Talisman Bahai Archives Jan. 1-4, 1996
Jan 1-4, 1996
Talisman emails received 1/1/96
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From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:34:24 EST
Subject: Adam & Eve
Cute little story from News and Observer's Snow section.
"Adam and Eve had perfect marriage. He never had to hear about all
the other men Eve could have married and she never had to hear
how good of a cook his mother was". MMM! can we repeat that?
Just sharing last tidbits in '95.
so long '95 :(
it was a darn good year:)
being on talisman!!!
and alive!!
to be a nifty fifty!
on June seventeen,
ninety-six summertime(*_*)
and the living be easy?????
wearing a silver crown,
walking through golden days,
picking pearls of wisdom,
the rest of the way,
on life's journey,
together with my friends.
love, learn, serve
Quanta Dawn-Light
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:56:44 EST
Subject: re:Truth and Unity
"O my God, aid Thou Thy servant to raise up the Word, and refute
what is vain and false, to establish the truth..."-Abdu'l-Baha
The difficult task to achieve then is how do you maintain unity while
establishing truth. Why was Jesus crucified? Why was Moses exiled?
Why did Muhammad suffer? Why did Baha'u'llah accept imprisonment and
exile? etc. etc. Why did the people not hear and unite?
love, learn and serve
Quanta
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Mail isn't working
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 23:09:24 -0600 (CST)
Talismanians,
My mail provider, which is perpetually having problems (due in large part
to poor management), is down again.
If anyone has sent me any mail in the last 24 hours, I have not received
it. Apparently, I can send mail but not receive it.
If you have sent me anything, please resend it to:
realityman@aol.com
Or, if you need to contact me, you may also use that address for the time
being.
Sorry for taking up band width with this message.
Mark Foster
=END=
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:56:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Happy 1996
Happy New Year to one and all!
Best regards,
Nima
---
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
"In the mirror of their minds, the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
Sun of Universal Knowledge" - Secret of Divine Civilization
=END=
From: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 18:59:18 +1100 (EST)
To: Juan R Cole
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Juan,
Thank you for your reply to my recent post. Your posts raises many
interesting issues - alas I shall probably only be able to address some of
them.
You wrote:
>
>Do let's hear something about your background. I take it you live in
>Australia?
I am indeed from Australia, I am married with two children and belong to
the ACT Baha'i Community (by the way our home page is at
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~curtotti/actbahai.html). It is a Community of
about 130 people in Australia's capital city. In terms of employment I
work for the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade on climate change
issues and am a lawyer by training. I have been a Baha'i since 1987.
(Well no need to burden the ether further with my personal trivia!)
Thank you very much for your information on the democratic implications of
Baha'u'llah's writings. I shall certainly endeavour to read your article
as I am interested in Baha'i "political science", if such a field can be
said to exist. One thought that occurred to me is in relation to your
observation that Shoghi Effendi translates "people" in the Tablet to Queen
Victoria as "representatives of the people" - perhaps this was done to pick
up some of the political resonances which you identify in the term
"consultation".
Your comment that:
>Baha'u'llah in his own context was the
>equivalent of a Thomas Jefferson, defying absolute monarchs by calling
>for their demotion to constitutional rulers, with real power given into
>th hands of the people ...
provides a context for some observations that I wanted to make in relation
to your earlier post. i.e. looking at the whole exercise of critiquing the
Baha'i system on the basis of democratic norms. (I am sure you will be
aware of the House of Justice's comments on this but I will try to refer to
'reason' rather than 'authority' in pursuing this point). Many of your
comments suggest that if only we could make the Baha'i system more
"democratic" as this term is understood in America, then many of the
problems would be resolved.
For instance your comment that:
>>Since policy
>>decisions are on the whole not reported to the community, few Baha'is
>>have any idea of what their NSA has actually done the previous year, and
>>have no basis for deciding whether it has done a good job (this flaw
>>derives from the lack of Baha'i journalism).
