96Feb1

February 1-7, 1996



















Talisman emails received 2/1/96
---------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 02:11:18 +0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: S.N.Lambden@newcastle.ac.uk (Stephen Lambden)
Subject: TABLETS OF BAHA'U'LLAH 2A:01


Beloved Tarjumites,

        What follows is my slightly revised prov. trans. of the *Lawh-i
kull al-ta`am* ("Tablet of All Food"; c. 1854 CE) of Baha'u'llah. It first
appeared with commentary in BSB 3:1 (June 1984), pp.4-67. Various texts
were consulted though I mostly followed the superior ms in INBA 36:268-277.
The texts printed in Ishraq Khavari's *Ma'ida-yi Asmani* (4:265-276) and
*Rahiq-i makhtum* (2:416-426) contain quite a few textual errors. No
critical edition exists. The Provisional translation which follows remains
a ROUGH DRAFT. Notification of errors of translation and inadequacies of
style would be greatly appreciated.
Love and salutations,

Steve

*INTRODUCTORY NOTE*





THE LAWH-I KULL AL-TA`AM: PROVISIONAL TRANSLATION.
_________________________________________________

        He is Supremely Powerful in accomplishing that which He willeth
through a command on His part.  And He is God,  Powerful over all things.

                                   [I]

[1]  Praise be to God Who hath caused Oceans of Light to surge in the
Divine Fiery Water; excited the Letters of the Dispensation (huruf
al-zuhur) in the Incomparable, Beclouded Point and made the Hidden Mount to
revolve about the Firmament of the Theophany, the Concealed Self, the Focal
Centre of Eternality. [2] He caused the Lordly Point to circle round the
Most-Splendid, All-Enduring Ornament to the end, that all might testify
that He is the True One; no God is there save Him. [3] He, verily, is the
Incomparable, the One, the Eternal, Who neither begetteth nor is begotten.
He can never be likened to any single thing. And He, God, is the Majestic,
the All-Compelling.

        [4] Praise be to God Who hath caused the Fiery Depths to overflow
from the Purified, Sanctified Temple and made the Beauteous Deep to
sprinkle forth refined, glorious Dewdrops. [5] He hath attracted the
Countenances characterised by the letter "H" (al-ha')  through the unique,
eternal melodies and enabled the Light-filled Dove to sing forth with
warblings timeless and everlasting. [6] This, to the end, that all might
become aware that He is the True One; there is none other God besides Him,
the Beneficent, the Almighty Who cannot be described by aught save His
Essence or characterised by aught save His Eminence. He, verily, is the
All-Powerful, the Wrathful.

        [7] Praise be to God Who hath caused the Light to circle round the
twin Mounts of His Light and made the Light to revolve around the twin
Spheres of His Light. [8] He hath caused the Light to beam forth in the
Loci of His Light and made the Light to be retained in the Repositories of
His Light. [9] He hath also caused the Light to scintillate through the
impulses of His Light and made the Light to shine resplendent in the
Countenances of His Light.[10] Praise God! Praised be God! Worthy of praise
is He Who establisheth His Own worth, for besides Him there is none other.


                                   [II]


        [1] So praised be Thou, O My God, O My God! Bereft of splendour am
I, until invoke Thee through Thy sanctified verses. No glory have I until I
confide in Thee through Thine intimate Letters. [2] Without radiance am I
until I experience Thee through the secrets of Thy Might. [3] And no lustre
have I until I observe Thee in the hidden retreats of Thy Light.

        [4] So praised be Thou, O My God, O My God! We failed to invoke
Thee at the moment which Thou madest Me one saddened before the surging of
the Deep Sea of Thy blissfulness and made Me one grieved in the land nigh
unto the billowing of the Fathomless Deep of Thy Joyousness. [5] Likewise
at the moment which, in Thy House, Thou madest Me one afflicted before the
high courses of the Oceans of Thy Radiance.

        [6]  So praised be Thou, O My God, O My God! We failed to
adequately bear witness unto Thee in that Thou hast testified before all
things unto Thine Own Self, through Thine Own Self, for Thou, verily, art
God, no God is there except Thee. [7] Eternally Thou hast rested upon the
Throne of Glory and hath
everlastingly been concealed by the essence of Bounty and Justice. [8]
Eternally and everlastingly Thou wast hidden in the Image Thou hadst
aforetime in the magnificence of Glory and Beauty. [9] Not a single person
is capable of fathoming the fullness of Thine Interiority and no soul is
able to describe the substance of Thine Identity. [10] Whenever the holy
ones attempt to become acquainted with Thee, they subscribe to falsity in
the holy court of the King of Thy Munificence. [11] And, as often as those
who confess Thy Unity attempt to characterise Thee, they join partners with
Thee at the intimate threshold
of the Sovereign of Thy Might.

        [12]  So praised be Thou, O My God, O My God! Thou art the One who
created Me free of affliction in Thy dominions and provided for Me in such
wise that not an atom of misfortune befell me in Thy regions. [13] Such was
the case, until Thou enabled Me to recognise Thy Remembrance and inspired
Me as One acknowledging the truth for Thy sake; One obedient to His command
as befits Thy Truth. [14] Thou art the One Who deposited in Mine inmost
essence, a Lamp from Thy Being, by means of which Thy Self might become
known. [15] It beamed forth in Thy Kingdom and I found a haven in the court
of Thy Might until oceans of sadness surged over Me -- a mere drop of which
no soul could bear to drink.  [16]I wept to such an extent that the spirit
well-nigh departed from My body. [17] I was so filled with anxiety that the
Spiritual Beings were sorely troubled. I was overcome with sorrow so as to
grievously distress the Luminous Ones. [18] And praise be to Thee, O My
Beloved, on account of all that Thou madest to appear through Thy Power,
ordained through Thy Will, decreed through Thy Judgement, and determined
through Thy power of Accomplishment, for all these things are a proof of
Thy Cause and a path unto the Sovereign of Thy Graciousness.

        [19] So praise be to Thee, O My God, O My God! How can I call upon
Thee through the wonders of Thy Remembrance when the Path to the gnosis of
the boundary of Thine Essence is cut off? [20] And how can I not call upon
Thee, in that Thou didst not create Me except for the remembrance of Thy
benefits and the commemoration of Thy favours. So praise be unto Thee! [21]
I, verily, stand before Thee unto Whom all bow down in adoration.

        [22]  So praise be to Thee, O My God, O My God! We failed to
entreat Thee on those darkest of nights on which the Dove of the Command
sang out on Mount Sinai, from the right side of the Crimson Tree, with the
melodies of Thine Eternity; [23] or, during those lengthy periods of gloom,
when the Light-filled Bird warbled beyond the veils of the realm of
concealed Divinity with the warblings of Thy Perpetuity. [24] This inasmuch
as Thou raised Me up unto the Heaven of the Unseen through the supremacy of
the Sovereign of Thine Endless Permanency; [25] made Me to ascend unto the
Horizon of Evident Attestation through the power of the King of Thy
Divinity; [26] caused Me to be elevated unto the hidden retreats of Thy
Oneness and ennobled Me through the meeting with Thy Countenance such that
I came to abide in Thy sanctuary and found a haven in Thine Expanse. [27] I
reclined upon cushions of Light through Thy bounty and rose up above the
Heaven of Manifestation through Thy Munificence. [28] Thereby did My heart
find peace, My soul comfort, My being delight and My essence equanimity,
for thereby was I numbered among those who are assured through the meeting
with their Lord.

                                  [III]

        [1]  O thou glorious enquirer who art set aglow through the Fire of
the Friend! [2] Be thou assured that from the very first day that God aided
Me through faith in Him and confirmation in His Cause, it was not my desire
to respond to the enquiries of any among the servants. [3] But since I
found in thy heart a fire from the Proof of God and a brand from the Light
of the Manifestation of His Self, the ocean of My affection hath surged and
it is My wish to reply to thee through the power and might of God. [4] My
munificence overfloweth with the sprinklings of servitude in the Land of
the Theophany, in order that the breezes of Light might attract thee unto
the summit of exhilaration, and cause thee to attain that station which God
hath decreed for thee in these days in which the winds of sorrow have
encompassed Me on all sides. [5] This on account of that which the hands of
the people have committed
for they have calumniated me without proof or written testimony.[6] O Lord!
Cast patience upon Me and make Me to be victorious over the seditious
people.


        [7] Then know that for this paradisiacal verse [Q.3:87], this
choice fruit, divine song and heavenly pearl, are subtle meanings endless
in their infinitude. [8] I, by the grace and bounty of God, shall sprinkle
upon thee something of the superabundance of its meanings that may serve as
a memorial for the believers, a guiding light for the estranged, and a
stronghold for the agitated. [9] Then bear thou witness that for "food" are
diverse levels of meaning; it must suffice thee, however, that We expound
four of them.

        [10] It signifieth the realm of the Throne of He-ness (Hahut), the
Paradise of the Divine Oneness. [11] None is capable of expounding even a
letter of that verse relative to that Paradise. [12] This inasmuch as that
realm is that of the Mystery of Endless Duration, the Unique Sonship, the
Incomparable Israelicity and the Resplendent Selfhood. [13] Its exoteric
aspect is the essence of its esoteric aspect and its esoteric aspect the
essence of its exoteric aspect. [14] It is inappropriate that anyone should
attempt to elucidate a single letter of it. [15] God, however, will
disclose its mysteries when He willeth unto whomsoever He willeth.[16] And
I, verily, in view of My injury and My misery am not informed of even a
letter thereof. [17] This inasmuch  as the matter cannot be related except
on the part of God, its Fashioner and its Originator.

        [18] So praise be unto God, its Creator and its Lifegiver above
that which those who confess the Unity of God assert.[19]  By He in Whose
hand is My Soul! If oceans of Light should surge forth in that realm all
who are in the heavens and on earth would assuredly be drowned; save, that
is, a number of the
Letters of this Dispensation (`Theophany'). [20] In this respect God
beareth sufficient witness as regards both Me and thee.

        [21] It signifieth the realm of the Paradise of Endless Duration,
the Throne of the Divine Realm (Lahut), the Snow-White Light. [22] It is
the realm of "He is He Himself" and there is none other save Him. [23] This
Paradise is allotted unto those servants who are established upon the Seat
of Glory, who quaff liquid camphor nigh unto the All-Beauteous One, and who
recite the verses of Light in the Heaven of Manifest Justice. [24] Thereby
are they enraptured and from that "food" derive comfort.

        [25]  It signifieth the Paradise of the Divine Unicity, the Golden
[Yellow] Land, the Depths of realm of the Divine Omnipotence (Jabarut).
[26] It is the realm of "Thou art He [God] and He [God] is Thou" allotted
unto those servants who do not cried out except with the permission of God;
who act according to His command and ever restrain themselves in accordance
with His wisdom [27] -- just as God hath described them [in the Qur'an] for
they are the honoured servants of whom it is written: "They speak not till
He hath spoken; and they do His bidding" (21:27).

        [28] It signifieth the Paradise of Justice, the Verdent [Green]
Land, the Fathomless Deep of Kingdom of God (Malakut)  allotted to those
servants whom  "neither traffic nor merchandise beguile from the
remembrance of God" (Qur'an 24:27) since they are the companions of the
Light. 29] They enter therein
with the permission of God and find rest upon the carpet of the Almighty.

        [30] It signifieth the realm of the Paradise of the Divine Bounty,
the Crimson Land, the Golden Secret, the Snow-White Mystery and the Point
of the human realm (Nasut). [31] In it are the proofs of the Remembrance
greatest, if you are of those who are informed.

                                    IV

        [1] Ah! Alas! Then Ah! Alas! If the Primal Point [the Bab] were
alive in these days and witnessed My grief he would assuredly, at all
times, comfort Me, treat Me tenderly, and fill Me with ardent joy. At every
moment would he strengthen Me. [2] So Ah! Alas! Would that I had died after
him, before these days, or were one quite forgotten, consigned to oblivion.

        [3] Say: O Thou Concourse! Comfort me! Do not calumniate Me or
hasten My affair for I am a servant who hath believed in God and in His
signs [or verses], and there doth not remain of My days except a few.[4]
God, My Lord, is sufficient protector against you since he sufficeth Me and
sufficeth he whom
he desired aforetime. [5] Sufficient is the careful account of His own
Self. [6] Lord! Pour out patience upon Me and make Me victorious over the
disbelieving peoples who do not cry out except in accordance with their own
delusions or move except as their idle fancies prompt them. [7] Say: It is
not for you to ask
why it is this way for you neither comprehend nor understand.

                                   [V]


        [1] O Thou Faithful One! When the breezes of love spilled over from
the right-side of the Sinaitic Tree you were turned to the right and to the
left; [2] in that place, in the Cave of Light, you were protected with the
permission of God, the Exalted, for He is God, Powerful over all things.[3]
And you acknowledged and understood all that We expounded for you. Then
bear witness that We desire to expound further.

        [4] Then know that the significance of "food" is the essence of
knowledge; that is, all branches of learning. [5] "Israel" signifieth the
Primal Point and the "children of Israel" He whom God, on His part, made a
Proof unto the people in these days. [6] "Except what Israel made unlawful
for itself [or himself]" ; that is, that which the Primal Point made
unlawful for his elevated ones and his servants.

        [7] Then bear witness that all that God decreed in the Book through
His command and His power of interdiction is the truth about which there is
no doubt. [8] It is incumbent upon all to act in conformity therewith and
to assent thereto. [9] Let not the actions of those who have been spreading
wickedness in
the land veil you. They suppose that they are rightly guided.[10] Nay! By
the Lord of the Realm of the Divine Cloud ! They are liars and
calumniators. [11] The nature of that party is such that they should never
be allowed to eat even barley in these days. [12] How then, can they
possibly be allowed to eat what God hath forbidden in the Book? So praised
be He, praised be He above that which the associators assert.

                                   [VI]

        [1]  O Thou Friend! Since you were irradiated through the orient
light of the radiance of the splendours of the Morn of Eternity (subh
al-azal) --  the lights of which [or, of whom] have filled the horizons [2]
-- and been captivated by the winning ways of the Light of Endless Duration
-- the traces of which [or, of whom] have appeared upon the Temples of the
Orient Light -- [3] then know that the intention of "food" in these days in
which the Sun shineth in the centre of Heaven and the Lamp of Eternality
hath shed splendour upon the Luminary of the Realm of Divine Cloud, is none
other than the Bearer of the Cause. [4] "Israel" in this connection,
signifieth the Primal Will by means of which God created all who are in the
heavens and on the earth and what is between them. [5] The "children of
Israel" are those servants who were captivated by the Light of that Primal
Will in the "year sixty" (= 1260 AH = 1844 CE) and thereafter until the
"Day" on which He shall assemble the people before the Lord of the Worlds.
[7] God desireth not that anyone be oppressed but the people wrong their
own selves. [8] So know that the Light of God hath ever been established
upon the Throne of Favour and will ever remain the like of what
it was; though the people neither comprehend nor bear witness.

        [9] Since We have lifted you up to the summit of the Mount of
Light, elevated you to the peak of the Mount of Servitude in the Land of
Exhilaration, [10] enabled you to drink deep of the Water of the Divine
Oneness from the Camphor Fount at the hand of the All-Beauteous Joseph,
[11] and given you rest in the Cradle of Tranquillity about which the
Gladsome Ant sang forth -- therein your spirit enlivened, your soul
delighted and your essence gladdened -- [12] then thank God Who created you
aforetime by a command on His part and made you to be numbered among those
servants who are rightly guided through the verses of God.


                                   [VII]

        [1] Now, at this moment, I cease not to complain of my sorrow and
anguish unto God for He alone acknowledgeth My anxiety, is aware of My
plight and heareth My lamentation. [2] By He Who hath made the Bird[s] of
Light to soar in the Land of the Theophany! [3] None is to be found as
dejected as I, for now
do I dwell at the point of dust in obscure ignonimy. [4] There is no
possessor of Spirit in the Dominion of God except he weepeth over Me to the
degree that the heavens are well-nigh cleft asunder, the earth split open
and the mountains levelled. [5] This inasmuch as the Eye of Time hath not
seen anyone as
oppressed as I. [6] And I, verily, have been patient and forbearing; have
sat between the hands of God, trusted in Him and committed the affair unto
Him, perchance He might comfort Me and protect Me from all that the people
have committed.

        [7] Then know, O Kamal! If I should expound that verse [Qur'an 3:
87] from this day until the days find their consummation in *al-mustaghath*
("the One Invoked for Help"; abjad 2001] -- which is the Day when the
people will rise up before the Countenance of the Living One, the Wondrous,
the extent to which God would favour me through His grace and bounty [with
numerous explanations] could not be estimated. [8] This inasmuch as the
Mystery of the Divine Oneness hath been set in motion, the Ocean of Endless
Duration hath surged and the
Countenance of Light in the Heavens of the Realm of Unknowing, hath beamed
forth from the right side of the Tree of the Command.[9]  This, in these
days, in which the Sun of Manifestation hath risen in unique manner though
the people are neither cognisant of its magnitude nor mindful of its
subtlety.

        [10]  So Ah! Alas! If they [the people] could but perceive, the
Proof would never be hidden from them nor the Favour be beyond their grasp.
[11] Say: It is not for you to ask why it is so lest you join partners with
God Who created you and aided you through a Light from before Him; if, that
is, you are of those who truly believe.

        [13] Give ear, O Kamal! to the voice of this lowly, this forsaken
ant, that hath hid itself in its hole, and Whose desire is to depart from
your midst, and vanish from your sight, by reason of that which the hands
of men have wrought. [14] God, verily, hath been witness between Me and His
servants. God it is Who beareth witness unto Me in all respects.

        [15]  So Ah! Alas! If the Last Point, the Countenance of My Love,
Quddus were alive he would assuredly weep over my plight and would lament
that which hath befallen me. [16] And I, for My part, would at this moment
beseech his eminence and supplicate his holiness that he would enable Me to
ascend unto the court of His might and recline on the cushion of his
sanctity as I was wont to do in those days [now past] when I was free of
the aforementioned misfortunes. [17] O Lord! Cast patience upon Me and make
Me to be victorious over the transgressors.

                                  [VIII]

        [1]  O Thou Faithful One! If you be of those who dwell in the
Snow-White Forest, the Isle of the Criterion (al-Furqan),  then know that
"food" signifieth the [personified] Custodianship (? al-wilaya)   which God
decreed for His people. [2] The intention of "Israel" in this connection is
the Point of the Criterion (al-Furqan = the Qur'an) and of the "children of
Israel" His trustees [= the Imams] who succeeded Him [Muhammad] and by
means of Whom God recompenseth His righteous servants.

        [3]  And if you be of those who dwell in the Crimson Isle, the
Orchard of the Exposition (al-Bayan), then know that We abandon the "food"
[of the Islamic wilaya?]   and desire the Primal Point [the Bab], the Pure
Wine of the Divine Oneness in an elevated station. [4] The intention of
"Israel" in this connection is the Last Countenance [= Quddus ?], the
Mystery of Endless Duration in an elevated station [5] and the Countenance
of Light, the Disengaged Theophany, the Temple of the Divine Oneness [=
Mirza Yahya?) in an elevated station whom the aggressors caused to be
imprisoned in the land and concealed in the cities. [6] So praised be God
above that which the hands of the People commit. And God is not unaware of
the actions of the people.

                                   [IX]

        [1]  Since, at this moment, the fire of love surgeth in the heart
of al-Baha [Baha'u'llah], the Dove of Servitude singeth in the Heaven of
the Divine Cloud  and the Bird (Hoopoe) of Light warbleth in the midst of
the firmaments, [2]the Sinaitic Tree burneth of itself through the Fire of
its own self above the Ark of the Testimony beyond Mount Qaf, [in] the Land
of Realization,[3] and the Ant of Servitude hideth in the Vale of the
Divine Oneness in this "Night" with mystic fidelity, wherefore do I desire
to further expound that verse [Qur'an 3:87].  [4] This inasmuch as God
hath, at this moment, informed me about it through His grace and bounty.
And He, verily, is the Mighty, the Generous.

        [5]  Then bear witness that "food" signifieth the Ocean of the
Unseen which is hidden in the Scrolls of Light and treasured up in the
Inscribed Tablets. [6] "Israel" signifieth the Manifestation of the Command
in these days and the "children of Israel" the people of the Bayan. [7] And
that "food" was allowed for them [the Babis]; that is, for all who desire
to ascend unto the Heaven of Bounty and to drink of the Water of
Manifestation [or Pure Water] from that Cup, the Goblet of Servitude, which
resembleth naught but a shadow in the land. [8] I, however, ask God's
forgiveness on account of that limitation. So
praised be God, One worthy of praise and mighty beyond the attempts of the
negligent to describe Him.

                                * * * * * * * * *

PART TWO TO FOLLOW

Stephen N. Lambden
44 Queens Road, Jesmond,
Newcastle upon Tyne, NE2 2PQ
England. U.K.

Voice/Fax. +44 [0] 191. 2818597
Email S.N.Lambden@ncl.ac.uk





=END=


From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 21:51:28 -0500
To: Alethinos@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Natural law and its distortions: A short answer to Mr. Taylor

In a message dated 96-01-29 01:40:39 EST, Alethinos@aol.com writes:

>
>
>Dear Mr. Taylor:
>
Jim,please call me Dave!

>Of course you're going to fume because here I am going to agree with you.
You
>hated it when I did it last time and you're bound to have the same reaction
>this time.

I don't fume, Jim. I don't have the talent for it that you do. :-)  Also, I
don't mind being agreed with. In fact lately I have been remiss a few times
in neglecting to comment when I agree with you.  Your moving account of your
experiences in the "youth movement" in the Northwest really touched me. I
agree that we have lost many opportunities because we haven't had the courage
or persistence to come to an understanding of our purpose and pursue it.
There has been too much of a tendency  for people in authority to simply say
"no" without elaboration, to put a damper on things without working with
people to do the analysis that would produce projects everyone could say
"yes" to and stick with.  We have tended to think that if we just quote the
writings at each other without discussing their meaning, and "purify"
ourselves and "arise," with "confidence," that "confirmations" will follow
miraculously and we will find ourselves in another dimension.  I agree with
you it ain't gonna happen like that. We are here to develop our capacities,
and therefore to do what we need to do we have to be willing to think about
what we are doing, how we will reach people, how we will transform ourselves.


   On the other hand, you present your analysis as self-evident and complete,
and i don't find myself in agreement  with it. I would be happy to wrestle
with you with the aim of coming to a position we could really agree on. I
think this is possible!  What was bothersome last time was that in claiming
to agree with me you distorted my statements beyond recognition. You've
behaved better this time, though I do wish you would cut the supercilious
tone and refrain from  talking past me to "most Baha'is." I do not think like
"most Baha'is" any more than you do.

>A very great deal of the suffering of the world comes from the rejection of
>the leaders of governments as well as the religious leaders of Baha'u'llah's
>message. True. No doubt. Absolutely.
>
>And the Guardian did not condemn the material advances of the West. He
>condemned the philosophy of materialism just as his Grandfather did.

And just as his Grandfather did, he considered the rapid growth of
materialistic attitudes and beliefs in the present epoch as a result of the
collapse of traditional centers of authority grounded in traditional
religious concepts--the monarchies,papacy, churches, et cetera.  He was not
insensitive to the various forces acting to destroy these institutions, which
he did not fail to castigate as riddled by internal corruption and ready to
fall; but he plainly and explicitly attributed the growth of materialistic
philosophies as a result of the loss of the spiritual authority and
restraining influence of these institutions which had provided continuity and
discouraged "experimentation" for centuries. Humanity faces a dilemma which
only a mature Baha'i community can relieve--so we had best bring such a
community into existence!  In the circumstance described by the Gaurdian, it
is quite plain that the best efforts by the most sincere people of whatever
political or religious stripe or philosophy are as likely to deepen the
crisis as bring some relief. All deserve our measured sympathy and some our
measured cooperation, but not our allegience. We must belong neither to the
Left or the Right.   Given my background and associations it is easier for me
to be sympathetic to liberal goals and causes, but I recognize that liberals
face the same tragic consequences that bedevil all shades of idealism or
activism in this slippery time. And I do not think that features of the Faith
that baldly contradict liberal assumptions about fairness, such as the
composition of the House of Justice or the sexual mores of the Faith, can
simply be overturned. I do not think that will happen. On the other hand, I
do not think these contradictions mean that the logic of liberal thought can
be blithely dismissed as totally in error. They call for thought on our part.
If we are to understand them well enough we must be willing to consider them
as dilemmas and face them without oversimplifying.  I agree with you that the
tenets of the faith cannot be conflated with a facile liberalism, but I would
caution you and others on this forum against too easy a dismissal of
liberalism and also I would caution you against too close an identification
with any form of conservatism.

>So once
>again, and please let me make this _very clear_: I have not said the
Guardian
 >was condemning, wholesale, the West. Nor was he condemning most of the
>wonders and treasures of Western civilization.
>

I know, Jim.  I didn't attribute such a thought to you.  We are not that far
apart on this question. Inadequacies of conception in all human societies and
all human institutions have become unendurable at this point in our
evolution. To wax Hegelian, the contradictions of the dialectic have ripened.
Your formulation of these problems does --seem-- a a bit one sided at times.
Shoghi Effendi is, in my view, more even handed in that he makes plain that
the fall of time-honored institutions has tragic consequences even though
those institutions are both "effete" and "oppressive."  The outbreak of
materialism that characterizes modern life (yes, i think so too) he sees
primarily as an eruption of human attempts to substitute various human
sources of authority--whether scientific rationalism, romantic visionary
sensualism, nationalism or racialism,et cetera,et cetera--for the authority
of religion; at the same time, he stresses that "outworn creeds" must be
swept away!  His is an apocalyptic position. He often used tropes such as
"decadence" which echo such conservative critics as Spengler or Nordau or
Auguste Forel  and apparently drew to some degree upon their analyses of
modern conditions but he differed from them in important respects (avoiding
their misogyny and racialism) and, more fundamentally, he always emphasized
that the faith itself would prove "the last refuge" of a "tottering
civilization."

He did not recommend conservatism (most particularly not American
conservatism) any more than he advocated socialism. American Baha'is are not
supposed to be Republicans anymore than they are supposed to be Democrats.
"Let them refrain from associating themselves, whether by word or by deed,
with the political pursuits of their respective nations, with the policies of
their governments and the schemes and programs of parties and factions....Let
them rise above all particularism and partisanship, above the vain disputes,
the petty calculations, the transient passions that agitate the face, and
engage the attention, of a a changing world."(World Order of
Baha'u'llah,p.64) I find, Jim, that your criticisms of American society are
too one-sided. I would caution you, as I would caution Doug Myers, not to
accept uncritically with the incomplete solutions and faulty analysis of
either of the American political parties. YOu do not sound like Democrats,
but you do sound like Republicans. It is good to sympathize with people's
complaints, but our aim must always be higher.

>The rejection of Baha'u'llah by the leaders cannot though, (I feel) be seen
>in tbe shallow terms that most Baha'is give it.

Of course not!  In fact I find your analysis pretty shallow as well.

 And by this I mean that of
>course Baha'u'llah knew He would be rejected out-of-hand. And this rejection
>itself cannot answer for the lack of response, esp. in the West to the
>message over the past century. You know this as well as anyone because you
>did indeed put in a great deal of work on the whole issue of decadence. So
>what are we missing?
>
>This is where you and I part company. I think we are at *war* on a spiritual
>and mental level.

The metaphor of "war" is an interesting one, often used in the Writings. As I
understand it, we are at war with our own inertia, selfishness,
shortsightedness, prejudice, lust,et cetera.
The leaders, on one level which is glaringly obvious,
>turned their collective backs on Baha'u'llah because of their egos etc. And
>sure, at the time anyone paying attention may have taken the cue from these
>fools.

The idea is that they lost legitimacy, but with nothing to replace the order
they were able to impose, however capriciously, society slid into a chaos
which only the emergence of a new world order can permanently assuage.

But this is not the reason given for our difficulties now, ( as in
>from the time of the Guaridan's writings.) ADJ and CF have very few
>references to the kings, queens and presidents of the world as continuing to
>be the major stumbling blocks to the message of God for this Day. Same holds
>true for leaders of religion.
>
If you can follow my analysis of Shoghi Effendi's writings(as briefly above
or more extensively last year, you know I don't attribute our situation to
the personalities of a few powerful individuals but to the collapse of the
old world order and the resulting chaos together with the immaturity of the
Baha'is, who need to reach out to the people of America with a clear sense of
purpose coupled with a broad sympathy for the divers concerns and hopes
through which people express their hunger for the Beloved.

>What we do see though, speaking of leaders is that in the Universal House of
>Justice message, The Promise of World Peace, a severe tongue lashing of the
>world leaders and leaders of thought who continue to promote outworn
>ideologies and philosophies that enslave millions with false hope and over
up
>their lives to various gods of our collective devising.
>
This is a strange description of a document distinguished for its optimism
and constructive tone.  The House in one section of that letter counseled the
governments of the world to pay heed to reality rather than ideology,  and
urged them to greater determination. They did not scold.

>I am sorry that you feel we are diametrically opposed.

I wouldn't say so at all!
 I would encourage you
>to continue to attack all my weak points though. Better that than some false
>mushy-mushy pretend pap where we keep insisting that it is simply a matter
of
>communication that lies at the root of our fussing. Or something else.
>

I do wish you would be a more careful reader, and moderate your tone, JIm!


regards,

dave taylor






>jim harrison
>
>Alethinos@aol.com
>




=END=


Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 21:27:47 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]" 
To: Ahang Rabbani 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: various

On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Ahang Rabbani wrote:

>
> On a different subject, Nima's comment on Remey reminded me of
> hearing that several of the Hands during the time of the Guardian
> had actually grown sensitive to Remey's arrogance and desire for
> leadership.  For example, they had noted that whenever the Hands
> followed the beloved Guardian to the Shrines, Remey would try to
> position himself ahead of the other Hands, right behind the
> Guardian.  One a couple of occasions, Samandari and Khadem locked
> arms to prevent Remey passing by to get ahead of them, which made
> him rather aggravated.

When the Guardian would accompany the Hands to the Shrine of the Bab, he
would sometimes anoint them with attar of rose as they entered.
Sometime  after the passing of the Guardian, Remey assumed this position
at the entrance to the Shrine and attempted to anoint them as they
entered.  Some of the Hands would not let him do so.



=END=


Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 21:37:52 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]" 
To: Talisman 
Cc: Burl Barer 
Subject: Dear Mr. Burl, re: the Fast


Dear Mr. Burl:

I am not a morning person.  (But then, I shouldn't be.  Isaiah 5:11 says,
"woe unto those who arise early in the morning . . .") However, during the
Fast I must arise early, to get some nutrition into my body for the day.
Here's my problem.  I love a cup of espresso in the morning.  But when I
get up during the Fast, I want to say a prayer, eat or have a smoothie,
then get back into bed for another hour or so of sleep.  So I can't have
the espresso, because then I wouldn't be able to get back to sleep.  But,
when I really get up at 8 a.m., I can't have the espresso because the
sun's up.  What am I to do?
Languid in Las Cruces




=END=


Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 21:46:19 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Dear Dr Burl

Hello all,
I have to say I have known Burl for over 20 years, and he gets better with
age.  There have been so many qualities I see now, that I didn't see
earlier.    And I love it.

As a subscriber to Talisman,  I can see it being a very high class joint...
we have everything  (Alice's restaurant anyone)  regardless of what topic
appears before my screen.  The antics of everyone on Talisman adds to the
character of the group.   I say keep it like it is.  As a proper and chaste
in every sense of the word, (gads, I am blushing,) single female, I don't
have time to think about others and how their sex lives, (if they have one
or not, who cares?) relates to the topics here.   Yet, somehow someone
always brings up "sex"  from out of the left/right/center field ( you know,
baseball field)   to make it fit into the topic as if it was some obsession
of theirs...

Keep up the good work... Derek, Burl, Linda, John, Arsalan, Juan, and
whoever else I have missed

Warmly,
Margreet




=END=


Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 21:57:49 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]" 
To: Talisman 
Subject: Ethics Materials... (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 31 Jan 1996 15:35:29 -0500
From: Miguel Watler 
To: bahai-faith@bcca.org
Newgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Ethics Materials...

Allah'u'abha dear friends,

The National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Poland has a long-term
goal of acquainting all high school youth with the Baha'i Faith so that
they know and respect it.

One of the first steps is the preparation of materials on ethics for
ethics teachers in high schools; materials which are designed to interest
youth, regardless of whether they are interested in the Baha'i Faith or
not. So, the ethics materials are to teach principles which would be
useful in the lives of the youth, rather than to teach the Faith directly.

I am looking for such material on the following two topics:

   Consultation and Conflict Resolution
   Marriage and Family Life

We have already found material on the topics of Business Ethics from a
statement put out by the European Baha'i Business Forum, and on Alcohol,
Narcotics and Drug Abuse from material from Dr. Ghadirian.

I know of some excellent material on Baha'i Marriage and Family Life, but
they are directed towards Baha'is, and would not be appropriate.

Looking forward to your suggestions,
------------------------------------------------------------
Miguel Watler                           "The source of all good is trust in
Cracow University of Technology (E-2)    God, submission unto His command,
31-155 Cracow Poland                     and contentment in His holy will
e-mail: pewatler@kinga.cyf-kr.edu.pl     and pleasure."      - Baha'u'llah.






=END=


Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:10:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: "Stephen R. Friberg" 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Docetism

Sorry, Dr. Burl, don't mean to steal your thunder, thought I'd respond to
Stephen's query.

Stephen, *docetism* is considered an early church heresy which holds that
the human nature of christ to have been completely illusory. Therefore
christ's suffering and death on the cross was a sham staged by God
Himself (or, according some Gnostic groups, as an illusion concocted by
the evil demiurge), since the logos is divine and cannot suffer nor be
killed. The theological implications of this idea would have us believe
that since matter is inherently corrupt and evil the divinity can in no
wise be contaminated by it, therefore Christ did not have a humanity as
such, he was completely divine and his physical body a mere appearance or
shell. The word comes from the Greek _dokeo_ ("to seem or appear").

 Two Gnostic groups we know to have held to this doctrine were the
Valentinians and Manichaeans. It also finds expression in modified form in
4th-6th century Jewish Merkevah mysticism, Lurianic Kabbalah (12th-17th
centuries) and the notion of the Haqqiqah Muhammadiya (The Muhammadan
Reality) in Sufism. The Quranic account of the death of Jesus, that he
was not killed but only an appearance in his stead, seems to strongly
uphold this doctrine. Minus some of the negative theological baggage
attached to it (i.e. matter), it makes a whole lot of metaphysical sense
to me too. Some have called Terry's hypostasial model of Baha'u'llah's
nature -- i.e. Mirza Husayn-`Ali -> Baha'u'llah -> BAHA"U"LLAH (The
Maiden) -- as docetistic. I agree, but I think it also explains a lot. I
guess one can say that the life of each Manifestation in many ways
exhibits a divine comedy; the concept of docetism is one way to explain
why this is so.

Regards,
Nima


**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit  *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth    *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning.                 *
*                                                            *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg     *
*   and Wilhelm Dilthey                                      *
**************************************************************




=END=


Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:05:50 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]" 
To: Talisman 
Subject: Sinaic Imagery


While I rather enjoyed the overall theme and content of John Walbridge's
essay on sexual imagery in Baha'u'llah's writings, I feel that including
the passage from the Tablet of the Deathless Youth as an example of erotic
imagery was blasphemous.  (I am aware of the Talisman rule against
accusing the believers of blasphemy; but it's the appropriate word.) I
don't see any other sexual imagery at all in the part John quotes, or
summarizes without translating.  The Maid of Heaven merely lifts the veil
from the face of the Manifestation.  I don't think that Tablet belongs in
the essay.  Lest the intent be missed, this Tablet is introduced with the
explanation that "the bride too ... now may freely behold her husband,"
clearly implying that the Manifestation was completely naked.  To portray
the Tablet of the Deathless Youth as a depiction of an auto-erotic nude
Bab presents a monstrous vision of the Manifestation.

So, let me explain how I see that imagery.  In His Writings, when
Baha'u'llah speaks of Moses on Mt. Sinai, He identifies Himself with God;
that in this Day, the people can hear what Moses heard from the Burning
Bush.  When Moses came down from the mountain, he constructed a serpent of
bronze, and raised it up on a pole so that all could see it.  If the
people were bitten by a viper, and looked at the serpent of Moses, they
were cured.  (Numbers 21:7-9) This is reminiscent of the passage in the
Gospel in which Jesus says that His true followers will be able to drink
deadly poison and handle poisonous snakes without harm coming to them.
(Mark 16:18) There is a similar passage in the Seven Valleys, where even a
deadly poison is a panacea to the true lover.  To the believer whose
vision is truly focused, even a deadly spirit is transformed into a means
for purification.

Another reference to the serpent of Moses is this:

	So the Lord said to him, "What is that in your hand?"
	And he said, "A rod."
	And He said, "Cast it on the ground."  So he cast it
	on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses
	fled from it.  Then the Lord said to Moses, "Reach out
	your hand and take it by the tail" (and he reached out
	his hand and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand.)
	[Exodus 4:2-4]

Baha'u'llah unveils the symbolic meaning of this:

	. . . [W]ielding the serpent of power and everlasting
	majesty, [Moses] shone forth from the Sinai of light
	upon the world.
	[Iqan p. 11]

When Moses led the Israelites into the desert and they asked for water,
God instructed Moses to "speak" to the "rock," and "water" would flow from
it.  Instead, Moses took His rod in His hand:

	"Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice
	 with his rod; and water came out abundantly. . ."
	 [Numbers 20:11]

This imagery is likewise used by Baha'u'llah:

	O peoples of the earth!  God, the Eternal Truth,
	is my witness that streams of fresh and soft-
	flowing waters have gushed from the rocks through
	the sweetness of the words uttered by your Lord . . .
	[Aqdas paragraph 54]

I feel that the "rock" means the hearts of the believers (in the Iqan, the
"earth" is interpreted as the human heart).  The people did not respond to
the admonitions of the Prophet, so he had to "strike" their hearts twice
with the "rod" of His commandments.  Isn't that the same meaning as Moses
having to bring the laws down from the mountain twice?  That translates
metaphorically to me as the need for the Prophet to repeatedly chastise
the rebellious believers.  The Master, in the chapter of SAQ dealing with
God's Rebukes to the Prophets, identifies this incident of Moses striking
the rock with the rebelliousness of the Jews.

When Moses conversed with God, His face shone so brightly that it
disturbed the Jews, so He wore a veil:

	Now it was so, when Moses came down from Mount Sinai
	that Moses did not know that the skin of his face
	shone while he talked with [God]. . . .
	And when Moses had finished speaking with them,
	he put a veil on his face. . . .
	And whenever the children of Israel saw the
	face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone,
	then Moses would put the veil on his face again,
	until he went in to speak with [God]."
	[Exodus 34:30-35]

Baha'u'llah recalls all of these images in this passage from the Tablet
of the Deathless Youth, when He compares the Bab with Moses:

  "When the gates of Paradise swung wide and the Holy Youth
   came forth, Lo! in His hand was a serpent plain!  Rejoice!
   This is the Deathless Youth, come with a gushing spring.
   Upon His face a veil woven by the fingers of power and
   might.  Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth,
   come with a mighty Name. . . ."


I don't mind my envelope being pushed; but presenting this as sexual
imagery pegged my blaspho-meter.

Brent




=END=


From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 01:49:10 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Natural law and its distortions: A short answer to Mr. Taylor

I am tired so I will make this quick. Excellent post! I do think I see where
we are not connecting. You see I follow what you are saying via the Guardian
- what we read in the Promised Day is Come. And of course your
analysis/review on this is quite accurate I think. And I always agreed with
that. But what I have been talking about are the underlying philosophical
developments/structures, evolutions/devolutions and mutations that *allowed*
such changes to take place. Of course it is a multi-lane freeway here. So in
essence I think we are both correct in our analysis as far as we both go.

Now Dave, I am not saying this to placate you! I mean it. But I have got to
get some sleep. So what I propose is that we explore how both our analyses
could work to the benefit of each other, hmmmmm?

jim harrison



=END=


From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 01:32:29 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Sen's excellent questions on natural law & rights


These are some excellent questions Sen! I will do my best. I can only hope
our other resident Platonists, esp. Nima will join in here.

>>1) What about the question of access to the world of ideas, and
thus our ability to perceive justice etc?<<

   To try and get to the crux of this question is not easy. So bear with me
here. Justice, from the Platonic sense (and fromt he Baha'i sense too) is
obviously not a static thing. It is an attribute of God. It flows. And we
have *access* to it. But since all humans vary in their capacities and
abilities not everyone will have the same capacity to understand a given
attribute or manifest as another will. Take for instance Abdu'l-Baha's
statement that women are inherently more merciful and compassionate than men.
At first that can be a real shock. But if we combine that statement with
others He made concerning the *powers* of women we see that He was
essentially saying that the *ability* to manifest these two attributes is
more developed in women (in general obviously) than men. It isn't as if women
were somehow inherently superior - in an essential way - from men; that makes
as much sense as the age old vica versa garbage.

But that capacity is wider - like the difference between a creek bed and a
river bed. Now, to lace this whole thing with experiential *evidence* I have
certainly met women with little or no mercy or compassion. Not having been
able to trace their life history I can't tell if it was literally beaten out
of them physically, mentally, &/or emotionally or not - in some cases I'd be
willing to guess yes. But in others no. And a lot of these women may never
have been well *educated* in these atributes; their own mothers perhaps being
devoid.

I think capacity is an area that we have to approach carefully. We tend to
mix it up with action. And motive. Clearly in the Faith we are told that we
have the capacity to judge those who are on our same *level* and those below,
while we may not understand the motives and actions of those *above*. This is
in a passage that is speaking about the condition of the soul after death,
but it reads (to me) true for this world also - mainly because other Writings
tend to support this notion:

>>The people of Baha, who are the inmates of the
Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one
another's state and condition, and are united in the
bonds of intimacy and fellowship.  Such a state, however,
must depend upon their faith and their conduct.
They that are of the same grade and station
are fully aware of one another's capacity, character,
accomplishments and merits.  They that are of a lower
grade, however, are incapable of comprehending
adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of
those that rank above them.  Each shall receive his
share from thy Lord.  Blessed is the man that hath
turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly
in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto
God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful,
the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.
(Gleanings, page 170)


If you compare this with the Master's statement on Prom. of Universal Peace,
p. 456-7 where we are told to use the criterion of the Hidden Words to judge
the actions of another - esp. in protecting the Cause we begin to see an area
emerging where we indeed can and must manifest to the best of our abilities
the attribute of Justice. Does everyone have the same capacity? Obviously
not, otherwise there would be no crime now. And if somehow everyone were to
in the future be able to mirror forth the attribute equally than there would
be no laws concerning what to do with criminals.

And while the development of the mind and reason are extremely important in
(possibly) facilitating the manifesting of an attribute such as justice, they
are by no means absolute essentials. This again can be seen through
experience. Decisions handed down by the U.S. Supreme Court have at times
been a mockery of justice; yet then men who sat there were the most well
educated in the country. Their reasoning was sharp. Their minds nimble. And
yet we have the Dred Scott case, and the others I mentioned a few weeks ago -
Lockner v New York and Plessy v Ferguson. Not to mention others. And yet the
man on the street could easily see that an injustice had been committed.

So, as Plato insisted it is not simply a matter of intelligence. It is that
reaching beyond. I think Christ taught this first really, when He gave such
revolutionary teachings as "Love thine enemy . . ." etc. I mean He was really
asking mere mortals to push the mental/spiritual envelope. As a matter of
fact it took the early Church fathers a few centuries to try and form the
intellectual *proofs* around the core of Christ's teachings. And yet humble
folk grasped it readily enough.

The mind is a power of the soul - a tool as it were. It must be there to work
in tandem with the spiritual capacities that can reach beyond mere reasoning.
That is, after all why the Manifestations come - to expand that latent power
within us.

But you're right Sen, it is not easily defined. Especially in the West where
we want to nail that sucker down, slap it with THE defining label and walk
away satisfied.

I realize this is only a partial to just one question but I have to get up in
four hours so I have to go. More tomorrow. Thanks again for such penetrating
questions!!!!

jim harrison

Alethinos@aol.com



=END=


Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:05:54 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Adam Smith Day
To: talisman@indiana.edu

---- Begin Forwarded Message
My dear Arsalan
You should know that Linda after the Dairy Queen Jimmy incident
< veteran Talismanians will remember that piece of history> before John
fell madly in love with two economists one after the other. Due to the
poor chaps being dedicated to save the Planet bent over their
sliderules and graphs. They alas missed the adoration in Linda's eyes.
She actually transfered to the Economics department so she too could
become an economist like her heroes. Sadly the college made a mistake
and transfered her to home economics. Linda from that day on has had an
unreasonable dislike of economists. But in her college room for a brief
time was a poster of Adam Smith in a place of honor.Just think of the
different path Linda's life would have taken with the help of
Economics.
So Arsalan be kind to Linda, DR.Burl and I are always the very essence
of kindness to her.
Kindest regards
Uncle DR. Derek, Dr. Burl's best friend and the one Linda loves the
most.Do not forget to send the check for the Patagonia Holiday fund.
Subject: Adam Smith Day

Dear Arsalon, I got onto e-mail this evening to do some business
correspondence
but found  your message and feel a need to respond as it is obviously
of
extreme importance.

Why do I so strongly oppose Adam Smith Day?  Well, off the top of my
head - and
considering that I have never thought about it before - I would say
that I
oppose it so adamantly because it is such a boring name.  Look, in this
little
burg that I am forced to live in, there are 537 Smiths listed.  Why
would I
want any of them to feel they have a special name when it is such a
common one?
And the name Adam.  Well, we feminist ninja types just can't forgive
that guy
Adam for placing all the blame on Eve.

So, here you have another well thought out, stimulating, highly
intellectual
Talisman posting.  Add it to the zillion others you have been
collecting to
enhance your vocabulary and writing style.

And look at how much money I've saved you.  I'll be glad to answer any
and all
questions free of charge.  Linda





=END=


Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 23:34 PST
To: "Stephen R. Friberg" 
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Dear Dr. Burl:
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

>Dear Dr. Burl:
>
>In part three of Professor Coles "Poetics" article, the following quote
>can be encountered:
>
>"Neither the Ten Sessions nor the passion plays of Iran ever
>included a dramatization of Jesus's death, since popular Islam
>tended, in *docetic* fashion, to deny the crucifixion."
>
>Could you please expound learnedly on the meaning of "docetic"?
>
>Intellectual-challenged.
>
>Dear I-C:

   Either Juan has made a theological error, or he is using a little known
meaning of docetic.  Docetic refers to the concept that Jesus's body was, at
all times, not subject to the law of gravity.  There were also heretics who
argued (not too wisely) that Jesus' body was not material but was more along
the lines of a hologram or phantasmic apparition.  This puts Jesus on par
with Lee Falk's "The Phantom" -- The Ghost Who Walks -- which first appeared
on February 17th, 1936 (with a Sunday page added in May of 1939) originally
drawn by Ray Moore. In 1942 the comic strip was taken over by his assistant,
Wilson McCoy until McCoy's death. In 1982 Sy Barry took over. But I digress
into my pool of endless knowledge. Back to the main point:  Juan's essential
error is this -- the reason the Moslems did not portray the death of Jesus
is because of the verse in the Qur'an that says "They killed him not nor did
they crucify Him. Nay, only his likeness." (Mr. Burl quotes from memory
here, but that's close).  This is most often explained by Moslem
commentators that actually it was Judas who died on the cross in Jesus'
place and Jesus was taken up to heaven. Note that the Qur'an does not say
that he rose to heaven simply by lack of gravity -- as if He were of Divine
Helium.  It has been offered (absurdly) as an explanation that one reason
why Islamic art does not portray the His Holiness Jesus is because, were
they also were of the opinion that Jesus' body was not subject to the law of
gravity, Christ must always be portrayed as wearing heavy iron shoes to keep
from floating away like a carton of Tang in a space capsule.  The Moslem
concept of Jesus not dying on the cross is not to be confused with the
"anti-gravity Christ" of docetic concept.

With that established, I must assume that Juan was using the "other"
contectual definiton of docetic which can be easily explained by taking a
good look at his wording:  " since popular Islam
>tended, in *docetic* fashion.."

Juan here is using a colloquial corruption of the Spanish, "dos celtics"
which itself is a perpetuated error -- celts is pronounced "kelts" and here
is derived from "kilts," a temporary fashion trend popular in Moslem
countries after the ill-fated interaction with Scottish Christians.  While
Moslem men adopted the kilt, they found that the strong desert winds would
whistle up their make-shift cross cultural dhoties and literally lift them
off the ground unless they wore two of them (dos in Spanish). This made them
subject to many jokes, the least tastfull of which involved references to
them being immune to the law of gravity -- the same immunity bestowed upon
Christ by those of the docetic persuasion. Hence, these kilts became known
derisively, in a bizarre play on words,  as "docetic fashion."
I am sure this is the meaning Prof. Cole intended.

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from  Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 01:27:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]" 
Cc: Talisman 
Subject: In John's defense (Re: Sinaic Imagery)

Brent jan--

First of all, I seriously suggest you get yourself a copy of Rudolf
Otto's classic _The Sacred and the Profane_ and also White Cloud Press'
_The Green Sea of Heaven: Fifty Ghazals from the Diwan of Hafez_ for the
essay by Daryush Shayegan, _The Visionary Topography of Hafiz_. You said:


> While I rather enjoyed the overall theme and content of John Walbridge's
> essay on sexual imagery in Baha'u'llah's writings, I feel that including
> the passage from the Tablet of the Deathless Youth as an example of erotic
> imagery was blasphemous.

The view expressed here is so completely sub-culturally bound in an
*exoteric*, Protestant/Catholic Montanist, puritanic vision, which
sharply bifurcates the realms of sexuality and spirituality, it's not
even funny. I submit to you that erotic imagery often bordering on the
sexually ecstatic, nay orgasmic rather, is part and parcel of the eastern
esoteric tradition, especially Tantrism and Sufism, so your objection
does not make any sense from a universalist perspective. Heck, it even
exists in the western esoteric tradition with people like St. Theresea of
Avila, Meister Eckhart and Margueritte Porete. And, yes, I say
Baha'u'llah's ecstatic visionary, Revelatory confessions in the Tablet of
the Deathless Youth are inseparable from this ethos. You want
blasphemous, try reading Hafiz sometime with his references to "beardless
youth" and "stained shirts," or Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi --
together with the Masnavi, one of Baha'u'llah's favorite works.

The rest of your post, IMHO, had no pertinence whatsoever as to why you feel
John's treatment of the issue is blasphemous; your arguments neither add nor
detract from John's overall thesis. All John did was to analyze imagery,
that was all. If sexually erotic motifs are either explicit or implied in
a text, and dare I say Baha'i ones, whatever the theology of it might be,
what is the problem with bringing them out and enumerating upon them? We
are being a wee bit too prudish here, I feel.

Where is our Malak-i adibAn, Frank Lewis, when we need him?

Brent, your charge of blasphemy was in bad taste. John deserves much,
much better than that. An apology is in order.

Nima

**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit  *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth    *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning.                 *
*                                                            *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg     *
*   and Wilhelm Dilthey                                      *
**************************************************************






=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 01:51:06 -0800
To: "Stephen R. Friberg" , tan1@cornell.edu,
        talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia

>Dear Doug:

>You remark:
>
>> If my remarks above sound cynical that is because they are
>> --- or were until I became a Baha'i.  I don't know the answers=20
>> either, yet.  Last spring when the "Prosperity of Humankind"=20
>> came out I read it with interest.  It all looked familiar and=20
>> there was nothing *noticeable* new.  It was OK.  After putting=20
>> it down I stopped an thought, "Hey boy, the House of Justice=20
>> requests the Baha'i International Community to write this and my
>> only thought is that it is OK.  What am I missing here?"  I went=20
>> back and reread it four more times.  Each time I saw more and
>> more in it.  What that document asks the world --- not just the=20
>> Baha'is --- but the whole world ---  to do is stop and rethink=20
>> its ways of doing business. =20
>
>Precisely my reaction too, but I didn't reread it carefully as you
>did.  I always meant too, though.
>
>> I could easily quote great parts of it . . .=20
>
>Any chance that you would do so?  And if you were to explain how you
>understand it along the lines of what you did above, I would be
>delighted!
>
>Yours sincerely,
>Stephen R. Friberg

Dear Stephan,

May I suggest that we look at an overview of the "Prosperity" statement?

There is a gestalt about it that is deceptive.  Yes, each part has its
function, urgency, and requirements but in some ways it doesn't matter where
I plumb its depths because it always beings me back to *unity*.  Unity in
not leaving anyone out of the decisions to be made, unity in who benefits
from its implementaion --- *everyone*, unity and saftey brought about by
justice, unity in the conception of the rolls and duties of science and
religion, the unity that will be achieved by the release of the limitless
possibilites latent in the human consciousness that will result from the end
of peverty and unemployment while acheiving a *new* work ethic, the unity
that can be acheived when we truly understand the meaning and use of power.

The following is the article I wrote for the May 1995 issue of our
newsletter for the California Northcoast.  I hope you don't mind the sytyle.
I write as if we sitting in the living room with our feet up and enjoying a
hot cup of coffee on this winters day (well me with my Morning Thunder and
you with whatever you like).

We can use this as the beginning point for a conversationon the "Prosperity"
statement.



A Major Statement Written at the Request of The Universal House of Justice

     Where to begin?  "The Prosperity of Humankind" is one of the best
documents I have ever seen.  The statement focuses the Baha'i perspective on
the ills that infect the world.  It is a perfect example of the medicine,
the divine elixir the world needs and seeks.  This statement contains
powerful words, phrases, and ideas such as: "reorganisation of human
affairs"; "consciously and systematically"; "rethinking"; "re-examination";
"the purpose of redevelopment is being redefined"; "look again at
assumptions"; "raises fundamental questions".  I could go on but you get the
idea.

     This document is challenging!  We will all have to rethink our basic
assumptions about many things.  Each person will have their own areas that
are challenged.  I know that multiple readings, study, meditation, and
discussion with friends has forced me to rethink what I thought were
reasonable ideas and concepts but that do not fit into a
truly Baha'i perspective.  As I read this important document I needed to
continually keep in mind the thought of evaluating a situation, not by men's
standards but by the standard of God.

     This statement addresses the very basis of the materialistic society
that we have grown up in.  As a Baha'i I have given lip service to the
concept of our being spiritual beings.  I have wondered if it has become
a shallow mantra like many oft repeated phrases.  The "Prosperity of
Humankind" takes the high and lofty ideals of the Faith and puts them
in practical, concrete relation to our lives and aspirations.
     As it says in paragraph 2, there must be a vision of prosperity that
combines spiritual and material well-being that includes all peoples
"without distinction".

     The sentiment of =91=91all peoples=92=92 is echoed as one of the keys=
 to
solving the problems.  A group of elite cannot tell others what and how to
do something and what the ultimate goals must be.  The problems will only be
solved if we are unified and each person has input into the choices of goals
and methods.  Responsibility is one of the keys --- both individual and
collective.

     Unity!  How often have we talked about unity?  No, not the pie in the
sky nice soft and fluffy kind of unity, but rather, the type of unity that
engages every person, whatever their station in life, and institutions, in a
march toward achieving their greatest potential and by so doing =91=91. . .
laying foundations for a new social order that can cultivate the limitless
potentialities latent in the human consciousness.=92=92 (par. 44)

     As Baha'is, we often talk about mankind coming of age.  This statement
puts that proposition clearly in front of us.  We, the citizens of the
world, need to stand up and be counted.  This statement issues the clarion
call to us that there is only one way --- *unity*!  The citizens of the
world are called upon to "take up, consciously and systematically, the
responsibility for the design of their future." (par. 3)  We have
reached the age of maturity!  We must act in our own behalf, for our good,
as an intelligent corporate body.  This also puts the responsibility clearly
and demonstrably on our shoulders.  It is up to humankind to act --- God
will not be doing the job for us, though the Faith assures us of His=
 assistance!

     Paragraph 14 is the best description of the phrase =91=91unity in
diversity=92=92 I have every read or heard --- NOW I understand!  {it was to
long to try to put in this article but I found its comparison of the human
body and our world fascinating to say the least}

     Justice!  Justice is a guide, a key, a protection!  The statement deals
with justice on all its various levels; be it a power (par. 18), concerning
the individual and truth (par. 19), as the link between the individual and
society (par. 20), freedom and the individual (par. 22), freedom and the
independent investigation of the truth (par. 24), =91=91The security of the
family and the home, the ownership of property, and the right to privacy . .
.=92=92 (par. 26), and much more.

     Part III, in general and paragraphs 31 and 32 specifically, concern the
importance of consultation.  We Bah=E1'=EDs too often take consultation as a
given but the world knows little of it.  =91=91The standard of truth seeking
this process demands is far beyond the patterns of negotiation and
compromise that tend to characterise the present-day discussion of human
affairs.=92=92  (par. 32)

     Science and religion!  Part IV gives the challenges that face both of
these molders of our lives.  The unification of the material and the
spiritual aspects of our lives is necessary for the discourse on=
 development.

     Science can get us to think in terms of process.  Then =91=91. . . the
training that can make it possible for the earth's inhabitants to
participate in the production of wealth will advance the aims of development
only to the extent that such an impulse is illumined by the spiritual
insight that service to humankind is the purpose of both individual life and
social organisation.=92=92  (par. 43)

     Economics!  What do you want to know about the various aspects of
economics?  Part V addresses the purpose of economics, poverty,
unemployment, work, how the environment is involved with economics, and the
equality of women and men.  I already used the quote about =91=91laying
foundations for a new social order=92=92 from this
section and that is just the beginning of this section.

     As Baha'is we know the importance of the equality of women and men but
this statement takes this principle and soars to new heights of its
importance by informing us that:  =91=91given the vital role of economic
activity in the advancement of civilization, visible evidence of the pace at
which development is progressing will be the extent to
which women gain access to all avenues of economic endeavour.=92=92 =
 (par.54)

     Power!  =91=91As with all other implications of the accelerating
integration of the planet and its people, both of these terms (power and the
authority to exercise it) stand in urgent need of redefinition.=92=92   =
 (par. 55)

     We need to move from the irrelevant competitive expression of power to
new definitions of power:  the power of truth itself, a force of character,
the influence of example, and that =91=91unappreciated force=92=92 of unity.=
  (par.
57 & 58)

     Five new definitions of authority are given in paragraph 59 ending
with:  =91=91No single principle of effective authority is so important as
giving to building and maintaining unity among the members of a society and
the members of its administrative institutions.=92=92

     Decision making and politics are examined in paragraph 60 including a
call for no nominations, candidature, electioneering or solicitation in
selecting those who make collective decisions on society's behalf.

     Part VII is the summation.  =91=91The protagonists to whom the=
 challenge
addresses itself are all of the inhabitants of the planet.=92=92  (par. 62)
=91=91The response called for must base itself on an unconditional=
 recognition
of the oneness of humankind, . . . justice . . . and a systematic dialogue
between the scientific and religious genius of the=20
race . . .=92=92  (par. 62)

     I hope I have whetted your appetite for reading, studying, and
discussing "The Prosperity of Humankind".  It is so packed with delicacies
that it will take much effort to digest, as it did with the "Ridv=E1n 150
Message".

     The two quotes that, to my mind, show the totality of the task ahead of
each of us as Baha'is and as citizens of the world are:  =91=91A world is
passing away and a new one is struggling to be born.=92=92 (par. 64)  =91=91=
. . .
the history of humanity as one people is now beginning.=92=92 (par. 3)

Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives."   JB




=END=


Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 05:12:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: comments on Ghulam-i Khuld

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]


As I've said before, John's masterful translation of Lawh
Ghulam-i Khuld must indeed be recognized as one of the high notes
of Talisman history and I for one am very grateful to him for
sharing it with us.

I've taken the liberty of commenting on translation of a few
phrases and offer them herewith.  I've done so only for the first
1.5 pages of the Tablet, and in the course of the next few days,
I like to go through the entire Tablet.  (I don't know if
Talisman is the appropriate forum for discussing translation
issues or we should move this dialogue to Tarjuman, but I leave
that decision to others.)

My unworthy comments are in square brackets.


Baha'u'llah

The Tablet of
The Deathless Youth
    ---------
[The term "Khuld" evokes both a sense of paradise and eternity.
Indeed I don't know of a single term in English which conveys
this concept from Arabic.  In using Khuld with association with
the Youth (the Bab), Baha'u'llah is invoking a sense of coming of
paradise as the result of His (the Bab's) appearance which will
last for the eternity.  Therefore, I suggest translating Khuld as
Eternal.]

Translated by
John Walbridge

Not to be copied.

The Tablet of the Deathless Youth

This is mention of that which was made manifest in the Year
        ---------------------------------------
Sixty, in the Days of God, the Powerful, the Help in Peril, the
Almighty, the Knower.
[I suggest the following as the translation:  This is the
Remembrance that became manifest in the Year Sixty [1260H].
While it seems that Baha'u'llah uses the term "Dhikr" to play on
the title of the Bab, "the Remembrance", and to evoke His memory,
I think it's a clear reference to the Manifestation of the Bab.]


When the gates of Paradise swung wide and the Holy Youth came
forth, lo! in His hand was a serpent plain!
                                     -----
[Suggest replacing "serpent plain" with "conspicuous serpent".
The phrase "mubin", I think is closer to "evident" or
"conspicuous" than "plain" which is rather ambiguous.]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a gushing spring.
                                      ----        -------
[Baha'u'llah uses the phrase "qad ja`" which in my reading a past
tense event, in which case perhaps "came" should be the term
used throughout.   "ma` m`uyin" evokes the image of a clear,
pure, life-giving water; "gushing" is not the same".  I think we
need to replace "gushing" with "pure-water".]


Upon His face a veil woven by the fingers of power and might.

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Name.

Upon His head a crown of beauty, light for the people of every
heaven, every earth.

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.

Tresses of spirit hung upon His shoulders, black like musk upon
bright and luminous pearls.

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a wondrous Cause.


Upon the finger of His right hand, a ring with a pearl of
immaculate holiness.

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty spirit.


Graven thereon in a hidden and pre-eternal script, "By God, a
noble angel is this!"  Thereupon, the hearts of the people of
                                                    ---------
eternity cried aloud.
--------
["ahli-i baqa`" is rendered as "people of eternity", but perhaps
a simple "immortals" would do here.]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with an ancient light.
                                                ----------------
["nur-i qadim", I believe is a reference to God, and as such
should be rendered as "the Ancient Light".]


Upon his right cheek a mole whereby the faiths of the mystics
                                                      -------
were shaken.  Thereupon the people of the veil of divinity cried
aloud!
[It seems by the phrase "`arifin", Baha'u'llah has in mind the
believers, afterall appearance of a new Manifestation has no
effect on the ungodly, but it does move to their depth those who
believe.  Therefore, I suggest replacing it with "faithful".]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty secret.


This pertaineth to that Point from which branched forth all the
-----------------------------
knowledge of the past and of the present.  Thereupon the people
             ---------------------------
of the angelic realm sang aloud.
[Suggest replacing the first part with:  "And this is the Point".
And also replacing the second underline section with "the
beginning and of the end" which I think is closer to "avalin va
akharin" in the original.]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty
knowledge.

This indeed is a knight of the spirit, circling about the Spring
of Salsabil.  Thereupon a clamor arose from that people nigh the
                        ------------------------
veil of the Kingdom of Might.
[I think the phrase "sajj' can simply be rendered "lamented"
which is closer to all the earlier imageries used by the
faithful and those on paradise crying upon the appearance of the
Bab.]


Well, this is as far as I got this morning.  I'll try to do a bit
more in the next few days.  I realize these thoughts may have no
value to others whatsoever, but it causes me to read this
wonderful Tablet more closely, and for that, I'm also very
grateful to John.

best wishes, ahang.





=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:32:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry 
To: Sadra 
Cc: "[G. Brent Poirier]" ,
        Talisman 
Subject: Re: In John's defense (Re: Sinaic Imagery)

i have never seen otto`s `sacred and profane` nor heard of it!. have you
publication details?
robert

On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Sadra wrote:

> Brent jan--
>
> First of all, I seriously suggest you get yourself a copy of Rudolf
> Otto's classic _The Sacred and the Profane_ and also White Cloud Press'
> _The Green Sea of Heaven: Fifty Ghazals from the Diwan of Hafez_ for the
> essay by Daryush Shayegan, _The Visionary Topography of Hafiz_. You said:
>
>
> > While I rather enjoyed the overall theme and content of John Walbridge's
> > essay on sexual imagery in Baha'u'llah's writings, I feel that including
> > the passage from the Tablet of the Deathless Youth as an example of erotic
> > imagery was blasphemous.
>
> The view expressed here is so completely sub-culturally bound in an
> *exoteric*, Protestant/Catholic Montanist, puritanic vision, which
> sharply bifurcates the realms of sexuality and spirituality, it's not
> even funny. I submit to you that erotic imagery often bordering on the
> sexually ecstatic, nay orgasmic rather, is part and parcel of the eastern
> esoteric tradition, especially Tantrism and Sufism, so your objection
> does not make any sense from a universalist perspective. Heck, it even
> exists in the western esoteric tradition with people like St. Theresea of
> Avila, Meister Eckhart and Margueritte Porete. And, yes, I say
> Baha'u'llah's ecstatic visionary, Revelatory confessions in the Tablet of
> the Deathless Youth are inseparable from this ethos. You want
> blasphemous, try reading Hafiz sometime with his references to "beardless
> youth" and "stained shirts," or Rumi's Divan-i Shams-i Tabrizi --
> together with the Masnavi, one of Baha'u'llah's favorite works.
>
> The rest of your post, IMHO, had no pertinence whatsoever as to why you feel
> John's treatment of the issue is blasphemous; your arguments neither add nor
> detract from John's overall thesis. All John did was to analyze imagery,
> that was all. If sexually erotic motifs are either explicit or implied in
> a text, and dare I say Baha'i ones, whatever the theology of it might be,
> what is the problem with bringing them out and enumerating upon them? We
> are being a wee bit too prudish here, I feel.
>
> Where is our Malak-i adibAn, Frank Lewis, when we need him?
>
> Brent, your charge of blasphemy was in bad taste. John deserves much,
> much better than that. An apology is in order.
>
> Nima
>
> **************************************************************
> * Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
> * has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit  *
> * of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth    *
> * even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning.                 *
> *                                                            *
> * --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg     *
> *   and Wilhelm Dilthey                                      *
> **************************************************************
>
>
>



=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:47:40 +0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: S.N.Lambden@newcastle.ac.uk (Stephen Lambden)
Subject: TABLETS OF BAHA'U'LLAH 2A:01 Pt.II

Beloved Tarjumites/Talismanians,

        What follows is Pt II of my slightly revised prov. trans. of the *Lawh-i
kull al-ta`am* ("Tablet of All Food"; c. 1854 CE) of Baha'u'llah. It first
appeared with commentary in BSB 3:1 (June 1984), pp.4-67. Various texts
were consulted though I mostly followed the superior ms in INBA 36:268-277.
The texts printed in Ishraq Khavari's *Ma'ida-yi Asmani* (4:265-276) and
*Rahiq-i makhtum* (2:416-426) contain quite a few textual errors.No
critical edition exists. The Provisional translation which follows remains
a ROUGH DRAFT. Notification of errors of translation and inadequacies of
style would be greatly appreciated.

Love and salutations,

Steve

                                    [X]

        [1]   So Ah! Alas! If there should surge upon me a sprinkling from
the Ocean of Divine Authorization from the Sovereign of the Realm of the
Divine Cloud and King of Glory, [2] I would expound that verse [Qur'an
3:87] with the accents of the spiritual ones, the sanctified myriads, and
the melodies of the enraptured ones. [3] Since I have not inhaled, however,
the fragrance of realization or accomplishment then that which I have
already set forth for you must suffice you; for it is sufficient proof unto
those who were, in the days of their Lord, given to remembrance.

        [4]  In view of the fact that you have sought and derived warmth
from the Fire of Love and have found pleasure in the charm of the trace of
ink in these apposite Tablets, then bear witness and be assured that I
[Baha'u'llah] have claimed naught but servitude to God, the True One.[5]
And God is my arbitrator against that which the people falsely allege.


        [6]   Say: `Woe unto you on account of that which your hands have
committed; hereafter shall you be brought before the Knower of that which
is hidden and that which is manifest [see Qur'an 9:106b] and assuredly, in
this respect, be questioned.'

        [7] Say: `O People of the Concourse! Be not astonished at the
handiwork of God, the mercy of God and His blessings upon you, if you are
of those who are informed. [8] Fear God! and know that the handiwork of God
radiates forth in the image[s?] of the Lamp of Eternality among the
artistry of the people. How is
it that you neither consider this nor bear witness unto it?'

                                   [XI]

        [1]  Then Ah! Alas! By He Who hath restrained the dove of sorrow in
the breast of al-Baha' [Baha'u'llah]! [2] All that I have witnessed from
the day on which I first drank the pure milk from the breast of My mother
until this moment hath been effaced from my memory in consequence of that
which the
hands of the people have committed. [3] And God is aware of all that
pertains to the people though they are not informed.

        [4] Say: `O People of the Realm of the Divine Cloud! Issue forth
from your habitations and present yourselves in the sanctum of Light, the
manifest Divine Cloud, the most-great House of God, as hath been decreed,
with the permission of God, the Exalted Who beareth witness, in the Tablet
of
the Heart.'

                                  [XII]

        [1] I, verily, conclude this discourse in that the Dove of Light
sang forth aforetime at the moment of its [His] arrival in the Land of
Exhilaration and warbled with the accents of the heart. [2] And you know, O
my beloved, that, for the sake of God, I desired authorization since
patience, on account of my love for the unveiled beauty of God, had
departed from me. [3] And you know that a son of adultery wilfully desired
to shed My blood. [4] Nay, by the presence of Thy Might! I do not pledge
allegiance unto him, either in secret or publicly. [5] It is God alone Who
causeth the day of the spilling of My blood to draw
nigh and when My tears shall be sprinkled upon the dust.[6] So, O would
that this My day were the day of the shedding of my blood, for my ardent
desire is for the soil. [7] So praised be God, One Worthy of Praise and
Mighty, above that which the associators assert with respect to His
description. And praise be to God, Wondrous Lord of all the Worlds.


                                * * * * * *



Stephen N. Lambden
44 Queens Road, Jesmond,
Newcastle upon Tyne, NE2 2PQ
England. U.K.

Voice/Fax. +44 [0] 191. 2818597
Email S.N.Lambden@ncl.ac.uk





=END=


From: "Gerald J. and Virginia P. Healy" 
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:14:33 -0500
To: 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)

On Sun, Dec 31, 1995 11:28:13 AM, Juan R Cole wrote:

>This is fine for a small community; the system really is oriented toward
>the village!  But in a large community like Los Angeles, how do you even
>know who all the better candidates are.  In fact, what happens is that
>once someone is elected they tend to be elected over and over again.  In
>Los Angeles, it is no secret that there have been problems with the
>functioning of the LSA, and the NSA at one point even directly
>intervened.  And yet when elections resumed the same individuals were
>elected again (not that any one of them was necessarily at fault for the
>problems).

When the Los Angeles Assembly was reelected after it was disbanded by the
National Spiritual Assembly, only two members of the disbanded Assembly
were reelected:  Lois Hall Willows and John Kavelin.  In addition, there
have one to three by-elections a year, indicating a healthy turnover of
membership.  However, it always seems like the same Assembly.

Sorry for the delay in sending this, but I wanted to verify the above.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Virginia Healy

Encinitas, California
email:  healy@ pipeline.com
--
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----



=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 17:59:17+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: prosperity statement

Dear Friends:

I have not seen this statement.  Is there any way someone could either email
a copy, or send one snail mail?  Don and I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,

Bev.




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:59:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: Loni Bramson-Lerche 
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Biological sexes



Loni and Jackson:


Tom Laquer, a historian at UC-Berkeley, demonstrated in his seminal book
*Making Sex* that the Aristotelian-Galenic tradition that dominated
medical thought in medieval Europe and the Muslim world posited a
*one-sex* model of human sexuality.  It held that women were inverted
men.  In fact, in medieval Europe there appears to have occasionally been
fear that some women might pop out and become men.  The one-sex model was
upheld by Avicenna as well.  It was only overturned in favor of a two-sex
model with the Enlightenment and nineteenth-century physiology, which
rejected the medieval analogies that had been proposed between male and
female physiology.  With contemporary genetic findings, the plausibility
of a one-sex model has now returned, though it has not been widely embraced.

My strong suspicion is that Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha had an
Avicennian one-sex model of human biology, and that it may underlie
their view of the equality of the sexes.  (The medieval one-sex model had
still been highly patriarchal, since the female version of inverted
masculinity was considered "inferior" by male physicians; however, one
could build an equality scenario on a one-sex model, which they appear to
have done).


cheers   Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan



=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu,  1 Feb 96 10:52:18 PST
Subject: Santa Monica/L.A.
To: talisman@indiana.edu


Planning to visit my children in Santa Monica from March 1 to 10.
What's going to be happening then there? First obligation is to be
with family but I will have some free time.

Philip

-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/01/96
Time: 10:52:18

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein




=END=


From: alma@indirect.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:18:20 -0700
To: "Ahang Rabbani" , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: comments on Ghulam-i Khuld

Ahang,  If you can find it appropriate, please do keep commenting on this
Tablet and other translations here.  From the very little amount of 'literal
translation' that Juan shared with us last summer when he was working on a
poetic translation, I can see that though it may just be faceting and
polishing the diamond that our Writings are, there is more than one way to
do this and we who read the translation are usually unaware of this.  What
it does for me when I am aware of it and it is appropriate is to set a
dynamic tension between the two meanings so that in a sense my mind flickers
back and forth between them.   Your very first suggestion with regard to
'Khuld' gives me a deeper appreciation of how Baha'u'llah was referring to
the Bab whether or not Juan decides to accept it.

In peace,
Alma

 To tread the path of Love                Alma Engels
          Is no mere game.                alma@indirect.com
          For only one
          Out of many thousands
          Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)




=END=


From: alma@indirect.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:18:23 -0700
To: S.N.Lambden@newcastle.ac.uk (Stephen Lambden), talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: TABLETS OF BAHA'U'LLAH 2A:01 Pt.II

Dear Stephen,

My belated thanks for sharing this with us.  Such a bountiful week it has
been for we who read English -- so many translations!  After we have had a
chance to ponder on these, I hope that those who translate will share with
us further beauties.

In peace and with Baha'i love,
Alma

At 12:47 PM 2/1/96 +0000, Stephen Lambden wrote:
>Beloved Tarjumites/Talismanians,
>
>        What follows is Pt II of my slightly revised prov. trans. of the
*Lawh-i
>kull al-ta`am* ("Tablet of All Food"; c. 1854 CE) of Baha'u'llah. It first
>appeared with commentary in BSB 3:1 (June 1984), pp.4-67. Various texts
>were consulted though I mostly followed the superior ms in INBA 36:268-277.
>The texts printed in Ishraq Khavari's *Ma'ida-yi Asmani* (4:265-276) and
>*Rahiq-i makhtum* (2:416-426) contain quite a few textual errors.No
>critical edition exists. The Provisional translation which follows remains
>a ROUGH DRAFT. Notification of errors of translation and inadequacies of
>style would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Love and salutations,
>
>Steve
>
>                                    [X]
>
>        [1]   So Ah! Alas! If there should surge upon me a sprinkling from
>the Ocean of Divine Authorization from the Sovereign of the Realm of the
>Divine Cloud and King of Glory, [2] I would expound that verse [Qur'an
>3:87] with the accents of the spiritual ones, the sanctified myriads, and
>the melodies of the enraptured ones. [3] Since I have not inhaled, however,
>the fragrance of realization or accomplishment then that which I have
>already set forth for you must suffice you; for it is sufficient proof unto
>those who were, in the days of their Lord, given to remembrance.
>
>        [4]  In view of the fact that you have sought and derived warmth
>from the Fire of Love and have found pleasure in the charm of the trace of
>ink in these apposite Tablets, then bear witness and be assured that I
>[Baha'u'llah] have claimed naught but servitude to God, the True One.[5]
>And God is my arbitrator against that which the people falsely allege.
>
>
>        [6]   Say: `Woe unto you on account of that which your hands have
>committed; hereafter shall you be brought before the Knower of that which
>is hidden and that which is manifest [see Qur'an 9:106b] and assuredly, in
>this respect, be questioned.'
>
>        [7] Say: `O People of the Concourse! Be not astonished at the
>handiwork of God, the mercy of God and His blessings upon you, if you are
>of those who are informed. [8] Fear God! and know that the handiwork of God
>radiates forth in the image[s?] of the Lamp of Eternality among the
>artistry of the people. How is
>it that you neither consider this nor bear witness unto it?'
>
>                                   [XI]
>
>        [1]  Then Ah! Alas! By He Who hath restrained the dove of sorrow in
>the breast of al-Baha' [Baha'u'llah]! [2] All that I have witnessed from
>the day on which I first drank the pure milk from the breast of My mother
>until this moment hath been effaced from my memory in consequence of that
>which the
>hands of the people have committed. [3] And God is aware of all that
>pertains to the people though they are not informed.
>
>        [4] Say: `O People of the Realm of the Divine Cloud! Issue forth
>from your habitations and present yourselves in the sanctum of Light, the
>manifest Divine Cloud, the most-great House of God, as hath been decreed,
>with the permission of God, the Exalted Who beareth witness, in the Tablet
>of
>the Heart.'
>
>                                  [XII]
>
>        [1] I, verily, conclude this discourse in that the Dove of Light
>sang forth aforetime at the moment of its [His] arrival in the Land of
>Exhilaration and warbled with the accents of the heart. [2] And you know, O
>my beloved, that, for the sake of God, I desired authorization since
>patience, on account of my love for the unveiled beauty of God, had
>departed from me. [3] And you know that a son of adultery wilfully desired
>to shed My blood. [4] Nay, by the presence of Thy Might! I do not pledge
>allegiance unto him, either in secret or publicly. [5] It is God alone Who
>causeth the day of the spilling of My blood to draw
>nigh and when My tears shall be sprinkled upon the dust.[6] So, O would
>that this My day were the day of the shedding of my blood, for my ardent
>desire is for the soil. [7] So praised be God, One Worthy of Praise and
>Mighty, above that which the associators assert with respect to His
>description. And praise be to God, Wondrous Lord of all the Worlds.
>
>
>                                * * * * * *
>
>
>
>Stephen N. Lambden
>44 Queens Road, Jesmond,
>Newcastle upon Tyne, NE2 2PQ
>England. U.K.
>
>Voice/Fax. +44 [0] 191. 2818597
>Email S.N.Lambden@ncl.ac.uk
>
>
>
>

 To tread the path of Love                Alma Engels
          Is no mere game.                alma@indirect.com
          For only one
          Out of many thousands
          Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:43:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: story of "Poetics Today"



The story of my article, "`I am all the Prophets:' The Poetics of
Pluralism in Baha'i Texts," is as follows.

Around 1989, Israel Gershoni and Ehud Toledano of Tel Aviv University,
wrote me to ask me to participate in a conference there, co-sponsored by
both the Porter Institute for Semiotics (which publishes *Poetics Today*)
and the Middle East Center.  I have not met Ehud, though I think very
highly of his scholarship (he has written on the abolition of slavery in
the Ottoman Empire); I have met Israel and he is a wonderful person; his
specialty is early 20th century Egyptian nationalism.

The conference was scheduled for mid-December 1990 if I am not mistaken. I
wrote back and said I could not come to a conference scheduled at
U-Michigan's exam time, but would be glad to send a paper, and I proposed
this one.  (I have very strong scruples about putting teaching first, and
while missing a week of classes for a conference can sometimes be
justified if it is absolutely necessary and suitable films or other
substitute materials are available, I would not feel right running out on
the kids just before and during the Final.  In addition, the World Centre
has been known to be concerned about Baha'i academics coming to Israel
secular purposes, and I did not want to get into all that).

The conference organizers graciously accepted my offer of this paper on
Baha'u'llah's Writings, though they continued to implore me to come
personally to deliver it.  I suggested that they instead invite Dr. Vahid
Rafati over from the Haifa Baha'i Research Department to give the paper.
They took up the suggestion, and  Vahid kindly agreed.

I only know second hand what happened, but apparently after Vahid
summarized the paper he took questions, and the meeting turned into an
academic fireside for the Middle East specialists (large numbers were
professors from American institutions). This is important because Middle
East specialists are often asked about the Faith because of their
geographical specialization, but seldom know much about it because of the
lack of an academic literature on it they can trust. As an active
contributor to the field and visible member of the Middle East Studies
Association, I'm known to them.  Then the paper came out in a special
edition of *Poetics Today* devoted to Middle East topics
(the journal usually specializes in literary criticism of Western works).

As a postscript, one of my colleagues here at U-M went to the
conference.  On the plane, she was sitting and reading my paper,
preparing for the discussion.  It turns out a Baha'i was sitting next to
her, and was amazed to see the subject of the paper.  The Baha'i had done
research on the Faith in Turkey and was thinking of an academic career.
The two got to talking (my colleague is Turkish).  I then received a
request from the Baha'i for a copy of the paper, and since have had the
chance to encourage her in her academic plans.  So this paper was the
catalyst for a number of things.

If we exclude Babi studies per se, and speak of studies on the *Baha'i*
Faith in mainstream academic journals, this piece is one of perhaps three
or four in the past 7 years.


cheers   Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan





=END=


Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 10:54:23 +0000 (MULTINET_TIMEZONE)
From: maeissin@ichange.com (Michael Eissinger)
To: gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu
Cc: nineteen@onramp.net, talisman@indiana.edu

Brent wrote...
"1. There was a professionally produced film of 'Abdu'l-Baha walking
outside of the Hotel Ansonia in NYC for viewing in the movie houses.  It
is referred to in Star of the West.  No known copies are extant
according
to the US Baha'i Archivist.  This is not the same film as taken in
Brooklyn beginning with the Master arriving in an old car, and shaking
hands with many people.

2. Hand of the Cause Sears was twice on the Ed Sullivan Show with his
"In
the Park" crew (back in the 50's? -- Marguerite Sears has some idea of
the
dates).  She thinks that those shows were probably not recorded -- most
were not; however she wants to check out the possibility and locate the
recordings if available.

" ([G. Brent Poirier])

I have checked here at the UCLA film archives and either they don't have
 any of this material, although they do have a clean copy of "Daughter
of the Jungle" and he original trailer, or they don't have any of it
cataloged in such as fashion that they can find them.

