." My mouth dropped with, "My god, you did Rage for Order!" The Queensryche album. He engineered on Beast in the East which is the best live album ever recorded in the history of heavy metal. He's done a lot of butt rock, too, but he doesn't do that anymore now. He totally got into the more extreme side of metal.
ID: Sanctuary put out two releases before disbanding. What led to the demise?
Warrel: Grunge.
[The door to the "dressing room" of the IRock was fucked up that night...No one could get in. You have no idea how many times we were interrupted by this, it was fucking hilarious almost.]
Warrel: There was a certain feeling from a couple members of the band that pushing in the grunge direction would be more commercially viable and prosperous thing for the band. In other words, a couple of people in the band decided they wanted to sell out. I thought that would be a betrayal to Sanctuary fans because they would have seen it for what it was, which was a sell out. A couple of us were good friends with the guys in Alice In Chains, and we came home from tour and suddenly some of our friends were rock stars. That had a lot of impact, mentally, on some of the guys in the band. They thought, "You know, we wanna be rock stars, too." My aspiration was never to be a rock star. I just wanted to play music and express my feelings through lyrics, and you know, hopefully that'll make people happy. Frankly, I've never really cared for the rock star lifestyle. I don't want to become a drug addict and ruin my life, and I've seen it happen to lots of people that I know. It's really difficult.
We had a huge fistfight; I got a broken knuckle. See that right there? [Shows me his hand...] I got that from punching my guitar player in the face. He told me, "Fuck you! I AM Sanctuary. I make all the decisions." I just went "BAM!"
ID: I think I would have done that, too...
Warrel: Eh, you know, it was a hard time, but we're all friends now again. Which is nice, because we can be and there's enough space between all that. I'm glad it's all behind me. Although, there's always the subtle hint "How about that reunion album?" It will never fucking happen because anybody that would say that is gonna wanna do it for the wrong reasons. Although there is a number of Sanctuary fans that would be disappointed with that statement [YES! --Jamie] I'd like to clarify the fact that anybody that used to be in the band would probably want to do it just to make money. And I wouldn't want any part of that.
ID: When there's a band the caliber of Sanctuary [breaks up], do you think it's easier to form another band like Nevermore?
Warrel: It's very difficult, actually. I mean, we got our foot in the door because of Sanctuary, but we've struggled, severely, for the last three records. And finally I think we're getting our momentum back that we had when Into the Mirror Black came out. But it hasn't been easy! And this is something that a lot of musicians starting out don't really know how difficult it is even to get a break in the business, and really, the only reason I'm sitting here talking to you right now is because of Dave Mustaine.
ID: Really.
Warrel: He produced our first Sanctuary record, and I have a huge debt to him for that. I haven't spoken to him in years.
ID: What do you think of the new Megadeth?
Warrel: I...C'mon! What kind of question is that? I respect him as a musician, so much. That's all I can tell you. I'm more into death metal and extreme metal now. That's not really my cup of tea anymore. It's well done for what it is.
ID: So the fame from Sanctuary didn't give you guys a kickstart or anything?
Warrel: Well, it did, yeah. That's how we got signed. If we would've been a new band, I think it would have been far, far more difficult to get a record deal. I mean, one of the problems was when Sanctuary broke up, the record company kept Jim and myself under contract for, like, three years! During those three years we did demo after demo after demo. They were trying to influence us to follow the Seattle sound.
ID: I'd say "Fuck off..."
Warrel: Well, you know, when you're signed to a major label and they won't let you go, it's difficult to say, "Fuck off." But we didn't want any part of that because that's what the downfall of Sanctuary was influenced by, so...That was just like a second slap in the face.
[More fun door-opening problems..."Even the people that WORK here can't open the damned door! (laughs)" --Warrel]
ID: On the In Memory CD you chose to do two Bauhaus songs. From what I hear, you feel that was a darker album than the others. What's behind the feelings on the CD?
Warrel: Well, some of them were songs that were left off of the first Nevermore record because we paid to record that ourselves. When we signed to Century Media, of course, they're a label and dealing with their economic structure, they're saying, okay, we don't think you need to go back in a record these songs; this demo sounds like album quality. Looking back on it, I really think those songs are great, but I really wish we would have redone them. When we were preparing to do Politics of Ecstasy, we realized there was going to be a gap between records and one of the ideas that we had was to use some of these old songs that we didn't have enough money to record at the time. We thought they were too good to NOT release. That's why we put that out. I think that's one of my favorite Nevermore albums. Although, the mastering that was done in Germany ruined the sound quality, I think. We recorded it at the same time we recorded Politics..., and if you listen to Politics of Ecstasy...
[Interrupted by "WOW, that was fuckin' interesting!"]