Freedom of the press is one of the central themes of democratic systems -
and often regarded as a bulwark of democratic freedom. An appeal to Baha'i
journalism thus may contain unstated assumptions about the 'rightness' and
'value' of a so called free press. Let us turn the table and critique the
democratic myth. In fact the press is far from free - it belongs and is
utilised in the interests of a small, wealthy and powerful minority who
utilise it to dominate and direct political debate, and to acquire
additional wealth. The press in fact can be regarded as one of the
'powerful vested interests' whom I referred to in my last post. At the
most cynical the dynamic can be analysed in this way - politicians wish to
be re-elected - the press wishes to make money - it does so by provoking
controversy rather than reporting truth or focussing on what is socially
important - this type of reporting causes politicians to react to the story
rather than the truth and modify government policy - not to improve society
but to ensure that positive points are scored in the endless battle to
dominate voter thinking. Conversely freedom of the press is a myth in
another important sense - the Government deliberately manipulates the media
by controlling information available to it so as to bolster its chances of
re-election or achieve its other goals. Often press reports are little
more than repackages Government press releases. The press is far from the
omniscient eye of the public exposing Govt misfeasance at every turn.
By this discussion I don't want to dismiss the problems you identify in the
Community, these are real, the question is whether the solution lies in
recourse to elements of a system flawed in important respects. Would the
creation of a journalistic elite in the Faith really empower the Baha'i
Community? or would it result in the same sort of "mass" that you identify
as characterising public thinking in democracies?
The solution suggested by Shoghi Effendi seems to be individual
responsibility of the voter to find out, to be informed, to be concerned,
to consider the issues and members of the Community. Perhaps a greater
effort along these lines would produce a better result.
I want to continue this critique of democracy for the purposes of contrast
and context - because I think most who have studied the writings will agree
that the Baha'i system does not claim perfection - it does however offer
itself as an improvement on other political and religious systems.
I am going to carry out this critique not in terms of 'democratic values'
but in terms of 'Baha'i values' - in order the balance the discussion we
are having (i.e. it is the equivalent of criticising the Baha'i Faith in
terms of democratic values). Here are a few Baha'i values where
democracies (and particularly American democracies) performance is less
than ideal: - end to prejudice and racism, abolition of extremes of wealth
and poverty, equality between men and women, universal peace and world
unity
racism: American democracy in particular is dogged by implicit and
explicit racial segregation and racism (identified by Abdu'l Baha during
his travels to America). The TV set and 'the press' is my source of
information here - but it seems fair to say (although perhaps overly
generalised) that America practices a type of social apartheid - blacks and
whites seem to meet in the work place but live in separate parts of cities
- generally do not socialise - rarely inter marry - in fact live in too
separate and mutually suspicious societies. This segregation is
accompanied by material deprivation of the black community who generally
live in what are described by whites as "ghettoes".
extremes of wealth and poverty: Again American democracy does not perform
well. Despite being the leading (or perhaps now second or third)
industrial nation of the world - many of its citizens live in abject
poverty while other Americans are possessed of fabulous wealth (and
concomittant power that goes with that wealth). The way in which the
society assigns economic value to work is bizarre to say the least leading
actors and sports people will be assigned enormous rewards for their
services, while teachers are accorded average (and perhaps less than
average wages).
universal peace and world unity: Not well here. In fact America seems to
be losing the ability to provide a basic level of security to its own
citizens. Stories of murder, shooting and violence in American cities is
standard fare for domestic and foreign media alike. In part this violence
is associated with the American value of the right to bear arms. Universal
peace - America and democracies in general have failed to provide universal
peace to the world - the tragedy in Bosnia is an object case study in the
limitations of democracy, conceived in terms of separate nation states, in
dealing with global problems of security and peace. Thank goodness
something constructive is now being done - let's hope it works.
Sometimes Baha'is fall into the trap of 'evil world out there', 'pure
Baha'i community in here'. Of course this is a distortion of the truth -
and there is much to be valued in democracy and America's democracy. It is
not however a perfect system and therefore should be utilised very
cautiously when proposing 'improvements' to the Baha'i system.
>
>But in a large community like Los Angeles, how do you even
>know who all the better candidates are. In fact, what happens is that
>once someone is elected they tend to be elected over and over again. In
>Los Angeles, it is no secret that there have been problems with the
>functioning of the LSA, and the NSA at one point even directly
>intervened. And yet when elections resumed the same individuals were
>elected again (not that any one of them was necessarily at fault for the
>problems). The same thing is true of the US NSA, wherein an incumbent
>has never been turned out of office, even though on May 19 1994 the
>Universal House of Justice issued that body the sternest reprimand in the
>history of the Faith.
Yes true, but is the re-election of individuals a problem or a benefit?
This provides an opportunity for the development of experience,
understanding and hopefully ultimately wisdom. Are people or practices the
problem? Cannot practices be changed without necessarily changing the
people?
>
>In other words, as it grows, the Baha'i system faces problems of voters
>having sufficient information to vote intelligently. In large
>communities or at the national level, the only names that are known tend
>to be the incumbents, so they tend to be reelected.
