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Open to
Interpretation - the REAL Variags - Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=Open
to Interpretation - the REAL Variags
Replies [44]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
21:09].
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Tolkien wrote little of the Southern or Eastern
tribes of Middle-Earth. We do not know that much about them,
and we should not pretend to, but the hints are there. I am
showing logically my opinions, and I do not claim them to be
correct, but hopefully you will understand how well put the
argument is. It’s not clear-cut or black and white as to who
the easterners were, but Games Workshop has based them on real
tribes from our world, which would seem the right thing to do;
Tolkien admits that his work was intended as a pre-history to
our own (the War of the Ring was suggested to be about 6000
years ago I think).
PART ONE - The
Easterlings
Anyway, we are not dealing with clear-cut
tribes, but a mix of races loyal to Mordor. Their hostility to
the West would make it difficult for the Gondorians to learn
anything about them, so their ignorance is justified. However,
we do have a number of names and one-line descriptions, if
that is of any use.
Firstly, Games Workshop’s
“Easterlings” represent the Balcoth, a confederation of
separate tribes united by their hate of Gondor (or fear of
Sauron). Games Workshop has given them “Kataphracts”, and the
fact that this is based on cataphracts would suggest that they
are Byzantines. Compare this with our own world: the Byzantine
Empire outlasted the Western Roman Empire, and considered
Italy something theirs by right that had been taken by the
Visigoths. Now look at the LoTR situation: Khamul the
Easterling, a Black Numenorean, could have convinced the
Easterlings that Gondor (ruled by the Faithful) was theirs by
right.
Secondly, we have Games Workshop’s Khand range.
I believe these have been mislabelled, but again it is merely
because of lack of understanding by Gondor. Two tribes are
named from Khand in Lord of the Rings: the “Wainriders”, and
the “Variags”. A wain is a type of wagon, so it would make
more sense for the “Mongols” to be named as Wainriders.
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So who are the
Variags? - Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=So
who are the Variags?
Replies [2]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
3:00].
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PART TWO - The Variag
Regiment
This leaves the identity of the Variags till
last. Firstly, we must look at our own world: “Variag” means
Varangian (Vikings loyal to Byzantium) in Russian. Games
Workshop gave the Easterlings Kataphracts, and the Variags are
their allies. Surely if Games Workshop does this, it is
plausible to make Variags Vikings. Now let’s look at what we
have from the book. We have a brief description of
axe-wielding easterners. Now, because of the Gondorian
ignorance I have mentioned above, this could apply to any
tribe, but the Variags are the most likely candidate. Tolkien
was a scholar of both Old Norse and Old English – the Rohirrim
speak a language akin to Old English (intended to be its
ancestor). The Men related to the Rohirrim moved far and wide
throughout Rhovanion: the most well known are the Rohirrim
themselves, but there were also the Men of Dale to the north.
These were displaced by the Balcoth, but what if some had made
the same distance moving south, or had allied with the
Easterlings? That would put them in the middle of Khand, and
they could speak a language similar to Old Norse (and thus put
them as a branch-off of Rohirrim).
Ultimately, it is
because of Gondor’s records that we cannot prove this, but we
can give strong evidence of it, not only by looking at Tolkien
and the book itself, but also by taking a page out of GW’s
book, and stepping into the world of Catapharacts and
Varangians, and translating it as Kataphracts and Variags. It
can be argued either way till the wains come home, but while
neither side can be proven, it is more likely that Games
Workshop’s interpretation would make Variags Varangians
instead of Mongols, which would be Wainriders. Either way, the
two tribes lived in Khand in alliance, so aside from
intermarriage; it may not have been possible for the
Gondorians to know one from the other.
Still, I’ll call
GW’s Variags Wainriders, and it’s up to you to decide what you
think.
Kataphractes pro Vikingr
-Grimhelm of
Snowbourn
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RE: So who are the
Variags? - MOD-Khamul Of The Nine
(Steve) mailto:shammatt@hotmail.com?subject=RE:
So who are the Variags?
Replies [1]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
3:00].
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>> Tolkien was a scholar of
both Old Norse and Old English – the Rohirrim speak a language
akin to Old English (intended to be its
ancestor).
Sorry to be pedantic, but the Rohirrim
didn't speak a language akin to Old English, it's just that
Tolkien used a language similar to Old English when he
"translated" the Red Book. In a similar way the Common Speech
was "translated" into English.