Michael Eissinger
Los Angeles



=END=


From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:59:13 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Sinaic Imagery

Well, I guess now we can understand why most of the mystical and poetic works
of Baha'u'llah have not yet been rendered in an official translation.  It
seems that we in the West are not yet culturally equipped to handle them.
    There is no question that the central image of virtually all Sufi
mystical poetry concerns the longing of the lover for the Beloved, the search
for the Beloved, gazing on the Beloved's face, union with the Beloved, etc.,
etc.  And here is not intended some intellectual or Platonic lover.  This is
full-bodied, erotic and sexual love that these mystics were talking
about--and even the most delicate translation will have to make this clear to
be true to the original.    Some of the most beautiful poetry that
Baha'u'llah has revealed falls into this genre, and consequently has been
more or less suppressed in translation.  And perhaps with good reason.
    With our Protestant backgrounds, we are simply not culturally equiped to
even contemplate our sexuality as essentially spiritual at its base.  The
idea that the sexual act may be the best metaphor available to describe the
ecstatic (even the orgasmic) relationship between God and the believer
strikes us as blasphemous.  Why, I wonder?  Why should human sexuality be any
more inappropriate a metaphor for this relationship than anything else?
 Sorry, I just don't understand.
    Anyway, there is no doubt whatever that in dozens of places Baha'u'llah
describes his relationship with the Maid of Heaven in explicitly sexual
terms--not only in terms of sexual intercourse, but in terms of sexual
longing, deprivation, erotic gaze, and so forth.  Sometimes the image is
reversed, and He is the Maid of Heaven, calling to the beloveds and inviting
them to his chamber.  (These images are indeed ecstatic, as Terry has
repeatedly reminded us and found out for himself--staying up all night,
indeed!  We know what you were doing all night, Terry!  and I don't mean
platonic contemplation.)  These are some of the most powerful images revealed
by the Holy Pen, and they do indeed have the ability to catapult the reader
into helpless ecstacy.  But, maybe we in the West just can't handle it yet.

Warmest,
Tony



=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:41:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Casino" and the Failed Protagonist
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Talisman" 

"Casino and the Failed Protagonist"



"Casino", Martin Scorsese's most recent artist effort, must be classed as
his most relentlessly honest offering to date.  The various orgies of
violence, patterns of betrayal, sexual intrigues and duplicity leave the
viewer devastated by the end of three hours of unremitting horror.  Truth
is the greatest horror and Scorsese is no niggard.  Nothing is left to
the imagination, all human decency is stripped away- only a grim moral
satire of pure human savagery remains.

 As a work of art, "Casino", in my humble estimate, must be considered as
his greatest work, so far.  Its subtlety, thematic richness, filmic
audacity, and artistic fearlessness launch it into an orbit along with
Vittorio De Sica's immortal "The Bicycle Thief" (1949),  Orson Welles
archetypal  "Citizen Kane" (1941), and Frederico Fellini's captivating
"La Strada" (1954).  Scorsese joins these masters of the modern cinema in
a discussion of contemporary "Tragedy" and paints upon the filmic canvas
an illuminatti's depiction of the timeless motif--the failed
protagonist--in the post-modern context revolving around the nadir of
moral collapse.

It is in this setting of depravity that we find the protagonist, played
with absolute conviction, by Robert De Niro.  De Niro is a gambler, Par
Exellence, who is hired to run a casino because he is a river of money to
his bosses and his reputation is beyond reproach in gambling circles.
Every day he methodically examines every working of the gambling house,
and scrutinizes with great casino insight, dealer, and player alike.

"Casino" is set in Las Vegas and is another collaboration between
Nicholas Pileggi and Martin Scorsese.  Peleggi, sometime mobster, and
author of "Wiseguy" has become Scorsese's Mario Puzzo, in effect.

Through this collaboration Scorsese has produced another anti-allegory of
the life of Christ and a return to his Leit Motif, the failed
protagonist.  Joe Pesci provides us with another superlative performance
that can only be characterized as a chilling Tour de Force.  Pesci plays
Judas to De Niro's Christ;  while the ravishing, Susan Stone, gives a
magnificent portrayal as an ex-prostitute, in the role of  De Niro's
wife, and the symbol of Mary Magdalene in the allegory.  Scorsese turns
the life of Christ on its head and explores the question of "integrity"
as it applies to sinners of the worst sort.

De Niro's unshakable gambling integrity is the moral focus of the film.
And De Niro is the protagonist.  He comes into conflict with the civil
authorities or forces outside the Casino.  He stands on principle
relative to his gambling world and jousts with the windmills in a
Quixotic display that places him in great danger with his overlords. De
Niro's Character is not on a level with the great failed protagonist, Don
Quixote de la Mancha, but the parallels are obvious.

One's initial reaction to this film is likely to be a sense of nihilism
and Sartrean existenialism.  The film does evoke a "viscuous" sense of
reality.  But upon further reflection one sees the film-maker's structure
and his notion of a cinematic universe.  No benevolent indifference here!
 Rather we see the post-modern sensibilities of a truely great artist and
perhaps the only practicing genius in the Cinema today.  This film is
obviously not for everyone, but, for those who fancy a scary ride on the
morality rollercoaster, this is a must see.

Ricahrd

Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:44:12 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Browne and the Baha'i Faith

Sorry, guys, but I am serval days behind in my Talisman reading.  You all
certainly can fill up a man's computer with messages--50 and 60 a day!  Isn't
that going over the edge a bit?
   Anyway, I am really out of my depth when discussing Browne's work and his
publication of Naqtatu'l-Kaf, etc.  After all, I am an African historian, and
lately African-American.  But, really!, reducing him and his work to just
being and agent of the British government is too ludicrous to even deserve a
reply.
   I wish that Juan or John would take an interest in this thread.  I am sure
that they have more to say on the subject than I do.  But, I do not see how
any scholarly discussion of these subjects can go forward without reference
to Denis MacEoin's impressive treatment of them in his book SOURCES FOR EARLY
BABI DOCTRINE AND HISTORY put out by Brill.  (Actually, this is the book that
Kalimat Press wanted to publish, without the snide asides, but wasn't allowed
to.)  Anyway, I found MacEoin's discussions of the provenance of
Naqtatu'l-Kaf quite compelling.  It is clearly not a forgery, in the usual
sense of the word.  But also, NOT the history of Mirza Jani.  There are other
alternatives, however, and it was used usefully by Abbas Amanat in his
history of the early Babi years.
    Anyway, maybe I had better beat a hasty retreat from this battlefield,
having exhausted the one stone in my slingshot.  I do hope that we can
continue the discussion, however, since it remains central to questions of
the integrity of Baha'i scholarship--at least in Islamic Studies circles.

Warmest,
Tony



=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:09:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram 
To: Juan R Cole 
Cc: Loni Bramson-Lerche , Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Biological sexes

This analogy model -- that male and female sexual organs were essentially
the same but one was an 'outie' and the other an 'innie' --is of course
why it was thought that women could not get pregnant without an orgasm.
Both male and female had to ejaculate to conceive.  The discovery of the
ovum in the period transtioning between the renaissance and the
enlightenment was very influential in leading to the passive
conceptualization of female sexuality.  The organs are
 in origin the same; they develop as female unless a 'switch' is pulled
hormonally to make them develop as male.  The point I was emphasizing is
that division into sexes is irrelevant in any context other than
reproduction and there are two sexes in that context.   Those two sexes
are produced by having a female default form and a male variant form.

Jackson



=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:06:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters 
To: talisman 
Subject: Sexual Imagery

Well. I don't quite know how to begin this note, I'm still a bit shaken.
Brent's and Tony's comments are just a fraction of what I've been
discussing with people on the topic lately.

I have full sympathy with both sides of this discussion, I see full well
why Brent should be concerned about such imagery, yet I also understand
that it *is* integral both to Sufi thought and to Baha'u'llah's writings.
I have been putting a lot of thought into the issue of the erotic in
Baha'u'llah's mysticism, because I am doing a paper on it for school, and
now I'm beginning to see just where the constraints of "wisdom" lie.

Let me insert here a snippet of a letter I recently received, names
removed. There is a small (10 members or so) mailing list amongst the ABS
members at my university, and I sent to this list some of the translations
that have been posted publicly on Talisman. My thoughts follow the snip.


Dear Baha'i Friends,

After prayerful meditation, I wish to express deep concern over the files
that were forwarded, in good faith, to each of us, particularly the file
  Whenever we get hold of any scholarly attempts
to analyse the Holy Writings of Baha'u'llah we must remind ourselves of our
responsibility to independently weigh the material, to the best of our
abilities, as to whether it's contents are in conformity with the principles
and teachings of the Faith.  We have been provided with Divinely appointed
individuals and designed institutions for the task of authoritatively
translating the Holy Writings as seen befitting and timely. It is a delicate
and potentially dangerous line to cross for any individual to distribute
unauthorized translations, particularly when the exact source of that text
is unknown, when this unknown text is associated with the activities of a
known Covenant breaker, (ie: Mirza Aqa Jan) and when the individual who has
translated this text has not elaborately indicated in every instance that
the translation is his own and that a copy has been sent for review
to the appropriate Institutions.

I do not pretend to know the details of this or any other attempt at Baha'i
scholarship.  I offer only my humble understanding of standards of the Faith
which I love, and I hope you will receive my concerns.  Should anyone feel
that I have overstepped any bounds, wish to inform me of a point I have mis-
represented or to respond to what I have expressed with heartfelt intention,
please do not hesitate to write to me at the above address.  May our prayers
be directed for the continuing guidance and protection of every endeavour
in our Blessed Faith.


I included this note because I see where the author is coming from and
what the author's concerns are, and I fully agree that the author's
concerns are, up to a point, justified. But somehow it still leaves me
feeling uneasy.

I find Tony's comments to be correct, if a bit reactionary. As meaningful
as these writings may be to some of us, perhaps it isn't a side of Faith
that should be exposed yet. I find this saddening, if but for no other
reason that, for example, when Baha'i ask me what exactly I'm writing on,
I just mumble something about "certain aspects of Baha'u'llah's writings
mumble mumble," because I don't feel comforatble telling them that these
writings exist and that I'm studying them. I most certainly don't want to be
too forward with this issue, I don't want to take the stance of "He wrote
it and I'm going to tell you about it," but neither am I comfortable
*hiding* it. Ah, what to do?

-Jonah




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:05:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: Robert Parry 
Cc: "[G. Brent Poirier]" ,
        Talisman 
Subject: Re: In John's defense (Re: Sinaic Imagery)

Sorry, I meant to say 'get yourself a copy of Rudolf Otto's _Idea of the
Holy_, Mircea Eliade's_The Sacred and the Profane_...'

Nima

**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit  *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth    *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning.                 *
*                                                            *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg     *
*   and Wilhelm Dilthey                                      *
**************************************************************




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:49:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Sinaic Imagery
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: , "Talisman" 

>    With our Protestant backgrounds, we are simply not culturally equiped to
>even contemplate our sexuality as essentially spiritual at its base


Great Post Tony, but I believe the word is "Mature" enough for our
evident sydrome, rather than cultural equipment.  Not all of us are
ex-protestants.  I am a former Catholic and the Modonna and other relics
of pagan phallic whorship remain in that religion.  Only the protestants
goaded on by Luther's Germanic father fixation deserted the femine half
of Christianity.  The eastern orthodox rebels prefered to think in terms
of the mother.

Baha'u'llah's poetry may indeed be rated R forn the children of the
occident.  I can't be a judge of that.  It is not suprising that
attraction and reproduction can be a motif  in the poetry of Baha'u'llah,
since in some sense, this is at the heart of all existence--but His Word
is not a plaything for the uninformed and this may be at the back of it
all.

Richard



Richard

Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:11:46 -0800
To: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden), talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: prosperity statement

Dear Bev,

I don't have it on my computer, unfortunately, but it is out there somewhere
as my first copy was a photocopy of an email --- though the transmisson
split the paragraphs into more than the printed copy.

If no one has responded in a couple of days I would be happy to snail mail
it to you if you send me your address.

Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives."  JB

>Dear Friends:
>
>I have not seen this statement.  Is there any way someone could either email
>a copy, or send one snail mail?  Don and I would greatly appreciate it.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bev.




=END=


Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:32:38 -0800
To: "Stephen R. Friberg" , tan1@cornell.edu,
        talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)

Dear Stephen et al,

Concerning the destructive forces unleashed by the war on poverty, etc., I
just heard
that the public schools in Redding, California have issued a plea to the
community.

They need people to sign up for the *free lunch program* because they have
fallen
short of the number needed to receive state money for a *reading program*.  They
asked for *anybody* who can qualify to sign up their kids, though they don't
need to
use the lunch program --- and, of course, it is all confidential.

Only in the screwed up politics of today's America could a *reading Program* be
dependant on a *free lunch program*.

Perhaps we now know why the Democrats were saying the Republicans would
*starve* children when the Republicans actually were offering more money ---
but the
Republican plan would have ended the Federal control that brings about the
stupidity described above.

Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives."   JB




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:45:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Biological sexes
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Jackson Armstrong-Ingram" ,
        "Juan Cole" 
Cc: "Loni Bramson-Lerche" ,
        "Talisman" 

>This analogy model -- that male and female sexual organs were essentially
>the same but one was an 'outie' and the other an 'innie' --is of course
>why it was thought that women could not get pregnant without an orgasm.
>Both male and female had to ejaculate to conceive.  The discovery of the
>ovum in the period transtioning between the renaissance and the
>enlightenment was very influential in leading to the passive
>conceptualization of female sexuality.  The organs are
> in origin the same; they develop as female unless a 'switch' is pulled
>hormonally to make them develop as male.  The point I was emphasizing is
>that division into sexes is irrelevant in any context other than
>reproduction and there are two sexes in that context.   Those two sexes
>are produced by having a female default form and a male variant form.


Okay.

Richard

Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:39:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Surah of the Blood:  Comentary Verse I
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Talisman" , "Juan Cole" 

Dear Friends,

I will be forever greatful to Professor Cole for sharing his provisional
translation of Baha'u'llah's  "Surah of the Blood".  It is one of the
amazing perks that comes with communicating in this esteemed forum.  With
that said,  I would like to take this opportunity to offer a personal
rather than academic commentary on the first verse and limit that
commentary to the passage:

> Be at all times a wronged
>one, for this is one of My attributes, though none but the sincere are
>aware of it.  Verily, the sighs of patience uttered by one wronged are
>more precious to God than any other deed, did ye but know.
>Therefore, be patient in the face of whatever befalleth thee, and set thy
>trust in thy Lord God in all thine affairs.  He, verily, doth suffice thee
>against all the harm which any created thing can wreak toward thee,
>and preserveth thee in the shelter of His Cause and the mighty fortress
>of His guardianship.  There is no God but Him.  His are the worlds of
>creation and command, and all seek His aid.

I must admit this passage blew through my soul like a mighty wind and
dispersed the clouds of gloom that blocked my vision.

I had never before known why Baha'u'llah characterized himself as "This
Wronged One".  I hate to say this but one Baha'i remarked to me that
Baha'u'llah was always  "Bellyaching" in that fashion.  How truely
wayward a statement!  Baha'u'llah in this passage has openned the door
for me from the "Prison of Self" and I see a light from His Word shinning
in the darkness of my struggle.  He has offerred an enlightened solace to
all of those groaning under the hand of the oppressor.  And given meaning
to injustice in the world.

Richard


Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:27:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green 
To: Jonah Winters 
Cc: talisman 
Subject: Re: Sexual Imagery

On Thu, 1 Feb 1996, Jonah Winters wrote:

> Well. I don't quite know how to begin this note, I'm still a bit shaken.
> Brent's and Tony's comments are just a fraction of what I've been
> discussing with people on the topic lately.

Here is you only hope :-) and you know it :-)>
 I don't want to take the stance of "He wrote
> it and I'm going to tell you about it," but neither am I comfortable
> *hiding* it. Ah, what to do?
>
> -Jonah
>

		      ------------------------------------------------
                     |  "O SON OF SPIRIT!                             |
Robert Green         |     My first counsel is this: Possess a pure,  |
rlg0001              |     kindly and radiant heart, that thine may   |
@jove.acs.unt.edu    |     be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable     |
                     |     and everlasting."  -  Baha'u'llah          |
                      ------------------------------------------------




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 14:56:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger 
To: Michael Eissinger 
Cc: gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu, nineteen@onramp.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Film of Abdu'l-Baha




> "1. There was a professionally produced film of 'Abdu'l-Baha walking
> outside of the Hotel Ansonia in NYC for viewing in the movie houses.  It
> is referred to in Star of the West.  No known copies are extant
> according

I tried to track this down a couple of years ago.  It was taken for a
segment a newreel (the news footage that used to be shown in theatres
between films).  I was able to identify only one newsreel company that
operated in the US then and for which there are still films extant.  I have
forgotten the name, but it was a British company, and the rights for the
films are held by a company with headquarters in Chicago.  At any rate,
this company has an segment-level index to the newsfootage in their
archvies, including outtakes; they have lots of footage of the Hotel
Ansonia, but none with Abdu'l-Baha.

For those with the time and inclination to continue the search, a good
starting point would be *Footage 91*.  There is a printed version of this
that provides information about the holdings of all the major public and
private film repositories; but the CD ROM versions, includes the internal
indexes and catalogues from many of these institutions.  So, someone with
access to this, could search through the holdings of various stock footage
companies and the major film repositories in the US.

Happy searching.

Richard




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:38:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green 
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" 
Subject: firesides/The Return of Christ (fwd)



		      ------------------------------------------------
                     |  "O SON OF SPIRIT!                             |
Robert Green         |     My first counsel is this: Possess a pure,  |
rlg0001              |     kindly and radiant heart, that thine may   |
@jove.acs.unt.edu    |     be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable     |
                     |     and everlasting."  -  Baha'u'llah          |
                      ------------------------------------------------

--------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 22:24:35 -0600

Many of you may have read the announcement on the calendar of events that
this sunday dr. bayat will give a talk in pt. arthur, texas on Baha'u'lla'h
The Return of Christ.  What you don't know is the outstanding job a small
number of Bahai friends have done to make this program a reality in a strong
Bible belt
area.  For nearly 12 weeks now even weekend small teams of friends would hit
the streets going door to door and handing out information on the Bahai Faith.

After the Youth Conference one of the new Bahais, Russell Menard, was so on
fire with the love of Baha'u'lla'h that he became the focal point of the
teaching effort.  Russell arranged for a meeting place and handled all the
publicity for the program, but then he took a truely dramatic step forward.
He has been calling all the priest and ministers listed in the phone book
and informing them of the public meeting and the subject matter.  One
minister even agreeded to attend a fireside.

I wanted to share with all of you how excited we are over this effort and to
invite all of you once again to attend, but if you can't please !!!!!!!!!!!
say a prayer for our success this Sunday.

this was andrenea
Andrenea M. King




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:52:49 -0800
To: "Stephen R. Friberg" , tan1@cornell.edu,
        talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia

Dear Stepehn et al,

I posted to quickly a minute ago --- I forgot to put the subject and forgot
to add this:

What the Redding school system is doing in effect is *recruiting* to
increase those who receive government aid.  Some way to help people to
achieve self sufficiency!

What can you do?  Hey, if I wasn't a Baha'i I'd be a hermit!

Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives."  JB




=END=


From: "Eric D. Pierce" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date:          Thu, 1 Feb 1996 12:49:04 PST8PDT
Subject:       Bev+Don/Doug, Re: prosperity statement

Hi,

I have a slightly weird looking ecopy that was an
extract from a WWW page (I think). It doesn't have
the signature line from the Universal House of
Justice or the BWC Research Office on it, and
some of the page and paragraph numbering notations
look funny. The actual text content is probably
near 100% accurate.

It is a big file (58Kb), so let me know if you
want it in attached zip (and/or UUENCODED) format,
or in 3-4 chunks of regular text.

(sorry for the technobabble if you don't know)

EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)

> Date sent:      Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:11:46 -0800
> To:             dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden), talisman@indiana.edu
> From:           nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
> Subject:        Re: prosperity statement

> Dear Bev,
>
> I don't have it on my computer, unfortunately, but it is out there somewhere
> as my first copy was a photocopy of an email --- though the transmisson
> split the paragraphs into more than the printed copy.
>
> If no one has responded in a couple of days I would be happy to snail mail
> it to you if you send me your address.
>
> Doug Myers
> nightbrd@humboldt1.com
> "Nothing survives but the way we live our lives."  JB
>
> >Dear Friends:
> >
> >I have not seen this statement.  Is there any way someone could either email
> >a copy, or send one snail mail?  Don and I would greatly appreciate it.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Bev.
>



=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 96 09:47 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall 
Subject: Paper on the boundaries of internal discourse

From Baha'i International News Service (BINS) #354:

UNITED KINGDOM

Conference Characterized By Scholarly Rigour, Open-Mindedness, Warmth

A joint gathering of the eighth `Irfan Colloquium and the Religious Studies
Seminar of the Association for Baha'i Studies of English-speaking Europe was
held at Newcastle University from 8 to 10 December. The `Irfan Colloquium is
sponsored by the Haj Mihdi Arjmand Memorial Fund and the Institute for
Baha'i Studies (Wilmette, Illinois, U.S.A.).

The theme of the conference was attacks on, and criticisms of, the Baha'i
Faith and ways of responding to them. Forty-five people participated in the
meeting which was characterized by its scholarly rigour, open-mindedness,
and warmth.

Papers were presented by Dr. Iraj Ayman, Dr. Robert Stockman, Dr. Udo
Schaefer, Dr. Moojan Momen, Dr. Margit Warburg, Dr. Kamran Ekbal, Dr.
Nichola Towfiq, Dr. Khazeh Fananapazir, Mr. Stephen Lambden and Mrs. Lil
Abdo.

Among the reviews of past attacks on the Faith were discussions of the
position of Mirza Yahya.

Another topic which was presented was Mirza Abu'l-Fadl's replies to
arguments made against the Teachings.

Recent_attacks_on_the_Faith_were_addressed_in_papers on Islamic laws which
have been used to support persecution of Baha'is; on the rebuttal published
in October in Germany to a book written by a Covenant-breaker; and on_an_
exploration_of_the_boundaries_of_internal_discourse_within_the_Baha'i_
community.

One other presentation was made during the conference. A biographical sketch
of Haj Mihdi Arjmand, a scholar-teacher of the Baha'i Faith, was given, and
a few of the Tablets of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha to him were summarized.

[Report from an individual received 17 December]

--------------------------------

Not sure I like the way an exploration of the boundaries of discourse within
the Baha'i community is equated with addressing recent attacks on the Faith,
but it sounds like this paper might be pertinent to the issues faced by
Talisman and other Baha'i-related discussion groups. Has anyone got more
details about it?

ka kite ano,
Steve

--------------------------------------------------------------
                  Alison and Steve Marshall
                 Email:  forumbahai@es.co.nz
 90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------




=END=


[end of 2/1/96 session]





Talisman emails received 2/2/96-2/5/96
---------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 05:08:00 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein" 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, "Loni Bramson-Lerche" 
Subject: RE: Biological sexes

Thanks. This is fascinating. I just finished reading Brain Sex by Anne Moir
and David Jessel (Dell Publishing, 1992). I haven't the proper background or
training, however, to objectively evaluate such works.

As a child, my male development was very slow and it caused my parents
considerable confusion and frequent rage. Just after my 17th birthday I ran
away from home and never saw them again. In spite of apparently very low
testosterone I nonetheless fathered three children. It seems like a miracle to
me but they're very beautiful and all grown up now, thank God.

I don't feel comfortable with labeling myself at this time but in a year or
so, I will probably be okay with that.

I'd like very much to be kept informed of the progress of your research if
that's convenient for you. It wasn't until I reconciled my gender issues with
my Baha'i beliefs that I was able to move toward healing and transformation.
If I hadn't joined Talisman, that would never have occurred.

Hannah
The Artist Formerly Known As Cary :-)
=========
"The secret of the universe is that it is never too late to have a happy
childhood." -- Bloom County

----------
From: 	owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Loni Bramson-Lerche
Sent: 	Wednesday, 31 January, 1996 10:03 AM
To: 	Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 	Biological sexes

Ms. Reinstein,

I am still researching and thinking about the question of
biological sex and gender, but I can give you a bit more
information on the theory that there are more than two
biological sexes.  Unfortunately, I do not have much time
and can only provide a very brief summary, which I hope will
not distort the issues involved.




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 05:11:07 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein" 
To: "Talisman" ,
        "Steven Scholl"
	<73613.2712@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Jim Nelson Update

Worked for me!

The Artist Formerly Known As Cary 

----------
From: 	owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Steven Scholl
Sent: 	Wednesday, 31 January, 1996 10:36 AM
To: 	Talisman
Subject: 	Jim Nelson Update

...very encouraging though the road ahead will be difficult. Jim's spirits are
up
and he is taking things in stride. He joked that the hormone therapy might
help
him get in touch with his feminine side.



=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 05:54:34 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein" 
To: "Talisman list - MSNINET" 
Subject: Them Dancin' Feet

It's wondrous and refreshing that this list permits levity along with the
frequently brilliant essays that characterize it. A thousand thanks.

Newbies on Talisman: I maintain a large humor mailing list. Some of the humor
pokes fun at the world's best targets: my esteemed employer, politicians,
computers, etc. and some of it is just silly. If you wish to join it, send me
private email.

Hannah
============================
"My life has been one great big joke,
A dance that's walked
A song that's spoke,
I laugh so hard I almost choke
When I think about myself."

Maya Angelou (b. 1928), U.S. author. Just Give Me a Cool Drink of Water
'fore I Die, "When I Think about Myself" (1971).


The Artist Formerly Known As Cary 



=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 04:15:09 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein" 
To: "Arsalan J. Sadighi" ,
        "Burl Barer" 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Dear Burl Column

Your post absolutely deserves the Talisman equivalent of a Grammy or Pulitzer
Prize. I laughed so hard that my sides ached. By all means, keep this column
going!

Incidentally, I keep trying to find ways to use the words that I'm learning
here in my own books. But my editor says that I can't call Netscape jejune.
Darn :-(

Hannah
The Artist Formerly Known As Cary :-)
============
veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I stuck around

----------
From: 	owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Burl Barer
Sent: 	Tuesday, 30 January, 1996 19:46 PM
To: 	Arsalan J. Sadighi
Cc: 	talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 	Re: Dear Burl Column

Dear Burl,

>Why is it that I can not find some of the words used in Talisman even in my
>'BIG' dictionary? I feel so stupid for not getting half the things said
>around here. Do you think I should go back to school and get an education or
>should I drop out of Talisman and get a life?
>
>Miserably yours,
>
>Anonymous

   Dear Anonymous:

        Allow me to set your little mind at ease.  Sometimes when we feel
stupid, we need a reality check. That's why you wisely turned to Mr. Burl,
who informs you that the reason you feel stupid is because you are, relative
to the impotentarian erudentured elite, stupid as a pound of plankton. So
are those BIG stupid dictionaries. You need Mr. Burl's new book "The
Complete Guide to Obscure Words Used on Talisman" forthcoming from
Jungian/Restless Press.  It features a special introduction by K. Paul
Johnson entitled "Words Theosophists Know That You Don't" and a concise
addenda by Bruce Burrell,"Words with no Absolute Meaning," plus a charted
historical mapping of Juan Ricardo Cole's favorite adjectives "Social
Democracy: Building a Liberal Vocabulary," excerpts from Linda Walbridg's
essay "Miffed at the Mufti: Islam and Feminist Rage,"  Derek Cockshut's
anti-intellectual essay, "Divine Economy: Jesus Saves, Moses Invests,
Mohammad Withholds Interest, and Baha'u'llah pays 9%," and a handy phrase by
phrase translation of often used terms, for example:

1. "I am entertaining a neo-platonic construct" = "I have started dating a
Stevedore, but we are just friends."

 As for getting a life -- forget it, it is too late. No one else on Talisman
has one, except in theory, and all theories are subject to revision.

 Warmest regards,

  Mr. Burl

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from  Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************





=END=


From: "Eric D. Pierce" 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date:          Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:41:42 PST8PDT
Subject:       Re: Sinaic Imagery/ sexual mental health and spirituality?

Hi,

I am not weighing in on the central Brent vs. John issue
from a "theological" standpoint, but wanted to support
the idea that imposing culturally conditioned notions of
sexuality on Baha'i mysticism seems a bit ethnocentric, or
at the least possibly limits greater understanding of the
original intent/context of the relevant texts.

Given that it is unlikely that current cultural norms in a
given country/culture are going to represent an enlightened
(spiritually evolved) global perspective on sexual imagery
in mysticism, why not simply acknowledge the existence in
the writings of erotic imagery relating to mysticim (as an
*intermediate step*), while noting the limitations and/or
perversity of current/prevailing cultural conditions? Since
dealing with sexual-spiritual topics is such a potential
mine field of explosive taboos (similar to problems addressing
psychic-healing phenomena in a Baha'i context), much
foundation scholarship and "cultural evolution" may have to
take place before the masses can benefit from this area of
investigation.

On the other hand, perhaps it would be useful if there was some
thought put into why this area is important for the development
of scholarship and for purposes of mass consumption, and then
maybe the appropriate principles could be brought to light, and
productive consultation could take place. Getting a workable
set of definitions and concepts of sexuality in a Baha'i context
would help, otherwise there may end up being inevitable
complaints that the cart is in front of the horse here.

I would suggest that there are some important issues relating
to individual spiritual development and sexual "mental health"
(is chastity it?) that might be immediately applicable in order
to facilitate an increased release of spiritual potential and
resulting sense of individual fulfillment.

EP

> From:           Member1700@aol.com
> Date sent:      Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:59:13 -0500
> To:             Talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject:        Re: Sinaic Imagery

> Well, I guess now we can understand why most of the mystical and poetic works
> of Baha'u'llah have not yet been rendered in an official translation.  It
> seems that we in the West are not yet culturally equipped to handle them.
>     There is no question that the central image of virtually all Sufi
> mystical poetry concerns the longing of the lover for the Beloved, the search
> for the Beloved, gazing on the Beloved's face, union with the Beloved, etc.,
> etc.  And here is not intended some intellectual or Platonic lover.  This is
> full-bodied, erotic and sexual love that these mystics were talking
> about--and even the most delicate translation will have to make this clear to
> be true to the original.    Some of the most beautiful poetry that
> Baha'u'llah has revealed falls into this genre, and consequently has been
> more or less suppressed in translation.  And perhaps with good reason.
>     With our Protestant backgrounds, we are simply not culturally equiped to
> even contemplate our sexuality as essentially spiritual at its base.  The
> idea that the sexual act may be the best metaphor available to describe the
> ecstatic (even the orgasmic) relationship between God and the believer
> strikes us as blasphemous.  Why, I wonder?  Why should human sexuality be any
> more inappropriate a metaphor for this relationship than anything else?
>  Sorry, I just don't understand.
>     Anyway, there is no doubt whatever that in dozens of places Baha'u'llah
> describes his relationship with the Maid of Heaven in explicitly sexual
> terms--not only in terms of sexual intercourse, but in terms of sexual
> longing, deprivation, erotic gaze, and so forth.  Sometimes the image is
> reversed, and He is the Maid of Heaven, calling to the beloveds and inviting
> them to his chamber.  (These images are indeed ecstatic, as Terry has
> repeatedly reminded us and found out for himself--staying up all night,
> indeed!  We know what you were doing all night, Terry!  and I don't mean
> platonic contemplation.)  These are some of the most powerful images revealed
> by the Holy Pen, and they do indeed have the ability to catapult the reader
> into helpless ecstacy.  But, maybe we in the West just can't handle it yet.
>
> Warmest,
> Tony
>



=END=


From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:18:35 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Sinaic Imagery

Dear friends,

It is the nature of revelation to use metaphor, allegory and parable in order
to express Eternal Truth and Reality in terms which which inhabitants of the
physical world can understand.

And there is no doubt that the male sex drive, with its derivatives of
territoriality and dominance, is a prime motivator in human affairs, Some
(WARNING--INFLAMMATORY TERM)  sociobiologists have suggested that most
institutions today are structured to mirror male dominance rituals, power
acquisition and maintenance, gatekeeping functions etc.

Therefore, it is not surprising to see imagery of male sexuality used as a
vehicle to express the power and wonder of the act of approaching the
Manifestation--or the God Head by historically primarily male mystic
movements.

However, I wonder how well this imagery resonates with the other half of
humanity. Regarding women's sex drive, many branches of the women's movement
have suggested that it is significantly different, being concerned with
establishing relationships, commitment, and is procreative.  And again, let
me say, (cf Juan's post on a historical model of women as inverted men) that
phylogenetically, the human embryo is female before the male hormones are
activated.

The global exploitation of women and children of both sexes as prostitutes,
the terrible testimony of the pathetic "comfort women" who were enslaved to
sexually service Japanese troops during World War Two, the indescribable
Bosnian war atrocities involving rape as a weapon of surpression and
genocide, the high divorce rate, the high number of poverty line households
with single female parents, the trivilization of women as sexual ornaments,
worthless past their early youth ---these current world conditions do not
pursuade me that male sexuality is necessarily a desirable paradigm to
approach our beloved Faith with.

My daughter's teen magazine, Sassy, had a little article on "When he says he
loves you forever, how long is forever for your boyfriend?"  Choices were one
week, two weeks,  a month, two months.

How long is forever for our relationship with Baha'u'llah?  If it's based on
the fickle male sex drive, I'd say its pretty short.

I'll use another metaphor myself, thanks.

Respectfully,
Sandy









=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:51:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 10 Favorite Films
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Talisman" 

1.  2001:  A SPACE ODYSSEY--Stanley Kubrick
2.  Paths of Glory--Stanley Kubrick
3.  The Last Temptation of Christ--Martin Scorsese
4.  The Godfather Trilogy: 1901-1980--Francis Ford Copolla
5.  The Samurai Trilogy--Musashi Miyamoto
6.  The Bicycle Thief-Vitorrio De Sica
7.  The Player--Robert Altman
8.  Crimes and Misdemeanors--Woody Allen
9.  Touch of Evil--Orson Welles
10.  Two for the Road--Stanley Donen

Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:02:43 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Doug_Moore@admin.state.ak.us
From: Arsalan_Sadighi@admin.state.ak.us (by way of asadighi@ptialaska.net 
(Arsalan J. Sadighi))
Subject: Top Ten books & Movies

This message if from Douglas Samimi-Moore:


     Arsalan --

     Here is my list of top ten books, not including Baha'i books, in no
     particular order.

     Native Son, Richard Wright
     Autobiography of Malcolm X, Malcolm X with Alex Haley
     Light in August, William Faulkner
     Main Street, Sinclair Lewis
     Lenin's Tomb, (?cannot remember)
     From Beirut to Jerusalem, Thomas Friedman
     Black Boy, Richard Wright
     East of the Sun, (?cannot remember)
     R is for Rocket, Ray Bradbury
     Alive in the Bitter Sea, (?cannot remember)

     Now, (that was not easy) here is the list of top ten movies, again in
     no particular order.  (Actually there about the only ones I can think
     of.  Ask me tomorrow, I'll probably give you another list.)

     Blazing Saddles
     Shawshank Redemption
     Schindler's List
     Star Wars
     Brother from Another Planet (wonderful story, greta
     Amadeus (okay acting, great music)
     Scent of a Woman (had to include a Pacino movie)
     Bronx Tale (had to include at least one DeNiro movie)
     The Hustler (same with Paul Newman)
     Strange Brew/Longshot/Wayne's World/Mask/etc
     Diva

     Okay, so that's more than ten... so fire me.  Any other top ten's?
     What about top ten plays?  Top ten musical compositions -- you could
     have categories: classical, rock, jazz. Or how about top ten life
     experiences?  Or, top ten worst moments/tests? (Boy, that'd be a good
     one...  You COULD, though, ask for the top ten overcoming-of-a-test
type of thing.)      You could ask for the top ten protagonists from
literature/movies/plays.  Or top        ten twentieth century heroes.

     Let me know the result of your survey.

     Doug





=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:46:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Masumian@mail.utexas.edu, Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no,
        frlw@midway.uchicago.edu
Subject: Other Iran News (fwd)


>Mullahs' Spy Caught, Associated Press, January 31
>
>        JERUSALEM - A Palestinian academic from the West Bank
>has been arrested on suspicion he spied for Iran, Israel's Shin
>Bet security service said today.
>        Mohammed Rajib Salameh Mohammed, 44, who holds a
>doctorate in philosophy, is suspected of having relayed to Iran
>maps of Israel marked with the locations of security
>installations and government ministries, the Shin Bet said in a
>statement.
>        Mohammed, a resident of the West Bank village of Beit
>Jalla, told his interrogators that he was recruited by an official
>at the Iranian Embassy in Jordan, the statement said.
>        Mohammed said he was also ordered to collect information
>on Jordan, said the Shin Bet statement, released by the army
>spokesman's office.
>        Mohammed had started photographing different sites in
>Israel when he was captured, the statement said without
>elaborating....
>
>
>Tougher EU Stance Urged, Fedre Lands Venn, Jan. 28
>
>        Kjell Magne Bondevik, former Norwegian foreign minister
>and the Christian Party's Parliamentary Group Leader, said that
>there's a consensus in the Parliamentary Foreign Affairs
>Commission about the need to initiate greater and tougher
>economic punishments against Iran.
>        Norway's stance vis-=E0-vis the Iran regime is clearly
>defined, he said. The human rights abuses are condemned and
>deplored. I do not rule out the possibility of international
>sanctions against the Tehran regime.
>
>
>Rift Among Mullahs, Iran Zamin News Agency, Jan. 20
>
>        According to government controlled daily Salaam the
>infighting among regime's factions has reached streets of Iran.
>Supporters of Militant Clergy Association have splashed paint
>over wall-mounted signs and banners supporting Rafsanjani,
>and have written new slogans against him, including "Death to
>Rafsanjani."
>
>
>In Iran, Inflation Reaches 120%, Radio France, Jan. 24
>
>        An economics professor at Paris University said while the
>Iranian regime has put the inflation rate at 70%, the real figure
>based on various economic indices is between 100 to 120%.
>        He added: The Iranian regime has tried to increase the
>share of taxes in the budget. Of course low income people carry
>the major burden of the taxes. Four percent of the Iranian
>population hold more than 40% of the country's revenues.
>
>
>Nuclear Accident Reported in Iran's Central City, Radio Israel,
>January 30
>
>        In its latest issue, the French weekly Le Point reported
>about a major fire on January 2nd in Isfahan's nuclear center.
>        Le Point reported that due to the fire, Isfahan's skies were
>closed to air traffic.  The weekly wrote that radioactive clouds,
>resulting from the nuclear fire, covered Isfahan's skies.
>        The Islamic government has not reacted to this report yet.
>On the day of reportedaccident the Islamic government's radio
>and television announced that Isfahan Airport was closed due to
>severe air pollution in the city....
>
>
>Rising Divorce Rate, Government controlled Ressalat daily,
>January 28
>
>        The director of the central province's identification
>registration organization said that divorce rates in the first six
>months of this year rose three-fold relative to last year. He
>quoted Judicial officials as blaming economic problems and the
>resultant psychological pressures, cultural and age differences
>as the primary reasons for the increase in the divorce rate.
>
>
>END



=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:42:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu,
        frlw@midway.uchicago.edu
Subject: Reuters 1/31/96 (fwd)


>    'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/31
>  1. 12:59 IRAN POLICE BANS OPPOSITION NEWS CONFERENCE
>  2. 08:50 ISRAEL SAYS IT ARRESTED SPY FOR IRAN
>  3. 03:26 PRESS DIGEST - LONDON-BASED ARAB NEWSPAPERS - JAN 31
>Transmission date: 96/01/30
>  4. 13:46 REUTERS MIDDLE EAST HIGHLIGHTS
>
>=START=   XMT: 12:59 Wed Jan 31  EXP: 2 :00 Sat Feb 03
>
>
> Iran police bans opposition news conference
>    TEHRAN, Jan 31 (Reuter) - Police on Wednesday prevented nine Iranian
>Islamic liberal and nationalist opposition figures from holding a news
>conference on the March 8 general elections.
>    A security official at the conference's venue in Tehran said ``Seekers of
>Election Freedom was unauthorised and so the conference was illegal.''
>    The umbrella group includes members of the liberal Islamic Iran Freedom
>Movement and the secular nationalist National Front, both illegal but tolerated
>by Tehran.
>    ``See how this is compatible with the government's promise of election
>freedom,'' group member Ali Akbar Moinfar said outside a house where the
>conference was to be held.
>    Police did not allow journalists to interview organisers.
>    On January 10 police said a similar news conference by the group was
>stopped because they could not guarantee its safety.
>    A statement by the group handed to journalists on Wednesday said: ``We, as
>a group, will not put forth any candidate but we will defend the rights of all
>individuals in the election.''
>    The one-week registration of candidates for the 270-seat Majlis or
>parliament started on Tuesday.
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 08:50 Wed Jan 31  EXP: 8 :00 Sat Feb 03
>
>
> Israel says it arrested spy for Iran
>    JERUSALEM, Jan 31 (Reuter) - Israeli security forces have arrested a
>Palestinian from the West Bank on suspicion of spying for Iran, the army said
>on Wednesday.
>    It identified him as Mohammed Rajab Salameh Mohammed, 44, and said he
>provided Iran with maps on which he marked security installations and
>government offices. Israel accuses Iran of seeking its destruction.
>    ``He is a Palestinian from Beit Jala, near Bethlehem, and holds a doctorate
>in philosophy from Beirut University. He has lived in Lebanon, Syria and
>recently in Jordan,'' the army said in a statement.
>    ``(Mohammed) confessed to his Shin Bet security service interrogators that
>he was recruited a year ago to work for Iranian intelligence by Abu Mohammed,
>an Iranian embassy staff member in Jordan,'' the army said.
>    In addition to spying in Israel, the suspect was also asked to carry out
>``intelligence-gathering tasks'' in Jordan, the statement said, without
>elaborating. Israel and Jordan signed a peace treaty in 1994.
>    ``His handler also instructed him to photograph different sites in Israel.
>He started that mission but it was interrupted by his arrest. His interrogation
>is continuing,'' the army said.
>    The statement did not say when the arrest took place.
>    Last August, an Israeli court charged an Iranian-born Israeli Jew, Herzl
>Rad, with spying for Tehran. Rad denied the allegations and proceedings against
>him are still under way.
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 03:26 Wed Jan 31  EXP: 3 :00 Sat Feb 03
>
>
> PRESS DIGEST - London-based Arab newspapers - Jan 31
>    LONDON, Jan 31 (Reuter) - These are the leading stories in two London-based
>Arabic-language newspapers on Wednesday. Reuters has not verified these stories
>and does not vouch for their accuracy.
>    AL-SHARQ AL-AWSAT
>    - Clashes between kidnappers and Yemeni security forces.
>    - Iran tests new missile, Washington sees it threatening shipping.
>    - Fears of military confrontation between Turkey and Greece.
>    - Moody's rating for Gulf Arab states.
>    AL-HAYAT
>    - U.S.: Iran tested new missile near Hormuz.
>    - Confrontation ended with massacre in southern Iraq.
>    - Assaf: Doors open for private sector to play a major role in the Saudi
>economy.
>    - Montell in joint $400 venture with Saudi Zainal.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 13:46 Tue Jan 30  EXP: 3 :00 Fri Feb 02
>
>
> Reuters Middle East Highlights
>    ATHENS - Greece and Turkey called on each other to pull back rival warships
>around a disputed eastern Aegean island while an array of Greek navy ships
>headed for the area off the Turkish coast.
>    - - - -
>    WASHINGTON - Iran has tested and is deploying a new Chinese-made anti-ship
>cruise missile that represents a potential increased threat to oil shipping in
>the Gulf, the U.S. Navy commander in the region said.
>    At the same time, U.S. defence officials also said in response to a news
>report that the Pentagon has not seen any sudden recent increase in Iraq's
>military threat to Kuwait and other moderate Gulf states.
>    - - - -
>    JENIN, West Bank - A Palestinian stabbed to death a 21-year-old Israeli
>soldier at an Israeli military office in the West Bank, the army said.
>    - - - -
>    JERUSALEM - An aide to Palestinian President Yasser Arafat said the PLO
>would amend parts of its charter calling for Israel's destruction but it might
>happen later than promised.
>    GAZA - A Hamas leader said that a majority in his Moslem militant movement
>were ready temporarily to abandon armed struggle against Israel in favour of
>political activity.
>    - - - -
>    JERUSALEM - Israel named a respected former president, Yitzhak Navon, to
>head an inquiry into the treatment of an Ethiopian Jewish community angry and
>humiliated at the wholesale discarding of their blood donations.
>    - - - -
>    JERUSALEM - Foreign Minister Ehud Barak said Israel did not expect any
>sudden breakthroughs in peace talks with Syria resuming.
>    - - - -
>    NABATIYEH, Lebanon - Israel launched two air raids against Moslem guerrilla
>posts in south Lebanon on in its first air strikes into Lebanon this year,
>security sources said.
>    - - - -
>    PARIS - Moslem guerrillas cut the throats of six women and a little girl
>and mutilated their bodies in eastern Algeria in retaliation for a security
>force crackdown, Algeria's main Arab language newspaper said.
>    - - - -
>    ANKARA - Turkey's caretaker prime minister Tansu Ciller said she was
>willing to form a minority government or offer an enhanced deputy premiership
>to her main rival nearly a month after inconclusive general polls.
>    - - - -
>    BEIRUT - A Lebanese parliamentary deputy accused police, security agencies
>and investigative authorities of beating and torturing suspects and committing
>other human rights violations.
>
>=END=
>
>
>




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:39:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu,
        Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no
Subject: Reuters 2/1/96 (fwd)


>    'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/02/01
>  1. 13:53 IRAN ORDERS OUT BAHRAINI DIPLOMAT
>  2. 13:19 IRAN EXPELS BAHRAINI DIPLOMAT -IRNA
>  3. 12:58 IRAN EXPELS BAHRAINI DIPLOMAT -IRNA
>  4. 06:32 BAHRAIN EXPELS IRANIAN DIPLOMAT
>  5. 05:39 ISRAEL DEPORTS ALLEGED SPY TO JORDAN
>  6. 04:35 BAHRAIN EXPELS IRANIAN DIPLOMAT
>  7. 04:24 ISRAEL EXPELLING ALLEGED SPY TO JORDAN
>  8. 03:45 NEW IRANIAN MISSILES RAISE GULF ARAB FEARS
>
>=START=   XMT: 13:53 Thu Feb 01  EXP: 3 :00 Sun Feb 04
>
>
> Iran orders out Bahraini diplomat
>    (Adds details, background; previous NICOSIA)
>    TEHRAN, Feb 1 (Reuter) - Tehran expelled a Bahraini diplomat on Thursday, a
>day after Bahrain ordered out an Iranian diplomat in Manama, the Iranian news
>agency IRNA said.
>    Bahrain embassy's second secretary, Ali Ibrahim al-Sisi, was asked to leave
>Tehran within one week because of ``his involvement in matters...against
>diplomatic norms,'' IRNA quoted an Iranian foreign ministry official as saying.
>    The order was also reported by Iranian television and radio, which did not
>mention the expulsion order issued fo Iran's third secretary in Bahrain on
>Wednesday.
>    The tit-for-tat expulsions followed accusations in Bahraini newspapers that
>Iran incited protests by Shi'ite Moslems against the government of the Gulf
>island state.
>    Iran has denied the allegation. Iranian newspapers in the past week have
>said in editorials that Bahrain should not attribute its domestic problems to
>external sources.
>    Diplomats in Bahrain said on Thursday Iranian embassy's third secretary
>Abdul-Rasool Dokoohki was given one week to pack his bags and go.
>    ``He has been asked to leave for carrying out duties and practices outside
>his diplomatic duty,'' said a Bahraini government official who declined to give
>further details.
>    Dokoohki, contacted by Reuters in Bahrain, declined to comment and said ``I
>do not have any information.'' Iran's ambassador to Bahrain, Jawad Turk Abadi,
>was unavailable for comment.
>    Protests by members of Bahrain's Shi'ite majority against the island's
>Sunni-dominated government broke out in December 1994 after the arrest of a
>Shi'ite cleric, Sheikh Ali Salman, who had studied in the Iranian holy city of
>Qom.
>    Sheikh Ali was arrested for distributing leaflets signed by around 20,000
>calling for the restoration of parliament dissolved in 1975. He was later
>deported together with three other Shi'ite clerics.
>    Diplomats in Manama said they were expecting the expulsion since other Gulf
>Arab states backed Bahrain's measures to confront what officials termed a
>foreign-backed sabotage plot to destabilise security in the country.
>    Unrest in Bahrain resumed last month after an eight-month lull with
>rioting, bombings, arson and other acts of sabotage.
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 13:19 Thu Feb 01  EXP: 3 :00 Sun Feb 04
>
>
> Iran expels Bahraini diplomat -IRNA
>    Bahraini newspapers have accused Iran of inciting protests against the
>government by Shi'ite Moslems. Iran has denied the allegation.
>    Diplomats in Bahrain said on Thursday Iranian embassy's third secretary
>Abdul-Rasool Dokoohki was given one week to pack his bags and go.
>    ``He has been asked to leave for carrying out duties and practices outside
>his diplomatic duty,'' a Bahraini government official said, but declined to
>give further details of the expulsion order issued on Wednesday.
>    Dokoohki, contacted by Reuters, declined to comment and said ``I do not
>have any information.'' Iran's ambassador to Bahrain, Jawad Turk Abadi, was
>unavailable for comment.
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 12:58 Thu Feb 01  EXP: 2 :00 Sun Feb 04
>
>
> Iran expels Bahraini diplomat -IRNA
>    NICOSIA, Feb 1 (Reuter) - Iran expelled a Bahraini diplomat on Thursday, a
>day after Bahrain ordered out an Iranian diplomat in Manama, the Iranian news
>agency IRNA said.
>    It quoted an Iranian foreign ministry official as saying Bahrain embassy's
>second secretary, Ali Ibrahim al-Sisi, was asked to leave Tehran within one
>week because of ``his involvement in matters...against diplomatic norms.''
> MORE
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 06:32 Thu Feb 01  EXP: 6 :00 Sun Feb 04
>
>
> Bahrain expels Iranian diplomat
>    (Adds name of diplomat, background)
>    MANAMA, Feb 1 (Reuter) - Bahrain has ordered an Iranian diplomat to leave
>the country for activities incompatible with his diplomatic status, a
>government official said on Thursday.
>    Diplomats said third secretary Abdul-Rasool Dokoohki was given one week to
>pack his bags and go.
>    ``He has been asked to leave for carrying out duties and practices outside
>his diplomatic duty,'' the official said, but declined to give further details
>of the expulsion order issued on Wednesday.
>    Dokoohki, contacted by Reuters, declined to comment and said ``I do not
>have any information.'' Iran's ambassador to Bahrain, Jawad Turk Abadi, was
>unavailable for comment.
>    Bahraini newspapers have accused Iran of inciting protests against the
>government by Shi'ite Moslems. Iran has denied the allegation.
>    Protests by members of Bahrain's Shi'ite majority against the island's
>Sunni-dominated government broke out in December 1994 after the arrest of a
>Shi'ite cleric, Sheikh Ali Salman.
>    Sheikh Ali, who had studied in the Iranian holy city of Qom, was arrested
>for distributing leaflets signed by around 20,000 calling for the restoration
>of parliament dissolved in 1975. He was later deported together with three
>other Shi'ite clerics.
>    Diplomats said they were expecting the move since other Gulf Arab states
>backed Bahrain's measures to confront what officials termed a foreign-backed
>sabotage plot to destabilise security in the country.
>    Unrest in Bahrain resumed last month after an eight-month lull with
>rioting, bombings, arson and other acts of sabotage.
>    Residents said on Thursday riot police were patrolling Karzakan area in
>southwestern Bahrain, stopping motorists from both directions and checking cars
>and passengers.
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 05:39 Thu Feb 01  EXP: 5 :00 Sun Feb 04
>
>
> Israel deports alleged spy to Jordan
>    (Updates with army confirmation alleged spy deported)
>    JERUSALEM, Feb 1 (Reuter) - Israel deported to Jordan on Thursday a
>Palestinian arrested on suspicion of spying for Iran, the army said.
>    It announced on Wednesday it had arrested a Palestinian who it identified
>as Mohammed Rajab Salameh Mohammed, 44. The army said he provided Iran with
>maps on which he marked security installations and government offices.
>    ``The spy was deported to Jordan today,'' an army spokeswoman said,
>confirming reports he had crossed the Allenby bridge linking the West Bank and
>Jordan.
>    In Wednesday's announcement, the army said Mohammed had been recruited in
>Jordan by an Iranian embassy staff member and had also carried out
>``intelligence-gathering tasks'' there.
>    Israel and Jordan signed a peace treaty in 1994. Israel has accused Iran of
>seeking its destruction.
>    The army said the alleged spy was from the West Bank village of Beit Jala,
>near Bethlehem, but had also lived in Lebanon, Syria and recently in Jordan.
>    As a Palestinian, Mohammed would not have been able to gain access easily
>to sensitive Israeli installations. The Israeli newspaper Maariv described him
>as a ``low-level'' spy.
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 04:35 Thu Feb 01  EXP: 4 :00 Sun Feb 04
>
>
> Bahrain expels Iranian diplomat
>    MANAMA, Feb 1 (Reuter) - Bahrain has ordered an Iranian diplomat to leave
>the country for activities incompatible with his diplomatic status, a
>government official said on Thursday.
>    ``He has been asked to leave for carrying out duties and practices outside
>his diplomatic duty,'' the official said.
>    The diplomat, a third secretary at the Iranian embassy, was given one week
>to leave, the official said. He declined to name the diplomat or give further
>details of the expulsion order issued on Wednesday.
>    An official at the Iranian embassy, contacted by Reuters, said he had no
>information and declined to name the diplomat.
>    Bahraini newspapers have accused Iran of fomenting protests against the
>government by Shi'ite Moslems. Iran has denied the allegation.
>    Protests by members of Bahrain's Shi'ite majority against the island's
>Sunni-dominated government broke out in December 1994. Protesters sought the
>release of political prisoners and the restoration of parliament dissolved in
>1975.
>    Violence returned to the streets last month with bombings, arson and other
>acts of sabotage.
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 04:24 Thu Feb 01  EXP: 4 :00 Sun Feb 04
>
>
> Israel expelling alleged spy to Jordan
>    JERUSALEM, Feb 1 (Reuter) - Israel planned to expel to Jordan on Thursday a
>Palestinian arrested on suspicion of spying for Iran, security sources said.
>    The army announced on Wednesday it had arrested a Palestinian who it
>identified as Mohammed Rajab Salameh Mohammed, 44. It said he provided Iran
>with maps on which he marked security installations and government offices.
>    The security sources said the alleged spy holds Jordanian citizenship and
>was taken on Thursday to the Allenby bridge crossing between the West Bank and
>Jordan for expulsion to the kingdom.
>    In Wednesday's announcement, the army said he had been recruited in Jordan
>by an Iranian embassy staff member and had also carried out
>``intelligence-gathering tasks'' there.
>    Israel and Jordan signed a peace treaty in 1994. Israel has accused Iran of
>seeking its destruction.
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 03:45 Thu Feb 01  EXP: 3 :00 Sun Feb 04
>
>
> New Iranian missiles raise Gulf Arab fears
>    By Ashraf Fouad
>    DUBAI, Feb 1 (Reuter) - Iran has restored its capability to fire anti-ship
>missiles at sea, raising Gulf Arab fears of their neighbour's growing ability
>to control the world's largest oil-exporting shipping lane, analysts said on
>Thursday.
>    ``It is obvious that Iran is developing a capability to control shipping in
>the Gulf,'' said an Arab analyst of the waterway through which 15 million
>barrels of oil are exported every day.
>    U.S. forces patrolling the Gulf this week said Iran successfuly test-fired
>a Chinese C-802 anti-ship missile on January 6 from a ship in the Arabian Sea
>just outside the Gulf.
>    ``Iran now has an anti-ship capability at sea. This is the first such
>capability Iran has had at sea since 1988,'' a Western officer said of growing
>concern in Washington and the Gulf.
>    However, the latest anti-ship missile capability ``does not mean Iran plans
>to attack anyone soon but is a serious development'' in a region which controls
>about 70 percent of the world's oil reserves, the Arab analyst said.
>    A Western oil shipping executive said ``of course it is an improvement in
>capability but it does not indicate an Iranian intention to threaten shipping
>or anything of the sort.''
>    A U.S. naval spokesman in the region said ``We are dealing with capability
>not with intention. We are dealing with what Iran has in its arsenal and what
>poses a potential threat to shipping.''
>    U.S. forces, in one of the most serious clashes with Iran, attacked Iranian
>naval vessels in the Gulf in 1988, ending the Tehran's ability to launch
>anti-ship missiles from sea.
>    Iran's potential threat to Gulf shipping was not completely eliminated at
>the time but was restricted to land-based systems like Silkworm Chinese
>missiles which were fired at U.S. and other targets during the 1980-88
>Iran-Iraq war.
>    Military sources in the region could not say how many of the radar-guided
>missiles, with a range of 60 miles (95 km), Iran had but said Iran could mount
>them on Chinese-made Houdong patrol boats, freely moving them in and around the
>waterway.
>    ``Before you had to worry about missiles coming from one side on land, now
>it can come from any side,'' the Western officer said of Iran's latest seaborne
>ability.
>    The Arab analyst said: ``This is an offensive weapon aimed at gradually
>being able to control shipping while Gulf Arab states are purchasing defensive
>arms to counter Tehran's buildup.''
>    Iran launched a major rearmament plan after its arsenal was depleted during
>the 1980-88 war with Iraq. Some Gulf Arab states responded by even larger arms
>procurements.
>    U.S. forces in the region clashed several times with Iranian units during
>the Iran-Iraq war when the two sides attacked Gulf shipping and many vessels
>were damaged by mines alleged to have been placed by Tehran.
>    Washington says Iran has four shore bases from which to launch anti-ship
>missiles. Last March the United States said Iran had deployed Hawk missiles
>close to the Straits of Hormuz, the Gulf's narrow and only entrance flanked by
>Iran and Oman.
>    Tehran has other surface-to-air missiles deployed on its Gulf shores and
>strategic Gulf islands, Western military officers in the region say.
>    Gulf Arab states and their Western allies are now watching to see when
>non-Arab Iran would deploy a third Russian-made Kilo-class submarine in the
>area.
>    ``The third submarine is due to be delivered to Iran this year,'' one
>officer said. Iran is the only regional state to deploy submarines in the area.
>    ``With three vessels Iran's submarine force has to be taken more
>seriously,'' said an Arab expert. ``With two submarines, one is always in
>maintenance and the other is patrolling.''
>    Western powers guarding the Gulf often have submarines in and around the
>region. The United States also has 12 military cargo ships carrying heavy arms
>and other emergency equipment for 20,000 marines and army troops in the region.
>    The pre-positioning of added U.S. military hardware in Qatar started last
>month and the Pentagon also has enough heavy armour for a U.S. Army brigade
>stored in Kuwait.
>    Western diplomats in the region say Iran realises that it is not in its
>national interest to provoke a military confrontation and has much respect for
>world naval powers patrolling the Gulf.
>    One earlier said the Iranian buildup raised the level of risk. Fears centre
>around a putative ``unprofessional'' Iranian commander deciding ``to take
>matters into his own hands,'' firing a weapon without receiving orders from the
>central command.
>
>=END=
>
>
>






=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 19:23:11 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: must depart
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Dear Talismanians, I have to sign off for awhile.  Our older son is in the
hospital, just diagnosed with diabetes.   Dawn prayers at the Temple in Omaha
please!

Now, you all ask, who will Derek and Burl kick around while I am gone?  Surely
with all their talent, they will find a new victim.  Hope to be back soon.
Linda



=END=


From: Mark Bamford 
To: "'Talisman'" 
Subject: Scorsese and the Failed "Casino"
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 16:31:42 -0800



Sorry Richard,

	I'm afraid I must disagree with you on this one, as I consider "Casino" =
to be just another in a recent series of failed Scorsese films. And =
frankly, I found more artistic merit in your review of it than in the =
film itself!

	I do agree that Scorsese was toying around with some interesting =
themes, as you described so well, but theme alone does not make a film, =
and besides, haven't we seen enough of this very same theme from him in =
the past? Structurally, the film was very weak (the length alone gives =
this away), and however noble his attempt, having a grand thematic =
"idea" and actually fulfilling this ideal are two entirely different =
things.

	As far as the actors, you know you are in for trouble when the best =
performance in the film comes from Sharon (not Susan) Stone. Pesci was =
simply hacking away at the same old character he brilliantly portrayed =
in "Goodfellas", and DeNiro (who hasn't turned in a fresh or innovative =
performance in years) is just as guilty of doing the same old shtick. I =
don't know if you've ever met the man in person, but he's pretty much =
like all his characters (except for the killing part, as far as I know =
at least). De Niro never takes on a new "character", he just plays =
himself - this is not acting. True, he is able to run the emotional =
gamit flawlessly, but only as himself - he never changes his role.

	Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the last good film Scorsese made was =
"Last Temptation of Christ" - and please, don't even mention "Cape =
Fear"!

Mark Bamford






=END=


From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:21:48 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Sinaic Imagery

Dear Sandy:
   Well, I hardly think that the historical trivilization, discounting, and
criminalization of female sexuality can usefully be replaced by doing the
same to male sexuality in return.  This is one area of human life in which
our comfortable retreat to reductionism really becomes ridiculous.
    It should be obvious that both a male and a female approach to sexuality
are valuable and should have equal dignity and holiness.  To reduce male
sexual desire and experience to and ugly criminal act should be just as
unacceptable as doing the same to female sexual desire.  This is usually done
in traditional culture--often in the Middle East, and I find it offensive and
oppressive.  (Frankly, I also found your post offensive and oppressive.)
    If we want to contemplate the divine in a Baha'i context from the point
of view of female desire, then we will have to look around for some Baha'i
women revelators.  I think they are there.  The erotic poetry of Tahirih, and
the prayers of the Greatest Holy Leaf would be a good start.  At least, they
do "it" for me.  (And I am not referring to Platonic contemplation.  :-)

Tony



=END=


Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 16:48:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: part 2 of comments on Ghulam-i Khuld

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]


Today, I had a little time to a do a bit more deepening on this
amazing "Tablet of the Eternal Youth" and am so thankful to have
this superb translation by John Walbridge to guide me through it.
A few minor and unworthy thoughts are shared on the translation.

I don't know if other Talismanians are also deepening on this
Tablet, but a beautiful outline of history of appearance of the Bab
and Baha'u'llah -- including profound vision of Their stations --
is portrayed.

(Note some of the suggested alterations, such as changing "khuld"
to Eternal, or "come" to "came", etc., were covered in the earlier
posting and won't be repeated here.)


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with vision mystic and
                                                -----------------
mighty.
[The original phrase "bi kashfin `azim" is literally "greatly
unveiled", but this doesn't sound right in English and I don't know
what to suggest.  I like to see the word "unveiled" in the sentence
though, because that's what Baha'u'llah is suggesting, namely, that
the Bab mightily removed the veil from His Countenance and
announced Himself to all.  Somebody smarter than me should figure a
better phrase to use.]


He came down from the pavillions of beauty and stood like the Sun
at the zenith of heaven, peerless and unique in His beauty.
                         -------------------
[The translation of this sentence is absolutely ingenious by John.
Very nice.  The phrase underlined, in the original is "badi`an
mani`".  The term "badi`" really suggests:  new.  And "mani`" is
closer to: exalted.  It seems that Baha'u'llah is emphasizing the
appearance of the Bab is new and that He is exalted (over and above
the other earlier Manifestations, which is repeatedly confirmed in
various Writings.]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come bearing great joy.

Thus He stood in the midst of heaven, shining like the noonday
Sun at the axis of beauty, His Name mighty!  Thereupon a herald
           ----                                        -
proclaimed:
[The phrase in original is "markaz", which should perhaps be
rendered as:  center.  What does Baha'u'llah mean by saying the Bab
is at the center of Beauty?  I don't understand this sentence.
Also, "al-munad" is specific, as such it should be "the".  Could it
be a reference to Shyakh Ahmad?]


"Rejoice! This is the Beauty of the Unseen, come with a mighty
spirit."

A clamor then arose from the hearts of the maids of heaven in
their chambers, "Blessed be God, the best of Creators!"  Thereupon
                                     ----------------
the dove sang out:
    ----         -
[The phrase "best of Creators" is a correct literal translation,
but the problem is that it suggest there are many Creators, but
blessings be upon this one Who is the best among Them!  This of
course is Islamic in its formulation, but makes very little sense
in English.  I think "great Creator" may be closer to the intend of
Baha'u'llah.  Regarding "dove", I just don't like this word, and
prefer "nightingales".  Note that it should be plural.]


"Rejoice! for the eyes of the privy angels have seen none like unto
-                             ------------
this Deathless Youth."
["muqarrabin" is perhaps closer to:  near-ones.  Also, this
sentence in the original is closer to:  "This is the Eternal Youth
which the eyes of none among the near-ones has seen."  I realize
this isn't very elegant, but its a bit closer to the original
construction.]


The gates of Paradise were flung wide yet again, opened with the
key of a mighty Name.

Rejoice!  This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Name.

The Maid of Beauty came forth, dawning like the sun, plain upon
the horizon of the morn.

Rejoice! This is the Maid of Glory, come with a mighty beauty.

A brocade she wore, dazzling the minds of the privy angels.
----------------------------------------------------------
[I suggest rephrasing:  Ornamented, She emerged, exulting the minds
of the near-ones.]


Rejoice! this is the Deathless Maid, come with a mighty grace.

She descended from the chambers of eternity, then She sang such a
song as to enchant the hearts of the sincere.

Rejoice!  This is the Deathless Beauty, come with a mighty secret.

She walked in the midst of space, and lo! she let slip a lock of
--------------------------------
Her hair from beaneath Her luminous veil.
[Suggest rephrasing:  Suspended in the heavens, ...]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Maid, come with a wondrous spirit.

And by this single lock the people of all the worlds were perfumed.
It made the faces of the holy ones to pale, and the hearts of the
lovers to bleed.

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Maid, come with a mighty perfume.

By God!  Whoso shutteth his eyes to Her beauty hath schemed
grievously and is in evident falsehood.

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Maid, come with a mighty light.

She turned, and with Her turned the inhabitants of both worlds.
                ----------------------------------------------
[The original conveys that by the Bab turning, the entire world
circled around Him.  So, perhaps a rephrasing should be:  "She
turned, and the inhabitants of both worlds circumambulate her."
This is not very elegant, but the sentence must convey that the
world's people were circling around the Bab as He turned.]


Rejoice! this is the Deathless Maid, come with a mighty revolution.

She advanced until She stood in Her wondrous brocade before that
                                             -------        ----
Youth.
[Suggest altering brocade to:  adornment.  The "Youth" is a
reference to Baha'u'llah, and therefore, must be "the Youth".  (We
can't make it "this Youth" because He doesn't say "haza Ghulam".)
So, the image is that of the Bab standing in His most wondrous
spiritual beauty before Baha'u'llah.]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Beauty, come wondrous fair.

Then from beneath that veil She brought forth a hennaed hand.  Like
a ray of sun it was, upon a bright mirror!

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Beauty, come in a fashion mighty.

With fingertips like peerless gems She took the hem of the Youth's
                              ----
veil.
[Instead of "gems" suggest "ruby" as its closer to original.
Again, by "Youth" is now meant Baha'u'llah and its no longer the
Bab.  Incidentally, should "Youth's veil" be "veil of the Youth"?]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Beauty, come with a mighty glance.

She lifted the veil from off His face--lo! the pillars of the
mighty Throne were shaken.

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.

[Not a comment on translation, but a remark that this sentence
indicates that by the Bab lifting the veil from the Cause of
Baha'u'llah, a new Theophony appeared.  In other words, the very
Cause of the appearance of Baha'u'llah is the Dispensation of the
Bab and His Person.  Amazing thoguth!  Absolutely magnificent!!]


Best wishes, ahang.



=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 18:55 PST
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: must depart
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

>who will Derek and Burl kick around while I am gone?  Surely
>with all their talent, they will find a new victim.  Hope to be back soon.
>Linda
>
   Mr. Burl and Uncle Derek will entreat the All-Mercifull with prayers on
your behalf. As for a new victim, the vestibule is crowded with applicants,
many addorned in anti-gravity docetic fashions, eager to display their angst
amidst the aghast and agog (sequel to gog and magog)

Burl
>

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from  Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:37:00 -0800
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: must depart

Dear Linda,  I hope your son health improves.    Prayers are forthcoming
from Seattle.  I just hope it ain't me to take this bless spot...    gads..
I bruise easy!

Warmly, Margreet


At 07:23 PM 2/1/96 EWT, LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu wrote:
>Dear Talismanians, I have to sign off for awhile.  Our older son is in the
>hospital, just diagnosed with diabetes.   Dawn prayers at the Temple in Omaha
>please!
>
>Now, you all ask, who will Derek and Burl kick around while I am gone?  Surely
>with all their talent, they will find a new victim.  Hope to be back soon.
>Linda
>




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 18:08:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Derek please e-mail Linda



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 19:29:10 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
To: sadra@Rt66.com
Subject: RE: Reuters 2/1/96 (fwd)

Dear Nima, do you have Derek's e-mail address.  I need to get a message to him?





=END=


From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:58:52 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re:Sinaic imagery and Lovers

      Dear Tony and all,

      Thank you for raising this issue !    I hope we will get more and more
of this type of Bahau llah's work . Perhaps we in the West are not ready for
it but I would like to think there are significant segments of the Western
public which would be so receptive we would have to gird up our loins for
entry by troops . Just look at the reception of Rumi's work in this country
in translation by Thomas Cleary and Coleman barks . There is an audiance .
Tie that to the ethical prescriptions of Bahau llah for the emerging Global
culture and I believe we have an explosive combination .

      In my Baha Maiden dialogue wirk I have deliberately played down the
overtly eroctic quality of Bahau lah's writing for the reason you mentioned .
 Even my "Deathless" posts left out the full range of the experience . You
managed to see through that .  Your right I was not engaged in Platonic
comtemplation or should I say S/He was not not simply toying with my mind .

    In the past few years I have had probably four of these overwhelming
experiences , several smaller ones :) but these particular ones are
unbelievable . While they do not occur in a physical time or place they are
more real than anything I have experienced in physical terms .

      The process is much like an elaborate courship ritual  .  When Baha u
llah speaks of lifting veils, and tresses, and musk  - well- those physical
*symbols * have there true counterpart in the world of eternity  and they
contain points of contact and action .  I have been spun around , turned
inside out ,  rolled flat on my back and been both the "active " one  and the
"receptive " one in these  , what should I call , encounters . I have been
the lover in pursuit of the Beloved  and the beloved beckoned to by the Lover
and come to realize  that "these two are the same yet they are different . In
some sense it is nothing less than the Divine Being contemplating its own
Beauty in the mirror which is my soul and the souls of all  human beings.

     The effect of finding oneself in the process of "seducing " divinity and
realizing that simulataneously "I"am the one being seduced is nearly more
than the body can endure . That is what I meant in trying , in a circumspect
way , to describe the image as a "bisexual one" . Language fails me here .
This is something which included me and yet trancends me .  I was at moments
the lover , at others the beloved and at others almost a voyeur watching the
Divine dance within its Beauty .

   These few times are those when  I understand and have experienced the
*truth * of Bahau llah when he quotes  the  hadith  in Seven Valleys" A
servant is drawn to Me in prayer until I answer him ; and when I have
answered him , I become the ear wherewith he heareth  . . for thus the Master
of the House hath appeared within His home ."  This being made love to by the
Divine Beloved as S/HE draws you to the "Ancient Light " in prayer and then
in the answer all that one hears is that Voice both praying and answering and
that ones own voice (if i can call it my own ) is an echo of that Divine
Voice - well  it is a little unnerving at first  because of the dawning
awareness that there is no seperate self  . The reality is  the Master , the
House and the home . And when one hears that Voice say allow me to enter MY
home and I realize that home is "me" , my soul - and that this home is
contained within the Master's House well I can say that it is an  ecstatic
event  utterly beyond words. And it does have orgasmic reverberations both
within the soul and throughout the body .  I think it is why when Bahau llah
says in Gleanings " all the atoms of the earth testify to My love for thee"
that I can't help but cry at such moments .

    Usually this has happened to me in moments of pain or despair - the Siyah
Chal dimension . This was the first time I remember its Source in the sense
of ecstsy - the Ridvan dimension . There is a paasge in Gleanings which
perhaps comes close to getting at all this . It is from the Surat al Bayan.
 In it Bahau llah says : " drape thyself in whatever manner pleaseth Thee in
the silken vesture of Immortality, and put on , in the name of the All -
Glorious , the broidered Robe of Light."  he of course continues with
 speaking of " the sweet wonderous accent of the Voice". and unveiling the
face of the "beauty of the balck -eyed Damsel " and asks that the dwellers of
the earth ( that;s us ) not be  "deprived of Thy shining countenence."

  i can say for that  Ancient Beauty to be  'draped " assumes perhaps that
S/He was undressed . Imagine beholding the "everlasting Candle" shining " in
its naked glory."   I dont have the foggiest idea why but I have seen this
black eyed damsel dress itself in that "Robe of Light " and been wrapped
within its  "silken" "musky " folds.  It is why I have said in the past I may
not walk across the street for the Primal Will , but God willing , I would
die for this Bahau llah .> This BAHAU LLAH , this MAIDEN .

    Anyone who does not find this work and experience of Bahau llah's erotic
really ought to slowly and carefully read the tablet of the Lover and the
Beloved in Gleanings p.319 -322. I understand the fear in approaching God in
such a way . i shared it for years .  But I can say when S/HE gets ahold of
you let go and nothing will be the same .  Why do we suppose that the Babi's
could smile on the way to their death , endure such profound torture ? How do
we suppose Bahau llah - the rational human soul of Husayn Ali -endured the
undescribable conditions of the Siyah Chal ? I think the answer in both cases
is that they had been found and made love to and with the Divine Beloved and
wordly pain or death no longer became an object of fear . In a word the "hand
of the Will of Thy Lord transformed Me" as Bahau llah says .  Or as I have
said to the youth here in Omaha . What do you suppose happened to Badi ? Why
do you think he indertook a mission for Bahau lah that would result in
certian death ? Where do you suppose Bahau llah took him in their private
meetings ? Man !   Gracious God !  He took him to the House of the Master and
his home . And you all know what happens there .  That's why Badi did it . He
was GOING HOME ! ! .
       I believe the Faithof Baha u llah will create such experiences for
humankind that it will become irresistable to people  - IF we are wiling to
engage people on this level and welcome all the souls to this religious
commmuinity and recognize (Irfan )  that
 every soul is the home of the Master. Then we will have lived up to the
vision of Bahau llah .
       Tony thanks for giving me the impetus to speak of this .  I just spent
48 hours in *Paradise* with little sleep and would trade it for nothing . It
takes a soul mate sometimes to give one permission . Thank you  / And a deep
, deep thanks to John for posting this . He first mentioned it to me a couple
of months back. The timing was however impeccable but that is a different
story.

  warmest regards ,
    terry



=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 19:58 PST
To: SFotos@eworld.com
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Sinaic Imagery
Cc: TALISMAN@indiana.edu

>Sandy Fotos said:
>My daughter's teen magazine, Sassy, had a little article on "When he says he
>loves you forever, how long is forever for your boyfriend?"  Choices were one
>week, two weeks,  a month, two months.

                                -----
  Further proof that the future isn't what it used to be.

bb

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from  Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************




=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 96 07:35:54+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: prosperity statement

Dear Friends,

Thank you for all the responses to our request for the prosperity statement.
Don and I will study it and see what it has to say.  I must say, our
experiences with developmental work are jaded at the moment because of the
rampant corruption and politics involved, and a new perspective might be a
breath of fresh air!  Don is managing to transend it much better than I.

Let us study this statement and see what insight it has to offer.

Thanks again to the many responses,'

Love,

Bev.




=END=


From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:32:36 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be, jarmstro@sun1.iusb.edu
Subject: Re: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of Writings

Dear Tony and friends,

Tony wrote:
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

 I hardly think that the historical trivilization, discounting, and
criminalization of female sexuality can usefully be replaced by doing the
same to male sexuality in return.

----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

I don't think I was suggesting this, but rather raising the call for an
approach to the mystic side of the Faith which transcends
sexuality--particularly male sexual fantasy.   I am arguing that such
sexualization of the mystic poetry of the Manifestation as the primary way to
construct its meaning is limiting and is likely a reflection of a
preoccupation with this side of physical existence.

Why should these writings be understood solely from the sexual perspective?
What of those who are not yet physically mature, or ill, or not sexually
oriented or very old? Are these people then excluded from appreciation of the
mystic truths and beauty? Is the only mystic union with the Beloved some
version of a sexual one?  Frankly, it is not clear whether there even is such
a thing as gender in the spiritual world, but we certainly know that the
spiritual laws of love and attraction operate in all kingdoms. This, I
submit, is very different from human sexual constructs.

These writings are a reflection of  spiritual realities which are hidden from
us. The idea of maids of heaven, etc.--these are spiritual entities the
nature of which we can't comprehend in our present life, hence some men may
wish to endow them with seductive qualities, etc.

However, my interaction with the exquisite mystic translations we have just
received is very different and, I submit, just as valid.

Respectfully,
Sandy Fotos
Tokyo





=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 23:18:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Scorsese and the Failed "Casino"
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Mark Bamford" , "Talisman" 

Dear Mark,

Yes I Know that's the standard Line that the critic's are taking and it
doesn't suprise me.  Greatness is rarely recognized initially.  I really
can't say anymore than that.  Time will tell.

Richard

Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 96 07:36:05+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: sexuality and the writings



I would suggest that there are some important issues relating
to individual spiritual development and sexual "mental health"
(is chastity it?) that might be immediately applicable in order
to facilitate an increased release of spiritual potential and
resulting sense of individual fulfillment.


Dear Friends:

I have been following this discourse with some amusement, and some
disbelief.  I guess the thought that sticks in my mind is "purity of
thought", and "purity of spirit".  This is not an intellectual position, but
a heart felt response.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  If I see something beautiful, I'm
not going to stop seeing it because someone else doesn't.

If you view sexual methaphors with the mind of human "depravity", i.e.,
seeing sex as something exploitive and dirty, you reduce the writings to a
dime store novel (not that they cost a dime anymore).  When folks shut down
on sexual metaphors and class them with "depravity" and surpress that
overpowering urge, I have to wonder where that energy goes?  It is sort of
like jello...push it down in one place, and it's going to ooze out somewhere
else. Something so strong will not go away.  Something that powerful as to
create life needs to be embraced and fully experienced.  It is our
opportunity to engage in creation, in the act of creating, to be fully
engaged.  I am speaking metaphorically here about spiritual connection with
Baha'u'llah, with the Creative Impusle of the Universe. To reduce it to
anything less is to deny life.

If you view sexual methaphors from a spiritual perspective as a beautiful,
consumate, connecting, reproductive, life-generating exchange between the
lover and the beloved, it raises it to its spiritual level...a level of
wonderment and discovery!

Maybe our global preoccupation with sex in a negative sense (which results
in depravity) is but a reflection of an unfulfilled yearning for a more
meaningful expression of this.  Certainly when it has been touched upon, it
has resulted in poetry, art and music which has fed the human spirit for
centuries, and some artists have even been able to draw that correlation.
Sex certainly can rivet our attention, even to the point of overriding all
other concerns...this yearning for that fulfillment, that contact with
another.  When you put that into spiritual terms, one can feel the soul
respond, so restless for that contact that it must pursue it, and nothing
else will satisfy.

I wonder what the results would be if humanity as a whole could express
their yearnings in such a way.

Love,

Bev.




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 23:11 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Scorsese and the Failed "Casino"

Richard, praising Casino for its inverted Christ imagery said:
 Greatness is rarely recognized initially.

Burl sez:

  Oh, I don't know about that. Dean Martin & Jerry Lewis were instant hits
-- from obscurity to screaming adoration in 90 days.

  Burl

*******************************************************
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Stacks, Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************




=END=


From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 02:45:44 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Talisman Survey 2

     Dear friends,

     I would like to thank everyone who has commented so far . A number of
you have responded privately which is wonderful .  At the moment I have 21
responses. I plan on presenting the information to the LSA at its meeting on
Saturday and then at Feast on Feb. 7 . Minus the individual names of course .


    I know there are more than 21 people subscribed to talisman so for those
of you who have not respondd so far   . . . keep those cards and letters
coming .

    I will organize the comments into types and report back to Talisman land
as well .

     On an unrelated matter  I can say this has been a heck of a week with
Surah of Blood , Deathless Youth and noe Stepehen Lambdens work . It could
not have come at a better time for me .

    Wednesday morning the corporate hatchet tyoes arrived at our office in
Omaha  - unannounced and informed us all that effective March 1 this palce
would close . 30 days boom end of story . This  is the result ofa merger that
has ben in process fro several months. All along we were told there would be
a several month advance notice and time to plan etc. Surprise ! !

    The Corporate headquarters types hace a 3 week for every year of service
severence package . Oh darn the folks in the field offices get  lets see a 30
day notice and no severence package . Hmmm ! .

     One great thing in all this in conversations with my children - I have
four of them -  is that they now have a much better understanding of their
fathers , shall I say , less than enthusiastic support for "unbridaled
capitalism lo these many years .

    A slightly humorous note for me at least . when the corporate pimp had
finished his announcement he asked if there were any questions . well  still
being in a relative state of "paradise " Wednesday morning  I smiled a big
smile and said  " Have you heard of the *Deathless Youth* . I couldnt resist.
the guys face turned a little white , I think he was seeing images of
disgruntled postal workers . His response was of course no so I had to tell
him and the assembled multitudes about the appearance of a new Theophany
whose most powerful words have to do with justice and said  "The Best Beloved
of all things in my sight is justice.' And wondered if the news he was
conveying met that standard .  Gosh the question and answer session came to a
quick close. Imagine that ! . I said some other things perhaps not repeatable
here .  :)

   So mercifully for some,  my time on Talisman will probably be limited for
a while as I begin the process of finding different employment , not an all
together bad thing .

    warm regards ,
       Terry



=END=


From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 02:45:35 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject:  more Sinaic Imagery

     Dear Sandy and all ,

    I am confused by your recent comments .

      In my Baha Maiden Dialogue work I have argued  for a distinctly
Feminine notion of God in Baha u llah's experience .  I dont find
"esentialist " based notions of sexuality in His writing . What i do find are
 the use of metaphors which can justly be called erotic .  If we understand
that  everything in this world has its counterpart in the *other * world or
as Bahau llah says in Tablet of the Vision" that you may know that we have
worlds within this world ." Its all right here after all ; only  "veiled " .
This being the case it sems to me the  human body becomes a "'temple" . This
is are far cry from a male sexual impulse . Are you speaking of Baha u llah's
writing or the male response to it ? I dont know if you mean by that a drive
to overcome or conquer . Something seems encoded in your words that I dont
seem to be able to pick up .

  One thing I have learned from my more feminist friends is a  desire to
re-embody the feminine dimension and recover it from the male disembodied
perception of life . Truly the soul has no gender but that is not to say that
it does not contain *attributes * historically regarded as masculine or
feminine . I take it that both are present in every soul  and waiting to be
explored .