In Australia's case there have been instances of incumbents being voted out
- but there is also evolutionary change through the regular replacement of
personnel through new Baha'is replacing retiring members. (This happens
about every year or two in Australia) - In a democratic context we expect
sudden and transformative changes through the election of new governments -
the opposition - who by definition are supposed to be different. The
Baha'i system perhaps doesn't operate that way - and perhaps develops to a
different timescale i.e. the thousand years.
>
>Well, of course, some LSA's do not in fact bother to consult the local
>community much. But these procedures, even when they work, work best in
>small local communities. It is not clear they function well in Los
>Angeles or at a National level.
True - but are these fundamental flaws with the system or problems of
implementation which have not been properly tackled? For instance in our
community we are on the verge of transforming from 'congregation' to
'society' - our communication as an Assembly is not as good as it could be
- the principal difficulty is not dictatorial and secretive attitudes
however - but sheer lack of time to prepare reports for distribution to the
community. There has however been an evolution of our understanding of
'confidential' (a requirement which sometimes encourages secretiveness) to
a point where it is now understood that confidentiality applies only to
matters which have a confidential content.
>
>> - criticism is a right and a duty (albeit one that must be exercised
>> responsibly.
>
>But, in the current system this right is to be exercised only in a
>private letter or at Feast, district convention, or the national
>convention. None of these venues is likely to give much weight to the
>suggestion of a single individual.
>
Is not the Feast a venue where a recommendation can be put, seconded and
voted upon by the Community (i.e. the entire electorate) in order to signal
the view of the "Feast", as opposed to the view of individual members of
the Community? How would you improve this system? Is this not a public
and democratic forum for debate of community issues?
>
>However, the Baha'i system also has flaws. The autonomy of the
>decision-makers should be a *republican* autonomy of conscience, wherein
>the elected representative votes her conscience after consulting with
>constituents and gathering relevant information.
I agree with both your points. Your second point seems to me to be
consistent with what the Baha'i system requires - the extent to which it is
practiced is another issue. To the extent that these principles are
misunderstood we should speak out and seek to identify constructive means
for the remedy of deficiencies.
>as
>mandating something like Leninist democratic centralism, wherein the
>elected form a sort of elective dictatorship.
Your reference to 'Leninism' prompts me to refer to a difficulty I had with
your earlier post - which was the sweeping references to 'fascism' and
'communism' - as spectres of where the Faith might end up or elements of
its current features. These references seem to me to be misleading
generalisations which really don't illuminate a discussion about the
shortcomings of the functioning of the Baha'i system. Fascism rightly
evokes images of an oppressive and racist regime which tortured, supressed
and disposed of dissidents in the most brutal manner, which was responsible
for a world war, and which genocidally eliminated six million Jews.
Similarly communism is associated with a failed regime which in its time
was much similar, which was responsible for the deaths of thirty million
and which brutally supressed dissent in the interests of the personal power
of a few. Both these systems are based ultimately on brutal violence as
systems of social control. Baha'i Communities have none of these features
- power flows not from the barrel of a gun in the Baha'i Community - it
flows from love in human hearts for their fellow human beings. Comparisons
of such regimes with the Baha'i community are therefore unfair and are
likely to mislead - whatever individual instances there may be of
intellectual intolerance in the Community. Numerous less emotive and more
accurate terms such as 'authoritarian' 'unconsultative' etc etc could be
used and would seem to me to facilitate the debate.
>
>My problem is that I think the dangers of
>authoritarianism and the quashing of individual rights in the interest of
>the Institutions is much more likely to arise in large communities that
>have lost that face-to-face Gemeinschaft ("community") and moved to an
>anonymous Gesellschaft ("society"). It is not the case that individual
>ego is the only problem. There can be such a thing as corporate ego.
>There can be an assemblage of nine individuals who together have a
>perceived interest that causes them to act in a dictatorial way. There
>are *no* checks in the Baha'i system on such abuses. The House has
>increasingly shown itself unwilling to intervene in "national" affairs.
The transition from community to society is clearly an important and
difficult one that needs to be made correctly - in line with my thoughts on
an in-built feedback mechanism - I think we will eventually find the
pattern - as it will be that pattern which is true to Baha'i ideals that
will succeed and spread. This pattern will not however fall out of the sky
- it will require reflection to identify and implement. To the extent that
a community fails to make appropriate transformations in its functioning it
will remain stuck in the doldrums - it will not become the pattern for an
Orwellian future oppressive society - as few people are interested in
participating in such a society - that is the beauty of the Baha'i system -
it must be good to succeed. When it is true to it ideals it will.