Khamul/Steve.
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RE: RE: So who are
the Variags? - Grimhelm
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
3:00].
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>> >> Tolkien was a
scholar of both Old Norse and Old English – the Rohirrim speak
a language akin to Old English (intended to be its
ancestor).
>>
>> Sorry to be pedantic, but
the Rohirrim didn't speak a language akin to Old English, it's
just that Tolkien used a language similar to Old English when
he "translated" the Red Book. In a similar way the Common
Speech was "translated" into English.
>>
>>
>> Khamul/Steve.
I know it's not meant to be
Old English, but some of the "untranslated" proper names are
similar to Old English.
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RE: Open to
Interpretation - the REAL Variags - MOD-Khamul Of The Nine (Steve) mailto:shammatt@hotmail.com?subject=RE:
Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags
Replies [40]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
21:09].
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>>
>> Two tribes are
named from Khand in Lord of the Rings: the Wainriders, and the
Variags
Where did Tolkien say the Wainriders were from
Khand ?
As far as I know they weren't they were
Easterlings. They were said to have allied with Men of Khand
(Unfinished Tales), but Tolkien wouldn't have needed to say
that if they were from Khand
themselves.
Khamul/Steve.
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RE: RE: Open to
Interpretation - the REAL Variags - Armenelos
Replies [39]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
21:09].
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>> >>
>>
>> Two tribes are named from Khand in Lord of the Rings:
the Wainriders, and the Variags
>>
>> Where
did Tolkien say the Wainriders were from Khand ?
>>
>> As far as I know they weren't they were
Easterlings. They were said to have allied with Men of Khand
(Unfinished Tales), but Tolkien wouldn't have needed to say
that if they were from Khand themselves.
>>
>>
>> Khamul/Steve.
Why did GW make the
chariots for khand instead of the easterlings?It would have
made more sense since the easterlings are the wainriders.
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RE: RE: RE: Open
to Interpretation - the REAL Variags - mithaearon
Replies [6]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
10:55].
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>> Why did GW make the
chariots for khand instead of the easterlings?It would have
made more sense since the easterlings are the
wainriders.
Yes waht Steve (no offence) is trying to do
here is defend GW to the hilt eventhough the same logic he
uses to put down otherviews can equally (if not more so) apply
to GW's view.
Thats why I find this board a little
annoying to visit sometimes. It seems if you don't share GW's
point of view you are wrong and need to be burnt down. Its
almost like 1984 around here sometimes. I have seen people
that once had their own opinion now no longer show it. Of
course I can accept that yes sometimes that will be in
agreement with GW, heck mine is most of the time, but then
there are times when I do wonder if resistance is futile ;)
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags - MOD-Khamul Of The Nine (Steve) mailto:shammatt@hotmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags
Replies [4]. This
Reply Posted [2/2/2006 9:51].
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>>
>> Yes waht Steve
(no offence) is trying to do here is defend GW to the hilt
eventhough the same logic he uses to put down otherviews can
equally (if not more so) apply to GW's view.
>>
>> Thats why I find this board a little annoying to
visit sometimes. It seems if you don't share GW's point of
view you are wrong and need to be burnt down. Its almost like
1984 around here sometimes. I have seen people that once had
their own opinion now no longer show it. Of course I can
accept that yes sometimes that will be in agreement with GW,
heck mine is most of the time, but then there are times when I
do wonder if resistance is futile ;)
I'm sorry you feel
that way. I'm sorry to hear that you think it's wrong for me
to express my opinion about things.
Perhaps you could
explain what you don't like about my responses in this thread
though, e.g. the Wain Riders coming from Khand (or not)
?
Khamul/Steve.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
mithaearon
Replies [3]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
9:51].
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>> I'm sorry you feel that
way. I'm sorry to hear that you think it's wrong for me to
express my opinion about things.
Thats just it, it's
not wrong to express "your" feelings about things, its wrong
not too! Latly I have noticed that some people nolonger seem
to have their own opinion its seems to be as if GW have brain
washed them.
I don't mean to pick on you but in the
past 12 months you have not disagreed with GW even on some
highly controversial issues. No I could accept that a lot of
the time you would agree with them but 100% of the time never
disagreeing? I see that as potentially harmful to the game as
GW have made some clangers in the past and if we the public do
not let them know they are on the wrong path the game will
fall. I known you from the beginning and back then you had a
voice now it seems (it may not be but it does seem that way)
that it is only GW's. For once it would be nice to hear you
say "yep GW are wrong on that". Now I will admit that on this
one you do agree with them and I totally willing to accept
that point of view.