Warrel: Sonically, those two records are really very far apart, and all just from mastering. Our producer wasn't there when In Memory was mastered; I think the sound suffered so much from that. I know they're some of my favorite Nevermore songs, and the sound quality just is not up to par on that one. I think any time an artist isn't present when their music is being done this way, the sound suffers.
ID: You think you'd ever record them on another disc?
Warrel: No.
ID: Well, since you did choose Bauhaus songs, do you get into other gothic-type music?
Warrel: Well, you know, I get into all types of music; I'm very open-minded musically. Heavy metal is my main focus. I listen to all types of death metal. Primarily, death metal and black metal, right now. For me, that's the most interesting music that's coming from the metal genre. I don't listen to much of what I call "happy metal." I'm a depressed person--most of the time, anyway.
ID: See, that's why I like gothic because I'm that way. Though, I like gothic, black metal, death metal...
Warrel: Yeah. I love anything melancholy, dark...There's a lot of gothic bands that fit that. I always thought that if you're going to reinterpret a song the best thing to do is take a song that you know. Lyrically, that song for me is really heavy. With “Silent Hedges/Double Dare” I thought, this is a song that can be made extremely heavy musically as well.
ID: So, tell me about the newer album, Dreaming Neon Black...
Warrel: It's OLD! It's been out since last February...We've written five new songs for the new record, and I have about five album titles and I just don't know what it's going to be called yet!
ID: You don't have much time left on this tour, right?
Warrel: No, we've been on tour since last March. We've been to Europe three times, this is our fourth tour of the US. This has been really, really a lot of hard work for us, but I think in these times, for metal to survive, people need to work harder, and I can really see the underground getting stronger. Especially when we toured with Mercyful Fate a couple of months ago. The underground hasn't gone away; it's just that there's less information being fed to the people that listen to underground music, because of the media. Even some of the underground zines still focus on more obscure stuff. Actually, the underground zines have been really great to Nevermore, so I can't complain. This is one thing about being on a major label as opposed to being on a smaller one. A major label would never arrange an interview like this one.
ID: Yeah, I kind of had to arrange this one myself...[Due to previous problems that occurred with a scheduled phone interview.]
Warrel: When we started doing Nevermore stuff, one of the things I was being told was "We tried to get an interview with you when you were in your old band, but the record label told us it wasn't possible." I mean, what the fuck is up with that? If you would have gotten my phone number and called me and asked for an interview, that's not what I would have told you! They were only focusing on HIT PARADER and KERRANG! and RIP. That just tells me that they don't know what the hell they're doing. Major labels don't understand this kind of music and they're not suited to this kind of music because they don't understand it. I'm really happy with Century Media for the way they've promoted this record. I mean, there are drawbacks to both sides. One drawback to being on a label like this is that the distribution's really poor. We're being told constantly that people can't find our records in the stores.
ID: In the US you're getting told that?
Warrel: In the US, yep.
ID: Really!
Warrel: Yep...Everywhere else in the world is completely different. It's a different state for heavy metal right now. Heavy metal didn't really go away; it may have experienced a small lull, but it's never been dead. And it's getting far stronger right now. Canada's a little bit weird, but the record's done so good in Canada all of a sudden. South America's the same way. I'm much happier being on an independent [label] that knows what the underground is and knows how to work the underground, as opposed to a major that sees the underground as insignificant.
ID: The underground is huge, bigger than I thought, until I got involved in it with this zine.
Warrel: You don't have to tell me, I know.
ID: How does Nevermore go about writing?
Warrel: Umm, acid and Quaaludes.
ID: (Laughs)
Warrel: Just kidding (laughs). We've always approached songwriting differently for each record. Right now, it's just Jeff and myself that are writing all the songs. Jim has always contributed heavily, too. I wish I had a tape of some of these songs to play because some of it is so fucking brutal...I think what we're gonna do with the next record is explore dimensions of brutality more. And to try to combine in even more melodic stuff. We'll see what happens!
ID: I have to tell you this...You're voice is just...AMAZING.
Warrel: I SUCKED tonight!
ID: NO, you did NOT! You did not suck at all.
Warrel: (Laughs.) It wasn't my best show. I'm glad you said that...
ID: Well, it's true.
Warrel: I've only cancelled one show in my entire career. My voice is a bit hashed because I've got the flu. But the show must go on.
ID: Do you ever use anything that you've written a few years back that didn't feel right at the time, but...
Warrel: Yes. (Laughs.)
ID: (Laughs.) Okay...
Warrel: Mainly lyrics. I save all the lyrics I write. Sometimes I forget. Sometimes I write them so fast. I read through my journals and I'll find stuff that I didn't even remember that I wrote.
ID: So you keep journals then...