    As for the use of metaphor , Bahau lah's wrting strikes me as profoundly
*feminine * in so many places especially in His descriptions of the
Experience of God . Why would we get uneasy with the thought that the
Manifestation would use metaphors with an erotic cast to draw us to true
spirituality? If He describes any number of facets of life via metaphor why
does this one create such tension ?  Jacob needleman has a wonderful
statement about symbolism and metaphor in religious language . " for religion
to be transformative, its symbolically resonant forms must somehow stimulate
the actual processes of spiritual realization in human beings - these must be
conceptually satisfying and have sensory resonance as well . "

   I would suggest that the language of Baha u llah is so powerful and
potentially transformative because of the presence of both these dimensions -
conceptual and sensory.     What sense could a person make of Bahau llahs
statement that we would  ".. taste the abandonment of enraptured love ." if
there was no referent for it in human relationship ? This kind of statement
is not a platonic contemplation of abstract forms .  It is also not something
that has its origin in the world of the body . It may manifest itself in the
body but its origin and goal is beyond the body . It may be my own limitation
with language which makes it difficult to convey my experience of this .  I
am not speaking of a male fantasy . The experience is one of "heart surrender
" and a moment of reunion with the Divine Beloved which has  a palrty
counterpart in terms of huamn sexual reunion . Nonethe less my experience of
that reunion and "annihilation of self " is reminiscent of that human
encounter .  perhaps I need to make clearer that what I decided to describe
was not a day dream or a fantasy or a dream .  It was and is a very real
experience of my Beloved Who is both male and female if you will and soooo
much more .

     Any way I amgroping for words now  and find myself in the curious
position  of trying to explain the transformative power of Bahau llah's words
 ; trying to do something which He says in the Aqdas is about spiritual
worlds " which can neither be expressed in words nor intimated by allusion."
 perhaps my mistake was in attempting to put the experience  into words .

  warm regards ,
   Terry



=END=


From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:07:09 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Sen's Excellent question on Natural Law Part II

We're probably gonna have to come back on Q. #1 because there is a lot there
to cover. So I have decided to tackle #2. Hey, I just got back from working
out, its late again and I have ta get up at 4:30am.

#2. With regard to Augustine and Platonic thought. Nah. I really don't see
it. I do understand what you're getting at - with the *failed* aspect of Man
etc. There is certianly a strain in Plato that is, I would say at first
glance, pessimistic (but then a pessimist is what an optimist calls a
realist) but he isn't really. A casual reading of a few of the dialogues -
esp. Republic tend to give that impression. But it simply isn't so. Plato was
very much in line with the Faith regarding human nature. He knew that it
could be easily corrupted - but not because of any inherent evil - it was a
lack of true spiritual education. Primarily that is all the dialogues are
about anyway - what it is to really educate a human soul.

And while Augustine really liked Plato (as much as he could like a pagan) and
used a lot of platonic notions in his theology there is a vast difference
between the two when it comes to what constitutes the fundamentals of human
nature. Sure the concept of the Fall and the distant golden age is found in
every culture. And there was little doubt that Adam had really messed things
up. But never among the Jews and certainly among the earlier Christians,
including Origen and Clement of Alexandria do we find such a deeply
pessimistic view of humankind. Even Augustine's contemporaries such as John
Chrysostom and Pelagius esp. rejected out of hand Augustine's taking the Fall
to the bitter end. Here I have to agree with Pegals that Augustine's approach
to this issue and his readings of Paul were idiosyncratic. And Peter Brown's
excellent biography "Augustine of Hippo" doesn't do anything to lessen that
call. And as I said it took the Church nearly a century before accepting
Augustine's views. And of course you know how Augustine managed to have get
the imperial court's ear don't you? At one time he had sent to the pope 80
Numidian stallions so that no one would give ear to Pelagius's far more
logical and scripturally sound arguments.

Before Augustine it was recognized that while Man had fallen he was still
able to participate in his own redemption - by essentially turning to God and
struggling against his own lower desires to follow the Light. Augustine
banished this idea as nothing but folly and arrogance. We will not find that
attitude in Plato's philosophy or Plotinus'.

Again Sen I look forward to your comments here and I have got to say again
these are really solid questions. Wow. Thank you.

jim (who's muscles are yelling, "Enough with the lecturing for God sake! Give
us a break heeerrrre!!! Can we go lay down now PLEASE!! Oooyyy! Such a pain I
have . . .)

Alethinos@aol.com



=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:28:16 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: must depart
To: talisman@indiana.edu

---- Begin Forwarded Message
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Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu by ix11.ix.netcom.com
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
	id TAA29094; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:10:06 -0800
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu
(8.7.3/8.7.3/1.10IUPO) id VAA08628 for talisman-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb
1996 21:56:24 -0500 (EST)
My dear Linda
It is so easy to find victims we need to make it interesting for
ourselves so we do not become bored . But as the spiritual backbone of
Talisman we will go through the long list of applicants waiting to be
chosen. Of course who said that Linda's absence precludes us from
posting the truth of her various goings on. You file once with the IRS
they expect returns from space should we do less. We shall as the
occasion arises give due note of what our dear linda does.
We are of course saying prayers for her son after all it is not his
fault his mother wears Nija outfits in black and white lace.May your
son soon have some balance in his life so you can hurry back. Linda we
actually do love you and know what you and John must be going
through.May this moment pass with as little pain as possible.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut

>who will Derek and Burl kick around while I am gone?  Surely
>with all their talent, they will find a new victim.  Hope to be back
soon.
>Linda
>
   Mr. Burl and Uncle Derek will entreat the All-Mercifull with prayers
on
your behalf. As for a new victim, the vestibule is crowded with
applicants,
many addorned in anti-gravity docetic fashions, eager to display their
angst
amidst the aghast and agog (sequel to gog and magog)

Burl
>

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from  Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************






=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 09:23:38 +0100 (MET)
Subject: rights and natural law
To: talisman@indiana.edu


In my questions regarding natural law, I suggested that some rights,
such as the right to equal treatment and the right to express one's
individuality, are inherent rights rather than rights derived from
a natural duty. Thanks to Burl I think I can add a third natural right
to the list:

 "A full and rewarding sex life is the
natural right of every individual and
it is precisely for this reason that
the institution of marriage was created"
                             -- Shoghi Effendi.
  right on!
            |O|                 """"       <---note new haircut:
       ______\ \             .-'    `-.         Dunedinites would be
      (____     \           /   0  0   \          shocked
     (____        \--------(     oo     I
      (____     ____________\  (____)   }   <---note tongue in cheek
        (______/             `-.____.__/
                               ||||||||
                                 ||||

Question: does this natural right also create a duty?
I don't think so: it is like the right to express one's individuality,
it's a benefit rather than an obligation in any sense.

On the other hand, the right to equal treatment does create a duty -
others (notably kings and rulers and their various representatives)
have a duty to treat us equally - ie to provide us with what the right
implies (equal justice). But apply that model to the right
to a full and rewarding sex life, and you don't come up with anything
which supports the institution of marriage. So I guess you can't
generalize about natural rights.

Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn                           ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47                   email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
                                 ***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
                 and the individuality of each,
         thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------




=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:17:21 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: E.G. Browne and the Baha'i Faith.
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Dear Talismanians
There have been a variety of comments made about E.G. Browne and his
relationship with the Baha i Faith. Obviously whatever feelings a
person may have on the subject is their own and it is not for me to say
who is right or wrong. As I am I believe the only person on Talisman,
now that Moojan is not on the list, to have gone through all of
Browne s papers including his private correspondence. The private
correspondence only became available in 1992 and I was the first person
to examine it. So I can claim a degree of expertise in the field.
1: As far as the allegation that Browne was an agent of the British
Government. Well if you had read the letters that Browne wrote to and
the replies back the Foreign Office during World War One you would have
no doubts in that respect, one simple answer No. Browne in fact was
asked to prepare one of the blue books that were used at the Peace
Conference after the War. Due in part to that document Iran was not
divided up after the war. Browne was shocked beyond belief when he
discovered in 1917 the secret treaty that Grey s Government had Russia
. He used to give, during the Iranian Constitutional crisis,information
sent to him by former students, working in embassies the Middle and
Near East, to the Labor party and the Irish Party. These were posed at
Prime Minister s question times causing Grey s government intense
political embarrassment . However he had no knowledge of the secret
treaty as his personal letters and replies to in 1917 show.
He was disgusted that as , I believe he wrote, : How could His
Majesty s government have acted in this manner.
2: It was stated that  Browne was not a scholar or somehow failed to
pass muster. By what standard?, this man was fluent in reading writing,
speaking and translating in seven languages.Apart from the Persian
language, that most Baha is know about. His Arabic was actually
superior , he was equally conversant in Turkish. He actually developed
the Foreign Office s civil service Arabic examinations . He was: the
Thomas Adams Professor of Arabic at Cambridge.  His knowledge and love
of Persian literature and culture is beyond denial. His house in
Cambridge was  filled with Persian carpets and everything Iranian. Even
the stained glass window over the main entrance door of the Browne
house was Persian calligraphy and still remains to this day. His son
Sir Patrick Browne still has in his residence, outside Cambridge, many
of the items from his father that are from Iran.
His accomplishments which include what is still regarded as the
definitive work on the subject in many academic circles is: The
Literary History of Iran  this work which extents over four volumes is
a masterpiece by any standard. His interests were wide and varied,
towards the end of his life he developed an interest in the condition
of the Welsh people. Inside six months he had mastered the language
both verbal and written.
3. It is claimed he followed Azal I find no justification for that
statement. He recorded the passage of the Babi Faith and the evolution
into the Baha i Faith. Azal has a part in that, he should have had an
honorable role. As Baha is we believe he did not but he is part of the
history of the Cause. Browne discovered the Faith as the religion of
the Bab not the religion of Baha u llah. Thanks  to him the Faith
became known in Europe and North America. Do you really think it is a
small matter that the most prestigious academic body at that time in
the English speaking world in the arena of Asiatic studies. The Royal
Asiatic Society had two papers presented by Browne on the Faith from a
Babi aspect but still the Faith in 1889 , July and October of that
year.  Browne interviewed Azal in Cyprus prior to going to Bahji. I
suggest you read as see what changed him . I find no transformation
from meeting Azal . I do see a transformation from meeting the Blessed
Beauty. Browne in Bahji was exposed to a feeling of love and fellowship
crowned by meeting a Manifestation of God. Remember that Browne had his
audience with the Blessed Beauty in April 1890.
In 1891 he gave the first public presentation of the Faith in the
western world at South Place Institute in London before an audience of
1500 people. This was a lecture of some 10,000 words given at 4.00
o clock on Sunday Afternoon February 15th 1891.It was previous thought
the first mention of the Faith in a public or semi-public forum was to
the Literary society of Newcastle on Tyne by Browne in March 1889.
However the research I did uncovered an earlier presentation to the
Martlets in Cambridge on February 25th 1889. The reason the South Place
meeting is so important is that it was a true public lecture I have a
copy of the handbill that was given out for the lecture. It was part of
a series of lectures called; The Religious Systems of the World that
was published in January 1892 ran into several editions and was the
first mention of the Faith in a major book aimed at the general or
popular market. This was all in the lifetime of the Blessed Beauty and
Browne was responsible for it. Why did he not become a Baha i? After
the passing of Baha u llah he was subjected to letter after letter from
a whole variety of covenant  breakers. The statements made in those
letters are quite disgusting. Browne appears to have been confused and
saddened by this display of disunity from the covenant-breakers. You
might wish to ponder on the statement from the Master in His Will and
Testament in regard to the actions of Muhammad-Ali:. .and turned many a
seeker after truth aside from the Cause of God,...  E.G.Browne went to
Pure Light which was Baha u llah and after His passing was subjected to
the worse possible darkness. I am aware of Browne s desire to see Iran
rise up as a noble nation politically.
I know he sought a political route to achieve that end .
He was always a friend to Persians he petitioned the Shah when he was
in London to assist the Zoroastrians. I found that a number of young
Iranians Baha i and Muslim he personally paid for their education in
England. These were from families he had meet in Iran. He was a very
wealthy man and was generous to fault with it. He had problems in his
personal life prior to his marriage which was a very happy one. He had
two sons both of whom went on to have notable careers in England in the
law profession.
4.The Nuqtatu l-Kaf if one is to believe his private correspondence he
never understood why the Baha is , covenant-breakers etc were so much
against it. I do believe without going into the background of the
manuscript he wanted to ensure it did remain in existence. He had it
published as part of the Edward Gibb Memorial series by Brill. He was
responsible to the Gibb family for publishing academic works of
interest in their son s name. If you read his tribute to the Master
after his passing this was no enemy of the Faith. One Baha i scholar
the House of Justice lauded at his passing as the pre-eminent scholar ,
Hand of the Cause Hasan Balyuzi wrote of Browne: ...matchless amongst
his peers for his knowledge of Persia and Persian, a man of great charm
and learning,....... No Western scholar has ever equaled the effort of
Edward Granville Browne in seeking and preserving for generations to
come the story of the birth and the rise of a Faith which was destined,
as he foresaw at the onset of his distinguished career , to have a
significance comparable to that of the other great religions of
the world.  That is a more fitting mark of respect than some of the
comments i have noted on this list.

But for me the special moment is when he stood in Victorian London in
1891 and ended his lecture with:  but what I can not hope to have
conveyed to you is the terrible earnestness of these men, and the
indescribable influence which this earnestness , combined with other
qualities, exerts on anyone who has actually been brought in contact
with them. that you must take my words for, or else- The quote is in
Persian from the Divan of Shams
-i-Tabriz.
then translated into English:
 When thou seest in the path a severed head
   Which is rolling towards our field,
   Ask of it, ask of it our secrets,
   For from it thou may st hear our hidden mystery 


Whatever you may think of Browne, at that moment in time
 I sense a kindred soul.
Kindest regards
Derek Cockshut




=END=


Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 20:59:32 -0800
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi), talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Euthanasia

Arsalan, how dare you even think of that about your poor wife.     She is a
real sweetheart.     (chuckle)  GRIN!

I have one question, and that is "If suicide is against Bahai principles,
then euthanasia would be/ could be/ should be also against it.  We never
have to endure more than we can handle is what I understand.

But ( on a side note when my girlfriend went in for surgery--- major-- with
a 41 inch long cut, the doctors gave her methadone for pain...  it was the
same dosage as those used for the addiction of heroin.) Gads, she was fun!
And who is to say when we shall die when we have a terminal illness.  I have
seen cases where the patient is given 3 months only to die weeks later, and
a case where the husband had a heart attack,  a triple bypass, survives that
for 5 years, his wife has a heart attack with 4 bypasses and 4 weeks latter
she passes from a Massive heart attack, and the husband supposedly *healthy*
passes too just 5 days after his wife.

Just want you to know that we all love you very much, and we would be in
great pain if you did this.  We all care and love you deeply, and it would
hurt us greatly for you to take your own life--

Lots of Bahai Love,  Margreet



At 10:42 AM 1/30/96 -0900, Arsalan J. Sadighi wrote:
>Does anyone know if there has been any legislation or guidance from the
>House on the subject of euthanasia, or assisted suicide for those who are 1)
>terminally ill, AND 2) are in severe pain and suffering?
>Arsalan J. Sadighi
>
>
> "Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
>         that is clearly none of your business!"     Battista
>
>




=END=


From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:48:21 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: on endorsement

Tony writes:

>Baha'u'llah did endorse the system widely known as democracy.  He did this
>explicitly and repeatedly.  He particularly recommended the form of
>Government employed in England.  These quotations have been posted here.  I
>do not understand why they should be problematic.

The indisputable fact that Baha'u'llah recommended English parliamentary
democracy as having tremendous practical and moral advantages over the
absolutist monarchy ruling Persia in His day does not suffice to convice me
that Baha'u'llah would endorse any brand of modern liberal democracy as the
apex of human political evolution.

Moreover, every political ideology currently in practice, including that
called "democracy" by the vast majority of its adherents (which political
scientists call simply _liberalism_; or in a historical context, "classical
liberalism"; or for a broader audience, "Western liberal democracy") rests,
to varying degrees, on foundational principles that conflict with those
underlying the World Order that Baha'u'llah established.  It is often wise to
focus on the many points of agreement between liberalism (or other belief
systems) and Baha'i principles, but this does not mean we can ignore the
levels of principle on which they are incompatible.

Indeed, Shoghi Effendi explicitly stated that the standards of the Baha'i
Faith must not be confused with any system or theory conceived in the minds
of human beings.

This is why I cannot agree with any position stating that Baha'is can safely
align the Faith with any existing political ideology.  Our task is the
dauntingly long and difficult project of building a system better than any of
them.

Regards,
Kevin





=END=


From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:45:14 -0500
To: nightbrd@humboldt1.com, friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp, tan1@cornell.edu,
        talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia



>, I don't thinkconservative republicans have a better grasp of american
problems of poverty and governance than liberal democrats do. Aid to Families
with Dependent Children was a depression-era program designed for widows
which had unintended and unfortunate effects on family structure in
impoverished families of people impacted by racism in ghettos where black
people were forced to pay high rents for overcrowded tenement apartments, for
whites in appalachia et cetera. Also the racism of social workers
administering welfare has been notorious.  The war on poverty programs, such
as HeadStart have been effective to the degree that they have been funded and
supported. Of course, the other thing that happened in the last thirty years
is the continued flooding of the country with marijuana,heroin and cocaine.
Treatment has never been adequately supported. You can't hold back the ocean
with a spoon. Meanwhile the huge federal deficit was engineered by the Reagan
administration, which insisted on bizarre tax cuts.  Now, the foregoing may
be a bit one-sided, but I was raised by liberals. My father served as the
head of the Model Cities program for Lyndon Johnson in 66-68.He was disgusted
by the corruption of the Reagan era H.U.D. I appreciate your passion, Doug,
but I think you should know there are other ways to look at these things.
warm regards

david taylor



=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:18:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters 
To: talisman 
Subject: Sexual Imagery not just Male

In a couple of postings recently, Sandy has pointed out the "male" side
of Baha'i erotic imagery, which I think misses a significant part of
Baha'u'llah's writings. For example, she writes:

"...it is not surprising to see imagery of male sexuality used as a
vehicle to express the power and wonder of the act of approaching the
Manifestation" and "I was... raising the call for an approach to the
mystic side of the Faith which transcends sexuality--particularly male
sexual fantasy."

While it is obviously true that at least 2/3, or more, of the imagery is
from a male subject towards a female object, there are also writings which
are the reverse. Allow me to quote a couple:

The first is from Prayers and Meditations, page 126, in which Baha'u'llah
adopts for Himself the female persona: "I am one of Thy handmaidens, O my
Lord!  I have turned my face towards the sanctuary of Thy gracious favors
and the adored tabernacle of Thy glory.  Purify me of all that is not of
Thee, and strengthen me to love Thee and to fulfill Thy pleasure, that I
may delight myself in the contemplation of Thy beauty..."

The second is from John's recently posted "Tablet of the Deathless Youth"
translation, which includes the following: "Upon His face a veil woven by
the fingers of power and might.  Upon His head a crown of beauty... His
shoulders, black like musk upon bright and luminous pearls.... Upon his
right cheek a mole whereby the faiths of the mystics were shaken... He
came down from the pavilions of beauty and stood like the Sun at the
zenith of heaven, peerless and unique in His beauty." Many of these
images were common symbols in the Sufi tradition used to refer to feminine
beauty inspiring the potential for seeing the beauty of God. Schimmel in
_Mystical Dimension of Islam_ explores these symbols.

I therefore propose that Baha'u'llah has broken with the previous Sufi
tradition by reversing at times, and thus transcending, such gender
distinctions in erotic mystical imagery. If nothing else, we know that He
was not referring specifically to femininity when He used the word "Beauty,"
for is He not the "Ancient Beauty" Himself?

-Jonah

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527






=END=


Date: 02 Feb 96 03:34:07 EST
From: Riaz Missaghian <100257.713@compuserve.com>
To: Sadra 
Cc: Talisman 
Subject: In John's defense (Re: Sinaic Imagery)

Dear Nima,

I think you made a little mistake: _The Sacred and the Profane_ was written by
Mircea Eliade. It is among my favourite books and among the first ones we had to
read in our introductory course for comparative religion.

Rudolf Otto's famous book is called _The Idea of the Holy_.

Eliade, Mircea; _The Sacred and the Profane. The Nature of Religion._ New York:
Harcourt, Brace & World, 1959

Otto, Rudolf; _The Idea of the Holy: An Inquiry into the Non-Rational Factor in
the Idea of the Divine and Its Relation to the Rational._ 2nd ed., transl, by
John W. Harvey. New York: Oxford University Press, 1950

Fiona




=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 96 18:38:25 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg" 
To: Jonah Winters 
Cc: talisman 
Subject: Re: Sexual Imagery not just Male

> In a couple of postings recently, Sandy has pointed out the "male" side
> of Baha'i erotic imagery, which I think misses a significant part of
> Baha'u'llah's writings.

Dear Jonah:

Let me tread gingerly here, because I'm not Sandy.  Let me tell you what I
understood her to mean, as it is quite at variance with your interpretation
of her meaning.  Perhaps she will have to correct me . . .

When one employs the label "Baha'u'llah's erotic imaginary", I take
it to mean that one has already addressed the issue at an adolescent
male level.  One has taken something mystical, beautiful, and
spiritually compelling and sundered it into a kind of visual
"imagery", a plaything, a toy.

This is like looking at a beautiful women and thinking of her as
a sex object, rather than as a person, a characteristic of
undisciplined male sexuality.

In contrast, feminine sexuality is not a divisive, sundering
off of all other aspects of life.  It is much more natural, nutritive,
understanding that sexuality and giving birth and the joys of raising
children and the happiness of family are all linked together, and can
not be broken apart.  It is *not* shear biology.

Spiritual logic, as Juan contrasts in his Poetics article, is
different than ordinary "masculine" logic.  It is feminine, and
this is why there is the *Maid* of Heaven.  I think that she is
urging us to not reduce Her to, of all things, mere erotic imagery.

This may be more of me than of her, but I think I've got the drift
right!

Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg

P.S. About words.  Some of us are more sensitive than others about
their connotations, perhaps.  The word "erotic", because of its
overuse and strong associations with the sordid underside of our
culture, strikes a cruel blow at my soul when associated with the
marvelously beautiful Writings of Baha'u'llah that Professor
Walbridge has translated and gifted us with.

Could you please find another word?  If there is a serious
problem, just ask Dr. Burl!



=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 01:42:54 -0800
To: Dave10018@AOL.COM, friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp, tan1@cornell.edu,
        talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia

Dear Dave,

You said:

>>, I don't thinkconservative republicans have a better grasp of american
>problems of poverty and governance than liberal democrats do.

In some respects you are right.  In America today both sides are at a loss
for the real
answers to the problems.  That is where the Faith has something to offer and
why we
need to figure out for ourselves just what that is so we can offer it ---
the reading of
any of the letters from the Universal House of Justice in the last few years
indicates
as much.

> Aid to Families
>with Dependent Children was a depression-era program designed for widows
>which had unintended and unfortunate effects on family structure in
>impoverished families of people impacted by racism in ghettos where black
>people were forced to pay high rents for overcrowded tenement apartments, for
>whites in appalachia et cetera.

True, and FDA food stamps was to help the farmer by paying him for surplus food
and *not* intended for welfare for the poor --- that was then but not now.

> Also the racism of social workers
>administering welfare has been notorious.  The war on poverty programs, such
>as HeadStart have been effective to the degree that they have been funded and
>supported.

Headstart is the *one* shinning spot on the checkered social programs of the
last 50
years.  From 1976 - 1986, until I moved to Denver and from 1991 - 1994, when I
moved to California, I was on the Board of Directors of the Tri-County Headstart
Program in Southwest Colorado.  I was fortunate enough to be involved with
one of
the cutting edge programs in the country.  Tri-County is known as a leader and
innovator in all aspects of Headstart.  They continually get letters requesting
information on how they do so well what they do.  The staff members are the
center
of attention whenever they travel to conferences.  Private and federal
trainers across
Region 8 and the entire country ask them for information on how to function
better.
The reason they are so good is because they are a grassroots up
organization.  They
have to deal with the blizzard of federal paperwork and operate in a very strict
format --- yet they don't let anything hinder them from providing the best
service
possible to their charges --- the children and families --- and it is
remarkable that they
have one of the best records of family involvement and the raising of the
families out
of poverty through education.  That is their key --- they educate the whole
family ---
not just the children.  I've seen the good and bad of it all through my
tenure with
them.  (When I was president of the Board, [I held every office but
treasurer for
several years each] I had to testify in Federal Court in Denver in the case
of a teacher
who was fired who had charged age and race discrimination.  After the Judge
heard
the case he didn't let it go to the jury.  He gave a directed verdict
because there was
no substantial case presented and when our attorney polled the jury they
said they
would have found in Tori-County's favor if it had gone to them.  Tori-County's
Insurance carrier wanted to settle out of court but the Board would not
because it
had nothing wrong --- they stood on principle.)

>Of course, the other thing that happened in the last thirty years
>is the continued flooding of the country with marijuana,heroin and cocaine.
>Treatment has never been adequately supported. You can't hold back the ocean
>with a spoon.

How true.  And just where did the all the hew and cry to decriminalize marijuana
and allow people to have the freedom to use recreational drugs like LSD,
mushrooms, peyote, and cocaine come from?  Should we look to the left or the
right?

> Meanwhile the huge federal deficit was engineered by the Reagan
>administration, which insisted on bizarre tax cuts.

Whoa bro'!  Reagan brought the best decade of material prosperity this
country has
had in this century.  (by the way I did *not* vote for him either time)
What drove
up the debt was the *entitlements* --- everything from Headstart (as good as
Tori-County was they have to spend every cent on *something* each year or
they get
less next year --- it was impossible to save the system any money) to
Medi-care (Do
you know that some 70% of a person's health cost through their entire life
occur in
the *last* 6 months of their life?  Who picks up that tab --- you and me.)  When
Reagan dropped the rate of the capital gains tax rate money flowed into the
treasurery.  And do you know who benefited the most from the capital gains
tax cut?
It was the *middle* income taxpayer, those in the $40K to $60K range.  The
one who
had held on to stocks, houses, or other investments, sold them and spurred the
economy.  (And consider that I, who have worked at the bottom of the labor
force all
my life made the most money I've ever made in the "disgusting" '80s --- 3
years $20K
to $24K and 2 years $30K each --- man, I was in hog heaven! This country by felt
gooooood! )

> Now, the foregoing may
>be a bit one-sided, but I was raised by liberals. My father served as the
>head of the Model Cities program for Linden Johnson in 66-68.He was disgusted
>by the corruption of the Reagan era H.U.D. I appreciate your passion,

I agree the corruption is bad, but everyone has their hands in it --- both
sides are
*tainted*, to put it nicely.

> Doug,
>but I think you should know there are other ways to look at these things.

I *do* look at things from as many aspects as possible.  When I was younger
(being a
dottering old 49 now)  I thrived on taking the opposite side in any discussion
because it enabled me to learn why others thought as they did.  I
challenged, they
responded,
I learned.  Before labels are handed out to each of us (and the *only* label
I now put
on me is *Baha'i*) consider that in 1965-6 I successfully and legally
avoided the draft,
twice, to fight in civil war in Vietnam, in 1968 I voted for Eldridge
Cleaver and the
Peace and Freedom Party in the Presidential election --- in Arizona --- only
one of
three in my white and hispanic precinct, that I voted for Jimmy Carter,
twice, never
for Richard Nixon, never for Ronald Reagan, and I did vote for Bill Clinton
as a *new
Democrat* --- which he did not live up to.  In fact, the Republicans have
carried on
much of what Mr. Clinton ran on, but will he support his own ideas?  No,
because it
comes from the opposition.  (It is reminiscent of when Mr. Roosevelt was
elected in
1932.  Back then the Presidency did not change hands until March, I think.  Mr.
Hoover, in a magnanimous gesture offered to do anything Mr. Roosevelt wanted
done in an effort to ease the burden on the people of the country.  But
would Mr.
Roosevelt accept the offer?  No way!  Out of selfish political desire he
waited until he
was sworn in --- it had to be under *his* direction and under in *his*
name.)  This
time I will vote for the Republican --- even if they put up a corpse --- he
couldn't do
any worse.  As a Baha'i,  I would never call a sitting President a
congenital liar ---
BUT if Mr. Clinton and I were in the same room and he told me the sun was
shining
I would go to the window and find out for myself.

No, the Republicans are not any better than the Democrats in the long run
--- but in
the short run they want to devolve the power of the government back to the
governed.  After 50 years of *big brother* knowing what is best for us we
need to
wake up.  While I in no way equate the Republican Party with the ideals of the
Baha'i Faith, at least consider this:  that the goal of the Faith is to make
the lives of
all the people of the world better, for the first time in the history of the
world, by
engaging them in the decisions that will effect their and their families
lives.  Read
and study the "Prosperity of Humankind" and tell me it ain't so.

>warm regards
>
>david taylor

Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives."  JB

PS.  As a friend of mine says, "Everybody has buttons that set them off, and
you just
pushed one of mine."  I apologize if I came on too strong and strident.  I'm
still in
transition from the "old world order" to the New World Order.




=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:01:06 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry 
To: Sadra 
Cc: "[G. Brent Poirier]" ,
        Talisman 
Subject: Re: In John's defense (Re: Sinaic Imagery) and otto

i guessed you might have mixed texts and authors.
i also recomenend baron von hugels writings on the holy and spirituality!
robert



=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu,  1 Feb 96 18:09:06 PST
Subject: FW: Docetism
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Dear Nime,

I don't want what you've said about docetism to be true. First let me
quote you and then let me tell you why.



On Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:10:31 -0700 (MST)  Sadra wrote:

>Stephen, *docetism* is considered an early church heresy which holds
that
>the human nature of christ to have been completely illusory.
Therefore
>christ's suffering and death on the cross was a sham staged by God
>Himself (or, according some Gnostic groups, as an illusion concocted
by
>the evil demiurge), since the logos is divine and cannot suffer nor
be
>killed.

, therefore Christ did not have a humanity as
>such,

snip

 Some have called Terry's hypostasial model of Baha'u'llah's
>nature -- i.e. Mirza Husayn-`Ali -> Baha'u'llah -> BAHA"U"LLAH (The
>Maiden) -- as docetistic. I agree, but I think it also explains a
lot. I
>guess one can say that the life of each Manifestation in many ways
>exhibits a divine comedy; the concept of docetism is one way to
explain
>why this is so.
>
>Regards,
>Nima


There was a passage in Gleanings, I think, and I remember than when I
read it I wept because it touched me so.  I was going through another
one of my "difficult times." (Sigh, in rememberance)  ;>p

And I read this. It was about how when the Manifestation learned
about something we had done that cause shame to come upon us, the
Manifestaton wept.

And I was so relieved to learn this because it meant that there was a
kind of direct empathic compassion for me and my own suffering, that
it really matters at the highest, or deepest, levels what happened to
me.

And, I guess, I think of the suffering of Christ in the same way. It
was not the physical pain, but rather His compassionate
identification and sympathy with the general lostness and confusion
of humanity with results in the harm we inflict on each other and
ourselves -- it was this that made Christ suffer at the crucifiction.

The lesson is that Divinity is no protection against suffering.

This is important, I think, because in my less mature days, (I hope
I'm right about this) I felt that, when I become holier and more
spiritual I won't suffer so much. But it's not so.  The quality of
suffering has changed.

But it feels presumptuous for me to pursue this theme further right
now. I've said enough.

Thanks for the opportunity to work this piece out.

Love,

Philip

BTW

I did an anagram on Philip Alan Belove and it came out

Livable plain hope.  Very nice, I thought.

-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/01/96
Time: 18:09:06

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein




=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu,  1 Feb 96 18:22:49 PST
Subject: RE: Ethics Materials... (fwd)
To: Talisman ,
        "[G. Brent Poirier]" ,
        Miguel Watler 

I am teaching a course called Principles of Communications and could
use some of the same materials and would appreciate having them
forwarded to me as well.

I am sorry I haven't any of my own to offer right now, but I'd be
interested in being networked with other teachers and perhaps
becoming part of some internet pool to develop this.

Would it be possible for someone like Mark, who seems to know how to
do this, or John, or someone , to set up a newsgroup with the very
limited aim of circulating teaching materials and class designs?


On Wed, 31 Jan 1996 21:57:49 -0700 (MST)  [G. Brent Poirier] wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: 31 Jan 1996 15:35:29 -0500
>From: Miguel Watler 
>To: bahai-faith@bcca.org
>Newgroups: soc.religion.bahai
>Subject: Ethics Materials...

>I am looking for such material on the following two topics:
>
>   Consultation and Conflict Resolution
>   Marriage and Family Life
>
>We have already found material on the topics of Business Ethics from
a
>statement put out by the European Baha'i Business Forum, and on
Alcohol,
>Narcotics and Drug Abuse from material from Dr. Ghadirian.
>
>I know of some excellent material on Baha'i Marriage and Family
Life, but
>they are directed towards Baha'is, and would not be appropriate.
>
>Looking forward to your suggestions,
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Miguel Watler                           "The source of all good is
trust in
>Cracow University of Technology (E-2)    God, submission unto His
command,
>31-155 Cracow Poland                     and contentment in His holy
will
>e-mail: pewatler@kinga.cyf-kr.edu.pl     and pleasure."      -
Baha'u'llah.
>
>
>

-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/01/96
Time: 18:22:49

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein




=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:30:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Scorsese and the Failed "Casino"
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Burl  Barer" , "Talisman" 

Jerry Lewis is like snails--an aquired taste--one I've been unable to
acquire.  I did, however, love him in "The King of Comedy" another work
of genius!

Richard

Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:20:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Casino" a work of Art
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Talisman" 

Dear Talismanists,

My conclusions regarding Martin Scorsese's work "Casino" found =
disfavor in the eyes of Mark Bamford.  On one level I completely =
agree with him, but my approach was "Casino" as a work of art and my =
assessment was solely on that basis.  The demands of art criticism =
require an appreciation of a work in and of itself.

Having said that,  I would like to draw another distiction, that =
being, the difference between Film Theorists and Film Critics.  The =
Film Theorists are writing about the language of the cinema and are =
influenced by Goddard and the "new wave".  The Critics of the Cahiers =
du Cinema (among which Godard was pre-eminent) were among the first =
critics to treat film as works of art and comment on film the way one =
comments on Painting or Poetry. In Baseline's Encyclopedia of Film =
the history of the Cahiers du Cin=E9ma is briefly out lined as =
follows:


"Cahiers du Cin=E9ma was, if not the first, certainly the most =
influential of serious film journals. Four years after forming La =
Revue du Cin=E9ma in 1947, critic and theorist Andr=E9 Bazin, along =
with Jacques Doniol-Valcroze, renamed the magazine  Cahiers du =
Cin=E9ma. The group of young film enthusiasts who wrote for the =
magazine=8Bincluding future New Wave directors Jean-Luc Godard, =
Fran=E7ois Truffaut, Claude Chabrol, Eric Rohmer, and Jacques =
Rivette=8Bproceeded to reevalute and redefine film criticism. =
Although editor Bazin's opinions=8Bmost notably his steadfast support =
of mise-en-sc=E8ne oriented cinema=8Binfluenced the articles, =
differing opinions soon emerged. In "Montage, Mon Beau Souci" (No. =
65, December 1956), Godard opposes Bazin, arguing for montage over =
mise-en-sc=E8ne. Nonetheless, the  Cahiers writers of the 1950s and =
early 1960s were united in their championing of film art and their =
appreciation of film artists.
After the popular uprising in France in May 1968, the  Cahiers =
editors called for a new political dimension in film journalism that =
would confront the inherently political nature of film itself. (Bazin =
was not part of this group, having died in 1958.) Examples of the new =
approach included collectively written texts such as John Ford's =
Young Mr. Lincoln (1969). The magazine has published more than 400 =
issues and, though no longer as influential as it was, remains a =
forum for incisive, intelligent film criticism."

Film Critics such as "Siskel and Ebert" serve their own purpose and =
their reactions are, for the most part, personal not critical.  =
Jean-Luc Godard, Susan Sontag and others have been suggesting that =
art must create a distance between the art work and the observer and =
this is certainly at the base of his film theory.  Martin Scorsese =
uses the "language" of violence to create that distance.  He paints =
with various hues of violence, betrayal, and love never realized, to =
give being to his art work.  Scorsese has certain narrative elements =
and stylistic flourishes that characterize his works.  Like the =
painter he has periods for his work and reoccuring themes.  =
Naturally, his work is flawed--that's what makes it beautiful--even =
if it is a beauty we would prefer not to see.

Richard

Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:14:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Anatomy of Antiliberalism




I had earlier suggested that it might be useful to review Stephen Holmes'
book, "The Anatomy of Antiliberalism."  There are obviously both liberal
and antiliberal sentiments in the Baha'i Faith, but at least we should be
able to separate out which strand is which.  Let me back up and restate
my main theses.

I have suggested that we can see political thought on a graph, determined
by two variables:  the distribution of power and the distribution of
wealth (sociologists such as Weber and C. Wright Mills would add the
distribution of status, but that makes the graph three dimensional and it
is not a variable I care about here).


Thus, if 1 represents more equal distribution and 5 represents
concentration of these values, you could map most major systems this way:



wealth

5 libertarianism

              Liberal		    Absolute monarchy
	     democracy		     fascism

4


3


2             social
    	     democracy

1  anarcho-
  syndacalism
				    communism

Power	1	2	3	4	5




The movements situated on the far right of the scale have highly
concentrated systems of power that are dictatorial in nature; the
movements on the left of the scale have more dispersed arrangements for
power sharing, whether democratic or even tending to anarchy.  The
movements at the top of the scale concentrate wealth in a few hands,
while the movements toward the bottom seek a lesser degree of wealth
stratification.

I myself believe that there is support in the Baha'i writings for social
democracy as the best form of governance; that is, the government should
be democratic in nature, allowing for popular input into decision-making,
and it should be concerned to redistribute wealth to avoid it becoming
highly concentrated so as to leave large numbers of persons in poverty.
(In the U.S., 1% of the population owns 40% of the privately held wealth,
while 15% are  in poverty.  The latter number would be far higher were it
not for social security--the elderly used to be the poorest group in
society--and programs like Aid to Families with Dependent
Children--poor children in this program have higher IQ scores than those
not in it, e.g.  Current politics in the U.S. seems aimed at
concentrating wealth even more highly and pushing even more people into
poverty.  Since politics has become hostage to big money, this agenda can
be pushed even though it benefits--like the flat tax--only the very wealthy.)


I have been criticized for allowing only a few possible forms of
political economy.  However, if political economy is in fact determined
by the distribution of wealth and the distribution of power (as I believe
it is), then *any* system would have to fall somewhere on my
two-dimensional graph.  This is true of non-governmental organizations,
as well, though that is a more difficult case.  The Roman Catholic
church, where ecclesiastical appointments are top down and substantial
local monies flow to the Vatican, would be in the upper right-hand corner
of my graph.

As for going beyond liberal forms and liberties, while acknowledging
Baha'u'llah's and `Abdu'l-Baha's commitment to them, I'm from Missouri.
Show me.  I think the possibility has to be kept in mind that political
liberties are like a chair with four legs.  If you saw off one of the
legs to "improve it," the whole thing may become unstable and collapse.
The major alternatives to political Liberalism (and I do not mean the
word in the current US sense) in this century, communism and fascism,
both represented themselves as key improvements over the latter, and both
proved unable to compete with liberalism, not to mention their rather
unpleasant record of killing millions of innocent people.  Baha'is who
wish to "go beyond" Liberal liberties should be cautious, given this
historical record of the 20th century.  Even my hobby horse, social
democracy, has not competed very well lately, though we are far from
moribund (in power in Israel, poised for a comeback in the UK, the major
alternative to a failed Gaullism in France; even Germany could yet come
our way).

All of these forms of political economy have had their advocates and
detractors, including those in the upper righthand corner, which I
despise.  Next time I will discuss de Maistre, who attempted to uphold
this sort of political economy.


cheers   Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan



=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:41:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: E.G. Browne and the Baha'i Faith.
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Derek Cockshut" ,
        "Talisman" 

Dear Derek,

>: It was stated that  Browne was not a scholar or somehow failed to
>pass muster. By what standard?,

I believe I argued that his "approach" to evaluating the Babi-Baha'i =
Movement was flawed and I carefully reasoned this.  Not based on his =
intellect, Knowledge of Languages, nor any of the things you list =
below:

>. He was: the
>Thomas Adams Professor of Arabic at Cambridge.  His knowledge and love
>of Persian literature and culture is beyond denial. His house in
>Cambridge was  filled with Persian carpets and everything Iranian. Even
>the stained glass window over the main entrance door of the Browne
>house was Persian calligraphy and still remains to this day. His son
>Sir Patrick Browne still has in his residence, outside Cambridge, many
>of the items from his father that are from Iran.
>His accomplishments which include what is still regarded as the
>definitive work on the subject in many academic circles is: =EBThe
>Literary History of Iran=ED this work which extents over four volumes is
>a masterpiece by any standard.

Derek if you believe these things you listed place him beyond the =
biases I listed I think you are sadly mistaken.  I don't expect that =
any one can seriously argue that his conclusions were not present in =
his hypothesis.

Richard


Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:42:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Johnson 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: KI pp. 33-35


     And now, concerning His words--"The sun
shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give
light, and the stars shall fall from heaven."  By the
terms "sun" and "moon," mentioned in the writings
of the Prophets of God, is not meant solely the
sun and moon of the visible universe.  Nay rather,
manifold are the meanings they have intended for
these terms.  In every instance they have attached
to them a particular significance.  Thus, by the
"sun" in one sense is meant those Suns of Truth
Who rise from the dayspring of ancient glory, and
fill the world with a liberal effusion of grace from
on high.  These Suns of Truth are the universal
Manifestations of God in the worlds of His attributes
and names, even as the visible sun that assisteth,
as decreed by God, the true One, the
Adored, in the development of all earthly things,
such as the trees, the fruits, and colours thereof,
the minerals of the earth, and all that may be witnessed
in the world of creation, so do the divine
Luminaries, by their loving care and educative influence,
cause the trees of divine unity, the fruits of
His oneness, the leaves of detachment, the blossoms
of knowledge and certitude, and the myrtles of
wisdom and utterance, to exist and be made manifest.
Thus it is that through the rise of these Luminaries
of God the world is made new, the waters
of everlasting life stream forth, the billows of loving-kindness
surge, the clouds of grace are gathered,
and the breeze of bounty bloweth upon all
created things.  It is the warmth that these Luminaries
of God generate, and the undying fires they
kindle, which cause the light of the love of God to
burn fiercely in the heart of humanity.  It is
through the abundant grace of these Symbols of
Detachment that the Spirit of life everlasting is
breathed into the bodies of the dead.  Assuredly
the visible sun is but a sign of the splendour of that
Day-star of Truth, that Sun Which can never have
a peer, a likeness, or rival.  Through Him all
things live, move, and have their being.  Through
His grace they are made manifest, and unto Him
they all return.  From Him all things have sprung,
and unto the treasuries of His revelation they all
have repaired.  From Him all created things did
proceed, and to the depositories of His law they
did revert.
     That these divine Luminaries seem to be confined
at times to specific designations and attributes,
as you have observed and are now observing,
is due solely to the imperfect and limited comprehension
of certain minds.  Otherwise, they have
been at all times, and will through eternity continue
to be, exalted above every praising name, and
sanctified from every descriptive attribute.  The
quintessence of every name can hope for no access
unto their court of holiness, and the highest and
purest of all attributes can never approach their
kingdom of glory.  Immeasurably high are the
Prophets of God exalted above the comprehension
of men, who can never know them except by their
own Selves.  Far be it from His glory that His
chosen Ones should be magnified by any other than
their own persons.  Glorified are they above the
praise of men; exalted are they above human understanding!



=END=


From: "QUANTA  DAWNLIGHT" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date:          Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:02:07 EST
Subject:       Tablet to Physician

Esteemed Scholars,

In a translation of Tablets of Baha'u'llah p. 167 from the original by
M. Inan in Turkish language, 1974 (authorized?) Title in turkish is-
Hz. Baha'u'llah'in Levihleri_
it is stated (unauthorized translation by Quanta from Turkish)
"Say: Oh friends! Fear,(anxiety distress) and pain is expected (or
becoming of) women." Speaking to man??
In Turkish translation it is stated:
"De ki: Ey Dostrlar! Korku ve istirap kadina yakisir"

Could anyone shed some light on this translation either from Arabic,
Persian or English, please?? Thank you for your attention to this
matter.

lovingly,
Quanta





=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:40:10 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: E.G. Browne and the Baha'i Faith.
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Dear Talismanians
I was not aware that the posting I received from Richard was blind
copied to Talisman. I can not recall my precise reply however thr
following will do.
Richard has not read the breadth of Browne's published work nor any of
his research papers and private correspondence. Browne did not approach
any of his work in the three academic fields he did research and
published in with the arrogance of a 19th and early 20th century
European orientalist. He was a uniques figure to whom the Faith owes
much including collection of orginal material which now resides in the
Cambridge University Library and could have been lost or destroyed or
damaged.I pointed out to Richard, Browne was not writing his doctorate
on the Faith and a hypothesis by it is very nature contains the
elements of the conclusions. The obscession of some in the Baha'i
Community of finding ways to vilify Brownes academic reputation and
memory is sad, wrtong and frankly unjust.I notice a great amount of
quoting the pen picture of the Blessed Beauty by Browne often by the
same people who attack him. You really have to look into the published
work of the man to gain and understanding of the excellence of his mind
and the variety of his studies and scholarship. In my orginal post I
was trying to answer a series of postings not suggesting to Richard
that Browne's great love of and collection of Persian items was a key
to his abilities as a scholar which was the thrust of Richard's. My
point back to Richard that by not having access or researching Browne's
papers he is in no position to make definitive statements on Browne's
supposed biases, in fact by basing his opinions largely from Hasan
Balyuzi's book on Browne his own augment is flawed. Hasan Balyuzi did
not have access to Browne's private papers if he did he would have had
a much wider view of Browne as he would have been the first to say.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut

Dear Derek,

>: It was stated that  Browne was not a scholar or somehow failed to
>pass muster. By what standard?,

I believe I argued that his "approach" to evaluating the Babi-Baha'i =
Movement was flawed and I carefully reasoned this.  Not based on his =
intellect, Knowledge of Languages, nor any of the things you list =
below:

>. He was: the
>Thomas Adams Professor of Arabic at Cambridge.  His knowledge and love

>of Persian literature and culture is beyond denial. His house in
>Cambridge was  filled with Persian carpets and everything Iranian.
Even
>the stained glass window over the main entrance door of the Browne
>house was Persian calligraphy and still remains to this day. His son
>Sir Patrick Browne still has in his residence, outside Cambridge, many

>of the items from his father that are from Iran.
>His accomplishments which include what is still regarded as the
>definitive work on the subject in many academic circles is: =EBThe
>Literary History of Iran=ED this work which extents over four volumes
is
>a masterpiece by any standard.

Derek if you believe these things you listed place him beyond the =
biases I listed I think you are sadly mistaken.  I don't expect that =
any one can seriously argue that his conclusions were not present in =
his hypothesis.

Richard


Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++







=END=


From: belove@SOVER.NET
Date: Sun,  4 Feb 96 09:52:46 PST
Subject: Internet query
To: talisman@indiana.edu


Dear all,

I have an internet address here in a format I've never seen.
Does any one have any experience with this format? What should I do?
It is copied off a business card.

The address looks like this

      Dialcom 141:QNI3601


It doesnt have an "@" in it. And I don't know where to put the name.

Any advice?

Philip

-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/04/96
Time: 09:52:46

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein




=END=


From: alma@indirect.com
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 23:30:57 -0700
To: jwalbrid , Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Talisman email feed

Sorry to take up bandwidth but I wonder if this is broken.  I have received
no email from the list in the last twenty-four hours, not even the one I
sent to it earlier.  I have received other email though and can send it. If
I have somehow become unsubscribed, I would appreciate being readded to the
list as quickly as possible.

Thanks,
Alma

 To tread the path of Love                Alma Engels
          Is no mere game.                alma@indirect.com
          For only one
          Out of many thousands
          Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)




=END=


From: "Mark A. Foster" 
Subject: Returned mail: User unkn
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 01:21:26 -0600 (CST)

To: talisman@indiana.edu

 John,

 Sorry to bother you with this, but I have not received any Talisman
 postings in the last 24 hours. Is there a problem with the server, or is
 something wrong on my end? If it is on my end, could you please use the
 approve command to change my subscription address (for the time being) from:

 mfoster@tyrell.net

 to:

 mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us

 Thanks .

 Mark (Foster)

    P.S. John, I tried sending you this message privately, but I
received an error message.









=END=


Date: 03 Feb 96 21:23:18 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To: 
Subject: Brevity Soul Wit; Stop

Dear Talismanians,

Two quick things:  first, I wanted to congratulate the assembled
Talismanians for the generally high level of scholarship, insight,
wisdom and even brevity we seem to have lapsed into lately.  So few
posts, so much hikmat.

On the other hand, someone just told me that we appear to have a small
computer glitch, and many more messages wait in the queue to get
through.  Sigh.  If only we could maintain this level of communication
for a while...

And on a completely different subject -- the male dominance of erotic
imagery in the Faith's and in other mystical writings -- I wanted to
react to the feminist/masculinist, Sandy/Tony debate, but I was stopped
dead in my tracks by Stephen Friberg's term *shear biology.*

Now, this is simply going too far.  I can understand the feminist point
of view, but keep those big scissors away from me, please.

Love,

David




=END=


From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 22:56:38 -0500
To: nightbrd@humboldt1.com, friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp, tan1@cornell.edu,
        talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia

In a message dated 96-02-03 14:27:35 EST, nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
writes:

>Subj:	Re: status quo and utopia
>Date:	96-02-03 14:27:35 EST
>From:	nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
>To:	Dave10018@aol.com, friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp, tan1@cornell.edu,
>talisman@indiana.edu
>
>Dear Dave,
>
>You wrote:
>
>>The letters from the House and its agencies (such as the Baha'i
>International
>>Community) on peace and, more recently, prosperity, do indeed provide the
>>model for Baha'i constructive engagement. We should stay aloof from
partisan
>>disputes, and I only reacted because of the partisan tone of your letter
and
>>your lack of sympathy for people who I have known for many years and know
to
>>be working in good faith. I do not doubt the sincerity of many who feel
that
>>the best course for this country is to trust in the workings of "unbridled
>>capitalism," though I doubt the wisdom of such a course and can point to
>> reservations expressed by the Gaurdian and the House.
>
>I apologize if the tone was partisan.  I tried to make it as neutral as
>possible but
>failed.  As to "unbridled Capitalism":  I, too, feel it is an untenable
>position.

"Unbridled capitalism" of course means to let" the market", i.e. private
enterprise, operate with minimal "interference" from social constraint,
especially government regulation.

 The
>"Prosperity" statement does encourage and secure the ownership of private
>property.

Absolutely. Baha'u'llah endorsed private property and the right to earn a
fair rate of interest. (sorry no citations at the moment,this is from memory)

 I think that when the full potential of economic development
>occurs it will be through the arena of the small business owner.  Look at
>our economy now.  Even though we are effected (often badly) by *huge*
>companies, conglomerates, and mlti-nationals the majority of Americans are
>employed by small companies (under 100 employees).

We can agree that small business is important, although I think the impact of
large firms is complex and, as you note, not in all ways bad.(for instance,
many, probably most of those small firms are suppliers or provide ancillary
services such as lunches to those same large firms.) On the other hand,
"small business" in American politics is something of a mythic image, like
motherhood and apple-pie, and used to support all kinds of proposals of
questionable use to small-business owners, whose sense of their won interest
may not always be accurate.  I think the full measure of economic development
will occur 1.when we realize we have world peace(in a few years)2.when we do
more to eliminate the extremes of wealth and poverty and 3. as we come to
appreciate each other more fully and to discover hidden meanings in
everything, sparking trade(a zany notion, I know) Large firms like IBM and
microsoft will continue to rise and fall (microsoft is how old?15 years?) and
ideas of cooperation and competition will continue to develop on a global
basis. After all, the principles of management which proved so successful in
Japan were largely developed at Harvard.
>> As I said before, my father served in the Johnson administration. For
>>two years he gave speeches all over the country as well as administering an
>>innovative program designed to require local government and community
>>activists to form common plans to attack a broad range of urban problems.
>>This took a lot of wrestling with conflicting interests and political
>>agendas, but produced some effective programs, pilot programs which were
>>never fully funded after 1968. When my father gave a written speech he was
>>required by admistration policy to defend the Vietnam war!  To avoid
>>mentioning the war, he gave all of his speeches for two years as
>>"off-the-cuff-remarks" rather than as written speeches.
>
>It is unfortunate that there aren't more people like him in government.
>
Oh but there are! Why do you think there aren't?  Several are members of my
family, but I have known and know of many others, and there really is such a
thing as an ethic of service in government. Particularly among people who
think government has a legitimate role in the ameliorization of social
problems. People who think otherwise sometimes make poor public servants, or
sling mud at people who do.
>>>  And just where did the all the hew and cry to decriminalize
>>>marijuana
>>>and allow people to have the freedom to use recreational drugs like LSD,
>>>mushrooms, peyote, and cocaine come from?  Should we look to the left or
>the
>>>right?
>>
>>Such "hue and cry" has come from the fringes, anarchist left and
libertarian
>>right.
>
>If it was from the "frings" how did Colorado, among others, decriminalize
>marijuana?  The Alaska Supreme Court even ruled that an individual could
>legally grow enough for personal use --- though they have since reversed
>themselves --- but it is still decriminalized.
Alaska and Colorado are two small states(in terms of population) on the
fringes of American political life.Legalization and decriminalization are two
different things. Marijuana use in small amounts  has been decriminalized
either in law or in practice in much of America simply because too many
people use it to stop them. The main proponents of legalization are
libertarians.IMV the proper response is to emphasize prevention and recovery
through spiritual means.(12 step programs fulfil this function quite well.
This way the lesson of turning away from materialism(use of a substance to
create feelings of happiness and sociability while one's real life slides
into chaos is the ultimate materialism ) can be learned to great social
benefit. In my view drugs should not be legalized but the emphasis must shift
from punitive to therapeutic intervention, as much against alcohol as any
other abused substance.
>> A few mayors, such as Curt Shmoke of Baltimore, have recently
>>advocated decriminalization in the attempt to put more money into
treatment,
>>which is far more effective than the "war on drugs," but this is a recent
>>development. Other than him, who are the prominant commentators calling for
>>decriminalization? Oh yeah, William Buckley, what a liberal!
>
>As more and more inteligent people are these days.  If I wasn't a Baha'i I
>would be in fovor of legalizing *all* drugs --- it would cut down on the
>violance and theift related to the current drug scene.
>
So, you join the "hue and cry"!   I don't know, lets see what happens with
legalized gambling! There is a lot of violence and theft related to alcohol
and to gambling already.
>>All of this [Regan, taxes, etc. DM] is quite debatable. The point is that
>you should be careful not
>>to imagine that people who don't agree are insincere, dishonest, stupid or
>>crazy. I promise to do the same.
>
>I agree and as I said in a private email: Since history is an art, not a
>science, and history is in the eye of the beholder let us agree to disagree.
>
>>This [comments on my voting history - DM] does not mark you as a discerning
>student of politics,Doug.
>
>I disagree because there are different reasons people vote the way they do
>--- and not all of them are traditional.  I voted for the Democtrats for the
>very rreason that they would bring instability (someday I might elucidate on
>this) , except for Clinton, because I was a Baha'i then and I was foolish
>enough to believe him.
> Wait a minute. You had said that you voted by Eldridge Cleaver for
president. He was not a democrat!(Socialist Worker's Party, wasn't it?) If
you want instability, vote for people to run government who don't believe
government can be useful. But you don't have t o worry. Instability we have
plenty of.People need the faith and imagination to hope for something better,
to notice the injustice and confusion around them. We as Baha'is need to be
constructive and fairminded, and remember, we want to invite all humanity to
join us, so be fair and avoid invective. Clinton may know more about running
for office than governing(Jimmy Carter had the same problem) but he has faced
a hostile climate in congress and the country with a weak powerbase and
gallently persevered. He has made important contributions to peace,
especially in northern Ireland, and made some good proposals.(such as the
health insurance proposals) Again, we should be generous. Newt Gingrich is
certainly full of ideas, isn't he?
>> Myself, the more
>>I read about Nixon and Kennedy, the more alike they seem, though Kennedy
>>projected such an appealing image.(see the recent article on Kennedy and
>>Nixon in Vanity Fair) Ah, I miss Bobby though. Don't you?
>
>Miss Bobby?  To a degree, yes.  He was head and shoulders above the other
>two.
>
Teddy keeps plugging away, God bless him. Don't judge him harshly!
>>Actually, your drift from alienated left to alienated right is not unusual.
>>In fact many of the militiamen have a similar history, and this is not a
new
>>story, but the same old story as in Germany, where Hitler and his
associates
>>designed their program to appeal to disaffected socialists as well as to
>>nationalists.
>
>It only appears as a drift because I haven't disclosed all the facts about
>why I did what I did and because with the party system we often vote
>"against" as much of more tha we vote "for" someone.  Also, to understand
>why people belong to the extremes and can easily switch from one to the
>other I suggest reading "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer.  I read it every
>3 to 5 years and use it to re-evaluate my reasons for doing things.
>
Okay, your --journey-- from alienated left to alienated right....If you
understand why people at extremes switch from one to the other, why don't you
consider a more moderate position? You can sympathize with peoples'
apocalyptic views without joining them in their search for demons. Focus on
world unity, on strengthening the United Nations.

>
>I have not the heart at the moment to engage in the repartee of this
>discussion because I took my 82 year old father to the hospital yesterday
>with congestive heart failure --- he is stabelized and comfortable now ---
>this, on top of his emphasima, has changed the relative importance of my
>actions.  Let me close this portion of the "Re: status quo and utopia" with
>a heartfelt thanks for a good discussion.

You have my sympathy. I wish the best for your father.

>I do intend to continue the portionof the tread dealing with the "prosperity
>of Humankind".  It is a truly important document.  I was not on Talisman
>when it came out so I don't know what was said here.
>
>So OK you happy folks in Talimanland, what do you think of the "Prosperity"
>statement?
>
>Doug
>
>I think it was a good statement. I was particularly struck by the use of the
metaphor of ecological diversity with regard to the different viewpoints of
humanity, a kind of philosophical diversity.   Like the "Promise of World
Peace" it was a strikingly confident and optimistic statement.
>
regards

David Taylor>




=END=


Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:37:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: de Maistre



Non-Marxist antiliberalism developed in reaction to the Enlightenment,
with its key values of parliamentary governance, freedom of speech and
conscience, due process and other human rights.  Antiliberalism, it seems
to me, has four major forms:

1) the Theocratic  (i.e. French Restoration thought or Khomeinism)

2) fascism   (Mussolini)

3) Nazism   (many of the same themes but organized around race)

4) "soft" antiliberalism  (e.g. Alasdaire McIntyre)



These are all quite different, but many themes recur in them, especially
in their critique of the complex of rights associated with liberalism.

Among the first elaborators of non-Marxist antiliberalism was Joseph de
Maistre (d. 1821), a French thinker who at first supported the French
Revolution but then grew increasingly conservative and critical of it and
of the ideals in the Declaration of the Rights of Man.


De Maistre defended the Spanish Inquisition and opposed the emancipation
of Russia's serfs.  He despised freedom of speech, saying that the folly
of allowing all ranks of people to speak freely was destroying European
society.  Tolerance, he said, was political suicide.  If a government is
criticized, it will collapse.  The idea of civil equality can only lead
to instability:  "there can be no government if the masses who are ruled
consider themselves the equals of those who rule."

Maistre, like most antiliberals, did not put forth any institutional
design of his own.  But he knew where to place the blame for all things
wrong with modernity.  The decline began with the Protestant Reformation,
which encouraged human pride to revolt against authority; obedience was
replaced by discussion."

He denounced the brotherhood of man as nonsense.  He insisted on absolute
monarchy--"all men are born for monarchy."  History demonstrates that
humans are destined to be subjects, to live in a hierarchical society
where power is concentrated at the top.  Holmes, p. 19, observes of de
Maistre's stance:
"Monarchy is natural because individuals are spontaneously defiant,
cannot make any important decisions on their own, and must have their
refractory wills broken by overwhelming force.  The sovereign must be
"infallible" in a purely practical or legal sense: no one can have the
power to declare him mistaken.  `Authority' must be perceived as perfect
and beyond criticism.  (In private, it should be mentioned, Maistre
unstintingly denounced the stupidity and incompetence of actual monarchs.)"

De Maistre denounces self-government because people are weak and
passion-tossed and distracted.  He rejects the idea of humankind's
intrinsic goodness and susceptibility to improvement through education.
To oppose political absolutism is equated with "hatred for divinity."
People must believe that "all sovereignty comes from God"--even the
sovereignty of dictatorial, absolutist states, or else the state will
collapse.  He approves of the way the Ottoman state is founded upon the
Qur'an.

De Maistre hates science.  Holmes says of his view, "Scientists make bad
citizens and worthless statesmen."  Civilization is being degraded by
science.

Human beings need to be constrained by feelings of hereditary guilt, and
by having their individualism enclosed in a community.

De Maistre denounces Liberalism's naive belief in the possibility of
peace, insisting that men are naturally violent.  He seems to approve of
the martial virtues, the glory of warfare.  "No nation has ever doubted
that the spilling of blood contains an expiatory power.  He exults in the
image of the Executioner, sure that capital punishment is necessary to
deter crime.


Stephen Holmes, in his "Anatomy of Antiliberalism," pp. 35-36, points out
that de Maistre was muddle-headed and demonstrably wrong about much in
his critique of Liberalism.  Skepticism and doubt have a useful public
function in democracies, which are not destroyed by them but rather
thrive on them.  Constitutional, parliamentary regimes have proved *far*
more stable than any other sort in the past 200 years, despite
conspicuous failurse such as the Weimar Republic.  Citizens *will* obey
laws that they can revoke or publicly criticize.  They will also follow
leaders whom they know they can oust from office.  Despite the obvious
fallacies in de Maistre's polemics against Liberalism, he created a
discourse and a set of themes which have been, often unwittingly, picked
up and repeated over and over again by subsequent Antiliberals, whether
of the fascist or the "soft" schools.

cheers   Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan



=END=


Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 01:02:59 +0100
From: Wendi and Moojan Momen 
To: talisman@ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Jesus Scholars Debate

You may be interested in the following announcement

-------------------------------------
    Don't miss the "JESUS AT 2000" E-mail Debate!

     The JESUS AT 2000 list server offers anyone with an e-mail
address the
     opportunity to witness a debate--as it happens--between three
     internationally known and widely published Jesus scholars.

     Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, and Luke Timothy Johnson will
     discuss their views about the historical Jesus in a free
electronic
     forum sponsored by Harper San Francisco.

     This e-mail debate will begin the week after the JESUS AT 2000
     symposium, which will take place at Oregon State University from
     February 8-10. The JESUS AT 2000 symposium is the first national
     scholarly symposium commemorating the 2,000th anniversary of
Jesus's
     birth in 4 B.C. It will include lectures by six acclaimed
scholars
     (including Borg and Crossan) on the historical, religious, and
     cultural significance of Jesus.

     Details about the symposium are available on the HarperCollins
Web
     site:
     http://www.harpercollins.com/news/jes2000.htm

     The post-symposium e-mail debate presents an opportunity to
extend
     this forum to a worldwide audience. And it gives Jesus Seminar
     scholars Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan the opportunity to
     debate their viewpoints with their foremost critic, New Testament
     scholar Luke Timothy Johnson.


===================================================================

     TO SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE TO THIS DEBATE, PLEASE FOLLOW THE
     DIRECTIONS BELOW.

     To SUBSCRIBE and receive the debate messages Borg, Crossan, and
     Johnson send to one another, simply send an e-mail to the
following
     address:

     lists@info.harpercollins.com

     The text of your message should read as follows:

     SUBSCRIBE JESUS2000

     Be sure that no other words or characters appear in the message
you
     send. You will be included on the electronic mailing list when
the
     debate begins.

     To stop receiving messages, send the following message to the
same
     address (lists@info.harpercollins.com):

     UNSUBSCRIBE JESUS2000

     Again, be sure that no other words or characters appear in the
message
     you send.

     *If you have questions or problems with this list server, please
send
     an e-mail to

     information@harpercollins.com

===================================================================


--
Wendi and Moojan Momen
momen@northill.demon.co.uk
Tel./Fax: (44) 1767 627626




=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 10:12:31 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Test, not necessary to read

10:10, 4 Feb.  jw




=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 10:27:06 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mlp@sover.net (Marie L. Procter)
Subject: Hello - I'm not getting any mail

Dear Talismanians,
I was astounded this morning to find that I had no new messages from
Talisman.  Am I still connected?  What's up?

Marie





=END=


From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 14:23:05 -0800
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Test message

Friends,

I haven't received any talisman mail for two days and this is a test message
to see if I am still on or have somehow been taken off the list.

If this appears, sorry to have taken up your band width.

Sandy Fotos
Tokyo



=END=


Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 09:38:37 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Relevance and Netiquette

I don't want to make anybody self-conscious, but the honored members
should remember that traffic on Talisman is getting pretty heavy.  If you
are carrying on a debate of marginal relevance with just one or two
people, you might want to continue it privately.  Also, try to keep
things concise when possible.

The guiding principle, however, is that you are free to post on whatever
subjects your think are appropriate.

John Walbridge
List Owner




=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 18:17:29 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Daystar School E'Mail Address or Fax needed urgently
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Dear Talismanians
Sorry to take up the band with the request but Bosch needs to get in
touch with Bill Barnes ASAP.
Thank-you
Kindest regards
Derek



=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 20:50:57 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: carmen@ucla.edu (Carmen Mathenge)
Subject: Re: Re; Helen Bishop


Dear friends,

I was fortunate to know Helen Bishop during the two years I lived in
Portland, during which I became a Baha'i, partly as a result of hearing
several of her talks.  I attended my first Ascension of Baha'u'llah at her
home, and do I remember that tea!  She asked if I preferred my tea strong or
weak, in a tone which seemed to imply that anyone who liked weak tea was at
least a sissy, if not a moral weakling, so of course I said strong.  Gosh,
was that tea ever strong--I swear it tasted like Drano!  I could barely
bring myself to sip at it from time to time, while she regaled us with about
three hours of fascinating stories.

One of my favorites was her tale of how she used to hang around the Church
kitchen as a child when they were baking the wafers used in Holy Communion.
She wanted to find out if they really put the Body of Christ into the Host!
When she never could catch them at it, she stopped being a believer.

Carmen

99999999999999999999999999999999999999
Carmen Mathenge
Lawndale, California, USA
99999999999999999999999999999999999999




=END=


From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 22:03:55 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of Writings

Dear Sandy:
    Well, of course the mystic aspects of the Baha'i Faith (or any other
religion) transcend human sexuality (male or female), as they transcend all
of human experience, all language constructs, and the material world as a
whole.  That is the point.
    And, no, I do not believe that there is (or could be) any such thing as
gender in the next world.  As I have argued here, I believe that both sex and
gender are socially constructed categories.  They are by no means constructed
in similar ways, even here on earth.  And to suggest the existence of a
Western social construct in the next world strikes me as more than slightly
ridiculous.
    I do not question the validity of your right to experience the Baha'i
Writings in any way that you choose.  I believe that you have the absolute
right to imagine the world of the spirit in any way at all that "turns you
on."  And I do not think that you have the right to question the right of
others to imagine that world in terms of male sexual fantasy--or female
sexual fantasy, for that matter.   After all, YOU are the one objecting to
the "sexualization of the Writings."
     What is at stake here is not the nature of the spiritual world, which is
after all beyond description, but rather limits on the language that can be
used to refer to that world.  It is the nature of all Sufi mystic writing to
imagine that world and one's relationship to God in rather explicit sexual
terms--and this goes for men and women.  This is hardly a surprise.  There
are ecstatic mystic poems of Baha'u'llah which in their context are erotic on
their face, and I don't see any need to apologize for this or explain it
away.  Likewise, to choose a female figure, the poems of Tahirih are
unspeakably gorgeous and just as erotic as any other mystic poetry of her
time.
     Why all the fuss, anyway?  Since the spiritual world is beyond human
description, any human activity can be used to suggest it--while never
capturing it.  Has anyone notice that Baha'u'llah likens spiritual communion
to eating and drinking?  And he doesn't say to drink water, we are talking
about getting falling-down drunk on the "Choice Wine."

Tony



=END=


From: alma@indirect.com
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 14:03:03 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: The Guardian and my new dictionary

Don't ever let anyone tell you religion does not pay.  Or that the Beloved
Guardian is not a girl's best friend.

About a month ago there was some discussion here about Shoghi Effendi and
his great appreciation for the works of Gibbon, an author I had never read.
Just about then I got an ad in the mail to join a new bookclub that would
specialize in quality editions of certain classics and the introductory,
very cheap, offering was Gibbon!

So for once I decided to try this and committed myself to ordering three or
so more books from them over the next two years.  Doubt if I am the first
person to succumb to such an offer and perhaps later regret it.

Now for the good part.  This offer included a free FREE! Complete Compact
Oxford English Dictionary to the first 50 replies received.  I returned my
acceptance posthaste -- even went to the post office on a Saturday afternoon
to be sure it got in the mail.  And today my dictionary arrived.  Now I will
no longer need Dr. Burl to decipher the hidden meanings behind Juan's choice
of words -- so long as he sticks to English.

Of course such a volume needs to be out and accessible to be used.  It
deserves a dedicated bookstand.  And I know just the place to order one in
solid hardwood with bookshelves underneath for about $300 -- about the
suggested price for the dictionary itself, if I am not mistaken.  Alma, quit
while you are ahead.

In peace,
Alma

 To tread the path of Love                Alma Engels
          Is no mere game.                alma@indirect.com
          For only one
          Out of many thousands
          Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)




=END=


Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 19:22:14 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mlp@sover.net (Marie L. Procter)
Subject: Introduction

Dear Talismanians,
Late last November I upgraded to a Mac Performa from an eight year old IBM
Model 25 and the first thing I did was bug my buddies here in Brattleboro
for the address that would allow me to enter the alluring world of Baha'i
E-Mail dialogue they had been chattering about.  Little did I know to what
I was going to be tapping into.  It has been a roller coaster of an
adventure to swing from the beauty of Juan's and Ahang's translations of
our blessed Writings to the pronouncements of the Prince of Platitudes,
"Dr. Burl" and Derek's regular reports on the adventures of Linda and her
ninja costumed Shiitite ladies!  I have had many a belly laugh and can't
wait to meet some of these folks at the Mysticism Conference at Bosch this
month  -  YES!  I will be there too.

My Baha'i career has a long history.  I learned of the Faith from the
mother of one of my teenage friends back in Pennsylvania.  This lady, Anna
Mikuriya, was taught by two devoted sisters in Philadelphia who knew
'Abdu'l-Baha.  They were called to the Holy Land and served Shoghi Effendi
for many years and are buried there.  My Baha'i lineage also includes Bill
Sears who was living in Philadelphia at the time and had a program called
"In The Park," on a local TV station.  He bought a farm next to the Haddens
in Downingtown, Pa. and was part of the scene there during youth
conferences that were held at the Hadden's farm.  It was there in the
summer of 1951, that I declared as a youth and began my - what is now - 45
year odyssey with Baha'u'llah.

I have served on Assemblies, District Teaching Committees for Penna and
Vermont, been an Assistant for Mrs. Khadem and Nat Rutstein, worked for two
years at the Baha'i International Community in NYC from 1982 -85, have
written for produced community newsletters for more years than I can
remember, attended innumerable conferences including the 1953 Conference in
Wilmette to launch the ten year crusade, the 1963 World Congress in London,
Interconnential Conferences in Iceland and Panama and major coferences in
the U.S.  I got my fill of big Baha'i conferences and now prefer smaller,
more intimate gatherings, although I do like the ABS Conferences and
usually try to attend them whenever possible.  Last Fall I opted to go to
the 4th International Dialogue at the University of Maryland instead of the
ABS conference in SF.  It was great!

My training is in psychology and education.  BA from Guilford College in
N.C. and EdM. in Education from Temple University.  Used my education to
teach in the Head Start Program and then directed a day care center for 7
years, writing yearly grants for funding to the Office of Economic
Opportunity.   I came to Vermont in 1986 to do a second masters in English
as a Second Language at the School for International Training and have not
completed the requirements for the degree having allowed myself to get
caught up in local community service such as serving on the Board of the
Arts Council of Windham County as their President for the 3rd year, the
Hotline Board for several years and President for 2 years and not to
mention the local Baha'i community where I am in my 5th year of writing for
and editing our community newsletter.  Whew! I also bought a large
Victorian house in Brattleboro and started a rental business catering to
graduate students at the School for International Training - I currently
have 10 of them sharing my quarters.  It's quite an adventure.

During the 70's I learned about Reevaluation Counseling or co-counseling
(an approach to personal growth utilizing peer counseling techniques) and
attended lots of workshops and classes until I, too, became a teacher for a
few years.  I found much about the theory that was compatible with the
Faith:
1)  that one could gain insight into one's personal history and traumatic
events without needing to tell all the gory details, i.e. not confessing
one's sins to another.
2) our potential to be loving, zesty, creative and intelligent.
3) and an emphasis on justice as a means for healing both individual and
societal ills.

I have one daughter and two stepsons, one of whom is gay, so the thread
about the homosexual issue has been of great interest to me.  My dear
husband of 22 years is in Costa Rica and we have been apart for about 8
years now.

Well, this has gotten rather long.  I am very glad to be a part of this
list and can't tell you how much it has done for me in terms of my feelings
about the Faith.  It's really been mind-blowing at times, a life-line to
other intelligent forms in the universe and confirming of many of my secret
thoughts about this and that over the years.  Cyberspace is wonderful.

If Mary Kay Radpour reads this  - hello.  It was good to see your posting a
while back.  I still remember with great fondness our service on the
Northeast Youth Projects Committee in the 60's and encountering you at
other events in our Baha'i journey.

Marie L. Procter






=END=


From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 21:47:42 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Paper on the boundaries of internal discourse

Well, just for your information.

Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	rstockman@usbnc.org (Stockman, Robert)
To:	Member1700@aol.com
Date: 96-02-02 00:01:01 EST


     Dear Tony:  The paper on boundaries of internal discourse in the
     community was by me.  It did not equate such discourse with attacks;
     rather, it started with the premise that the boundaries of discourse
     in the community had themselves become a criticism of the Faith in
     some circles (I had Denis MacEoin in mind), and the paper looked at
     ways we could improve our discourse so as to make it better and
     minimize attacks on us.

     I don't feel the paper is yet ready to be shared publicly, as I need
     to develop some sections further, and tighten up some arguments.
     Please  pass this psting on to Talisman and express my regrets that
     the paper cannot yet be posted.

     I miss Talisman, but on the other hand I needed the six or eight hours
     a week Talisman was taking.  Teaching full time and working almost
     full time at the National Centre is exhausting.  But lately it has
     proved very rewarding; the Wilmette Institute is moving forward very
     nicely, and our New World Order conference last weekend was a huge
     success.  I'll send a posting about the latter in a few days.

                -- Rob Stockman


______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Fwd: Paper on the boundaries of internal discourse
Author:  Member1700@aol.com at INTERNET
Date:    2/1/96 8:31 PM


Rob:  Do you have a copy of this paper?  Can you share it with Talisman?

Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: forumbahai@dunedin.es.co.nz (Alison & Steve Marshall)
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: 96-02-01 16:21:41 EST

>From Baha'i International News Service (BINS) #354:

UNITED KINGDOM

Conference Characterized By Scholarly Rigour, Open-Mindedness, Warmth

A joint gathering of the eighth `Irfan Colloquium and the Religious Studies
Seminar of the Association for Baha'i Studies of English-speaking Europe was
held at Newcastle University from 8 to 10 December. The `Irfan Colloquium is
sponsored by the Haj Mihdi Arjmand Memorial Fund and the Institute for
Baha'i Studies (Wilmette, Illinois, U.S.A.).

The theme of the conference was attacks on, and criticisms of, the Baha'i
Faith and ways of responding to them. Forty-five people participated in the
meeting which was characterized by its scholarly rigour, open-mindedness,
and warmth.

Papers were presented by Dr. Iraj Ayman, Dr. Robert Stockman, Dr. Udo
Schaefer, Dr. Moojan Momen, Dr. Margit Warburg, Dr. Kamran Ekbal, Dr.
Nichola Towfiq, Dr. Khazeh Fananapazir, Mr. Stephen Lambden and Mrs. Lil
Abdo.

Among the reviews of past attacks on the Faith were discussions of the
position of Mirza Yahya.

Another topic which was presented was Mirza Abu'l-Fadl's replies to
arguments made against the Teachings.

Recent_attacks_on_the_Faith_were_addressed_in_papers on Islamic laws which
have been used to support persecution of Baha'is; on the rebuttal published
in October in Germany to a book written by a Covenant-breaker; and on_an_
exploration_of_the_boundaries_of_internal_discourse_within_the_Baha'i_
community.

One other presentation was made during the conference. A biographical sketch
of Haj Mihdi Arjmand, a scholar-teacher of the Baha'i Faith, was given, and
a few of the Tablets of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha to him were summarized.

[Report from an individual received 17 December]

--------------------------------

Not sure I like the way an exploration of the boundaries of discourse within
the Baha'i community is equated with addressing recent attacks on the Faith,
but it sounds like this paper might be pertinent to the issues faced by
Talisman and other Baha'i-related discussion groups. Has anyone got more
details about it?

ka kite ano,
Steve

--------------------------------------------------------------
                  Alison and Steve Marshall
                 Email:  forumbahai@es.co.nz
 90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------






=END=


Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 11:23:02 -0800
To: Dave10018@aol.com, friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp, tan1@cornell.edu,
        talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia

Dear Dave,

You wrote:

>The letters from the House and its agencies (such as the Baha'i International
>Community) on peace and, more recently, prosperity, do indeed provide the
>model for Baha'i constructive engagement. We should stay aloof from partisan
>disputes, and I only reacted because of the partisan tone of your letter and
>your lack of sympathy for people who I have known for many years and know to
>be working in good faith. I do not doubt the sincerity of many who feel that
>the best course for this country is to trust in the workings of "unbridled
>capitalism," though I doubt the wisdom of such a course and can point to
> reservations expressed by the Gaurdian and the House.

I apologize if the tone was partisan.  I tried to make it as neutral as
possible but
failed.  As to "unbridled Capitalism":  I, too, feel it is an untenable
position.  The
"Prosperity" statement does encourage and secure the ownership of private
property.  I think that when the full potential of economic development
occurs it will be through the arena of the small business owner.  Look at
our economy now.  Even though we are effected (often badly) by *huge*
companies, conglomerates, and mlti-nationals the majority of Americans are
employed by small companies (under 100 employees).

> As I said before, my father served in the Johnson administration. For
>two years he gave speeches all over the country as well as administering an
>innovative program designed to require local government and community
>activists to form common plans to attack a broad range of urban problems.
>This took a lot of wrestling with conflicting interests and political
>agendas, but produced some effective programs, pilot programs which were
>never fully funded after 1968. When my father gave a written speech he was
>required by admistration policy to defend the Vietnam war!  To avoid
>mentioning the war, he gave all of his speeches for two years as
>"off-the-cuff-remarks" rather than as written speeches.

It is unfortunate that there aren't more people like him in government.

>>  And just where did the all the hew and cry to decriminalize
>>marijuana
>>and allow people to have the freedom to use recreational drugs like LSD,
>>mushrooms, peyote, and cocaine come from?  Should we look to the left or the
>>right?
>
>Such "hue and cry" has come from the fringes, anarchist left and libertarian
>right.

If it was from the "frings" how did Colorado, among others, decriminalize
marijuana?  The Alaska Supreme Court even ruled that an individual could
legally grow enough for personal use --- though they have since reversed
themselves --- but it is still decriminalized.

> A few mayors, such as Curt Shmoke of Baltimore, have recently
>advocated decriminalization in the attempt to put more money into treatment,
>which is far more effective than the "war on drugs," but this is a recent
>development. Other than him, who are the prominant commentators calling for
>decriminalization? Oh yeah, William Buckley, what a liberal!

As more and more inteligent people are these days.  If I wasn't a Baha'i I
would be in fovor of legalizing *all* drugs --- it would cut down on the
violance and theift related to the current drug scene.

>All of this [Regan, taxes, etc. DM] is quite debatable. The point is that
you should be careful not
>to imagine that people who don't agree are insincere, dishonest, stupid or
>crazy. I promise to do the same.

I agree and as I said in a private email: Since history is an art, not a
science, and history is in the eye of the beholder let us agree to disagree.

>This [comments on my voting history - DM] does not mark you as a discerning
student of politics,Doug.

I disagree because there are different reasons people vote the way they do
--- and not all of them are traditional.  I voted for the Democtrats for the
very rreason that they would bring instability (someday I might elucidate on
this) , except for Clinton, because I was a Baha'i then and I was foolish
enough to believe him.

> Myself, the more
>I read about Nixon and Kennedy, the more alike they seem, though Kennedy
>projected such an appealing image.(see the recent article on Kennedy and
>Nixon in Vanity Fair) Ah, I miss Bobby though. Don't you?

Miss Bobby?  To a degree, yes.  He was head and shoulders above the other two.


>Actually, your drift from alienated left to alienated right is not unusual.
>In fact many of the militiamen have a similar history, and this is not a new
>story, but the same old story as in Germany, where Hitler and his associates
>designed their program to appeal to disaffected socialists as well as to
>nationalists.

It only appears as a drift because I haven't disclosed all the facts about
why I did what I did and because with the party system we often vote
"against" as much of more tha we vote "for" someone.  Also, to understand
why people belong to the extremes and can easily switch from one to the
other I suggest reading "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer.  I read it every
3 to 5 years and use it to re-evaluate my reasons for doing things.

>>PS.  As a friend of mine says, "Everybody has buttons that set them off, and
>>you just
>>pushed one of mine."  I apologize if I came on too strong and strident.  I'm
>>still in
>>transition from the "old world order" to the New World Order.
>>
>>We are all in transition. Remarkable how steadily we have progressed toward
>the Lesser Peace in the international arena despite the low level of American
>political discourse. I think the international community may well serve
>someday soon to save America from the grip of right wing hysteria. The forces
>of reaction and the forces of provocation are gathering steam. Be calm, my
>friend.
>
>cheers,
>
>dave taylor

I have not the heart at the moment to engage in the repartee of this
discussion because I took my 82 year old father to the hospital yesterday
with congestive heart failure --- he is stabelized and comfortable now ---
this, on top of his emphasima, has changed the relative importance of my
actions.  Let me close this portion of the "Re: status quo and utopia" with
a heartfelt thanks for a good discussion.