At the end of the day I don't
although I do like the models (except the one maned chariot
but I already have a replacement). I shall just be using them
as a different tribe of Easterlings and getting alternative
Variags.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
Aule_the_creator
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
8:22].
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GW made khand to be the book
easterlings, seeing as they can't call them easterlings (see,
the moviemakers have already given that name to the other
guys).
so hence they are the book easterlings, except they
are said to be from khand for licencing reasons
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
Aule_the_creator
Replies [1]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
9:51].
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GW made khand to be the book
easterlings, seeing as they can't call them easterlings (see,
the moviemakers have already given that name to the other
guys).
so hence they are the book easterlings, except they
are said to be from khand for licencing reasons
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags
- Fleetmaster
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
9:51].
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>> GW made khand to be the book
easterlings, seeing as they can't call them easterlings (see,
the moviemakers have already given that name to the other
guys).
>> so hence they are the book easterlings,
except they are said to be from khand for licencing
reasons
That's what I have always thought, although the
movie Easterlings could, of course be another tribe (like the
Balchoth)
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags - Necronjb
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
10:55].
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>> seems if you don't share
GW's point of view you are wrong and need to be burnt down.
Its almost like 1984 around here sometimes.
I see where
you're coming, from, but it seems to me that you are not
Phased out (Excuse the Pun, Necrons/Phased Out) if you oppose
GW's view, moreover if you oppose the majority view, which is
often, though not always GW's view. For example, GW released
the Madril model, so their view was that it was good, but
almost everyone on this forum hated it!
As another
note, if people stop saying things because their views are
being ignored, then they don't really believe in
them.
Sorry if this sounds rude,
James
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RE: RE: RE: Open
to Interpretation - the REAL Variags - MOD-Khamul Of The Nine (Steve) mailto:shammatt@hotmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags
Replies [25]. This Reply Posted
[2/4/2006 21:09].
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>> Why did GW make the chariots
for khand instead of the easterlings?It would have made more
sense since the easterlings are the wainriders.
GW
probably wouldn't have been allowed to make chariots for the
Easterlings since that would be too far removed from the film.
They obviously got permission to put them on horses but
chariots might have been a step too far.
You can always
think of the Khand model as book-based Easterlings if you
want.
Khamul/Steve.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags - hilltroll
Replies [3]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
11:39].
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>> You can always think of the
Khand model as book-based Easterlings if you
want.
That's what I do, GW "Easterlings" will always be
Southrons to me.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
Suladan the Great
Replies [2]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
11:39].
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Hmmm. Perhaps Steve is bribed by
GW...
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
B3A57
Replies [1]. This Reply Posted [2/2/2006
11:39].
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>> Hmmm. Perhaps Steve is
bribed by GW...
or black mailed...
Mat Ward 'Defend
our products or the puppy gets it!'
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags
- Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags
Replies [0]. This
Reply Posted [2/2/2006 11:39].
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>> >> Hmmm. Perhaps Steve
is bribed by GW...
>>
>> or black
mailed...
>> Mat Ward 'Defend our products or the
puppy gets it!'
Now let's not go that far :p
If
anything, Steve's on our side, because he's on the forum
arguing opinions and referencing the Letters of Tolkien
without getting paid by GW (I hope you're listening, GW!)
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags - Grimhelm
mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags
Replies [1]. This
Reply Posted [2/2/2006 11:39].
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@Steve
>> >> Why
did GW make the chariots for khand instead of the
easterlings?It would have made more sense since the
easterlings are the wainriders.
>>
>> GW
probably wouldn't have been allowed to make chariots for the
Easterlings since that would be too far removed from the film.
They obviously got permission to put them on horses but
chariots might have been a step too far.
>>
>> You can always think of the Khand model as
book-based Easterlings if you want.
>> >>
Two tribes are named from Khand in Lord of the Rings: the
Wainriders, and the Variags
>> Where did Tolkien
say the Wainriders were from Khand? As far as I know they
weren't they were Easterlings. They were said to have allied
with Men of Khand (Unfinished Tales), but Tolkien wouldn't
have needed to say that if they were from Khand
themselves.
