Jack Downing Part 6
[Here is a transcription of a dialogue between Major Jack Downing and Norio Hayakawa, dated 08/10/97]
NORIO: Hello Maj, how are you?
DOWNING:Fine thank you.
NORIO: Good . . .I am an acquaintance of this person named Dames. I am still a doubter as to the veracity of Stargate program. . .if you know what I mean. . .I am sure you are familiar with Stargate?
DOWNING: Quite. As for Dames, well he and I have our differences, but our mutual involvement in RV work confirms to me that he is a brilliant and talented individual, but between you and me, this current RV craze is PSYOPS targeted at adversarial nations, whilst sweeping in a lot of gullible Americans and Brits.
NORIO: Absolutely Maj. I concur with you. . .I was once interested in remote viewing, etc. . .especially since I met Col John Alexander (formerly with Los Alamos) three times in the past 2 years.
DOWNING: Oh Yeah. Col John. He's got his own thing going, not quite teaching TRV with Dames. The Col. Seems to have more restraint. . .I have often wondered why Alexander lets himself be associated with Dames. Dames and I have major differences over the Roswell story, but I can understand if he's just letting himself be the fall guy in some big time PSYOPS thing.
NORIO: Maj, Dames is the one who keeps claiming that he trained Col. Alexander. . .but when I talked to the Col, he gave me a different impression.
DOWNING: Dames (aka James when stationed in Europe as a spy) has made some pretty preposterous claims in the past few years, when he seemed to pop up out of nowhere with all kinds of strange tales.
NORIO: Yes, I know. . .like his wild claims made 4 years ago in regard to Northern New Mexico. . .etc. But nevertheless, I am impressed with his fluency in Chinese.
DOWNING: Like I said, he's pretty smart. I think he'd have been more useful in the CIA. On the other hand, he may be already with them.
NORIO: Yes, possibly. . .he will make a good asset. . .; by the way Maj, you worked with Ingo Swann before?
DOWNING: Never.
NORIO: I see, I was just curious. . .you know Col Alexander's wife? . . .I am still trying to figure the true motives of Bob Bigelow backing up Col. Alexander with his Institute for Discovery Sciences.
DOWNING: In in a whole different operation. I've met the military people, but Swann also showed up out of nowhere. As for the Col's wife, I did not even know he was married. I met with him many years ago on a professional basis, and never was a wife mentioned in that context. If she is a major player in RV I wouldn't have known it. In truth, I haven't been reading any of these books or seen any of the TV stuff that's come out lately.
[*part of transcript missing*]
NORIO: (. . .) . . .China Lake Naval Weapons Center years ago in RM; was there ever such a PSYOPS program at China Lake Naval Weapons Center in Ridgecrest, California?
DOWNING: There were all kinds of "training" being done to military dependents in all branches of the service. It would not surprise me.
NORIO: . . .Well she claimed that she was "trained" for several months on China Lake facility to pinpoint several targets on computer screen. . .such as submarines, etc.
DOWNING: Interesting. That sort of thing was being done to kids on Army and Air Force bases in Germany, naval bases in England, and some bases in Southeastern US to my knowledge. I didn't hear about China Lake. It must be all over the place. I was aware of this stuff in the early 70s. I'm surprised it's still going on. When I knew about it, it was being treated as "intelligence testing" for particularly bright kids.
NORIO: Sorry for asking so many questions. . .were you in the Army, Navy, Air Force?
DOWNING: I was in the Army, then moved into the NSA. . . .Col. Alexander (and Ed Dames) may remember me by the last name Donleavy, which I used during the Vietnam war in some operations.
NORIO: I see. . .Do you subscribe to Jane's? or DARPA newsletters?
DOWNING: I used to subscribe to Jane's. It got boring and repetitive. Now I tune in to C4I-Pro sometimes, but otherwise I'm retired.
NORIO: I see. . .(. . .) I was wondering if the ELINT is becoming a vital part of NSA more than ever. . .Rather than SIGINT?
DOWNING: I'm not sure I understand your question. What specifically do you mean by "more than ever"?
NORIO: I guess my question was not posed right. I was wondering if you had read an article by NEXUS magazine on NSA's part in electronic surveillance?
DOWNING: Okay. . .well, the intelligence community strives to keep abreast of all developments in communication, including the world wide web. Newsgroups, listservers, and web pages are monitored for potential subversive or terrorist activity. Electronic surveillance is now a vital part of NSA's mission. Now that the Cold War is over, and future threats are diffused globally, all channels of communication must be dutifully monitored and analyzed. Does that answer your question? And no, I don't reead NEXUS magazine. It is not a good source of accurate info. Believe it or not. The intelligence community does enjoy reading the COVERT ACTION QUARTERLY. We are so compartmentalized that investigative journalists tell us things we should already know.