I do intend to continue the portionof the tread dealing with the "prosperity
of Humankind".  It is a truly important document.  I was not on Talisman
when it came out so I don't know what was said here.

So OK you happy folks in Talimanland, what do you think of the "Prosperity"
statement?

Doug





=END=


Date: Fri, 02 Feb 96 12:14:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: part 4 of comments on Ghulam-i Khuld

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]


My comments (in square bracket) on the final section of the
translation of Ghulam-i Khuld.



The spiritual Youth, He Who was hid in the treasuries of the
Lord's infallibility, hath risen above the horizon of eternity,
------                                                --------
[suggest replacing "Lord's" with "divine" as its closer to
"rabbani".  "samadani" should be rendered "peerlessness" instead
of "eternity".]


clad in the robe of divinity and God-like beauty, like unto the
sun of reality and the pre-eternal spirit.  With the cloak of
true being He hath delivered all who are in the heavens and the
----------
[In the original, in addition to "hasti" (true being), also
"baqa`" is mentioned.  Therefore, suggest replacing with "With
the cloak of true being and immortality He hath ...".]


earth from the worlds of utter nothingess and given them life.
                         ----------------
[In original, in addition to "nisty", rendered as "utter
nothingness", "fana" is also used.  Therefore suggest replacing
with:  "... from the worlds of utter nothingness and extinction
and ..."]


From the depths of utter obscurity He hath brought forth into the
-----------------------------------------------------------------
open court that hidden word upon which depend the spirits of all
----------------------------------------------------------------
the prophets and saints.
------------------------
[This sentence, in my view, should be replaced with:  "That
hidden Word [the Bab], upon which depend the spirits of all the
prophets and the chosen ones, hath manifest forth from the hidden
and unseen throne."]


When He took that secret word from the realm of pure being and
--------------------------------------------------------------
absolute unity and manifested it in the worlds of creation, by
--------------------------------------------------------------
that act a breeze of mercy arose, wiping the stench of sin from
---------------------------------
all things and placing a new robe of forgiveness upon the
numberless temples of all things and man.
[Suggest replacing the first part with:  "When that hidden Word,
from the realm of utterly divine and absolute unity, did shine
forth above the worlds of creation, a breeze of mercy arose
wiping the stench of sin from all things ..."]


Such was the wondrous solicitude with which He surrounded all
-------------------------------------------------------------
things that the hidden realities laid up in the storehouses of
--------------------------------------------------------------
possibility were made manifest in outward things through the
-----------
breath of the letters B and E.
[Suggest replacing this with:  "And such new favours surrounded
all things that the hidden gems laid up in the treasure-house of
corporeal world were made manifest in outward things through the
breath of the letters B and E."  I should also comment that I
agree with John's reading of "nafkhih" (breath) in the Text, even
though "nafhih" (fragrance) is written -- another possible error
in text.]


The seen and the unseen were gathered together within a single
cloak, and the mysterious and the manifest united in a single
robe.  Nothingness itself attained to the kingdom of
pre-existence.  The essence of mortality attained the realm of
eternity.

Therefore, O lovers of His gracious beauty, O ye struck mad by
                                                 -------------
the air nigh unto His awful throne!
-----------------------------------
[Suggest replacing with:  Therefore, O lovers of His gracious
beauty, O ye enamored by the space nigh unto All-glorious.]


This is the season to draw near and find reunion, not a time for
talk and argument.  If ye be true, the true morn is plain and
                                   --------------------------
shinging before you.
--------------------
[Suggest replacing:  "If ye be true, the Beloved is manifest like
true morn, plain and shinging."


Free yourselves of self and other--nay, of all that is, of being
and non-being, of light and darkness, of abasement and might.
Lay aside all vain and idle thoughts; and pure and holy, wander
with luminous heart through this spiritual court beneath the
shade of the manifestations of eternal holiness.
-----------------------------------------------
[In order to remain closer to the original, suggest using
"effulgent of eternal holiness".]


O Friends, the eternal wine is flowing!  O lovers, the beauty of
                                           ------
the Beloved is unveiled!
[The original "mushtaqan" is closer to "enamored".]


O companions, the fire of the Sinai of love burns bright!  Shrug
off the burden of love of the world and attachment thereto.  Like
the bright birds about the Throne, soar in the atmosphere of
------------------------------------------------------------
divine Ridvan, singing of that home that shall not perish.
----------------------------------------------------------
[Suggest replacing with:  "Like the bright birds of heaven, soar
in the atmosphere of divine Ridvan, long for the abode that shall
not perish."]


Surely the soul ought not to be at all deprived, Nor any fragment
-----------------------------------------------------------------
of the heart be without the Beloved.
------------------------------------
[Suggested replacement:  "Surely the soul is unworthy deprived of
Him, and the spirit valueless without the Beloved."]


Consider how at every moment the moths of that Yemen of praise
burn away their souls about the lamp of the Friend and will not
be separated from their Beloved.  Would any bird do likewise?
                                  ---------------------------
[Suggested replacement:  "Not every bird able to do likewise."]


God will guide whomsoever He willeth to a path lofty and great.
Thus We rain down upon the people of the cloud-wrapped throne
                                         --------------------
that which will turn them towards the right hand of eternity and
enter them into that station raised high in the heaven of
holiness.
[Suggest replacing "cloud-wrapped throne" (`ama) with "unseen
world".]



I want to say again how much I enjoyed this personal deepening.
Whether any of my suggestions is ever incorporated in the
translation, I know I have benefited enormously from this review.
if I find the time, I like to go through other translations
posted recently on Talisman as well.

best regards, ahang.



=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 18:55:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: HELP!


Dear friends, a group of us are starting to deepen on the Writings of
Shoghi Effendi. At our last deepening a question came up and there were
two answers proposed. Can someone please let me know what the right
answer is please?

We were talking about the sign of maturity of humanity. Now in the Aqdas
on the last page there is a verse that says one sign is mentioned in the
Aqdas and the other in another Tablet. So there are two signs ( i
remembered this from Baha'i Class). the confusion was as to the two
signs.

One person said the signs would be the establishment of monarchy which is
the best system of government according to Baha'u'llah and the other is
the maturity of the science of alchemy.

I remembered otherwise. I thought the two signs were the establishment of
a universal language and the time when monarchs would lay down their
power and not want to rule.

What is the right answer and where are they mentioned please. THanks alot.

Regards,

Cheshmak Farhoumand

"i expect to pass through this world but once. Any good therefore that i
can show my fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or
neglect it, for i shall not pass this way again."
						Author Unknown



=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 19:12:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: E.G. Browne and the Baha'i Faith.
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Derek Cockshut" ,
        "Talisman" 

Derek writes:

>Richard has not read the breadth of Browne's published work nor any of
>his research papers and private correspondence. Browne did not approach
>any of his work in the three academic fields he did research and
>published in with the arrogance of a 19th and early 20th century
>European orientalist. He was a uniques figure to whom the Faith owes
>much including collection of orginal material which now resides in the
>Cambridge University Library

Thank you Derek for pointing that out and I'm properly impressed by the
breadth of your knowledge in this matter.  I think it was the Master who
said,  "You can load a donkey with a hundred books and it's still a
donkey."

 If you want to review what I've written about this perhaps you will find
that we are in fact not really in variance.

Richard




Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:59:03 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Dear Dr. Burl: Best of Talisman

Dear Dr. Burl:

Don't you think there should be a Talisman historian somewhere who would
collect the best and perhaps the worst of articles on Talisman for the
future generations to enjoy?

Who do you think should be that person?  Maybe, in a few years, someone
could write a book about Talisman, how it changed the world, how it changed
English language, and how it drove many of us crazy and made us homeless.


Signed,

Intellectual wannabe
Arsalan J. Sadighi


 "Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
         that is clearly none of your business!"     Battista





=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:08:33 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: E'Mail Address for Daystar . Bill Barnes or Fax number
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Dear Talismanians
Sorry to take up the band but I am looking for the E'Mail or Fax number
of the Daystar School in Japan . Bosch needs to get in touch with Bill
Barnes ASAP. Thank-you,
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut



=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 19:01:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand 
To: careyER_ms@msn.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Rejection Letter


Dear friends, i thought this was really cute. Enjoy!

Regards,

Cheshmak



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dr. Gens Bankonit, Editor
"Private Culture"
Brand X University
Amherst, MA 02134

Dear Dr. Bankonit,

I regret to inform you that I cannot accept your rejection of my article
at this time.  As someone struggling to publish in a very competitive
field, I have high standards for accepting journal refusals.  While your
letter certainly has merit, and may in fact apply to some other
submission to your journal, it does not meet my needs as a junior faculty
member.

Even if you were to make serious changes to your letter, I am afraid your
letter would not suit my needs.  Junior faculty have a history of wanting
to refuse letters like yours, but are forced to accept them due to
limited numbers of letters like them in their repertoire.  Unfortunately,
I have a surfeit of letters like yours and cannot justify accepting yours
as so many others would.  With an acceptance rate of letters of rejection
nearing .5%, I am very selective of what letters I do indeed accept, as I
am sure you can understand.

Should you be willing to send another letter, say one that is more
accepting, more open, and more encouraging to publication, I would
seriously reconsider my present rejection of your letter and may opt in
your favor in the future.

Friends of mine who read your letter gave mixed reviews of it.  One
friend said, "I cannot believe he wrote this letter to you."  While
another wrote, "This makes sense.  They just want to publish senior white
male faculty members."  Given the mixed reactions by my friends and my
own negative assessment of your letter's content, I would be remiss to
accept a letter like yours in its present state.

Perhaps you might find a suitable venue for such a letter in a department
of Philosophy at a prestigious institution, where faculty members are
invited to publish in selectively reviewed journals.  Or perhaps you
could send your letter to someone in a large department whose faculty
have a high rate of publication.  Given your overexperience at sending
such a letter to junior faculty members, it only makes sense to strive to
send your letter to a less rigorous group of scholars, such as those who
get published all the time.

Finally, while your letter was certainly readable, you might want to
write your letter in a way that addresses more perceptively the
audience you intend to affect with your words.  For instance, if you
are trying to show administrators or senior faculty members just how
selective you are, perhaps you should not be directing your attacks by
letter to junior faculty members but rather to the system that
perpetuates the lack of quality in thinking at higher levels of
education.  Additionally, rather than using a blind review process,
which excludes only junior faculty from the process, perhaps you should
make reviewers state their names, professions, and reasons for refusal.

Should your letter respond to any of the suggestions I have made in my
letter, I would certainly consider accepting your rejection letter.
Please do not hesitate to send another rejection letter more like the
one I have been describing (i.e., more like an acceptance).  Should
your letter begin to address my concerns, I could only hope to be more
gracious in my acceptance of your rejection of me.

Best of luck in rejecting future essays.

                                       Sincerely,


                                       Faculty Member, Jr.







=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu,  1 Feb 96 23:43:52 PST
Subject: RE: Them Dancin' Feet
To: Talisman list - MSNINET ,
        "Hannah E. Reinstein" 

Include me in.

On Thu, 1 Feb 96 05:54:34 UT  Hannah E. Reinstein wrote:
>It's wondrous and refreshing that this list permits levity along
with the
>frequently brilliant essays that characterize it. A thousand thanks.
>
>Newbies on Talisman: I maintain a large humor mailing list. Some of
the humor
>pokes fun at the world's best targets: my esteemed employer,
politicians,
>computers, etc. and some of it is just silly. If you wish to join
it, send me
>private email.
>
>Hannah
>============================
>"My life has been one great big joke,
>A dance that's walked
>A song that's spoke,
>I laugh so hard I almost choke
>When I think about myself."
>
>Maya Angelou (b. 1928), U.S. author. Just Give Me a Cool Drink of
Water
>'fore I Die, "When I Think about Myself" (1971).
>
>
>The Artist Formerly Known As Cary 

-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/01/96
Time: 23:43:53

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein




=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:29:08 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: tarjuman@umich.edu
Subject: Iran conference report (fwd)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:52:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Carl Ernst 
To: Kevin Moore 
cc: Amir Rezvani , yshimron@nando.com,
John Bussanich ,
David Gilmartin ,
Nima Hazini 
Tony Stewart ,
Joanne Waghorne 
Subject: Iran conference report


Report on the First International Congress of Professors of Persian Language
and Literature.
                           Tehran, January 3-5, 1996

                                 by Carl Ernst

     [Note:  the following account draws upon a description of the
congress circulated on the Adabiyat electronic list at the request of
Frank Lewis, and it also contains material from a letter circulated by
Arthur Buehler.]

     Since the Iranian revolution of 1978-79, political conditions have
generally prevented American Iranists from traveling in Iran for scholarly
purposes. The First International Congress of Professors of Persian Language
and Literature, held in Tehran during the first days of January, was one
of several recent conferences in Iran featuring American participation.
At this impressive international congress, perhaps more specialists in
Persian language and literature were gathered together than ever before
anywhere. Participants included some thirty professors of Persian and
Linguistics from Iranian universities and well over a hundred professors
from Afghanistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bangladesh, Bosnia-Herzegovina,
Bulgaria, Caucasus Republics, China, Czech Republic, Egypt, France,
Holland, India, Italy, Japan, Jordan, Korea, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon,
Malaysia, Morocco, Pakistan, Poland, Russia, South Africa, Sweden, Syria,
Tajikistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, The United Kingdom, The United
States of America, and Uzbekistan. Seventeen participants from Tajikistan
constituted the largest foreign contingent. Ten academics from Azerbaijan
participated, seven from Pakistan, five from America, six from
Europe, and smaller numbers from the remaining foreign countries. The level of
interest in conference sessions on Persian language teaching was also likely
unprecedented. Upwards of five hundred people attended auditorium plenary
sessions, while classrooms were generally packed with sixty or more people for
individual sessions. Radio, television, and newsprint media covered the event
aggressively and approached European and American participants for numerous
interviews. This report is distilled from the experiences of the five American
participants.
     The conference was by and large remarkably well organized. Participants
received published a series of four daily booklets summarizing talks, panels,
and discussions of the day, and a Congress album with individual photographs of
participants on the last day. Volumes and booklets summarizing the role of
Persian in various countries and regions, among them the Indian Subcontinent,
Turkey, and Azerbaijan, Tajikistan and a bibliography of Persian teaching
materials were also distributed. Plans apparently call for publication of
Congress papers. American attendees gave the following papers, all presented in
Persian: Arthur Buehler (Colgate University), "Persian Literature of the Indian
Naqshbandiyya"; Carl Ernst (University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill),
"Persian Translations of Yoga Texts"; Alan Godlas (University of Georgia), "The
Critical Study of Hadith in Persian Sufi Texts"; Michael Hillman (University of
Texas), "Teaching Persian in American Universities"; Bruce Lawrence (Duke
University), "The Role of Persian in Islamic Civilization." The Congress's
sponsoring organization, called the Council for the Expansion of Persian
Language and Literature, announced these plans at the outset of the Congress:
(1) developing opportunities for Persian teachers to take refresher or
retraining course in Persian, (2) the compilation and dissemination of new
Persian language teaching materials, and (3) organization of annual meetings
for Persian professors from around the world. Other Iranian ministries and
organizations involved in sponsorship of the conference included the Ministry
of Islamic Culture and Guidance, the Ministry of Culture and Higher
Education, the Research Center for Cultural Studies, and the Academy of
Persian Language and Literature.
     The academic program of the Congress took place at the Faculty of Letters
of the University of Tehran, after a forty-five minute address by President
Hashemi Rafsanjani on the importance of Persian language and literature. At a
second plenary session in mid-morning on Wednesday, January 3rd, reports were
presented from societies of Persian professors in India, Pakistan, the Caucasus
Republics, the Iranian Academy of Persian, a message from UNESCO delivered by
Ehsan Naraqi, and a talk by Tehran University Professor Abdolhosayn Zarrinkub.
Tehran University Professors Mehdi Mohaqqeq and Ahmad Tafazzoli were
indefatigable in their services as session chairs and discussants, while Iran
University Press's Nasrollah Pourjavady seemed to put in 24-hour days in
fulfilling academic, administrative, and social functions. Dehkhoda Institute's
Ja`far Shahidi had a leading role in pre-conference arrangements, and `Ali
Asghar She`r-Dust supervised much of the running of the conference. The active
presence of the Minister for Islamic Culture and Guidance, Muhandes Mir Salim,
was palpable throughout the conference.
     On the afternoon of January 3rd, there were two conference sessions, with
four concurrent panels in each. Participants presented papers of fifteen-to-
twenty minutes each on the situation of the Persian language in India,
Pakistan, Western Europe, America, Africa, the Arab World, Caucasus,
China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Japan, South Korea, Tajikistan, and
Afghanistan. Ricardo Zippoli (Venice) presented a proposal for a
dictionary of vocabulary in classical Persian poetry which Persianists
around the world will hear more about in the near future. Azhar Dehlavi
(Jawaharlal Nehru University) delivered a powerful statement on the
Persian's role beyond Iran and Islam, as the vehicle for self-
understanding of Indian history, and as the most important language for the
study of comparative religion. Vladimir Ivanow (Russia) offered the view that
Farsi, Dari, and Tajik should be taught as separate languages, and was roundly
denounced by listeners who insisted that the Persian of downtown Tehran is
identical with that of Rudaki and Firdawsi.
     On Thursday morning, January 4th, there were two plenary sessions, which
featured Bruce Lawrence on Persian elements in Islamic Civilization, Annabel
Keeler (Cambridge) on the state of Persian language study in the United
Kingdom, and Azhar Dehlavi (India) on Persian as an international
language. According to Annabel Keeler, six universities in the United
Kingdom now have full-fledged Persian Studies programs, involving some
sixty undergraduate and thirty post-graduate students. Mohammad Ja`far
Yahaqqi gave a stern review of existing Persian language textbooks and
teaching and called for establishment of procedures and facilities so
that foreign students of Persian could come to Iran to improve their
language skills.
     On Thursday afternoon, two sessions of four panels each took place.
Persian in Central Asia, the editing and translation of texts, Persian
grammar, Persian dialects, and the relationships between Islam and the
Persian language were topics of panels and presentations (the papers by
Ernst, Buehler, and Godlas were in the latter panel, the only one on the
topic of religion). One panel featured a report on Persian programs in
Poland, a case study by Mansour Fahim (Tabataba'i University) of a
child's Persian language learning progress, and M. M. Moazzen Jami's
critical review of Abdollah Samareh's Teaching the Persian Language.
     The plenary session on Friday, December 5th, held at the Institute for
Political and International Studies of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, mainly
dealt with organizational matters. Participants presented their views on the
structure of a permanent Council for the Dissemination of Persian Language and
Literature and made suggestions about who should head it and what activities it
should undertake. Everyone seemed to support the notion of an annual
conference, Council representation in each country where Persian is
taught in university programs, and a newsletter which would inform
Persian teachers around the world of matters of mutual interest. The
nascent Council for the Dissemination of Persian Language and Literature
may prove a helpful organization for Persian teachers around the world.
The organization will be associated with and financed
by an Iranian government ministry or academic organization.
     Certainly there were many atmospheric touches with ideological overtones.
Upon arrival at the Laleh (formerly Intercontinental) Hotel, participants all
were greeted with the omnipresent pictures of Ayatollah Khomeini, Ayatollah
Khamene'i, and President Rafsanjani, here flanked by tasteful foot-high letters
spelling out DOWN WITH USA. Revolutionary slogans (often fading), and highly
theatrical public art in the form of massive murals featuring Khomeini and
other figures, are still visible everywhere, with (to the visitor, at least)
arresting formulas such as "Prayer is a devotion that is totally
political." Tehran residents seem to be largely oblivious to this kind of
propaganda, however. Many shops and restaurants featured, just as
prominently as the photographs of the leadership, elegantly lettered
posters reminding sisters of the importance of wearing hejab in public
(women's participation was nonetheless quite prominent in all aspects of
the conference except in the most prominent public roles). The afternoon
before the beginning of the conference, two or three buses of
participants visited Ayatollah Khomeini's tomb, a huge gilt complex of domes
and minarets still under construction, much larger than the Taj Mahal in
Agra. As the gathered academics approached the inner shrine (containing
the tombs of the Ayatollah and his son Ahmed), after removing their shoes
at the entrance, they were accompanied by high-stepping, smartly dressed
soldiers flanking the procession on either side. A soldier carrying a
six-foot flowered corsage appeared as military music came over the
speakers, and it was suddenly apparent that this was a televised ritual
honoring the imam. The inside of the glass-and- silver-fitted tomb, very
much in the style of Shi`i shrines elsewhere, was piled high with money
offerings from the day's visitors. The closing of the conference
was marked by a fine concert of traditional Persian music, performed by
Mehrgan, a group of four men and four women musicians. The most dramatic
of the several receptions for the attendees was held on the final day at
the Institute of Islamic Culture and Communications, the first time that
clerics were fully in evidence during the conference. On this occasion,
the newly published Divan of the collected Persian poems of Imam Khomeini
was unveiled, and a sample ghazal was recited after an introduction that
specified the correct mode of interpretation; in Khomeini's poetry, the
beloved is understood to be the Hidden Imam, whose birthday was
coincidentally to be celebrated the following day. Conference
participants were presented with a copy of this volume. The next day,
Ayatollah Khamene'i met with a number of scholars, and a video tape of
his talk was made for distribution.
     There was time for tourism as well. A number of conference participants
went on a trip to Qom, with a tour of all the major shrines. Four of the
Americans made separate trips to Shiraz and Isfahan courtesy of the Ministry of
Islamic Culture and Guidance, for unforgettable escorted tours of the monuments
of those cities. Another major benefit of the trip was the opportunity to buy
loads of Persian books, which many participants mailed home. On departure, many
participants were whisked away to the VIP section of the airport, where bags,
tickets, and passports were painlessly taken off their hands until they were
driven up to the waiting planes.
     Questions naturally occurred regarding the non-academic aims of the
government's sponsorship of the event. One suggested explanation was generic
public relations. As a conference organizer put it, having foreigners speak
Persian on television gives good feelings to Iranians about their culture, and
interviews with Americans might alter stereotypical views about America. A
second aim behind government sponsorship of the conference may relate to
possibly utilitarian implications of these two notions: (1) that a special
relationship exists between the genesis and existence of the neo-Persian
language and the historical establishment and expansion of Islam on the
Iranian plateau; and (2) that Persian language materials and teaching
around the world
might prove a vehicle for the dissemination of official Iranian views about
religion and culture. While these were probably part of the justification of
the conference, it also had many implications that went beyond the
political and religious configuration of the current regime. Other
questions may still be asked about political issues such as the treatment
of minorities, but the conference afforded numerous opportunities for
sensing the wide diversity of opinion among Iranian academics regarding
the present government.
     The individual impressions of the American participants differed according
to their backgrounds. Only one of the American group (Hillman) is a specialist
in Persian language pedagogy and literature, while the others use Persian for
their research in Islamic studies, and from time to time give reading courses
or sections for students who already have advanced reading ability in
Persian. Only two of the group (Hillman and Godlas) had previously lived
in Iran, while the rest had considerably more experience speaking Urdu or
Arabic than Persian, from living in South Asia or Arab countries. In a
farewell conversation with conference organizer `Ali Asghar She`r-Dust,
the Islamicists emphasized how extraordinarily helpful it was to their
work to have the opportunity to meet Iranian colleagues and improve their
spoken Persian. In response She`r-Dust stated that Iranian organizations
would definitely like to bring over small groups of American scholars for
brief visits, perhaps a month at a time, with sessions at different major
Iranian universities. They are also committed to the idea of making it
possible for foreign students, including Americans, to come to Iran for
language study. While the current lack of diplomatic relations between
the U.S. and Iran precludes the use of U.S. government funds for research and
study in Iran, there seems to be no barrier in the case of private or Iranian
funding. The presence of non-governmental programs such as the Persian language
institute in Isfahan run by the University of Cologne is another kind of
opportunity that is presently available. All signs seem to indicate that
Americans interested in Iranian studies may cautiously look forward to
increased opportunities for working in Iran, but some serious thinking
and discussion will be necessary to plan how this may best be achieved.



=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 20:20:17 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Newcastle conference
To: talisman@indiana.edu

re: boundaries of internal discourse paper

Steve, the reference in the Newcastle report is probably to a
paper by Rob Stockman, which I did not feel actually justified
the review system in principle (and did not mention the reasons
in the Writings for regarding this as in principle undesirable,
however necessary it might be thought to be). The relationship to
attacks on the Faith is also obscure to me: he didn't deal in any
depth (as I recall) with attacks on this point, although I think
there was a passing reference (and he has said on Talisman that
review does more harm than good - it's our achilles's heel in fact,
so far as attacks in the West go).

What his paper did do was present the approach to review which
is applied in the USA, where they run it more or less as a
writer's workshop for less experienced writers, while trying to
minimize its impact on serious writing. This might in itself be
very useful in helping new writers to get their feet, but in my
opinion it is unfortunate that it is done under the rubric of
'review'. It is way outside the memorandum on Baha'i publishing
which is supposed to provide the framework for the review
system, and it creates a bureaucracy (of 2) and a constituency (of
writers who have been helped) which have an interest in
perpetuating review for reasons which do not relate to its
intended purpose. Much as I would like to have Rob's comments
on my writing, I would prefer the kind of review systems
which function in the UK and the Netherlands, where review is
strictly limited to the terms of the memorandum (or at least, that
is the intention of the NSAs: it is hard to contain reviewers'
tendencies to add a little extra).

Relating review to 'limits of discourse' is itself illegitimate:
there's nothing in the memorandum on Baha'i publishing which
would justify the use of the review system for this purpose. I
wonder in fact why the American friends don't appeal to the
NSA and if necessary to the Universal House of Justice to get
their review process cut back to the strict definition in the
Memorandum - in which limits on internal discourse play no
part. On the experience of the NSA of the UK, if the NSA insists
on the limits and keeps hammering at it for a while, the result is
a review system that works much better than one in which the
well-intentioned meddling of reviewers is allowed more scope.
Perhaps the writer's workshop function which Rob has developed
could be preserved under another hat, such as the Wilmette
institute or the ABS.

Rob maintains that the situation in the USA is different to the UK or the
Netherlands, because in the USA they get hundreds of manuscripts for articles
pamphlets booklets etc from less experienced writers, whereas the UK
apparently reviews only a handful of books per year. I don't know about the
UK, but my impression in the Netherlands is that the ephemeral stuff is
simply not reviewed - in other words, that the situation in the USA would be
very similar if they applied review on a more limited scale. Thanks goodness
songs and greatest-name hubcaps are now free of review!

In the report you posted, Kamran Ekbal's paper on taqiyyah
(dissimulation of belief) was not mentioned (as his paper on
bigamy was omitted from the report on the De Poort conference:
Kamran has a knack for identifying key issues and tackling them
head-on). It was a superb paper - very useful indeed. He showed
that taqiyyah was practised not only by the Bab and the Babis
(but in a manner slightly different to the Shi`ih usage) but also
by Baha'u'llah and at his instructions by the Baha'i community of
Palestine, continuing in various forms up to the time of Shoghi
Effendi. One little gem I recall was the instruction to the Baha'i
men to grow their hair long and in other respects pass as
members of one of the Sufi schools. I think this practice began in
the Baghdad period and continued after they had arrived in Akka
for some time. In which case the law in the Aqdas regarding
keeping hair short would be a step in the abolition of the practice
of taqiyyah (this is my inference, not Ekbal's). The abstract to
this paper says
       "Although Babi and Baha'i sources provide sufficient
       evidence that taqiyyih was practised abundantly by the
       early believers and that this practice remained in use at
       least until the ministry of the Guardian, and in spite of
       reference to the fact that the bab, Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-
       Baha ordained and in one way or another even practised
       taqiyyih themselves, Baha'i authors generally try to rebut
       [the accusation of taqiyyih] en masse. The aim of this
       paper is to provide examples of the practice of taqiyyih
       among babis and early Baha'i in order to discuss the
       proper means and attitude for handling such and similar
       issues in the future."

Sen




=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 20:31:57 +0100 (MET)
Subject: erotic (?repost)
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Brent,
I've read your posting to John, and I've read John's paper on erotic
imagery, and I'm at a loss to understand what you are saying. You say
that you enjoyed the overall theme and content of the paper, so I
assume that you are not simply shocked at the idea that Baha'u'llah
employed erotic imagery (*pace* various people who have jumped to
conclusions mightily and ad a very respected hominum). Such
references could hardly have been new to you anyway, and you don't
object to the references to the maid of heaven etc., in other tablets,
being included in this paper. So what is it precisely about the inclusion
of the tablet of the eternal youth which you thought was blasphemous?
If you are only saying that you think John overstates the case, then
'blasphemous' is a heavy over-statement in itself. If you have any
patience for this after the boots-first treatment you've had, perhaps you
could try to define what specifically seemed different about this
passage which made you think - and say in very strong terms - that it
does not belong in a discussion of erotic imagery????

It could be that you are confusing erotic and sexual, since you say "I
don't see any other sexual imagery at all in the part John quotes, or
summarizes without translating.  The Maid of Heaven merely lifts the
veil from the face of the Manifestation." - but the paper is talking
about erotic imagery in general, not not only explicitly sexual imagery.
This passage in 'the eternal youth' sounds erotic to me, and also (most
interestingly) it is a reversal of roles - the woman is unwrapping a
veiled male beauty, instead of vice versa.
   I entirely agree that the first verses are Mosaic - but it seems clear
that the tablet then switches to the metaphor of a bride and her man.

BTW, I checked out blasphemy in Shoghi Effendi REFER and found
the following things classed as blasphemous:
1- inserting the name Baha'u'llah where the word `God'
is used in prayers (Directives of the Guardian, page 59)
2- saying that the genuflections and washing of hands and face for the
obligatory prayers do not apply to all believers (Light of Divine
Guidance Vol.1, pages 148-149)
3- contending that any particular religion is final (World Order of
Baha'u'llah, page 58)
4- exalting the Guardian to the rank of Centre of the Covenant (World
Order of Baha'u'llah, pages 150-151, see also p 132)
5- exalting `Abdu'l-Baha to the rank of either Baha'u'llah or the Bab
(World Order of Baha'u'llah, page 132)

Since all of the above, or practices approximating to them, are
common enough in various parts of the Baha'i community, I think we
may take it that the Baha'i community can survive a little blasphemy,
so long as we don't get too stubborn about it :-) The time for purity in
the respect will be a few centuries down the line, when we have some
reasonably clear idea of just what Baha'i theological teachings are.

and by-the-way again, you never did respond to that quote I found
about lawyers being a point of imitation. No thoughts at all about the
role of lawyers in the world order??
Sen

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn                           ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47                   email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
                                 ***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
                 and the individuality of each,
         thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------





=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 14:10:13 -0600 (CST)
From: John Bromberek 
Subject: Re: HELP!
To: Cheshmak A Farhoumand 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu


On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Cheshmak A Farhoumand wrote:

> We were talking about the sign of maturity of humanity. Now in the Aqdas
> on the last page there is a verse that says one sign is mentioned in the
> Aqdas and the other in another Tablet. So there are two signs ( i
> remembered this from Baha'i Class). the confusion was as to the two
> signs.

All three of the *two* signs are mentioned and partially explained on
the final two pages of the book--Note # 194, pp. 250-251.

John B.




=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 20:30:39 +0100 (MET)
Subject: rights (?repost)
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Excuse me if this is a duplication. My connection to Talisman fell out
for a couple of days
Sen
-------------------------------------------------------
In my questions regarding natural law, I suggested that some rights,
such as the right to equal treatment and the right to express one's
individuality, are inherent rights rather than rights derived from
a natural duty. Thanks to Burl I think I can add a third natural right
to the list:

 "A full and rewarding sex life is the
natural right of every individual and
it is precisely for this reason that
the institution of marriage was created"
                             -- Shoghi Effendi.
  right on!
            |O|                 """"       <---note new haircut:
       ______\ \             .-'    `-.         Dunedinites would be
      (____     \           /   0  0   \          shocked
     (____        \--------(     oo     I
      (____     ____________\  (____)   }   <---note tongue in cheek
        (______/             `-.____.__/
                               ||||||||
                                 ||||

Question: does this natural right also create a duty?
I don't think so: it is like the right to express one's individuality,
it's a benefit rather than an obligation in any sense.

On the other hand, the right to equal treatment does create a duty -
others (notably kings and rulers and their various representatives)
have a duty to treat us equally - ie to provide us with what the right
implies (equal justice). But apply that model to the right
to a full and rewarding sex life, and you don't come up with anything
which supports the institution of marriage. So I guess you can't
generalize about natural rights.

Sen




=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:06:28 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: more Sinaic Imagery

Sandy--

Your comments remind me a lot of the positions taken by Wicka goddess
worshipers: i.e. that all male spirituality is by definition patriarchal and
phalo-centric. I don't agree with the Wicka people, especially when it
comes to mysticism.

Anyway, a book you need look at which exclusively focuses on the feminine
dimension of spirituality in Islamic esoterism, and for me shed much
light on the dynamics of Baha'i sophiology, is Sachiko Murata's _The Tao
of Islam_ (SUNY: 1989).

Nima

**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit  *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth    *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning.                 *
*                                                            *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg     *
*   and Wilhelm Dilthey                                      *
**************************************************************




=END=


From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:55:57 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject:  Images and Manifestations

    dear All ,

  just a quick thought on jonah's concern for how the Mystical poetry of
Bahau llah shouls be shared and we are speaking of mystical poetry . I
appreciate the concern of believers as well but I am not overly concerned
about hiding from them this dimension of Bhaulah's work. This is the truly
transformative stuff.  And as we know "the object of every Revelation " is
Transformation - right .  "both inwardly and outwardly ".

    If I were to keep scripture from the friends ;  and let us not forget
that works such as *Deathless Youth *  are every bit as much   SACRED
SCRIPTURE as is the Kitab-i Iqan or the Seven Valeys , then the same argument
can be made for virtually everything Baha ullah has written . Do we really
think that the IQAN for example is not a profoundly challenging text and
could mke people both within and without the community a little disturbed .

   I am amazed that we seem to think that the only scripture of the Faith is
what already exists in English translation.  I must confess to not being
overly enamored of the comments Jonah passed on;  the attitude is far to
reminiscent of a "traditional religious orthodoxy" and having recently
encountered it in a personal way in the Faith I am not going to roll over and
play dead and allow this notion to "Define * who or what constitutes the
Revelation of Baha u llah to the exclusion of all others.  No wonder we
remain a largely unknown and irrelevent community in the world .


     My advice  there is a point at which it becomes  necessaary to tell em
to grow up  and stop their self rightous identification with their own level
of understanding as exhausting the possibilities if what this Faith is all
about   or what it could possible mean . If Bahau llah wrote it it was meant
to be read because it has some bearing on our spiritual develpment.

 warm regards,
      terry



=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 22:38:29 +0100 (MET)
Subject: fear & apprehension etc
To: talisman@indiana.edu

re: fear pertaineth to women, taqiyyih, Persian parsing,
  eros and mystic longing, female stereotypes overturned,
  and natural law and rights (did I miss anyone out??)

Dear Quanta,
The phrase you refer to might well come from the Lawh-i Tibb,
which has been translated by Fananapazir & Lambden in BSB
6:4, October 1992. The text is in Majmu`a-yi Alwah-i Mubaraka,
Wilmette 1981, pp 222-226.

Section IX of that tablet switches to Persian, and is addressed to
the Friends (rather than to the physician), calling them to wisdom
(Baha'i version of taqiyyih I think) and steadfastness, as the
means of ensuring the survival and continuity of the community.
Then section X begins: Say: O Friends! Apprehensiveness and
agitation pertaineth unto women. And should the beloved of God
reflect briefly upon the world and its manifest vicissitudes, the
dominance of those who hath been tyrants will not frighten
them." Is this the passage you are looking for?

The commentary says:
At the beginning of this paragraph Baha'u'llah may be addressing
the Baha'i friends (duustaan) of Yazd. He acknowledges that
'apprehensiveness (or 'fear', khawf) and agitation (or perturbation,
upset, nervousness etc., idtiraab = verbal noun of VIII) pertaineth
unto women (or females, Ar. niswaan). It is possible that this
pertains to Yazdi Baha'i women at some stage during the early
1870s, when the Lawh-i Tibb was written. Perhaps, in other
words, there is reference to the situation within the much
persecuted Baha'i community of Yazd; a centre of Muslim anti-
Baha'i persecutions and sporadic Baha'i martyrdoms (1891 CE).

I don't know if I accept this reading - it seems rather apologetic.
On the face of it Baha'u'llah is simply telling the friends not to
be afraid, using the gender stereotype 'don't act like women'. But
the learned will comment on that for us. In fact, would one of
our Persian experts be able to transliterate the line and parse the
sentence? Please? Page 226, top line.

appropos of stereotypes, and the relationship between eros and
mystic longing, I once posted a translation by Denis MacEoin, from
Rituals in Babism and Baha'ism, Appendix 1, p. 93: Instructions
by the Bab for the Spiritual Seeker. It contained this passage:

       And when three hours of the night have passed, go for your
       meal and eat 14 portions in tranquillity and dignity, lest you
       fail to take pleasure in its benefits. When you have finished
       eating, lie down for an hour after performing your ablutions (?
       sA`atan bi'l-wud.U'); make use of perfume and rest in the
       manner God has prescribed for you. Do not rest alone, for God
       does not desire such a state for you. If you should lie alone, in
       spite of being able to do otherwise, you will have disbelieved
       in your Lord and your sin will be unequalled.  Observe God's
       decree concerning women, for they are leaves of the Tree of
       Sinai. Do not harm them for so much as the blink of an eye,
       for, according to the decree of the Book,
       they are not, in the eyes of God, as men think them to be.
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       God is sufficient for you, inwardly and outwardly, as a witness.
       Rest for one hour on your couch, for this is an established right
       for everyone.

I am a little uneasy about Terry's ecstatic/erotic visions, in that he
seems to be talking about transcending-sublimating-incorporating
sexuality into the mystic relationship, and I wonder what is left for
more earthly loves? The Bab here seems to be incorporating human
sexuality, expressed with a human partner, into a rhythm of life which
leads to wholeness and spiritual enlightenment, and that appeals to me
rather more.

BTW - I think I've found another 'established right' (= natural right?)
here. While Jim is thinking about question #1 (which is about how we
know what justice is, not how we achieve it), I've thought of more
rights that aren't linked to duties - like the right of children to nurture
and protection. The link between rights and duties looks less clear-cut
the more I think about it.

Sen

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn                           ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47                   email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
                                 ***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
                 and the individuality of each,
         thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------




=END=


Date: Thu, 01 Feb 96 19:48:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: part 3 of comments on Ghulam-i Khuld

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]


A few more unworthy comments, appearing in square brackets, on
the translation of Lawh-i Ghulam-i Khuld.



Then the spirit died in the temple of each and every creature.
[Not a comment on translation, but this sentence conveys
Baha'u'llah's pronouncement that with coming of the Bab, spirit
was withdrawn from all other religions.  Here the term "hayakil
al-khala'iq" (temple of all created) can be read as a reference
to all earlier religions which by the appearance of the Bab are
rendered null and void.]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.

The robes of the folk of Paradise were rent at this ancient and
                 ----
shining vision.
        ------
[Suggest replacing "folks" with "denizens" and "vision" with
"sight" which is closer to the original "manzar".]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty light.

Thereupon the Voice of Eternity sounded from behind the veils of
                       --------
cloud, calling in a voice enchanting and fair.
-----
["Baqa`" can be rendered as "Eternity" or "Immortality".  And
since I'm suggesting changing "Deathless" to "Eternity", then
let's use "Immortality" in this sentence.  The term "`ama"
rendered as "cloud" here should perhaps be more clearly
translated as "unseen world".]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty
enchantment.

The Tongue of the Unseen proclaimed from the hidden abode of
destiny, "By God!  This Youth--the eyes of the ancients did not
-------
attain to beholding Him!"
[Suggest using "irrevocable decree" to translate "qaza`".]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.

The maids of holiness cried aloud from their chambers of
impenetrable might.

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with manifest
lordship.

By God!  The inhabitants of the all-highest concourse long for
the beauty of this Youth!

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.

Then that Youth raised His head to the concourse of Cherubim.
     ----
[Suggest replacing "that" with "the".]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty spirit.

He spoke a single word, and lo! all who were in the heavens arose
with a new spirit.
[I am not sure if the English is clear, but the sense that one
gets from the original is, when the Bab spoke a single Word, this
*caused* all the dwellers of heavens to be adorned with a new
spirit.  I'm not sure how to edit John's rendering to covey this
thought and perhaps we should just leave it alone ...]


Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty trump.
                                                         -----
[Would "trumpet" make it more clear?]


Then with a glance of unparalleled might He looked upon the
people of the world.

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty glance.

And all who were in creation were raised up by this wondrous
glance.

Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.

Then with His glance He indicated but a few and returned to His
place in the deathless Paradise.
[Again, I don't think the English version is clear.  In the
original a sense is conveyed that the Bab gazed upon a few (the
Letters of the Living?) who arose in His Name, before He was
martyred.  Suggest replacing "deathless" with "eternal" in the
last part.]


This indeed pertaineth to a mighty Cause!

Thus spoke the herald of eternity from the cloud-wrapped throne:
     -----     -         -                 -------------
[Suggest replacing "spoke" with "proclaimed", capitalizing
"herald of eternity" as its a title of the Manifestation of God
and replacing "cloud-wrapped" with "unseen".]

O ye who wait in the valley of patience and fidelity!  O lovers
of the air of nearness and eternity!
                           --------
[In the text of this Tablet printed in "Ayyam-i Tis`ih" the word
used in "Baqa`" which is correctly rendered as eternity.  But I
believe the original Tablet (if a copy is extant) would say
"laqa`".  I suspect that Ishraq-Khavari (or the person
transcribing this Tablet) misread "baqa`" for "laqa`".  Are there
any other copies available so we can double-check?]


take care, ahang.



=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 20:32:35 +0100 (MET)
Subject: democractic (?repost)
To: talisman@indiana.edu

on endorsement:

Dear Kevin, you said that "democracy" (etc.) rests,
... on foundational principles that conflict with those
underlying the World Order that Baha'u'llah established.
Could you specify?

You also say that Shoghi Effendi explicitly stated that the
standards of the Baha'i Faith must not be confused with any
system or theory conceived in the minds of human beings. I
checked on 'standards' and 'confused' in REFER, but did not find
this. A search on 'system' and 'theory' turned up one passage in
God Passes By, pages 326-327, which may be what you are
referring to:
       ...the Administrative Order ... must and will, in a manner
       unparalleled in any previous religion, safeguard from
       schism the Faith from which it has sprung.  Nor is the
       principle governing its operation similar to that which
       underlies any system, whether theocratic or otherwise,
       which the minds of men have devised for the government
       of human institutions.  Neither in theory nor in practice
       can the Administrative Order of the Faith of Baha'u'llah
       be said to conform to any type of democratic government,
       to any system of autocracy, to any purely aristocratic
       order, or to any of the various theocracies, whether
       Jewish, Christian or Islamic which mankind has witnessed
       in the past.  It incorporates within its structure certain
       elements which are to be found in each of the three
       recognized forms of secular government, is devoid of the
       defects which each of them inherently possesses, and
       blends the salutary truths which each undoubtedly
       contains without vitiating in any way the integrity of the
       Divine verities on which it is essentially founded.  The
       hereditary authority which the Guardian of the
       Administrative Order is called upon to exercise, and the
       right of the interpretation of the Holy Writ solely
       conferred upon him; the powers and prerogatives of the
       Universal House of Justice, possessing the exclusive right
       to legislate on matters not explicitly revealed in the Most
       Holy Book; the ordinance exempting its members from
       any responsibility to those whom they represent, and from
       the obligation to conform to their views, convictions or
       sentiments; the specific provisions requiring the free and
       democratic election by the mass of the faithful of the
       Body that constitutes the sole legislative organ in the
       world-wide Baha'i community - these are among the
       features which combine to set apart the Order identified
       with the Revelation of Baha'u'llah from any of the
       existing systems of human government.

But this refers to 'the administrative order' and not to 'the
standards of the Faith' - in other words there is no contradiction I
think between Baha'u'llah explicitly endorsing democracy (or
representative government, to be precise, see Epistle to the Son
of the Wolf page 61, Proclamation of Baha'u'llah page 34) as a
method of national government, and Shoghi Effendi saying here
that the ordering of the Baha'i community is not democratic in
some respects - among other things because it includes a
hereditary guardianship and responsibility is accounted for
upwards (as in a business) and not downwards (as in a
democracy). They are talking about two different institutions, and
the applicable principles are specific to institutions. In the same
way, the elected and appointed institutions function in radically
different ways, the fund and the huququ'llah, the House of
worship and the house of justice etc - in each case the operating
principles are specific to the institution and are not 'the standards
of the Faith' in any general sense. Ethical principles, on the other
hand, do seem to apply equally in every organ.

Hope this helps,

Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn                           ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47                   email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
                                 ***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
                 and the individuality of each,
         thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------




=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 12:21:00 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Thank you for the break

Hello All, I want to thank you all for the wonderful break I have been given
during the past 24 hours from Talisman.   This break gave me the opportunity
to see some friends, make phone calls, and go out to dinner.    I have found
some temp barter work, and was able to do a load of laundry to boot.   I
want to thank you for phenomenal interim we are experiencing...   It is just
a joy to behold.  (grin)


Thanks again,     :-{}
Margreet




=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:21:28 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Prosperity of Humankind

I have the statement on "The Prosperity of Humankind" on disk. I can send it
to anyone who is interested.

You can also retrieve it from the following URL:

http://sunsite.unc.edu/Bahai/Texts/English/The-Prosperity-Of-Humankind.html


Arsalan
Arsalan J. Sadighi


 "Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
         that is clearly none of your business!"     Battista





=END=


From: Mark Bamford 
To: "'Talisman'" 
Subject: Artist Compilation
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:21:09 -0800



Dear Talismanians -

I am looking for a compilation of Baha'i writing as they pertain to the =
artist and the arts in general. Obviously, there are numerous references =
to the arts in Baha'u'llah's writings, has anyone ever compiled them =
into one handy book similar to the many other compilations I have seen?

If not, perhaps Talisman would be a good place to start such am =
endeavor.

Mark Bamford (Artist)




=END=


From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:08:41 -0500
To: nightbrd@humboldt1.com, friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp, tan1@cornell.edu,
        talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia

In a message dated 96-02-02 04:47:37 EST, nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
writes:

>Subj:	Re: status quo and utopia
>Date:	96-02-02 04:47:37 EST
>From:	nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
>To:	Dave10018@aol.com, friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp, tan1@cornell.edu,
>talisman@indiana.edu
>
>Dear Dave,
>
>You said:
>
>>>, I don't thinkconservative republicans have a better grasp of american
>>problems of poverty and governance than liberal democrats do.
>
>In some respects you are right.  In America today both sides are at a loss
>for the real
>answers to the problems.  That is where the Faith has something to offer and
>why we
>need to figure out for ourselves just what that is so we can offer it ---
>the reading of
>any of the letters from the Universal House of Justice in the last few years
>indicates
>as much.


The letters from the House and its agencies (such as the Baha'i International
Community) on peace and, more recently, prosperity, do indeed provide the
model for Baha'i constructive engagement. We should stay aloof from partisan
disputes, and I only reacted because of the partisan tone of your letter and
your lack of sympathy for people who I have known for many years and know to
be working in good faith. I do not doubt the sincerity of many who feel that
the best course for this country is to trust in the workings of "unbridled
capitalism," though I doubt the wisdom of such a course and can point to
 reservations expressed by the Gaurdian and the House.

Further, we understand from studying Shoghi Effendi that with the disunity
and moral weakness and materialism of modern sociey and the immensity of the
crisis of collapse and readjustment society is enduring, even the best ideas
of the most dedicated stateswomen and men can produce disaster as likely as
good. As I said before, my father served in the Johnson administration. For
two years he gave speeches all over the country as well as administering an
innovative program designed to require local government and community
activists to form common plans to attack a broad range of urban problems.
This took a lot of wrestling with conflicting interests and political
agendas, but produced some effective programs, pilot programs which were
never fully funded after 1968. When my father gave a written speech he was
required by admistration policy to defend the Vietnam war!  To avoid
mentioning the war, he gave all of his speeches for two years as
"off-the-cuff-remarks" rather than as written speeches. The Vietnam War also
did incalculable damage to the War on Poverty. The liberal wing of the
democratic party lost its very tenuous hold on power as a result of it 10
years before the inevitable Southern turn toward the Republicans as a result
of the 1965 voting rights act.(Johnson predicted that taking a stand for
civil rights would cost the democrats the South.) The liberals lost what
little power they had in 1968, when Hubert Humphrey lost the presidency. I
recently spoke to one of Humphrey's speechwriters, who said Humphrey knew he
didn't have a chance because he got started too late, when Johnson suddenly
decided not to run.  Liberal programs initiated in '65 and '66 had enormous
impact despite the compromises with conservatives   and local intersts in
congress made in setting them up, the tragic impact of the war, which
included the radicalism and distrust that set people who would otherwise have
been allies against progressive programs and the growth in use of drugs. Some
positive aspects of the War on Poverty even survived under Richard Nixon, but
he turned away from the kind of broad effort needed, not only or even
primarily in terms of money, but in terms of setting up the kind of program,
like model cities, designed to require local agencies both public and
private, to find ways to work together to have an impact on social inequities
and systemic discrimination.

>Headstart is the *one* shinning spot on the checkered social programs of the
>last 50
>years.
>
This is a sweeping statement. You had good experiences with that program. The
original GI bill had an enormous impact, expanding the middle class and
expanding education and home ownership. There are other examples as well.
Public health programs, low income housing, middle class housing programs
like FHA mortgage programs, et cetera.

  And just where did the all the hew and cry to decriminalize
>marijuana
>and allow people to have the freedom to use recreational drugs like LSD,
>mushrooms, peyote, and cocaine come from?  Should we look to the left or the
>right?

Such "hue and cry" has come from the fringes, anarchist left and libertarian
right. A few mayors, such as Curt Shmoke of Baltimore, have recently
advocated decriminalization in the attempt to put more money into treatment,
which is far more effective than the "war on drugs," but this is a recent
development. Other than him, who are the prominant commentators calling for
decriminalization? Oh yeah, William Buckley, what a liberal!
>
>> Meanwhile the huge federal deficit was engineered by the Reagan
>>administration, which insisted on bizarre tax cuts.
>
>Whoa bro'!  Reagan brought the best decade of material prosperity this
>country has
>had in this century.  (by the way I did *not* vote for him either time)
>What drove
>up the debt was the *entitlements* --- everything from Headstart.... to
>Medi-care

Nevertheless, Reagan pushed through his tax cuts without payihng for them,
relying on the "Laffer curve."

>When
>Reagan dropped the rate of the capital gains tax rate money flowed into the
>treasurery.  And do you know who benefited the most from the capital gains
>tax cut?

All of this is quite debatable. The point is that you should be careful not
to imagine that people who don't agree are insincere, dishonest, stupid or
crazy. I promise to do the same.


>
>I agree the corruption is bad, but everyone has their hands in it --- both
>sides are
>*tainted*, to put it nicely.


Actually, I am aware that Johnson was improperly involved with deals
involving his Texas interests, including tv stations when he was in the White
House. I would not say there was no corruption in the Johnson admistration,
but the Department of Housing and Urban Development was a serious place. The
secretary of H.U.D. was not indicted for corruption. This is because the
place had a purpose, while the Reaganites regarded it as a porkbarrel and
treated it that way, with the result that millions of dollars were squandered
in frauds and several officials went to jail and several narrowly escaped
going to jail.
>> Doug,
>>but I think you should know there are other ways to look at these things.
>
>I *do* look at things from as many aspects as possible.  When I was younger
>(being a
>dottering old 49 now)  I thrived on taking the opposite side in any
>discussion
>because it enabled me to learn why others thought as they did.  I
>challenged, they
>responded,
>I learned.  Before labels are handed out to each of us (and the *only* label
>I now put
>on me is *Baha'i*) consider that in 1965-6 I successfully and legally
>avoided the draft,
>twice, to fight in civil war in Vietnam, in 1968 I voted for Eldridge
>Cleaver and the
>Peace and Freedom Party in the Presidential election --

This does not mark you as a discerning student of politics,Doug.
As a sidelight I knew in '74 in D.C. a new Baha'i who had run an Arizona
youth for Nixon drive. It took Cambodia to disillusion him. Myself, the more
I read about Nixon and Kennedy, the more alike they seem, though Kennedy
projected such an appealing image.(see the recent article on Kennedy and
Nixon in Vanity Fair) Ah, I miss Bobby though. Don't you?

Actually, your drift from alienated left to alienated right is not unusual.
In fact many of the militiamen have a similar history, and this is not a new
story, but the same old story as in Germany, where Hitler and his associates
designed their program to appeal to disaffected socialists as well as to
nationalists.
> This
>time I will vote for the Republican --- even if they put up a corpse --- he
>couldn't do
>any worse.

maybe not, but on the other hand they might.
>
>No, the Republicans are not any better than the Democrats in the long run
>--- but in
>the short run they want to devolve the power of the government back to the
>governed.  After 50 years of *big brother* knowing what is best for us we
>need to
>wake up.  While I in no way equate the Republican Party with the ideals of
>the
>Baha'i Faith, at least consider this:  that the goal of the Faith is to make
>the lives of
>all the people of the world better, for the first time in the history of the
>world, by
>engaging them in the decisions that will effect their and their families
>lives.  Read
>and study the "Prosperity of Humankind" and tell me it ain't so.
>
I am glad you can appreciate the idealism in the republicans.we should be
broad in our sympathies. i like hillary, yes i do.

>
>PS.  As a friend of mine says, "Everybody has buttons that set them off, and
>you just
>pushed one of mine."  I apologize if I came on too strong and strident.  I'm
>still in
>transition from the "old world order" to the New World Order.
>
>We are all in transition. Remarkable how steadily we have progressed toward
the Lesser Peace in the international arena despite the low level of American
political discourse. I think the international community may well serve
someday soon to save America from the grip of right wing hysteria. The forces
of reaction and the forces of provocation are gathering steam. Be calm, my
friend.

cheers,

dave taylor
>




=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:24:50 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alex Tavangar 
Subject: Re: TABLETS OF BAHA'U'LLAH 2

Dear Steve:

I am most appreciative of your generosity in sharing such spiritually
nutritious information with us.  A quick perusal of your introduction to
Lawh-i Kull al-t'am wetted my appetite for more.  I would also like to ask
for two small clarifications.


>     He then explains that for those who "dwell in the "Crimson Isle"
>(jazirat al-amr)

The word al-amr is translated as Cause (Sahib al-amr = bearer of the Cause)
and Command (mazhar al-amr = Manifestation of the Command) in two other
passages in your post.  As crimson is the English word that has been used
for translating al-hamr'a (i.e., safinat al-hamr'a, The Crimson Ark), would
the correct translation for jazirat al-amr be "Isle of Command" or "Isle of
Decree"?

>the "Temple of the Divine Unicity" (haykal al-ahadiyya)  whom
>the aggressors caused to be "imprisoned in the land"
>and "concealed in the cities" (allusions to Mirza Yahya?).

Was Mirza Yahya ever imprisoned?


I would also like to invite Mr. Habib Riazati, if he is still on this list,
to share with us some of his insights and information about the Islamic,
historical, and other references in this Tablet of Baha'u'llah.

Best Regards,

Alex B. Tavangar




=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:45:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: Riaz Missaghian <100257.713@compuserve.com>
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: In John's defense (Re: Sinaic Imagery)

Dear Fiona--

Thanks for pointing it out to me. I know, that's why I had to send a
correction.

Among Rudolf Otto's works his _Mysticism East and West_ is my personal
favorite. His _Idea of the Holy_ is good too, especially the discussion
of the mysterium tremendum. Eliade's _Yoga: Immortality and Freedom_ and
_Shamanism_ are my two favorite works of his.

Speaking of Eliade, check out our very own Steven Scholl's article on
Shaykhism in Eliade's _Encyclopedia of Religion_ some time. It's great!

Nima


**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit  *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth    *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning.                 *
*                                                            *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg     *
*   and Wilhelm Dilthey                                      *
**************************************************************




=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 20:14:11 +0100 (MET)
Subject: erotic allegory
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Brent,
I've read your posting to John, and I've read John's paper on erotic
imagery, and I'm at a loss to understand what you are saying. You say
that you enjoyed the overall theme and content of the paper, so I
assume that you are not simply shocked at the idea that Baha'u'llah
employed erotic imagery (*pace* various people who have jumped to
conclusions mightily and ad a very respected hominum). Such
references could hardly have been new to you anyway, and you don't
object to the references to the maid of heaven etc., in other tablets,
being included in this paper. So what is it precisely about the inclusion
of the tablet of the eternal youth which you thought was blasphemous?
If you are only saying that you think John overstates the case, then
'blasphemous' is a heavy over-statement in itself. If you have any
patience for this after the boots-first treatment you've had, perhaps you
could try to define what specifically seemed different about this
passage which made you think - and say in very strong terms - that it
does not belong in a discussion of erotic imagery????

It could be that you are confusing erotic and sexual, since you say "I
don't see any other sexual imagery at all in the part John quotes, or
summarizes without translating.  The Maid of Heaven merely lifts the
veil from the face of the Manifestation." - but the paper is talking
about erotic imagery in general, not not only explicitly sexual imagery.
This passage in 'the eternal youth' sounds erotic to me, and also (most
interestingly) it is a reversal of roles - the woman is unwrapping a
veiled male beauty, instead of vice versa.
   I entirely agree that the first verses are Mosaic - but it seems clear
that the tablet then switches to the metaphor of a bride and her man.

BTW, I checked out blasphemy in Shoghi Effendi REFER and found
the following things classed as blasphemous:
1- inserting the name Baha'u'llah where the word `God'
is used in prayers (Directives of the Guardian, page 59)
2- saying that the genuflections and washing of hands and face for the
obligatory prayers do not apply to all believers (Light of Divine
Guidance Vol.1, pages 148-149)
3- contending that any particular religion is final (World Order of
Baha'u'llah, page 58)
4- exalting the Guardian to the rank of Centre of the Covenant (World
Order of Baha'u'llah, pages 150-151, see also p 132)
5- exalting `Abdu'l-Baha to the rank of either Baha'u'llah or the Bab
(World Order of Baha'u'llah, page 132)

Since all of the above, or practices approximating to them, are
common enough in various parts of the Baha'i community, I think we
may take it that the Baha'i community can survive a little blasphemy,
so long as we don't get too stubborn about it :-) The time for purity in
the respect will be a few centuries down the line, when we have some
reasonably clear idea of just what Baha'i theological teachings are.

and by-the-way again, you never did respond to that quote I found
about lawyers being a point of imitation. No thoughts at all about the
role of lawyers in the world order??
Sen

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn                           ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47                   email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
                                 ***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
                 and the individuality of each,
         thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------





=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 13:59:33 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Erotic Imagery

Beloved Ones,

On Thursday, 2/1/96, Sandy Fotos wrote:  I wonder how well this imagery
resonates with the other half of humanity.  Regarding women's sex drive...

What has this imagery to do with sex drive?  The verses of Rumi, the qawwali
music of Nusrat, the songs of Kabir, ghazals of Hafez and numerous mystic
poets continually point to the longing, the yearning for the Beloved that we
are born with through the imagery of love and desire.  The nearest thing
that dunya (this world) has managed to manifest is the longing of lovers for
each other.  Yes, in this world the universal experience of people is that
sexual attraction, which is only a shadow or, if you will, distortion of
what the True Longing is.  But it is an image to which people relate.  What
is that one thing that mortal creatures will lose sleep and health over,
compromise their apparent values for, stay up all night about?  Even though
this obsession is unhealthy when directed toward the physical manifestations
of His Names, quite the opposite is true when this devotion is properly
channeled.  All of these poets know that they are using only shadows to
describe the indescribable.  But if we don't attempt to create a vocabulary
for that which is unspeakable, how can we speak to each other about that
which matters (insha'llah) most to us, that we value more than life itself?
What woman has not experienced the longing for her ideal love?  Just because
the majority of Sufi poets were male, does not indicate some sort of
conspiracy against women or some strange drive to sexually dominate to which
the "gentler sex" cannot relate.  It's not about that.  It's about the
manifestations of His Names abounding in the world around us.  The signs of
the unseen in our mundane lives.  This, of course is only one level of
remembrance, but I count it a  blessing to find myself in a state of hearing
his Names in every sound, of seeing His beauty in beauty of the world around
me, of beholding his face in the faces I encounter in my life, of hearing
His music in my music.  The fact that the Blessed Beauty used this imagery
to convey His experiences, must point to something.
"We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it
becomes clear to them that this in indeed the truth."  (help me out, oh
People with the Book Handy, my Qur'an is at home).  Maybe Fussilat?

Abdu'l-Baha speaks of this station of love in his commentary on the Hidden
Treasure hadith:

        "And know that this effulgence may break forth,on certain occasions,
upon the lovers of the Beauty of the Peerless One and upone those attracted
to the Mighty Presence within the places of manifestation and mirrors.
Thus, His Holiness Moses (may peace be upon our Prophet and upon Him) saw
the glimmerings and gleamings of the effulgences of the Hidden Unity in the
"Tree that belongs to neither East nor West" and heard the revitalising call
of the Essence of Ipseity from that Divinely-kindled fire.  And from this
soul-uplifting Divine call and this effulgence from the light of the Divine
dawn, the lamp of Love and the light of companionship and affection was
kindled in his heart and the veils of separation and plurality between the
Revealer and revealed were burnt away."

and his citation of Imam Hassan:

        "I have the essence of a knowledge which were I to reveal it
        It would be siad to me:  this man worships idols."

and of ibn Farid:

        "Each beauty is loaned its beauty from His Beauty.
        Yea, even the beauty of every fair maiden."

Can not Moses' experience be likened to that of Baha'u'llah.  In a state of
utter desolation and separation, thrown into the Siyah Chal, etc. etc. (see
Shoghi Effendi if you want an account that would do it justice..) to be
given this vision!  Why is this so offensive?  A gleaming breast?

A few years ago I spent several days with a very high fever mostly asleep.
I had a dream.  In the dream I was being held in the lap of this Glorious
Being.  It was as if I were the size of a child of 7 or 8, but clearly had
my own woman's body.  There were there these locks of flowing black hair and
a feeling of the strength and protection offered by this "Man." I buried my
head in His breast and wept.  I could not look upon His face.  I had the
feeling of absolute safety and perfect peace, of needing nothing, of being
eternally cradled by this Presence.  This Presence, in the the dream, had
muscle and bone and flesh and raven locks and warmth sweet breath.  It was
not about sexual anything.  If this Being were made of only light, I doubt
that I would have felt as comforted, as truly loved as I was in this vision.
This Father-Lover-Comforter needed to appear to me in just this way.

This same feeling overcame me in Haifa just over a year later on a three-day
visit (my honeymoon).  The Shrine of Baha'u'llah was completely unpeopled
during my visits and I knelt before His holy threshold with the feeling that
there was no reason to be anywhere else, nothing to need, want, hope for, as
it was all right here.  It was then that I connected the dream to I wept
with joy at the absolute inner stillness and loving acceptance.  I was with
my True Love.  My other true love (my husband) did rounds of silent dhikr in
the Shrine and tea in the pilgrim house all day until the Shrine was closing
and we had to leave.  He knew.

We're seeking our True Love, for goodness' sake.  As long as we're in this
world, I doubt It will be an androgyne.

Please excuse the length of this posting.  I have little self-restraint
after all of the mystic feasts on Talisman, and also suffer from the sleep
deprivation of pregnant night vigils (glad to know we've been sharing the
wee hours, Terry).  I have to dry my eyes and get back to work.  Thanks for
provoking this holy memory...

Love to you all,
LuAnne

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Your hands have taken me from myself.  Your voice has sung within my soul.
Your melody has filled this reed.  It's You I love, it's You I need."


    Yunus Emre
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^





=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 20:13:32 +0100 (MET)
Subject: democracy
To: talisman@indiana.edu

on endorsement:

Dear Kevin, you said that "democracy" (etc.) rests,
... on foundational principles that conflict with those
underlying the World Order that Baha'u'llah established.
Could you specify?

You also say that Shoghi Effendi explicitly stated that the
standards of the Baha'i Faith must not be confused with any
system or theory conceived in the minds of human beings. I
checked on 'standards' and 'confused' in REFER, but did not find
this. A search on 'system' and 'theory' turned up one passage in
God Passes By, pages 326-327, which may be what you are
referring to:
       ...the Administrative Order ... must and will, in a manner
       unparalleled in any previous religion, safeguard from
       schism the Faith from which it has sprung.  Nor is the
       principle governing its operation similar to that which
       underlies any system, whether theocratic or otherwise,
       which the minds of men have devised for the government
       of human institutions.  Neither in theory nor in practice
       can the Administrative Order of the Faith of Baha'u'llah
       be said to conform to any type of democratic government,
       to any system of autocracy, to any purely aristocratic
       order, or to any of the various theocracies, whether
       Jewish, Christian or Islamic which mankind has witnessed
       in the past.  It incorporates within its structure certain
       elements which are to be found in each of the three
       recognized forms of secular government, is devoid of the
       defects which each of them inherently possesses, and
       blends the salutary truths which each undoubtedly
       contains without vitiating in any way the integrity of the
       Divine verities on which it is essentially founded.  The
       hereditary authority which the Guardian of the
       Administrative Order is called upon to exercise, and the
       right of the interpretation of the Holy Writ solely
       conferred upon him; the powers and prerogatives of the
       Universal House of Justice, possessing the exclusive right
       to legislate on matters not explicitly revealed in the Most
       Holy Book; the ordinance exempting its members from
       any responsibility to those whom they represent, and from
       the obligation to conform to their views, convictions or
       sentiments; the specific provisions requiring the free and
       democratic election by the mass of the faithful of the
       Body that constitutes the sole legislative organ in the
       world-wide Baha'i community - these are among the
       features which combine to set apart the Order identified
       with the Revelation of Baha'u'llah from any of the
       existing systems of human government.

But this refers to 'the administrative order' and not to 'the
standards of the Faith' - in other words there is no contradiction I
think between Baha'u'llah explicitly endorsing democracy (or
representative government, to be precise, see Epistle to the Son
of the Wolf page 61, Proclamation of Baha'u'llah page 34) as a
method of national government, and Shoghi Effendi saying here
that the ordering of the Baha'i community is not democratic in
some respects - among other things because it includes a
hereditary guardianship and responsibility is accounted for
upwards (as in a business) and not downwards (as in a
democracy). They are talking about two different institutions, and
the applicable principles are specific to institutions. In the same
way, the elected and appointed institutions function in radically
different ways, the fund and the huququ'llah, the House of
worship and the house of justice etc - in each case the operating
principles are specific to the institution and are not 'the standards
of the Faith' in any general sense. Ethical principles, on the other
hand, do seem to apply equally in every organ.

Hope this helps,

Sen

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn                           ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47                   email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
                                 ***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
                 and the individuality of each,
         thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------




=END=


From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
Reply-To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
To: belove@sover.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Internet query

Philip -
This net is not listed on Yanof's inter-connectivity list that I have but you
might try the latest edition to see if it is there now -

 > This guide is available via anonymous ftp to: ftp.csd.uwm.edu
 > Also via WWW/Mosaic, URL is: http://alpha.acast.nova.edu/cgi-bin/inmgq.pl

Also, try posting your question to bahai-tech@bcca.org.

Don C



He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing



=END=


Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:11:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters 
To: "Stephen R. Friberg" 
Cc: talisman , SFotos@eworld.com
Subject: (Not?) Erotic Imagery

Stephen's point is well taken. The dictionary defines erotic as:

1. Of or concerning sexual love and desire; amatory.
2. Tending to arouse sexual desire.
3. Dominated by sexual love or desire.

These definitions are, it is true, not quite appropriate. Unfortunately,
the synonyms listed in my thesaurus are even less felicitous. I'll think
about it and see if perhaps writers like Schimmel have more appropriate
terms. Perhaps Terry could elaborate on his statement that " What i do
find are the use of metaphors which can justly be called erotic."

And Sandy, *did* I misunderstand your points?

-Jonah

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527






=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 20:12:38 +0100 (MET)
Subject: newcastle report
To: talisman@indiana.edu

re: boundaries of internal discourse paper

Steve, the reference in the Newcastle report is probably to a
paper by Rob Stockman, which I did not feel actually justified
the review system in principle (and did not mention the reasons
in the Writings for regarding this as in principle undesirable,
however necessary it might be thought to be). The relationship to
attacks on the Faith is also obscure to me: he didn't deal in any
depth (as I recall) with attacks on this point, although I think
there was a passing reference (and he has said on Talisman that
review does more harm than good - it's our achilles's heel in fact,
so far as attacks in the West go).

What his paper did do was present the approach to review which
is applied in the USA, where they run it more or less as a
writer's workshop for less experienced writers, while trying to
minimize its impact on serious writing. This might in itself be
very useful in helping new writers to get their feet, but in my
opinion it is unfortunate that it is done under the rubric of
'review'. It is way outside the memorandum on Baha'i publishing
which is supposed to provide the framework for the review
system, and it creates a bureaucracy (of 2) and a constituency (of
writers who have been helped) which have an interest in
perpetuating review for reasons which do not relate to its
intended purpose. Much as I would like to have Rob's comments
on my writing, I would prefer the kind of review systems
which function in the UK and the Netherlands, where review is
strictly limited to the terms of the memorandum (or at least, that
is the intention of the NSAs: it is hard to contain reviewers'
tendencies to add a little extra).

Relating review to 'limits of discourse' is itself illegitimate:
there's nothing in the memorandum on Baha'i publishing which
would justify the use of the review system for this purpose. I
wonder in fact why the American friends don't appeal to the
NSA and if necessary to the Universal House of Justice to get
their review process cut back to the strict definition in the
Memorandum - in which limits on internal discourse play no
part. On the experience of the NSA of the UK, if the NSA insists
on the limits and keeps hammering at it for a while, the result is
a review system that works much better than one in which the
well-intentioned meddling of reviewers is allowed more scope.
Perhaps the writer's workshop function which Rob has developed
could be preserved under another hat, such as the Wilmette
institute or the ABS.

In the report you posted, Kamran Ekbal's paper on taqiyyah
(dissimulation of belief) was not mentioned (as his paper on
bigamy was omitted from the report on the De Poort conference:
Kamran has a knack for identifying key issues and tackling them
head-on). It was a superb paper - very useful indeed. He showed
that taqiyyah was practised not only by the Bab and the Babis
(but in a manner slightly different to the Shi`ih usage) but also
by Baha'u'llah and at his instructions by the Baha'i community of
Palestine, continuing in various forms up to the time of Shoghi
Effendi. One little gem I recall was the instruction to the Baha'i
men to grow their hair long and in other respects pass as
members of one of the Sufi schools. I think this practice began in
the Baghdad period and continued after they had arrived in Akka
for some time. In which case the law in the Aqdas regarding
keeping hair short would be a step in the abolition of the practice
of taqiyyah (this is my inference, not Ekbal's). The abstract to
this paper says
       "Although Babi and Baha'i sources provide sufficient
       evidence that taqiyyih was practised abundantly by the
       early believers and that this practice remained in use at
       least until the ministry of the Guardian, and in spite of
       reference to the fact that the bab, Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-
       Baha ordained and in one way or another even practised
       taqiyyih themselves, Baha'i authors generally try to rebut
       [the accusation of taqiyyih] en masse. The aim of this
       paper is to provide examples of the practice of taqiyyih
       among babis and early Baha'i in order to discuss the
       proper means and attitude for handling such and similar
       issues in the future."

Sen

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn                           ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47                   email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
                                 ***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
                 and the individuality of each,
         thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------




=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 96 12:04 PST
To: Juan R Cole 
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: de Maistre
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

>
>
>
>
>>Human beings need to be constrained by feelings of hereditary guilt, and
>by having their individualism enclosed in a community.
>>De Maistre denounces Liberalism's naive belief in the possibility of
>peace, insisting that men are naturally violent.
>
     Sounds like a P.E. Teacher to me.

    Burl

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from            Book
Stacks, Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************




=END=


From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:32:04 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: from power to power


Having just called for a deeper examination of concepts such as "power,"
"coercion," and "freedom," and how our understanding of such terms can and
should be revolutionized by the Baha'i Revelation, it seems fitting that I at
least make an effort to begin such an inquiry, although I cannot claim to be
qualified to finish it.

Most people simply accept that they know what "power" means.  If called upon
to actually define the term, the educated and articulate might venture
something like this:  Power is what A uses when A gets B to do something B
doesn't want to do.

Some have explored the subject at far greater length.  One quite readable
effort is John Kenneth Galbraith's _The Anatomy of Power,_ which contains
many useful insights.

To summarize quickly, Galbraith identifies three kinds of power and three
sources of power.  The three kinds of power he calls condign, compensatory,
and conditioned.  Condign power is exercised by the threat of force;
compensatory power exercised by the promise of reward; and conditioned power
exercised by persuading the target person(s) that the proposed path is the
right and good choice.

Galbraith's three sources of power are personality, wealth, and organization
(where personality stands for both physical prowess, which is the only source
of power under animal conditions, and for what we might call charisma or
leadership ability).  Although any of the three sources may allow the
exercise of all three kinds of power, the links are strongest from
personality to condign, from wealth to compensatory, and from organization to
conditioned power.

Galbraith further observes that modern liberal cultures regard condign power
as less legitimate than the others, and regard the exercise of power by
conditioning as not only more correct morally, but also more efficient.

(After reading Kenneth Lux's _Adam Smith's Mistake:  How a Moral Philosopher
Invented Economics and Ended Morality,_ and knowing what I do about the way
corporations treat human beings, I am sure that efficiency is all that
motivates modern corporations to prefer conditioned power over less pleasant
forms of coercion.)

Conditioned power still employs the same basic definition of what power is,
and Galbraith never deeply challenges it:  A still gets B do what A wants,
when without the persuasion of conditioning, B wouldn't want to do it.

Galbraith paints a valuable picture of the role of power in liberal
societies, because the vast majority of the population in liberal cultures
shares this unquestioned assumption.  But as I read _The Anatomy of Power,_
the conviction grew stronger and stronger in me that the very foundation of
his otherwise erudite scholarship was flawed, because he had failed to
consider the possibility that power could be anything other than the
subjugation of one party's interests and desires to another's.

The same conviction stays with me when I read most of what Baha'is write
about how the Baha'i Administrative Order needs to be reformed, and how
liberal democracy is the model of government Baha'u'llah would support.

For it seems to me that the Baha'i Revelation, and its central emphasis on
the principle of world unity, brings vitality to an entirely different
conception of power.

To employ parallel terms, a Baha'i conception of the highest level of power
might be something like this:  A and B working together achieve something
both want, but which neither A not B could have achieved working alone.  This
might be termed cooperative power.

This sort of conception is hardly new.  In fact, many defenders of market
economics have tried to portray capitalism as employing this model of power
-- as eschewing coercion by allowing only exchanges freely contracted by
parties seeking their own benefit.  However, its foundation *is* different,
for the assumption is that each party involved regards the cooperative aspect
of the exchange as secondary to the fact that it will serve his or her
immediate self-interest.

A Baha'i conception would place cooperation as the highest source of power,
something to be valued in itself; but liberal capitalism values cooperation
only as an accidental consequence, or as a necessary evil.

And when one looks at the world, and how capitalist theory twists and turns
before it finds its way into real-world practice, one sees the same world
that Galbraith is exploring:  one in which the theory of free exchange masks
a reality of cooperation gained by the threat of force, deprivation, and
ostracism.  One in which people most readily comprehend power as inextricably
intertwined with subjugation, rather than associating power with the
achievement of lofty goals.

In this discussion of power we see that Baha'i ideals and liberal ideals have
a strong point of agreement on what the best condition would be, but that in
actual practice, liberal ideals end up as self-defeating, re-creating the
same injustices they sought to banish.  This is due to their flawed
theoretical foundation.

This failure precludes any effort to build a Baha'i political theory upon the
same theoretical foundation which caused liberalism to founder.  Until we
recognize the magnitude of the task, and how deep our analysis must go before
we will have rooted out our flawed, culturally-embedded assumptions.

As promised, I leave the task unfinished.  For perhaps the first step toward
redefining the role of power in any Baha'i political theory will be in its
very creation:  only many working together will achieve it.  There may be no
Baha'i Hobbes or Locke or Jefferson, no hero/scholars whose names will adorn
opposing factions in future academic debates.

The Baha'i community as a whole must build this theory, as well as usher it
into practical fulfillment; the most any one of us can do is add a stone or
two, or mortar a few together, or smooth a corner here and there; or perhaps
most importantly of all, urge our co-religionists to recognize our ability to
achieve this lofty goal, to overcome all obstacles, both within ourselves and
within the doubts of a despairing world.

What we have here on Talisman, and on other lists where geographical barriers
have been swept away by the Internet, is a way to focus a number of our best
minds' efforts on the task of giving those communities a foundation on which
to build.  Never would I imagine my own mind to have to capacity to build
such a foundation alone; but together I think we do have that capacity.  All
that remains is for us to pursue it, in cooperation with any communities
willing to help us put it into practice.  Since Terry's community in Omaha
already seems to value the discussions on Talisman, perhaps we could
establish such a cooperative project between Talisman and Omaha?

in service to our great-grandchildren's great-grandchildren,
Kevin





=END=


From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:32:20 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Mapping a tortured landscape


My now defunct game-show host persona may have seemed to devalue and even
mock the efforts some here have made to map the landscape of contemporary
political theories.  Now I shall have to demonstrate that this was not and is
not the case.  Then I shall explain why I think these efforts have not yet
produced a basis for understanding how the Baha'i teachings can contribute to
political theory.

First, I agree wholeheartedly with the repeated assertion by Linda and others
that a Baha'i position is far more sympathetic to modern liberal democracies
than to any form of dictatorship, totalitarianism, or other oppressive
government, although of course nowhere do Baha'is seek to overthrow their
governments.

As recently recognized by Doug Myers, we must overcome our tendency to accept
the false dichotomies imposed by propagandists of every stripe, who attempt
to force us to choose what they want by portraying the choice as a simple
black-and-white issue (with their own chosen position corresponding to purity
and light, of course).  Recognizing that issues presented as black-and-white
can almost invariably be seen as containing many intervening shades of gray
(or, as being on a sliding scale, to use Doug's phrase) is an important first
step to understanding the vast diversity of choices we truly enjoy.

The sliding-scale concept is employed to great effect in Juan's graph of
where the most influential of modern political theories may lie in relation
to one another.  By using two sliding scales, Juan adds another dimension,
(and even mentions the possible existence of a third) thus increasing even
more our ability to visualize the array of choices available in political
theory.

The axes of Juan's graph also recognize a trait so deeply embedded in
American culture (and perhaps to a lesser extent in European cultures, though
I know less of them) that it is seldom examined:  the tendency to view the
economic and the political as separate spheres of human activity and
relationship.

Thus Juan's model incorporates a weakness from Doug's model, in that both
employ terms that we think we understand, but which in reality have not been
adequately defined.  In Doug's model, the sliding scale measures "coercion,"
and in Juan's, the two scales measure "wealth" and "power," but none of these
are defined, although it is fairly clear from context that Juan has simply
relabeled the traditional economic power as "wealth" and left the term
"power" free to stand for political power, and perhaps also for the power of
brute force which the state apparatus wields.

In fact, some would begin a critique of Juan's model by observing that the
American tendency to separate the political and the economic is not a
universal truth -- the argument being that both wealth and political power
are instrumentalities for coercion, and thus that separating these is merely
an artifice to falsely create distinction between capitalist and fascist
theories.  While there may be some merit hiding within such an argument, that
is not the tack I would take.

My own critique goes deeper:  before we can attempt a reliable map of the
political landscape within which all systems, including a Baha'i-inspired
system, can be located and evaluated, we must first clearly define the terms
upon which we seek to build our map.  To include the Baha'i teachings, the
map must take into account the Baha'i Revelation's profound effects on our
understanding of concepts like "power".

This is why I think Juan's graph, although it helps us accurately visualize
where liberal cultures place themselves in the political universe, may
exclude the territory upon which the Baha'i teachings would have us build our
theoretical foundations.

Regards,
Kevin Haines





=END=


From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:32:08 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Game over, man!  Game over!


Yes, no more playing at game-show host for me.

It appears that my earlier effort to employ humor on the subject of moving
toward a substantive Baha'i contribution to political theory was
counterproductive, in that little of what I was trying to say seems to have
been understood.

(I am indebted to Stephen Bedingfield for implanting the subject heading of
this post into my mind many years ago, but to elaborate on the story beyond
this simple acknowledgement would constitute too distracting a digression.
 :)

Now, I'll begin with something I thought I had said before, but which bears
repeating in any case:  in suggesting that a Baha'i-inspired political theory
would be fundamentally different from any theory developed by human minds, I
am not suggesting we recklessly abandon any element of systems currently in
practice.

For example, I am not attacking the liberal-democratic practice of attempting
to support individual rights and freedoms, for in cultures which conceive of
the government and the governed as being in a constant and unavoidable state
of conflict, such rights and freedoms are necessary counterbalances to the
power of government.  Even in the future Golden Age, when we can imagine that
government and the governed will be in much closer harmony than they are now,
their positive relationship will at least partially depend on the recognition
that individuals must freely choose most of what they will believe, think,
and do in life.  Although the conception of what rights are and what role
they play may be profoundly different than in contemporary liberal theory, I
do think that some conception of rights will remain in operation, even in the
Golden Age.

The project I think Baha'is need to pursue now is grounded first on the
conceptual level; because that is the origin of all systems, even those whose
adherents think of them as purely pragmatic, (even the purest of pragmatism
requires accepting the conceptual position that conceptual positions can be
safely ignored); and because the Baha'i Writings clearly state, "the reality
of man is his thought."

The conceptual base needs to be solidly begun, but we do not have time to
finish it completely (the needs of humanity are too desperate at this hour)
before we begin the phase of implementing it within the Baha'i community,
which we know is to serve as a working model of what human communities can
achieve, but have as yet never consistently practiced:  balancing the needs
of individuals and the needs of community in such a way that both are
nurtured and neither neglected.  Power without oppression, freedom without
chaos, unity without conformity -- these are among the achievements we must
demonstrate convincingly to a skeptical world before large-scale growth of
the Baha'i community can occur.

Only after long experience of success within the Baha'i community will such a
body of political theory be in a position to affect the operation of
governments and nations.

All of this I state in response to Juan's repeated (and wise) exhortation
that we move with great caution before abandoning the actual practice of
supporting liberal rights and freedoms, even as we subject the conceptual
foundations of liberal thought to a rigorous examination.  We cannot blindly
accept any such preconceived and culturally embedded ideas as compatible with
a Baha'i system until we have tested them with the greatest rigor, but
neither can we blindly abandon them until we have determined by the same
process that they are unnecessary or harmful.