>> we are after all a global faith.
>
>Obviously, community functioning in illiterate village India is far
>different from that in the U.S. But let us speak of the potentialities
>of Western societies with high rates of literacy and relative abundance
>of resources.
I think to confine our debate to one society is a flawed and culturally
loaded approach - what is it that makes the experience of illiterate Indian
villagers any less valid than that of educated westerners? After all those
villages have been in existence for thousands of years and may perhaps
continue to exist long after the mega-metropoles of the West have
disappeared. (A reflection on this point is that the disfunction of Baha'i
Communities in large cities - is that that disfunction may be due not to
the Community but the nature of the city itself - perhaps not the ideal
form of human organisation.)
Similarly to assess the Baha'i Faith in terms of Western parliamentary
democracy is culturally loaded. There is no justification - in terms of
Baha'i values for exalting one set of cultural traditions over another.
Why should this debate, for instance, not be about, how the Baha'i Faith
fails to meet the expectations of Islamic political ideology?
>I want to see the
>Baha'i Faith reformed, so as to be true to its own essence.
I am sure most of us what to see a better faith - more in tune with the
teachings of Baha'u'llah - need we be so critical of current conditions to
achieve this end? What seems to be needed is practical proposals that can
be put to Assembly's for their consideration and implementation.
Well I have rambled on for too long already.
Thanks again
Michael
(curtotti@ozemail.com.au)
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 00:27:17 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
who talisman
Henry W. Miller
hwmiller@ccnet.com
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 04:05:07 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: on distinction, and the future
There have been a number of excellent posts in the last few days -- more than
I can possible hope to intelligently respond to and still get any sleep
tonight. :) So I'm jumping back onto a thread that has grown "old" in
cyberspace reckoning (that is, it's been more than a day since anyone posted
specifically on this subject).
The question under discussion is: are the Baha'is in America are too similar
to Americans in general (as Jim Harrison has stated) or are they too
different from Americans in general (as K. Paul Johnson and Linda Walbridge
have suggested)? My answer to this question is: Yes.
Of course, my answer makes no sense if one views the question as a simple
one-dimensional spectrum of similarity vs. distinction, but my point is that
the question cannot be usefully answered on a simple spectrum. (Indeed, few
can, but the constant oversimplification of issues like freedom and
distinction is a Talismanian problem I lack the power to solve in a
parenthetical remark.)
The crucial question is not of *whether or not* the Baha'is are different, or
even as K. Paul Johnson suggested, of balancing strong identity against
cultural assimilation. In my view, what we really need to be asking is *in
what ways* are the Baha'is now different, if at all, and most importantly,
how does this compare to the ways in which the Baha'is *should be* different
from the generality of Americans in order to fulfill the spiritual destiny
outlined by the Master and the Guardian?
Seen in this context, the statements of Linda, Jim, and Paul (or should it be
"K. Paul"? or should I stick to formality and just use "K. Paul Johnson" for
every reference? Well, I care enough to wonder, but not enough to start over
again on this paragraph to avoid the question :) all contain accurate
observations about the Baha'is in America. In important ways that mainstream
Americans (both "right" and "left" politically) find jarringly irrational
(sometimes with good reason) the Baha'is are different. Yet the crucial
distinctions that 'Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi urged us to cultivate we
have all too often simply forgotten, and those we remember receive little
more than lip service.
In this context I derive great encouragement from Terry's posts, although
gaining the full benefit of them sometimes requires more time and energy than
I have available :)
Terry has been doing independently what Jim has called upon all of us to do
together: reflecting on the true nature of the Baha'i community's potential
and destined role in possible reversing America's current condition of
rapidly fading inherited strengths on the verge of being overwhelmed by
growing spiritual diseases.
Speaking in different terms, Terry and Jim have both advocated the refinement
of Baha'i character, both on individual and collective levels, as the most
urgent priority for the requirements of the present hour. As Terry
recognized, this kind of distinction is that achieved by Mahatma Gandhi and
Martin Luther King -- a distinction that may offend a few, but for the most
part simply shocks people out of their complacency by starkly pointing out
both the weaknesses threatening us and the strengths by which we can overcome
the crisis we face. It is not a distinctiveness of exclusion and sermonizing
(as in the letter Linda heard on NPR) but one of inspiration and calling upon
all to "rise unto that for which thou wast created."
