The Creation and Degeneration of Ramapithecus - a complex ape in the Garden of Eden

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Ramapithecus

Ramapithecus (RAH mah PITH ee cuss) - was discovered by __________ in _________ (under construction).

The name "Ramapithecus" means: "Rama's ape". The fossils of Ramapithecus were found in India and named after the Hindu prince "Rama" (pg 44 "In the Age of Mankind" by Roger Lewin)

(Does Lucy's Child" by Donald Johanson say "diety"?)

The first in the human line?

It was claimed that Ramapithecus was the "first member of the human line"(pg 44 "In the Age of Mankind" by Roger Lewin)

This is a rather highly exalted place for a fossil to be. The truth is quite different though. Ramapithecus is just a complex form of orang-utan.

In 1961 Simons placed Ramapithecus at the root of the family tree. He did this on the basis of "jaw shape, build, and teeth characteristics". Simons was soon joined by David Pilbeam in support of Rama's ape. (pg 45 "In the Age of Mankind" by Roger Lewin)

Evolutionists claim that Ramapithecus lived between 14 million to 8 million years ago.

(I do not personally accept this date: See the chapter on carbon dating for more info).

Here is a picture of how the public is misled with paintings of Ramapithecus. You can see that many human characteristics have been applied to these apes. How much of this creature was actually found?

Lets look at the fossils of Ramapithecus

The jaws

The fossils used to support Simons and Pilbeam's claim were 2 halves of an upper jaw. (pg 45 "In the Age of Mankind" by Roger Lewin) . The jaw was broken in half, and the middle section of the palate which connected the two pieces was missing. This allowed them to reconstruct the jaw into an arc-shaped (human-like) jaw, rather than in a "U" shape (like an ape).

Lewin says: "Incomplete fossils led researchers to reconstruct a Ramapthecus palate in a form similar to a human palate" (pg 44 "In the Age of Mankind" by Roger Lewin)

If the truth be told it was their preconceptions that Ramapithecus was related to us that led to this reconstruction, not incomplete fossils.

The teeth

The cheek teeth (__) had thick enamal (pg 45 "In the Age of Mankind" by Roger Lewin)

Ramapithecus had small incisors, and small canines. (pg 47 "In the Age of Mankind" by Roger Lewin) . In contrast modern (fallen) apes have large canines.

Lewin admits that the "interpretation went far beyond the anatomy"(pg 47 "In the Age of Mankind" by Roger Lewin)

Lewin says: "As it turned out, however, the shape of the Rampithecus jaw was not parabolic, like a human jaw, but V-shaped instead, which is neither humanlike nor apelike." (pg 47 "In the Age of Mankind" by Roger Lewin)

This V-shape is unique.

The canines "do not imply tool use, but merely a different type of diet" (pg 47 "In the Age of Mankind" by Roger Lewin)

I would add that it does not imply a relationship to man either, just a simiar diet, which as God says we had in the beginning.

The picture here is a partial reconstruction of the lower face from Fort Ternan. (info and picture source: pg 67, Origins by Richard Leakey and Roger Lewin, 1977, E.P. Dutton, New York, N.Y.)
The mandible on the right comes from Turkey. (info and picture source: pg 67, Origins by Richard Leakey and Roger Lewin, 1977, E.P. Dutton, New York, N.Y.)

Two different jaws from 2 different countries ( Africa and Turkey) gave us an idea of what Ramapithecus looked like. But from these jaws, they speculated what the rest of the body looked like, along with its posture, body hair etc

The jaw was reconstructed in such a way as to curve at an angle that was somewhere in-between the angle of a mans jaw and the angle of an apes jaw. Their theory was that a creature with a jaw at this "in-between" stage would be on its way to becoming human. The problem is, if the apes in the Garden of Eden were more complex than they are now, (and had a diet of only vegetation) then many of these apes may have started with a jaw that more closely resembled man's than they do now.

But, later more pieces of the jaw were found. When these were studied and reconstructed, they found that Ramapithecus was not an "ape-man", but an ancestor to the orangutan.

Many people make it sound like Ramapithecus is just an ordinary orangutan. This is not so, and no anthropologist who has studied the fossils have made this claim. There are differences. These differences need to be recognized and explained.