I hope the process I have sketched in broad outline above will reassure Juan,
Linda, Sen, and others that my arguments do not seek to undermine the
positive results that liberal-democratic systems (and other systems as well)
have achieved.

Regards,
Kevin





=END=


From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:18:18 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Accommodations

Derek -

I was informed my dear husband - Terry - would be allowed the childrens tree
house accommodations while we attend the Mystic Conference at Bosch!   Will
there be a reduction  in fees for Terry's accommodations?  Shall I pack a
sleeping bag for him??  Flashlight??  I am assuming that my accomodations
have not changed and of course my  registration fee will remain the same.
 Many thanks!

Sue



=END=


From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:29:25 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of Writings

Actually, Sandy, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't go on and on about
your views on this matter.  It seems to me that a discussion of this kind
would be both useful and enlightening.  But, it's your call.

   I would, however, suggest that you consider the possibility that the
Baha'i Faith MOST CERTAINLY IS Sufism--as it is Buddhism, Christianity, and
Islam.  Baha'u'llah, as Jesus, did not come to destroy, but to fulfill.   To
suggest that the Writings of Baha'u'llah can best be understood in some
ahistoric and contextless abstract way seems to me to be quite mistaken.

Tony



=END=


From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 13:19:45 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Welcome to Marie Procter

Dear Marie,

Welcome to the Talisman list, place of mysteries.

Now that dearest ladies Quanta, Joan Welch and Linda are off, the number of
women upholding honor and truth is periously low!!  Please post often and
energetically, and be sure to disagree with Burl at all times!!!

Love,
Sandy Fotos
Tokyo



=END=


From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 13:19:41 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of Writings

Dear Tony,

I promised certain listmembers privately not to go on and on about
phallocentric constructions of the Sacred Writings, so this is my last word.

Tony wrote:
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

 It is the nature of all Sufi mystic writing to
imagine that world and one's relationship to God in rather explicit sexual
terms--and this goes for men and women.
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

The Baha'i Faith is *not* Sufism.


Respectfully,
Sandy Fotos
Tokyo





=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:04:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Sense and Sensibilty": Highbrow Melodrama?
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Talisman" 

"Sense and Sensibility": Highbrow Melodrama?


"Sense and Sensibility" a smashing adaptation of Jane Austin's novel, by
the same name, purports to discuss sense (the sound evaluation of
circumstances) and sensibility ( the capacity to be emotionally
affected--irrationality).  Initially, the examination seems unfortunately
 trivialized by serendipitous events, throughout, that make the themes
appear pompous and sophomoric at best.

This general flaw is ameliorated, though, by a kind of Shakespearean
comic direction and a most amusing script that implies the film-maker
(Ang Lee), and the screenwriter (Emma Thompson) didn't take such
thematics quite seriously.  As they delicately satirize and lovingly
depict the feminine fantasy of Beautiful Heartache- realized by a process
of  love lost through an implacably evil circumstance, and love regained
through gracious providence.   It is almost like we are revisiting the
dynamics of Milton's "Paradise Lost" and "Paradise Regained" but alas,
that would be stretching it a bit.

"Sense" is personified in Emma Thompson, who plays the lesser attractive,
but still very desirable, Eleanor Dashwood while the personification of
"Sensibility" is embodied by her younger sister, the beautiful Marianne.
Their apparent melodrama is played out against the backdrop of finding
love in a world where gold must test the sincerity of every soul.  And,
the complications involved in the rules of British inheritance
continually displaces family members, who, are attached to great houses,
and who, upon the death of a particular master, are, sent packing when
the new master arrives.  Thus, an incessant tension is produced between
the need for security (Sense) and the desire for love (Sensibility).

As the narrative progresses, after making the initial thematic argument,
certain rather obvious coincidences occur in the plot that produce a
sense of Deja Vu.  These handicaps in the plot ( plot devices which I
prefer not to reveal for the sake of those who have not seen the film)
from the modern vantage point are decidedly clique, but are handled with
such grace, and good humor, as to restore them to their original vitality
and freshness.  The Master/Mistress stroke of the film is the enlivening
of the narrative with humor, by composing the scenes, in such a way, as
to heighten the comic effect of normally melodramatic situations.  This
is all topped off in the end with the traditional comic closure of a
wedding--where all hearts are healed and the wisdom of pain is made
clear.  If only an actor had spoken to directly to the audience at close
and summed up the good cheer everything would have been perfect (but that
role, dear reader, has fallen to me).  All's Well, that Ends Well.

For those ladies, who favor the form of Hugh Grant, an unpleasant
surprise is in store as his part is quite minor.  However, the character
Willoughby, should suffice to restore all lady-like ogling. And Gentlemen
should not fear attending this delightful delicacy that brings refinement
and charm to the cinema.

Richard



Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:39:37 +0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: S.N.Lambden@newcastle.ac.uk (Stephen Lambden)
Subject: Re: TABLETS OF BAHA'U'LLAH 2

>Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:38:29 +0000
>To:Alex Tavangar 
>From:nsnl@burnmoor.ncl.ac.uk (Stephen Lambden)
>Subject:Re: TABLETS OF BAHA'U'LLAH 2
>
>>Dear Steve:
>>
>>I am most appreciative of your generosity in sharing such spiritually
>>nutritious information with us.  A quick perusal of your introduction to
>>Lawh-i Kull al-t'am wetted my appetite for more.  I would also like to ask
>>for two small clarifications.
>>
>>
>>>     He then explains that for those who "dwell in the "Crimson Isle"
>>>(jazirat al-amr)
>>
>>The word al-amr is translated as Cause (Sahib al-amr = bearer of the Cause)
>>and Command (mazhar al-amr = Manifestation of the Command) in two other
>>passages in your post.  As crimson is the English word that has been used
>>for translating al-hamr'a (i.e., safinat al-hamr'a, The Crimson Ark), would
>>the correct translation for jazirat al-amr be "Isle of Command" or "Isle of
>>Decree"?
>>
>>>the "Temple of the Divine Unicity" (haykal al-ahadiyya)  whom
>>>the aggressors caused to be "imprisoned in the land"
>>>and "concealed in the cities" (allusions to Mirza Yahya?).
>>
>>Was Mirza Yahya ever imprisoned?
>>
>>
>>I would also like to invite Mr. Habib Riazati, if he is still on this list,
>>to share with us some of his insights and information about the Islamic,
>>historical, and other references in this Tablet of Baha'u'llah.
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Alex B. Tavangar
>
>Hi Alex,
>
>Thanks for your kind comment.
>
>1. VIII: 3
>>>     He then explains that for those who "dwell in the "Crimson Isle"
>>>(jazirat al-amr).
>
>Th text doEs not have *jazirat al-amr* (which would be "Isle of the Cause/
>Command") BUT  *jazirat al-hamra'* ("Crimson Isle") as translated.
>
>
>2. VIII:5 >
>
>>>the "Temple of the Divine Unicity" (haykal al-ahadiyya)  whom
>>>the aggressors caused to be "imprisoned in the land"
>>>and "concealed in the cities" (allusions to Mirza Yahya?).
>>
>>Was Mirza Yahya ever imprisoned?
>
>YAHYA WAS NOT EXACTLY "IMPRISIONED" BUT "IMPRISIONED" OR CONCEALED HIMSELF
>THROUGH THE PRACTISE OF EXCESSIVE *TAQIYYA* AS A RESULT OF THE DANGERS OF
>MUSLIM ANTI-BABI PROPOGANDA AND ACTIVITY -- ASSUMING THAT IS THIS IS ALLUSION
>TO YAHYA?
>
>SALUTATIONS
>
>STEVE
>
>PS. MAY I TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO APOLOGIZE FOR THE  FEW VERSIFICATION ERRORS
>IN THE TRANSLATION OF THE LAWH-I KULL AL-TA`AM. I WILL CORRECT THIS AND A FEW
>OTHER ERRORS IN A SINGLE POSTING SHORTLY.
>

Stephen N. Lambden
44 Queens Road, Jesmond,
Newcastle upon Tyne, NE2 2PQ
England. U.K.

Voice/Fax. +44 [0] 191. 2818597
Email S.N.Lambden@ncl.ac.uk





=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 14:34:05 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: ARTS?

From Baha'u'llah =20


>http://sunsite.unc.edu/bahai-bin/true-seeker.pl
>> Search Result on "arts"
>>=20
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> The Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 160:
>>      l. To teach one's children to chant the holy verses in the
>>      Mashriqu'l-Adhk=E1r
>>      m. To study such arts and sciences as benefit mankind
>>      n. To take counsel together
>> The Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, pp. 214-215:
>>      disputation # 77 The Bah=E1'=ED Writings enjoin the acquisition of
>>      knowledge and the study of the arts and sciences. Bah=E1'=EDs are
>> The Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 215:
>>      and are warned against the pursuit of studies that are
>>      productive only of futile wrangling. In His Tablets Bah=E1'u'll=E1h
>>      counsels the believers to study such sciences and arts as are
>>      "useful" and would further "the progress and advancement" of
>>      society, and He cautions against sciences which "begin with
>>      words and end with words", the pursuit of which leads to "idle
>>      disputation".
>> Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 19:
>>      of Divine wisdom, and Ab=FA-Dhar, the shepherd, became a prince
>>      of the nations! This Day, O Shaykh, hath never been, nor is it
>>      now, the Day whereon man-made arts and sciences can be regarded
>>      as a true standard for men, since it hath been recognized that
>>      He Who was wholly unversed in any of them hath ascended the
>>      throne of
>> Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 19:
>>      in any of them hath ascended the throne of purest gold, and
>>      occupied the seat of honor in the council of knowledge, whilst
>>      the acknowledged exponent and repository of these arts and
>>      sciences remained utterly deprived. By "arts and sciences" is
>>      meant those which begin with words and end with words. Such
>>      arts and sciences, however, as are
>> Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 19:
>>      purest gold, and occupied the seat of honor in the council of
>>      knowledge, whilst the acknowledged exponent and repository of
>>      these arts and sciences remained utterly deprived. By "arts and
>>      sciences" is meant those which begin with words and end with
>>      words. Such arts and sciences, however, as are productive of
>>      good results, and bring forth their
>> Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 19:
>>      and repository of these arts and sciences remained utterly
>>      deprived. By "arts and sciences" is meant those which begin
>>      with words and end with words. Such arts and sciences, however,
>>      as are productive of good results, and bring forth their fruit,
>>      and are conducive to the well-being and tranquility of men have
>>      been, and will remain, acceptable
>> Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 26:
>>      over all things." In the third Tajall=ED (effulgence) of the Book
>>      of Tajall=EDy=E1t (Book of Effulgences) We have mentioned: "Arts ,
>>      crafts and sciences uplift the world of being, and are
>>      conducive to its exaltation. Knowledge is as wings to man's
>>      life, and a ladder for his ascent. Its acquisition is incumbent
>>      upon everyone. The
>> Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 32:
>>      Will of God assist Us, there would flow out from the Pen of the
>>      Divine Expounder a lengthy exposition of that which hath been
>>      mentioned, and there would be revealed, in the field of arts
>>      and sciences, what would renew the world and the nations. A
>>      word hath, likewise, been written down and recorded by the Pen
>>      of the Most High in the Crimson Book which is
>> Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, by Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, pp. 97-98:
>>      man that hath recognized the fragrance of the All-Merciful and
>>      been numbered with the steadfast. Your sciences shall not
>>      profit you in this day, nor your arts , nor your treasures, nor
>>      your glory. Cast them
>>      all behind your backs, and set your faces towards the
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, pp. 25-26:
>>      The eleventh Glad-Tidings
>>      It is permissible to study sciences and arts , but such
>>      sciences as are useful and would redound to the progress and
>>      advancement of the people. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who
>>      is the Ordainer, the All-Wise.
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, pp. 38-39:
>>      deference, and, unlike the people aforetime, should not defile
>>      their tongues with abuse. In this Day the sun of craftsmanship
>>      shineth above the horizon of the occident and the river of arts
>>      is flowing out
>>      of the sea of that region. One must speak with fairness and
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 39:
>>      The sixth Tar=E1z
>>      Knowledge is one of the wondrous gifts of God. It is incumbent
>>      upon everyone to acquire it. Such arts and material means as
>>      are now manifest have been achieved by virtue of His knowledge
>>      and wisdom which have been revealed in Epistles and Tablets
>>      through His Most Exalted
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 39:
>>      virtue of His knowledge and wisdom which have been revealed in
>>      Epistles and Tablets through His Most Exalted Pen--a Pen out of
>>      whose treasury pearls of wisdom and utterance and the arts and
>>      crafts of the world are brought to light. In this Day the
>>      secrets of the earth are laid bare before the eyes of men. The
>>      pages of swiftly-appearing newspapers are
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 51:
>>=20
>>      The third Tajall=ED
>>      is concerning arts , crafts and sciences. Knowledge is as wings
>>      to man's life, and a ladder for his ascent. Its acquisition is
>>      incumbent upon everyone. The knowledge of such
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 72:
>>      Unto this bear witness My heart, My Pen, My inner and My outer
>>      Being. God grant that all men may turn unto the treasuries
>>      latent within their own beings. O people of Bah=E1! The source of
>>      crafts, sciences and arts is the power of reflection. Make ye
>>      every effort that out of this ideal mine there may gleam forth
>>      such pearls of wisdom and utterance as will promote the
>>      well-being and
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 85:
>>      O thou who hast quaffed from the wine of Mine utterance and
>>      hast fixed thy gaze upon the horizon of My Revelation! How
>>      strange that the people of Persia, who were unrivalled in
>>      sciences and arts , should have sunk to the lowest level of
>>      degradation among the kindreds of the earth. O people! In this
>>      blessed, this glorious Day, deprive not yourselves of the
>>      liberal effusions of bounty which the
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 91:
>>      it hath imparted true enlightenment. Yet most of the people in
>>      Persia continue to be deprived of the benefits of profitable
>>      counsels and remain sorely lacking in useful sciences and arts
>>      . Formerly these sublime words were especially revealed by the
>>      Pen of Glory in honour of one of the faithful, that perchance
>>      those that have gone astray may embrace the Truth and become
>>      acquainted with the
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 96:
>>      Unveiled and unconcealed, this Wronged One hath, at all times,
>>      proclaimed before the face of all the peoples of the world that
>>      which will serve as the key for unlocking the doors of
>>      sciences, of arts , of knowledge, of well-being, of prosperity
>>      and wealth. Neither have the wrongs inflicted by the oppressors
>>      succeeded in silencing the shrill voice of the Most Exalted
>>      Pen, nor have the doubts of the
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 144:
>>      believed in God and in His invincible sovereignty. Unto this
>>      beareth witness thy Lord, the Help in Peril, the
>>      Self-Subsisting. When the eyes of the people of the East were
>>      captivated by the arts and wonders of the West, they roved
>>      distraught in the wilderness of material causes, oblivious of
>>      the One Who is the Causer of Causes, and the Sustainer thereof,
>>      while such men as were the source and the wellspring of
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 144:
>>      that He is in truth the Maker, the Omnipotent, the Creator, the
>>      Originator, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. Although it is
>>      recognized that the contemporary men of learning are highly
>>      qualified in philosophy, arts and crafts, yet were anyone to
>>      observe with a discriminating eye he would readily comprehend
>>      that most of this knowledge hath been acquired from the sages
>>      of the past, for it is they
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 147:
>>      beareth witness unto this, yet the people understand not. This
>>      man hath said: `I am B=E1linus, the wise one, the performer of
>>      wonders, the producer of talismans.' He surpassed everyone else
>>      in the diffusion of arts and sciences and soared unto the
>>      loftiest heights of humility and supplication. Give ear unto
>>      that which he hath said, entreating the
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 168:
>>      as consultation is the lamp of guidance which leadeth the way,
>>      and is the bestower of understanding. At the outset of every
>>      endeavour, it is incumbent to look to the end of it. Of all the
>>      arts and sciences, set the children to studying those which
>>      will result in advantage to man, will ensure his progress and
>>      elevate his rank. Thus the noisome odours of lawlessness will
>>      be dispelled, and thus
>> Tablets of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h revealed after the Kit=E1b-i-Aqdas, p. 211:
>>      creation. Blessed is that man that hath recognized the
>>      fragrance of the All-Merciful and been numbered with the
>>      steadfast. Your sciences shall not profit you in this day, nor
>>      your arts , nor your treasures, nor your glory. Cast them all
>>      behind your backs, and set your faces towards the Most Sublime
>>      Word through which the Scriptures and the Books and this lucid
>>      Tablet have been distinctly set forth.
>> Gleanings from the Writings of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, pp. 85-86:
>>      the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom
>>      which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which
>>      any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have
>>      produced, the influence
>>      exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but
>> Gleanings from the Writings of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, pp. 141-142:
>>=20
>>      released as can generate, through successive ages, all the
>>      manifold arts which the hands of man can produce. This, verily,
>>      is a certain truth. No sooner is this resplendent word uttered,
>>      than its animating energies, stirring within all created
>>      things, give birth to
>> Gleanings from the Writings of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 142:
>>      This, verily, is a certain truth. No sooner is this resplendent
>>      word uttered, than its animating energies, stirring within all
>>      created things, give birth to the means and instruments whereby
>>      such arts can be produced and perfected. All the wondrous
>>      achievements ye now witness are the direct consequences of the
>>      Revelation of this Name. In the days to come, ye
>> Gleanings from the Writings of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 157:
>>      world and the advancement of its peoples. They are like unto
>>      leaven which leaveneth the world of being, and constitute the
>>      animating force through which the arts and wonders of the world
>>      are made manifest. Through them the clouds rain their bounty
>>      upon men, and the earth bringeth forth its fruits. All things
>>      must needs have a cause, a motive power, an
>> Gleanings from the Writings of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 161:
>>      through him. Such a soul provideth, at the bidding of the Ideal
>>      King and Divine Educator, the pure leaven that leaveneth the
>>      world of being, and furnisheth the power through which the arts
>>      and wonders of the world are made manifest. Consider how meal
>>      needeth leaven to be leavened with. Those souls that are the
>>      symbols of detachment are the leaven of the world.
>> Gleanings from the Writings of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, p. 342:
>>      transgress the limits of moderation. He discerneth the truth in
>>      all things, through the guidance of Him Who is the All-Seeing.
>>      The civilization, so often vaunted by the learned exponents of
>>      arts and sciences, will, if allowed to overleap the bounds of
>>      moderation, bring great evil upon men. Thus warneth
>>=20
>> This was generated by the Perl script true-seeker.pl 1.27.
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Mark Towfiq (comments: towfiq@SunSITE.UNC.Edu) | [Image] Back up to
>> SunSITE
>
>
>




=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 23:39:04 +0100 (MET)
Subject: maturity & modernity
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Dear Cheshmak,

The Aqdas notes are confusing on this point. According to the notes,
the signs are (1) the emergence of a science of "divine philosophy"
which will include the transmutation of elements and (2) the selection
of a single language and common script. The Aqdas text itself does not
say that the common language is one of the signs (though the 'common
language' and the 'two signs' passages are placed alongside each other
in para 89), but the notes contain an interpretation by Shoghi Effendi
to this effect. He also classified this in his codification of the
Aqdas as follows:
      9.  The selection of a single language and the
          adoption of a common script for all on earth
          to use:  one of two signs of the maturity of the
          human race
It is interesting that, at the end of this verse, (K189) the word
translated as 'Book' is actually lawh, tablet, and the word translated as
wonderful, badi`, can also be 'unprecedented', while its root bada`a means
to introduce, originate, do for the first time etc, so Elder and Miller's
translation of 'this innovating tablet' seems quite likely. So instead of
'this wondrous Book', referring to the Aqdas as a whole, we would have 'this
innovating tablet' referring to the section beginning with the address to
the 'members of parliament' and containing this highly innovative teaching.
    This, and the fact that this is clearly a distinct unit without a link
to the verses before or after, might indicate that it had a separate
written existence as a tablet about a common language before being compiled
in the Aqdas (comments from the more learned please).

However the notes also refer to the following statement of Baha'u'llah:
     One of the signs of the maturity of the world is that no one will
     accept to bear the weight of kingship. Kingship will remain with
     none willing to bear alone its weight. That day will be the day
     whereon wisdom will be manifested among mankind.
which makes three signs. And the notes refer to Shoghi Effendi
associating the coming of age of the human with the unification of
mankind, the establishment of a world commonwealth, and an
unprecedented stimulus to "the intellectual, the moral and spiritual life
of the entire human race" (Aqdas:  Notes, pages 250-251) which makes half
a dozen signs. The latter group could be put under a different heading,
as referring in part to the maturity of global administrative institutions.

Unfortunately no reference is given to the 'divine philosophy' tablet
referred to in the notes, or to the 'no one will accept to bear the weight
of kingship' tablet, and I have not been able to find either. Since these
two identifications are made by the research department, either might
be mistaken. Of the two, I would suspect the 'divine philosophy' one,
first because there is no text given, and second because transmutation
and alchemical analogies are often used as metaphors in Baha'u'llah's
writings, and confusion could arise from an excessively literal reading.
So if the inconsistency bothers you, you might examine this one in
more depth. That the common language is one of the signs is based on
an interpretation of Shoghi Effendi, so that I think is fixed.
   It could of course be that one or other of the tablets referred to
in the notes was written after the Aqdas - ie, first there were two signs,
and then Baha'u'llah added a third after having completed the Aqdas.
Why not?

`Abdu'l-Baha links maturity of the aggregate world of humanity the
revision of the laws of former governments and civilizations, the
development of scientific ideas and theories, invention and
discovery, greater scope of industry, and the general abandonment
of past standards, as well as with the reformation of religion, passing
of ancestral beliefs and bigotry, hostility and hatred between nations
and peoples of religion and:
       it is, likewise, evident that the Lord of mankind has bestowed
       infinite bounties upon the world in this century of maturity and
       consummation. ...  This reformation and renewal of the
       fundamental reality of religion constitute the true and
       outworking spirit of modernism, the unmistakable light of the
       world, the manifest effulgence of the Word of God, the divine
       remedy for all human ailment and the bounty of eternal life to
       all mankind. (Promulgation of Universal Peace, pages 438-439)

In short, 'the outworking spirit of modernism' in various manifestations
needs to be added to the list. Which I confess I find more congenial
than a revival of alchemy. Gold is such dull stuff. Now, if I can just learn
the trick of not turning my head for 'the most comely of maidens', I
will be ready to start on the spiritual path :-)

Sen

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn                           ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47                   email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
                                 ***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
                 and the individuality of each,
         thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------




=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 23:54:06 +0100 (MET)
Subject: from Sonja respnose to R.Logan re: film
To: talisman@indiana.edu

FROM SONJA (not Sen)

Greetings Richard,

Could you please post me Mark Bramford's posting objecting to yours.
I never found it (I suspect Sen threw it away).
My background is art and art video, and I read art theory (in general)-
not film, so I found your comments interesting.
Re: your review of Casino, I can make no comment having not seen the
film. But there's nothing in your review that I found upsetting -though I
do have a question re: separating art from the observer (ala
Sontag?Goodard?), can you elaborate please?

The reason I am asking is because this area of art and moral
responsibility/arts relationship to society, etc, is a tricky area, especially
with Bahais who often, in my experience, just assume that art serves
the BF, full stop.
I think it is clear that when artists do this, there is something lost,
magic in particular, but I am also not in favour of the dictum "for arts
sake" as an apriori. As humans we are never purely one or the other, so
I don't think art/culture can be either.
Let me explain with discussing a film that I have seen, The Player by
Robert Altman, where in some ways you could argue that the magic in
the film is that the 'seemingly impossible happens' and so the audience
is taken by surprise. But what makes the film great in my eyes, is that
the real story about asking questions about what is real, and what is a
fairytale (the things that often breed cultural values)- or even whether
everything is constructed as Rorty argues (I'm reading him at the mo.)
and the place of art in this storytelling, though if you only read the
movie superficially, it's a story that says killing and lying can pay off.
In a sense there is distance in this movie-the distance between the
literal (the narrative), and the metaphor (issues of morality/conditioning)
but what makes it gripping is that as you consider the pros and cons of
why this symbol/reference or that, you are not aware of any distance.
So please explain/illustrate what you mean by distance between the art
and the observer, and what part this plays.


Sonja van Kerkhoff

PS if all goes well, you lucky attendees of the Mysticism conf. will get
the treat of seeing some of my weird videos, just before your dawn
ablutions :)

PPS: The March issue of Arts Dialogue will carry an (exclusive)
interview with the main actor in the Cuban produced film, Strawberry
and Chocolate. Only $20 for 4 issues, email me for more details.




=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 96 22:45:15 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein" 
To: SFotos@eworld.com
Cc: "Talisman list - MSNINET" 
Subject: RE: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of Writings

Emphatically true! And Sufism is not strictly Islam either. It is a relatively
small group of people. It's also a very personal interpretation by what I
would characterize as the ancient equivalent of 60's-style hippies. Many Sufis
smoke marijuana in concentrated form, drink wine, and practice other
non-Islamic customs. Although some of them were truly inspired and even earned
the admiration of the Manifestation for their piety and their spiritual
poetry, they are not upholding a lifestyle that we might wish to emulate. I
view their form of mysticism for the most part as sensual and highly physical
and am not comfortable with it.

Hannah

The Artist Formerly Known As Cary  :-)


----------
From: 	owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of SFotos@eworld.com
Sent: 	Sunday, 04 February, 1996 13:19 PM
To: 	talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 	Re: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of Writings

Dear Tony,

I promised certain listmembers privately not to go on and on about
phallocentric constructions of the Sacred Writings, so this is my last word.

Tony wrote:
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

 It is the nature of all Sufi mystic writing to
imagine that world and one's relationship to God in rather explicit sexual
terms--and this goes for men and women.
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

The Baha'i Faith is *not* Sufism.


Respectfully,
Sandy Fotos
Tokyo






=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:06:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: "Hannah E. Reinstein" 
Cc: SFotos@eworld.com, Talisman list - MSNINET 
Subject: RE: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of Writings



I think Tony's reference to Sufism and erotic imagery was misunderstood.

First of all, I suspect a majority of urban, literate Muslims were in
fact Sufis in the period 1400-1850.  Sufi orders functioned like a
combination of church social and community service organization.  Sufism
is now a minority affair except in West Africa and Pakistan and some
other areas.  It has greatly declined in the Arab world and Turkey.  But
in Baha'u'llah's time it was very prevalent.

Second, Baha'u'llah's mystical poetry and many of his mystical writings
of the Baghdad period are very much rooted in the conventions of Sufi
poetry, much of which employed amorous tropes to express the seeker's
love of God.  Ibn al-Farid's Poem of the Way was a particular favorite of
both Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha.  One of the consequences of a male
author employing these tropes was a feminization of God, as Terry has
tirelessly pointed out.

*Some* of Baha'u'llah's writings in this vein are definitely erotic,
including most especially the Tablet of the Houri;  but they are not much
more erotic than the Song of Songs.  The puritanical or ultramontane
amongst us will simply have to get used to them.  As Nima pointed out,
not all cultures have been as neurotic about human sexuality as the
Western European.  The Tantric tradition of South Asia recognized
sexuality as part of human experience and therefore as one path to
transcendence.  And Hasidim masters urged their disciples to thing of God
at the point of climax, as if that emotional peak might rend a hole in
the fabric of ordinary reality and allow a brief glimpse of Transcendence.

As for it being blasphemous to suggest that some of Baha'u'llah's images
of the Bab as the bride to be unveiled can be discussed in a paper on
erotic imagery, I don't find this a useful way to think.  The argument is
either justifiable with regard to a) the documentation on which it is
based and b) the reasoning employed, or it is not.  If it is not, then
the argument is wrong.  If it is, the argument is right.  Either way, it
is irrelevant to intellectual inquiry whether some might think it
"blasphemous."  Many Christians and Muslims think Baha'u'llah's claims
are blasphemous.  Baha'is, who are still being persecuted in Iran for
"blaspheming" should be the last to invoke this odious word.



cheers    Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan



=END=


Date: Sat, 3 Feb 96 03:11 EST
From: Dariush Lamie <0007368608@mcimail.com>
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" 
Subject: Re. Tablet to physician

-- [ From: Dariush Lamie * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] --


Dear Quanta,

A brief note on the tablet  physician (Tablet of medicine):

This tablet of Baha'u'llah was revealed in Aka and was addressed to one of the
believers named
Mirza Mohamad Riza-i Tabib of the city of Yazd. I personally would be
interested to know more about the life of this believer, our dear scholars like
Ahang may be able to help.

Basically, if we can divide the Writings of Baha'u'llah into six different
categories as far as the language is concern, this tablet would be "A combined
language" (Lahn-i Mozdavag). The others would be:

1) Pure arabic    (Lahn-i Hejazi),  such as the arabic tablet of Ahmad
and......
2) Pure persian  (Lahn-i Parsi-i Sareh),  such as the tablets to Zoroastrians
3) Persian which has lots of arabic names, adjectives and verbs  (Lahn-i Araghi)
4) Part persian and part arabic "a combined language"  (Lahn-i Mozdavag) , such
as the tablet to physician.
5) Word by word translation  (Lahn-i tarjumeh) such as the tablet of "Kalamat-i
Aliat", Baha'u'llah Himself has translated from arabic to persian in one
tablet.
6) Poetry   (Lahn-i She'r) such as any of the poetry of Baha'u'llah.

The tablet that you are interested "Tablet to physician" or maybe better we
call it "Tablet of medicine" falls within the fourth category. the total is
about five pages three of them in arabic and two pages in persian.

I have not read this tablet for a while but as far as I remember it contains
the following:

1) High station of medicine and MDs. in the Faith.

2) A general spiritual guidance to MDs.

3) Advice to humanity to go to MDs in the case of sickness. (as you know there
are certain groups which prohibit doing so).

4) Advice to MDs to cure first by food rather than medicine.

5) Advice to public what not to eat, like two opposite nature food (Zedan)! or
eat little in the morning, walk after you eat....

** also, we should take it easy. So, since I had a long day today and now is
mid-night, I should leave it here hopefully others would add to it and correct
me as well.

lovingly,
dariush



=END=


Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:50:30 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry W. Miller)
Subject: Building of Mashriqu l Adhkar
Cc: jatek@aol.com

Dear Terry, Talismanians,
    I am not subsribed to Talisman at the moment, but I have a request.
Terry, I recall your many interesting postings about the role of the
Institution of the Mashriqu l Adhar.  There was then some information about
a Baha'i who had designed a relatively economical, small version of the
core temple.  I would like to contact that person, in order to gather
information for an upcoming meeting in my area dealing with discussion of
Baha'i Centres, purchasing of land, etc.  The Spiritual Assembly of the
Baha'is of Orinda, California, is undertaking some research on this matter.
Is it possible to get some sample drawings, or written information about
the designs, costs, limitations, etc.?
    I hope to be attending at least part of the Mysticism Conference at
Bosch as a day student, so would be able to receive any materials there if
someone has them.  Otherwise, email is fine, or:   Spiritual Assembly of
the Baha'is of Martinez, P.O.Box 2093, Martinez, CA, 94553.
   Thanks,
Baha'i love,  Henry

Henry W. Miller
hwmiller@ccnet.com






=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 96 0:19:58 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu, dave10018@aol.com
Cc: friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp
Subject: Is Japanese society repressive?

Dear Dave:

In your letter of Jan. 23, you raised several issues which concerned Japan.
I want to reply to the points you raise, but before I do, let me briefly
repeat some of your arguments [in parentheses].

[To understand sexuality in Japan, you argued, it is necessary to consider
the relationship of sexuality to the development of modern feminism.
Japanese society, you argued, is repressive like Victorian England or 19th
century France in its attitudes: Japanese society is oriented toward "male
pleasure and prerogative."]

The analogy is mistaken, I believe, and doesn't lead to an understanding of
Japanese society.   Morality in Japan is mainly Confucian with a mix of
Shinto purification rites and Buddhist otherworldlyness.  The emphasis is on
correctness in relationships - family, company, community - with built in
safety valves.  Let me illustrate a typical safety valve: the drunken company
picnic under the blooming cherry trees.  Having consumed sufficient
quantities of beer, whiskey, or sake, the younger worker insults the boss and
his-coworkers to their face, saying what he really feels.  The next day, it
is not mentioned, rather it is completely forgotten, in fact it *must* be
forgotten.  Such things are allowed when drunk.

Popular culture for 400 years has had a similar safety valve: the ukiyo, or
"floating world."  The word and its associations come from Buddhism: this
world is like an illusion, a mirage, it is unreal.  So, take pleasure in its
illusions, enjoy it when you can, throw discipline and its accompanying
illusions to the side, at least for the night!  This culture was the culture
of the pleasure quarters, the special walled-in part of the cities where
prostitution was allowed to flourish, where kabuki plays, ukiyoe Japanese
prints developed, and where art, entertainment, prostitution, and the
culinary arts produced the geisha house.  In time, this popular culture
broadened its appeal and almost became the culture!

So, there always has been a certain permissiveness toward sexuality.
Granted, men, of course, were allowed much more freedom than women.  But it
was the courtesan who was celebrated.  Her freedom and boldness and beauty
still thrills when we see the old popular prints, now highly priced
collectors' items.  This was not the everyday housewife's world, but it does
not speak of a repressive society. [If you haven't yet, read the 11th century
story Genji Monogatori, the world's first novel and still one of the
greatest.  Written by a leisured noblewoman, it tells of a strangely amoral
society, typified by pursuit of pleasure, and tempered by a Buddhist
awareness of the vanity of it all!]

Until recently, most Japanese were farmers, so farmers' attitudes toward
these issues are very important for what you are considering.  Japanese
farming is different that European or American farming: plots are small,
often flooded paddies, cultivation extensively by human hands, and organized
around the family, with all helping.  Men and women were often equals in this
world, or in the modern world of small shops and businesses.  It is here that
you see why some thinkers still see Japan as a matriarchical society.

[As Japan becomes more open, perhaps through the influence of western
feminism, attitudes toward women's sexuality will change.  Correspondingly,
attitudes toward homosexuality will change as "men are forced to imagine as a
human possibility a sustained sexual attraction for men."  In a similar
manner, you argue, "homophobia--fear of homosexuality, especially male
homosexuality--rises as women assert themselves."  Labeling of homosexuals as
"deviant" allows dominant heterosexual males to deny homosexual potential  in
themselves.]

What has happened is quite different.  Women lately (i.e., the last ten
years), like men, seem to see their youth as a time for sexual freedom before
marrying after, say, 27 years old or so.  The newspapers report that this
attitude has extended to the point that high school girls from ordinary
families see nothing wrong in funding their clothes purchases by a trick or
two.  Missionaries chalk it up to the lack of a major religion, or at least a
new one.  Buddhism was already over one thousand years old when it reached
Japan, they point out.

Will feminism change things? What does this mean with relationship to
homosexuality?  These are not easy questions to answer:  I don't have the
feeling that women are suppressed in Japan as they often are or have been
elsewhere.  Taken advantage of economically? Yes.  Not given an equal role in
public affairs in society? Yes.  Downtrodden and suppressed?  No.  As a
result, Japanese women seem to lack the anger that fuels feminism elsewhere.

Will Japanese men be threatened by womanly sexuality?  In the main, no.  It
doesn't seem to have bothered them for the last two thousand years. Why
should it now?

Will men give up their mistresses?  I think so. Women don't like men who
cheat on them and don't help take care of the family, and these days, they
get to choose whom they marry.

Will homosexuality be a big thing in the future?  Well, its becoming popular
on Japanese TV talks shows as a way to be a personality!  Certainly, there is
a gay subculture.  But, my guess is that the traditional attitudes will
continue: there will be certain occupations, groups, etc., where it is
acceptable and even fashionable, but these will be a "special quarters," a
"floating world" off by itself, a safety valve, and Japan's family and
work-centered mainstream culture will continue as it long has.

Yours sincerely,
Stephen Friberg



=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@RL.RULIMBURG.NL
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 11:48:54 +0100 (MET)
Subject: fear & anxiety (repost?)
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Forgive me if this is a duplicate. For some reason my postings to talisman
are not always coming through. Perhaps the listowner has rationed me :-D

---------------------------------------------------------
re: fear pertaineth to women, taqiyyih, Persian parsing,
  eros and mystic longing, female stereotypes overturned,
  and natural law and rights (did I miss anyone out??)

Dear Quanta,
The phrase you refer to might well come from the Lawh-i Tibb,
which has been translated by Fananapazir & Lambden in BSB
6:4, October 1992. The text is in Majmu`a-yi Alwah-i Mubaraka,
Wilmette 1981, pp 222-226.

Section IX of that tablet switches to Persian, and is addressed to
the Friends (rather than to the physician), calling them to wisdom
(Baha'i version of taqiyyih I think) and steadfastness, as the
means of ensuring the survival and continuity of the community.
Then section X begins: Say: O Friends! Apprehensiveness and
agitation pertaineth unto women. And should the beloved of God
reflect briefly upon the world and its manifest vicissitudes, the
dominance of those who hath been tyrants will not frighten
them." Is this the passage you are looking for?

The commentary says:
At the beginning of this paragraph Baha'u'llah may be addressing
the Baha'i friends (duustaan) of Yazd. He acknowledges that
'apprehensiveness (or 'fear', khawf) and agitation (or perturbation,
upset, nervousness etc., idtiraab = verbal noun of VIII) pertaineth
unto women (or females, Ar. niswaan). It is possible that this
pertains to Yazdi Baha'i women at some stage during the early
1870s, when the Lawh-i Tibb was written. Perhaps, in other
words, there is reference to the situation within the much
persecuted Baha'i community of Yazd; a centre of Muslim anti-
Baha'i persecutions and sporadic Baha'i martyrdoms (1891 CE).

I don't know if I accept this reading - it seems rather apologetic.
On the face of it Baha'u'llah is simply telling the friends not to
be afraid, using the gender stereotype 'don't act like women'. But
the learned will comment on that for us. In fact, would one of
our Persian experts be able to transliterate the line and parse the
sentence? Please? Page 226, top line.

appropos of stereotypes, and the relationship between eros and
mystic longing, I once posted a translation by Denis MacEoin, from
Rituals in Babism and Baha'ism, Appendix 1, p. 93: Instructions
by the Bab for the Spiritual Seeker. It contained this passage:

       And when three hours of the night have passed, go for your
       meal and eat 14 portions in tranquillity and dignity, lest you
       fail to take pleasure in its benefits. When you have finished
       eating, lie down for an hour after performing your ablutions (?
       sA`atan bi'l-wud.U'); make use of perfume and rest in the
       manner God has prescribed for you. Do not rest alone, for God
       does not desire such a state for you. If you should lie alone, in
       spite of being able to do otherwise, you will have disbelieved
       in your Lord and your sin will be unequalled.  Observe God's
       decree concerning women, for they are leaves of the Tree of
       Sinai. Do not harm them for so much as the blink of an eye,
       for, according to the decree of the Book,
       they are not, in the eyes of God, as men think them to be.
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       God is sufficient for you, inwardly and outwardly, as a witness.
       Rest for one hour on your couch, for this is an established right
       for everyone.

I am a little uneasy about Terry's ecstatic/erotic visions, in that he
seems to be talking about transcending-sublimating-incorporating
sexuality into the mystic relationship, and I wonder what is left for
more earthly loves? The Bab here seems to be incorporating human
sexuality, expressed with a human partner, into a rhythm of life which
leads to wholeness and spiritual enlightenment, and that appeals to me
rather more.

BTW - I think I've found another 'established right' (= natural right?)
here. While Jim is thinking about question #1 (which is about how we
know what justice is, not how we achieve it), I've thought of more
rights that aren't linked to duties - like the right of children to nurture
and protection. The link between rights and duties looks less clear-cut
the more I think about it.

Sen




=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:34:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram 
To: "Arsalan J. Sadighi" 
Cc: talisman 
Subject: Re: Remey

Arsalan asked for some quotations a few days ago:

The following is from a tablet of Abdu'l-Baha translated by Ali Kuli Khan
October 24, 1904.  The translation seems to have been widely circulated
in the US.  A note on one copy suggests it may be in the 3 volume
Tablets, but I do not have access to a copy to check.  A note on another
copy says that the original was to a 'Persian believer.'  As is frequent
with AKK translations, he offers alternate word choices in parentheses.
In case anyone wants to try to locate the original in the published
collections, I am including the opening of the tablet as well as the
specific section on avoidance:

O Thou who are firm in the Covenant!  Faith and assurance are like unto a
garden tree.  Deeds and works praised in the Books,[sic] are similar to
fruit.  A lamp must needs give a shining light and stars must shed a
gleaming radiance.  I beg of God to assist the friends of God to show
forth that which befitteth and is worthy the elect, and that He may cause
those spiritual flowers to exhale the fragrance of Holiness.

....Avoidence[sic] is if two kinds; one is in view of guarding
the cause of God, and this must be conducted with joy and fragrance, and
not with hostility and violence.  The other kind is avoidence[sic] with
hostility (or asperity). This kind is not acceptable (or approvable).

...[The rest is on teaching and meetings.]


This is the quote I had in mind.  I was not able to locate the specific
Guardian's letter I had in mind with the resources I have at home.  It
may not have been published as I could not locate it through the indexes
I have, but then I don't have all the indexes.  I have read all the
Guardian's correspondence with the US NSA and much of it with American
individuals from the original letters rather than the published versions
so I am not always sure if something has been published or not.  Anyway,
I think the point is only common sense.  If we claim (correctly) that CBs
act unjustly and peddle untruths it is surely vital that we be seen to be
just and truthful in what we say of them.

A letter written on behalf of
the Guardian to Walter Olesak in 1944 states: ' Baha'u'llah and the
Master in many places and very emphatically have told us to shun entirely
all Covenant breakers as they are afflicted with what we might try and
define as a contagious spiritual disease; they have also told us,
however, to pray for them.' (Directives p.16; Baha'i News 179, January
1948, p.1)

Surely, it is not possible to sincerely pray for the recovery of someone
from a spiritual illness if one has an attitude of injustice and hate
toward that person.  To pray for someone's recovery seems to require an
attitude of love.  Can love be unjust?

I think we also have to be very careful about the kind of anecdotes which
have been posted about Remey to illustrate his 'arrogance.'  Not only is
it problematic to suggest that there are character flaws the existence of
which may be predictive of a tendency to become a CB, but it is
problematic to assign such very specific readings to these incidents
after the event.  For instance, if one of the others involved in these
anecdotes had been declared a CB, these incidents would probably be used
as illustrative of their jealousy of Remey's position as President of the
International Council and their inability to accept a precedence
conferred by the Guardian.  If no-one involved had been declared a CB,
the same anecdotes would probably be used to illustrate the existence of
a 'joking relationship' (as anthroplogists term it) among the Hands.

Of those who have been declared CBs there have been some who have been
quite sleazy characters otherwise, some who have been sincerely in error,
and some who have probably not been responsible for their actions.  All
three types of cases can be understood within a 'spiritual illness'
paradigm.  I think it may have been overlooked, to continue the disease
metaphor, that Covenant breaking may also carry a risk of a lesser
associated secondary infection in the Baha'i community itself.  Firmness
in the Covenant would seem to necessitate feedom from all aspects of the
disease.  I do not think that there are any circumstances in which
injustice can be construed as healthy from a Baha'i point of view.

Jackson



=END=


From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:52:04 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia

You know, guys, there is not a shred of sociological evidence to suggest that
the welfare system has had any effect whatsoever on the African American
family structure or on the family structure of any other group.  What you
hear in the media is nothing more that foul political cant, which just uses
black people as a foil for transparent conservative goals.  Can't we be a
little more sophisticated than that?

Tony



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 10:21:46 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg" 
To: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: rights (?repost)

Dear Sen:

In the context of the discussion of natural law, you raise the
question as to whether or not sexuality implies responsibility:

> "A full and rewarding sex life is the natural right of every
> individual and it is precisely for this reason that the
> institution of marriage was created"
>                              -- Shoghi Effendi.
>
> Question: does this natural right also create a duty?

The answer that has come to most people throughout the ages, and
that is biologically correct, is:  Emphatically yes!  It does create
a duty, or rather duties.

The duties it creates are several: First and foremost it implies the
raising and educating of the children resulting from sexual activities.
For example, sexuality, family, and the Baha'i concept of carrying
forward an ever-advancing civilization are closely connected.
Baha'u'llah explicitly outlines the responsiblities, say, of fathers
for the education of their children.

Even when procreation is not the end result, there has always been
thought that there is a duty, even if it is to merely prevent the
transmission of disease (according to medical experts, sexual
transmission is one of the primary means for transmission of
diseases).  Traditionally, it has been thought that the male,
even if not constrained by marriage, has the responsibility of
caring for the subjects of his affections.  This can be seen
clearly in the Lady Murasaki's ageless masterpiece about an 11th
century Kyoto prince (Genji) in Genji Monogatori.  Having "sown
his oats" rather indiscriminantly in his youth, he provides for his
consorts conscientiously and caringly as he grows old.

Studies of sexual behaviour in animals show that it is strongly
related to the dynamics of group behaviour, and of course, the
maintainance of optimal conditions for the group's survival.

Taken together, these do not imply that the possibility of sexual
pleasure is a "free-be" without corresponding responsibilities.
Anybody aware of the gay communities' recent travails knows the
response to be an increasing awareness of responsibilities that
sexual activities entail.

Yours respectfully,
Stephen R. Friberg



=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:17:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: from Sonja respnose to R.Logan re: film
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: , "Talisman" 

Dear Sonja,

It would probably be best to write to Mark for his post because I
recently trashed all posts.  They were 72 megabytes on my hard drive and
taking up too much space. In a nutshell, he basically thought "Casino"
was a bad effort, and the acting was not good.  In my reply I was trying
to show the way one approaches film as an art form as opposed to
entertainment.  I believe people confuse the two.  It would be the same
with popular reading and literature, although, I'm not hard and fast
about these things.

As far as creating distance between the work of art and the viewer or
observer--this is naturally achieved in painting or it is certainly
desirable in modern painting.  The new wave film-makers including Godard
and others wanted to break-down the method in cinema of absorbing the
viewer into the action and taking away their critical faculties.  For
example, a film normally seeks to push emotional buttons and manipulate
the viewer.  This is traditional film.  Godard wanted to do away with
that and create a cinema that made the viewer "more aware"--a kind of
existentialist foray into film-making.  A fine example of an American
film-maker influenced by this theory was F.F. Copolla in "The
Conversation" (1974).  The methodology of the film is distancing as
opposed to drawing in the viewer. The film makes the viewer more of an
"Observer" reflecting on what they see than a person whose emotions are
engaged in the traditional lets lay back and enjoy the ride kind of film.
 Essentially, this theory boils down to a critical approach to art as
opposed to an affective approach.

As to your opinions on art I couldn't agree more.  Art has a life of its
own--and it cannot be considered immoral, only its context could be
immoral,  For example, the portrayal of immorality.  Artists in our
society depict the elements of their consciousness which is our culture.
As our culture is immoral,  so some art seems as it is immoral--when it
is we, who are immoral.  "A real work of art is like a mirror that the
observer can view their own soul within."  They can gage their state of
being or consciousness with in that mirror--thus it is said,  "Art is a
revelation of being".

Richard

Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


From: "QUANTA  DAWNLIGHT" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date:          Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:47:28 EST
Subject:       gifted moments

Just came in from outside. My eyes soaked up the smiling face of
grandpa moon who was playig peek-a-boo with me behind the ice-crystal
laden branches of the trees. My ears absorbed the rhythmic sounds of
my feet on the powdery snow, crunch and creak. I rolled down on the
snow like a toddler, stumping, kicking, laughing whirling gazing
upward to the sky in awe and joy drunken with the beauty of life.

I rose with my black coat white powder all over. Pamela looked at me
with seemingly envious expression of my total lack of inhibition and
care-free spirit waving to passers-by.  I love life. The true life
which God makes. I was enjoying the shadow of my breath on the white
snow under the street lamp. I kept blowing out, again and again.
Thank you for that crisp fresh air in my lungs God. I could have
walked for hours, rescuing my body from the flashes of fire, embraced
by the cool, friendly and gentle breeze. I love this life.

The branches of the trees are like silver lace under the moon-light
and those under the lamps just like laces of gold.
God! the powdery snow sparkles like diamonds under the moon light.
I love life! Just live it period. I feel like my spirit is going to
explode with joy. I am just crazy about life. When I die, I hope I'll
remember these gifted moments of this night. Hope you don't mind that
I shared them with you. Hope it was worth your dime.

love,
quanta



=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 96 19:45 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of Writings

>Sandy said:
>The Baha'i Faith is *not* Sufism.
>
Burl sings:
>Hmmmm....(all together, now)
  God is Sufistic unto me....

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************




=END=


From: "QUANTA  DAWNLIGHT" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date:          Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:47:05 EST
Subject:       my question was....

Esteemed scholars/translators,

My question about the Tablet to the Physician dealt with one
sentence which I translated from Turkish by M. Inan in the Tablets of
Baha'u'llah. It said something about women in regards to fear and
anxiety. I am sorry I don't have it with me right now, so please
refer to my earlier post. I see it from a cultural perspective, but
unable to understand the universality of its spiritual application in
terms of gender equality. It said:
"Say! Oh friends. Fear and anxiety is becoming of woman..."
Culturally I can understand its content. But my spirit is confused 

love,
quanta




=END=


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:18:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Remey
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Jackson Armstrong-Ingram" ,
        "Arsalan Sadighi" 
Cc: "Talisman" 

(excerpted)  Jackson writes:

>I think we also have to be very careful about the kind of anecdotes which
>have been posted about Remey to illustrate his 'arrogance.'  Not only is
>it problematic to suggest that there are character flaws the existence of
>which may be predictive of a tendency to become a CB, but it is
>problematic to assign such very specific readings to these incidents
>after the event.  For instance, if one of the others involved in these
>anecdotes had been declared a CB, these incidents would probably be used
>as illustrative of their jealousy of Remey's position as President of the
>International Council and their inability to accept a precedence
>conferred by the Guardian.  If no-one involved had been declared a CB,
>the same anecdotes would probably be used to illustrate the existence of
>a 'joking relationship' (as anthroplogists term it) among the Hands.

I believe what you say is reasonable speculation.  I have nothing to say
against Mr. Remey.  I believe in the old Roman adage, "Of the dead speak
nothing but good."  My only interest would be to point out the
observation that CBs seem to have an exagerated view of their own
importance.  Perhaps, what Jung was refering to when he spoke of
"Inflation" of the ego.  I have noted among the covenant breakers, at
least the prominent ones,  a tendency towards the belief that they are
entitled to leadership.  This seems to manifest itself in a certitude of
self that appears unjustifiable even in terms of their personal
accomplishments.

It is, naturally, going to be dangerous to be named a Hand of the Cause
because of the dangers of such an inflation taking place.  However,
Remey may have been named to that post as a possible preventative
measure, for his own good, and as a way of keeping him in check.  I'm not
saying anything against Mr. Remey because we are all at risk, but I don't
know if we are required to make excuses for him either in order to be
just and loving.

Richard


Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jarmstro@sun1.iusb.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Remey

> I think we also have to be very careful about the kind of anecdotes which
> have been posted about Remey to illustrate his 'arrogance.'  Not only is
> it problematic to suggest that there are character flaws the existence of
> which may be predictive of a tendency to become a CB,

I think you have a good point.  I have heard him being described as being
haughty and aloof, but how much of this was his upper class up-bringing?  He
was from a Washington family of judges, military officers and government
officials.  I wonder how different his behavior was from other Baha'is of his
time with his background.

Don C



He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:56:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Male and female attributes



Quanta:  Baha'u'llah makes it clear in many Tablets that he thinks of
courage and steadfastness as "male" attributes and of timidness and
weakness as "female."  *However*, He does not think one's biological
*sex* determines one's gender.  So some biological "women" are *actually*
"men" or "masculine" because they have great courage and steadfastness;
while some biological "men" are actually "women."  He says this openly.

Baha'u'llah points out that it took great courage and steadfastness to
adopt and champion the Baha'i Faith in Qajar Iran.  He says that the
Baha'i women of his time have proved themselves "males."  And he points
out that the reason *most* Qajar men had not adopted the Faith was not
that they did not find it attractive but that they were afraid of
persecution by the clergy and the state.  These very large numbers of
timid, supposed "men" were in fact "women."

Quanta, after seeing you in action for so long on Talisman, I can assure
you that Baha'u'llah was not talking about persons such as yourself in
the Lawh-i Tibb!

While Baha'u'llah did urge women to teach the Faith "like men"
(mardanih), `Abdu'l-Baha also did urge men to become more feminine, more
concerned with peace, reconciliation, consultation, and less concerned
with establishing power hierarchies among themselves through posturing or
violence.

Contemporary feminists who have a problem with the
hierarchization of "male" and "female" attributes in medieval Muslim
societies should remember that these were the only terms available to
Baha'u'llah, and he promptly employed them in an ironic way that entirely
undermines them.

There will inevitably be a demand for sources and citations.  I have
actually posted these remarks last summer along with, I think, some
citations, and perhaps Eric can retrieve that.  Otherwise, I have written
some of it up and if there is interest can probably find time to put it
over to ASCII and post it.


cheers   Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:06:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: SFotos@eworld.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Islam & Ethnocentrism (Re: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of Writings)

Sandy wrote:

> The Baha'i Faith is *not* Sufism.

Dear Sandy--

I would argue that the Baha'i Faith is *nothing but* Sufism and esoteric
Shi'ism universalized.

Don't take this the wrong way because I'm not pointing a finger at
you. However, this notion that the Baha'i Faith is the universalization
of the mystical dimension of Islam is *so* emphatically rejected by many
Western Baha'is, and especially if they happen to be American Baha'is, that
I'm beginning to think that the objection has more to do with the ingrained
ethnocentric (often bordering on racism, and not to mention hopelessly
uninformed) notions held by many European-background Baha'is about Islam
and the Iranian Islamic ethos eo ipso -- notice Brent's reaction to
John's paper. Unfortunately it usually doesn't make a difference which
side of the social-political spectrum you belong to; many left-leaning
Baha'is and many right-leaning Baha'is will often deprecate Islam and
Muslims with equal vigor -- Persian Baha'is, due to legitimate personal
gripes against fundamentalists back home, compounded by biases held,
aren't helping the situation much either.

This might be stretching it a bit but it seems to me that even the Baha'i
Faith has not been able to eradicate the image of the "religion of
the infidel Saracen" from the minds of many Baha'is. Perhaps this has to
a lot do with a mentality deeply imbeded within the Western European
cultural psyche; one which is a carry-over from the Crusades, incredibly
condescending towards the East, I might add, and never quite dispelled,
as nineteenth and twentieth century imperialistic discourses about Islam
have proved. Thus the knee-jerk reaction displayed by so many at the
suggestion that the Baha'i Faith is in fact Sufism is not to be
unexpected, I guess.

Nima


**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit  *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth    *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning.                 *
*                                                            *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg     *
*   and Wilhelm Dilthey                                      *
**************************************************************





=END=


From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 02:04:36 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fundamental(ism) to Unity

     Dear Phillip and all ,

      About two weeks ago I mentioned to Phillip that I would comment further
on the interfaith dialogue issue and ways to re- think what Bahau lah may
have been all about .Phillip aksed if I could re-state this about four
different ways . I dont know about that but here is a slightly different way
.
     This is the continuation of that thought based on the SV especially the
Vallley of Unity and the pages from ESW 11-15 where Bahau llah gives as clear
a description of His purpose as I have been able to find .  It is my attempt
to answer the question "Why be a Bahai ?"

     In ESWp.13-14 Baha u llah admonishes His followers in the following
manner :" Gird up the.loins of your endeavor ,O people of Baha, that haply
the tumult of religious dissension and strife that agitateth the peoples of
the earth may be stilled , that every trace of it may be completely
obliterated."

     He continues decrying "religious fanaticism and hatred" and invoking the
"transcendent and most sublime station" - unity - . And suggests the
inseperablity of justice from its appearance in the world by noting that "so
long as the thick clouds of oppression obscure the daystar of justice, remain
undispelled, it would be difficult for the glory of this station to be
unveiled to mens eyes."   Hence the  indispensible link between justice and
unity . It seems reasonable that one of the sources of injustice ,
considering the context of Bahau llah's own life , was  the  existence of
"religious fanaticism  or what we might call today *fundamentalism*.

     In the Seven Valleys , the Valley of Unity ,  He writes about three
stations and says "Thus , for that they move on these three different planes
, the understanding and the words of the wayfarers have differed; and hence
the sign of conflict doth continually appear on earth. Again in ESW he states
" That the diverse communions of the earth and the manifold systems of
religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity
among men , is , in this Day , of the Essence of the Faith of God and His
religion."  That animosity is a form of hatred and conflict which are related
to religious fundamentalism seems clear .  That this has implicationd for
Bahai teaching work also seems clear both in terms of what we teach and how
we teach. I would suggest that the success of our efforts will be related to
how well we follow Bahau llahs unitry paradigm outlined in the Seven Valleys.

    In the same discussion of  "conflict" in SV Bahau lah elaborates on the
three stations in question that become sources of conflict or rather the
station which is the principle form of that conflict.  he closes a discussion
of Platonic forms and natures with this observation :
 " In sum , the differences in objects have now been made plain. Thus when
the wayfarer gazeth only upon the plain of appearance - that is when he
beholdeth only the mant coloured globes- he beholdeth yellow and red and
white; hence it is that conflict hath prevailed among the creatures, and a
darksome dust from limited sould hath hid the world. And some do gaxe upon
the effulgence of the light ; and some have drunk of the wine of oneness and
these see nothing but the sun it self."

    I would suggest the following way to translate this into contemporary
language .

   1) many coloured globes - this is the station of difference , seperation
or the existence of the *other*.  This is the station of Fundamentalism .  In
this station a person or group asserts that is has the final truth , the only
truth or the best truth . This an experience commmon to the entire human race
. In some form or another each of us has been raised in a context ; religious
, ethnic , national , cultural in which this is or has been asserted . It is
older than the hills and twice as dusty as the saying goes.
    The slogan which accompanies this station I suggest is : The One True
Faith .
  otherwise known as variations on the chosen people theme which is some form
exists among all human beings . Bahau llah seems to be suggrsting clearly
that this station  is the source of conflict among humankind. How is it
possible for literallly hundreds of human groups and numerous religions to
make such claims and all be true on the level at which they are asserted ?
They cant . We must introduce another station to resolve the *conflicting *
claims to status as the "One True Faith ."

  2) the Effulgence of the light - This is the station of similarity ,
commonness and the recognition of the *other* .  In contemporary terms I
suggest this can be called the station of Pluralism . It involves the
recognition that the "many - coloured globes "are not only distinct objects
but are also forms of Light al beit the emphasis is on the diverse
appearances of that light - yellow , red and white as Bahau lah notes.
   The slogan appropriate to this station is "All Faiths are True ."

     Bahau llah seems to not stop there however and lauds yet another station



=END=


From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:21:50 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Dear Dr. Burl

Dear Dr. Burl,

He has struck again--that  list member who brings Times crossword puzzle
writers to their knees!!

Juan wrote:
>Baha'u'llah's mystical poetry and many of his mystical writings
>of the Baghdad period are very much rooted in the conventions of >Sufi
poetry, much of which employed amorous tropes to express >the seeker's love
of God.

Dear Dr Burl, what are tropes?

Troubled in Tokyo



=END=


From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:58:54 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Islam & Ethnocentrism

Dear Nima,

I'm going to reply quite briefly because of pressing business. However, you
wrote:

----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------

 Thus the knee-jerk reaction displayed by so many at the
suggestion that the Baha'i Faith is in fact Sufism is not to be
unexpected, I guess.
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------

Actually, knees would also jerk uncontrollably if you were to suggest that
the Baha'i Faith were Catholicism, Mormonism, Taoism, Southern Baptist-ism,
etc.  The Baha'i Faith *is not* Sufism, Zen, Tao, Hinduism, some form of
Christianity, Orthodox Judaism, or what have you.  In fact, we all know that
it is new. If it were not new and were simply, for example,  Sufism
revisited, what would be the point?

I'd like to suggest that it is spurious to assume that people react to an
eroticization of devotion because they are anti-Muslim.  In many nonAmerican
cultures of the world a link between arousal and devotion is to be avoided,
not cultivated.

In fact, one might argue that the real ethnocentricity is to insist that the
Faith should only be seen through the eyeglasses of Islamic tradition.

Respectfully,
Sandy




=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 18:30:31 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg" 
To: Sadra , friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp
Cc: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Islam & Ethnocentrism (Re: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of
        Writings)

Dear Nima:

> I would argue that the Baha'i Faith is *nothing but* Sufism and esoteric
> Shi'ism universalized.

It is probably a good thing you left such a big escape route from your
argument (i.e., it is the previous religion universalized), because it
would be hard to square your thinking with the idea of progressive
revelation otherwise.

However, that nice word "universalized" is a tricky one.  Pick *any*
religion, say Judaism, for example.  Then, you can just as easily claim
that "the Baha'i Faith is *nothing but* Judaism universalized" and
you would, of course, be entirely justified in doing so.

It wouldn't be good to give an opportunity to the more scurrilous
among us (for example, Friberg) to claim that you have actually
said nothing.  But, there is a greater danger: you seem to be
claiming a kind of priority for insight into the Faith by those
who are versed in Sufism.

It is tempting, of course, to believe that the latest prophet has
come to endorse one's own particular set of beliefs or expertise,
vindicating them.  To avoid the appearance of succumbing to this
temptation, which I know you avoid, wouldn't it be best to broaden
and justify your claims a bit more?

We sorely need to understand some of the underlying doctrines of
Sufi thought, especially those concerning religious diversity!  I
suggest something from ibn Al Arabi, or perhaps Professor Chittick's
excellent digest of his thinking, *Imaginal Worlds* (SUNY, 1994).

Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg

P.S. I am reading Chittick on al Arabi now.  I am fascinated by it,
but have some Eurocentric questions to throw your way.



=END=


From: "QUANTA  DAWNLIGHT" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date:          Mon, 5 Feb 1996 05:00:25 EST
Subject:       Re: Male and female attributes

Dear Juan and beloved talismanians,

Thank you for the thoughtful response.  However, I am not so sure
about what you said regarding my little self and I am really not
concerned personally about it.  I regret having been hurtful, though.

But, it was important for me to understand in order to share with
those who are investigating the truth and how some Writings seemingly
contradictory of equality. I still question the application of human
qualities to gender. Courage, honesty, detachment from image and
reputation are without gender, IMHO. So, why qualify them such as?
I found these gender based qualifications basically culture bound,
not necessarily spiritually based.
Future generations will eradicate these attitudes. I am very hopeful
about the young people. I found them extremely
well advanced; even while I was in Turkey, I noticed young men to be
very different from my time (I am almost a half a century old now 
I believe strongly that the reason divorce rate is so high among the
baby-boomer generation is that men of our time are having difficulty
accepting that women can surpass them in many aspects of what used to
be a male territory. The men just cannot stand it, period.

But, I was extremely impressed by my sisters' husbands. Their sense
of respect and cooperative attitude towards women. God bless them.
I think I am gonna find me a young husband this time  Anyone???
Sorry, did not mean to go on a tangent. Anyway, thanks again.

love,
quanta



=END=


From: "Mark A. Foster" 
Subject: Universalism
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 04:14:10 -0600 (CST)

To: talisman@indiana.edu

Nima -

    You wrote:

S >I would argue that the Baha'i Faith is *nothing but*
S >Sufism and esoteric Shi'ism universalized.

    Personally, what I would say is that the Baha'i Faith represents the
universalization of the eternal religion of God (i.e., "the science of
reality") and of *all truth* - regardless of whether it can be directly
tied to a specific religious tradition. As such, the truth in Socratic
and Platonic thought, irrespective of any historic connections to a
specific religious tradition, has been universalized in the Revelation
of Baha'u'llah. Obviously, the spiritual gnosis/irfan in Sufism and
Shi'ism would be included in that universalization process. The Master
wrote that the Baha'i Teachings provide a collective center which can
attract various types of minds.

    My difficulty is with your use of the expression "*nothing but*." I
don't think, especially at this early stage in the development of the
Baha'i Faith and before its resurrection, or fulfillment, during the
ministry of the next Prophet, that any one of us, as members of "the
generation of the half-light," can place limitations on the Baha'i Faith
- even if in doing so, one is attempting to demonstrate a type of Baha'i
universality.

    From my POV, the challenge is in recognizing "the words He hath
revealed" as narrative expressions of the divine Logos (Knowledge) which
can connect us with the emanated diversity in the kingdom of names and
attributes. Then, as the "mind comprehendeth the abstract by the aid of
the concrete" (`Abdu'l-Baha), the symbol vehicles which lie *hidden* in
that diversity can *point us to the inner world of spirit*.

    However, the narrative is not, IMHO, the ultimate reality. Truth can
be discovered by obtaining an inner vision into the scriptures of all
the world's religions - not just esoteric Islam. IOW, Baha'u'llah's use
of the language of the Sufis, Shi'ihs, or Zoroastrians should not, to my
understanding, be confused with the inner meaning beyond the words - the
*metalogic*. Symbolism may vary tremendously from one set of religious
texts to another. It is for that reason, as I see it, that the words
themselves may, at times, become a barrier, cloud, or veil, to the
higher comprehension.

To the Light,

Mark (Foster)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty  *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Dir., Reality Sciences Institute * Owner, Baha'i Science of Reality List    *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality  *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production)  *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us  *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 * Co-Moderator, a Baha'i List   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
       "The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
        Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
    "The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
     to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha



___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity




=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:04:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Islam & Ethnocentrism (Re: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization o
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Sadra" , 
Cc: "Talisman" 

>Don't take this the wrong way because I'm not pointing a finger at
>you. However, this notion that the Baha'i Faith is the universalization
>of the mystical dimension of Islam is *so* emphatically rejected by many
>Western Baha'is, and especially if they happen to be American Baha'is, that
>I'm beginning to think that the objection has more to do with the ingrained
>ethnocentric (often bordering on racism,


Sadra:  come, come now!

Let's not start that again.

One should not attempt to clarify a debate by overstepping the bounds of
moderation.

I see your point, but you must admit that Sufism cannot be considered
identical with Baha'u'llah's revelation, otherwise there would have been
no need for His Revelation, and many Sufis would probably agree with
that!  Is it not true that the Sufi trend of  thought teaches that each
person can ascend to the heights of a Jesus Christ?  And isn't it true
that there is a story related of a Mulla that took the position that he
was even greater than Jesus in the presence of Baha'u'llah and that the
Manifestation corrected this man?

While you may argue that Pantheism is not a part of Sufism ("Only God
exists;  He is in all things and all things are in Him") , and that
"Stational Egalitarianism" is not a part of Sufi doctrine--who is really
to say what is Sufism and what is not?

Obviously,  Shia is the womb of the Babi and Baha'i Faiths there is no
disputing that!

Richard


Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:37:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Trope of Cancer and Sinaic Imagery
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Talisman" , "Sandy" 

Dear Sandy,

I believe it was Henry Miller in his twin fictional discussion "The Trope
of Cancer" and the "Trope of Capricorn" that really brought Sinaic
Imagery to the forefront of western adolescent thought.  You might want
to try "a trilogy:  the Rosey Crucifixion"  (1945-47).  Of course he
moved to Big Sur and went through many obscenity trials, but died in 1980
in Pacific Palisades, California.

Richard



Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:19:20 -0500
To: mbamford@treehouse.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Artist Compilation

Dear mark,

i have seen several such compilations. in fact, most of the quotes are in a
research department compilation on "music." anne atkinson of BAFA has one on
arts, but it is not too different from the one on music. however,  such a
compilations are of limited use for 2 reasons.

First, the quotations about "arts" are quite general.  Shoghi Effendi tells
us that a civilization only produces distinctive forms after a long process
of development, and for this reason nothing Baha'is do now can deserve the
name "Baha'i art." He also tells us we may use any style we wish, though we
should try not to offend, and be mindful that what is appropriate in one
gathering may not be appropriate in another(this especially in regard to
music).In Advent of Divine Justice is a famous and difficult phrase from
Shoghi Effendi ( similar to sentiments common in conservative art criticism
from the turn of the last century) about "the prostitution of arts and
literature." Also, we should use the arts, especially music and drama, in
teaching. Comments from  Abdu'l Baha are more general still. In fact, most of
the comments from Abdu'l Baha in the compilations referring to "arts" appear
to use the word in its classic and broadest sense--as when we speak of "the
arts and sciences" or "liberal arts" or earn a "bachelor of arts" degree in
college. That is, referring as much to the "art" of history or literary
criticism or philosophy as what we call the "fine" or "commercial" or
"applied" arts. He said that "inspiration" comes  from souls who have  passed
on.  Abdu'l Baha recommends study and practice of "arts" as worship, though
not such as "begin and end in words." Significantly, he says that to have a
spiritual effect and aid teaching, arts must be practiced with
"sociability."(Baha'i World Faith)  Baha'u'llah in the Aqdas removes the
prohibition against music which some sects of Islam derived from a hadith.He
says that music is a ladder for the soul and that it should be used to uplift
and not to appeal to the lower nature.

This is the gist of the "Baha'i arts compilations" I have seen.We should know
that work is worship. We should have a sense of appropriateness. The arts can
be used to teach, and, no matter how innovative we may think ourselves to be,
we cannot leapfrog over the long process of cultural development that must
precede the creation of a "distinctive Baha'i style of art." In addition, we
know that Baha'u'llah forbade figurative images in the Mashriqu'l-Ashkar.
Also, Baha'is are not permitted to make an image of a Manifestation(such as
Christ) or portray one on stage or screen, although Abdu'l Baha is said by
Balyuzi to have wept at a passion play in New York. I am not sure of the
source of this prohibition, though it is well known. I think it is from
Shoghi Effendi.

The second reason is that such compilations, with their narrow focus on
direct mentions of "arts" or "music" or "drama" in the writings or statements
of Shoghi Effendi, can never represent the full range of statements in the
Writings which actually bear on the subjects of aesthetics or meaning. This
is a big subject! Nearly every prayer refers to the meaning which Baha'u'llah
has infused into the entire creation. The Seven Valleys is of great relevance
to the practice of art for anyone who connects that practice to a search for
meaning.If I had to choose one sentence to cite for an artist it would be
"Man must abound in sanity to merit the madness of love." Also, in the
Dawnbreakers, a statement is attributed to the Bab at Mahku where He mentions
the poet Hafiz and quotes him about the Araxes river (He was looking at it)
and tells Mulla Husayn that Hafiz did not know the true significance of his
lines. "It is the immediate influence of the Holy Spirit that causes words
such as these to stream from the tongues of poets, the significance of which
they themselves are oftentimes unable to apprehend."(British
edition,pp.180-181) Such a statement is significant for a number of
reasons(particularly that poets may not understand the significance of their
own statements.) but has never been referred to in any "arts compilation" I
have seen. Ludwig Tuman's "Mirror of the Divine--arts in the Baha'i World
Community" cites all of the Baha'i scripture and statements of Shoghi Effendi
included in the "arts compilations" and is supposedly based on them. In fact,
his perspective on the nature of the arts and his frame of reference are
terribly narrow and he makes so many questionable assumptions that this book
is of little value except as a demonstration that to apply the wisdom of the
Teachings to a given phenomenon one must also study the phenomenon itself. If
one gains an appreciation of art history and comes to understand the various
ways that people account for the various powers and social as well as
aesthetic and conceptual effects of the arts in diverse contexts, or if one
simply immerses oneself in the intuitive and intellectual processes of making
images of one kind or another, for one sort of audience or another or simply
for oneself, one can find relevant statements for that process throughout the
Writings. Focus, for example on the word "grace."

david taylor



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 07:38 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Megha Shyam 
Subject: Jesus Scholars Debate
Cc: momen@northill.demon.co.uk

Wendy and Moojan Moomen write:

> Don't miss the "JESUS AT 2000" E-mail Debate!

>The JESUS AT 2000 list server offers anyone with an e-mail address the
     opportunity to witness a debate--as it happens--between three
     internationally known and widely published Jesus scholars.

     Marcus Borg, John Dominic Crossan, and Luke Timothy Johnson will
     discuss their views about the historical Jesus in a free electronic
     forum sponsored by Harper San Francisco.

     This e-mail debate will begin the week after the JESUS AT 2000
     symposium, which will take place at Oregon State University from
     February 8-10. The JESUS AT 2000 symposium is the first national
     scholarly symposium commemorating the 2,000th anniversary of
     Jesus's  birth in 4 B.C. It will include lectures by six acclaimed
     scholars  (including Borg and Crossan) on the historical, religious,
     and cultural significance of Jesus.

     Details about the symposium are available on the HarperCollins
    Website:  http://www.harpercollins.com/news/jes2000.htm

     The post-symposium e-mail debate presents an opportunity to
     extend  this forum to a worldwide audience. And it gives Jesus Seminar
     scholars Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan the opportunity to
     debate their viewpoints with their foremost critic, New Testament
     scholar Luke Timothy Johnson.


   Hello:

   Marcus Borg, who is a very popular professor on campus here has been
   the driving force for this conference.  We hope to have several friends
attend
   the conference.  Steven Scholl wrote me a week or so ago that he will try
   to attend the meeting.  As we get closer, we will try to post some
impressions
   from the friends who were able to attend.

   Marcus Borg is at the same time some what controversial in the
evangelical crowd,
   and usually drives students of this background "nuts" when they take his
class.
   His classes are often televised on cable or university owned channels and
broadcast
   on Oregon educational network.

   Megha Shyam





=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:17:25 -0700
To: Jonah Winters 
From: alma@indirect.com (Alma Engels)
Subject: Re: (Not?) Erotic Imagery
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

Jonah, perhaps you need to change dictionaries rather than words.  My old,
cheap Merriam Webster's Collegiate -- extra cheap as it is a paperback --
defines erotic much as yours does.

But not my new Oxford one which shows the word as being derived from sexual
and then doesn't mention sexual again.  Rather:

adj. Of or pertaining to the passion of love; concerned with or treating of
love; amatory

This can, of course, be specifically sexual and some very beautiful erotic
literature is.  But it need not be.  As a poet, I have written erotic verse.
Think all poets have at one time or another.  And in my opinion the most
erotic one I ever wrote consisted of three short poems written a week apart
which described the ripening of the peaches on my peach trees rather
accurately.  The only fiction was an imaginary 'you' who was impatient to
eat the peaches.

In peace,
Alma

At 12:11 PM 2/2/96 -0500, Jonah Winters wrote:
>Stephen's point is well taken. The dictionary defines erotic as:
>
>1. Of or concerning sexual love and desire; amatory.
>2. Tending to arouse sexual desire.
>3. Dominated by sexual love or desire.
>
>

 To tread the path of Love                Alma Engels
          Is no mere game.                alma@indirect.com
          For only one
          Out of many thousands
          Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)




=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 18:20:35+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: power

Dear Kevin:

Thanks for the thoughts on power and different models of power structures
which have been presented by people, and touching upon some models suggested
in the Baha'i Writings.  A few questions, please.

Where does creative power fit in?  Creative power can be from one
individual, or a collective group.  Intuitive power, meditative power, and
creative power are not manipulative in nature.  Power does not necessarily
mean control.  The power to generate new ideas, the power to carry them
through to completion, the power to innovate on the way with creative
insight really doesn't fit any of the models you have proposed.  These types
of power need to be applied in a collective sense as well as individual,
which is where consultation plays a big role...that is consultation in the
Baha'i sense, and not in a manipulative sense.  The minute A tries to get B
to do what he would otherwise not do, you have no power...just manipulation.
And manipulation stops when the manipulator does...just like a puppet and a
puppeteer.

The parameters you have outlined leave me cold as an artist and as a human
being wishing to live in a dynamic community; I would tend towards being a
hermit in such a situation, only engaging in dialogue with such a society as
necessities of life dictated. There is no basis for trust, creativity or
love in a manipulative situation.  But then, that is one of the big hang-ups
I have with religious communities, including the Baha'i Community, and
political discussions.  I really hate being manipulated.  I dig both feet in
firmly as a reaction when I feel manipulated, no matter if it is by force,
by bribery or by moralistic bludgeoning.  (I guess I am a true Canadian
afterall...sigh!)  I much prefer a consultative atmosphere of questioning
and discovery, both my own and collectively, as a path to inspiration,
motivation and action....power.  I have a hard time reconciling what I think
I am reading in the Writings with any political model we have to date.  They
all fall short,

Love,

Bev.




=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:31:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Atlantis.


Dear Friends, here i go again!! The lady i told you all about that i work
with who always has interesting questions about the Faith asked another
one today and i don't have a clue to the answer. So, please assist.

She asked if Baha'u'llah or any other figure in the Faith has ever said
or written anything about the lost civilization of Atlantis?

Look forward to hearing any suggested answers to this question.

Regards,

Cheshmak



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:55:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Joan Osborne asks
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Talisman" 

  Joan Osborne asks:

What if God was one of us

Just a slob like one of us

like a stranger on a bus

tryin to find his way home

                             ---Joan Osborne


If you only knew.

Richard

Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:48:45 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re:Islam & ethnocentrism

      Dear Friends ,

   I think --- when Nima says Baha is Shia esotericism universalized it is
important to understand his assumptions and as , Mark might say , his
*metalanguage . Instead there is a reaction to his words at a particularistic
level  or Bahau llahs station " of many colored globes" .

    If I understand my friend at all the first assumption is that of the
perennial philosophy as cogently expressed in Sufism and which Bahau lah
reaffrims it seems to me .  This perennial philospohy is what Bahau llah has
come to teach and universalize or as I prefer to describe it he has come to
*institutionalize* it.  It is reflected , i think in the statement "the
prophetic cycle hath verily ended the Eternal Truth is now come " . The
Eternal Truth is not Bahau llah as Husayn Ali it is THE Glory of God .

   As for the Bahai Faith being *new * and therefore the latest and my dear
friends carrying with it in western usage all the baggage of *new* better *
best * I must say I dont find much in the Bahai faith per se that is new . In
fact one of my major spiritual tests several years back was this recognition
that I could not find much difference between Bahai and Islam. I am saying
this at the level if theosophy not social form . I submit that Bahais often
confuse the social form of the Faith with some existental "newness" .  If the
first and the last are the same in relation to God , the beginning and the
end are one then we ought to take pause and consider what we "Mean" when we
say New or invoke progressive revelation . After all if this is a cycle to
last five hundred thousand years there will be many many more manifestations
and the Bahai Faith will have been superceeded many times over by the same
logic. . This seems to me to make largely irrelevent an association of the
faith with newest or this icky concept thrown around of progressive
revelation .

     The changeless Faith of God is not simply a code word for the Bahai
Faith  and in turn that a code word for Bahai community and, as I dealt with
this weekend , that in turn a code for administration .

     Baha u llah is the Prophet of the One True God , he universalizes Shia
esotericism , Catholicism , Buddihism , Judaism etc.   I  must confess to not
finding anything distrurbing about this nor do I have a desire to *prove *
there is something newer , better about the Faith . I think all these
attempts betray a fundamental (ist) mindset which is simply the desire to
exalt ones own faith to a position slighty better or more important than the
additional faiths of the world .  That this has been the mindset of the human
race from god knows when is to be overcome .
   I would ask we think about what we mean when we say :"new* or invoke
*progressive* revelation. and then think about how to reconcile that with
Bahau llah's repeated command to "consort with the followers of all religions
in friendliness and fellowship ".  If Bahau llah says to paraphrase Prof.Cole
"I am all the Prophets " the exact same thing is true of all the Prophets
 which means all the Prophets are Baha u llah .

   warm regards ,
     Terry




=END=

From: "Eric D. Pierce" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date:          Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:32:43 PST8PDT
Subject:       Rush Limbaugh: Idiot?/ Re: de Maistre

Juan,

Dude! Cool post. Have you heard about the new book by one of
the ex-Saturday Night Live (TV) comedians (Al Franken?) called
"Rush Limbaugh Is A Big Fat Idiot"?

I haven't been able to keep up with talisman email trafic, so
I'm not sure it is relevant to the discussion. :)

EP

> Date sent:      Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:37:29 -0500 (EST)
> From:           Juan R Cole 
> To:             talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject:        de Maistre

>
>
> Non-Marxist antiliberalism developed in reaction to the Enlightenment,
> with its key values of parliamentary governance, freedom of speech and
> conscience, due process and other human rights.  Antiliberalism, it seems
> to me, has four major forms:
...snip



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 09:46 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Dear Dr. Burl


     SFotos writes:
>>Juan wrote that Sufis "employed amorous tropes"

   Dear Dr Burl, what are tropes?
>
>Troubled in Tokyo
>
    Dear Big Trouble in Little Tokyo:

    Juan is once again showing off his knowledge of the obscure. According
to my comprehensive guide to Talisman words, tropes has its origin in a
unique culturaly resonate myth, and in a colloquial linguistic corruption.
 (1) "tropes" in archiac usage, was an agricultural marketing term used for
"cheap dates." This meaning is derived from :
 (2) The ancient myth of the Trope Triplets -- Patti, Maxine, and June. Of
the three, Patti and Maxine were indeed "cheap dates" -- they offered
themselves with wild abandon on the alter of eros and are the inspiration of
much erotic imagery down through the ages. Their versatility in the erotic
arts earned them not only much fame, but great wealth. Although they were
"cheap dates," volume selling was their business.  So uplifting were the
erotic experiences enjoyed with these two, that they were continually
employed by seekers of love desiring the pentultimate experience of
surrender and release. June, the most buxom of the triplets, led a life of
sexual abnegation and asceticism and was a perpetual virgin until the day
when, according to legend, she exploded. Hence the expressions: "June is
busting out all over," and, concerning her virginity,  "Nothing so rare as a
day in June."

I sincerely hope this help your understanding.

Warmest regards,

 Dr. Burl

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************




=END=


Subject: Origins of Cult of Consumption
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, Noble-Creation@bcca.org
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:43:53 -0500 (EST)
From: "Donald Zhang Osborn" 

Allah'u'Abha!  Is anyone familiar with William Leach's _Land of Desire:
Merchants, Power, and the Rise of a New American Culture_ (Pantheon, 1993)?
I've seen some reviews but have not had time to read the book.  It documents
the role of large scale merchants (and some scholars) around the turn of the
century in the U.S. in promoting buying to satify whims (not just needs) in
order to move more merchandise.  Leach sees this as a cultural revolution
which interestingly was led largely by men reacting against the strict
Protestantism they grew up with.  It was their effort that ultimately seems
to have given materialism in the West its current dimensions.

Much has been written on capitalist economics, the mass market, etc, but this
book tries to examine the motives and methods of the earliest mass marketers
and their effect on values.  I'd be interested in any reactions, especially
relating to social and  economic development.

               Don Osborn   osborndo@pilot.msu.edu



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:56:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Mark Foster 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re:Islam & ethnocentrism

Terry -

Just a quick response to your posting, since I have to teach two
back-to-back classes in twelve minutes:

It seems to me that there is a difference between the Prophets
Themselves, both major and minor, Who are all seated on the same Throne,
proclaim the same Faith, etc., and the progressive natures of Their
teachings. In that light, I am not sure what you mean about some people
believing that one religion is better than another. Certainly, the Baha'i
Faith is not better than Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, etc., but it does
represent a more developed *metalogue* (to continue using a form of the
term from yesterday). World unity requires additional spiritual
preparation which Baha'u'llah has provided for us and which was not not
possible, due to a lack of capacity, in previous Dispensations.

