Debate between NOI member and I

Originally a aquaintance of mine started the debate with the NOI memeber, I just took over for him. The following is the NOI member’s response to my aquaintance’s questions and the rest are my response to him.

NOI

You asked, "AND WHY CAN U JUS CALL SOME GUY ORIGANALY NAMED ELIIJAH POOLE BORN BAPTIST WHO LATER BECAME MUSLIM A PROPHET?" I say, we don't call the Honorable Elijah Muhammad a Prophet. We recognize Prophet Muhammad, of 1400 years ago as the Last Prophet of Allah. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad is Allah's Last and Greatest Messenger to we, the Black man and woman in America. He was "A WITNESS" raised by Allah from among the Black Nation in America. Messenger Elijah Muhammad always said that he brought to us a "New Islam". His Message is different from the Message Prophet Muhammad received 1400 years ago. You say Messenger Elijah Muhammad is "only a forger", but as the Holy Qur'an teaches, "Allah knows best what He reveals".

You said, "WHUT MALCOLM X DID WAS THE RITE THING" I say, what Malcolm X did was the same thing 'Abd al-'Uzza (Abu Lahab) did. We didn't kill him. We didn't have to. We left him to Allah, as the Holy Qur'an teaches, and he got the same chastisement that Prophet Muhammad's uncle and any other hypocrite gets, as taught in Chapter 111, and other places, in the Holy Quran. You asked, "ARE U GUYS GONNA CALL LOUIS GOD NOW?" We will not call him the Supreme God, but as we are taught by OUR MESSENGER, "every time you look at a Black man you see a God." Thank you for writing.

Me

Whats with this racism stuff you people always seem to pull out from every circumstance? It wasnt about racism that the Prophet(pbuh) or any other prophets faced on their mission, It was the ignorance of the people of their old pagan ways versus the prophets' message; those were the Prophet's(pbuh) enemies as well as many other prophets of before. I bet if you guys went even further, you would say the war between the Carthinogians and the Romans was a race war as well. Well its not, it was a war over trade and influence; to which goes to show you that you people would take certain circumstances and change it to fit your "agenda".

It seems basically you people are racist and more like "black-nationalists" and its really ignorant of you even to further bolster these claim with verses from the Quran thats used so out of context with your false and contradiciting claims. Your method sounds much similiar to the KKK in which they bolster the supremacy of their race from the bible as well. Lets take a look at these out of context verses that are used shall we? 16:84 says: And on the day when We will raise up a witness out of every nation, then shall no permission be given to those who disbelieve, nor shall they be made to solicit favor. This ayaat(verse) refers to as quoted from Tafseer-E-Usmani(tafseer is a commentary on the Quran, this one particularly by Usmani a descendant of one of the sahaabas), "They(unbeleivers) should remember that the Day shall come when all the past and future nations stand in the Divine Court, and the Prophets and good men of the nations shall stand as a witness to the response given by every nation to the Divine Message. At that time the Rejectors shall not be allowed to speak or get rid of punishment by repenting. And for what will they speak? When they will have known that they are criminals and no apology shall do there, and they will also understand that it would not be the World of Action(Earth or the material world) but it would be the World of Recompense (Day of Judgement) and as such repentance shall be no avail there.

16:93 says: And if Allah please He would certainly make you a single nation, but He causes to err whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases; and most certainly you will be questioned as to what you did. This verse refers to Allah's Power and how if He wanted to, He could've have created the world as one nation or one religion, But He choose not to but instead allowed us to choose on our own the path and be held accountable for it. As for "but He causes to err whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases; and most certainly you will be questioned as to what you did" this can refer to Allah sending down prophets to guide mankind to the true path and the people would be accordingly judged based in the acception or rejection of the prophets. Also Allah himself guides those who want to be guided in the first place, those that want to learn and search for truth and those Allah would guide, He would not guide those who are stone hearted with ignorance. Allah can also guide anyone whom He wished out of ignorance. This is all based on this ayaat that says "Allah does as he pleases" and you can refer this verse 16:93 with in conjunction with : O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.(49:13)

16:101 says: And when We change (one) communication for (another) communication, and Allah knows best what He reveals, they say: You are only a forger. Nay, most of them do not know." This ayaat refers to the Quran and how when Muhammed(pbuh) received new revelations that abrogatted certain previous verses, the unbelievers start to say "You are only a forger" but in this tafseer from tafseer-e-usmani of an ayaat explains it fully "the fact is that the whole Quran was not sent down at one time. The verses were sent down according to the occasions. Some of them enjoined timely orders. Then another order came when the circumstances changed, i.e. in the early days of Islam, the order was to restrain from bloodshed, after a time the order for Jihad was given, or during the early period the Prayer of Tahajjud was obligatory, afterwards the obligation was forgiven in Sura Muzzammil. When the unbleievers heard these things, they objected and said how could it be the Word of God when the verses were changed from time to time. It means, they argued, that God sent the first order out of ignorance, and when He got the knowledge He sent the 2nd order. So by these reasons, they said. the Quran was not the Divine Word and was simply forged by Muhammed himself, otherwise there was no question of change in the Divine Commandments. Probably the Satan might have also injected such doubts into the hearts of the Muslims. So their objections are answered with satisfactory arguements as in the ayaat. They are told that their objections were simply based on ignorance. If they know the meaning of Nasakh they(Unbeleivers) wouldve not uttered such words. Naskh simply means the change of order like the change of medicine. If a doctor changes the medicince in the prescription observing the improving condition of a patient under treatment, then no one but a fool would say that the doctor is inefficient or unwise. Similarly the Heavenly Constitutions are just like Spirtual Prescriptions, and God knows very well the spirtual diseases of the people, and He knows very well what spirtual medicines and diets should be given to the people who require spirtual health."