I have never had much respect for those who treat Anthropologists in such a way as to suggest that they are so incompetant (despite their years of training) that they can not distinguish between a living and a fossil ape. It may be difficult based on a scrap of bone the size of a nickel, but surely an anatomist would recognize the jaw of an orangutan if he/she saw it.

There is a lot of tampering with of fossils that they do find though, and this I do not respect.

Some people brush off Ramapithecus by saying it was "ancestral" to the Orangutan, often (mis)quoting evolutionists who have spoken on this species.

However what you will see when the quotes are in their proper context is that though they do in fact believe that Ramapithecus and / or Sivapithecus were ancestral to the Orang, they do point out the differences between this living and extinct species.

What we need to do as Christians is take a look at these differences and try to figure out what these differences mean. Do we attribute them to variation within a species, or to Evolution? Is it possible that these differences can be explained within a Biblical context?

I believe that the fossils attributed to Ramapithecus can best be explained within the context of the Creation to Degeneration (De-volution) model of Origins.

Ramapithecus was more like "Orang-apithecus"

In the Garden of Eden we would see the orangutan in its original state (maximum complexity). After Adam sinned, these apes began to degenerate through the generations. There would be many changes over many generations. The Ramapithecus remains we find are not the ones with maximum complexity. They are farther down the line, past the half way point, and closer to the end (which is the Orangutan).

The flood happened a few thousand years after the Creation. It is not yet known whether the remains we find of Ramapithecus are pre or post flood.

The maximum complexity orangs had degenerated already at the time of the flood, so they would not be preserved as fossils in their original state. What we would find is apes somewhere inbetween their present state (orangutan) and their original state (maximum complexity).

These apes were created perfect, the same way man was, but began to decline in complexity from the day Adam sinned until now.

The differences we see in between Ramapithecus and todays Orangutans may be evidence of degeneration. I believe that Ramapithecus degenerated into what we now call the Orangutan.

If we could examine a living Ramapithecus (Ramapithecine ?) we would see that it is superior to Orangutans in many ways.

For one, it could probably walk upright, though we do not have the body to verify this.

Some claim that Ramapithecus was the first ape to walk upright on two legs. - How do they know that Ramapithecus walked upright? Did they find and study the leg bones, the knee joints or the feet? The answer is: No. They didn't find any of these bones. In fact all they found was a few pieces of jaw and some teeth. "The pelvis is probably the most diagnostic bone of the human line…. Yet an entire Ramapithecus, walking upright, has been ‘reconstructed’ from only jaws and teeth…. The prince’s ape latched onto the position by his teeth and has been hanging on ever since, his legitimacy sanctified by millions of textbooks and Time-Life volumes on human evolution." "There are still no skulls, no pelvic or limb bones unequivocally associated with the teeth to show whether Ramapithecus had a brain like a hominid, swung through trees like an ape, or walked upright like a human." quote from: Zihlman, Adrienne L., and Jerold M. Loewenstein, "False Start of the Human Parade," Natural History, vol. 88 (August/September 1979), pg. 89 (From the book "That their words may be used against them")

Is Ramapithecus a living fossil?

In his video __ Roger Oakland says that Evolutionists have abandoned Ramapithecus as mans ancestor because living Baboons in Ethiopia have the very same tooth structure. Oakland gives no references for this, and since he is incorrect about almost everything else he says regarding fossil apes and man, I think it is wise to look into this claim more closely as well.

In his video "The Origin of Man", Duane Gish says that Alan Walker dismissed Ramapithecus as being an orangutan. Gish says:
"Alan Walker stated that the modern orangutan in his view is a living fossil, because he believes the modern orangutan is essentialy the same as the fossil [of Ramapithecus] that they had found that they claimed to be 17 million years old."

I agree that there are no evolutionary changes (from ape to man) in Ramapithecus, but there have been changes due to degeneration (from complex to degenerate form).

Again as Christians we must ask more accountability from people who speak on these topics (myself included). Gish gives no reference for this "quote" from Alan Walker. I have tried to track it down in Walkers books and articles. I simply don't see where Gish got his information from.

On 10/9/01 I contacted Dr. Walker about this "quote". Here is his response:
"I have never written such a thing. It sounds like a malicious intentional misquote or lie."
Alan.

So where did Gish get this information from? Did he make it up? Or did he use a secondary source for his information?

Gish quotes neither a primary or secondary source for his info. What should we do about this?