As I say, it's supposed to be lack of
understanding on the part of the Gondorians. The Wainriders
and Variags were allied when they attacked Gondor; one eastern
tribe had axes, and the other had chariots. So the Gondorians
were confused, and mislabelled the Wainriders (charioteers) as
Variags when it probably referred to the axe-wielders. Of
course, Tolkien's works are supposed to be from Gondor's
perspective (a copy of the Red Book was written for King
Elessar), so Games Workshop is in some ways right to do what
they did. It's just I'll be calling them Wainriders instead of
Variags.
@Aule and Fleetmaster
>> >>
GW made khand to be the book easterlings, seeing as they can't
call them easterlings (see, the moviemakers have already given
that name to the other guys).
>> >> so hence
they are the book easterlings, except they are said to be from
khand for licencing reasons
>> That's what I have
always thought, although the movie Easterlings could, of
course be another tribe (like the Balchoth)
The Balcoth
were a confederation of Easterlings, so it could have been any
tribe represented by the Film Easterlings. I think that my
Balcoth/Byzantine analogy explains the alliance of Easterling
tribes quite well, though.
@Steve/Mith
>> I'm
sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry to hear that you think it's
wrong for me to express my opinion about things. Perhaps you
could explain what you don't like about my responses in this
thread though, e.g. the Wain Riders coming from Khand (or
not)?
I'm sorry he feels that way too.
So far,
you've only questioned the Rohirrim speaking an ancestor of
Old English. Tolkien intended LoTR to be a pre-history of our
own world - logically he would translate Rohirric into Old
English as we would translate Old English into English. Note
also the untranslated proper names. Take Guthlaf for example:
this Old English name is only known from one real-world source
- a fragment of the "Fight at Finnsburg". It is interesting
that Tolkien would translate the Rohan name into another name
that was virtually unknown to Old English scholars. This would
suggest that it was a name that was a variant of Guthlaf.
There are other untranslated names to support the Rohirrim to
Old English theory.
The Wainriders were allied with the
Variags. We don't know where they came from, but logically
Khand would be the most likely origin.
"You know you've
been playing too much LoTR... when you get into this kind of
an arguement" ;)
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags - MOD-Khamul Of The Nine (Steve) mailto:shammatt@hotmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags
Replies [0]. This
Reply Posted [2/2/2006 11:39].
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>>
>> >> Where
did Tolkien say the Wainriders were from Khand? As far as I
know they weren't they were Easterlings. They were said to
have allied with Men of Khand (Unfinished Tales), but Tolkien
wouldn't have needed to say that if they were from Khand
themselves.
>>
>> As I say, it's supposed
to be lack of understanding on the part of the Gondorians. The
Wainriders and Variags were allied when they attacked Gondor;
one eastern tribe had axes, and the other had chariots. So the
Gondorians were confused, and mislabelled the Wainriders
(charioteers) as Variags when it probably referred to the
axe-wielders.
Ah ok, sorry, I see what you mean now.
That's an interesting way to look at
it.
Khamul/Steve.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
IvanKalazic
Replies [15]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
21:09].
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>> >> Why did GW make the
chariots for khand instead of the easterlings?It would have
made more sense since the easterlings are the
wainriders.
>>
>> GW probably wouldn't have
been allowed to make chariots for the Easterlings since that
would be too far removed from the film. They obviously got
permission to put them on horses but chariots might have been
a step too far.
>>
>> You can always think
of the Khand model as book-based Easterlings if you
want.
>>
>>
>>
Khamul/Steve.
I think that too Steve.
But no one
stops GW to make unoficial rules for Easterling heavy chariot
and publish rules in future WD, with other Easterling and
Khand troops and heroes.
That would be very nice. ;)
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags - MOD-Khamul Of The Nine (Steve) mailto:shammatt@hotmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags
Replies [14].
This Reply Posted [2/4/2006 21:09].
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>> But no one stops GW to make
unoficial rules for Easterling heavy chariot and publish rules
in future WD, with other Easterling and Khand troops and
heroes.
>>
GW still need approval from New
Line/Tolkien Enterprises for anything they publish on LOTR,
including in White Dwarf and on the
website.
Khamul/Steve.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags
Replies [13].
This Reply Posted [2/4/2006 21:09].
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>> >> But no one stops GW
to make unoficial rules for Easterling heavy chariot and
publish rules in future WD, with other Easterling and Khand
troops and heroes.