To the Light,

Mark (Foster)



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 13:47:35 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Dear Dr. Burl
To: talisman@indiana.edu

---- Begin
Dear My best Friend Dr. Burl
I must point out that the lovely Patty was the muse for the immortal
words Pat a Cake Pat a Cake--. Maxine, secret hidden and powerful
sources inform me is the great second Aunt of the lovely nubile leather
clad female twin Cousins of Juan's who entertained Juan and yourself at
the ABS conference. For which I am receiving the correct weekly
donations into the Derek Patagonia Holiday Fund for not forwarding the
video to your wives.I am always dedicated to sevice.Trope for those for
us who had to suffer Latin in our schoolboy days relates to the choral
aspects of the jolly old Mass in Latin. This of course brings back
memories of terror and the following of Caesar through Gaul. Tropy is
of course a combining turning which I am sure Juan had never thought
of. Sandy of course is in Japan where the study of the Troposphere will
soon be of paramount importance as well as the study of Tropism. I
personal believe my dear Juan will lead a study on Tropism and relate
it to the Liberal-democratic forces dormant in Tropologly I feel sure
if we bug him enough.
Your best Friend Dr. Uncle Derek


     SFotos writes:
>>Juan wrote that Sufis "employed amorous tropes"

   Dear Dr Burl, what are tropes?
>
>Troubled in Tokyo
>
    Dear Big Trouble in Little Tokyo:

    Juan is once again showing off his knowledge of the obscure.
According
to my comprehensive guide to Talisman words, tropes has its origin in a
unique culturaly resonate myth, and in a colloquial linguistic
corruption.
 (1) "tropes" in archiac usage, was an agricultural marketing term used
for
"cheap dates." This meaning is derived from :
 (2) The ancient myth of the Trope Triplets -- Patti, Maxine, and June.
Of
the three, Patti and Maxine were indeed "cheap dates" -- they offered
themselves with wild abandon on the alter of eros and are the
inspiration of
much erotic imagery down through the ages. Their versatility in the
erotic
arts earned them not only much fame, but great wealth. Although they
were
"cheap dates," volume selling was their business.  So uplifting were
the
erotic experiences enjoyed with these two, that they were continually
employed by seekers of love desiring the pentultimate experience of
surrender and release. June, the most buxom of the triplets, led a life
of
sexual abnegation and asceticism and was a perpetual virgin until the
day
when, according to legend, she exploded. Hence the expressions: "June
is
busting out all over," and, concerning her virginity,  "Nothing so rare
as a
day in June."

I sincerely hope this help your understanding.

Warmest regards,

 Dr. Burl

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************






=END=


Date: 05 Feb 96 13:06:39 EST
From: Steven Scholl <73613.2712@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman 
Subject: Sex and Theophany

Good friends,

Great new, uh, thread (g) here with the sexual imagery material. I appreciate
the debate and especially Sandy's thoughts. Perhaps part of the problem is the
tendency to literalize these images. I do not see these writings as being
interpreted from the "sexual perspective" but from an archetypal perspective.
With archetypes being the unknown organizing principles of life that are
manifest via images. I think we are dealing here with love's body. The reason
the images are so physical and sexual is that it is impossible to ignore the
physical and sexual in our dreams and visions. Thus Baha and mystics the world
over tend to experience mystical visions in the form of sexual imagery or at
least with some kind of embodiment. As Theo Cope always use to remind us, one of
Jung's major insights is the psyche or soul is identical to imagination and that
we always exist in the act of imagination. Other mystic images also can be
emphasized in Baha's works for those who do not relate to the sexuality, eg, nur
or light. But even here we are still in an image. Again, the art needed is to
see these images as real but not to literalize them. James Hillman is
indispensable here for a non-literalizing approach to the imagination.

I also think it hasty to eliminate sexuality from "the next world" whatever that
might be. I think the next world is here and now in our soul's imagining. Baha
likens the next world to the dream world, which is full of sex imagery. So I
might agree with Tony that gender is largely a social construct but that
sexuality may also be more than biology and more than a social construct. It may
be rooted in the very nature of the Absolute Ground of Being and the process of
manifestation from unknowable Essence to creation.

And contra Sandy's statement: "These writings are a reflection of  spiritual
realities which are hidden from us. The idea of maids of heaven, etc.--these are
spiritual entities the nature of which we can't comprehend in our present life".

I think that these writings are the most manifest of the manifest and the most
hidden of the hidden. These images of Maidens and Manifestations, of Light and
Darkness, of Gushing Springs and Serpents, are all theophanic images or
expressions of the Beauty of the Unseen and can be comprehended via direct
experience. We comprehend them by being them, ie have them manifested as who we
are within the context of mystical experience. When Terry describes his ecstatic
experience of the Maiden, it is not just a matter of something outside of him
that enters him. When She comes to him Her face appears from within, ie Her Face
emerges from Terry's soul, ie his soul is the Maiden in a unique manifestation
that conforms to Terry's unique higher self. So yes, we can comprehend them. We
are called each day to know and to love God. Knowing and loving the Maiden or
the Manifestation or the other god images in the writings is part of the mystic
path we are called to travel.

This is not a closed matter and of course Sandy's interaction with the writings
is completely valid. I think that is one of the beauty's of the Baha'i approach.
We see with our own eyes and not with the eyes of others. I don't think this is
an either/or affair. Sandy's experience will be her own unique experience. Not
mine, not anyone else's, except perhaps God's very own experience since we are
also called by Baha to see God with God's eye!


With love,
Steve Scholl




=END=


Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 16:17:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani" 
To: "jwinters@epas.utoronto.ca" <"jwinters@epas.utoronto.ca"@esds01.mrgate.bmoa.
umc.dupont.com>,
        talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Sexual Imagery not just Male

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]

Dear Jonah,

I'm a bit behind on my Talisman reading, but a few days ago you
wrote:

> The first is from Prayers and Meditations, page 126, in which
> Baha'u'llah adopts for Himself the female persona: "I am one of
> Thy handmaidens, O my Lord!  I have turned my face towards the
> sanctuary of Thy gracious favors and the adored tabernacle of
> Thy glory.  Purify me of all that is not of Thee, and
> strengthen me to love Thee and to fulfill Thy pleasure, that I
> may delight myself in the contemplation of Thy beauty..."

Actually, the way I read this particular passage is simply a
prayer for Baha'i women to read and not as Baha'u'llah adopting
female persona for Himself.  At least, it seems that's how Shoghi
Effendi read it as he left "me", "my" and "myself" all in lower
case.

I'll be interested seeing any passages in which He actually does
adopt a female voice, as presently I don't recall any.

best regards, ahang.



=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 23:53:35 +0100 (MET)
Subject: from Sonja-arts/film
To: talisman@indiana.edu


Thanks Mark for posting your response re: Richard's review of the film.
Having not seen the film, I cannot comment.

Tonight I've just come in from seeing 'Smoke" by Wayne Wang. I
found it quite good, but a pity that the end was drawn out instead of
just be left to end with the telling of the Christmas story. Then the
ending would have been magic. At times I also found it a bit slow, but
that could be my timing too.
It was set in Brooklyn and was centred around a tobacco shop. I liked
the simpleness and slowlness of the stories and the way they layered
over one another so that you were left with the old saying 'life is
stranger than reality'!

Re: arts compilations. There isn't anything decent, and I agree with
what David Taylor has said (BTW Anne has nothing to do with BAFA
(Bahai Association for the Arts)-David mixed this up with BIA (Bahai
Institute for the arts - an affiliate of the ABS I believe)

Infact, now with Refer any of these compilations are of little use. The
best reference on the arts and only use I found in Tuman's book, Mirror
of the Divine, is the reference section, where you can look up your
topic and find a quotation and source!

Thanks Dave for your views!
I think what is needed are more articles on the arts and views
elaborating on what Bahais think what 1) they think Baha'u'llah meant
by the arts, and 2) what artists think themselves about ideas like
Bahai art, Bahai artists, (I hate these terms, but they have to be dealt
with because they are used all the time) and things like THE purpose
(s) of art, etc.
And ya'll should really subscribe to Arts Dialogue 'cos these sorts of
things are addressed there too. Not many artists have access to email
you know -at least outside of the U.S. that is.

With that in mind I'll dig out what I wrote a few years ago: and I
welcome any response.

In the mean time some responses to Richard's comments on the way
"one approaches film as an art form as opposed to entertainment. I
believe people confuse the two."

I think we always confuse the two, just as we do with appreciating any
art form: it's part of our humanity (I'm not so sure as to call it nature,
but nurture anyway). Though I agree that the value of criticism is that it
helps people to go further/deeper than where they might otherwise
look/sense.
ANd i believe that the art of criticism is as important as art-making.

Film gets a particularly hard time because of it's familiarity via tv, and
so here criticism is more important than ever, but I do believe the film
making and criticism are linked.

If art criticism loses it's relationship to the creativity that happens in
artmaking, then you end up with criticism being what I would call
'words in themselves' . There's no rule- more -I feel it's an attitude.
Some art criticism is in my mind just wanking when it seems to me
that the purpoe to obscure or to show off how clever one is with words.
Yet some art falls into the same category for me.
Some art criticism lifts the art it addresses and is art in itself.

re: distance in art
>As far as creating distance between the work of art and the viewer or
>observer--this is naturally achieved in painting or it is certainly
>desirable in modern painting.
As far as I know, modern painting: meaning the abstract expressionist
movement of the '40's onwards, was concerned with universalism, and
the distance was the idea of a universal objectivity in the work so 'pure'
that it was somehow beyond the individually of the artist.
All just a story as far as I'm concerned, but I'm flippent about this
because I've had many art school years fighting this 'dinosaur attitude'.
We live in the good 'ol '90's and that sort of way of looking at art is
clearly just one way of working.
I also paint, and for me there's no 'natural distance' any more or less
than in any other area where you are working professionally. Of course
there's the idea of 'distance' but I would call this just getting a different
view, for the view may be closer. etc. I dislike the word 'distance' when
it is used in art making because it has often been used to imply 'a more
professional' and 'less responsible attitude'. When of course it doesn't.

I hate long postings-so I'll quickly get to another point and stop.

I agree art is not moral/immoral people are, and I link this to the idea
of Bahai art. People are Bahais, art isn't. So no Bahai art, but certainly
art made by Bahais. But there are probably some flaws in this thinking
and I look forward to hearing about them.
Good night!
Sonja




=END=


From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 21:41:58 +0100 (MET)
Subject: dating Ishraq
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Help from historians please:

Can anyone help with a date for the composition of the Ishraqat,
specifically the eighth Ishraqat? Taherzadeh gives no date, but
indicates that Jalil-i-Khu'i attained the presence of Baha'u'llah,
although the tablet was not necessarily revealed at that time (but
see p. 116 para 2 and p. 117 para 3). Pages 119-20, and the fact of having
a double introduction to the tablet, may indicate that the composition
was compounded - perhaps partly extempore, in response to questions,
and partly a compilation of previously revealed tablets. The passage
regarding interest on p 133 is apparantly simply copied over from the
earlier tablet to Zaynu'l-Muqarrabin, leaving his name in place in the
final blessing. This part is thus not revealed to Jalil-i-Khu'i in person.
Can anyone date the tablet to Zaynu'l-Muqarrabin?

Possible internal indications are given below. Can anyone relate these to
events? I have excluded references, such as that on p 121, to events
before the promulgation of the Aqdas in 1873. The reference on p 125
is the most promising and exact, if anyone has the relevant date.

p 106
"We restrained the Pen for a considerable lapse of time
in accordance with divine wisdom and for the sake of protecting
the faithful from those who have bartered away heavenly blessings
for disbelief and have chosen for their people the abode of perdition."

p 122: One day of days We repaired unto Our Green Island.
       - This would be after 1877, if Baha'u'llah remained imprisoned
       in Akka for nine years.

p 123: When those who had for years been hiding behind the
veils perceived that the horizon of the Cause was resplendent and
that the Word of God was all-pervasive, they rushed forth and
with swords of malice inflicted such harm as no pen can portray
nor any tongue describe.

p 125: The robber occupieth the seat of the protector and guard,
and the position of the faithful is seized by the traitor.  A year
ago an oppressor ruled over this city, and at every instant caused
fresh harm.
       - would this date it one year after Tawfiq's successor,
       whose name I don't know, had departed. Does anyone
       know names and dates?

p 131:
Such as have turned away from the Cause of God are diligently
seeking to collect the Holy Writings of this Revelation; and they
have already, through gestures of friendship, managed to secure
certain of these Writings from those who held them in their
possession.

Sen

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn                           ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47                   email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
                                 ***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
                 and the individuality of each,
         thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------




=END=


[end of 2/5/96 session]


Talisman emails received 2/6/96
--------------------------------------------------------


From: coleman@olimp.irb.hr
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 22:42:25 MET-DST
To: TALISMAN@indiana.edu
Subject: Continuing Dialogue with Bruce B.



Current dialogue between Bruce Burrill and Baha'is:

Jack Coleman:  "Wherever there's a creation, there's a Creator. You
can't have a creation without a Creator."

Bruce: Of course, but then that assumes that the universe is a
creation.

Jack: "Buddha speaks (from modern and probably misinterpreted
texts) of created things."

Bruce: He does? Please show us. I read Pali and can muddle through
with Sanskrit, and the Buddha does not speak of created things.

Jack: Really? In the Sutta Pitaka, in Chapter XX, Buddha proclaims:
"All created things perish...All created are grief and pain". In
the Udana, v. 81, Buddha says: "O monks,, an unborn, unoriginated,
uncreated, unformed. Were there not, O monks, this unborn,
unoriginated, uncreated, unformed, there would be no escape from
the world of the born, originated, created, formed..."In the
Dhammapada, v. 374, Buddha states: "The man who is free from
credulity, who knows the Uncreated, who has severed all ties, who
....., is exalted among men."  (Want more citations?)

Jack: Remember, back 2,500 years ago, Buddha's followers were worse
off than 2,000 years ago when Christ preached to His followers. His
words were written over a hundred years later. Today there are
abundant misinterpretations of His [Jesus'] words. So what about
Buddha? His monks tried to memorize everything He said for over 200
years. Finally King Asoka wanted some of these sayings of Buddha to
be written down. Can you imagine the confusions over what this line
of monks might have thought Buddha said or meant? And what to
include or exclude, deliberately or inadvertently? Today, no school
of Buddhism has the monopoly on interpretation of Buddha's
Teachings on vital issues such as Buddha's Divinity, His stand
concerning the nature of the Soul-Mind, its existence and
"Reincarnation," and His concept of Nirvana, Dharma and Karma.

Bruce: Actually quite to the contrary. The Buddha taught for 45
years as opposed to 3. India of the Buddha's time was very much a
culture of highly refined oral traditions, and it would be more
than somewhat foolish to think that the Buddha in his 45 years of
teaching was not concerned with the preservation of his message.

Jack: Of course, He must have been concerned. So were all the other
Prophets concerned with the preservation of Their words. Yet people
remember the Messengers but forget the messages. The symptoms
affecting Buddhism are to be found in all the other ancient Faiths.

Bruce: Your claim that there was confusion over what the Buddha
meant is as arrogant as it is ignorant of the history of Buddhist
ideas.

Jack: Then, let's take an example of this alleged confusion, Bruce.
Your  claim of `atheism' attributed to Buddha's doctrine seems to
dwell only on His tirades against the Hindu pantheon of
anthropomorphized deities. The far-fetched assertions of the
Brahmins in His day claimed all sorts of affiliations with the
Absolute and proclaimed detailed knowledge concerning Its nature,
Its form and Its dictates. They constantly confronted Buddha who
stood opposed to such anthropomorphic concepts of the Absolute or
Brahma that the Brahmins and the masses held at His time. His
vituperations were clearly directed against those vain imaginings,
to such all too human gods. His distaste strengthens for us His
affirmation of the Absolute - the Unmanifest Brahma of the
Upanishads, as He states in the Digha-nikaya, I. 235. (Tevijja
Sutta): "What do the Brahmins say of Brahma?  Is his mind full of
malice, sloth or pride?" "No, sir!" was the reply "He is the
opposite of all this." And the Buddha went on: "But are the
Brahmins free from these vices?" "No, sir!" said Vasetta. The Holy
One said: "The Brahmins cling to the five things leading to
worldliness and yield to the temptations of the senses."
     As Prof. Lawrence Bale also indicated, it is evident that
Buddha is discrediting not the Unmanifest Brahma, the Absolute or
God, but only those forms and attributes of Brahma concocted by the
Brahmins to assert their superiority over the masses through their
claims to characterize the Supreme. But Buddha is not reserved
about claiming to know the way to Brahma. He states: "the Tathagata
(Buddha) knows the straight path that leads to a union with Brahma.
He knows it as one who has entered the world of Brahma and has been
born in it."
     This eternal Reality, whether we call it the Unmanifest
Brahma, or the Uncreated, or the Supreme, or the Absolute, the
Essence or God, reveals Itself to Buddhas Who are perfect mirrors
reflecting Its truth (Dharma). In the Majjhima-nikaya, 1. 137-140
and other passages, Buddha unequivically refutes any denial of the
Essence: "And as all things originate from one Essence, so they are
developing according to one law, and they are destined to one aim,
which is Nirvana. Nirvana comes to thee, Kassapa, when thou
understand thoroughly and when thou livest according to the
understanding, that all things are of one Essence......He [the
Tathagatha] does not impart to them at once the fullness of
omniscience, but pays attention to the disposition of various
beings."
     Bruce: What [How?] irrational [it] is to think that you can
prove the Buddha believed in a god by referring to Baha'i
teachings, which have no geographic, philosophical, historical, or
spiritual connexion with Buddhism.

Jack: You wouldn't believe that Baha'u'llah is Omniscient as is
Buddha. So texts from Baha'u'llah would not help you. So let's talk
about the Budddhist texts instead. In the Sutta Pitaka, that Lin
Yutang calls "a great spiritual testimony, one of the very few
religious masterpieces in the world," in Chapter XIV, Buddha is
considered "the Awakened, the Omniscient". Omniscient, of course,
means the All Knowing. To us, this means God. In the Digha-nikaya,
III. 84, Buddha gives a clue to the paradox facing Buddhist atheist
and non-theist exponents: "This, Vasettha, is a synonym for the
Tathagata: Dhamma-body and again Brahma-body, and again Dhamma-
become and again Brahma-become."
     Buddha is also referred to in the texts as the Self-Existent,
the Blessed One, the Universal Mind. Baha'u'llah equates the
Universal Mind with the Word, the Command, the Will of God. We
Baha'is respect Buddha as the Word of God, the Universal Mind made
flesh. The point of Buddha is the same as the point made by
Mohammed. Just as Christians have commonly held an anthropomorphic
concept of God with Mohammed's affirmation of the Absolute, so too
the Buddhists scholars have confused the commonly held
anthropomorphic god Brahma with Buddha's affirmation of the
Absolute (Unmanifest Brahma). Yet Buddha clearly identifies Himself
with Brahma. Belief presupposes interpretation.

Jack:  "In a sense, I regard myself as a Buddhist"

Bruce: Certainly not on the basis of understanding what Buddhism is
and what the Buddha taught.

Jack: Nevertheless, I am as much a Buddhist as a learned Christian
is a Jew or a learned Moslem is a Christian or as a learned Baha'i
is a Moslem. Christ, like Buddha with the Brahmin priests,
castigated the Jews over interpretations of Moses' laws that He
said He came to fulfil; Mohammed, like Buddha against the worldly
Brahmins of His time, castigated the Christians over Christology;
and in turn, Baha'u'llah, like Buddha, castigated the Moslems over
their superstitions, misunderstandings  and misinterpretations .

Jack: "I'm only sorry that I have to wait until the next life, not
reincarnation either as you believe, but the next life where the
learning processes continue, before I get to know what Buddha
really said."

Bruce: What can I say in response to this? That this is an ugly
statement? Though Steven Scholl states that there is a more liberal
take on Baha'i that would be scandalized and saddened by such
arrogance towards another tradition in the name of Baha'i, however,
in my general contact with Baha'is over 20+ years, I do not find
the _sentiment_ of this statement atypical.
     Quite frankly, Jack, you are doing more harm to Baha'i than I
ever could if that were my intention. And that saddens me. I may
challenge Baha'i and I may disagree with it, and I think it simply
wrong and wrong-headed on any number of things, but I see no point
in trying to do it harm.

Jack: Your disapprovals seem quite unbalanced. You do more than
challenge the Baha'i Faith and what it says. When you try to tell
us Baha'is and others that our Faith we believe in is erroneous -
to you, that's OK, its not arrogant, ugly, ignorant, irrational nor
harmful. Yet when we try to tell you what we think about the
Buddhist Faith, that we love, and what it really might mean in the
light of new Teachings - to you, that's not OK, it's arrogant,
ugly, irrational, harmful, etc. What a sense of justice! Yet we
Baha'is love the Buddha and what He really is, whereas you are
malcontent with Baha'u'llah and what He really is.
     We regard you as quite intelligent and scholarly, Bruce.
Perhaps we can bring about some semblance of unity or even
resolution of our different POVs by seeking the "common ground" of
where we might agree and take it from there. Maybe we'll see you in
a more appropriate environment such as Bridge-L or Talisman to
continue this most interesting dialogue in the presence of other
scholarly and intelligent people that might like to participate in
helping to resolve these vital issues.





=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:42:19 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alex Tavangar 
Subject: Re: Jesus Scholars Debate

At 07:38 AM 2/5/96 PST, you wrote:
>Wendy and Moojan Moomen write:
>
>> Don't miss the "JESUS AT 2000" E-mail Debate!

>     The post-symposium e-mail debate presents an opportunity to
>     extend  this forum to a worldwide audience. And it gives Jesus Seminar
>     scholars Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan the opportunity to
>     debate their viewpoints with their foremost critic, New Testament
>     scholar Luke Timothy Johnson.
>

I don't mean to dampen anyone's enthusiasm for an inspiring intellectual
exchange but this sounds like a boxing match that perhaps should be held in
Las Vegas with the participation of the gaming industry.

I am not familiar with the work of these "scholars" but out of  my sympathy
for The Christ I hope they haven't bought into the same hype that their
audience may be encouraged to aspire to by the debate's sponsoring business
entities.

I am, nevertheless looking forward to hearing about the issues discussed in
this virtual meeting.

Best Regards,

Alex B. Tavangar




=END=


Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 18:07:56 -0700
To: SFotos@eworld.com
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: Dear Dr. Burl (entry by tropes?)
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu

Please excuse me for interjecting here but I fear, this time,  Burl is
inadvertently wandering into the paths of delusion.   If I may speak
figuratively, I figure that considering all the talk we've heard over the
past decade about entry by tropes, if we don't know what they are by now
we're in big trouble. Juan seems to suggest that we should  concentrate on
attracting the amorous variety of tropes (not to be confused with armoured
troops), or attempt to enamour them so that we can win them over.   This
idea is not without historical precedent. The Amorites (from whom the term
amour is derived)  attempted to enamour the Hittites.  The Hittites
mercilesslessly exploited and defeated them  (hence the phrase "Hitting
upon".

Gordon.
****************************************************
"whatever seeks to exist and endure also desires to be one; for without
unity, existence itself cannot be sustained"       (Boethius 524 A.D.)
****************************************************
Gordon A. McFarlane                       e-mail:  McFarlane@upanet.uleth.ca
919  11th Street South                      phone: (403) 327-2987
Lethbridge, Alberta; Canada
TlJ 2P7




=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 22:43:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters 
To: Ahang Rabbani 
Cc: talisman 
Subject: RE: Sexual Imagery not just Male

Ahang wrote: "Actually, the way I read this particular passage is simply a
prayer for Baha'i women to read and not as Baha'u'llah adopting
female persona for Himself.  At least, it seems that's how Shoghi
Effendi read it as he left "me", "my" and "myself" all in lower
case."

Thanks, Ahang, that is a very good point. So, of course, that would be
the authorized interpretation, if that is how the Guardian interpreted
it. But I wonder, do you think that both interpretations are possible?
I'm thinking of the many texts in which Baha'u'llah's narrative changes
person a few times, from, say, God to the Manifestation to His Pen, and
so on. Please tell me if you think of any passages in which He does adopt
a female persona.

-Jonah

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527





=END=


From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:40:08 -0500
To: Member1700@aol.com, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia

Thankyou,  Tony. Point accepted. I just meant to state that AFDC was not
designed to serve the urban poor, which class includes many "working poor,"
nor was it a product of the "war on poverty."  It has been criticized as
exerting negative pressure on family structure of poor families-- sometimes
as in Moynihan's report, black families--but is at worst only one of many
such pressures. Welfare has helped people to survive in the face of massive
discrimination in housing, employment and basic services such as education.
The problem with welfare has been with many prejudiced welfare workers and
 institutional racism in the application of welfare rules and procedures.  It
has never been so attractive as to induce people who could get reasonable
employment to refuse it.

David Taylor



=END=


From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:57:03 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Jesus scholars debate

     Dear Alex and all ,

    I would suggest not letting the title  *debate * dissuade you from
listening in and learning from these folks.  The debate rhetoric is
commercial hype .   If ,in this case it wil get large numbers of people to
listen to some wonderful scholarly work then I am willing to let the Spirit
use that means .

     I am familiar with all the participants in this discussion , at least
the on -line version . John Dominic Crossan's work is on my ten favorite list
. I have read almost everything he has written . His _The Historical Jesus_
and Jesus : A Revolutionary Boigraphy_ are , in my view masterworks . Crossan
does n't know it but his work is what brought me back to being a Bahai .  I
cant express enough admiration fro the activist and truly revolutionary
portrait of  Jesus that he presents . Crossan 's work remind me of Juan
Coles' efforts with regard to the Historical Baha u llah . I can only hope
his book meets the ame reception and generates as much enthusiasm and
dialogue as has Crossan in Christian circles. if you want to get a feel for
how truly revolutionary the *Prophets * are , read Crossan  . . .and Cole.

     I am also familiar with Borg's work and admire it for different reasons
 . I might suggest his _Meeting Jesus Again For the First Time_. he will make
the *spirit * of the Christ come alive as part of a living tradition .

   Johnson, s work is the classic evangelical criticism of Biblical
scholarship that has been going on for nearly a century. It is an attem,pt to
re-assert things such as incarnation and the literalness of scripture . All
one needs to do is read the IQAN and find Borg and Crossan engaging . Oh and
dont confuse the Christ as logos with Jesus of Nazareth . Borg and Crossan
are going to focus heavilly on the human rational soul of Jesus . Johnson
could use a good lesson in Bahau lahs standpoint epistemology a la the SV 's
Valley of Unity .

    One can only hope that the level of scholarship and dialogue represented
by Borg and Crossan  will someday appear in the Bahai community with respect
to Bahau llah and thereby enrich all of our lives so much more .  In the
meantime ; thank goodness for Talisman , warts and all .

  warm regards ,
     Terry



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:24:59 -0800 (PST)
From: David M Simmons 
To: Talisman 
Subject: Translations Needed

Can anyone refer me to the official or unofficial translations into
English of Baha'u'llah's
	Lawh i Kullul Ta'am (Tablet of All Food)
	Lawh i Tibb (Tablet of Medicine)
Jilla Simmons
Spokane Valley, WA, USA



=END=


From: "Eric D. Pierce" 
To: TALISMAN@indiana.edu
Date:          Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:47:05 PST8PDT
Subject:       Re: Continuing Dialogue with Bruce B.

A few points:

Bruce B. is (or was recently) subscribed to talisman.

Bruce and other (Baha'i) talisman subscribers have
discussed similar Baha'i/Buddhist issues before.

Extensive G-ETHIC email list archives might have to
be made available for those wishing to retrace the
history of the G-ETHIC conversation between Bruce B
and Baha'is on that list. Same for old talisman
conversations.

For some reason, Baha'is seem to get very frustrated
with and sometimes subsequently hostile to Bruce B.

As a person that was strongly influenced by Buddhism
before becoming a Baha'i, and who has a brother that is
still Buddhist, I have found the hostile attitude of
some of the online Baha'is toward the points Bruce is
making (*and his person*) exceedingly offensive and
rather discouraging in terms of the state of interfaith
dialogue in the Baha'i community. Do we really have
to continue insisting that it is ok for Baha'is to
shove our religious ideas down other people's throats?

I'm not personally satisfied that Bruce has presented a
completely wholistic argument against the "mainstream"/
"official" Baha'i position on the existence of God,
"progressive revelation", etc., but the interesting and
provocative specific points he HAS brought up require a
far deeper and more thoughtful response than the usual
overreactionary half-cocked fireside blather and crapola
that has typically been thrown in his face.

At some point, it is better to admit that we (Baha'is)
don't seem to have the expertise to coherently address
his concerns about Buddhist/Baha'i theological conflicts,
otherwise we (Baha'is) will probably end up looking
ridiculous, stubborn and unwilling to learn from other
religious traditions.

I was particularly intrigued by Steve Scholl's G-ETHIC
musings about the possibility that Buddha may not actually
be a Manifestation in Baha'i terms.

Any feedback is appreciated,

EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 21:57:16 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill 
Subject: Re: Continuing Dialogue with Bruce B.

Jack Coleman,

Before I actually respond your missive, let me ask you several
questions, and I hope you will attempt to answer each. Once these are
answered I can respond to your msg.

1] > "In the Sutta Pitaka, in Chapter XX" <  Do you know what
"Chapter XX" of the Sutta Pitaka is?

2] > '"All created things perish...All created are grief and pain".' <
Do you know what the Sanskrit/Pali word is for "created?" Do you
know if "created" is an appropriate translation of whatever word it
might be?

3] > 'In the Udana, v. 81, Buddha says: "O monks,, an unborn,
unoriginated, uncreated, unformed. Were there not, O monks, this
unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed, there would be no escape
from the world of the born, originated, created, formed..."' <  Do
know the context of this passage? And can you discuss each of the "un"
words as they appear elsewhere within the Pali texts and tell us what
they refer to?

4] > "Yet people remember the Messengers but forget the messages.
The symptoms affecting Buddhism are to be found in all the other
ancient Faiths." <  I gave you a lengthy discussion of how the message
of the Buddha was very carefully preserved, but you have only implied
with no justification that somehow the Buddha's message was lost. How
do you know that the Buddha's message was lost; how do you know that
the monks and nuns have not kept the spirit and letter of the Buddha
alive?

5] > "He states in the Digha-nikaya, I. 235. (Tevijja Sutta)" <  Have
you actually read the full text of the Tevijja Sutta?

6] > 'But Buddha is not reserved about claiming to know the way to
Brahma. He states: "the Tathagata (Buddha) knows the straight path that
leads to a union with Brahma. He knows it as one who has entered the
world of Brahma and has been born in it."' <  There a number of
discourses in the Pali texts that deal with this subject, have you read
them? Do you know by what adjective the Buddha characterizes the goal
of union with Brahma?

7] > "This eternal Reality, whether we call it the Unmanifest
Brahma, or the Uncreated, or the Supreme, or the Absolute, the
Essence or God, reveals Itself to Buddhas Who are perfect mirrors
reflecting Its truth (Dharma)." <  Do you know what the Buddha
claimed as being the source of his enlightenment?

8] > 'In the Majjhima-nikaya, 1. 137-140 and other passages, Buddha
unequivically refutes any denial of the Essence: "And as all things
originate from one Essence' <  Yes or no, have you read the
Majjhimanikaya I 137-140?

9] > '"And as all things originate from one Essence, so they are
developing according to one law, and they are destined to one aim,
which is Nirvana."' <  Is this an actual Buddhist texts?

10] > "You wouldn't believe that Baha'u'llah is Omniscient as is
Buddha." <  What did the Buddha say about claims of omniscience
made of him?

11] > '"This, Vasettha, is a synonym for the Tathagata: Dhamma-body
and again Brahma-body, and again Dhamma-become and again Brahma-
become."' <  Do you know that the words tathagata and buddha are
also used by the Buddha to refer to the enlightened follower?

12] > "Buddha is also referred to in the texts as the Self-Existent,
the Blessed One, the Universal Mind." <  And you cite this text, and
give a careful exegetical discussion of its techincal terms?

Before we can talk any further here or elsewhere, I would really like
you to honestly answer each of these questions

Bruce B




=END=


From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: from Sonja-arts/film
Date: 05 Feb 1996 22:10:39 GMT

> Infact, now with Refer any of these compilations are of little use.

This is true only if you assume that the only quotes applicable to a subject
are those that use a certain keyword(s).

BTW, does REFER permit the construction of personal compilations that can be
acccess by it?  This can be done with Library, the Mac program.  It seems to
me that this capability is a significant advantage, allowing numerous
compilations to be developed over time and modified as new material is found
or made available.  Library also permits cross indexing of material and the
incorporation of the text files being developed either by the Research Dept
at Haifa or the provisional translations being posted here.

Don C



He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 23:28:35 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein" 
To: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT" ,
        "Juan R Cole"
	
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Male and female attributes

Please do repost your past remarks if you find the time. I'd love to see them.
It's enchanting to learn about the language and metaphors of the
Manifestation. This forum is the only place where a person can do that on an
on-going basis.

Hannah, who is:
a)	Male
b)	Female
c)	Who cares?
d)	None of the above
e)	All of the Above

and the correct answer is..........

e !!

The Artist Formerly Known As Cary  :-)


----------
From: 	owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Juan R Cole
Sent: 	Sunday, 04 February, 1996 21:56 PM
To: 	QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: 	talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 	Re: Male and female attributes

Quanta:  Baha'u'llah makes it clear in many Tablets that he thinks of
courage and steadfastness as "male" attributes and of timidness and
weakness as "female."  *However*, He does not think one's biological
*sex* determines one's gender.  So some biological "women" are *actually*
"men" or "masculine" because they have great courage and steadfastness;
while some biological "men" are actually "women."  He says this openly.

There will inevitably be a demand for sources and citations.  I have
actually posted these remarks last summer along with, I think, some
citations, and perhaps Eric can retrieve that.  Otherwise, I have written
some of it up and if there is interest can probably find time to put it
over to ASCII and post it.


cheers   Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 00:29:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: power and antiliberalism



Kevin:  I think all your posts on this subject have been very
thought-provoking, and thank you for instancing Galbraith and raising the
question of definition of terms.

I am myself not very sophisticated about political science theory.  I
lived in politically oppressive countries in the Middle East, and I know
firsthand what despotism and censorship and denial of due process are,
which most coddled Americans (especially political theorists) do not.  My
main interest is this:  If a majority of the people believe the policies
of its government are wrong-headed, do they periodically have the
opportunity to vote in a different government?  In about 61% of countries
in the world, they do.  In the others, they do not.  In the Middle East,
they only really have this opportunity in Turkey and Israel (and Pakistan
if you want to count it as part of the region rather than as South
Asia).  In Syria when the people of Hama in 1982 protested the
government, 10,000 of them were massacred by Hafez al-Asad's tanks and
many just bulldozed into the ground.  These events are not abstractions
for me.  Other questions could be asked.  If someone is arrested, do they
have the right to due process?  (I was once expelled from Egypt for being
a Baha'i, after being interrogated by the secret police).  Do people have
the right to freely expressed political opinion?  (I was routinely
censored while working for a newspaper in Beirut; I know what censorship
is and what it does, and I do not like it.  I think it is practiced in
the Baha'i community).

Now, obviously, democracy is more than just voting in or out a
government; otherwise it can turn into elective dictatorship (as some
argue happened to England under Thatcher).  But I'd be willing to start
with this basic criterion and then worry about full public participation
in governance later, because elective freedom is a sine qua non for these
other developments (you don't get a lot of popular input into government
decision-making in Syria).

My problem with mainstream Baha'i political theory as it tends to be put
forward in the U.S. is that I don't find it democratic in any sense of
the word, except perhaps in small, face-to-face local communities.  And
as an author, of course, I find current practices intolerably restrictive
in the bounds placed on discourse (prepublication censorship, accusations
of weakness in the covenant, demand for constant cheerleading; disallowal
of public critiques of official policy, even at the merely national level).
And I am alarmed no end by the way in which this theory tends to be made
absolute; to be conflated with theocracy; and to generate critiques of
democratic societies and their liberal rights of which Joseph de Maistre
would have been proud.  (I have seen all these things ad nauseum on
Bahai-Discuss and to some degree on early Talisman, as well).  All this is
the more disturbing in light of Baha'u'llah's and `Abdu'l-Baha's
unequivocal and consistent support for democracy and human rights.
(None of this applies to Kevin, of course, but it is not Kevin who
scares me.)  I don't think Baha'is will have much to offer the civilized
world with regard to political theory until they recover and reintegrate
the democratic emphases of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha with their
Administrative order.


Distribution of wealth in a society can really be broken down in a number
of ways.  One can look at ownership of privately-held wealth; one can
look at differentials in income; one can look at differentials in
consumption.  Ownership of wealth tends to be more unequal than income.
Economists measure differences in ownership of wealth by the gini
coefficient, which tells us how unequally it is distributed.  In the US,
the top 1% of wealth-holders have generally owned about a third of the
privately heald wealth over the past 2 centuries, but there have been
fluctuations up and down.  In the 1920s it was closer to 40%, as it is
now; in the 1950s and 1960s, it was closer to 25%.  In Brazil the top 1%
owns about 50% of the privately held wealth, a situation toward which the
U.S. is rapidly moving.  Even bourgeois economists admit that it can be
bad for the economy to have a high gini coefficient.  A rich person only
needs so many refrigerators; whereas if the wealth is spread around, you
might have lots of poorer families pop for refrigerators, which puts
people to work.  I read `Abdu'l-Baha as wanting to structure taxes and
the law so as to encourage as low as possible a gini coefficient
consistent with national prosperity, and to ensure that poverty is ended
(i.e. that there is full employment and workers are paid a living wage,
neither of which is true of the capitalist economies).  I read
`Abdu'l-Baha to say that these things can only be achieved if there is a
widespread desire in society to achieve them, that they are matters of
public values. In Communist Czechoslovakia a factory head ("CEO") only
made three times what workers on the shop floor did.  In the US typically
a CEO makes something like 50 times what the average workers do.  But the
way in which these things are a matter of values is demonstrated by
Japan, where CEOs make much less proportionately than in the U.S.  In my
view, Czech society paid too high a price for economic egalitarianism;
but US society is also paying too high a price for laissez-faire.

Despite all the obstacles and difficulties, I read the Baha'i scriptures
as urging humankind away from both capitalism and communism, away from
both despotism and anarchy, and toward a spiritual social democracy.  I
agree with Terry that in terms of the Baha'i community the *local*
mashriqu'l-adhkar and its dependencies must be the nuclei of this
ultimate vision.  And we must find ways of making our Baha'i
administration much less like a big Corporation (as Sen characterizes its
authority structure) and more like a democratic community.
"Consultation" in Baha'u'llah's Writings means *democratic* consultation,
as is proved by His frequent use synonymously of mashvirat (consultation)
and shura (parliamentarism).


cheers   Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 00:41:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: dating Ishraq



Sen:  I've never been able to find a date for Ishraqat.  Most of the
other supplements that *are* dated (Maqsud, 1881; Tajalliyat, 1886;
Firdawsiyyih, 1889; Lawh-i Dunya, 1891) derive from the 1880s or early
'90s, though.  I'm finding that many Khadem MSS have colophons, and some
Zayn ones as well, so it may ultimately be possible to date some of the
named Tablets more closely.

cheers   Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 23:37:48 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein" 
To: SFotos@eworld.com, "Sadra" 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Islam & Ethnocentrism (Re: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of
	Writings)

I discussed this question with a Sufi friend of mine at work this morning. His
opinion is pretty interesting. He feels that if Sufis took their faith to its
logical conclusion that they'd have to become Baha'is.

What books would you Talizens suggest that I might read to become more
broad-minded about Sufi beliefs and practices? I've never met a native Sufi,
just westerners who drifted into it from WASP backgrounds and
neo-Berkeley-60's culture. That probably means that I'm clueless as to its
real nature.

I would not dream of labeling anyone's post as blasphemous. Nonetheless, it's
difficult to understand exactly what people mean by the term erotic. Other
than the obvious, what does it mean?

Hannah,

The Artist Formerly Known As Cary  :-)


----------
From: 	owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Sadra
Sent: 	Sunday, 04 February, 1996 23:06 PM
To: 	SFotos@eworld.com
Cc: 	talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 	Islam & Ethnocentrism (Re: Sinaic Imagery & sexualization of
Writings)

Sandy wrote:

> The Baha'i Faith is *not* Sufism.

Dear Sandy--

I would argue that the Baha'i Faith is *nothing but* Sufism and esoteric
Shi'ism universalized.

Don't take this the wrong way because I'm not pointing a finger at
you. However, this notion that the Baha'i Faith is the universalization
of the mystical dimension of Islam is *so* emphatically rejected by many
Western Baha'is, and especially if they happen to be American Baha'is, that
I'm beginning to think that the objection has more to do with the ingrained
ethnocentric (often bordering on racism, and not to mention hopelessly
uninformed) notions held by many European-background Baha'is about Islam




=END=


From: "QUANTA  DAWNLIGHT" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date:          Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:13:54 EST
Subject:       RE: Male and female attributes

Dear Hannah,
you wrote:
>who is:
>a)  Male

----QDL a homosapien with muscles able to carry a woman over
the threshold after he makes false promises for love and fidelity.

>b)  Female--

QDL a homosapien who believes the lies of the muscle man

>c)  Who cares?

-- QDL at this point, I sure the heck don't. Do you?
Sorry folks, I don't mean to spoil the intellectual party, but
as you all know, I am shooting in the dark. I am not on talisman

QDL-But, the serious side of things to follow below these lines.

Dr. Juan Cole wrote:

>Quanta:  Baha'u'llah makes it clear in many Tablets that he thinks of
>courage and steadfastness as "male" attributes and of timidness and
>weakness as "female."  *However*, He does not think one's biological
>*sex* determines one's gender.

-QDL I must be living thousand years in the future where this language
is foreign. So, do the qualities determine one's gender? "What a woman
she is strong, brave like a man". Hmmmm??? It is like saying, wow
what a black guy, smart like a white man.



>So some biological "women" are *actually* "men" or "masculine"
>because they have great courage and steadfastness;

This implies that courage and steadfastness in essence are "male"
qualities, women are just able to emulate after men. NaaaaWW! Don't
think so. In fact, what I see in the media right now, such as women
trying to be like men, tough, violent, sexually agressive etc.
itself is a betrayal of both men and women. Those are the qualities
of the lower kingdom, not spiritual beings, whatever their sex.

>while some biological "men" are actually "women."  He says this
>openly. 


Yes! weak, etc. etc. Wrong again. As you see I am in a difficult
mood. The ideas of individual strength, courage etc. were  used to
make wars. Just as the false sense of freedom, democracy is used at
the collective level to justify wars for the greedy military
industrial complex. Haven't we seen enough of it in this century?

Sometimes I wonder if true religion is no religion at all.
I am getting sleepy and tired, so I better get off of this subject
now before I get into deeper trouble with myself.

lovingly,
quanta




=END=


Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 23:03:42 -0700
To: "Donald Zhang Osborn" 
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: Origins of Cult of Consumption
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

Donald asked . . .
>  Is anyone familiar with William Leach's _Land of Desire:
>Merchants, Power, and the Rise of a New American Culture_ (Pantheon, 1993)?

Neat coincidence!     I've just been reading  Jermey Rifkin's "The End of
Work".(G.P. Putman's Sons. N.Y. 1995),  the second chapter of which offers a
concise overview of the rise of the "Gospel of Mass Consumption" during the
1920's. The fellow who suggested the book to me (a career counsellor and
spiritually agitated agnostic)  said he found it extraordinarily depressing.
I've  been finding it quite uplifting for a number of reasons and it has
given me a good opening to discuss "The Prosperity of Humankind" and Baha'i
Principles with this gentleman.   It sounds to me as though Leach's book
might be a good one to read in tandem with it.
         Rifkin offers evidence to support Charles's Kettering's (G. M.)
claim that according to the gospel of mass consumption, "The key to economic
prosperity is the organized creation of dissatisfaction".  He sets out to
prove  that the economy of consumerism and  the flawed thinking on which
it's been based is leading us to situation in which an ever increasing
majority will be unemployed and impoverished while an ever diminishing
minority will reap the benefits. It is not only  leading to the demise of
the "working class" but "the end of work";   Obviously, a suicidal trend.
         Why do I find the book uplifting?  In the  first chapter, Rifkin
states "The idea of a society not based on work (as it has been
traditionally defined and as it has defined us)  is so utterly alien to any
notion we have about how to organize large numbers of people into a social
whole, that we are faced with the prospect of having to rethink the very
basis of the social contract."
        The social contract of materialist, capitalist culture has indeed
been based on the "organized creation of dissatisfaction". The only way to
sell an ever increasing variety and volume of products is to promise that
they will lead to a higher level of satisfaction - and who but dissatisfied
people require that.
        Rifkin is doing precisely what the Universal House of Justice is
asking us to do; conducting a "searching reexamination of the attitudes and
assumptions that currently underlie approaches to social and economic
development" without which "the next stage in the advancement of
civilization cannot be formulated".   For most of this century, work has
been performed in the spirit of the gospel of mass consumption. If Rifkin is
correct in his assertion that "work" of that kind is at an end - then good
riddance to it. Baha'u'llah anticipated this and redefined work as worship,
when performed in the spirit of service to humanity;  work geared toward
meeting the real needs of humanity rather than towards  "creating the wants
it seeks to satisfy".    Do we really have a clear understanding of what
Baha'u'llah means by "work performed in the service of humanity"?  Did he
imply that producing plastic parrots or flamingo's could be an act of
worship? Can the perpetuation of the cult of consumption be considered work
perfomed in the service of humanity when this, like lesser cults such as Jim
Jone's People's temple, the Branch Davidians or the Solar Temple is destined
to be consumed by itself?

        Rifkin writes, "In its original form, to consume meant to destroy,
to pillage, to subdue, to exhaust.  It is a word steeped in violence and
until the present century had only negative connotations.  As late as the
1920's it was still being used to refer to the most deadly disease of the
day - tuberculosis.  Today, the average American is consuming twice as much
as he or she did at the end of World War II.  The metamorphosis of
consumption from vice to virtue is one of the most important yet least
examined phenomena of the twentieth century."
        Anyway, Thanks Don. I'll read William Leach's book as well.

        On a totally unrelated matter, if anyone's still reading this - I am
making yet another serious effort to rid myself of a very common but
pernicious 30 year addiction which has led me to a rather bad state of
health - I'm not comfortable soliciting prayers but everything helps.
Interesting though - I recently changed doctors 'cause the old one gave up
on me.  The new one recommended "aroma therapy".  I wouldn't have thought
that was a legitimate medical technique, although it makes perfect sense to
me and it's having a very beneficial effect. This gentleman has used it to
treat addictions and attention deficit symptoms (they're close allies).  I
expect the odds are pretty good of some of you having kids with ADD so if
you haven't already,  you might look into it.  It's a heck of a lot cheaper
than drugs.





****************************************************
"whatever seeks to exist and endure also desires to be one; for without
unity, existence itself cannot be sustained"       (Boethius 524 A.D.)
****************************************************
Gordon A. McFarlane                       e-mail:  McFarlane@upanet.uleth.ca
919  11th Street South                      phone: (403) 327-2987
Lethbridge, Alberta; Canada
TlJ 2P7




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 00:51:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters 
To: talisman 
Subject: Schimmel / "Erotic" Mysticism


Dear Talismanians,

	May I share with you an excerpt from a paper by Annemarie Schimmel
on the meanings of profane symbolism in mystical writings. I feel that the
things she says here touch directly on, and even help to explain, the
topics that we've been discussing. While I am not drawing any conclusions
debated here about whether the Faith and Sufism are or are not intimately
tied, do let me draw your attention to a (different) paper Schimmel
delivered at the Baha'i Faith and Islam Symposium discussing some
relations between Sufism, Babism, and the Faith, a paper which was later
published by ABS in the volume _The Baha'i Faith and Islam_.

From "Sufi Literature," a paper based on a lecture:

"The concept of the revelation of God through the medium of human beauty
became one of the centres of mystical poetry [in Iran]... When you read
the ghazals of Hafiz [et al.], ...you never know exactly whether the
addressee of the poem is the Divine Beloved or a  human being; whether
the wine of which the poet speaks is real or is a metaphor for divine
intoxicating love; whether the taverns are real drinking places or the
place of union with God, etc. This aspect of Persian poetry caused
immense confusion, especially in the minds of Western readers. The
question of whether or not to interpret the poetry of ...the great
Persian language poets in a mystical or profane sense has divided
orientalists for more than 150 years. I personally think that the only
way to understand this kind of poetry properly is to know that behind
every outward meaning there is a secret meaning hidden and that the two
meanings belong together as much as the rays of the sun and the sun
itself cannot be separated. The greatest mistake we can make in
translating this kind of poetry is to take its symbolism at face value
and to transform [the poets] into libertines and wild, love-intoxicated
characters who had nothing to do but sing about beautiful girls or boys...

On the other hand, it would also be wrong to see their poetry exclusively
as an expression of mystical theories so that every black curl of the
beloved... is intended to mean the world of phenomena and every beautiful
radiant face means nothing but the uncreated beauty of God..."

-Jonah

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527





=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:35:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: SALVATORE INDIOGINE



Dear Salvatore, i sent this message to you 3 times to the address of your
message and it came back undelivered!! So i had to post it here. Is your
address changed or something?


On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, SALVATORE E INDIOGINE wrote:

> I do not know about Writings of the Faith. However, if you want to know I
> can tell you where Atlantis is (actually was).
>
> Bye,

Dear Salvatore, hi again. Nice to hear from you!! Yes please do send
information that you know, i am fascinated and so is this lady i work
with. She just saw a program on the Discovery channel that was saying how
when civilizations can no longer sustain themselves, they are destroyed
somehow. We would love to hear anything you can share with us and we will
eagerly look forward to your message and read it together.

Regards,

Cheshmak







=END=


From: xavier_echanique@email.fpl.com
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 01:00:12 EST
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Dariush Lamie <0007368608@mcimail.com>
Subject: Re: Re. Tablet to physician


Dariush,
I for one would like to have a copy of this Tablet. One of the most exciting
results of Talisman postings is access to additional writings of Baha'u'llah.
If you have it please post it.
Warm Regards,
Xavier

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re. Tablet to physician
Author:  Dariush Lamie <0007368608@mcimail.com> at Internet-Mail
Date:    2/3/96 3:11 AM


-- [ From: Dariush Lamie * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] --


Dear Quanta,

A brief note on the tablet  physician (Tablet of medicine):

This tablet of Baha'u'llah was revealed in Aka and was addressed to one of the
believers named
Mirza Mohamad Riza-i Tabib of the city of Yazd. I personally would be
interested to know more about the life of this believer, our dear scholars like
Ahang may be able to help.

Basically, if we can divide the Writings of Baha'u'llah into six different
categories as far as the language is concern, this tablet would be "A combined
language" (Lahn-i Mozdavag). The others would be:

1) Pure arabic    (Lahn-i Hejazi),  such as the arabic tablet of Ahmad
and......
2) Pure persian  (Lahn-i Parsi-i Sareh),  such as the tablets to Zoroastrians
3) Persian which has lots of arabic names, adjectives and verbs  (Lahn-i Araghi)
4) Part persian and part arabic "a combined language"  (Lahn-i Mozdavag) , such
as the tablet to physician.
5) Word by word translation  (Lahn-i tarjumeh) such as the tablet of "Kalamat-i
Aliat", Baha'u'llah Himself has translated from arabic to persian in one
tablet.
6) Poetry   (Lahn-i She'r) such as any of the poetry of Baha'u'llah.

The tablet that you are interested "Tablet to physician" or maybe better we
call it "Tablet of medicine" falls within the fourth category. the total is
about five pages three of them in arabic and two pages in persian.

I have not read this tablet for a while but as far as I remember it contains
the following:

1) High station of medicine and MDs. in the Faith.

2) A general spiritual guidance to MDs.

3) Advice to humanity to go to MDs in the case of sickness. (as you know there
are certain groups which prohibit doing so).

4) Advice to MDs to cure first by food rather than medicine.

5) Advice to public what not to eat, like two opposite nature food (Zedan)! or
eat little in the morning, walk after you eat....

** also, we should take it easy. So, since I had a long day today and now is
mid-night, I should leave it here hopefully others would add to it and correct
me as well.

lovingly,
dariush




=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 22:42:25 -0800
From: derekmc@IX.NETCOM.COM (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Continuing Dialogue with Bruce B.
To: talisman@indiana.edu

---- Begin Forwarded message
Dear Talismanians
I have noticed the varied discussions with Bruce on Talisman and I
received in the past some of the items from Baha'i/Discuss. I most
admit to being in agreement with Eric. Bruce's views of Buddhism are
his own and his concern. He is not prepared to accept Baha'i teachings
as they are presented to him or indeed as he has read himself. That is
his right and the nature of his response to what he regards as holy and
precious. Buddhism is an old and rich tradition that has many schools
of thought and application. To doubt the sincerity of the monks and
nuns who carried the Buddha's teachings to the time of the recording of
the Pali Texts I would suggest is just the same as saying the New
Testament is a false record of the teachings of Jesus Christ.Although I
personally can point to gaps in the recording of the New Testament. As
a Baha'i I would never suggest it is anything more or less than the
Inspired Word of God, the same respect is due to the Buddhist
scriptures.We are as Baha'is about the spiritual transformation of the
Planet to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah not the intellectual hounding
of another out of deeply held beliefs.I suggest a reading of the
Master's Will page ten might clarify teaching methods.

 I would also point out that I fail to see the reason why this
apparently private posting dialogue was placed on Talisman by Jack
Coleman.

 I thought also we had an informal rule about naming people in the
subject matter.
Kindest Regards

A few points:

Bruce B. is (or was recently) subscribed to talisman.

Bruce and other (Baha'i) talisman subscribers have
discussed similar Baha'i/Buddhist issues before.

Extensive G-ETHIC email list archives might have to
be made available for those wishing to retrace the
history of the G-ETHIC conversation between Bruce B
and Baha'is on that list. Same for old talisman
conversations.

For some reason, Baha'is seem to get very frustrated
with and sometimes subsequently hostile to Bruce B.

As a person that was strongly influenced by Buddhism
before becoming a Baha'i, and who has a brother that is
still Buddhist, I have found the hostile attitude of
some of the online Baha'is toward the points Bruce is
making (*and his person*) exceedingly offensive and
rather discouraging in terms of the state of interfaith
dialogue in the Baha'i community. Do we really have
to continue insisting that it is ok for Baha'is to
shove our religious ideas down other people's throats?

I'm not personally satisfied that Bruce has presented a
completely wholistic argument against the "mainstream"/
"official" Baha'i position on the existence of God,
"progressive revelation", etc., but the interesting and
provocative specific points he HAS brought up require a
far deeper and more thoughtful response than the usual
overreactionary half-cocked fireside blather and crapola
that has typically been thrown in his face.

At some point, it is better to admit that we (Baha'is)
don't seem to have the expertise to coherently address
his concerns about Buddhist/Baha'i theological conflicts,
otherwise we (Baha'is) will probably end up looking
ridiculous, stubborn and unwilling to learn from other
religious traditions.

I was particularly intrigued by Steve Scholl's G-ETHIC
musings about the possibility that Buddha may not actually
be a Manifestation in Baha'i terms.

Any feedback is appreciated,

EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)





=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 20:01 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall 
Subject: Re: Continuing Dialogue with Bruce B.

At 10:42 PM 5/2/96 MET-DST, you wrote:
>Current dialogue between Bruce Burrill and Baha'is:

Looks more like a dialogue between Bruce Burrill and Jack Coleman to me.

ka kite ano,
Steve

--------------------------------------------------------------
                  Alison and Steve Marshall
                 Email:  forumbahai@es.co.nz
 90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------




=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 23:01:05 -0800 (PST)
From: John Graham 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Artist...once Prince?

(For an artist who perhaps was not Prince:)

... Nietzsche wept a lot. We all know about the episode in Turin, for
example, where his compassion for a horse led him to take its head
into his hands, sobbing. As for the *Confessions*, we said that it is
the book of tears. At each step, on each page, and not only at the
death of his friend or his mother, Augustine describes his experience
of tears, those that inundate him, those in which he takes a
surprising joy, asking God why tears are sweet to those in misery
(cur fletus dulcis sit miseris), those that he holds back, in himself or
in his son. Now if tears *come to the eyes*, if they *well up in
them*, and if they can also veil sight, perhaps they reveal, in the
very course of his experience, in this coursing of water, an essence
of the eye, of man's eye, in any case, the eye understood in the
anthropo-theological space of the sacred allegory. Deep down, deep
down inside, the eye would be destined not to see but to weep. For at
the very moment they veil sight, tears would unveil what is proper to
the eye. And what they cause to surge up out of forgetfulness, there
where the gaze or look looks after it, keeps it in reserve, would be
nothing less than *aletheia*, the *truth* of the eyes, whose ultimate
destination they would thereby reveal: to have imploration rather
than vision in sight, to address prayer, love, joy, or sadness rather
than a look or gaze. Even before it illuminates, revelation is the
moment of the "tears of joy."

...Contrary to what one belives one knows, the best point of view...is
a source-point and a watering hole, a water-point--which thus comes
down to tears. The blindness that opens the eye is not the one that
darkens vision. The revelatory or apocalyptic blindess, the blindness
that reveals the very truth of the eyes, would be the gaze veiled by
tears. It neither sees nor does not see: it is indifferent to its blurred
vision. It implores: first of all in order to know from where these
tears stream down and from whose eyes they comes to well up. From
where and from whom this mourning or these tears of joy? This
essence of eye, this eye water?

-Derrida-

(from an ex-neighbor in Albany, John Graham)




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 00:03:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: "Hannah E. Reinstein" 
Cc: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Sufi Books (RE: Islam & Ethnocentrism (Re: Sinaic Imagery & 
sexualization of Writings)

Hannah--

To a Westerner just beginning a self-directed course in *studying about*
Sufism, I'd recommend the following books. NOTE OF WARNING: stay
away from anything by Idries Shah; any serious student of Sufism should
shun his works like the plague because they are the most unrepresentative
of the views of the Sufis and the mystical dimension of Islam in toto.

Frithjof Schuon _Understanding Islam_
- _Sufism: Veil and Quintessence_
- _Islam and the Perennial Philosophy_
- _Dimensions of Islam_

Martin Lings _What is Sufism?_
- _Symbol & Archetype_
- _The Book of Certainty (published under his Muslim name: Abu Bakr Siraj
al-Din)

Annemarie Schimmel _The Mystical Dimensions of Islam_ (a classic)
- _The Triumphal Sun_ (the most thorough study of Rumi in one volume in
any Western language)

William C. Chittick _The Sufi Path of Knowledge_ (the most groundbreaking
study of Ibn `Arabi to-date)
- _The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual Teachings of Rumi_
- _The Faith and Practice of Islam_
- _Imaginal Worlds_

Al-Ghazzali _The Faith and Practice of al-Ghazzali_ (translations of key
sections of his Ihya ulum ad-din by W. Montgomery Watt).
- _The Alchemy of Happiness_ (translation of the Kimiya-i sa'adat)

Sachiko Murata _The Tao of Islam_

R.A. Nicholson _The Mystics of Islam_ (another classic work but out-of-date)
- _Studies in Islamic Mysticism_

A.J. Arberry _The Doctrine of the Sufis_ (translation of a major Persian
Sufi manual of the 9th-10 century)

Leonard Lewisohn (ed.) _The Legacy of Medieval Persian Sufism_ (among
others, this volume contains a very interesting article by our
beloved listowner, John Walbridge, on Qutb al-Din Shirazi)
- (ed.) _Classical Persian Sufism: From its Origins to Rumi_

Toshihiko Izutsu _Sufism & Taoism: A comparative study of key
philosophical concepts_ (a great piece of comparative scholarship
containing the best contemporary philosophical commentary on Ibn `Arabi's
_Fusus al-Hikam_ in English)
- Creation and the Timeless Order of Things: Essays in Islamic Mystical
Philosophy (published by our very own Steven Scholl's _White Cloud Press_)

Seyyed Hossein Nasr _Sufi Essays_
- _Ideals & Realities of Islam_
- _Islamic Life and Thought_
- _Three Muslim Sages: Avicenna, Suhrawardi, Ibn `Arabi
- (ed.) _Islamic Spirituality I: Foundations_
_ (ed.) Islamic Spirituality II: Manifestations_
- _Traditional Islam in the Modern World_ (unfortunately this title just
went out of print from what I hear)

Margaret Smith _Readings from the Mystics of Islam_
_ _Rabi'a: And Other Women Mystics of Islam_ (contains a brilliant
chapter on Tahirih)_

Henry Corbin _Spiritual Body and Celestial Earth_
- _Creative Imagination in the Sufism of Ibn `Arabi_
- _The Man of Light in Iranian Sufism_
_ _Temple and Contemplation_
- _Swedenborg and Esoteric Islam_
- _History of Islamic Philosophy_

Ibn `Arabi _The Bezels of Wisdom (Fusus al-Hikam)_ trans by R.W.J. Austin
- _What the Seeker Needs_ trans by Tosun Bayrak al-Jerrahi and
distributed by Threshold Books (talk to Luanne Hightower)
- _Journey to the Lord of Power_ trans by Rabia Terri Harris
- _Kernel of the Kernel_ trans by Isma'il Hakki Bursevi

Titus Burckhardt _Introduction to Sufi Doctrines_ (another classic)

Any book by Kabir Helminiski and Reshad Feild....

I can go on and on and on.....

For translations of Rumi, R.A. Nicholson and A.J. Arberry are still the
best, although the language is a bit victorian in Nicholson's
case. Coleman Barks is problematic since he doesn't know either Persian or
Arabic and his translations are no more than re-workings of Nicholson.
Threshold Books, however, have some new translations of Rumi that look
really, really good -- need to talk to our very own beloved Luanne
Hightower for info. Best current translation of Hafiz is Elizabeth Gray,
jr. _The Green Sea of Heaven: Fifty ghazals from the Diwan of Hafez_
(published by Steven Scholl's _White Cloud Press_). Keep a look out for a
new anthology volume by the Paulist Press people edited by Michael Sells
and containing some valuable never-before-translated snippets of early
Persian Sufi texts by Paul Losensky.

Of course if you're also of a philosophical bent John Walbridge & Hossein
Ziai's translation of Suhrawardi's _Hikmat al-Ishraq_ (The Philosophy of
Illumination) will be coming out sometime before the end of the year.
John, is there any definite release date set on this yet?

Well, that's it for now. If you need any more suggestions let me know asap.

Nima

**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit  *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth    *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning.                 *
*                                                            *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg     *
*   and Wilhelm Dilthey                                      *
**************************************************************




=END=


From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:16:10 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re:sexual imagery not just male

    Dear all ,

    i dont mean to be dense here but what do we suppose tablets such as the
Halih , Halih , Ode of the Dove , Deathless Youth etc etc are if not Bahau
llah adopting a feminine persona . Methinks the reluctance to see this is a
residue of patriarchy and the retention of the feminine as *other *. I
suggest this gets to the heart of any claim to gender equality in the Bahai
community and that Bahau llah remains far ahead of His community in this
regard .

     The history of womens access to God has been mediated primarilly through
masculine symbols and actual male mediators . Bahau llah has powerfully
de-constructed and then *re-constructed* such access  for women in particular
and made a stunning opening that , in the vein of a "great reversal "
shatters the foundation of patriarchy  and redefines for both - all ? genders
a broader and richer understanding of what it means to be human .
    In the vein of Baha u llah saying"I am all the Prophets" might I not say
I am *women *

      warm regards ,
    Terry - the" Former Mystic from Omaha ."



=END=


Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 22:50 PST
To: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Dear Dr. Burl (entry by tropes?)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

,  Burl is inadvertently wandering into the paths of delusion.

   It is not inadvertent. Consider me a pioneer to the land of illusion, a
Quixotic Peter Rabbit in the Mr. McGregor's Garden of linguistic vegetables,
an Osterizer to the unmixed metaphores of modern communication, a
quadraphonic matrix in a discrete ambiance....

BB
>
>
>

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************




=END=


From: Stephen Bedingfield 
Subject: Taxes (was power and antiliberalism)
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 0:31:36 MST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

I wanted to pick-up on a point that Juan made regarding the tax structure.
As I recall, he has posted about a graduated tax structure, including
negative taxes, in the past with likely reference to SAQ.  Today he wrote:

> I read `Abdu'l-Baha as wanting to structure taxes and
> the law so as to encourage as low as possible a gini coefficient
> consistent with national prosperity, and to ensure that poverty is ended
> (i.e. that there is full employment and workers are paid a living wage,
> neither of which is true of the capitalist economies).

This is my read of Abdu'l-Baha as well.  But I was wondering if you could
comment on how you think Zakat will fit into the overall scheme of things.
As Zakat is to be used for the relief of the poor (IE. a social safety-net),
IMHO, I envision Zakat as a base tax used to fund our welfare programs, then
the graduated taxes are placed on top to cover all other public services,
and then Huquq to fund those desired increases in the quality of our
spiritual and material lives.  In other words, Zakat would be the main
individual taxation instrument to transfer a reasonable standard of living to
all.

Loving regards,  stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield               | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 |   the good of the world and
Canada             (403) 983-2123 |   the happiness of the nations"
email:  sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca |                  - Baha'u'llah



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 00:32:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: ``Freedom of Expression on trial in Iran" (fwd)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 12:37:39 CST
From: Payman Arabshahi 
To: adabiyat@listhost.uchicago.edu
Subject: ``Freedom of Expression on trial ..."


More details on Mr. Maroufi's arrest from Reuter ...

-Payman Arabshahi

--


Iranian editor condemned to lashes and jail

         TEHRAN, Iran (Reuter) - A Tehran court has sentenced a
leading author and magazine editor to 35 lashes and six months
imprisonment for ``publishing lies'' and insulting Iranian
supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, newspapers said Saturday.
         The daily Iran said the court also banned Abbas Maroufi from
working as a journalist and closed his literary monthly Gardoon.
         The ruling said Gardoon had insulted Khamenei in an article
allegedly comparing the Iranian leader to the late Shah of Iran
Muhammed Reza Pahlavi, who was forced into exile by the 1979
Islamic revolution, the paper said.
         Maroufi was also convicted of ``publishing lies'' in a
social psychology survey in Gardoon which concluded that
depression was the dominant mood among Iranians, the daily
Kayhan said.
         ``I was not tried. It was the freedom of expression that was
put on trial,'' Maroufi told Reuters, adding that he would
appeal the ruling.
         ``It will be the turn of other journalists and authors after
me,'' he added. ``I have not violated press regulations, and not
once have authorities warned Gardoon earlier.''
         In December, an Iranian court jailed a magazine publisher
for three months after convicting him of defaming a state-run
firm.
         Maroufi, 38, has published 10 novels, plays and collections
of short stories and helped set up a yearly literary award.
         He was also convicted for publishing sensual poems by
leading Iranian poet Simin Behbahani that the court viewed as
immoral.
         ``I have never been involved in politics; the court is
politicising literature,'' Maroufi said.




=END=


From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 00:14:43 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Sinaic Imagery

Dear friends,

It is the nature of revelation to use metaphor, allegory and parable in order
to express Eternal Truth and Reality in terms which which inhabitants of the
physical world can understand.

And there is no doubt that the male sex drive, with its derivatives of
territoriality and dominance, is a prime motivator in human affairs, Some
(WARNING--INFLAMMATORY TERM)  sociobiologists have suggested that most
institutions today are structured to mirror male dominance rituals, power
acquisition and maintenance, gatekeeping functions etc.

Therefore, it is not surprising to see imagery of male sexuality used as a
vehicle to express the power and wonder of the act of approaching the
Manifestation--or the God Head by historically primarily male mystic
movements.

However, I wonder how well this imagery resonates with the other half of
humanity. Regarding women's sex drive, many branches of the women's movement
have suggested that it is significantly different, being concerned with
establishing relationships, commitment, and is procreative.  And again, let
me say, (cf Juan's post on a historical model of women as inverted men) that
phylogenetically, the human embryo is female before the male hormones are
activated.

The global exploitation of women and children of both sexes as prostitutes,
the terrible testimony of the pathetic "comfort women" who were enslaved to
sexually service Japanese troops during World War Two, the indescribable
Bosnian war atrocities involving rape as a weapon of surpression and
genocide, the high divorce rate, the high number of poverty line households
with single female parents, the trivilization of women as sexual ornaments,
worthless past their early youth ---these current world conditions do not
pursuade me that male sexuality is necessarily a desirable paradigm to
approach our beloved Faith with.

My daughter's teen magazine, Sassy, had a little article on "When he says he
loves you forever, how long is forever for your boyfriend?"  Choices were one
week, two weeks,  a month, two months.

How long is forever for our relationship with Baha'u'llah?  If it's based on
the fickle male sex drive, I'd say its pretty short.

I'll use another metaphor myself, thanks.

Respectfully,
Sandy




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 00:39:28 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Dear Dr. Burl (entry by tropes?)
To: talisman@indiana.edu

---- Begin Forwarded Message
Dear Talismanians
I would point out that my dear friend Burl,is always attacked on
Talisman. You do not relaise how the dark secret forces are attempting
to keep Burl down.He has found out that files are being kept of his
every posting so that the first 'Show' trial of Talisman with Linda as
chief prosecutor will have Burl in the astral dock. Yet for our
edifcation he carrys on knowing that soon he will be sacrificed on the
altar of liberal-democratic conservatism and revisionist secural
sufism.All because the lady loved 'Milk Tray'and salted peanuts, Burl
gives of your wisdom as the hour of your doom approachs.
By the way Sue the lovely long suffering spouse of the former mystic,
cat and economist persecutor, the rascal Culhane of Omaha. E'Mailed me
should she bring a sleeping bag for Terry at the Mystical confeerence
as he is sleeping in the Tree House due to certain remarks he made. Sue
wondered if she had to sleep in the same place as her husband.
Naturally we would never make a lady suffer because of the misdeeds of
her husband. By the way Sue we will supply him with a sleeping bag. i
am of course praying for rain that weekend so that Terry can have a
bath while he sleeps. I forgot to mention there is no roof on the tree
house.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
PS Terry of course can still apologise to Sherman and sleep in a
regular cabin with his wife. The choice is yours Culhane be cold and
wet or repent and be warm and dry.

,  Burl is inadvertently wandering into the paths of delusion.

   It is not inadvertent. Consider me a pioneer to the land of
illusion, a
Quixotic Peter Rabbit in the Mr. McGregor's Garden of linguistic
vegetables,
an Osterizer to the unmixed metaphores of modern communication, a
quadraphonic matrix in a discrete ambiance....

BB
>
>
>

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************






=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon,  5 Feb 96 22:58:24 PST
Subject: More Internet query
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Kathie James 


Dear all,

Thanks for your help on my inquery (quoted below). I have a new
ripple to the request. Read new ripple after quote of the original
request.


>> I have an internet address here in a format I've never seen.
>> Does any one have any experience with this format? What should I
do?
>> It is copied off a business card.
>>
>> The address looks like this
>>
>>       Dialcom 141:QNI3601
>>
>>


New Ripple.

The request is from my housemate who is trying to reach a friend who
works at the World Council of Churches (WCC) in Geneva, Switzerland.
Apparently Dialcom is their in-house e-mail.

So now we are trying to find a way to contact WCC.

Also we are trying to establish e-mail with a real estate rental
place in Geneva.

Any suggestions?

Philip



-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/05/96
Time: 22:58:25

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:46:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Coles 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Brooke Rolston 
Subject: Welcoming & Affirming Gays

cc: Brooke Rolstan

My wife and I visited a number of Baha'i firesides and had positive
impressions.  However, we were recently told that our gay friends would
not be accepted into the Baha'i Faith.  Do Baha'is really exclude gays?

Steven S. Coles
Seattle, Washington State, U.S.A.





=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:20:44 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Anti-Islamism

Anti-Islamic feelings have venerable roots in the Baha'i Faith.  Some of
it is pretty reasonable, considering that Baha'is (and Babis before them)
have spent the last century and a half receiving the venom of the nastier
sort of Muslim bigotry.  I think there is a bit more of it than that,
however:

1) There is a good deal of anti-Sunni prejudice that seems to be a
carry-over from Shi'ism.  After all, Baha'is have probably suffered less
from Sunnis than from Communists.

2) It must be remembered that a good deal of the ancestry of the Iranian
Baha'i community was Jewish and Zoroastrian rather than Muslim.  Jews and
Zoroastrians have had little cause to love Islam, and their Baha'i
descendents have carried some of their distaste into the Faith.

john walbridge




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:10:55 -0700 (MST)
From: SALVATORE E INDIOGINE 
To: Cheshmak A Farhoumand 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: SALVATORE INDIOGINE


Hi! Strange that you could not send me the message.  The Computer and
Network Center at NMSU sometimes has 'problems'. :-(

My address has not changed.

> Dear Salvatore, hi again. Nice to hear from you!! Yes please do send
> information that you know, i am fascinated and so is this lady i work
> with. She just saw a program on the Discovery channel that was saying how
> when civilizations can no longer sustain themselves, they are destroyed
> somehow. We would love to hear anything you can share with us and we will
> eagerly look forward to your message and read it together.


Well, the story of Atlantis in its present form is fictional. However, its
elements are historic.  The land of Atlantis is a merger of actually two
countries (at least).

1. Atlantis is a country with a wide river, a fertile plain, mountains,
mines, and lots of other natural resources.  That is the lost
civilization of Tartessus in todays Andalusia.  This land is even mentioned
in the Bible.  The prophet Jonah took a ship for Tartessus. It was indeed at
the edge of the world. It was beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, on the Atlantic
coast of Iberia (todays Spain).

2. The island that suffered a vulcanic eruption and sunk into the sea,
destroying the splendid civilization it carried, is the Island of Thera,
named in Italian by the Venetians 'Santorini'.  It is in the Eagean sea
and a popular tourist spot.  Its beaches are black.  The island now looks
like a broken doughnut. Indeed, what is left is only the rim of the island
the rest is on the bottom of the sea that now fills the center.
Archeologists are diving in the sea to study the sunken civilization. The
explosion of the vulcano happened about 1600 BC. It was quite impressive
and coused wide distruction in the whole area.

As you can see, that is more or less what Atlantis was.  A real continent
in the middle of the Atlantic is impossible for geological reasons. It
would have also obstructed the course of the Gulf Stream. Thus, the British
Isles and North Europe would have been as frozen as Greenland and the
North-West Territory of Canada.

Hope this helps.

    Eric Indiogine (sindiogi@nmsu.edu), Dept. Civil, Agricultural,
    and Geological Engineering, New Mexico State University,
		Las Cruces, New Mexico, U.S.A.

         ## True loss is for him whose days have been ##
          ## spent in utter ignorance of his self ##
            -* Baha'u'llah, Words of Wisdom #21 *-




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:55:01 -0700
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: snavidi@tsc.hh.avnet.com (Salar Navidi)
Subject: The katab-i-iqan


We have started a deepening class on the ketab-i-iqan in Phoenix.  please
help this ignorant soul with the following:

In the beginning "IN THE NAME OF OUR LORD THE EXALTED, THE MOST HIGH" who is
this referring to?.  What is the difference between RAAB and ALLAH in Arabic?

what is your interpretation of the text "their eyes from that which
perisheth" in the first page of ketab-i-iqan?  I believe the original Farsi
text is ka-la-mat-e fa-ne-yeh.

best regards

salar





=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:04:47 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Sufis

On Feb. 4, 1996 Hannah wrote:
Many Sufis smoke marijuana in concentrated form, drink wine, and practice
other non-Islamic customs. Although some of them were truly inspired and
even earned the admiration of the Manifestation for their piety and their
spiritual
poetry, they are not upholding a lifestyle that we might wish to emulate. I
view their form of mysticism for the most part as sensual and highly physical
and am not comfortable with it.

LuAnne replies:
And many do not.  The Sufis I have encountered are sincere, conscious,
generous, restrained, loving, and more well-versed in adab than most
American Baha'is I have come in contact with.  They are my friends,
coworkers, sisters and brothers, and one is my beloved spouse.  Although
there are many "Western" versions of Sufism that ignore the Shari'ah or
don't even pretend to be Islamic, these folks pray, fast, make dhikr and
lovely music, do charitable acts and perform service.  Many of them live the
life better than I.  And some Baha'is do not observe the fast, do drink,
forget their obligatory prayers, don't attend feast, don't give to the fund,
and don't treat their families with respect, let alone behold the face of
the Beloved in the faces of their spouses, children, close friends or fellow
believers.  Please, let's be fair here.  If we all became Baha'is because of
the community of the faithful, then we might (probably not) be justified in
holding the believers of others paths up as contemptible examples.

Regards,
LuAnne




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 03:01 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Megha Shyam 
Subject: Re: Jesus Scholars Debate



Hello!

In this morning's paper here in Corvallis is a detailed list of the
activities of the seminar coming up this week.  I understand that
the conference is overbooked (over 1100 participating).  A number
of key presentations will be televised over the public access channel
in Corvallis.  I will post the list this afternoon and see if there would
be any interest if we were to videotape a few of these presentations
and share them amongst the Talismanians.


Megha Shyam






=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 03:17 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Megha Shyam 
Subject: Re. Jesus Scholars Debate



Terry Writes -

>     I am also familiar with Borg's work and admire it for different reasons
> . I might suggest his _Meeting Jesus Again For the First Time_. he will make
>the *spirit * of the Christ come alive as part of a living tradition .

>   Johnson, s work is the classic evangelical criticism of Biblical
>scholarship that has been going on for nearly a century. It is an attem,pt to
>re-assert things such as incarnation and the literalness of scripture . All
>one needs to do is read the IQAN and find Borg and Crossan engaging . Oh and
>dont confuse the Christ as logos with Jesus of Nazareth . Borg and Crossan
>are going to focus heavilly on the human rational soul of Jesus . Johnson
>could use a good lesson in Bahau lahs standpoint epistemology a la the SV 's
>Valley of Unity .

>    One can only hope that the level of scholarship and dialogue represented
>by Borg and Crossan  will someday appear in the Bahai community with respect
>to Bahau llah and thereby enrich all of our lives so much more .  In the
>meantime ; thank goodness for Talisman , warts and all .


I might add that Marcus Borg is a very articulate individual who has some
familiarity
with the Baha'i Faith.  My wife took a class from him a few years ago, and
we have
met him on many an occassion.  Ten years ago, the friends from the area
recommended
him to be a panelist at the Baha'i Peace Conference in San Francisco; the NSA
followed through, but Mr. Borg's schedule did not permit him to attend.  We
hope to
have him as a speaker in our house during the next 6 months or so talking about
his findings.   Whether one likes his views or not, he is a very likable
individual.

Megha Shyam







=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:38:33 -0800 (PST)
From: "Charles W. Cooper II" 
To: Ahang Rabbani 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: punishment for homosexuality

My I call your attention to the fact that "sodomy" can also be engaged in
between married persons (of the opposite sex of course 8-)... I think this
adds a new deminsion to this discussion. i.e. Do the laws of the Faith
proscribe particular sexual behavior between married persons?

On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Ahang Rabbani wrote:

> Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 19:24:01 -0500
> From: Ahang Rabbani 
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: punishment for homosexuality
>
> [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
>
> I really do not wish to discuss this subject out of the fear that
> there is already too much hurt feelings, but I can't help
> disagreeing with the statements that Baha'u'llah has not ordain
> punishment for homosexuality.  As I recall, about 8 months ago
> when we first discussed this, I shared a Tablet of Baha'u'llah
> quoted in the Ganjinih Hudud va Ahkam (the treasury of laws and
> ordinances) by Ishraq-Khavari.  An authoritative translation of
> this Tablet is now provided by the House of Justice in their Sept
> 11, 95 statement:
>
>     Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery....
>     He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful and committeth
>     satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me.
>
> I'm of the view that this statement could be the basis for future
> legislations by the House of Justice on the subject of
> homosexuality, as well as adultery and treason.  Of the latter
> two, He specified punishments in the Kitab-i Aqdas, but for
> "lavat" (translated technically as sodomy, though extends to all
> homosexual acts), I believe this passage can provide the House of
> Justice with basis for a whole range of punishments including
> dismissal from the community ("he is not of Me"!)
>
> Note that clearly the House of Justice presently has not
> legislated on this matter and I'm not advocating it either, but
> those that say there is no punishment outlined by Baha'u'llah for
> homosexuality may wish to consider this Tablet.
>
> regards, ahang
>



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:59:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: power and antiliberalism
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Juan Cole" , "Talisman" 


(Excerpted)  Juan writes:

> (I was routinely
>censored while working for a newspaper in Beirut; I know what censorship
>is and what it does, and I do not like it.  I think it is practiced in
>the Baha'i community).

Dear Juan,

I feel you paint with too broad a brush.  There are subtle distinctions
that require a finer touch in your portrait.  I don't believe an accurate
and comprehensive critique can be developed from a partisan perspective.
Perhaps you have been too affected by your experiences in the Middle East.

If you feel the Baha'i Administrative Order (at this time) is not
fulfilling its obligations as the governing body of the World Baha'i
Community, in terms of your relationship and other Baha'is with it,
then,  I believe it was the Master who always advised  "Radiant
Acquiescence".  I don't believe it principled to argue from some of the
things that Abdu'l-Baha recommends and while ignoring the others.
Whatever the personal difficulties one encounters they cannot be used as
a general indictment of the administrative order.  If one has not been
dealt with justly  "Be a Wronged One" as you yourself translated from
Baha'u'llah.  I'm probably overstepping the bounds of moderation in
having said that,  but this is a consultation and I ask to be permitted
to speak freely,  if I'm mistaken I ask forgiveness.

 Why do you suppose that Baha'u'llah continually stressed obedience to
governing authorities?  Many have suggested outside of the Faith that
this is "Authoritarianism".  I personally don't accept this. IMHO, one is
not going to be able to truly appreciate, the as of yet, embryonic order
of Baha'u'llah through the lens of the "French Enlightenment".  It is one
way of talking about it.  The manner in which the Administrative Order is
to be conducted is a far cry from a system that was conceived as a
"balancing of interests".  You also speak of "Rights".  Rights are a very
good thing in a world bereft of learning in the latest the message of
God.  I believe this was always the context in which Baha'u'llah and the
master approved of such things.  Rights cannot be divorced from
responsibilities without destroying the process of social enlightenment.
Where the role of the press, for example, is extolled it is the context
of discovering the true facts and reporting without bias and so forth.  I
don't believe, quietly frankly, that Baha'u'llah envisioned the current
state of affairs in media as His model.  You speak of "Freedom of
Speech";  and I see that as a very good thing when we see government as
the perennial enemy and construct as our founding fathers did (in
America)--a government restrained by the "Bill of Rights".  Your
arguments are most reminiscent of Milton, and the philosophy they imply
is virtually identical.  [Areopagitica (1644)].  Milton argued that
government was "Satanic" as this world is controlled by Satan.  Thus, a
person is not bound by any external authority in the last.  Viewing your
argument in this light one might say you feel that Satan rules every
heart in this world, and like Milton you believe in an unrestrained
freedom of the press and speech as a protection against man's essential
Satanic nature.  But Baha'u'llah has said:

"O Son of Spirit!