NORIO: It sure does answer the question. And very precise and complete! I agree that it is very important for NSA especially to counter global terrorism. . .
DOWNING: It is regrettable that the US has had to assume the role of police force for world peace. The New World Order is actually conspiracy gibberish. The US is openly taking the protective role here, but it is not necessarily going to insure permanent order. The UN thing is simply our way of making sure that other nations share the tab for enforcing world peace. The UN does not own this nation It's the other way around.
NORIO: I highly respect the work of Ted Gunderson (whom I also talked a couple of times before), former Fbi Chief Agent in L.A. He was a specialist in terrorism and religious cults. . .he now runs a private agency and does some contract work for the government in hunting down terrorists, etc.
DOWNING: Wow. . .you spoke to Gunderson. Did you publish the interview or was it for personal research?
NORIO: Ted Gunderson knows me. . .from several years ago. . .he is a great guy. I didn't publish anything Maj. Sometime I just like to talk one to one. . .I am mainly interested in over-all pictures. . .the trends, etc.
DOWNING: I understand completely. My impression of you is that you have a voracious, inquisitive mind. You like to flesh out the big picture by means of getting all possible perspectives.
NORIO: The reason why Ted Gunderson had heard of me before was because back in 1992, we held some seminars in California on Wackenhut Corporation and its connection to Cabazon Indian tribes, etc, and we invited Ted Gunderson to speak in our seminar. . .and he showed up. . .along with a guy by the name of Pender or something like that who they said was in the NSA. At the time, I was giving a presentation on Groom Lake Complexes, in the seminar.
DOWNING: What, in your finding, is the connection between Wackenhut and the Cabazon Indians, or perhaps more clearly, what was the finding of the seminar?
NORIO: Well, at the time there was a scandal involving Wackenhut and the Cabazon indian tribes because Wackenhut was paying Cabazons a large sum of money and somehow they were using the reservation there in testing of modifications of the PROMIS software. . .a computer software program for prosecutors. . .
DOWNING: Interesting. .
NORIO: The reason I was into Wackenhut stuff was because I knew the wife of this guy named Michael Riconosciuto, who was an expert on ballistics and Fuel Air Explosion, and who apparently gave a lot of interesting secret information to a journalist by the name of Danny Casolaro. . .(who was planning to write a book called THE OCTOPUS. . .a non-fiction book). . .and Michael Riconosciuto worked for Wackenhut. . .and later was imprisoned on trumped-up charges.
DOWNING: (. . .). . .at no time during my time with Intelligence did I have any connection with or involvement in Indian Affairs. . .I am approximately one quarter Seminole, and there was probably some concern about my loyalty. That is perhaps why Indian reservation controversies were never brought to my attention.
NORIO: I see. . .well, Major, during the early eighties, it seemed that Wackenhut was doing a lot of contract work, such as bio-chemical stuff and was using several Indian reservation areas because of different jurisdictions, etc. . .and for convenience. . .and the reservations received compensation for these programs!!
DOWNING: I'm sure they did. Some reservation "leaders" are little better than mobsters.
NORIO: I agree. . .by the way, are you in East Coast or West Coast or Midwest or where?
DOWNING: I am in NYC.
NORIO: I see. . .are you a patriot?
DOWNING: heh heh. . .I have no choice. I swore my life over to Uncle Sam many years ago. Nowadays my sentiments are libertarian. I have a long family tradition of pro-constitutional values, and am supportive of some (but not all) of the militia agendas.
NORIO: That's a good answer, Maj. I am ready to die for this country and would be a great honor to do so. I am also pro-Constitutional and also supportive of some (but not all) of the issued raised by the so-called militia agendas.
DOWNING: I suspect you would die for this country, but not necessarily for this government? I ask this because I am wondering why you are so dead-set on exposing Area 51.
NORIO: You are absolutely right, Maj!!!(LOL) The government should be us, but unfortunately it seems that it is being influenced by so many lobbyists whose agendas may not necessarily be for this country.
DOWNING: It's a sad consequence of the rags-to-riches American Dream. If you can scare up enough baksheesh, you can pull any strings you want. This country would be in the palm of your hand. Or mine. One person = one vote? It is like when this nation started. One votes with ones pocketbook. Bigger pocketbooks = bigger votes.
NORIO: By the way, I am not really interested in exposing anything. . .to tell you the truth. . .I have made a big mistake in presenting that kind of an image to the public!!! There is nothing to expose about Area 51 . . . because there doesn't seem to be anything highly unusual about that place!!
DOWNING: You are right. There is nothing there. The Black Projects have moved out to the remote Pacific. . .