>> >>
>>
>> GW still need approval from New Line/Tolkien
Enterprises for anything they publish on LOTR, including in
White Dwarf.
Really? Even for the map/rope/etc rules
for battle companies they put in WD 312? That must cause a
delay before printing.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags
- Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags
Replies [12].
This Reply Posted [2/4/2006 21:09].
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>> >> >> But no one
stops GW to make unoficial rules for Easterling heavy chariot
and publish rules in future WD, with other Easterling and
Khand troops and heroes.
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >> GW still need
approval from New Line/Tolkien Enterprises for anything they
publish on LOTR, including in White Dwarf.
>>
>> Really? Even for the map/rope/etc rules for
battle companies they put in WD 312? That must cause a delay
before printing.
And what about the "Magicians" in
BGiME?
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags - MOD-Khamul Of The Nine
(Steve) mailto:shammatt@hotmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags
Replies [11].
This Reply Posted [2/4/2006 21:09].
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>> >> >>
>> >> >> GW still need approval from New
Line/Tolkien Enterprises for anything they publish on LOTR,
including in White Dwarf.
>> >>
>>
>> Really? Even for the map/rope/etc rules for battle
companies they put in WD 312? That must cause a delay before
printing.
Yes, really. But GW are well used to what
needs doing, so I don't think it causes any real
dalays.
>>
>> And what about the
"Magicians" in BGiME?
They will have gone through the
normal approval process too. We're getting somewhat off-topic
here though, discussing exactly how the approvals process
works is off-topic (since it's really a business question
rather than a hobby one), and I don't know the full details
anyway.
Khamul/Steve.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags - Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the
REAL Variags
Replies
[10]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006 21:09].
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>> >> >> >>
GW still need approval from New Line/Tolkien Enterprises for
anything they publish on LOTR, including in White Dwarf. We're
getting somewhat off-topic here though, discussing exactly how
the approvals process works is off-topic (since it's really a
business question rather than a hobby one), and I don't know
the full details anyway.
>> Khamul/Steve.
Back
on topic, using my theory, I think that Games Workshop should
do the Wainriders as the Rus (13th century Russians) to
counterbalance the Variags as Mongols. This would make sense,
because the Russians allied with the Mongols against the
Teutons, just as the Variags allied with the Wainriders
against Gondor.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags - Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation -
the REAL Variags
Replies
[9]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006 21:09].
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>> I think that Games Workshop
should do the Wainriders as the Rus (13th century Russians) to
counterbalance the Variags as Mongols. This would make sense,
because the Russians allied with the Mongols against the
Teutons, just as the Variags allied with the Wainriders
against Gondor.
Actually, now that I think about it,
I'd like to see GW release some wains (carts for those who
don't know), and I'm sure others would too. At the moment all
I have is Gandalf on Cart to double as a transport for
weaponry! :D
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags - Liosalfar
Replies [8]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
21:09].
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>> >> I think that Games
Workshop should do the Wainriders as the Rus (13th century
Russians) to counterbalance the Variags as Mongols. This would
make sense, because the Russians allied with the Mongols
against the Teutons, just as the Variags allied with the
Wainriders against Gondor.
>>
If its not too
much to ask, could we cool it on the 13th century references,
and stick with the Dark Ages/Migrations era
influences?
Note
anything?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga
Also:
I am really uncomfortable about ret-conning Tolkien. His work
is as it is. Tolkien's work may contradict itself, but unless
we can do a whole lot better, I am content to take the man's
word for it.
Gavin
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the
REAL Variags - yipaint
Replies [1]. This Reply Posted [2/3/2006
3:57].
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>> >> >> I think
that Games Workshop should do the Wainriders as the Rus (13th
century Russians) to counterbalance the Variags as Mongols.
This would make sense, because the Russians allied with the
Mongols against the Teutons, just as the Variags allied with
the Wainriders against Gondor.
>> >>
>>
>> If its not too much to ask, could we
cool it on the 13th century references, and stick with the
Dark Ages/Migrations era influences?
>>
>>
Note anything?:
>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga
>>
>> Also: I am really uncomfortable about ret-conning
Tolkien. His work is as it is. Tolkien's work may contradict
itself, but unless we can do a whole lot better, I am content
to take the man's word for it.