The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice;
turn not away there from if thou desirest Me, and
neglect it not that I may confide in thee."

IOW, God will confide in the Just.  Baha'u'llah has given clear
instructions on how we are to behave and the Master has exemplified them.

The pattern of a New World Order has been established.  As the Apostle
Paul has said, "When I was a child I spake as a child..Now it is time to
put away childish things."  One need not cling to the security blanket of
free speech and so forth in a New World Order.  If one feels insecure and
rebels at maturity--so do we all!

BTW, the biggest challenges the Faith faces are found, FMV, at the local
level where apathy is the mother of all tyrannies--a tyranny of the self
which nullifies the operations and advancement of this Cause.

Finally, why would one insist on projecting ones fears of Middle Eastern
tyranny on this evolving, organic Order?  Baha'u'llah has infused it with
His DNA pattern that is irresistible--"Day" shall not be "Followed by
night".

Richard






Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 12:52:16 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: forwarded messages
To: talisman@indiana.edu

John has been forwarding certain messages to me from Talisman.  He sent me one
from Gordon regarding the "Mr. Burl" column.  This posting has forced me to
confide in all of you some secret grumblings by our illustrious list owner.

The other night I indicated to him that I should take a present to Sherman the
Cat when I go to Bosch.  It seems only proper, of course.  I asked him for a
suggestion and he snapped back with "Listen, I set up a perfectly respectable
scholarly forum and you and your friends - a mad Englishman with an officious
cat and a squirrely satirist - make a mockery out of it."  Well, Gordon, I
guess you are going to be added to the list the next time he has another
outburst of this sort.  I don't know what can be done about it, though.
Perhaps we will have to "ASK MR. BURL."  Linda




=END=


Date: 06 Feb 96 13:20:11 EST
From: "Mary K. Radpour" <73074.1221@compuserve.com>
To: Steven Coles 
Cc: Talisman 
Subject: Re: Welcoming & Affirming Gays

Dear Steven,
	No, it is not true that your gay friends would not be accepted into the
Baha'i Faith. The Baha'i Faith is for human souls, and any human soul is
welcome.
	The Baha'i teachings do highly value chastity and a spiritual discipline;
your friends, gay or straight, who are disinclined to value such things, may not
want the Baha'i Faith. But it is not true that the Baha'i Cause does not want
them.
	As for the Baha'is themselves, they are imperfect and struggle with all
of the evils of the society in which we live, including racism, sexism, and the
materialism of the culture in which we live.. Some are homophobic. Some are not.
Baha'is communities reflect the attitudes of their members and this creates a
welcome and nurturing atmosphere in those places where the love of Baha'u'llah
and His teachings is the strongest. Where this warmth is not present, the Baha'i
Cause suffers and the believers lose their ties to the healing power of this new
Revelation from God. But we do not believe that to be a permanent condition. As
we attract new Baha'is, our communities become more vibrant and loving.  Our
hope is that newcomers will develop such a love for Baha'u'llah and His
teachings that their energy will create a warmth that will melt the ice on all
our hearts.( None of us is unaffected by the toxic nature of the superficial and
materialistic society in which we live.)
	The Baha'i Faith is a home for all. But it is not a showcase for
perfections; rather, a workshop for building community and connection. Anyone
who comes to it will quickly realize that it is not a place to rest and enjoy,
but rather a place to work at translating spiritual principles into action. If
your gay friends are up for that, they are welcome, as are you yourself.
Warmest welcome,
Mary K




=END=


Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 12:38:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: dating Ishraq

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]

Dear Juan and Sen,

Dating Tablet of Ishraqat might be a good question to ask the
World Centre.  What I'm thinking is the information that Shahrooz
Tedjarati shared a while ago about the World Centre having
located a detailed log of Mirza Aqa Jan on all Tablets (early
1860's-1892).  Presumably, this log would indicate exact day of
revelation and all others details including info to determine if
in fact was revealed in parts.

I encourage Sen to write BWC, because it will settle once and for
all the question of existence of such a logbook by Mirza Aqa Jan.
And if its existence is confirmed, we might also learn how
comfortable BWC is with sharing info from it.

Incidentally, Vahid Rafati has written a 6 part informative
article in Ahang-i Badi` (mid 1970's) on the Lawh-i Ishraqat.
Its been a few years since I looked at it, but I do recall him
not being able to date the Tablet either.  And I don't remember
any discussion about it being revealed in parts.

Perhaps Sen would be interested in leading an on-line deepening
on Ishraqat and that would encourage me to dig up Rafati's
article and post sections too.

take care, ahang.



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 14:23:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: Stephen Bedingfield 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Taxes (was power and antiliberalism)



Stephen:  Zakat or the poor-tax is ordained in the Aqdas with the
instruction that it be paid according to the law of the Qur'an.
It is actually collected as a tax by some modern Muslim states, such as
Pakistan.  The Pakistani government takes %2.5 out of one's bank account
annually for this purpose (conceiving it as a recurring tax on liquid
wealth).

I'm afraid I don't think Zakat in and of itself will solve the problems
of poverty.  A transfer of %2.5 of US liquid wealth to the poor every
year would not be insignificant, but there are about 33 million of them
in the US, in a total population of around 265 million, and even a large
sum of money would become quite small per capita at that rate.  If Farhad
Sabetan is still on perhaps he could tell us what it would come out to
per capita.

On the other hand, some of the Huquq is to be used for poor relief (which
need not mean "welfare" alone--job training, daycare, etc. would come
into it), and it is potentially another big sum of money.  Nor is there
anything in the Writings that prevents us from mandating some social
welfare functions to the civil State, to be paid for out of taxes (though
this idea has become anathema in the mean-spirited 1990s).  And, of
course, the most important thing that could be done for the poor is to
raise the minimum wage; they are mainly poor because they are not making
enough money (full-time minimum wage work in the US would come to $8,600,
which is not a living wage).


cheers   Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:52:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram 
To: jwalbrid 
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Anti-Islamism

The early Baha'i community in the US was very open to anti-Islamic
sentiments.  Indeed, Islamic religious practice was used as illustrative
of empty superstition in talks on 'comparative' religion.  Fareed also
gave anti-Islamic talks which were circulated in written form.  This is a
natural outgrowth from the established attitudes of Protestantism:
'Mohammedanism' was even worse than 'Popery' after all.  It is also a
fact that in all the studies of prejudice done in the US in the last half
century the group most disliked is Arabs (which in the popular mind
equates with 'muslim').  There is most definitely a deeply rooted
anti-Islamicism in the west which interferes with all current political,
religious, and social relations.  There is, of course, also a traditional
anti-Arabism in Persian culture.  Adding these together in the Baha'i
community lends a extra piquancy to the mix.

Jackson



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:46:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green 
To: Steven Coles 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, Brooke Rolston 
Subject: Re: Welcoming & Affirming Gays

No this is absolutely not true about all Baha'is, and in fact it runs
counter to the unifying principles of the founder of the Faith. The
comment is true principally for the person who uttered it.

On Tue, 6 Feb
1996, Steven Coles wrote:

> cc: Brooke Rolstan
>
> My wife and I visited a number of Baha'i firesides and had positive
> impressions.  However, we were recently told that our gay friends would
> not be accepted into the Baha'i Faith.  Do Baha'is really exclude gays?
>
> Steven S. Coles
> Seattle, Washington State, U.S.A.
> 
>

		      ------------------------------------------------
                     |  "O SON OF SPIRIT!                             |
Robert Green         |     My first counsel is this: Possess a pure,  |
rlg0001              |     kindly and radiant heart, that thine may   |
@jove.acs.unt.edu    |     be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable     |
                     |     and everlasting."  -  Baha'u'llah          |
                      ------------------------------------------------




=END=


Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 10:33:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani" 
To: "jwinters@epas.utoronto.ca" <"jwinters@epas.utoronto.ca"@esds01.mrgate.bmoa.
umc.dupont.com>,
        talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Schimmel

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]



I am thankful for Jonah posting a section of Annemarie Schimmel's
article on erotic mysticism and while I enjoyed the first part of
Schimmel's thoughts wanted to comment on the following paragraph:

> On the other hand, it would also be wrong to see their poetry
> exclusively as an expression of mystical theories so that every
> black curl of the beloved... is intended to mean the world of
> phenomena and every beautiful radiant face means nothing but
> the uncreated beauty of God...


Now, I realize that Schimmel is speaking of sufi writings in
general and their poetry in particular, but if we were to use the
above statement as justification that certain spiritual imageries
in Baha'u'llah's Writings is auto-erotic, etc., then I feel we're
on shaking grounds.

Its always more challenging to say what the Revelation is *not*,
than what it is.  After all, we are assured in our Writings that
every word is endowed with 72 means (or in the Qur'an that the
path to God equal the number of faithful, meaning any
interpretation goes).  But in regard to mystical Writings of
Baha'u'llah, I am of the view that they are *not* about anything
but relations with the divine -- either Baha'u'llah's or ours.
So in that sense, I disagree with applying Prof. Schimmel's
comments to the Revelation and implying that there is a
physical/literal level which these references in the Writings
needs to be understood in addition to their spiritual dimension.
I believe a literal reading of these Writings leads to utter
confusion and they need to be understood only on symbolic,
allegorical level.

Therefore, I disagree with views that certain imageries in
Baha'u'llah's Writings are auto-erotic and feel that such
characterizations are misrepresentation of the Revelation.


Now, I have no intention of dampening anyone's enthusiasm in
regard experimenting with the Maiden Writings, but I think a bit
of caution is in order not to go overboard with reading too much
into them, especially things that are most definitely not there
-- I'm not suggesting that anyone has done so, but merely sharing
my concerns.

As an example, some of the friends like to differentiate between
voices in the Text by Mirza Husayn Ali, Baha'u'llah, the Maiden,
etc.  I have never found this sort of differentiation to be
useful, nor do I subscribe to it.  To me the voice in the
Writings is always masculine and its always Baha'u'llah.  And
insisting that somehow there is a significance to this
masculinity or that in fact the voice is feminine but due to our
male prejudice we are not seeing it, I think is sub-efficient.

Said differently, experimenting with "voice" is one thing,
presenting it as article of Faith is a whole different thing.

best regards, ahang.



=END=


Date:         Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:09:40 EST
From: Lawren Bale 
Subject:      Re: Continuing Dialogue w Bruce B.
To: Multiple recipients of list G-ETHIC 

Dear Bruce B. and J. Coleman

                 I would think that by now you two would have got the
message. At least from my perspectice, what you two have accomplished
is not dialogue and hardly serves the aims and purposes of the Global
Ethic list, except in the negative sense that it demonstrates how far
we have to go before dialogical dialogue is the norm on this list.

I sent out a copy of the dialogue decalogue a couple of weeks ago, and
I do wish that Jack would read it over a little more carefully before
continuing to tell Buddhists what their tradition really means. What
possible good does it do reject and totally reinterpret the religious
beliefs of virtually every Buddhist on the planet? None, other than to
support your personal perspective. I don't know, nor do I care to know,
if your positions are actually the only alternatives open for Baha'is.

Rather than telling me what to think or how to believe, would we all not
be better served if we discussed the means by which we can work toward
developing a more compassionate, nuturing and loving relationship with
each other, and with the rather small planet that we must learn how to share?

lawren



*************************************************************************
*     From the Cyber-Niche of:        Lawren Bale, Ph.D.               *
*     e-mail: bale@vm.temple.edu                                     *
*     www mail: bale@astro.ocis.temple.edu                         *
*     WWW: http://astro.temple.edu/~dialogue                     *
****************************************************************



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 14:37:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram 
To: talisman 
Subject: RE: Sexual Imagery not just Male

The capitalization used in published writings, including Guardian's
letters, was done to standards adopted by editorial committees.  It would
be unwise to infer anything about SE's intent from a published text's
style.  The original text would need to be used.  Original G's letters
and translations are much less free with capitals generally and there
is certainly no consistent use of them that would allow us to easily draw
positive conclusions about referents.

I think some of the problems here are arising from expecting rhetorical
devices to have direct relationships to reality.  All discourse  uses
understood figures to aid communication.  In many languages/cultures
certain characteristics are gender referenced.  It it also possible to use
these references oppositionally to established gender roles.  Their use does
not necessarily imply anything specific in respect of understanding
gender, they may be used simply to put over another point.  However,
discourse is polysemous by nature and more than one thing may be
happening.  To give another example.  When the writings refer to wolves in
rhetorical figures, I do not suppose that this tells us anything about
the nature of the animal but rather invokes a set of concepts that relate
to expounding on something else.

On the general theme, I think it should be noted how BH incorporated
traditionally feminine cultural traits into the interaction with those
around him:  e.g. veiling in public, revealing from behind a screen.  And
how these feminine attributes served to mark the power of God in the
Manifestation.

I don't have time to go into it in detail, but I must register a protest
to the stereotypical linking of concepts such as territoriality to
maleness, and nurturing to femaleness in some of these posts.  This is
scientistic balderdash.  (unfortunately brevity encourages immoderate
speech)

Jackson



=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Tue,  6 Feb 96 14:57:25 PST
Subject: RE: Bosch
To: talisman@indiana.edu, LuAnne Hightower 


On Tue, 6 Feb 1996 14:30:03 -0500  LuAnne Hightower wrote:

>>From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
 Are you going to produce a baby at the Conference?  Don't
>>you think you have to give this child a name that evokes an image
of Talisman?
>>Why don't we post a competition for your baby's name?



>P.S. - the dear child's last name will be Goldberg.  I tried to get
my
>husband to change his last name along with me to GOONberg, but to no
avail.
>
>Have at it -
>LuAnne
>

GOONbery on the way to GOOMBAH?







-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/06/96
Time: 14:57:26

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 12:25 PST
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: forwarded messages
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

  According to Linda, John Walbridge snapped:
 "Listen, I set up a perfectly respectable
>scholarly forum and you and your friends - a mad Englishman with an officious
>cat and a squirrely satirist - make a mockery out of it."

Dear Linda:
Please provide information on how I can subscribe to PRSF ("Perfectly
Respectable Scholarly Forum")
I was only aware of Talisman, and did not know that John had set up another
list especially designed for mockery.  Obviously, I would love to participate.

Respectfully,

Burl R. Barer

PS: What is the Englishman mad about?

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************




=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Tue,  6 Feb 96 15:03:18 PST
Subject: Re: Jesus Scholars Debate
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Megha Shyam 

Sounds fascinating. I'd be interested and happy to send $ for copies.
What a great program. Shame public tv isn't involved.
On Tue, 6 Feb 96 03:01 PST  Megha Shyam wrote:
>
>
>Hello!
>
>In this morning's paper here in Corvallis is a detailed list of the
>activities of the seminar coming up this week.  I understand that
>the conference is overbooked (over 1100 participating).  A number
>of key presentations will be televised over the public access
channel
>in Corvallis.  I will post the list this afternoon and see if there
would
>be any interest if we were to videotape a few of these presentations
>and share them amongst the Talismanians.
>
>
>Megha Shyam
>
>
>

-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/06/96
Time: 15:03:18

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 14:42:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole 
To: Steven Coles 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, Brooke Rolston 
Subject: Re: Welcoming & Affirming Gays



Dear Mr. Coles:


The current official position on homosexuality in the Baha'i Faith is
laid out in a letter of the Universal House of Justice, the international
governing body of the religion, which I append for your information:




To the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States

Dear Baha'i friends,

The Universal House of Justice has considered your letters of August 27,
1993, and September 19, 1994, in which you describe the impact of the
changing sexual mores and the public debate on homosexuality of some of
the members of the American Baha'i community who are homosexuals.

We are instructed to provide the following guidance in response to the
National Spiritual Assembly's requests for a clarification of the Baha'i
law on homosexual practices and for assistance in guiding the believers.

It is important to understand that there is a difference between the
Baha'i attitude toward, on the one hand, the condition of homosexuality
and those who are affected by it and, on the other, the practice of
homosexual relations by members of the Baha'i community.

As you know, the Baha'i Faith strongly condemns all blatant acts of
immorality, and it includes among them the expression of sexual love
between individuals of the same sex.  With regard to homosexual
practices, Baha'u'llah, in the _Kitab-i-Aqdas_, paragraph 107, and
Questions and Answers, number 49, forbids paederasty and sodomy.  The
following extract from one of His Tablets reveals the strength of His
condemnation:

"Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery.  Avoid them, O
concourse of the faithful.  By the righteousness of God!  Ye have been
called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil
passions.  This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you,
could ye but perceive it.  He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful
and committeth satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me.  Unto this beareth
witness every atom, pebble, tree and fruit, and beyond them this
ever-proclaiming, truthful and trustworthy Tongue."

In a letter dated March 26, 1950, written on his behalf, Shoghi Effendi,
the authorized interpreter of the Baha'i Teachings, further explicates
the Baha'i attitude toward homosexuality.  It should be noted that the
Guardian's interpretation of this subject is based on his infallible
understanding of the Texts.  It represents both a statement of moral
principle and unerring guidance to Baha'is who are homosexuals. The
letter states:

"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the
same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong.  To say that
it is ideal is no excuse.  Immorality of every sort is really forbidden
by Baha'u'llah, and homosexual relationships He look upon as such,
besides being against nature.

"To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul.  But
through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined
effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap."

It is evident, therefore, that the prohibition against Baha'is engaging
in homosexual behavior is an explicit teaching of the Cause.  The
Universal House of Justice is authorized to change or repeal its own
legislation as conditions change, thus providing Baha'i law with an
essential element of flexibility, but it cannot abrogate or change any of
the laws which are explicitly laid down in the sacred Texts. It follows,
then, that the House of Justice has no authority to change this clear
teaching on homosexual practice.

You mention that concern has been expressed by some of the friends that
the unique identity of homosexual Baha'is is not sufficiently appreciated
by the Baha'i community.  It is important to reflect on the fact that the
Writings of the Faith not only acknowledge that each individual has a
God-given identity, but they also set out the means by which this
identity can achieve its highest development and fulfillment.

Baha'u'llah attests that through the Teachings of the Manifestations of
God "every man will advance and develop until he attaineth the station at
which he can manifest all the potential forces with which his inmost true
self hath been endowed."  'Abdu'l-Baha observes that should man's
"natural qualities...be used and displayed in an unlawful way, they
become blameworthy."

Shoghi Effendi, in a letter dated May 25, 1936, written on his behalf,
identifies man's "true self" with "his soul."  In describing the nature
of "man's inner spiritual self or reality," he notes that the "two
tendencies for good or evil are but manifestations of a single reality of
self," and that the self "is capable of development in either way."
Underlining the importance of education to the actualization of man's
potential, the Guardian concludes:

"All depends fundamentally on the training or education which man
receives.  Human nature is made up of possibilities both for good and
evil.  True religion can enable it to soar in the highest realm of the
spirit, while its absence can, as we already witness around us, cause it
to fall to the lowest depths of degradation and misery."

As a framework within which to consider the subject of homosexuality, it
is important to acknowledge, with all due humility, that basic to the
Baha'i Teachings is the concept that it is only God Who knows the purpose
of human life, and Who can convey this to us through His Manifestations.

A distinguishing feature of human existence it that we have been given
the
capacity to know and love God and to consciously obey Him.  Thus we also
have the converse:  the ability to turn away from God, to fail to love
Him and to disobey Him.  Indeed, left to himself, man is naturally
inclined toward evil.  Human beings need not only assistance in defining
acceptable behavior of one person toward another, but also guidance which
will help them to refrain from doing that which is spiritually damaging
to themselves.

By responding to the Message of the Manifestation of God we learn how we
should live and draw on the spiritual strength which comes with it.
Through studying the Word of God and training ourselves to follow His
commandments, we rise to the full stature that He has designed for us.

The material world, in relation to the spiritual world, is a world of
imperfections.  It is full of dangers and difficulties which have been
greatly aggravated by man's neglect and misuse of his responsibilities.
Human society itself, which exists in the material world, is in
disastrous disarray.

Our appetites and inclinations are strongly influenced by the condition
of our physical makeup, and our bodies are in varying degrees of health,
depending upon factors such as heredity, environment, nourishment and our
own treatment of them.  Genetic variations occur, producing conditions
which can create problems for the individual.  Some conditions are of an
emotional or psychological nature, producing such imbalances as quickness
to anger, recklessness, timorousness, and so forth; others involve purely
physical characteristics, resulting not only in unusual capacities but
also in handicaps or diseases of various kinds.

Whether deficiencies are inborn or are acquired, our purpose in this
life is to overcome them and to train ourselves in accordance with the
pattern that is revealed to us in the divine Teachings.

The view that homosexuality is a condition that is not amenable to change
is to be questioned by Baha'is.  There are, of course, many kinds and
degrees of homosexuality, and overcoming extreme conditions is sure to be
more difficult than overcoming others.  Nevertheless, as noted earlier,
the Guardian has stated that "through the advice and help of doctors,
through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can
oversome this handicap."

The statistics which indicate that homosexuality is incurable are
undoubtedly distorted by the fact that many of those who overcome the
problem never speak about it in public, and others solve their problems
without even consulting professional counselors.

Nevertheless there are undoubtedly cases in which the individual finds
himself (or herself) unable to eliminate a physical attraction to
members of the same sex, even though he succeeds in controlling his
behavior.  This is but one of the many trials and temptations to which
human beings are subject in this life.  For Baha'is, it cannot alter the
basic concept taught by Baha'u'llah, that the kind of sexuality purposed
by God is the love between a man and a woman, and that its primary (but
not its only) purpose is the bringing of children into this world and
providing them with a loving and protective environment in which they can
be reared to know and love God.

If, therefore, a homosexual cannot overcome his or her condition to the
extent of being able to have a heterosexual marriage, he or she must
remain single, and abstain from sexual relations.  These are the same
requirements as for a heterosexual person who does not marry.  While
Baha'u'llah encourages the believers to marry, it is important to note
that marriage is by no means an obligation.  It is for the individual to
decide whether he or she wishes to lead a family life or to live in a
state of celibacy.

The condition of being sexually attracted to some object other than a
mature member of the opposite sex, a condition of which homosexuality is
but one manifestation, is regarded by the Faith as a distortion of true
human nature, as a problem to be overcome, no matter what specific
physical or psychological condition may be the immediate cause.  Any
Baha'is who suffer from such a disability should be treated with
understanding, and should be helped to control and overcome it.  All of
us suffer from imperfections which we must struggle to overcome, and we
all need one another's understanding and patience.

To regard homosexuals with prejudice and disdain would be entirely
against the spirit of Baha'i Teachings.  The doors are open for all
humanity to enter the Cause of God, irrespective of their present
circumstances; this invitation applies to homosexuals as well as to any
others who are engaged in practices contrary to the Baha'i Teachings.

Associated with this invitation is the expectation that all believers
will make a sincere and persistent effort to eradicate those aspects of
their conduct which are not in conformity with Divine Law. It is through
such adherence to the Baha'i Teachings that a true and enduring unity of
the diverse elements of the Baha'i community is achieved and safeguarded.

When a person wishes to join the Faith and it is generally known that he
or she has a problem such as drinking, homosexuality, taking drugs,
adultery, etc., the individual should be told in a patient and loving way
of the Baha'i Teachings on these matters.  If it is later discovered that
a believer is violating Baha'i standards, it is the duty of the Spiritual
Assembly to determine whether the immoral conduct is flagrant and can
bring the name of the Faith into disrepute, in which case the Assembly
must take action to counsel the believer and require him or her to make
every effort to mend his ways.

If the individual fails to rectify his conduct in spite of repeated
warnings, sanctions should be imposed.  Assemblies, of course, must
exercise care not to pry into the private lives of the believers to
ensure that they are behaving properly, but should not hesitate to take
action in cases of blatant misbehavior.

The Spiritual Assemblies should, to a certain extent, be forbearing in
the matter of people's moral conduct, such as homosexuality, in view of
the terrible deterioration of society in general. The Assemblies must
also bear in mind that while awareness of contemporary social and moral
values may well enhance their understanding of the situation of the
homosexual, the standard which they are called upon to uphold is the
Baha'i standard.  A flagrant violation of this standard disgraces the
Baha'i community in its own eyes even if the surrounding society finds
the transgression tolerable.

With regard to the organized network of homosexual Baha'is mentioned in
your letter, the Universal House of Justice has instructed us to say
that, while there is an appropriate role in the Baha'i community for
groups of individuals to come together to help each other to understand
or deal with certain problem situations, according the the Baha'i
Teachings there can be no place in our community for groups which
actively promote a style of life that is contrary to the teachings of the
Cause.

It should be understood that the homosexual tendencies of some
individuals do not entitle them to an identity setting them apart from
others.  Such individuals share with every other Baha'i the
responsibility to adhere to the laws and principles of the Faith as well
as the freedom to exercise their administrative rights.

The Universal House of Justice will pray that, armed with the guidance
contained in this letter, the National Spiritual Assembly will act with
love, sensitivity and firmness to assist the believers both to gain a
deeper understanding of their true and ennobling purpose in life and to
make a strong and determined effort to overcome every handicap to their
spiritual development.

The Universal House of Justice
Department of the Secretariat
September 11, 1995






On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Steven Coles wrote:

> cc: Brooke Rolstan
>
> My wife and I visited a number of Baha'i firesides and had positive
> impressions.  However, we were recently told that our gay friends would
> not be accepted into the Baha'i Faith.  Do Baha'is really exclude gays?
>
> Steven S. Coles
> Seattle, Washington State, U.S.A.
> 
>
>



=END=


From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:51:32 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: resend of sinaic imagery-sorry

Dear friends,

Sorry for the resend of this post.

Sandy



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:03:35 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: RE. Bosch, statement from Sherman.
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Derar talismanians and expectant mother.
Our beloved leader Sherman has given permission to name the child after
him.
Sherman's humble scribe
Derek Cockshut



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:01:17 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: forwarded messages
To: talisman@indiana.edu

---- Begin Forwarded Message

  According to Linda, John Walbridge snapped:
 "Listen, I set up a perfectly respectable
>scholarly forum and you and your friends - a mad Englishman with an
officious
>cat and a squirrely satirist - make a mockery out of it."

Dear Linda:
Please provide information on how I can subscribe to PRSF ("Perfectly
Respectable Scholarly Forum")
I was only aware of Talisman, and did not know that John had set up
another
list especially designed for mockery.  Obviously, I would love to
participate.

Respectfully,

Burl R. Barer

PS: What is the Englishman mad about?

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************
My dear Linda
Can I go out and play with my best friend Burl on John's new list PRSF.

Kindest regards
Derek Cockshut
In response to Burl's we are mad about the decline of the Empire, the
devaluation of the pound, Princess Di not or doing her duty, Charles's
shorted sightedness and the fact one can not get decent fish and chips
in the USA. Also that Talisman has not yet adopted 'The Adam Smith Day'
onto the Baha'i calendoor, that is something to campaign for chaps
freedom for Economists in the Baha'i community.





=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:25:05 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu, burlb@mail.bmi.ne
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Dear Dr. Burl

Dear Dr. Burl,

A fine young Baha'i woman in our community has been dating Ishraq for
several months now.  In fact I saw them in a cafe just last week in
possession of 'A Fortress for Well Being.'   As you are the Doctor of Adab,
could you give me some suggestions for a posting that would appropriately
suggest that Ahang and others (I don't wish to get into the entire
homosexuality thread again) give these two souls some space?

Concerned in New England




=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:40:24 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alex Tavangar 
Subject: Re: Anti-Islamism

>This is a
>natural outgrowth from the established attitudes of Protestantism:
>'Mohammedanism' was even worse than 'Popery' after all.  It is also a
>fact that in all the studies of prejudice done in the US in the last half
>century the group most disliked is Arabs (which in the popular mind
>equates with 'muslim').  There is most definitely a deeply rooted
>anti-Islamicism in the west which interferes with all current political,
>religious, and social relations.  There is, of course, also a traditional
>anti-Arabism in Persian culture.  Adding these together in the Baha'i
>community lends a extra piquancy to the mix.
>
>Jackson
>


This statement is very true.  One must also take into account other more
concrete (as opposed to irrational prejudices) reasons for aversion towards
anything.  Many if not most persian Baha'is have Moslem family members whom
they love very much.  The aversion one might show towards a spider may not
stem solely from arachnophobia, but may be a sign of having been bitten once
or twice.  The romantic notions of the mo'azin calling the believers to
prayer fade very quickly when the minaret from which the call is raised is
stained with the blood of your loved ones.  One might ask whether the
feeling of jews about the German state in the 30's and 40's is due to
carried-over historic prejudices or stem from concrete and personal experiences.

A distinction must also be made between the religion of Islam in its ideal
form and the practiced form (the fruit of a tree that ceased to be the
repository of the Divine Will after 1844).

This issue obviously touched a sensitive nerve in me but I don't like to see
the western prejudices vis-a-vis Islam equated with discomforts of some
Baha'is due to very fresh wounds inflicted by the followers of this
wonderful religion.

Our task is of course to heed the councils of the Blessed Beauty, bandage
our wounds, love and pray for all and spread the Divine fragrance throughout
the world.

Best Regards,

Alex B. Tavangar




=END=


From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:46:30 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Continuing Dialogue with Bruce B.

Well, I guess I will have to agree with Eric that Bruce has been treated
rather badly by Baha'is.  We are new at interfaith dialogue, and I suppose
that some of us have not yet figured out that we can't just go around telling
people of other traditions that they have got it all wrong, that our religion
is "True" and theirs is false and misguided.  This kind of thing offends me
just as much as it does Bruce.  I don't see how this kind of arrogance gets
substituted for tolerance in Baha'i circles.  I guess we just have a lot to
learn.

Tony



=END=


From: Stephen Bedingfield 
Subject: Re: Taxes (was power and antiliberalism)
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 16:36:18 MST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

Juan:  Thanks for your comments regarding Zakat and noting for readers that
it is "the poor-tax".  This may preempt Burl from copiously quoting from his
Talismanic dictionary about Zakats and Zadogs, raining down, etc   :-)

> Stephen:  Zakat or the poor-tax is ordained in the Aqdas with the
> instruction that it be paid according to the law of the Qur'an.
> It is actually collected as a tax by some modern Muslim states, such as
> Pakistan.  The Pakistani government takes %2.5 out of one's bank account
> annually for this purpose (conceiving it as a recurring tax on liquid
> wealth).
>
> I'm afraid I don't think Zakat in and of itself will solve the problems
> of poverty.  A transfer of %2.5 of US liquid wealth to the poor every
> year would not be insignificant, but there are about 33 million of them
> in the US, in a total population of around 265 million, and even a large
> sum of money would become quite small per capita at that rate.

Actually, Questions and Answers #107 states, "And in the matter of Zakat,
We have likewise decreed that you should follow what hath been revealed in
the Qur'an."  The references I looked up in the Qur'an, and I may be mistaken,
do not refer to the amount paid, but praises those who pay their Zakat and
instructs on the deposition of Zakat (I don't have my Qur'an with me).  The
notes in the Aqdas says that the Qur'an does not instruct on limits, rates,
types of income assessed and so forth.

Therefore, it is conceivable that Zakat could be set at a rate that would
take care of the welfare needs, say 10-12%, or even a graduated Zakat.  In
Canada, like the States, we are in an aweful mess with respect to government
deficits and accummulated debt.  The mean-spirited blame it on the poor
when in fact it is simply very poor management of the labour and capital,
and I dare say, the spiritual resources of the country.  My evidence: in
Canada we have a $5 billion operating surplus and a $35 billion deficit
based on interest payments.  Strictly bad management and democracy, the
worst of all political systems, except for all the rest (Churchill).  Not to
get too far off on a tangent, but part of the reason for the poor track
record, IMHO, is that there is not a LINK between the taxpayer and the
recipient of social welfare benefits.  There needs to be a link so that
the taxpayer will know that his taxes specifically provide for these
social benefits.  I believe that Zakat fits the bill. Then we can add other
socially constructive taxes on top as necessary, but I feel that Huquq
will take care of the majority of socially constructive and enhancing
expenditures in the future, the capital works so to speak.

> On the other hand, some of the Huquq is to be used for poor relief (which
> need not mean "welfare" alone--job training, daycare, etc. would come
> into it), and it is potentially another big sum of money.  Nor is there
> anything in the Writings that prevents us from mandating some social
> welfare functions to the civil State, to be paid for out of taxes (though
> this idea has become anathema in the mean-spirited 1990s).  And, of
> course, the most important thing that could be done for the poor is to
> raise the minimum wage; they are mainly poor because they are not making
> enough money (full-time minimum wage work in the US would come to $8,600,
> which is not a living wage).

Agreed with respect to Huquq and your comments about social justice.
All part of a holistic approach.

Loving regards,

stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield               | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 |   the good of the world and
Canada             (403) 983-2123 |   the happiness of the nations"
email:  sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca |                  - Baha'u'llah



=END=

From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 19:35:16 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Encyclopedia Iranica

Dear Talismanians:
   I have recently stumbled on an opportunity to purchase volumes of the
Encyclopedia Iranica for Talismanians at a significant discount--10% for
individuals and 20% for institutions.  (And if you know how expensive these
volumes are, that ain't chicken feed.)
    So, if anyone wants to take advantage of this opportunity, e-mail me
privately and I will set up the deal for you.

Tony



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 15:08:30 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: "Richard C. Logan"  (by way of asadighi@ptialaska.
Subject: Re: power and antiliberalism

     The House of Justice feels that Baha'i scholars must beware
of the temptations of intellectual pride.  Abdu'l-Baha has
warned the friends in the West that they would be subjected to
intellectual tests, and the Guardian reminded them of this
warning.  There are many aspects of western thinking which have
been exalted to a status of unassailable principle in the general
mind, that time may well show to have been erroneous or, at
least, only partially true.  Any Baha'i who rises to eminence in
academic circles will be exposed to the powerful influence of
such thinking.  One of the problems of modern times is the degree
to which the different disciplines have become specialized and
isolated from one another.  Thinkers are now faced with a
challenge to achieve a synthesis, or at least a coherent
correlation, of the vast amount of knowledge that has been
acquired during the past century.  The Baha'is must be aware of
this factor and of the moderation and all-embracing nature of
this Revelation....

     In the application of the social laws of the Faith, most of
the difficulties can be seen to arise not only from outright
disobedience, but also from the actions of those who, while
careful to observe the letter of the law, try to go as far as it
will permit them away from the spirit which lies at its heart.  A
similar tendency can be noted among some Baha'i scholars. The
great advances in knowledge and understanding in the vital field
of Baha'i scholarship will be made by those who, while well
versed in their subjects and adhering to the principles of
research, are also thoroughly imbued with love for the Faith and
the determination to grow in the comprehension of its teachings.
          (23 March 1983 on behalf of the Universal House of
Justice to            an individual believer)



Is this relevant?





=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 14:30:03 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: RE: Bosch

Dear Ones,


Allah-u-Abha. With permission of the esteemed author, I hereby forward this
message to this here " perfectly respectable scholarly forum" for perfectly
respectable feedback.

>From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
>Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 12:17:04 EWT
>X-To: PO3::"lua@sover.net"
>Subject: RE: Bosch
>To: lua@sover.net
>
>Oh, good, Luanne.  Are you going to produce a baby at the Conference?  Don't
>you think you have to give this child a name that evokes an image of Talisman?
>Why don't we post a competition for your baby's name?  I consider it the first
>Talisman baby.  Don't you.  Steve Scholl's doesn't count because he didn't give
>birth!  Love, Linda
>

P.S. - the dear child's last name will be Goldberg.  I treid to get my
husband to change his last name along with me to GOONberg, but to no avail.

Have at it -
LuAnne




=END=


From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jarmstro@sun1.iusb.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Sexual Imagery not just Male
Date: 06 Feb 1996 19:30:20 GMT

> the stereotypical linking of concepts such as territoriality to
> maleness, and nurturing to femaleness in some of these posts.  This is
> scientistic balderdash.

I would like to add my voice to this view.  When I took a course in Social
Research Methodology about 10 years ago, we spent much of our time analyzing
papers advocating such views and found that in most of them there were such
serious flaws that such conclusions were unwarranted.  Using these same
techniques, it can be proven that men are inherently liberal and innovative,
and woman inherently conservative and reactionary.

Don C



He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing



=END=


[end of 2/6/96 session]


Talisman emails received 2/7/96
---------------------------------------------------------


From: "K. Paul Johnson" 
Subject: Seven centers?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 12:48:59 EST

A question occurs to me as I start to write my book on Edgar
Cayce.  He specifies locations of seven energy centers in the
body, which he equates with endocrine glands.  Blavatsky and
Gurdjieff both teach of seven centers, but going further back
than that isn't too clear.  Corbin, in The Man of
Light...(which I haven't obtained yet) talks about various
Shi'a and Sufi systems, some of which are septenary.
Presumably the Isma'ili, who had seven of everything, had a
chakra system of seven.

Can any of you Islamicists point me to the presumed origin of
septenary energy center theory?  It seems pretty definitely to
be of Islamic origin, but beyond that, ??

Thanks.



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:06:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu,
        Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no
Subject: Reuters 2/5/96 (fwd)


>    'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/02/05
>  1. 14:33 IRAN'S PARLIAMENT ELECTIONS
>  2. 10:28 DEPARTURE OF KEY TAJIK MINISTER SUITS RAKHMONOV
>  3. 07:46 IRAN'S DEBT AMOUNTS TO $30.6 BILLION -IRNA
>  4. 02:51 PRESS DIGEST - BAHRAIN - FEB 5
>
>=START=   XMT: 14:33 Mon Feb 05  EXP: 4 :00 Thu Feb 08
>
>
> 5,121 candidates for Iran's parliament elections
>    TEHRAN, Feb 5 (Reuter) - A total of 5,121 candidates have registered to run
>in elections on March 8 for Iran's 270-seat parliament, Tehran radio said on
>Monday night.
>    It said 914 candidates registered to run for 30 seats in the capital Tehran
>while 30 people are contesting four seats designated for non-Moslems.
>    A spokesman for an opposition grouping told Reuters that 13 nationalist and
>liberal Islamic candidates had registered to run. They are mostly from the
>illegal but tolerated Freedom Movement and the National Front who had boycotted
>three earlier elections to protest against what they say is a lack of freedom
>to campaign.
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 10:28 Mon Feb 05  EXP: 0 :00 Thu Feb 08
>
>
> Departure of key Tajik minister suits Rakhmonov
>    By Douglas Busvine
>    DUSHANBE, Feb 5 (Reuter) - Tajik President Imomali Rakhmonov appears to
>have defused a mutiny by two army commanders -- and also rid himself of an aide
>whose grip on power might eventually have threatened his own, diplomats said on
>Monday.
>    Rakhmonov ditched his right-hand man, first deputy prime minister
>Makhmadsayid Ubaidullayev, bowing to demands by two mutinous commanders who
>took up arms to protest at the monopolisation of power and money by his
>southern Kulyabi clan.
>    On the face of it, it appeared a huge concession to the two warlords,
>Colonel Makhmoud Khudoyberdyev and Ibodullo Baimatov, whom Rakhmonov had
>accused of conducting a ``well-planned coup attempt.''
>    But by dumping Ubaidullayev he has managed to wriggle free of an
>overbearing figure who controlled security and defence, and Tajikistan's
>lucrative aluminium and cotton businesses.
>    Ubaidullayev's grip on these levers of economic power had rankled with
>Khudoyberdyev, whose base in Kurgan-Tyube is in the heart of the cotton belt,
>and Baimatov, former mayor of the aluminium town Tursunzade.
>    ``If he's got the wit to handle this properly, this could be the best thing
>that ever happened to him. He could become a president and not a figurehead,''
>one Western diplomat said of Ubaidullayev's departure.
>    Politics in this mountain state bordering Afghanistan and China are fickle
>-- dominated by personal, local and ethnic rivalries which can shift with
>bewildering speed.
>    Apart from his growing strength inside the country, Ubaidullayev had
>angered big power Russia for pursuing his own agenda at U.N. peace talks with
>the Islamic and democratic opposition driven out of Tajikistan in 1992 after
>briefly holding Dushanbe.
>    When he stepped down, Ubaidullayev said was going ``with a clear conscience
>and clean hands.''
>    On Monday, Khudoyberdyev pulled his troops back to barracks, meeting
>conditions in exchange for the resignation of Ubaidullayev, Rakhmonov's chief
>of staff and the governor of the region around Kurgan-Tyube.
>    But only one of the jobs was filled, with Rakhmonov issuing a decree
>appointing parliament's first deputy speaker Abdumajid Dostiyev as the regional
>governor.
>    Diplomats in Dushanbe, which relaxed on Monday after going onto a near
>war-footing last week, said Rakhmonov would not let one man control as much
>power again as he allowed Ubaidullayev.
>    ``Rakhmonov may well try and diversify this post, rather than put all his
>eggs in one basket again,'' one diplomat commented, but no names have yet been
>linked to the positions.
>    Rakhmonov, a 43-year-old former collective farm manager, does not have a
>reputation as an astute political strategist.
>    But he has scored some successes and has the backing of Russia, which wants
>to keep Tajikistan as a buffer state against political Islam and the
>destabilisation generated by the conflict in Afghanistan.
>    Rakhmonov appeared to lose his nerve after the January 21 murder of
>Tajikistan's highest Moslem spiritual leader, railing against countries like
>Iran who he said backed Islamic terror.
>    He then disappeared for several days and was said by his spokesman to be
>too shocked by the killing to return to work.
>    But his resolve appears to have been strengthened by visits from senior
>Russian officials, including new Foreign Minister Yevgeny Primakov and Defence
>Minister Pavel Grachev.
>    After the warlord uprising 10 days ago, Russia weighed in with diplomatic
>help for Rakhmonov. National security adviser Yuri Baturin flew into Dushanbe
>and commanders of Russia's 201st division -- on peacekeeping duty here -- also
>played a key role.
>    Rakhmonov has extracted an offer from Khudoyberdyev to send troops from his
>first army brigade to Tavildara, 200 km (125 miles) east of Dushanbe, to quell
>a new outbreak of fighting with Islamic rebels who took over the region late
>last year.
>    Rakhmonov is also popular with the west, as he is the only politician in
>the country to articulate any kind of policy to start up economic reforms and
>attract investment into the poorest of the former Soviet republics.
>    A five-year economic strategy published late last year sets privatisation
>as a policy target, and Tajikistan is in advanced talks with the International
>Monetary Fund on receiving $22 million in support for its weak nine-month-old
>currency.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 07:46 Mon Feb 05  EXP: 7 :00 Thu Feb 08
>
>
> Iran's debt amounts to $30.6 billion -IRNA
>     DUBAI, Feb 5 (Reuter) - Iran's principal debt and interest amounted to
>$30.6 billion by September of 1995, the official Iranian News Agency IRNA said
>on Monday.
>    ``The total amount of Iran's foreign debts and their future interests at
>the end of the Iranian month of Shahrivar, September 22, 1995, amounted to
>$30.6 billion,'' it said quoting a Central Bank publication.
>     The Islamic Republic's total foreign debt stood at $23.4 billion it said,
>an implied reference to principal debt.
>    The agency put the country's short-term debt at $3.26 billion and medium
>and long-term debt at $20.14 billion by September 22, 1995.
>    Central Bank governor Mohsen Nourbakhsh said last month Iran's total
>financial obligations to foreign countries within its current five-year plan
>which ends in the year 2000 are $33 billion, of which $17 billion is
>rescheduled.
>    The Iranian parliament in January approved a $78 billion annual budget that
>is less dependent on oil revenue.
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 02:51 Mon Feb 05  EXP: 2 :00 Thu Feb 08
>
>
> PRESS DIGEST - Bahrain - Feb 5
>    MANAMA, Feb 5 (Reuter) - These are some of the leading stories in the
>Bahraini press on Monday. Reuters has not verified these stories and does not
>vouch for their accuracy:
>    AL-AYAM
>    - Iraq's Saddam chairs a meeting of economic experts.
>    - Iran doubled military capability, threatens navigation.
>    - Christopher starts new tour in the Middle East.
>    - Oil income to remain the main source of Gulf Arab income.
>    AKHBAR AL-KHALEEJ
>    - Agreement for National Insurance Company to go public.
>    - U.S. alarmed at growing Iran military might.
>    - Iraq oil talks with U.N. start on Tuesday.
>    - British air steward in suicide at hotel.
>    GULF DAILY NEWS
>    - The big freeze. Clinton urged to declare emergency.
>    - Premier praises strong Bahrain links with Kuwait.
>    - Divorce will cost Prince Charles $10.5 million.
>    - Air steward in suicide at hotel.
>    - Higher oil prices fuel 6.5 percent growth in UAE.
>    - Top Bahrain insurance company going public.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:09:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Reuters 2/6/96 (fwd)


>    'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/02/06
>  1. 13:33 IRANIAN MINISTER IN TALKS WITH AFGHAN LEADERS
>  2. 13:28 IRANIAN FAMILY OF SEVEN DIES IN APARTMENT FIRE
>  3. 08:29 IRAN POLICE SEIZE TWO TONNES OF OPIUM, HOLD 35
>  4. 03:02 UN MUST CONSIDER CULTURE BEFORE JUDGING IRAN- PAPER
>
>
>=START=   XMT: 13:33 Tue Feb 06  EXP: 3 :00 Fri Feb 09
>
>
> Iranian minister in talks with Afghan leaders
>    ISLAMABAD, Feb 6 (Reuter) - Iranian deputy foreign minister Alaeddin
>Boroujerdi met Afghan government leaders in Kabul on Tuesday and discussed with
>them the situation in the worn-torn country, the official Kabul Radio reported.
>    Boroujerdi held meetings with Afghan President Burhanuddin Rabbani and
>Foreign Minister Najibullah Lafraie, said the broadcast monitored in Islamabad.
>    They discussed ``political issues'' of Afghanistan and matters of mutual
>interest, it said, without giving details.
>    Boroujerdi has made several visits to Afghanistan in recent months aimed at
>ending fighting between forces loyal to Rabbani and his opponents seeking to
>topple him.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 13:28 Tue Feb 06  EXP: 3 :00 Fri Feb 09
>
>
> Iranian family of seven dies in apartment fire
>    LOS ANGELES, Feb 6 (Reuter) - A family of seven who recently emigrated to
>the United States from Iran died in an apartment fire early on Tuesday,
>authorities said.
>    Four of those killed in the blaze in suburban Glendale were children,
>police sergeant Rick Young said.
>    He said the fire in the one-bedroom apartment apparently started in the
>kitchen.
>    The names of the victims were withheld pending notification of relatives.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 08:29 Tue Feb 06  EXP: 8 :00 Fri Feb 09
>
>
> Iran police seize two tonnes of opium, hold 35
>    TEHRAN, Feb 6 (Reuter) - Iranian police have broken up a gang smuggling
>drugs to Gulf Arab states and seized two tonnes of opium, state-run Tehran
>radio said on Tuesday.
>    It said police seized the drugs in the past few days and arrested 35 people
>charged with belonging to the ``international drug band'' that was active in
>south and southeastern Iran and unnamed Gulf Arab states.
>    Authorities also seized 28 vehicles and five houses belonging to the gang,
>it added.
>    Iran has reported drug seizures of over 110 tonnes since the beginning of
>the Iranian year that started on March 21, 1995.
>    It has an estimated one million drug addicts and is a key transit route for
>drugs, mostly opium from which heroin is made, from Afghanistan and Pakistan to
>Europe.
>    Iran faces Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain and
>Qatar across the Gulf waterway.
>
>=END=
>
>=START=   XMT: 03:02 Tue Feb 06  EXP: 3 :00 Fri Feb 09
>
>
> UN must consider culture before judging Iran- paper
>    NICOSIA, Feb 6 (Reuter) - International human rights monitors should
>consider a country's cultural and religious traditions before making any
>judgements, an Iranian newspaper said on Tuesday.
>    The English-language Tehran Times made the remarks a few days before the
>United Nations Human Rights Commission's investigator of Iran, Maurice
>Copithorne of Canada, is due to arrive in the country.
>    ``The special human rights representative should not surrender to direct
>and indirect pressures from the United States and other Western powers, whose
>aims are to use human rights as a leverage against Iran,'' the newspaper said
>in an editorial.
>    ``This would lead Iran to gain confidence in the United Nation's criteria
>and mechanism for implementing human rights,'' it added.
>    Capithorne is scheduled to begin a six-day visit to Iran on Saturday, IRNA
>said.
>    ``The U.N. special representative should not allow representatives of
>countries which themselves violate human rights, and are against Iran, to take
>advantage of the respect and reputation which has been accorded the U.N. for
>the purpose of fomenting enmity towards the government and nation of Iran,''
>the newspaper said.
>    In December, two U.N. human rights experts were invited to Iran for the
>first such visits by U.N. investigators for four years.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 07:29:53+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: Bruce and Buddhism

Dear Friends:

I have not heard from Bruce for many months, and this makes me sad.  He
taught me a very valuable lesson, and if he is listening out there, I wish
him to know that I have valued his insight, and would like to continue
valuing his insight.  He taught me that there are other viewpoints other
than my own (a point we all tend to forget time to time), and that they are
as valuable as my own.  The goal is not to try and "educate" the other's
viewpoint so that it looks like yours, but to search for a common ground for
dialogue.  I am still convinced that such a ground exists, but when you keep
arguing (a course discouraged strongly to the point of condemning both
parties as being "guilty" of being in the wrong by 'Abdul-Baha).  If I were
Bruce, and the argument had continued this long, I would be very surprised
if he had anything but disgust for Baha'is.  I hope he has superior
patience, as it would be a great loss to me personally if we were to lose
the benefit of his dialogue.

Perhaps argument is a pitfall in intellectual discourse.  There is a fine
line between argument and search for truth.  Bruce had started to educate me
on understanding Buddhism...I wish the dialogue had continued.  I have a
problem with accepting the non-existence of a Creator, but that is my
limitation, not Bruce's.  If we kept travelling in the layers of the
universe, I am convinced we would find the right concepts to continue
dialogue and to work together for whatever common good is needed or we are
qualified to work together on, and on whatever plane.  There is no need to
get hung up on semantics.  Nor is it necessary for Bruce to embrace my
understandings, or I his, to accomplish this unity.  What is necessary, even
essential, is for me to hold enough knowledge and sensitivity to Bruce's
understandings so as not to offend him in whatever interactions we have.
Bruce has much more knowledge of the Baha'i Faith, I think, than I have of
Buddhism, and so I see myself being in need of educating at this point.

Others in the Baha'i Community have a different perspective of Buddhism
affected by their ideas of the interaction of Baha'i Faith and Buddhism.
Does it need to become a barrier?

Love,

Bev.




=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 07:29:33+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: masculine/feminine

Dear Ahang:

I have never considered myself a radical feminist, but your statement puts
my hackles up.  Such are the statements and outlooks which have justified
the suppression of women, and the female voice, for centuries upon
centuries, used as a justification for relegating the feminine voice to
"secondary importance".  Please think again.

"To me the voice in the Writings is always masculine and its always
Baha'u'llah.  And
insisting that somehow there is a significance to this
masculinity or that in fact the voice is feminine but due to our
male prejudice we are not seeing it, I think is sub-efficient."

History has a very sad tale to tell of imbalance amongst the genders, and
definitive statements like this play a large role.  Do we want to repeat
history, or take a new path as directed by Baha'u'llah?  In the analogy of
gender, there are very definite characteristics which affect the way we read
the Writings.  For example, the characteristic of response, of surrender, of
passion.  Some of these are cast in the role of female or male.  The Aqdas
also tells us, please excuse my paraphrasing as I do not know the proper
word for it, "What is good for the goose, is also good for the gander, and
vice versa".  This is a point which tends to be understressed in study
sessions of the Aqdas (at least it was at the one's I was at), except in
"Role of Women" sessions.  Then it is tossed out as a placating bone for the
women to comfort themselves with.  As a result of this "understressing" of
this point, I noticed a lot of confusion on the part of both men and women.
There were even some people justifying casting women more in the
"supportive" role for the men while the men got on with the "real stuff".
Horrible!  Especially when they use the Writings and the Aqdas to support
their argument.

I am not accusing you, dear Ahang, of being one of those who would think of
doing this, but just as a toddler does not need a push when it is taking
it's first steps, so the equality of the sexes does not need statements
which can be used to justify inappropriate attitudes.  When you use the word
"always", it sets up such a definitive statement.  Please drop the "always",
and then your voice is, again, your opinion and your right.

Love,

Bev.




=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 07:29:45+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: naming of babies

Dear Derek:

How could you explain to your child in later life that they were named after
a cat?  (Even if Sherman is a very distinguished cat.)  Would the feminine
version be Shirley?




=END=


Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 21:30:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: part 1, comments on translation of "Surah of Blood"

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]


I am very grateful to Juan Cole for having posted a few days ago
his superb translation of the Surah of Blood.  Tonight, I gave
myself a birthday present and spent about an hour deepening on
this amazing Tablet.  I'm truly overwhelmed by both the beauty of
the original language and Juan's ability to render it to
exquisite English.  Its a wonderful accomplishment, and I hope in
due time he would take steps to publish it.

I have listed a few unworthy thoughts on translation of the first
part in square bracket.  ahang.


Provisional trans. by Juan R.I. Cole, History, University of Michigan,
Ann Arbor, MI  48105-1045; revised Jan. 27-28, 1996.  Supplied for
personal, private study only.  Not Reviewed.

Baha'u'llah

The Surah of Blood
(Suratu'd-Dam)

We have caused this Surah of Blood to surge forth from the Ocean of
----------------------------------
the Unseen, that it might be a sign of My Manifestation among all
----------------
created things.
[The opening phrase, "hadahy Suratu'd-Dam", I think needs to be stated
first:  "This is the Surah of Blood, which We have caused to surge
forth ...".  Actually in the original the word "caused" is not there,
is there any way to remove it and keep the English elegant?  As for
"that it might be", the original is very emphatic, so suggest
replacing it with "as" (which is not very eloquent, so perhaps we
should leave as present).]


He is eternally seated upon the Throne!  In My Name, the Glorious, the
All-Glorious:

Hearken, O Muhammad, to the voice of thy Lord from this station, which
                                                        -
[suggestion capitalizing "Station" as it refers to Baha'u'llah.]


is exalted above the reach of all contingent beings.  It can never be
   -------------              ---------------------
[The original says "lan yasal alyha" seems better rendered as "beyond"
as opposed to "exalted above".  Also, a literal reading of the Text
says "beyond the hands", but I myself prefer the current rendering
"the reach".  The term "mumkinat" which is rendered as "all contingent
beings" I think can be translated simply as "all created things".]


attained by the hearts of His creatures nor by the inmost realities of
those who have, for a single instant, been heedless of this
sanctified, mighty and concealed Cause.

Say: O people, hasten unto the sanctuary of God and His essence, unto
the House of God and His Selfhood, unto the Manifestation of God and
His sovereignty.  Be not of them that make mention of God with their
lips and yet show forth opposition to His signs.  Say: O people, this
                                          -----
[Should "ayatih" be translated as "Verses"?]


is a station around which circles the Concourse on High, then the
     -
[Again, I'm reading "maqam" (Station) as a reference to Baha'u'llah,
ergo suggest capitalizing.]


denizens of the canopy of eternity and those who dwell beyond the
depths of grandeur, if ye be of them that comprehend.  Say: This is
------
[The original is "lujaj", plural of "luj", which means oceans.
Suggest using:  "... dwell beyond the oceans of grandeur...."]


the Shrine, the Presence, the Countenance and the Greatness of God
Himself.

Arise and issue forth from your homes, O people of the concourse of
---------                       -----
[While I like "Arise and", must point out that the original only says
"Issue forth", but see no harm in having the way it is presently.
"amakinikum", rendered as "homes", is closer to "places".]


Divinity, and ye of the grades of divine Dominion, then the people of
                        ------
[I have a bit of problem with grades ("mavaqih") and while can't come
up with a more satisfactory translation suggest considering "station"
or even "gardens" or something  closer to "places".]


might in the stations both of this earthly world and the Kingdom of
Heaven.  Thus may ye attain unto this station, which none have reached
                                      -
[Station]


save those who detached themselves from all in heaven and on earth,
and from all that is characterized by name, description, direction or
allusion, did ye but understand.  Say: O people, this is the station
                                                             -
[Station]


of God, this is His Court, Garden and Paradise, and this is His
                    -----  ------
[Term "fana" means "Threshold".  As for "Garden", I think we might be
able to use "Ridvan", though it makes the sentence a bit cumbersome.]


Tabernacle and Pavilion.  Beware, O people, lest ye turn your faces
toward anyone but Him.  Hasten then unto Him, that mayhap ye will
be given to eat of the fruits of the Spirit.  This is a station
         ------                             --          -
[Suggest dropping "to eat" as its implicit.  Also, a phrase must be
added to read:  "And, O My people, this is a Station ...".  This
phrase "O My people" is very important as it suggest His community.]


wherein the righteous, and they that circle round the Throne on High,
have halted, as ye also bear witness.
                   ----
[There is no "also" in the original.]


As for thee, O Muhammad, perform what the tongue of thy Lord doth
counsel thee at this time, and accomplish all that which thou art
bidden by God, the Protector, the Almighty, the Beloved.  First of
all, tear the veils of vain imagination from about thy heart by My
mighty, powerful and unquestioned Sovereignty.  Then enter the
-       -            ------------
[Should adjs be capitalized and "unquestioned" replaced with "Evident"
which is close to "ma`alum"?]


fortress of the All-Merciful in My Name, the Mighty, the Glorified,
--------
[The term "misr" (Egypt) evokes the image of "Paradise" as in "misr-i
janan", therefore suggest replacing "fortress" with "Paradise".]


and pay no heed to all that hath been and shall be.  If thou shouldst
behold Satan2 seated at its gate, forbidding thee to enter therein,
       ------
[Actually, I think the word "sultan" (king) is correctly used here and
should not be read as "Shaytan" (Satan).  The imagery is that of Egypt
(paradise) where even if a king is seated by the gate and because of
his might and power one might be timid from the entering this
paradise, then by looking the other way and reply upon Baha'u'llah one
may enter therein.  Anyway, I'm convinced reading "sultan" is
accurate.]


close thine eyes to him and take refuge in My Beauty, the Blessed, the
Help in Peril, the Adored.



I'll try to find a bit more time tomorrow to deepen myself on the next
section of this Tablet.

best regards, ahang.





=END=


From: "K. Paul Johnson" 
Subject: Re: power and antiliberalism
To: "Richard C. Logan" 
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 14:05:02 EST
Cc: jrcole@umich.edu, talisman@indiana.edu

According to Richard C. Logan:
> "balancing of interests".  You also speak of "Rights".  Rights are a very
> good thing in a world bereft of learning in the latest the message of
> God.  I believe this was always the context in which Baha'u'llah and the
> master approved of such things.

Therefore, in the New World Order who needs rights?

> The pattern of a New World Order has been established.  As the Apostle
> Paul has said, "When I was a child I spake as a child..Now it is time to
> put away childish things."  One need not cling to the security blanket of
> free speech and so forth in a New World Order.

Yumping Yiminy!  At least here's one Baha'i who brandishes his
totalitarianism rather than pretending it's something else!
>
> Finally, why would one insist on projecting ones fears of Middle Eastern
> tyranny on this evolving, organic Order?  Baha'u'llah has infused it with
> His DNA pattern that is irresistible--"Day" shall not be "Followed by
> night".

So you say, buddy, so you say!  Night is already here IMO, in
sentiments like these.




=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 05:06:19 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "QUANTA  DAWNLIGHT" 
Subject: RE: Male and female attributes

A few personal meditations on the Creator as genderless . . .

My take on Juan's comments is that he feels that Baha'u'llah does not mean Man
and Woman literally but rather as metaphors or attributes of a whole person.
Is that correct? As a native English speaker, I have never quite understood
how nouns can have gender in many languages. That's because my thinking has
been limited by language. It has been forced into certain grooves. My thinking
is also probably limited by schooling, social conditioning, political ideals,
television, religious biases, and subtle everyday brainwashing from
entertainment media. I'm not always conscious of it. So I, like many others,
hear the words male and female and make associations that aren't necessarily
valid. When it pertains to the writings of a mirror of the Creator, all bets
are off. They do not communicate at our level but above it.

Intuitively, I do not believe that the Manifestation, a fundamental archetype,
can be either male or female. Yes, they have organic bodies and the appearance
and physical functionality of a gendered person. But that's just a vessel.
It's not their reality. The Creator is sanctified above all attributes but
uses our terribly limited language to communicate with us through a
Manifestation. The Manifestation has a physical body and speaks an existing
and well-known language. They leave a record that we must be able to keep and
study. The alphabet and words that they use are familiar but their meanings
are deeper than what our conditioned responses suggest. If all meanings were
obvious, we would not have needed an appointed Interpreter nor a Guardian.

Earlier discussion on Talisman allowed the probability of female
Manifestations in the past and probably in the future. I've found it
fascinating to meditate on how a female Manifestation of the Creator might
express Her majesty, power, transcendence, and beauty. Think how She might
sound if she were speaking in the American metaphor of the 1990's, for
example. Or, even more of a stretch, of the decade of the 1950's. Would it be
as difficult for the people of Her era and culture to comprehend Her higher
meanings and symbolism than it was for the people of the Middle East over a
century ago to comprehend Baha'u'llah's deeper meanings? He used images that
they would understand. There is no reasonable alternative to that.

<>

The English language is weak when it comes to expressing mystical concepts.
Some languages may be better suited to that. It is so difficult for us to
think in a totally non-gendered way. I certainly cannot do that regardless of
my personal androgyny. Nonetheless, the Creator, as Mirror of the Divine, has
no gender and therefore neither does the Holy Spirit, which is the delivery
medium of written revelation. Man and Woman do not mean the same things to
Baha'u'llah that they do to us.

Hannah

The Artist Formerly Known As Cary  :-)


----------
From: 	owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of QUANTA  DAWNLIGHT
Sent: 	Monday, 05 February, 1996 22:13 PM
To: 	talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 	RE: Male and female attributes

Dear Hannah,
you wrote:
>who is:
>a)  Male

----QDL a homosapien with muscles able to carry a woman over
the threshold after he makes false promises for love and fidelity.

>b)  Female--

QDL a homosapien who believes the lies of the muscle man

>c)  Who cares?

-- QDL at this point, I sure the heck don't. Do you?
Sorry folks, I don't mean to spoil the intellectual party, but
as you all know, I am shooting in the dark. I am not on talisman

QDL-But, the serious side of things to follow below these lines.

Dr. Juan Cole wrote:

>Quanta:  Baha'u'llah makes it clear in many Tablets that he thinks of
>courage and steadfastness as "male" attributes and of timidness and
>weakness as "female."  *However*, He does not think one's biological
>*sex* determines one's gender.

-QDL I must be living thousand years in the future where this language
is foreign. So, do the qualities determine one's gender? "What a woman
she is strong, brave like a man". Hmmmm??? It is like saying, wow
what a black guy, smart like a white man.

>So some biological "women" are *actually* "men" or "masculine"
>because they have great courage and steadfastness;

This implies that courage and steadfastness in essence are "male"
qualities, women are just able to emulate after men. NaaaaWW! Don't
think so. In fact, what I see in the media right now, such as women
trying to be like men, tough, violent, sexually agressive etc.
itself is a betrayal of both men and women. Those are the qualities
of the lower kingdom, not spiritual beings, whatever their sex.

>while some biological "men" are actually "women."  He says this
>openly. 

Yes! weak, etc. etc. Wrong again. As you see I am in a difficult
mood. The ideas of individual strength, courage etc. were  used to
make wars. Just as the false sense of freedom, democracy is used at
the collective level to justify wars for the greedy military
industrial complex. Haven't we seen enough of it in this century?

Sometimes I wonder if true religion is no religion at all.
I am getting sleepy and tired, so I better get off of this subject
now before I get into deeper trouble with myself.

lovingly,
quanta





=END=


Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 23:02:21 -0700
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re:Tablet of the Universe

Does anybody have a text of the english translation of the "Tablet of the
Universe" they could e-mail me. I'd appreciate it tremendously. Thanx
Gord.
****************************************************
"whatever seeks to exist and endure also desires to be one; for without
unity, existence itself cannot be sustained"       (Boethius 524 A.D.)
****************************************************
Gordon A. McFarlane                       e-mail:  McFarlane@upanet.uleth.ca
919  11th Street South                      phone: (403) 327-2987
Lethbridge, Alberta; Canada
TlJ 2P7




=END=


Date: Tue, 06 Feb 96 23:24:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: masculine/feminine

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]


Dear Bev,

I'm sorry for having pushed a hot bottom, but for now the burden
of proof is on those who claim that indeed in His Writings,
Baha'u'llah adopts feminine voice.  With all due respect to
everyone, I like to see less emotion and more documented
evidence in discussing this subject.

So, here is my statement again:  Baha'u'llah's voice is always
masculine in His Writings.

In order to prove me wrong, all folks have to do is to come up
with a single instance where He clearly has adopted a feminine
persona.  How difficult of search can that be?  I'm a very
reasonable person and will listen to evidence, but its got to be
straight forward so that we can all see and agree upon it, not
some hand waving argument like "removing of veils" or worse yet,
arguing the Guardian's translations can't be trusted because
editors played with them, etc.

So, if people don't like my statement, then please prove me
wrong based on clear evidence.  If and when that happens, I'll
acknowledge my error.  I'm man enough ;-}

thanks, ahang.



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 01:28:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand 
To: Don Peden 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: naming of babies



Speaking of cats, babies and names, i could not resist but post this
message. My name, Cheshmak, means Wink in Persian. It is a funny name to
have yet it is a fun name to have also. Well, last year i found out a
fellow Baha'i in a nearby community had named her cat Cheshmak. I thought
this was really cute and wondered how it was that i was honoured with
this. So, i asked her. Her answer: "Cheshmak is such a good cat name!!"

Regards,

Cheshmak



=END=


Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 23:28:39 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra 
To: "K. Paul Johnson" 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Seven centers?

Paul--

I seem to recall that the Neopythagoreans had a septenary cosmology of
sorts. John is the man to ask, though.

Nima

**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit  *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth    *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning.                 *
*                                                            *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg     *
*   and Wilhelm Dilthey                                      *
**************************************************************





=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 01:46:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand 
To: Gordon McFarlane 
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re:Tablet of the Universe



I too would love a translated copy of the Tablet if anyone has it.

Thank you

Cheshmak Farhoumand



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 07:43:07 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "QUANTA  DAWNLIGHT" 
Subject: RE: Male and female attributes

In my previous post I wrote: "Nonetheless, the Creator, as Mirror of the
Divine, has
no gender and therefore neither does the Holy Spirit, which is the delivery
medium of written revelation. Man and Woman do not mean the same things to
Baha'u'llah that they do to us."

I meant to say "Nonetheless, the Manifestation, as Mirror, etc." I should have
proofread it.

Hannah

The Artist Formerly Known As Cary  :-)


----------
From: 	owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Hannah E. Reinstein
Sent: 	Tuesday, 06 February, 1996 21:06 PM
To: 	talisman@indiana.edu; QUANTA  DAWNLIGHT
Subject: 	RE: Male and female attributes

A few personal meditations on the Creator as genderless . . .





=END=


Date: 07 Feb 96 02:42:36 EST
From: Steven Scholl <73613.2712@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman 
Subject: Digging the Buddha

Friends,

Did everyone catch the news of archeologists uncovering the Buddha's birthplace
in Nepal? Of interest was that they uncovered the holy site beneath the very
sacred centre that Buddhists have revered as the Buddha's birth place since the
dawn of Buddhism.

And speaking of the Buddha, I share Bruce and Eric's concerns about the way we
approach Buddhism as Baha'is. It is not my area of expertise so my views are up
in the air and always open to improvement. But I would agree that if a Buddhist
cannot recognize their faith when described by a Baha'i then there is a problem.
I do think that there is a bit of a rough and tumble aspect to interfaith
dialogue where participants will have clashes as they discuss doctrines and
truth claims. But still the burden of proof must lie with the outsider if they
want to reinterpret a tradition from an outsider's perspective. For example,
many of us are eager to jump into the Jesus Seminar dialogue in a few days. Here
we have Christians of different stripes coming to grips with recent scholarship
on the historicial Jesus that seems to undermine the faith stances of large
numbers of Christians. Now, Baha'is may jump on this bandwagon in order to see
Jesus in a light that is in harmony with some strains of modern scholarship in
opposition to, say, Evangelical teachings and in conformity with Baha'i
teachings. That is a fair approach for Baha'is who are involved in dialogue with
Christians. Similarly, Baha'is may use modern Buddhist scholarship to reevaluate
certain Buddhist beliefs in a way that appears more in harmony with Baha'i
teachings as currently professed. (I have yet to see this happen) But in both
cases the Baha'is must be careful and on firm ground. Careful in the sense of
being respectful of the traditional beliefs of their Christian or Buddhist
dialogue partners. On firm ground in that they must have a firm grasp of the
tradition and how scholarship might be calling into question traditional
beliefs.

To date, I have not seen Baha'is adequately address Buddhism when attempting to
reinvent Buddhism in a Baha'i image. I find this approach a dead end. And here I
think Bruce's concerns and objections are absolutely on the mark. (Btw, is there
any major article, monograph or book written by a Baha'i scholar academically
trained in Buddhist studies dealing with Baha'i and Buddhism? I do not know of
any myself.)

My own view is that the Baha'i sacred writings have almost no substantive
comments on the Buddha and Buddhist teachings. So why do we feel compelled to
turn Buddhism into a Western-style monotheism? I would suggest that the concept
of Manifestation of God as described by Baha, firmly rooted in the Irano-Semitic
religious heritage, is not a meaningful category for the Buddha. I have no
problem in seeing the Buddha as an awakened Teacher and not a Manifestation of
God. I do not think the Baha'i writings call on us to turn him into a
Manifestation. Here I would simply ask for patience. I think we are too early in
the game to be able to reach much of a meaningful common ground. We have one
major academic study on the concept of manifestation in Baha'i (Juan Cole's ABS
monograph). Juan's work is of fundamental importance but we need much more work
in this area and I am certain Juan does not see this paper as some kind of end
point in discussing the concept of manifestation in the Baha'i writings. And as
I noted above we have NO academic work on Buddhism by Baha'is trained in
Buddhist studies who could provide a more accurate map for approaching Buddhism
in comparative terms with Baha'i. What I would expect and what I have caught
glimmers of in my own preliminary and secondary readings is that for there to be
the type of interfaith dialogue called for by people like Paul Knitter, Leonard
Swidler, R. Pannikar, and Hans Kung one must be able to go over to the other
side. Not just seek conversion of the dialogue partner (which is a legitimate
approach) but also be ready to be converted to the other perspective. So, what I
see as a desired state is that Baha'is and Buddhists with a deep knowledge of
Buddhist and Baha'i sacred texts may lead their respective communities into a
greater awareness and appreciation of the other community. And more interstingly
that the Baha'i concept of manifestation will be deepened by being converted to
Buddhism while Buddhism is converted to Baha'i by incorporating aspects of
Baha'i teachings into itself. This possiblity recognizes several things:

1. No faith is static but is open to change and development via cross cultural
dialogue.
2. Sacred texts are not frozen but always open to new possiblities. Following
the hermeneutics of H.G. Gadamer (see especially TRUTH AND METHOD) the sacred
text is open to new meanings because of the open ended nature of the
interpretive act, which acknowledges that every text has meanings that go beyond
what even the author intended. This "discovery" of 20th century philosophy and
theology is of course old news to the spiritual hermeneutics practiced in many
religious traditions. In Baha'i terms it is seen in Baha's statements about how
the holy writings have an outer (zahir) and inner (batin) dimension and that it
is the duty of the believer to uncover the multiple possiblities of a text and
be open to diversity of understanding.

I would suspect that Bruce and many Baha'is may think this is a highly unlikely
or unsatisfactory scenario. What I am suggesting is similar to what we discussed
earlier in regards to Native American manifestations. Can Baha'i make room for
indigenous non-literate expressions of the concept of manifestation? Native
messengers also do not fit the job description any more than does the Buddha. So
we either remake them into something that fits the mold or we expand the model
and be converted to a wider concept of manifestation than we now possess. I am
guided largely by the work of the late Toshihiko Izutsu. Izutus offers a model
for a future comparative religious philosophy program. Fluent in over 30
languages his comparative studies were based on his reading of Arabic, Persian,
Sanskrit, Pali, Japanese, and Chinese texts and then mapping out a comparative
philosophy of the most profound importance. The work of Izutsu is not to
harmonize differences but to carefully explore the key-concepts and deep
structures of experience in the religious philosophies of East and West within
their own historical, philosophical and religious context. From this point
meaningful comparison of similarities and differences can be discussed. We are
in danger if we try to pass too quickly over diversity in our hope for a unified
field theory of religions.

I also do not think it necessary or particularly helpful to try and make the
Buddha and his teachings as somehow pointing to a true theistic belief beneath
his attacks of Brahmanical theology. Again, I think we Baha'is should accept
Buddhism on Buddhist terms and any attempts to critique traditional Buddhist
beliefs must start from within the tradition and not by imposing Baha'i theology
onto Buddhist beliefs.

A line from a new band, Freakwater, made me think of the beauty of the godless
perspective: "There's nothin' so pure/As the kindness of an atheist".


Steve Scholl





=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:51:51 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: naming of babies
To: talisman@indiana.edu

---- Begin Forwarded Message
Dear Talismanians
Try Sherwoman
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
Dear Derek:

How could you explain to your child in later life that they were named
after
a cat?  (Even if Sherman is a very distinguished cat.)  Would the
feminine
version be Shirley?






=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 18:29:15 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg" 
To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
Cc: jarmstro@sun1.iusb.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Sexual Imagery not just Male

Heaven knows that I am against stereotypical thinking.  I am glad
that is being combated by the following:

> the stereotypical linking of concepts such as territoriality to
> maleness, and nurturing to femaleness in some of these posts.  This is
> scientistic balderdash.

> . . . it can be proven that men are inherently liberal and innovative,
> and woman inherently conservative and reactionary.

Er ...  What is going on here?

Steve F.



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 19:31:41 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg" 
To: Steven Scholl <73613.2712@compuserve.com>
Cc: Talisman 
Subject: Re: Digging the Buddha

Dear Steven:

Your comments, for me, are the kind of thought-provoking and carefully
considered statements I always have hoped to find on Talisman.

Often, I admit, I write to Talisman to buttress a point, support a
direction of inquiry.  May I write my simple thoughts?  No expertise,
no guile:

First, it seems to me that Bruce, in this exchange, was more
aggressive at not listening than Jack.  (Bruce: if you are
reading this, is this not true?).

My experience with Bhuddism from Asian sources is that there
is a much greater eagerness to listen to the thinking of other
religions, and to dialogue.  Professor Izutsu, from a Buddhist
background, is not atypical.  Partly why I like to read him is
that he is so Japanese, and open, in his approach.

[This was not always so -- for a long time, Christianity was
considered the enemy in Japanese Buddhist circles.  But faced
with the rock of either unthinking popular Buddhism or the hard
place of deafening secular neglect, reaching out to other
traditions has proven not only fruitful as a way of advancing
understanding, but also can rather easily be seen to be very
much in keeping with ancient and well-established Buddhist
traditions.]

So, I guess that we have to be aware that a dialogue of a
western Buddhist and a western Baha'i might not be at all
representative of the real dialogue that can take place.
For one thing, I believe that non-Western Buddhists are
much more open to such a dialogue.

In the same way, I am just slightly apprehensive about what
you propose, perhaps unecessarily so.  Let me say what my
prejudices are (I could dress them up as being intuition,
but that would be claiming too much):

Buddhist studies of the western academic variety is a kind of
grafting of Buddhist texts onto western preconceptions -- what
I see as the eastern way of thinking and investigating is usually
missing.  Of course, the western academic spirit of accurate
representation of the thinking, the superb kind of historical
research that westerners are so good at, can be there.  But,
I remain suspicious of imitation.

What we really should do is have some kind of dialogue between
some of our academics and some of our traditional Baha'i
scholars with some Buddhists (and again, my prejudice is that
they should be non-Western Buddhists, but I easily can lose
much of that prejudice.)







=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Tue,  6 Feb 96 15:15:16 PST
Subject: Re: Welcoming & Affirming Gays
To: Steven Coles ,
        Robert Lee Green 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, Brooke Rolston 

So I have some confusion here. Do Baha'is really exclude gays. The
answer is no and yes. "No" as people, as friends. "Yes" as Baha'i's
if they wish to have a sex life as a gay person.

Gay sex is not kosher if you want to be a Baha'i. Gay sexual behavior
is considered and labeled as immoral under the current understandings
and those understandings seem to be firmly in place even though they
are being challenged by certain thoughtful souls among us.

Even so, those who challenge that rule are themselves, I gather,
looked at with suspicion by others.

The way the situation is parsed out runs in pretty strick parellels
with the Fundamentalist Christian position that Christians should
hate the sin but love the sinner. Many gay people would find that
parsing to be insulting, I imagine. Perhaps others don't. I don't
know.

So, would gay people be accepted into the faith? Yes if they were
willing to declare their sexual practices as a perversion, but no if
they were committed to continue to maintain their current life
structure.

I am so grateful I don't have to sort out the strands of my faith
through this issue.  But, paradoxically, the more I feel called to
universal empathy, the more painful it is to support this position.
Because, frankly, I don't see the truth of it through my own eyes.

So the paradox continues: The more I feel called by the Faith to see
the truth through my own eyes, the more difficult it is to accept the
truth claims of the Faith.

I imagine this struggle is good for me.

Philip





On Tue, 6 Feb 1996 12:46:54 -0600 (CST)  Robert Lee Green wrote:
>No this is absolutely not true about all Baha'is, and in fact it
runs
>counter to the unifying principles of the founder of the Faith. The
>comment is true principally for the person who uttered it.
>
>On Tue, 6 Feb
>1996, Steven Coles wrote:
>
>> cc: Brooke Rolstan
>>
>> My wife and I visited a number of Baha'i firesides and had
positive
>> impressions.  However, we were recently told that our gay friends
would
>> not be accepted into the Baha'i Faith.  Do Baha'is really exclude
gays?
>>
>> Steven S. Coles
>> Seattle, Washington State, U.S.A.
>> 
>>
>
>
------------------------------------------------
>                     |  "O SON OF SPIRIT!
 |
>Robert Green         |     My first counsel is this: Possess a pure,
 |
>rlg0001              |     kindly and radiant heart, that thine may
 |
>@jove.acs.unt.edu    |     be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable
 |
>                     |     and everlasting."  -  Baha'u'llah          |
>                      ------------------------------------------------
>

-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/06/96
Time: 15:15:16

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein




=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 16:07:30+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: naming of babies

Sherperson?




=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 16:07:18+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: masculine/feminine

Dear Ahang:

Since when is the Revelation devoid of emotion?  To divorce emotion and
response from intellect and go only with intellect is to kill religion...it
is a dead thing.  To go only on emotion and response is about as close to
superstition as you can get.  It is the balance of the two which create a
spiritual reality...and this is in the Writings...didn't we do this number
last year?  If you want to get into the evidence game, prove God exists!
There seems to be no hard "evidence", just "circumstantial evidence".  For
example, there is a "creation", therefore there must be a "creator".  But
have you "evidence" of this?

Again, and on this basis, I object to the use of "always".  There seems to
me to be "evidence" being presented already about the use of masculine and
feminine in the writings, as other scholars seem to be testifying to.  (Or
did I miss something in this long debate?)  This doesn't even begin to touch
on the cultural relevance of how we see gender roles.

A point which has been brought up is the question of whether we need to
recognize any characteristic as gender specific...Don get's frustrated with
the labelling of things feminine and masculine...he thinks we are all
humans, and that is enough.  Maybe this is valid...and maybe it is an
evasion of recognizing the equality of the sexes.  Masculine and feminine
(men and women) are points of reference used in the Writings.  Our mistake
comes, perhaps, in tying too much importance to reproductive roles and not
enough to common strengths, such as nurturing, teaching, creativity and
decision making.  We take it all too literally.

A Manifestation of God, and even our own spiritual nature, transcend
physical gender roles we tend to attach to them.  To say a Manifestation is
"always masculine" or "always feminine" is, I think, extremely limiting.
All attributes are contained in the Manifestation...just as all attributes
are latent with our spiritual reality.  At this level, gender becomes
irrelevant, and is only a useful tool for metaphors to evoke
response...emotional response at that!





=END=


Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 06:27:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: The Tablet of Universe

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]


Per a couple of requests, a provisional translation of Abdu'l-Baha's
Lawh-i-Aflakiyyih is hereby posted.  Text is scanned, so there might
be glitches.  The original Tablet can be found in Makatib-i
Abdu'l-Baha, vol. 1, pp 13-32.  (If your email system can't handle
longish text, please advise and will then post in smaller sections.)



LAWH-I-AFLAKIYYIH

(Tablet of the Universe)


Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to
penetrate the degrees of existence; Who hath made the effects of
those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs
to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds.
By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His
grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole
revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them
to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent
and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the
first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of
creation and the source of the different grades of realities in
the degrees of existence.  When, through its power of attraction
and propagation, the Day-Star of Names and Attributes shone upon
the hidden realities in the heart of the unseen realm, they
issued forth, were spread abroad, scattered about, set in order,
became the recipients of the grace of God and His outpourings,
and were made to be the sole manifestations of the Divine
conditions and Eternal signs.  Emerging from behind the veils,
they appeared clothed in raiments of light, moving in the
firmament of the unity of God, in orbits of sanctity and circles
of glorification.

Thus the suns of the praise of the one true God moved resplendent
in a vast, infinite space, capable neither of being defined by
limits nor contained within the compass of signs and allusions.
All praise be to Him Who was its Author and Creator, Who spread
it out, and adorned it with countless lamps and never-fading
luminaries:  'None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him'
(Qur'an, 74:31). He made the circuits of these luminous divine
orbs to be their lofty and celestial spheres; and He made the
bodies of these spiritual spheres to be subtle and soft, flowing
and liquid, undulating and vibrating, in such manner that these
refulgent orbs swim in the circumferences of the spheres, and
move in their vast space by the aid of their Creator and Maker,
their Ordainer and Fashioner.