Warrel: Well, of course. I have to.
ID: Why?
Warrel: Because I forget stuff. Sometimes it comes out of my brain so fast that I don't remember it even while I'm writing shit down!
ID: I wish I could do that. I always start one and then never continue with it til six months down the road or something.
Warrel: I'm trying to write a book now, too.
ID: About? Your life?
Warrel: No, it's an expanded, long-form version of Dreaming Neon Black. It's really the most trying, difficult thing I've ever done. It's driving me crazy, right now.
ID: What exactly is it based upon? I mean, what is Dreaming Neon Black based upon?
Warrel: Well, Dreaming Neon Black is based upon a true life experience for me, for one of my ex-girlfriends that disappeared after joining a religious group. She told me I was evil and horrible, Satanic, all this crap. She disappeared, and still the body's never been found. I believe she's dead.
When I was writing that album, when I was writing the lyrics I came up with so many other possible advents of the story, it'd make a great novel. And not so autobiographical as the record. It's been really hard for me; it's really challenging. I'm somebody that always wants to push myself and find a new boundary to break through. It's really difficult, I'll tell you that much. I don't even know if I'm going to finish it. It might take years!
ID: What's it like getting to tour the world? You did it in Sanctuary, and now you're doing it with Nevermore.
Warrel: Ah, well, the thing about that is what I always tell people I feel like I'm just so goddamned lucky. I've gotten two chances to do this. Most people don't even get one chance; it's hard enough to even get your foot in the door in this business. Just the fact that I've gotten TWO chances to do it makes me feel really fuckin' lucky. Just knowing that a lot of people aren't given that chance, AT ALL, makes it weirder for me. I think I realized the reason why that happened is because I have a really strong work ethic and I just decided once Sanctuary got signed, it hit me in the face really quickly that you don't get anything handed to you on a platter. Once you get a record deal, it doesn't matter if you're on a major label or a smaller label, you have to work fifteen times harder than you ever did before. A lot of young musicians starting out don't realize that.
ID: Right, because you've got demands from the label, more fans...
Warrel: Exactly. I'm just lucky that I've got another chance, and I'm not going to waste it. I'm not gonna let this one fall apart like the last one did over stupid, petty crap about people wanting to change their music style because they don't know the theory of perseverance.
ID: Do you feel there has been a certain turning point or a specific "break" in Nevermore's career so far?
Warrel: Well, this record is definitely breaking through for us. Especially in Europe. Ya know, America's always a little bit behind. I think people here are still absorbed in the current trends, but I can see the tide turning slowly. I'm really encouraged by the current state of metal. I can see it happening, really. People are getting tired of stuff like Limp Dickshit. I respect those guys because they're doing what they wanna do...I just don't wanna listen to that stuff. I'm sure they probably call us buttrock.
ID: What if all the extreme music becomes mainstream...
Warrel: It never will.
ID: What if...
Warrel: It won't.
ID: I know it won't, but...
Warrel: See!
ID: Humor me.
Warrel: Well...It would become far less credible in the underground, obviously. All the underground people would find something else.
ID: You say it'll never happen, but I see it happening.
Warrel: No.
ID: Yes, I do. I will tell you why. I see kids at Cradle of Filth shows who are wearing Marilyn Manson shirts and baggy jeans.
Warrel: Oh, that's scary! That's creepy. Marilyn Manson and Cradle of Filth are worlds apart.
ID: I don't know if it's a good thing or not.
Warrel: It's probably good. Because if you can get kids from that area of musical style...Stuff like Korn, Limp Bizkit...If they can hear similarities between Tool and...hopefully Nevermore maybe, even though there are no similarities at all, except maybe that we're both "heavy". We're on a compilation cd with Korn and Limp Bizkit...
ID: Yep, the "Hard N' Heavy" one...
Warrel: Nobody even told us!
ID: I know, I looked at that CD and literally went 'What the fuck?' Whoever put that CD together, what were they thinking?
Warrel: Well, no, we're lucky we're on that. It's helped our album sales enormously. Yeah, I was shocked.
ID: But! You know who's buying it...Korn and Limp Bizkit kids.
Warrel: I know! You know what? If we can steal 'em away...HA HA HA HA! Fuck you, posers! That is a really frightening theory, though, when extreme becomes the mainstream. Where do you go from there?
ID: Right, where do you go next? But it's even becoming trendy to find something even more extreme to stay away from the mainstream.
Warrel: Exactly. How can you get more extreme than death metal? Stuff like Cannibal Corpse, and Napalm Death, Carcass. How do you get more extreme than that? But you're right, when the extreme becomes the mainstream, it's Armageddon, baby!
To read part II of the Nevermore feature interview (with Jim Shepard), click here.