>>
>>
Gavin
I'm beginning to feel the same way. All of the
references from our world and history to Tolkien's and vice
versa is getting old. I'd rather there be more references to
what is already in the LOTR miniature line, and whether new
models fit in as well as be mostly true to the
book.
That is the purpose of the miniatures after all,
right? To display the movie depictions? The game originated
from the movies, which came from the books, so shouldn't GW
look at the movies AS WELL as the books? If it came straight
from the book, no reference from the movies whatsoever, we'd
be looking at nothing but cliched, oldschool GW
WHFB-turned-LOTR minis...ugh... And actually, I find only a
few differences in these new Khand models from the older
Easterling ones. Cliches are still there, even though they
come from "multiple" cultures instead of just a carbon copy of
one.
I admire the research and theory everyone is
throwing out on the forum, but nobody seems to care what
already exists in the range. Designing new models according to
ME-as-our-world would not fit in with models of Movie-ME. Why?
Movie ME is not entirely based on our world. It does draw some
influence, but it has its own feel to it. When that feeling is
lost (opinions matter here), as I feel it has been, the models
are no longer of movie ME but just models that are used for
the GW game (and sometimes not even that).
How many
people, after seeing Rohan for the first time in TTT, said to
themselves "Man, these guys are way too
Anglo-Saxon/Norse/Whatever to fit into ME?" My guess would be
only a few, and those people would be a little too analytical
in my opinion. Everyone accepted the fact they were from
Rohan, not France or Britain or some other Dark Age
country.
As to Steve and mith, I'd have to side with
mith and ask Steve, why have you backed up GW 100% of the way
so far on the Variag topic? And also, why such a closed mind
on everybody's ideas and opinions? They do matter, and if the
majority of the people on the forum agree/disagree with
something of GW's design, why would GW turn a blind eye? This
is a great place to find an idea of what the community is
thinking, be it praising or criticising GW.
My stance:
the Variags should fit in more with the movie LOTR line and
feel as if they'd been missed in the filming process. Cliches
and references to "Our world" do not cut it in my
book.
yipaint
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation -
the REAL Variags - MOD-Khamul Of
The Nine (Steve) mailto:shammatt@hotmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to
Interpretation - the REAL Variags
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [2/3/2006
3:57].
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>>
>> As to Steve and
mith, I'd have to side with mith and ask Steve, why have you
backed up GW 100% of the way so far on the Variag
topic?
Please could you clarify (without going over the
whole debate all over again) exactly what I'm backing up
regarding the Variags ?
I certainly back up the fact
there are only two lines on the Variags in the book, and no
description of what they look like.
>> And
also, why such a closed mind on everybody's ideas and
opinions? They do matter, and if the majority of the people on
the forum agree/disagree with something of GW's design, why
would GW turn a blind eye? This is a great place to find an
idea of what the community is thinking, be it praising or
criticising GW.
>>
Where have I said that
other people's ideas don't matter ?
I've disagreed with
some other people's opinions and ideas, is that not allowed
?
Everyone here is allowed to state their on-topic
opinions, as long as they stay polite.
Please could you
help me understand what I've done wrong here with specific
examples ?
Khamul/Steve.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the
REAL Variags - Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to
Interpretation - the REAL Variags
Replies [5]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
21:09].
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>> >> >> I think
that Games Workshop should do the Wainriders as the Rus (13th
century Russians) to counterbalance the Variags as Mongols.
This would make sense, because the Russians allied with the
Mongols against the Teutons, just as the Variags allied with
the Wainriders against Gondor.
>> >>
>>
>> If its not too much to ask, could we
cool it on the 13th century references, and stick with the
Dark Ages/Migrations era influences?
>>
>>
Note anything?:
>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hervarar_saga
>>
>> Also: I am really uncomfortable about ret-conning
Tolkien. His work is as it is. Tolkien's work may contradict
itself, but unless we can do a whole lot better, I am content
to take the man's word for it.
>>
>>
Gavin
I completely agree with staying within the lines
of the "Dark Ages" and the barbarian migration period.
However, you somewhat contradicted yourself, as the Mongol
migrations (the last barbarian migrations of the Medieval
period) WERE in the 13th century. Furthermore, Russia's
backward economy and inefficient feudal system meant it was
very much in the "Dark Ages" until Tsar Peter the Greats
social reform and modernisation of the country in the 16th
century. I don't really see the point of comparing the 13th
century Hervarar saga with Tolkien just because it mentions
shieldmaidens (I think he was more greatly influnced by the
Finnsburg Fragment and Beowulf), but 13th century Russia would
be no more advanced than 7th century England (about as
advanced as the Rohirrim in the film).