Divine and all-encompassing Wisdom hath ordained that motion be
an inseparable concomitant of existence, whether inherently or
accidentally, spiritually or materially.  This movement must be
governed by some check or rein, some regulator or director,
otherwise order will be disrupted and the spheres and bodies will
fall from the heavens.  For this reason God brought into being a
universal attractive force between these bodies to hold sway over
them and govern them, a force deriving from the firm ties, the
mighty correspondence and affinity that exist between the
realities of these limitless worlds.  By the operation of this
attractive force those holy and resplendent suns, with their
luminous worlds, satellites and planets, circling and orbiting in
their heavens, at once exerted attraction and were subject to it,
induced motion and were themselves moved, began orbiting and set
into orbit other bodies, shone forth and caused others to shine.
In this manner they became arranged in a perfectly ordered
system, each one a handiwork of consummate fashioning and
manifest beauty, each one an enduring creation and a conclusive
proof.  Glory be to Him Who attracted them, laid firm hold on
them, imbued them with effulgence, ordered them and set them in
motion; and far from His glory be that which any of his creatures
can affirm of Him or attribute to Him.

O thou the recipient of overflowing bounties from the billowing,
the surging, the Most Great Ocean, whose waves beat against the
shores of the nations.  Blessed art thou inasmuch as thou hast
sought the shelter of the strong Pillar and taken refuge in the
impregnable Stronghold, the station of complete servitude to thy
Glorious and All-Praised Lord.  Thou hast rid thyself of baseless
suppositions and sanctified thyself from intellectual imaginings,
hastening to the fountain-head of truths and mysteries, and
thirsting for the well-spring of the river of knowledge where the
seas meet and the rivers return.

Know thou that the expressions of the creative hand of God
throughout His limitless worlds are themselves limitless.
Limitations are a characteristic of the finite, and restriction
is a quality of existent things, not of the reality of existence.


This being the case, how can one, without proof or testimony,
conceive of creation being bound by limits?  Gaze with
penetrating vision into this new cycle.  Hast thou seen any
matter in which God is bounded by limits which He cannot
overstep?  Nay, by the excellence of His glory!  On the contrary,
His tokens have encompassed all things and are sanctified and
exalted beyond computation in the world of creation.

These are spiritual truths relating to the spiritual world.  In
like manner, from these spiritual realities infer truths about
the material world. For physical things are signs and imprints of
spiritual things; every lower thing is an image and counterpart
of a higher thing.  Nay, earthly and heavenly, material and
spiritual, accidental and essential, particular and universal,
structure and foundation, appearance and reality and the essence
of all things, both inward and outward -- all of these are
connected one with another and are interrelated in such a manner
that you will find that drops are patterned after seas, and that
atoms are structured after suns in proportion to their capacities
and potentialities.  For particulars in relation to what is below
them are universals, and what are great universals in the sight
of those whose eyes are veiled are in fact particulars in
relation to the realities and beings which are superior to them.
Universal and particular are in reality incidental and relative
considerations.  The mercy of thy Lord, verily, encompasseth all
things!

Know then that the all-embracing framework that governs existence
includes within its compass every existent being - particular or
universal - whether outwardly or inwardly, secretly or openly.
Just as particulars are infinite in number, so also universals,
on the material plane, and the great realities of the universe
are without number and beyond computation.  The Dawning Places of
Unity, the Daysprings of Singleness and the Suns of Holiness are
also sanctified beyond the bounds of number, and the luminous
spiritual worlds are exalted above limits and restrictions.  In
like manner the worlds of bodily existence the mind of no man can
reckon nor the understanding of the learned comprehend.  Consider
the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings
indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome
limitless expanse:  'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred
thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the
heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell --
all of these in a single lamp.  And only God knows what is in the
rest of the lamps.' The fact that philosophers and sages have
posited limits and restrictions for such matters is to be
explained by the limitations of people~s minds and perceptions
and the blindness of the followers of allusions, whose natures
and intellects have been rendered dull and inanimate by the
interposition of many veils.

Every cycle and dispensation has its own distinctive character,
its allotted measure of Grace. The realities of things are
manifested in a degree proportionate to their stations, ranks,
receptivity and capacity. For instance, regard the human reality,
its spiritual perfections, the properties and virtues of the
soul: their appearance and manifestation, their propagation and
growth depend in degree upon the stage of development reached in
the course of this earthly life, which ranges from the condition
of the primal germ to the highest stations of mature development.
The same principle is to be found in the whole of existence, seen
and unseen.

Consider this marvelous cycle, this great matchless dispensation
and say: Glorified be God, Lord of the Exalted Throne, for He
hath manifested the Sun of Oneness and the Eternal Reality from
this lofty and majestic, this mighty and ancient Horizon in such
wise that when its ardent penetrating rays shone upon the empty
worlds and desolate realms the realities of all things and the
universal meanings sprang forth and were renewed through its
regenerative power the hidden mysteries of the sciences, which
discover the divine realities, were made known, and the guarded,
preserved Secret and the Hidden Sign became manifest.  For this
sublime cycle, this most great Dawntide is the dispensation of
truths and mysteries, of the gathering-up of the affairs of the
Merciful in the centre of lights, and of the appearance of the
hidden treasures in the midmost heart of the worlds of Thy Lord,
the Almighty, the Unconstrained.  In the reality of drops seas of
divine verses surge and in the essence of atoms suns of names and
attributes are manifest.  In our times scientists are discovering
in the strata of rocks secrets that their predecessors could not
discover in perspicuous tablets of light.  That is because in
this most great manifestation, without investigation or deduction
the gates of revelation and discovery have been thrown wide open.


The birds of men's thoughts have escaped from the snares of
superstitions, and the veils have been rent asunder and removed
from those mysteries which previously held sway over men.

As weakness and evanescence are inherent in the nature of the
contingent world, it was not possible that it should sustain a
complete manifestation of the signs and evidences of this
Revelation, which hath shone forth from the Summit of Sinai,
except in a gradual manner.  For this reason wilt thou discern,
when thou dost look about thee with joyful gaze and uplifted
vision, the tokens of this great, brilliant Luminary, see the
lights of wisdom shining from the horizons on all regions, gather
the luminous pearls which are cast forth by this surging,
restless and billowing Ocean, and drink from the clear sweet
founts which spring forth from the outpourings of this bountiful
showering rain-cloud.  Blessed is he who hath not been prevented
by the intervening veils of profitless and fanciful sciences from
beholding the verities of true knowledge and from perceiving its
inmost essence in the Day of God.  Joy to him who hath removed
the veil and gone forth amongst the peoples of the world with
penetrating vision when the eyes of all are transfixed in awe at
the effulgence of the All-Powerful.  Woe to him who on the Day of
Judgement is raised up blind, who neglected to remember his most
glorious Lord, whose ears were deaf to the call which was raised
in this all-highest Paradise.

Say:  'O my God!  Wert Thou to create in every limb of my body
tongues speaking, in the most eloquent of languages, pure clear
meanings, far surpassing the limitations of signs and allusions,
and were these tongues to praise Thee and thank Thee throughout
ages and cycles, yet would they fail to discharge the full
measure of gratitude I owe Thee for Thy grace and bounty in
having enabled me to believe in the Manifestation of Thy Divine
mercy, the Day-spring of Thy oneness, the Dawning-place of Thy
mighty signs and the Repository of the secrets of Thy
transcendent sovereignty in the midmost heart of the world.  "And
by whichsoever ye call upon Him, most beauteous are His Names"
(17:110). Likewise would they fail befittingly to fulfil the debt
of thanks I owe Thee for having removed from my eyes the veil
that obstructed my vision, for having caused me to hearken to the
melodies of the Birds of Holiness upon the branches of the Tree
of Immortality and for having given me to quaff the pure water of
the camphor cup from the hand of the Cupbearer of Thy gracious
providence in this most great, this most exalted, most holy,
blessed and august Manifestation.'

O thou who wingest thy flight in the spacious realms of the love
of God! Know thou that the knowledges and disciplines, the arts
and sciences which appeared in previous dispensations, when
compared to the divine questions, the eternal verities and the
universal mysteries which have become unveiled, manifest and
brilliant in their meridian glory in this resplendent Revelation,
are nothing more than allusions and metaphors, nay, they are
hardly better than superstitious fancies. For the all-embracing
universal Reality is, in the eyes of thy Lord, analogous to the
all-embracing human reality which passes in the course of its
early development through infancy, childhood and youth. Even
though these various stages may manifest certain of the
characteristics and virtues of man, yet what are these early
manifestations in comparison to the perfections of the mind, the
truths of the Kingdom and the mysteries of God, with which the
reality of man becomes plentifully endowed after reaching
maturity -- the period of its fullest expression?

For this reason thou must weigh all matters in the balance of
this Cause and heed not the idle talk of the blind in heart and
those who are captives of delusions and vain imaginations.  Such
talk is, to those possessed of insight, nothing more than
fanciful stories and empty tales.  Nay, rather thou shouldst
investigate all things in a methodical and scientific way, and by
clear proofs, perspicuous signs and incontrovertible evidences,
seek to discover the undisclosed verities and the hidden
mysteries which are concealed in the inmost heart of the
realities of the universe.  To those to whom God hath granted
insight, whose inner natures are illumined, whose outer natures
are refined, whose hearts are pure and whose minds are open and
receptive, it is not acceptable, in this great and majestic
cycle, to rely unquestioningly on the views of others in matters
such as these.  Conventional wisdoms and precepts based upon
illusion and fancy, and to which no knowledgeable, experienced
and intelligent person can reconcile himself, are today, in the
sight of the truly learned. nothing more than 'deranged dreams'.

Praise be to Him Who hath illumined men's minds with the light of
truth shining forth from the Dawning-place of Revelation.
Glorified be the Lord of Majesty for breaking down the barriers,
tearing asunder the veils, dispelling the darkness, bursting the
chains of allusion, cleaving the fetters of imagination, freeing
men's minds from the tyranny of conjecture, and liberating the
birds of thought in the apogee of human hearts, so that they may
soar with the wings of delight in the worlds of existence and
with penetrating insight rend the veils woven by the spiders of
fancy in these lofty chambers and high pavilions.

Know then, with regard to the mathematical sciences, that it was
only in this distinguished age, this great century, that their
scope was widened, their unresolved difficulties solved, their
rules systematized, and their diversity realized.  The
discoveries made by earlier philosophers and the views they held
were not established upon a firm basis or a sound foundation for
they wished to confine the worlds of God within the smallest
compass and narrowest limit and were quite unable to conceive
what lay beyond; even claiming that there was neither void nor
matter, but merely nothingness.  This view is at variance with
and contrary to all the divine truths and heavenly secrets.
Indeed, if thou dost compare the ideal world to the human world
and apply spiritual principles to physical matters thou wilt
discover that this view is flimsier than a spider's web, because,
just as the luminous spiritual worlds are sanctified above
computation or limitation, so too are the physical worlds in this
vast immensity of space.  This is a secret of which God hath
apprised His servants through His grace and mercy in order to
demonstrate the idleness of the fancies of those who disbelieve
in God, and to expose the baselessness of the arguments of those
who are wandering blindly in their heedlessness, that the edifice
they have built out of their vain imaginings may crumble and
their profitless pursuits be discredited and fall into disrepute.


For their eyes have been blinded from beholding the worlds of God
and their minds have fallen short of comprehending the mysteries
of the Kingdom in this resplendent Vision.  They believed that
these worlds were contained in this small circuit, which in
relation to the worlds of God is of no more account than the
black in the eye of an ant in an infinity of space, even as He
saith, and He speaketh the truth: 'None knoweth the hosts of thy
Lord, save Him.'

With regard to that which hath been mentioned concerning the
seven spheres and the seven heavens referred to in the Books
revealed by the Dawning-places of Light and Repositories of
Secrets in previous ages, such references were dictated by the
conventional wisdom prevailing in those times, for every cycle
hath its own characteristics which are determined by the
capacities of the people and their readiness to accept fresh
revelations of the truth from behind the veil.  All things are
ordained by God according to a given measure.  When the Prophets
spoke of the celestial spheres what they intended was no more
than the orbits of the planets falling within that greater world
that embraces the sun and its attendant planetary system.  For
the planets circling this sun are in seven degrees in respect to
mass, volume, visibility and brilliancy.  The orbit of the first
of these is one of the spheres of this solar world and one of the
heavens of finite extent that falls within the circumference of
this all-encompassing circle.  The same pattern is true for all
the brilliant stars shining in the face of the heavens, every one
of which is a sun with its own solar world containing planets and
satellites.  When thou gazeth at the planets with the naked eye,
without the interposition of magnifying mirrors, they will appear
to be in seven degrees.  The orbit or circuit of each of these
degrees is an upraised heaven and an encircling sphere in the
world of existence.

Know then that, as hath been clearly handed down in the accounts
of old, these great orbits and circuits fall within subtle,
fluid, clear, liquid, undulating and vibrating bodies, and that
the heavens are a restrained wave because a void is impossible
and inconceivable.  All that may be said is that the celestial
bodies and the material bodies of the ethereal regions differ in
respect of some of the substances and elements from which they
are constituted, the quantities and proportions of these that go
into their composition, the peculiar characteristics causing the
difference in the outward effects of these bodies, and the
properties that emanate from them in rich abundance.  The
celestial bodies that surround the material bodies also differ
one from another in respect of subtlety, fluidity, and weight.
It cannot be otherwise for a void is impossible.

The existence of a container implies the existence of something
contained; what is contained can hardly be other than a body, but
the bodies of the celestial spheres are in the utmost degree of
subtlety, lightness and fluidity as bodies may be of diverse
kinds:  solid like rocks, malleable like metals and minerals,
fluid like water and air.  Lighter still they may be of a kind
that ascends heavenwards, such as that which is used in
dirigibles; and lighter than all of these are fire, electricity
and lightning.  All of these are bodies in reality, but some of
them are weightless.  In like manner thy Lord hath created in
these vast heavens manifold bodies without limit or number, which
the minds of men can neither compute nor encompass.  Souls are
bewildered when they attempt to understand them and confounded by
a mere glimpse of them.

As for those who claim that the celestial spheres are massive,
solid  and contiguous with each other; that they are glassy,
transparent and penetrable to the light of other bodies; capable
of neither being cleft asunder nor welded back together; forever
impermeable and imperishable -- these thoughts are mere
suppositions and surmises made by people who have not understood
the meaning of the brilliant verse that clearly states:  'All
swim in a celestial sphere' (21:34, 36:40). The import of this
verse is clear inasmuch as the act of swimming cannot be
conceived of except in yielding, fluid, liquid bodies, and is
quite impossible in solid, resistant bodies. Look, then, with
discerning vision into this clear, conclusive and manifest proof.

Consider the fancies of the philosophers and observe how they
wandered distractedly in the wilderness of philosophical
preconceptions and erroneous beliefs for which the Mighty,
Self-Subsistent King hath sent down no proof.  As for the view
that the earth revolves around the sun, that it is one of the
bright planets of this solar system, and that the diurnal
movement that brings about sunrise and sunset is caused by the
rotation of the earth about its axis -- these are not modern
ideas nor discoveries of recent times.  On the contrary, the
first person to state that the earth moved about the sun was the
sage Pythagoras, one of the five pillars of wisdom, a defender of
its sanctuary and unfolder of its secrets.  He it was who
recognized this truth 500 years before the advent of Christ and
reasoned that the sun was a center in relation to the earth,
because of its fieriness.  He was followed in this view by the
philosopher Plato in his latter days.  Aristarchus composed a
treatise in 280 B.C. in which he affirmed that the earth revolves
about the sun and around its own axis.  However, he did not found
this view upon clear evidences, convincing arguments, and
positive proofs derived from the laws of geometry and the
principles of mathematics; rather he based it on a mere
presentiment, an apprehension, an intuition.  Most of the sages
of old, though, because they viewed the visible world with their
physical eyes and perceived it with their outward senses only,
when they observed the stars and the heavenly bodies, concluded
that it was the sun that was in motion and the earth that was
still. Among them was the Alexandrian, Ptolemy, Roman citizen,
renowned for his knowledge of astronomy and history.  He was a
professor at the school of Alexandria in the second century A.D.
He chose the foundation of his system from a body of ancient
principles, founded upon it his observations, and drew up an
almanac based on the idea that the sun is in motion and the earth
is still.  Because of the sway and influence of the Roman people
and their dominion over all nations, his system became well-known
and the fame of his almanac and astronomical observations spread
far and wide throughout the earth. He wrote a book on the science
of astronomy and mathematics called Almagest.

In the first centuries of Islam, Al-Farabi translated this book
into Arabic, and the views it propounded became well known to
Muslim scholars. These views they followed and imitated without
careful scrutiny and investigation and without fully
comprehending the meanings of some of the Divine verses.  For He
hath said, and His word is the truth: 'All swim in a celestial
sphere.' In this blessed verse it was clearly established that
all the brilliant stars and heavenly bodies throughout the
expanse of these lofty heavens, this vast, limitless space, and
this earth too, are in motion, travelling in their orbits and
swimming in their spheres and circuits. ~lore grave than their
misinterpretation of the preceding verse was the inadequacy of
their attempts to interpret the other blessed verse, which
indicates that the sun moves about its own center and axis.  He
hath said:  'And the sun moves in a fixed place of its own'
(36:38). Their minds were baffled, their souls perplexed, and
their faculties unequal to the task of perceiving its meanings,
for they wished to make it conform to the rules of Ptolemy,
mentioned above, and to harmonize it with the almanac which he
had drawn up.  They were not, however, able to reconcile the two
texts and for this reason had to have recourse to implausible
explanations, such as the claim advanced by some that the words
'in a fixed place of its own' were originally 'it has no fixed
place', the word for 'in' having become mistakenly confused with
the word for 'no' [in the Arabic text]; or the claim made by
others that by 'fixed place' is meant the Day of Judgement, at
which time the sun will cease from its orbiting and motion --
this despite the fact that it is plainly stated in this verse
that the sun's motion is about its own axis and center.

Know then that those mathematical questions which have stood the
test of scrutiny and about the soundness of which there is no
doubt are those that are supported by incontrovertible and
logically binding proofs and by the rules of geometry as applied
to astronomy; that are based on observations of the stars and
careful astronomical research, and are in conformity with the
principles of the universal themes expounded in the divine
sciences.  For it is by applying the outward world to the inner,
the high to the low, the small to the large, the general to the
particular that, with abundant clearness, it becometh apparent
that the new rules arrived at by the science of astronomy are in
closer accord with the universal divine principles than the other
erroneous theories and propositions, as we have explained and
illustrated.

The observations of Copernicus and his almanac have been more
accurately compiled and more thoroughly and carefully researched
than the other almanacs. Living at the turn of the fifteenth
century A.D., he pursued his astronomical observations for a
period of 36 years before publicly announcing the now famous
system of laws that were the fruit of his studies; and were it
not for our wish to be brief and concise we would have explained
for thee the details of the system and summarized its
repercussions.  The guidance we have given on this subject,
however, is sufficient for those with a seeing eye and clear
insight.

Say:  Exalted be the Self-Subsistent King, by Whose manifestation
the veil of fancy hath been torn asunder; by which the sincere
ones have dispensed with all else but Him through love for His
manifest Beauty, a Beauty that revealeth the realities of things,
seen and unseen, and exposeth the fanciful misconceptions and
erroneous beliefs in the sciences; by which those that long to
behold His Face have become apprised of the Hidden Secret, the
Concealed and Treasured Symbol; by which they have soared on the
wings of penetrating vision to the apex of reunion, the
well-spring of happiness, and the station of blissful
contentment, heard the sweet melodies of the birds on the boughs
of the forests of revelation, bathed at the pure spring, drunk
from the oceans of life in the world of light, and become
intoxicated from the cup tempered at the camphor fountain in this
manifest and resplendent Day, calling on their Lord in
soul-entrancing accents, the like of which ear hath not heard
amidst the gardens and meadows of Paradise, saying:  'I call upon
Thee, O my God and my Beloved, with the tongue of my inmost
spirit, with my face set towards the Day-Spring of Thy Unity and
the Dawning-Place of the Sun of Thy Sublime Oneness, sweetening
my breath with praise of Thee and thanks to the Center of Thy
Divine mercy, for having created me, undeserving as I am, by Thy
heavenly favor, in this majestic cycle and unique manifestation.
For this is the Day which Thou hast singled out from amongst all
ages for the dawning of the Sun of Thy Truth, whose brilliant
rays illumine all the horizons, the Day in which Thou hast
showered forth Thy grace, made perfect Thy proof and fulfilled
Thy testimony, the Day in which Thou hast perfected Thy bestowals
and bounties unto such of Thy creatures as are wholly devoted
unto Thee.  Verily, Thou hast honored them by attainment to that
Day for which the chosen ones of God, i~ the remoteness of their
separation, would have sacrificed their spirits, yearning to
inhale a single breath of the fragrances spread abroad in such a
Day, and longing to behold traces of the lights that shine forth
above its heaven.

Thou, in truth, hast crowned me, through Thy gracious favor, in
the midmost heart of creation, with this luminous diadem and
seated me upon the throne of Thy love amidst all the peoples of
the earth.  And Thou hast aided me to remain steadfast in Thy
Cause, through which the mightiest powers amongst the concourse
of thy creation were made to shake and tremble, and the
foundations of all beings in the realms of invention and creation
to quake.  I ask Thee, O King of the seen and the unseen, by
Thine Ancient Beauty and the radiance of Thy Holy Countenance and
Wondrous Being, to preserve us from vain imaginings and evil
whisperings, and to assist us to be persevering and constant,
firm and unwavering in Thy Cause.  Thou, verily, art the Great
Giver, the All-Bountiful, the Most Compassionate!'

'Abdu'l-Baha




=END=


Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 07:36:03 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bryan Stover 
Subject: House of Worship, Ashkhabad

Friends,

Perhaps a Talismanian might care to assist this gentleman?

Cheers,   Bryan

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

>To: "Baha'i Announce" 
>Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:00:41 -0500
>From: Jeff Lavezzo 
>Subject: House of Worship, Ashkhabad
>
>Dear Friends,
>I am currently working on an independent project at the University of
>Virginia School of Architecture to document in a computer model the former
>House of Worship of Ashkhabad (Isqabad), Turkmenistan.  Any information or
>leads to information on this historical and holy building would be greatly
>appreciated.  This first Mashriqu'l-Adhkar of the Baha'i World existed only
>from 1912 till about 1945 and had many unique features owing to its location
>and the strength of the local community.
>Warm Baha'i Greetings,
>Jeff Lavezzo
>U.Va. School of Architecture
>jll9w@virginia.edu
>



wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
      Bryan Stover, Fayetteville AR Baha'i Library
             (501)839-3588

 See the "Album of Views" and "Baha'i Graphics Gems" at
             
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm






=END=


From: "QUANTA  DAWNLIGHT" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 08:51:32 EST
Subject: RE: Male and female attributes

Dear Hannah,

I agree wholeheartedly about this proof reading stuff.  In fact,
I realize more and more that I should even begin to *proof
thinking*.  As you may have noticed I am very impulsive and
99% of the stuff I sent, are random thoughts and quick responses.

As far as the gender in language is concerned, I should know better
because in my language there is no he/she/it. There is only "O"
which refers to male, female and neutral.  So, feminists (BTW there
is a term I find unpleasant. It is like saying racists to me) in
Turkey can't find fault in language. However, they deal with plenty
of sexism in other areas of life. English is another story. But,
in the sentence I was concerned with it does say "woman" clearly.
It reminded me of the infinite number of times I heard my dad saying
to my brother "don't cry only girls cry, are you a girl?" Well, it
turns out now according to my mother I behaved more brave than all
the males in the family combined, with whom I had to sit apart when in
a mosque. They got the best seats, near the Mullah while I sat in the
back with women. So, tapes are playing back my
friend. This is one of the reasons I turned an aetheist in my early
twenties while living in Germany. Religion left a bad taste in me.


Please pray for this soul who is suffering from spiritual anemia, right now.
With God's grace my hemoglobin will raise soon. Isn't wonderful to
see the phases an individual goes through in a few months time?
BTW, how is Robert Johnston from down yonder. There is a wonderful
story of metamorphosis.  I think I cought his combative flue though! 
Now, if I had no religious affiliation, I would not judge myself this
way. Isn't true? I am still thinking, randomly.


love,
quanta





. Man and Woman do not mean the same things to
Baha'u'llah that they do to us."

I meant to say "Nonetheless, the Manifestation, as Mirror, etc." I should have
proofread it.

Hannah

The Artist Formerly Known As Cary  :-)


----------
From: 	owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Hannah E. Reinstein
Sent: 	Tuesday, 06 February, 1996 21:06 PM
To: 	talisman@indiana.edu; QUANTA  DAWNLIGHT
Subject: 	RE: Male and female attributes

A few personal meditations on the Creator as genderless . . .





=END=


From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, jarmstro@sun1.iusb.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Sexual Imagery not just Male
Date: 07 Feb 1996 08:35:30 GMT

> Er ...  What is going on here?

Steve -
That by using the kind of logic that Jackson was referring to can be used to
'prove' that women are by nature 'conservative' and men, 'liberal'.  kWhile
on the face of it, the arguments appear rational, they require the acceptance
of some un-stated ideas that are never proven but simply accepted.  While
this is acceptable if they are acknowledged, to claim that research 'proves'
an idea when certain necessary parts of the argument are based solely on a
philosophy is at best sloppy and at worse fraudulent.  Unfortunately, this is
very common, even in respectable journals.

Don C



He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:35:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: power and antiliberalism
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "K. Paul Johnson" 
Cc: "Juan Cole" , "Talisman" 

Paul K. Johnson writes:

>According to Richard C. Logan:
>> "balancing of interests".  You also speak of "Rights".  Rights are a very
>> good thing in a world bereft of learning in the latest the message of
>> God.  I believe this was always the context in which Baha'u'llah and the
>> master approved of such things.
>
>Therefore, in the New World Order who needs rights?
>
>> The pattern of a New World Order has been established.  As the Apostle
>> Paul has said, "When I was a child I spake as a child..Now it is time to
>> put away childish things."  One need not cling to the security blanket of
>> free speech and so forth in a New World Order.
>
>Yumping Yiminy!  At least here's one Baha'i who brandishes his
>totalitarianism rather than pretending it's something else!
>>
>> Finally, why would one insist on projecting ones fears of Middle Eastern
>> tyranny on this evolving, organic Order?  Baha'u'llah has infused it with
>> His DNA pattern that is irresistible--"Day" shall not be "Followed by
>> night".
>
>So you say, buddy, so you say!  Night is already here IMO, in
>sentiments like these.

My Dear Sir,

You don't believe in what I believe in, apparently.

Your petulant response lacked all critical content.  Please do me the
favor of thinking about what I'm saying rather than simply reacting to
it.  I feel certain you can do better than this.  I assume you consider
yourself an intellectual.  If that is so let us see the workings of your
mind in this matter not simply your prejudice.

Richard


Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


From: "K. Paul Johnson" 
Subject: Christ triumphant?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 10:45:42 EST


Two threads on Talisman are related, at least in my mind, to
the rediscovery of Christianity, in fact the embrace of it,
that I've been experiencing in the past year.  First is the
liberty thread in which Richard Logan recently said that free
speech was appropriate only for the primitive, pre-Baha'i
civilization we now have, but which will hopefully soon be gone
along with free speech.  This brings to mind just how much
freedom is an essential element of Christianity, more so than
the other Western religions; Buddhism is similarly
freedom-oriented vis-a-vis the other Indic traditions.
A Cayce reading addresses this theme, which inspired some of my
reflections:

There has also come a teacher who was bold enough to declare
himself as the son of the living God.  He set no rules of
appetite.  He set no rules of ethics, other than "as ye would
that men should do to you, do ye even so the them," and
"inasmuch as ye do it unto the least of these, thy brethren, ye
do it unto thy Maker."  He declared that the kingdom of heaven
is within each individual entity's consciousnesss, to be
attained, to be aware of through meditating upon the fact that
God is the Father of every soul....Here, then, ye find a
friend, a brother, a companion.  As He gave, "I call ye not
servants, but brethren."  For, as many as believe, to them He
gives power to become the children of God, the Father; joint
heirs with this Jesus, the Christ, in the knowledge and in the
awareness of this presence abiding ever with those who set this
ideal before them.(357-13)

Reading this now, after 4 years as a Baha'i followed by 17 as a
Theosophist, makes me wonder how it was ever possible to
abandon the straight path of Christ for the crooked ones of
a)authoritarian legalism and b)esotericist elitism.  But at
some point, I became convinced that Christianity was defunct,
passe, superseded by some more up-to-date message or other.  In
fact, from the vantage point of middle age, neither Baha'i nor
Theosophy look at all more satisfactory to me personally or at
all likely to supersede Christianity historically.  The
personal part I'll leave aside; as for Christianity's
historical vitality, a recent study I did brought that home in
spades.  When I searched for the number of books published
about various nineteenth-century religions, Mormonism led the
pack with 12,000 or so, followed by Adventism at 8000,
Christian Science at about 4000, Theosophy at 3500, Baha'i
1300, Radhasoami only 100 or so.  Even admitting the Western
bias of the OCLC database, this shows Christianity to have
vastly more vitality than any of the new non-Christian faiths.
If new forms of Christianity are more successful in numbers
(Mormonism and Adventism) than is Baha'i, and vastly more
successful in literary productivity, what does this say about
humanity's need or desire for something that claims to
supersede Christianity?

The other thread this addresses therefore is the Bruce vs.
Baha'is discussion.  If it is true that Baha'is tend to
denature Buddhism when they discuss it, it is even more so true
of Christianity.  To make Jesus into a lawgiver, rather than a
liberator, is to distort his very essence.  The Procrustean bed
of prophetic legalism will fit Christ no more than it will
Buddha.



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 07:59:21 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: naming of babies
To: talisman@indiana.edu

---- Begin Forwarded Message


Sherperson?


Dear Bev and Talisman Baby naming committee.
Sherman says that the little person might grow up,a little confused
anyway but even more so if you could not make up your minds.A little
loving direction can be helpful in child development. Sherman says you
can always name the little person, if it is a girl, after Bobo 'the
Mighty Shadow'his buddy and best friend after all she is a girl.
Sherman's humble scribe
Derek Cockshut



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 08:25:40 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Bosch anyone? (if not going, just delete)

Hello all, I just have a few minutes here to ask: Who is going to Bosch for
the Mystical Conference???   I would like some idea as to how many and who
will be in San Jose airport to travel out to Bosch?  email me privately
Thanks again.

Well, I have to go pack to move again.  My house mate is selling this house,
and it will be on the market as of Monday.   I can't do a job search while
there are potential buyers looking over the property...  So, I am packing,
and hoping that I can find a place to stay for the next 3 weeks.   I am
looking....   I have a place to stay after March 2.

Warmly, Margreet




=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:30:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: resend of sinaic imagery-sorry
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Sandy" , "Talisman" 

Dear Sandy,

I saw you last night at Feast on the Baha'i Newsreel (vol. 6, No. , Jan.
1996 34 min).  You were bewitching in the  "Association for Baha'i
Studies:  19 years of progree" segment.  I hope I will be see more more
of you now that your name is up in lights.

Richard

Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 03:54 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Megha Shyam 
Subject: Jesus 2000 - details

Dear friends:

Here are the details of the conference that we have
access to:

Feb 8 8:00 PM    Jesus Christ, Movie Star - a video
presentation introduced by Prof. Harvey Cox,
Divinity School at Harvard

Feb 9  8:45 AM   Jesus at 2000 presented by
Prof. Fred Burnham off Trinity Institute and
Prof. Marcus Borg of Oregon State University

Feb 9  9:15 AM   From Galilean Jew to the
Face of God: The Pre-Easter and Post-Easter
Jesus, Prof. Marcus Borg of Oregon State
University

Feb 9, 11:00 AM  Jesus and Kingdom:
Peasants and Scribes in Earliest Christianity
by Professor John Dominic Crossan of Depaul University

Feb 9, 2:00 PM    Jesus, Judisam and Early
Christianity by Prof. Alan Segal of Bernard College
and Columbia University

Feb 9  3:45 PM    You are the Christ! Second Century
Views of Jesus by Prof. Karen Jo Torjesen of Claremont
Colleges in California

Feb 10  9:00 AM   Jesus and Generation X by Prof. Harvey
Cox of Harvard Divinity School

Feb 10  11:00 AM  Jesus and World's Religions
by Prof. Houston Smith of Syracuse University and
UC Berkeley in California

Feb 10  2:30 PM   Concluding Panel - topic What do you
find most striking (or appealing, challeging or disturbing)
about Jesus?

The entire conference will be beamed to some 225 down links
around the USA.

Our family will tape all telecasts available to us via the local
university channel.  As I said earlier, if there is enough interst,
we can duplicate them at cost and shipping.  If you are interested
in this, send me e-mail privately.

Thanks

Megha Shyam
meghas@sparcom.com






=END=


From: slynch@interserv.com
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:35:21 -0800
Subject: Spiritual Retreat
To: talisman@indiana.edu

Dear Friends,

After the Conference at Bosch, Feb. 23-25, I wish to spend three or four days
in a spiritual retreat(American Indian would be great).  Do you know of any,
not limited to American Indian, in California.  You may leave messages at
slynch@interserv.com.

Thank you and I will see you there.

Amir



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:37:31 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: naming of babies
To: talisman@indiana.edu

---- Begin Forwarded Message
Return-Path: 
Dear Talisman Baby naming committee
I have already asked Carmen to take this up with you as Bev suggest
Sherperson not myself I believe you got my views on the matter.
Thank-you


>How could you explain to your child in later life that they were named

>after
>a cat?  (Even if Sherman is a very distinguished cat.)  Would the
>feminine
>version be Shirley?

No, Derek, surely not Shirley--Shermine, Shermina, Shermetta, how about
Sherhelmina (like Wilhelmina).  Shermaine?

I had a great uncle named Stanley Tucker who, the story goes, once
became
very offended with his sister (my grandmother) and her children because
they
named a cat "Tannie," and he thought they were making fun of him.
"Tannie"
referred to the cat's tan color, but he thought they were mocking
"Stanley."

Best,
Carmen





=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:23:13 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Daily Secret Message
To: burl@bmi.org

My dear Burl
I have read again Linda s secret message to everybody on Talisman
except John. I assume it must be secret because Linda was revealing
the intimate snaps of Walbridge home life. Apparently that enables
you to get in touch with your feminine side so let Britt know. Does
that what getting in touch with you feminine side mean informing your
wife.
What happens when a chap is single he can not tell his wife he doesn t
have one.
Thats a great problem for a woman if she wants to get in touch with her
feminine side, does she call her mother?I thought women were feminine
any way and I prefer them to men any day in fact any part of a 24 hour
period.
Why should we want a religion that is all male perish the thought.
Do you think Ahang meant we have to build sort of mens locker room
style Baha i communities. I have seen the state of the single male
staff cabins
at Bosch they do not ooze spirituality < rather something else> except
just before Linda s < not Walbridge> inspection tour that happens every
two weeks.
The single female cabins are always wonderful so my wife says who I am
to argue. I think feminine is spiritual and masculine something out
there
 on the vine

But back to Linda that is a campaign call. I thought you were a walrus
and I was a shrimp what happened?. Now I am mad and you are a squirrel
that is confusing. I think Linda should allow John to sleep in their
bed
again.Ever since the poor chap forgot to record that TV program he has
been banished
Sleeping under the stairs is no place for any man as you well know
especially
with the family pet..Also their dog the toilet drink from Guli has
fleas, remember
 that is the mutt that Linda saved from the pound. As a reward it is
eating shoes and making
holes in the carpets.  John blames us for the non-respectable Talisman
forum.
Well you and I were with his respectable academic friends in San
Francisco
bun fights in the restaurants, playing tag and leapfrogging in the
Hotel foyer.
yelling we are the Tally boys I blush as I recall it Uh! respectable my
eye.
You did not bring your teenage leather clad nubile female twins cousins
 as your personal assistants to ABS and neither did I . How many
Talisman types
did that is the question of the hour. Remember the ritual tearing up of
their
colored ribbons as a mark of Talisman rebellion against authority where
 I ask was the respect then.Yes Burl you and I are a small island of
sanity
in a crazy world and all because the Lady loved Milk Tray.
Your Best Friend
Derek
Lets keep this posting a big secret you know sometimes our private
messages
 get on Talisman.





=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:10:31 -0800 (PST)
From: John Graham 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Finnegans Wake and Quran

"...
   There is an apocalyptic or eschatological style: every Sura is an
epiphany and a portent, a warning, "plain tokens that haply we
may take heed" (XXIV, v.1).  The apocalyptic style is *totum
simul*, simultaneous totality, the whole in every part. Hodgson
on the Koran: "almost every element which goes to make up its
message is somehow present in any given passage."
Simultaneous totality, as in *Finnegans Wake*, or more
generally in what Umberto Eco called "The Poetics of the Open
Work": "We can see it as an infinite contained within finiteness.
The work therefore has infinite aspects, because each of them,
and any moment of it, contains the totality of the work." Eco is
trying to characterize a revolution in the aesthetic sensibility of
the West: we are the first generation in the West able to read the
Koran, if we are able to read *Finnegans Wake*. In fact Carlyle's
reaction to the Koran--"a wearisome confused jumble, crude,
incondite; endless iterations, long-windedness, entanglement"- is
our first reaction to Finnegans Wake. The affinity between this
most recalcitrant of sacred texts and this most avant-garde of
literary experiments is a sign of our times. Joyce was fully aware
of the connection, as Atherton shows in the most exciting
chapter of *The  Books at the Wake*; I particularly like his
discovery in the *Wake* of the titles of 111 of the 114 Suras.

   In both the Koran and *Finnegans Wake*, this effect of
simultaneous totality involves systematic violation of the classic
rules of unity, propriety and harmony; ; bewildering changes of
subject; abrupt juxtaposition of incongruities.... The whole
texture is one of interruption (Joyce's "enterruption"); collision
(Joyce's "collideorscape"); abrupt collage, or bricolage, of
disconnected ejaculations, *disjecta membra*, miscellaneous
fragments. The widely accepted tradition is that the Koran was
collected, after the death of the Prophet, not only from "the
hearts of men" but also from pieces of parchment or papyrus, flat
stones, palm-leaves, shoulder-blades and ribs of animals, pieces
of leather and wooden boards. In the words of *Finnegans
Wake*: "A bone, a pebble, a ramskin; chip them, chap them, cut
them up allways; leave them to terracook in the muttheringpot"
(FW, p. 20)

   Hence it does not matter in what order you read the Koran: it is
all there all the time; and it is supposed to be all there all the
time in your mind or at the back of your mind, memorized and
available for appropriate quotation and collage into your
conversation, or your writing, or your action. Hence the beautiful
inconsequentiality of the arrangement of the Suras: from the
longest to the shortest. In this respect the Koran is more avant-
garde  than *Finnegans Wake*, in which the overall
organization is entangled in both linear and cyclical patterns
which it is trying to transcend.

  Every Sura is an epiphany and portent, and therefore not
beautiful but sublime. Again He speaks in thunder and in fire!
What the thunder said. Dumbfounding. Wonderstruck us as a
thunder, yunder. Well, all be dumbed! (FW, pp. 47, 262). In the
Koran as in *Finnegans Wake*, there is a destruction of human
language.
...
   In Islamic apologetics the miraculous character of the Koran is
self-evident in the immediate effect of its style, its *idjaz*,
literally "the rendering incapable, powerlessness"; the
overwhelming experience of manifest transcendence, compelling
surrender to a new world vision. The bewilderment is part of the
message: "through the windr of a wondr in a wildr is a weltr as a
wirbl of a warbl is a world" (FW p. 597).

   How do you start a new civilization--in the seventh, or the
twentieth century C.E., with all that history weighing like an Alp
on the brains of the living? Out of the rubble of the old; there is
no other way. "He dumptied the wholeborrow of rubbages on to
soil here" (FW, p.17). Massignon speaks of the farrago of
folklore (*fatras folkloriste*) in the Koran. First you trash or
junk the old--as in *Finnegans Wake*, or the Koran--reducing
pre-existent traditions to rubble. Muslim piety, for whom the
Koran is the suprahistorical word of God, is troubled by the
question of the relation of the Koran to pre-existent traditions.
Western historcism with its well-honed methods of source
criticism--Quellenforschung--is only too delighted to lose itself
in tracing the Koran to its sources, with the usual nihilistic
result: the Koran is reduced to a meaningless confusion.
...
   Sura XVIII, and the Koran as a whole, like Finnegans Wake
shows us pre-existent traditions, Jewish, Christian, Hellenistic,
pulverized into condensed atoms or etyms of meaning: "the
abnihilisation of the etym" (FW, p. 353 ) Out of this dust the
world is to be made new. "We are once amore as babes
awondering in a wold made fresh where with the hen in the
storyaboot we start from scratch" (FW, p 336). In the Words of
Iqbal:

                                 the Koran-
a hundred new worlds lie within its verses,
whole centuries are involved in its moments....
A believing servant himself is a sign of God,
every world to his breast is as a garment;
and when one world grows old upon his bosom,
the Koran gives him another world!

..."

From N.O. Brown's address at a conference devoted to the
theme: Facing Apocalypse. The conference took place June 1983
at Salve Regina College, Newport, Rhode Island.





=END=


From: "K. Paul Johnson" 
Subject: Petulance
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 11:56:47 EST

Having been described as petulant, I looked it up in the
American Heritage Dictionary:
1. Unreasonably irritable or ill-tempered; peevish.
2. Contemptuous in speech or behavior.

I plead guilty to #2 and not guilty to #1.  Yes, I was and am
contemptuous of the attitude, expressed by anyone of any
affiliation, that "civil rights are for a stage of evolution to
be superseded by the global domination of my belief system."
Whether stated by a Marxist-Leninist, or a fundamentalist
Muslim or Christian, or a Baha'i, this is not the kind of attitude against
which one can present any reasoned arguments.  You either "get"
the *eternal* value of civil rights, or you don't.  So I don't apologize
for expressing contempt, since there was nothing personal in my
comments.

But is it "unreasonably irritable" or ill-tempered or peevish
to express the conviction that the attitude under consideration
is dangerous, dark and dreadful?  Based on human history, I'd
say not in the least.  Of course, when Hitler or Stalin or the
Ayatollah said "those corrupt Western Europeans and Americans
with their bourgeous democratic values will be buried in the
dust of history-- we've got something better," it is obvious
in retrospect that they did not.  The Thousand-Year Reich, or
the triumph of the proletariat, or the universal reign of
the shari`a, all draw upon the same totalitarian element of
the collective unconscious as seems to express itself among
certain Baha'is.  To say simply, "you couldn't trust them to
take away your civil rights, but you can trust us to, because
that was then, this is now, and we're different"-- what kind of
reasoned response is possible to this?  "So you say, buddy" is
really about the best I can do, but any suggestions of a better
response are welcome.



=END=


From: "K. Paul Johnson" 
Subject: Re: power and antiliberalism
To: "Richard C. Logan" 
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 12:33:07 EST
Cc: jrcole@umich.edu, talisman@indiana.edu

Just happened upon this in a review of Our Times, a new
illustrated history of the 20th century, made up of essays by
many renowned authors:

But most impressive by far is the essay for the 1930's: Stephen
Spender, in what must have been one of the last things he
wrote, on totalitarianism.  After addressing what
totalitarianism is, and its rise between the wars, he moves
into a heartfelt account of his own relations with it, from his
conversion to Communism early in the decade to his renunciation
of it, begun in Spain, a few years later.  This makes "the
totalitarian impulse, the craving for absolute order in times
of frightening chaos," as he calls it, real and palpable and
understandable.

--and therefore recommended reading for any Baha'i who looks
forward to a day when such "childish things" as freedom of
speech can be abandoned as we enter the "maturity" of a "day
that shall not be followed by night."

suggestion: the people who are most intent on assuring you
that you have nothing to fear from granting them absolute power
over your life are the ones from whom you have the most to fear.



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:32:46 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Jesus 2000

While in Turkey in 1993, we visited the house of Maryam near Selcuk
(Ephesus) and heard rumour of a huge "harmonic convergence" sort of
phenomena planned to take place there in the year 2000.  Maybe we can get a
Talisman Tour Group together and converge... Problem yok.

Regards,
LuAnne




=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:32:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Petulance
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "K. Paul Johnson" ,
        "Talisman" 

Dear Brother,

I don't expect an apology just understanding.

Richard

Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


From: "Lora McCall" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date:          Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:06:11 CST
Subject:       masculine/feminine

Dear Ahang,

Do you see what you have done in the first paragraph of your post to
Bev?  I'll quote it back to you.

> I'm sorry for having pushed a hot bottom, but for now the burden
> of proof is on those who claim that indeed in His Writings,
> Baha'u'llah adopts feminine voice.  With all due respect to
> everyone, I like to see less emotion and more documented
> evidence in discussing this subject.

First, the Freudian slip "hot bottom" for "hot button" made me laugh.
Maybe one would have to be an American woman to think that's funny.
I wish Linda were on-line.  :)

Second, you have done the classic patriarchal dismissal of Bev's
voice by saying "less emotion, more evidence."  Really, Ahang, that's
textbook stuff.  Cold, rational, authoritative.  Nothing but the
facts, ma'am.  This kind of statement has been used to silence the
feminine voice forever.  Someone get Carol Gilligan on-line, she'll
have something to say.  And believe me, it will be full of evidence,
however not as unemotional as you might like.  Unfortunately, I don't
have time to research my topic and make a reasoned argument right
now.  (Yeah, I know, that sounds like a cop out -- I CAN be
reasonable, REALLY I can.  It just takes more time )

Third, Terry -- where are you?  Ahang has just issued a challenge:

     for "... those who claim that indeed in His Writings, Baha'u'llah
     adopts feminine voice." prove it to me!  (paraphrase)  :)

*Claim* indeed!  After Terry publishes the BahaMaiden Dialogues, we
can all read the book and be convinced.  Until then, I can only
emphatically refuse to accept your statement:

> Baha'u'llah's voice is always masculine in His Writings.

Terry would argue (MUCH more eloquently and rationally than I will)
that all the "Say" passages are Baha'u'llah speaking in the feminine
voice.  I happen to agree.  The Maid of Heaven speaks to Baha'u'llah
in the Siyah Chal.  "This Eternal Countenance, She came with
snow-white hand from the Divine command."  She is the Voice of God,
the Logos, the Word (Lahut level).  All things generate from that
level, therefore one could say that they come from Her (even though
they're all *one* at Lahut -- one could say that in this
dispensation She represents all the manifestations.)  She tells
Baha'u'llah what to say, and whenever He has something very important
to say to us, He prefaces it with "Say:" and that's when He is using
the feminine voice.

If we have the courage to look at His Writings as a dialogue, this
makes so much sense.  It is mind-bogglingly inclusive -- now for the
first time in history, the feminine voice is validated.  God really
IS both masculine and feminine (and a whole lot more that we can't
even fathom).  And the world's equilibrium is upset with this most
wondrous system!!!

The feminine voice and women as a group historically have been
excluded from the inner sanctum.  We have not been allowed access to
God except through the masculine voice/men.  That is why Baha'u'llah
cannot POSSIBLY be only speaking in the masculine voice. If He were
excluding half the population in such a way, how could He possibly
have something unique to say to the world now?

We could have just republished the Koran.  (I'm being facetious)

You continue:

> In order to prove me wrong, all folks have to do is to come up
> with a single instance where He clearly has adopted a feminine
> persona.  How difficult of search can that be?  I'm a very
> reasonable person and will listen to evidence, but its got to be
> straight forward so that we can all see and agree upon it, not
> some hand waving argument like "removing of veils" or worse yet,
> arguing the Guardian's translations can't be trusted because
> editors played with them, etc.

Ahang, besides using some sarcasm (which is a dismissal technique)
you have placed lots of qualifications on your agreement to "listen
to evidence".  What I hear you saying is that as long as our evidence
agrees with what you already believe, then you will listen. Eeeek.
That sounds pretty closed-minded and not at all in accordance with
justice and equity. This is what women and proponents of the validity
of the feminine voice have been shoved up against for 200 years (or
more).  How can we consult, if it is demanded that the results of
the consultation be set within a framework that doesn't have room for
the feminine perspective in the first place? The answer is that we
can't.  And that's the whole point -- to silence the feminine voice.

But it isn't going to work anymore. Why?  Because Baha'u'llah is here
to stay.  :)   And sometimes He speaks in the language of the
law-giver and sometimes in the language of the truth-seeker and the
mystic (the masculine and the feminine voices???)  I believe so.

And He says, "As the Most Exalted Lord She hath come!"

So much for reasoned argument -- I'm feeling rather emotional!  :)

Love, Lora



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:29:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: power and antiliberalism
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "K. Paul Johnson" 
Cc: "Juan Cole" , "Talisman" 


>suggestion: the people who are most intent on assuring you
>that you have nothing to fear from granting them absolute power
>over your life are the ones from whom you have the most to fear.

Brother Paul,

I never said we   "have nothing to fear from granting them absolute power
over your life".  What I was expressing was in regard to something quite
different.  What I was aiming at, was expressed quite lucidly by
Baha'u'llah, and I quote from Professor Cole's own translation:

>Adorn thyself with My character, in such wise
>that should anyone treat thee unjustly thou wouldst take no heed of
>him, nor oppose him.  Leave him to the judgment of thy Lord, the
>Powerful, Omnipotent and Self-Subsisting.  Be at all times a wronged
>one, for this is one of My attributes, though none but the sincere are
>aware of it.  Verily, the sighs of patience uttered by one wronged are
>more precious to God than any other deed, did ye but know.

When enough people take to heart that message ( I fervently believe they
will) we WILL have justice in the world.  I can only pity the depressing
view that we WILL NOT.  I know you don't hold the same view as Baha'is
aspire to,  but at least give credit where credit is due, as a fellow
human being,  if nothing else.  Don't we all want a better world for
children and ourselves to live in?  This in my opinion is not a
competition between Theosophists or anyone else.  We all have the same
needs and at some point trust is going to have to count.

Please don't assume that I am a Fascist simply because I believe
humankind will go beyond its present condition.  Is that really so bad?
Paul you are my brother, and I speak to you in all sincerity.  I know we
are all fallible but you must understand--I'm a gourmet of human
behavior, and I will accept nothing less than everything Krishna, Buddha,
Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah have promised.

I am famished and I'm ready for the meal.  Are you?

Richard


Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


From: "K. Paul Johnson" 
Subject: Re: Petulance
To: "Richard C. Logan" 
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 13:41:23 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

Dear Brother,

Why don't we approach it this way-- you try to state your
opinion about freedom of speech in a way that won't send chills
down the spine of a non-Baha'i, and I'll try not to be flooded
by anxiety or respond by immediately bringing up everything else that
provokes the same feelings.  Deal?

Fraternally,
Paul



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:41:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Mark Foster 
To: bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, bahai@intuition.org
Subject: Another New Baha'i-oriented List

Beloved,

I have just started another Baha'i-oriented list. It is called:

The Baha'i Science of Reality List

The focus will be specifically on the model of reality given in the
Baha'i Teachings - especially (but not exclusively) as it has been
explained by such dear souls as Marian Lippitt, Henry Weil, John
Hatcher, Emogene Hoag, etc., etc.

All are invited to join - either as active participants or as lurkers.
This list is not intended to conflict with the other list I own (Baha'i
Studies), which has a more general function.

To subscribe, send the following message:

subscribe science-of-reality realname

To:

listserv@listserv.aol.com

To post messages to the list, send them to:

science-of-reality@listserv.aol.com

With loving greetings,

Mark Foster
Baha'i Science of Reality listowner



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 12:07 PST
To: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Daily Secret Message
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

>>Do you think Ahang meant we have to build sort of mens locker room
>style Baha'i communities?

   I hope not. We tried that for a while in our community, but found the
towel-snapping during consultation most distracting.  I still have a few welts.



*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************




=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 12:07 PST
To: "K. Paul Johnson" 
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Petulance
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

>K. Paul hit the bullseye (Richard being the bull) in his
post-petulant-post. The actual teachings of the Baha'i Faith, if added to
the discussion, would find their weight firmly on K.Paul's side of the scale.

 Take note of this from Abdul-Baha:
 "Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the
old forms of despotism.  Under an autocratic government the
opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas
in democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the
greatest progress is witnessed.  It is likewise true in the world of
religion.  When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right
of speech prevail - that is to say, when every man according to his
own idealization may give expression to his beliefs - development
and growth are inevitable."
(Promulgation, page 197)


*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************




=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed,  7 Feb 96 07:15:21 PST
Subject: RE: Male and female attributes
To: talisman@indiana.edu, QUANTA DAWNLIGHT ,
        "Hannah E. Reinstein" 


On Wed, 7 Feb 96 07:43:07 UT  Hannah E. Reinstein wrote:
"Nonetheless, the Manifestation, as Mirror of the
>Divine, has
>no gender and therefore neither does the Holy Spirit, which is the
delivery
>medium of written revelation. Man and Woman do not mean the same
things to
>Baha'u'llah that they do to us."
>


This speaks to a sharp distinction between Manifestationhood and
Humanity.  Such a distinction seemed to be implied by Jesus Christ
but seems to be blurred in popular representations.

To refer to Manifestationhood as a state of being, co-existent with
the spiritual reality of a human,  well, that seems to be news.

Can this be supported by Scripture? I mean the whole thing, that the
Manifestation is separate from the Guy and that the Manifestation is
without Gender.

Also, big difference here between genderless and androgynous. Which
do you mean?

Philip



-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/07/96
Time: 07:15:21

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein




=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:29:37 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mlp@sover.net (Marie L. Procter)
Subject: re: liberalism and free speech

Dear Mr. Logan,
I think your comment referring to free speech as a "security blanket" is a
bit extreme.  As I follow this thread on liberalism and western values, I
balance the excesses of "free speech" which can lead to, for example,
slanderous attacks on public figures and publication of pornographic
material with the supression of legitimate questionning and outcry against
tyranny, injustice and corruption that would be lost if "free speech" were
abolished.

Yes, the Faith has introduced a new concept of government where the need
for free speech as a means to protest against the wrongs of government
would not be necessary, but it will take some time before this new concept
is fully realized. Are we to deal with the excesses of old world
administrative practices that find their way into the new form through
radiant acquiesence?

Does practicing "radiant acquiesence" mean that we cannot raise questions
about certain practices of our institutions through the legitimate channels
available to us, i.e. Feast consultation and recommendations to our
Assemblies, letters to our esteemed bodies and consultation with
representatives of the Institution of the Learned.

The debate here on Talisman about how to balance obedience and submission
to the guidance of our institutions with our Western heritage of
independent thought, Bill of Rights and Freedoms is an interesting one.  I
enjoy the clash of differing opinions on this subject as well as many
others and find myself rethinking issues in the light of all the
contributions offered.  Thanks to all.

Marie





=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed,  7 Feb 96 07:38:02 PST
Subject: FW: sexuality and mysticism
To: talisman@indiana.edu


On Wed, 7 Feb 96 07:19:10 PST  belove@sover.net wrote:
>
>------------Transcript of Session-------------
>
>
>
>-------------Undelivered Message--------------
>
>Date: Mon,  5 Feb 96 08:54:54 PST
>From: belove@sover.net
>Subject: FW: Re: sexual mental health and spirituality?
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc.
>Message-ID: 
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
>On Thu, 1 Feb 1996 13:41:42 PST8PDT  Eric D. Pierce wrote:
> Getting a workable
>>set of definitions and concepts of sexuality in a Baha'i context
>>would help, otherwise there may end up being inevitable
>>complaints that the cart is in front of the horse here.
>>
>>I would suggest that there are some important issues relating
>>to individual spiritual development and sexual "mental health"
>>(is chastity it?) that might be immediately applicable in order
>>to facilitate an increased release of spiritual potential and
>>resulting sense of individual fulfillment.
>>
>>
>
I'd like to distinquish between sexuality and gender,
>although in the working out of these issues in life, they pervade
one
>another.

Let's look at Gender and sexuality as they exist in subjectivity.  By

>gender I mean cultural roles and expectations and self-evaluations
and
>morals and mores. By sexuality I mean how you experience your self
in love
>making.
>
>
>I bet that for each of us, it is our own particular, personal
experience which leads
us to select this or that theory, doctrine, etc., as being the truest

>statement about sexuality.. So if I say
>intimacy is *really* about dominance, that is how I experience it.

Probably the mark of maturity is
>having a set of beliefs with premises profound enough to allow a
broad
>capacity for nuance.
>
>It is a small leap to further suggest that our way of evaluating
mystical
>erotic imagery is conditioned by our experience and expectations,
for better
>or worse, of earthly rapture.
>
>So this discussion of erotic imagery is actually intensely personal,

>especially the part where the individual participants evaluate the
imagery.


Shame there isn't a forum or context of high spiritual values that
allows a discussion of erotic matters.

>There are perhaps no other undiscussed experiences in the human
realms which
>are so intense, profound, personally challenging and life changing.
>
>I think that spiritual and sexual mental health will require
thoughtful
>conversation in the context of a solid value system.
>
>Of course, I realize that some things are not for general
distribution.
>These are sacred matters. We don't cast our pearls before swine lest
they
>trample them and then turn on us and trample us. But it's not the
same thing
>as not talking period.
>
>But back to the thread.
>
>I am suggesting that the positions we take in our discussion of
gender roles
>and sexuality reveal something very essential about our own
experiences. I
>also suspect that in making these suggestions I am breaking a taboo.

>
>This is an interesting and important thread and a highly risky one
to
>discuss.  Perhaps this is the most we can do.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Philip (one "l")
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------
>Name: Philip Belove
>E-mail: belove@sover.net
>Date: 02/05/96
>Time: 08:54:55
>
>This message was sent by Chameleon
>-------------------------------------
>Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
>

-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/07/96
Time: 07:38:03

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein




=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed,  7 Feb 96 07:23:55 PST
Subject: RE: Digging the Buddha
To: Talisman , Steven Scholl <73613.2712@compuserve.com>,
        748-9178@mcimail.com


On 07 Feb 96 02:42:36 EST  Steven Scholl wrote:
>
>To date, I have not seen Baha'is adequately address Buddhism when
attempting to
>reinvent Buddhism in a Baha'i image. I find this approach a dead
end.


...snip...


>
>My own view is that the Baha'i sacred writings have almost no
substantive
>comments on the Buddha and Buddhist teachings. So why do we feel
compelled to
>turn Buddhism into a Western-style monotheism? I would suggest that
the concept
>of Manifestation of God as described by Baha, firmly rooted in the
Irano-Semitic
>religious heritage, is not a meaningful category for the Buddha.



I want to stand and cheer.

I suspect a similarly structured comment may be made about Krsna.
Actually, I always thought that Krsna  was a numinous mythological
figure, a cultural manifestation of a prime Archetype.


I;ve always winced when I've heard my Bahai friends explain glibly
that Baha'ullah was the reincarnation of all the great prophets and
named the Buddha and Krnsa in that list. I think a statement to that
effect also appears in several of the Bahai propaganda pieces.

I'm happy to read here a request to have those claims reconsidered.

And by the way, I have a question on a related theme.

What are the references in the medium obligatory prayer about. ARe
they to specific prophets?  I'm referring to the
pargaraph...conversed on Mount Sinia, through whom the Supreme
Horizon was made to shine and the Lote tree beyond....
That paragraph seems be a confession to a geneology of Prophets, but
I've never met anyone who could tell me precisely who was being
referred to.

Thanks


Philip







-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/07/96
Time: 07:23:56

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein




=END=


From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed,  7 Feb 96 07:37:17 PST
Subject: FW: Returned mail
To: 748-9178@mcimail.com, talisman@indiana.edu


On Wed, 7 Feb 96 07:20:57 PST  belove@sover.net wrote:
>
>------------Transcript of Session-------------
>
>
>
>-------------Undelivered Message--------------
>
>Date: Mon,  5 Feb 96 08:36:24 PST
>From: belove@sover.net
>Subject: FW: Sinaic Imagery
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc.
>Message-ID: 
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
>On Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:18:35 -0800  SFotos@eworld.com wrote:
>>Dear friends,
>>
>
>>
>>And there is no doubt that the male sex drive, with its derivatives

>of
>>territoriality and dominance, is a prime motivator in human
affairs,
>Some
>>(WARNING--INFLAMMATORY TERM)  sociobiologists have suggested that
>most
>>institutions today are structured to mirror male dominance rituals,

>power
>>acquisition and maintenance, gatekeeping functions etc.
>>
>
>
>This is a highly questionable, incomplete, reductionistic, and
>accusatory characterization of male  gender roles.
>
>I, for one, am not willing to accepts this assertion that
>territoriality and dominance are part of *male sex drive* with its
>implications that these attributes, characterized here only in their
>most negative connotations, are genetically inherent.
>
>I think it is important that we recognize and acknowledge female
>anger and distrust and criticism of male ways, but I think it is
>equally important that we do so explicitly and that we not accept
>these buried, implicit attacks as though they were true.  The result
>would be a kind of sexism that is to be avoided.
>
>
>Philip
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------
>Name: Philip Belove
>E-mail: belove@sover.net
>Date: 02/05/96
>Time: 08:36:25
>
>This message was sent by Chameleon
>-------------------------------------
>Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
>Einstein
>

-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/07/96
Time: 07:37:17

This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein




=END=


Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 17:09:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani" 
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Memories of Ashchi -- part 3

[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]


I regret that last week due to a number of distractions I was
unable to continue sharing an outline of Jinab-i Ashchi's
recollections of the Blessed Perfection.  But now I'm excited to
have time to continue our discussion of the Baha'i Gospel
according to Ashchi ;-}

I want to emphasize that I like to approach this thread not so
much as a series of postings where one (I, in this case) posts
and others passively print them and are done with, but rather as
an opportunity to collectively deepen on many aspects of the life
of Baha'u'llah.

In addition, presently, steps are being taken to have this
narrative readied for eventual publication, but as you will note
once we get in the text it needs a great deal of annotation in
form of extracts and information gleaned from God Passes By (GPB)
and Baha'u'llah: the King of Glory (BKG), as well as other
sources, to provide a balanced perspective.

And that's where Talismanians can help a great deal, using REFER
or other devices to cull such information and post them.  This
will help with both our deepening process and will also advance
the efforts to have the narrative prepared for publication.  I
hope that many on Talisman will have enough interest in this sort
of collective undertaking to participate in a serious manner.  At
the end of each section, I'll outline some search topics.

Therefore, I'll post a section of the narrative and then will
pause and let others contribute on "search topics".


Incidentally, one of Talismanians has brought to my attention
that in 1920's the beloved Guardian took steps to have this
narrative translated and prepared for possible publication.  If
anyone has any details, please share.


So here is an outline (not a translation) of Ashchi's memories:


         In the Name of God, the Most Holy, the Most
                Great, Exalted and Glorified.

  After praise and laudation of the divine and glorified Lord
  [Baha'u'llah], exaltation of the Bab, humility before the
  threshold of Abdu'l-Baha, obedience to the Centre of the
  Covenant, and servitude before the offshoot of the Twin Holy
  Trees, the chosen branch and the Guardian of the Cause of God,
  Shoghi Effendi Rabbani, may my spirit be a sacrifice for his
  favours, on 20th of December 1924, this ephemeral servant,
  Abdu'r-Rasul Ibn Khalil Mansur-i Kashani, was instructed by the
  Guardian to interview Aqa Husayn Ashchi and ask him questions
  about the travels of the Ancient Beauty from Baghdad until the
  end of His Life and other events associated with that period
  and ministry of Abdu'l-Baha.  The Guardian's instructions were
  to gather information on each of these episodes, from the time
  of departure of the Blessed Perfection from Baghdad through
  Akka period and to present him with a written document.

  Therefore, I informed Aqa Husayn Ashchi of this directive and
  in utmost obedience he accepted and confident of divine
  confirmation undertook to narrate this history.  Whatever is
  written is from the lips of Aqa Husayn Ashchi Ibn Muhammad
  Javad-i Kashani [who was on his deathbed and as such unable to
  undertake the actual writings himself].


  When this servant (Aqa Husayn Ashchi) attained the presence of
  the divine Countenance (Baha'u'llah), I was about 13 years of
  age.  Previously I had lived in Kashan where we had suffered
  much by the virtue of being a Babi and since my father traveled
  extensively on behalf of Baha'u'llah, together with my mother
  and sister we moved to Tihran where my maternal uncles lived,
  one of them being Ustad Isma'il, the builder.  We stayed in
  Tihran for a while with the intention of moving to Baghdad.

  From the beginning, however, Aqa Mirza Rida-Quliy-i Nuri, one
  of the brothers of the Blessed Beauty, discouraged us to depart
  saying that any day our father, Aqa Muhammad Javad, will arrive
  from Baghdad and will bring a scarf and a ring for a blessed
  undertaking.  Sure enough, shortly my father arrived bearing a
  scarf and a ring as a gift of the Ancient Beauty for the hand
  of a daughter of the late Aqa Mirza Muhammad-Husayn, upon him
  the glory of God, a brother of the Ancient Beauty.  This
  daughter was known as Sharh-Banu Khanum and was intended for
  the Master, the most Mighty Branch.  Since by that time, Aqa
  Mirza Muhammad-Husayn had passed away, his brother, Aqa
  Rida-Quli, looked after the affairs of his household.

  On the question of matrimony, this brother [being the girl's
  legal guardian] was at first agreeable, but soon changed his
  mind.  He would complain that:   "if I was to send the girl [to
  Baghdad], and the noblemen of the Shah's Court as the ministers
  inquired of me, how am I to respond?"  Therefore he declined
  the offer of matrimony between the Master and Sharh-Banu
  Khanum.

  My father exerted much effort in this regard and had many
  discussions with Aqa Mirza Rida-Quli, but to no avail.  He
  remarked to my father:  "You [being a known Babi] visit me too
  often and this will reflect negatively on me."  To which my
  father responded:  "If two or three like you were found among
  the Holy Family, surely the Cause of God would come to nigh."

  One of his complains was how to answer the Prime Minister
  [on the girl's marriage to Abdu'l-Baha].  However, secretly, he
  was planning to give her hand in marriage to a son of this
  Prime Minister.

  At any rate, after losing all hope, my father left Tihran for
  Baghdad.  However, deeply grieved for what had transpired [and
  his failure to fulfill Baha'u'llah's wishes], along the journey
  he fell ill in Kirmanshah.  We waited for a few days there
  hoping for his recovery, but the illness continued and in such
  state took him to Baghdad.

  Our journeyman was one famous Mir Muhammad-i Shirazi, who
  during the days of Primal Point, was urged to serve the
  faithful.  At the conclusion of our journey, a few steeds and
  some money was given to him.  Spiritually he was firm and
  steadfast, but occasionally he vacillated.  Later from Baghdad
  he accompanied the Blessed Beauty to Istanbul and when He moved
  to Edirnih, Aqa Mir Muhammad remained in Istanbul engaged in
  certain occupation.  And later when the events associate with
  Mishkin-Qalam occurred, six of the believers were imprisoned:
  Mishkin-Qalam;  Sayyah Effendi;  Aqa Abdu'l-Ghaffar-i Isfahani,
  known as Kaj-kulah (skewed hat);  Aqa Muhammad-Baqir Qahvihchi,
  the servant of Baha'u'llah;  Ustad Muhammad-Ali Salmani (the
  barber);  Aqa Jamshid Bukhara'i.  These six were in the Ottoman
  jail until the blessed journey [of Baha'u'llah and the Holy
  Family] from Edirnih to Akka occurred.  At that time, four of
  them were sent to Glibuli [sp?, Cypress] so they won't join the
  Blessed Beauty.   Ustad Muhammad-Ali Salmani and Aqa Jamshid
  Bukhara'i were sent to Iran and it was never determined why
  such a decision.

  Aqa Mir Muhammad, the journeyman, ascertained that indeed the
  four of them had arrived at Glibuli, but couldn't find anything
  on the location of the other two [i.e. Salmani and Bukhara'i].
  As such, greatly agitated and in the state of utmost
  indignation, he went to the Exalted Court (Ottoman seat) and
  roared like a lion, shouting:  "The prisoners were six in
  number and now only four have arrived at Glibuli.  Where are
  the other two?  And if you don't tell me their whereabouts, I
  will burn down Istanbul."  Such he continued shouting for a
  while that the officials, seeing he is old and simple, were
  moved and informed him that indeed they were sent back to Iran
  and urged him to cable Iran and ensure their safety to satisfy
  himself.  Officials also confirmed that four of the believers
  were sent to Cypress.



Ahang speaking:  This an outline of the first 5 pages of this 149
page narrative.

In the above section, a number of research questions can be
identified which requires input from Talismanians by posting info
from GPB, BKG or other sources.

1.  Any biographical data on:

        Abdu'r-Rasul Ibn Khalil Mansur-i Kashani
        Aqa Husayn Ashchi
        Muhammad-Javad-i Khashani (Ashchi's father)
        Ustad Isma'il, the builder, (Ashchi's uncle)
        Aqa Mirza Rida-Quli (brother of Baha'u'llah)
        Aqa Mirza Muhammad-Hasan (brother of Baha'u'llah)
        Sharh-Banu Khanum
        Mir Muhammad-i Shirazi
        the six believers imprisoned in Istanbul


2.  Year when the marriage arrangement between Sharh-Banu and
Abdu'l-Baha was being planned.

3.  Details about imprison of 6 believes in Istanbul and their
eventual fate.


(to be continued, ... if there was serious interest....)

best regards, ahang.




=END=

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:59:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Petulance
From: "Richard C. Logan" 
To: "Burl  Barer" , "K. Paul Johnson" 
Cc: "Talisman" 

> Take note of this from Abdul-Baha:
> "Consider what a vast difference exists between modern democracy and the
>old forms of despotism.  Under an autocratic government the
>opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas
>in democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the
>greatest progress is witnessed.  It is likewise true in the world of
>religion.  When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right
>of speech prevail - that is to say, when every man according to his
>own idealization may give expression to his beliefs - development
>and growth are inevitable."
>(Promulgation, page 197)


Dear Burl,

I never said anything to contrary. (Abdu'l-Baha's statement)   I'm very
happy to let Paul be right and myself be wrong because as I wrote to him
today I don't believe these things are a matter of competition.

Of course, OTH,  I'm sure you are not saying, by showing us this quote,
we have now reached the apex of human achievement and can rest on our
laurels because we are not "autocratic" in America.  As I understand it,
it was always the Masters way to emphasize the good things of a
particular circumstance.  He also recommended that after decisions have
been made by a House of Justice they should not be censured, but through
unified action the true needs of a situation can be uncovered.  I do not
see a contradiction here because I think I understand the context in
which He is making both remarks.  The Master also said:

O ye beloved of God!  O ye children of His Kingdom!

Verily, verily the new heaven and the new earth are come.  The holy city,
the new Jerusalem, hath come down from on high in the form of a maid of
heaven, veiled, beautious, and unique, and prepared for reunion with her
lovers on earth.  The angelic company of the celestial Concourse have
joined in their call that hath rung throughout the universe, all loudly
and mightily acclaiming:  "Hail, O City of God!  Abide Thou, and make Thy
habitation with the pure, virtuous, and holy servants of Thine; for they
are Thy people, and Thou art their Lord."   (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World
Faith, The New Heaven, The New Earth  p.350)

Richard



Richard C. Logan   nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it."  --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++





=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 14:45 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Petulance

Richard Logan writes:
> I'm sure you are not saying, by showing us this quote,
>we have now reached the apex of human achievement and can rest on our
>laurels because we are not "autocratic" in America.

Burl sez:
   'course not.  We got autocrats in America -- according to my Talisman
dictionary:
AUTOCRAT: Self-Winding Politician


BB

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************




=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:14:04 -0800
From: derekmc@IX.NETCOM.COM (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Petulance
To: talisman@indiana.edu

---- Begin Forwarded Message
 My dear Burl
I thought Petulance was an old lovely girl friend of yours
Warmest Derek
Subject: Re: Petulance
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk

Richard Logan writes:
> I'm sure you are not saying, by showing us this quote,
>we have now reached the apex of human achievement and can rest on our
>laurels because we are not "autocratic" in America.

Burl sez:
   'course not.  We got autocrats in America -- according to my
Talisman
dictionary:
AUTOCRAT: Self-Winding Politician


BB

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************






=END=


From: "K. Paul Johnson" 
Subject: Borg and the Baha'is
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 16:38:24 EST


Stimulated by the need to evaluate some of Cayce's dubious and
not-so-dubious assertions about Jesus, I'm starting to read the
latest scholarship.  Am getting my feet wet with Marcus Borg's
Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time.  He makes four positive
assertions about the historical Jesus that tend to align him
with Baha'u'llah, and two negative assertions that definitely
put him at odds with what Baha'is have perceived him to be:

1. The historical Jesus was a *spirit person*, one of those
figures in human history with an experiential awareness of the
reality of God.
2. Jesus was a *teacher of wisdom* who regularly used the
classic forms of wisdom speech (parables, and memorable short
sayings known as aphorisms) to teach a subversive and
alternative wisdom.
3. Jesus was a *social prophet,* similar to the classical
prophets of ancient Israel.  As such, he criticized the elites
(economic, political and religious) of his time, was an
advocate of an alternative social vision, and was often in
conflict with authorities.
4. Jesus was a *movement founder* who brought into being a
Jewish renewal or revitalization movement that challenged and
shattered the social boundaries of his day...

Well, all these four characterizations resonate with aspects of
Baha'u'llah's life, and to the extent that they fit, I'm
perfectly happy with Baha'u'llah.  BUT:

1. Jesus was nonmessianic in his self-understanding, said
nothing about being the Messiah or Son of God in some special
sense.
2. Jesus was noneschatological, not expected the coming of the
Kingdom of God as an earth-shattering event.  The growing
scholarly consensus to this effect is a recent phenomenon.

Since Baha'u'llah was not only messianic and eschatological but
firmly insistent on seeing Jesus in this light, if the scholars
are right they have pulled the rug out from under the Baha'is.



=END=


From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:00:12 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us
Subject: name in lights

Dear Richard,

You wrote:
>I saw you last night at Feast on the Baha'i Newsreel (vol. 6, No. ,
>Jan. 1996 34 min).  You were bewitching in the  "Association for
>Baha'i Studies:  19 years of program" segment.  I hope I will be see
>  more of you now that your name is up in lights.

Thanks for your very kind remarks. That ABS meeting was really great!!

I'm now going to tell my little travel plans to both Talisman and Baha'i
Studies lists so that maybe I can visit some list members during February and
March and enjoy fellowship with the dear friends (it's a good idea for us
long term pioneer types to come back home periodically to "de-weird"
ourselves!!).

I'll be at the Talisman Mysticism conference at Bosch on the 23rd, then on to
Tucson to see my father, then up to Seattle to visit my daughter.  From the
third week in March  I'll be in Chicago for professional conferences, giving
a paper titled "Language Choice as Strategy in an EFL Classroom Discourse
Community" at the American Association of Applied Linguistics annual
conference. Then immediately after this conference is our biggie: TESOL
(Teachers of English to Speakers of other Languages), which usually has over
8,000 attendees. Since I'm on the editorial board of the TESOL Quarterly,
I'll be attending the annual board meeting and will also represent the JALT
Journal (Japan's only refereed international journal, published by our TESOL
affiliate, the Japan Association for Language Teaching), as associate editor
in the  "How to get Published: Demystifying the Process" workshop.  I'm also
giving my own panel on "Multimedia Language Teaching", and will be presenting
the book I just edited by the same title at a publisher's session.

If it is possible to get in touch with any of the friends, either in Seattle
or during the conferences, please let me know. Talisman/Baha'i Studies lists
have meant so much to me in terms of  keeping up to date on current Baha'i
issues, getting to know what people are thinking, and just learning to care
for people's dear cyber-faces online. (How is it possible to come to like
people you've never met--what a mystery!!)

And now, let me borrow a line from Dr. Burl:

Buy  MULTIMEDIA LANGUAGE TEACHING (edited by Sandy Fotos), Logos
International (distributed by Alta Books, San Francisco)

Best,
Sandy Fotos
Tokyo





=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:41:55 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]" 
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: naming of babies
In-Reply-To: 
Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk


There is a passage in the book of Browne's translated by Moojan in which
the Bab is quoted as saying that in the future children should be named
after qualities of God.  The Cause of God has been revealed so that all
things, even the names of the days and months, and of all people, will
reflect the qualities of God.

Brent



=END=


From: "Eric D. Pierce" 
To: bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us, talisman@indiana.edu
Date:          Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:02:06 PST8PDT
Subject:       1st come 1st served rides:bosch mysticism conf, sharp left turns

Hi,

If my wife decides to *not* go, I'll be available to
help with transportation for anyone that gets
stranded in the Bay Area on the way to the conference
(I hope to go as a "day student" and since I'm not
registered at this point, I'll will be experiencing
the luxury of Motel 6 or something [treehouse?]). I'll
probably leave Sacramento the day before the conf
starts unless it starts friday night, in which case
I'll be leaving friday afternoon. I don't think I'll be
at the conf for the whole weekend, so I probably won't
be able to help with departures.

I used to live in the Santa Cruz area, and since I
know most of the mountain roads, I'll be pushing the
old Subaru wagon to the limit in the turns (warning
for the squeamish)! Another even greater danger is that
you may be trapped in my car for up to an hour enroute,
and will have to listen to all my opinions. :)

Eric D. Pierce
Sacramento, California

work phone/message (916) 278-7586
home phone/message (916) 454-4463
car  phone         (916) 261-4421

ps, does anyone have a conf schedule that they can post?



=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 17:10 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Belove&Gambling

 Dear Talisites and Talisettes:

 I draw your attention to Vol.6, Number 3 of JOURNAL OF BAHA'I STUDIES
(September-December 1994) which arrived TODAY.  Mail takes a long time when
it is in three languages.  Anyway, Talisman's
Philip Belove has an insightful commentary on computer dating and computer
gambling that had me clutching my dice with excitement. John Hatcher,
however, responded that Belove rolled snake-eyes.  If you do not subscribe
to the Journal of Baha'i Studies you are missing a pulse pounding adventure
in scholarly non-fiction. In fact, it is the hottest publication except for
maybe EASY RIDERS -- and that's just because JBS doesn't have women in
swimsuits leaning against bookcases as an impulse buy lure.

BB

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************




=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 16:58 PST
To: "K. Paul Johnson" 
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Borg and the Baha'is
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu

>
>
>Since Baha'u'llah was not only messianic and eschatological but
>firmly insistent on seeing Jesus in this light, if the scholars
>are right they have pulled the rug out from under the Baha'is.
>
>Naw.  Its a perspective thing.  The end of the world is never earth
shattering, and the day of Resurrection passes by the same as any other --
the people standing there when the sepulchers of self are torn assunder and
souls are raptured into the atmosphere of recognition are more prone to
notice the new Budweiser billboard.

Burl

*******************************************************
 MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4     $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************




=END=


Date: 7 Feb 96 16:07:08 U
From: "Dan Orey" 
Subject: Dear Dr Burl
To: talisman@indiana.edu

GatorMail-Q                   Dear Dr Burl


Dear Dr. Burl - is there any truth to the rumor that "Euthanasia" is a
shortened term for "youth in Asia"? I have heard that this is really a service
project where Baha'i parents will be able to send their teenage sons and
daughters for a year or more away from home? Isn't this what we have the
Maxwell School for? What gives?

- Probably clueless, but tastefully dressed in Sacramento





=END=


Date: 7 Feb 96 16:02:45 U
From: "Dan Orey" 
Subject: Announcement re Welc & Affi
To: 73074.1221@compuserve.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: slynch@interserv.com

        Reply to:   Announcement re Welc & Affirm
Here ye! Here ye!

Let it be known to all in the Land of Talisman that the unofficial Mayor of the
Gay Ghetto has awarded our dear Sister Mary Kay Radpour the title of honorary
Homosexual. This much coveted award has been given to Mary K. for here
extremely tireless work in defense of here bludgeoned, beaten, depressed, and
confused brethren of the lavender way.

Other recipients of this prestigious awards please hood the candidate!

Mary K. is here seen leaving the auditorium at the head of the procession to
the tune of "somewhere Over the Rainbow" as sung by Judy Garland.....





=END=


Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 18:47:36 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Dear Dr Burl
To: talisman@indiana.edu

---- Begin Forwarded Message


GatorMail-Q                   Dear Dr Burl


Dear Dr. Burl - is there any truth to the rumor that "Euthanasia" is a
shortened term for "youth in Asia"? I have heard that this is really a
service
project where Baha'i parents will be able to send their teenage sons
and
daughters for a year or more away from home? Isn't this what we have
the
Maxwell School for? What gives?

- Probably clueless, but tastefully dressed in Sacramento

Dear Clueless but so tasteful.
The project is run by teenage Baha'is of both genders to get rid of
their parents for several years. Asia , the Moon , New Zealand or
Jupiter distance is all that counts, leave credit cards and check book
behind with car keys. Maxwell school is for inferior coffee, instant
has no give.
Dr Burl's best friend DR.Uncle Derek





=END=


From: "Mark A. Foster" 
Subject: Feminine/Masculine, etc.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 20:46:04 -0600 (CST)

To: talisman@indiana.edu

Talismanians -

    I suppose that I have some difficulty with viewing the Sacred Texts
by our own standards of what it feminine and masculine. The Prophet is
beyond all such conditions and, at the same time, encompasses them all.
If at one time the Prophet appears to speak in what someone might
consider a feminine or a masculine voice, it is only to touch our souls
on a particular level or to activate some particular attribute. From my
POV, everything that the Prophet says or does is endowed with greater
significance than the obvious. Anyway, standards of what is feminine or
masculine are not constant.

    Something which sociologists of gender have observed is a more
pronounced psychological androgyny (beginning primarily among young
people in the U.S.) in the 1950s. And, since the 1970s, with the birth
of feminist SMOs (social movement organizations), such as the moderate
NOW (National Organization for Women) and the radical SCUM (the Society
for Cutting up Men), and of so-called men's liberation, including the
"eco-warrior," the "no-shared-custody-no-support," and the "androgyne"
factions, gender roles have changed markedly - but more so among women
than men.

    Therefore, I think that it is difficult to say what is feminine or
masculine in an absolute sense. A better strategy, IMHO, would be to ask
what was *considered* feminine and what was *considered* masculine
literary style in the nineteenth-century Near East. Gender categories,
IMHO, are historically relative, and the Prophet may use them just as He
would any word picture.

    Regarding Sri Krsna, I don't think that we know what sort of Prophet
He was. The Master reportedly called Him a Prophet (cited in _Paris Talks_
a.k.a., _The Wisdom of `Abdu'l-Baha_), and the Guardian confirmed His
Prophethood. However, IMO, that does not necessarily mean that He was the
historical Founder of Hinduism. He may have been a dependent Prophet (a
"Follower and Promoter").

    About democracy and the quote from _Promulgation of Universal
Peace_: As I see it, the reason why democracy is preferable to despotism
is because under a despotic form of government, it may be difficult to
have a free and open exchange of ideas. IOW, democracy makes Baha'i
consultation possible. From my POV, that is the essential reason why the
Master commented so positively on consultation. However, as I see it,
that does not mean that all aspects of modern democracies can be adopted
uncritically.

To the Light,

Mark (Foster)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty  *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Dir., Reality Sciences Institute * Owner, Baha'i Science of Reality List    *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality  *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production)  *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us  *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 * Co-Moderator, a Baha'i List   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
       "The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
        Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
    "The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
     to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha



___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity




=END=


[end of 2/7/96 session]

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