NORIO: What I am mostly interested in is the study of how people react to certain philosophies and even conspiracy outlooks. . .In other words, I am interested in the study of how "conspiracy theories" affect people's psychology, not that I believe in any conspiracies per se. . .In fact, I am certain that this is one way of measuring the trends of the worldview of the public. . .and by raising conspiratorial questions, you can study part of human nature more efficiently. . . [*remainder of interview consist of making farewells*]
[Here's a dialogue between Downing and Hayakawa dated May 4, 1998.]
DOWNING: What ever happened to that civil intelligence outfit you were in?
NORIO: Sort of dispersed. . .but still working on few things. . .I have a new web site. . .especially interesting is an item regarding CBWs with UAV delivery system that I got. . .I think you will find it interesting, Major. . .how about you?
DOWNING: I am keeping a low profile. . .taking it easy. Some of my associates are very active right now, trying to clandestinely avert "X-day". I can't really discuss that though. How's that rally plan coming along?
NORIO: The rally plan is coming along excellent!! A friend of mine will also be there. . .he used to be the head of L.A. Bureau of the F.B.I. . . .he is very much into exposing black ops too!!
DOWNING: How many do you expect to turn out?
NORIO: Well. . .it's anyone's guess. . .anywhere between 50 to 350, nobody knows for sure. . .but it will be broadcast on a radio station in Las Vegas. . . I will send you info on that, Major! DOWNING: Sure, thanks.
NORIO: I wish you could come and give a speech!!
DOWNING: I'd prefer not to. I'm already in danger of being labelled a dangerous subversive. Last thing I need is to speak before a crowd. I shun cameras, etc. Maybe someday. But I'm losing motivation about the whole cause.
NORIO: I don't blame you, Major. . .your position is very important!
DOWNING: I do, however, applaud the efforts you are making. Particularly with respect to seeking recognition for the victims of Black Ops R&D work at Groom Lake.
NORIO: Ted Gunderson, former FBI chief in L.A. area (whom I have gotten to know through correspondences), is getting a lot of flak for his trying to expose a lot of the cover-ups!
DOWNING: That flak is the lot of anybody in this line of work. I assume you are probably getting some flak as well. . .?
NORIO: Well, surprisingly, Major, I haven't gotten any flak so far (of course. . .the level of my knowledge is quite low, so they won't take me too serious)
DOWNING: You do seem to be working very hard to raise general awareness about these issues, though, and about such things as the Casolaro case, the Ryder truck, and other matters.
NORIO: Yes. . .it is because I truly believe in the original American way. . .the America that used to be. . .instead of the present-day America where elements of globalism have set in!!!
DOWNING: Well. . .that's a tough one to address though. . .America certainly can't revert to isolationism. . .just not feasible. . .technocolonialism is already too far advanced. The global culture/economy is too tied up now with the fate of America.
NORIO: You are right in that there is no turning back. . .globalism is inevitable. . .there are good points in globalism but also some aspects of globalism could be manipulated by those that might take advantage of such systems. .
DOWNING: Oh, absolutely. That goes for any kind of system.
NORIO: By the way, Major. . .I know that you had been away for a long time. . .everybody was wondering where you had been for so long. There were many speculations going around the internet as to what happened to you. . .I am so glad that you are still around!
DOWNING: I was on "vacation". . .and pretty sick. . .sure I was going to die of cancer of the prostate. Some old buddies who had left the Black Ops Brethren came and got me and saw to it that I was cured completely of this condition. But I am loath to share details about what went on during and after. I am back online now, but not back in NYC. My old apartment was cleared out by [individuals identifying themselves as members of] the Air Force.
NORIO: I see. . .considering your position, I don't blame you for your absence. . .I hope you are recovering from it all?
DOWNING: I was a soldier. I simply seek to survive in relative comfort. I have fully recovered from the cancer, but I sure don't want to get into trouble again.
NORIO: a man named Glenn Campbell had a temporary unofficial website about you. . .he operates a large website called UFOMIND. Have you seen that unofficial site of yours, Major?
DOWNING: I know of the website. . .I think it's still there.
NORIO: Yes, I believe so. . .but I am happy that you came back. . .and so is everybody.
DOWNING: Who else do you know is happy?
NORIO: Probably lots of people who read UFOMIND site. And probably lots of people who read some newsgroups too!
DOWNING: Believe it or not, I've kinda stayed out of the newsgroups. I just haven't had much to say. I've been more "mum" lately.
NORIO: . . .you are quite well known!
DOWNING: Me? Well known? Nah, your page gets more hits than mine, surely?
NORIO: Well, among quite a number of researchers on Black Ops. . .you are definitely known about!!
DOWNING: Interesting. I didn't know about that. I guess they don't write to me, so I wouldn't know. I do know that an episode of "X Files" last Fall borrowed liberally from my articles.
NORIO: . . .it was just such a pleasure talking to you again like this. . .God Bless you, sir.
DOWNING: Okay, take care. God Bless you, too.
Part 7
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