I suppoe I don't
really want the Variags to wind up as Russians (though it is
an interesting idea); rather I want to see a few more carts in
the game ;)
Of course, as has already been pointed out
before, the Varangians also included a few Anglo-Saxons and
Goths in its earlier stages, so it would be more along the
lines of Variags as Rohirrim (or Men of a related race)
serving Sauron as mercenaries - which I guess isn't too bad
because we already have Khandish Mercenaries!
-Grimhelm
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation -
the REAL Variags - gilgaladstarofradiance
Replies [4]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
21:09].
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I don't think gw should have called
them variags, khandish warriors i can understand but the
models to me look very 'wainrider'. now they were from khand
but the variags were a completely different tribe from the
wainriders and i allways thought they were half-trolls and i
thought tolkien did say thet somewhere. but if it's just my
brain playing up again, i'm sorry.
well that's my
lot
'Do not come between a seagull and his chips',
sorry couldn't help it
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation
- the REAL Variags - Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to
Interpretation - the REAL Variags
Replies [3]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
21:09].
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>> I don't think gw should have
called them variags, khandish warriors i can understand but
the models to me look very 'wainrider'. now they were from
khand but the variags were a completely different tribe from
the wainriders and i allways thought they were half-trolls and
i thought tolkien did say thet somewhere. but if it's just my
brain playing up again, i'm sorry.
No, I don't recall
any Easterling tribes being half-trolls. They should
definately have been Wainriders, but we don't really know
because Gondor never really investigated which tribe was
which.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to
Interpretation - the REAL Variags - MOD-Khamul Of The Nine (Steve) mailto:shammatt@hotmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open
to Interpretation - the REAL Variags
Replies [2]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
21:09].
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>> >> i allways thought
they were half-trolls and i thought tolkien did say thet
somewhere. but if it's just my brain playing up again, i'm
sorry.
>>
>> No, I don't recall any
Easterling tribes being half-trolls. They should definately
have been Wainriders, but we don't really know because Gondor
never really investigated which tribe was
which.
"Half-trolls" are mentioned in the chapter "The
Battle of the Pelennor Fields" :
"Gothmog the
lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings
with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out
of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and
red tongues."
That's they're only mention in the book,
and they seem to be from Far Harad, not the
East.
Khamul/Steve.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to
Interpretation - the REAL Variags - Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE:
Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
7:00].
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>> >> I always thought
they were half-trolls and i thought tolkien did say thet
somewhere. but if it's just my brain playing up again, i'm
sorry.
>>
>> "Half-trolls" are mentioned
in the chapter "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields"
:
>>
>> "Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul
had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and
Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad
black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red
tongues."
>>
>> That's they're only mention
in the book, and they seem to be from Far Harad, not the
East.
>>
>>
>>
Khamul/Steve.
So that would make them "Jungle Trolls"?
Or maybe they were so large they were thought to be like
half-trolls, just as the Olog-hai were thought to be massive
Orcs.
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Half
trolls - Liosalfar
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
21:09].
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There are two mentions of the
half-trolls.
The first is the mention of the huge guys
from Far harad with red tongues "like half-trolls" and then
later we hear how the Rohirrim swept into "the half trolls"
(or words to that effect)
One is a simile, the other
isn't.
When Helm is described as being "like a snow
troll" people have interpretted this to mean that snow trolls
were an actual feature of Middle Earth.
I tend to be
sympathetic towards the view that half-trolls and snow-trolls
were an actual thing in Middle Earth. And WETA had a cool
illustration of the half-trolls.
MERP had an
interesting write up which postulated that the half trolls
were to the Variags (and Nurniags - the men of nurn) what the
half-orcs were to the Dunlendings. It's not based on a whole
lot, but its interesting, nonetheless.
Gavin
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
elvanknight
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [2/3/2006
20:51].
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>> >> Why did GW make the
chariots for khand instead of the easterlings?It would have
made more sense since the easterlings are the
wainriders.
>>
>> GW probably wouldn't have
been allowed to make chariots for the Easterlings since that
would be too far removed from the film. They obviously got
permission to put them on horses but chariots might have been
a step too far.
>>
>> You can always think
of the Khand model as book-based Easterlings if you
want.