I believe Dr. Walker when he says he didn't say this, but who did? As Christians we need to be more careful about who we quote and how.

On 10/11/01 I contacted Dr. Walker again, and spoke with him at great length about Ramapithecus.

He said that Ramapithecus "looks nothing like an orangutan".

He said that Rampithecus has smaller canines. When I asked him if Ramapithecus walked upright, he said "I have no idea if it was bipedal".

Many Scientists have abandoned Ramapithecus as mans evolutionary ancestor.

"The case for Ramapithecus as an ancestral human has been weak from the start and has not strengthened with the passage of time. Now that the molecular data are in, the mythical prince’s ape, who would be man, has faded until nothing is left but his smile." Zihlman, Adrienne L., and Jerold M. Loewenstein, "False Start of the Human Parade," Natural History, vol. 88 (August/September 1979), pg. 91 (That their words may be used against them)

Here’s another evolutionist admitting that Ramapithecus is not a missing link.

"The oldest human fossils are less than 4 million years old, and we do not know which branch on the copious bush of apes budded off the twig that led to our lineage. (In fact, except for the link of Asian Sivapithecus to the modern orangutan, we cannot trace any fossil ape to any living species. Paleontologists have abandoned the once popular notion that Ramapithecus might be a source of human ancestry.) Thus, sediments between 4 and 10 million years in age are potential guardians of the Holy Grail of human evolution-the period when our lineage began its separate end run to later domination, and a time for which no fossil evidence exists at all."
quote from Stephen Jay Gould, "Empire of the Apes," Natural History, vol. 96 (May 1987), pp. 20-25 p. 24 (T.T.W.M.B.U.A.T) Emphasis mine.

Duane Gish has studied the fossil record in depth. He reveals that this change of heart is because as more of the jaw was found it was determined that Ramapithecus was only an orangutan. Reference: Origin of man video - I reject this based on Gish's lack of knowledge of primate anatomy, and also his (seeming) inability to provide a source for this info.

I believe that Ramapithecus was actually one of the complex apes of Eden. I believe Ramapithecus degenerated over a period of time - after Adam sinned. I believe the inferior orangutan is what remains of this complex ape.

Most apes and Old World monkeys (define) the canine teeth are quite long and sharp. Sharp canines are used to defend against preditors, and also help tear apart food.

In the Garden of Eden there was no death or bloodshed, so Ramapithecus would not need large canines.

"Fossil hominoids such as Ramapithecus may well be ancestral to the hominid line in the sense that they were individual members of an evolving phyletic line from which the hominids later diverged. They themselves nevertheless seem to have been apes-morphologically, ecologically and behaviorally"
Robert B. Eckhardt, "Population Genetics and Human Origins," Scientific American, vol. 226 (January 1972), pp. 94-103.

"The case for Ramapithecus as a hominid is not substantial and the fragmentary material leaves many questions open."

p. 176 "I am reluctant to anticipate further new discoveries, but I would expect that the genus Homo will eventually be traced into the Pliocene at an age of between 4 and 6 million years, together with Australopithecus
(from the book "That their words may be used against them")

One of the most interesting things about Ramapithecus is the fact that remains have been found in Turkey. This is where the Bible says that Noah's ark came to rest after the flood. Since Ramapithecus and other complex apes were on the ark, we would expect to see traces of them moving away from Turkey as time goes on.

Remains of Ramapithecus have been found in Kenya, Hungary, Pakistan and Turkey. ("Origins" by Richard Leakey and Roger Lewin, 1977, E.P. Dutton, New York, N.Y., pg 68)

Here is a top view of an orangutan skull. Notice the post orbital constriction.

Here is a picture of an orangutan mandible (top view). You can see the rectangle/square arrangement of the tooth rows.

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.

Ramapithecus, an extinct group of primates that lived from about 12 to 14 million years ago, for a time regarded as a possible ancestor of Australopithecus and, therefore, of modern humans. Fossils of Ramapithecus were discovered in N India and in E Africa, beginning in 1932. Although it was generally an apelike creature, Ramapithecus was considered a possible human ancestor on the basis of the reconstructed jaw and dental characteristics of fragmentary fossils. A complete jaw discovered in 1976 was clearly nonhominid, however, and Ramapithecus is now regarded by many as a member of Sivapithecus, a genus considered to be an ancestor of the orangutan. See also human evolution."

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