So based on these ACTUAL translations and ACTUAL context of these verses, you cannot assuredly state that only blacks belonging to Nation of Islam are the true Muslims. True Muslims are Muslims who do good works, follow Allah's commandments and the 5 pillars WITHOUT adding anything new and follow the straight path without going towards the extremes. Say: O my servants who believe! be careful of (your duty to) your Lord; for those who do good in this world is good, and Allahs earth is spacious; only the patient will be paid back their reward in full without measure.(39:10)

Ok i hope you got through this part of the response, now for the next issue. You claim that you still consider Muhammed(pbuh) the Prophet of Allah yet you say Elijah Muhammed is the last and final messenger of Allah. Pardon for putting this candidly but "give me a break with this nonsense!" It seems your group isnt the only only group that claims this falsied fact. The Ismailis, a break away sect from the shia sect have the same beleifs. Also the Bahai's also beleive this same nonsense but decided to form their own religion after massive persecution by the Shias and also the Ahmadiyyats/Qadianis seem to have this same concept of a last great messenger after Muhammed(pbuh). ASTAGFIRULLAH is the only thing i can say about this and this erroneous and contradicitng beleif. Here is proof that disproves this erronoues belief that of a LAst and greater messenger than the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh).

Holy Prophet Mohammed SAAW said: "In my Ummah, there shall be born thirty grand liars (dajjals); each of them will claim that he is a prophet; But I am the Last of the Prophets; there shall be No Prophet after me." (Abu Dawood and Tirmizi)

The Prophet of Allah (PBUH) affirmed: "The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me." (Tirmidhi, Kitab-ur-Rouya Babu Zahab-un- Nubuwwa, Musnad Ahmad, Marwiyat-Anas bin Malik)

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things. (HQ 33.40)

Even Great knowledgable scholars state the following:

Imam Hafiz Ibn-e-Katheer: "This verse is conclusive of the precept that our Prophet (SAW) is the last and that there shall be no Nabi after him. When there shall be no Nabi to follow him the ordainment of a Rasool cannot arise by logic of anterority because the status of a Rasool is more exclusive then that of a nabi. Every Nabi is not a Rasool but every Rasool is a Nabi. There exists a continuous and unbroken chain of citations of Ahadith from a large number of venerable Sahabah or Companions of the Prophet (Allah be pleased with them), that there shall be no Nabi or Rasool after Muhammad (SAW)". (Tafseer Ibn-e-Khateer vol. 3 p453)

Imam Ghazali: "No doubt the Ummah has unanimously understood from this word (Khatam-un-Nabieen) and its circumstanial reference to mean non-existance of a Nabi or Rasool ever after Muhammad (SAW) and that (this word calls for) no reservation or tacit interpretation in it; hence its dissident is certainly the one who rejects the Ummahs unamity".(Al Iqtisad fil Etiqad p123)

So based on all this information, can you perhaps tell me(along with the other so-called "Muslims",that claim another messenger after Muhammed) where did you get the idea that this person, this Elijah poole is a final messenger??

This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.(5:3)

This further indicates that what was revealed to Muhammed is COMPLETE and does not require a NEW message in any shape or form And again you try to justify Allah's words Out of CONTEXT by saying "Allah knows best" in terms of saying Allah knows best in making Elijah Poole a Last messenger, then you tell me this. Why would Allah, after stating many times in the Quran as well as telling Muhammad(pbuh) that the Deen of Islam is complete and that he is the last MEssenger and Prophet? Allah does what He pleases, but he never goes against his policies which he tells us specifically in the Quran.

Ok now on for the next topic, how dare you bring down brother Al-hajj Malik al-shabazz like that? Hearing this almost brings me to tears after how a brother, wallowed through ignorance found the light of Al-Islam by Allah's grace. How dare you EVEN COMAPRE Him to the greatest khufr in Islamic history Abu jahl??? Whats different between these two people is that Abu Jahl was an ignorant and died an ignorant while for Brother Malik, he was ignorant yet died righteously as a matyr in a way. In a way for perhaps waking up the ignorant members of the NOI to towards true Islam and such matyrdom in Islam is common. Second of all in terms of chastisements, he got such chastisements from you people who tried to bring him down after his transformation from a bigot to a true Muslim. Allah guided him to the true path since Allah guides whom he wishes and Malik's example is perhaps shown in the NOI now how many of its members are realzing the truth and leaving the membership for True Islam and not corrupted hatred and bigotry.

And know for the final rebuttal,"every time you look at a Black man you see a God." such a saying really shows it is racist in nature and perhaps you people are hippocrites in that sense. I recall that the christains also used the concept of saying "God is white" or "God is blue-eyed blond haired" and blah blah blah. Allah has no color and race, He transcends beyond that. He is something we cannot not comprehend ourselves so have you yourself seen God and was able to say that? but then again that results in polytheism, after all there is more than a black person so as a result there are many gods???

Well i hope you have read through all this and decided upon your own whats right. And next time, please dont use Quranic Verses so out of context and to prove contradicting points for not only it makes you look bad but also it really doesnt help. In final, I would give at least "some props" to the NOI, perhaps for atleast introducing and exposing islam to the blacks who then many of them, like Al-Hajj Malik Al Shabaazz, took it as a stepping stone to the true path.

May Allah Guide you to the true path

Jazakhairullah

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