>>
>>
>> Khamul/Steve.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
elvanknight
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [2/3/2006
20:54].
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>> >> Why did GW make the
chariots for khand instead of the easterlings?It would have
made more sense since the easterlings are the
wainriders.
>>
>> GW probably wouldn't have
been allowed to make chariots for the Easterlings since that
would be too far removed from the film. They obviously got
permission to put them on horses but chariots might have been
a step too far.
>>
>> You can always think
of the Khand model as book-based Easterlings if you
want.
>>
>>
>>
Khamul/Steve.
if you don't like id don't buy it or
convert to your own needs but my opinion is the khand chariots
and army are an excelent idea
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
elvanknight
Replies [0]. This Reply Posted [2/3/2006
20:56].
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>> >> Why did GW make the
chariots for khand instead of the easterlings?It would have
made more sense since the easterlings are the
wainriders.
>>
>> GW probably wouldn't have
been allowed to make chariots for the Easterlings since that
would be too far removed from the film. They obviously got
permission to put them on horses but chariots might have been
a step too far.
>>
>> You can always think
of the Khand model as book-based Easterlings if you
want.
>>
>>
>>
Khamul/Steve.
if you don't like din't buy or convert
them to your own needs
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RE: RE: RE: Open
to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
StephenWhostolemyname
Replies [5]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
11:26].
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>> >> >>
>> >> >> Two tribes are named from Khand
in Lord of the Rings: the Wainriders, and the
Variags
>> >>
>> >> Where did
Tolkien say the Wainriders were from Khand ?
>>
>>
>> >> As far as I know they weren't
they were Easterlings. They were said to have allied with Men
of Khand (Unfinished Tales), but Tolkien wouldn't have needed
to say that if they were from Khand themselves.
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >>
Khamul/Steve.
>> Why did GW make the chariots for
khand instead of the easterlings?It would have made more sense
since the easterlings are the
wainriders.
Easterling was a term for ANYONE from
the east, regardless of tribe or nationality, it was what
anyone from ANY land east of Mordor was called by Gondorians.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags - Grimhelm
mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags
Replies [4]. This
Reply Posted [2/4/2006 11:26].
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>> >> >> >>
Two tribes are named from Khand in Lord of the Rings: the
Wainriders, and the Variags
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As far as I know they weren't
they were Easterlings. They were said to have allied with Men
of Khand (Unfinished Tales), but Tolkien wouldn't have needed
to say that if they were from Khand themselves.
>>
>> >>
>> >> Why did GW make the
chariots for khand instead of the easterlings?It would have
made more sense since the easterlings are the
wainriders.
>>
>> Easterling was a term for
ANYONE from the east, regardless of tribe or nationality, it
was what anyone from ANY land east of Mordor was called by
Gondorians.
So that would make Khand the
"South-Easterlings" :)
I'm wondering though: would Khand be
tied more to Rhovanion or Harad?
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
Aule_the_creator
Replies [3]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
11:26].
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I personally doubt the khandish being
from rhovanion, seeing as the only way to get there would be
through Gondor, hence it would surely be mentioned if a group
of that size passed through gondor on their way to the south.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags -
Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags
Replies [2]. This
Reply Posted [2/4/2006 11:26].
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>> I personally doubt the
khandish being from rhovanion, seeing as the only way to get
there would be through Gondor, hence it would surely be
mentioned if a group of that size passed through gondor on
their way to the south.
Or they could pass through
Mordor, behind the Mountains of Shadow? No, my point is that
Khand is being released as a "Shadow in the East", whereas the
WD rules for Khand were released with Harad. They are in the
south and the east, so my question is, were they more closely
allied to Harad or Rhovanion? (through Sauron, obviously).
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL Variags
- Aule_the_creator
Replies [1]. This Reply Posted [2/4/2006
11:26].
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I don't see your point, I wouldn't
think they were allied with Rhovanion at all. Harad is a good
possibility.
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RE: RE: RE: RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags - Grimhelm mailto:grimhelm@gmail.com?subject=RE:
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Open to Interpretation - the REAL
Variags
Replies [0]. This
Reply Posted [2/4/2006 11:26].
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>> I don't see your point, I
wouldn't think they were allied with Rhovanion at all. Harad
is a good possibility.
That is my point. They are from
the south but are released as a Shadow in the East, which
could give the wrong impression that they are allied with the
Easterlings.
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