I humbly submit that until we achieve this kind of distinction for the
Baha'is in America, and rise to the destiny outlined by Shoghi Effendi, no
amount of structural reform will help us overcome the stagnation into which
we have fallen.
Regards,
Kevin
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 04:05:01 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fascists under the bed?
Speaking of extremes of rhetoric and belief, I found it curious that someone
recently said, regarding a conception of Baha'i administration disallowing
public criticism of Assembly decisions, that it leaves "fascism" as "the only
possibility" for a Baha'i government.
I find this curious because under fascism in the Hitlerian sense, as well as
under the various other forms of totalitarianism, outspoken dissidents are
killed or sent away to die of malnutrition or exposure in remote labor camps.
This sort of thing has indeed happened to Baha'is, but never at the behest
of any Baha'i institution. Is it really fair to compare the difficulties
Assemblies have had dealing with various problems, and even the potential
abuses some might commit in the future with more power at their disposal, to
the heartless brutality of fascism? Not as far as I can tell.
Noorbakhsh Monzavi cast new light on this kind of rhetorical hyperbole when
he responded to the question of "constructive criticism":
The point which is made in "truth and unity" is of great importance and
value, however
>Why should we fear constructive criticism of policies and programs?
because, "constructive criticism is destructive".
"Constructive Criticism is Destructive" is the name of an article by
Dr. Hossein Danesh.
He argues that you can not build upon "negative" (which happens in the
world
around us every day: discouraging) in order to improve something.
One should rather build upon "positive" (Bah 'i' attitude: encouraging).
In this light I realized one could argue that "constructive criticism" is the
intellectual equivalent of fascism. Hitlerian fascism argues that society as
a whole should be strengthened by eliminating its weak members. To Hitler
this primarily meant the Jews, but it also meant everyone else seen as weak.
Those whose birth defects, injuries, disease, or advanced age prevent them
from doing productive work would also be eliminated, no matter how spotless
their "Aryan" lineage.
"Constructive criticism" takes the same logic and applies it to ideas,
policies, and programs: all must be held open to constant attack to that all
weakness can be eliminated. Only the strong should survive.
Does this mean that "constructive criticism" is an evil on the same scale as
Hitlerian fascism? Of course not. In certain contexts, constructive
criticism or its equivalent definitely has a place, as in 'Abdu'l-Baha's
quote about "the shining spark of truth" requiring "the clash of differing
opinions" -- even if Dr. Danesh is correct in calling it destructive in the
context of decisions, policies, and programs. My point here is that the
comparison to fascism can be argued with reasonable-sounding logic even if it
is hyperbolic.
As George Orwell so insightfully pointed out in the late forties, the word
"fascism" itself no longer has any useful meaning, and probably is best not
used at all in most discussions. I would add to this that it certainly
cannot be considered an accurate term for applying to any Baha'i institution
that has yet existed, or is likely to exist.
Regards,
Kevin
=END=
Date: 01 Jan 96 06:01:01 EST
From: Mark Foster <72642.3105@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: Subscribe
subscribe talisman
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 03:10:47 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: the learned & Talisman
Dear Talismans,
It was interesting to read Sheila Banani's comment about Hand of the Cause
Banani being illiterate and uneducated in the light of previous posts
regarding two types of "learned in Baha"--those with expert knowledge and
wisdom.
Rejoining Talisman only a day or so ago, I've missed most of the threads on
this theme, but would like to raise the following consideration. In
educational pedagogy, the idea of "learning" implies a conscious effort to
internalize some body of knowledge. A person may have wisdom, intuition,
interpersonal skills, etc., (or may be unschooled in the traditional sense)
but these are separate from acquiring specific knowledge through focused
effort. Here, knowledge would include both declarative knowledge (knowledge
about something) as well as procedural knowledge (knowledge of how to do
something).
Consequently, a distinction based on expert knowledge versus wisdom seems to
suggest that the latter group would not have to exert any effort. So what
have they learned?
Regarding the learning process itself, educators are now moving away from
linear, teacher-fronted classrooms where a "product" is delivered to passive
recipients. Instead, cooperative learning participation patterns, where
learners collaborate in the construction of knowledge (in the Vygotskian
sense of creating meaning through interaction--a process consummately visible
on Talisman), are becoming common.
A forum such as Talisman gives us all a chance to participate in creating the
learned interactively.
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 18:24:27 PST
Subject: RE: truth and unity
To: Noorbakhsh Monzavi , talisman@indiana.edu
On Sun, 31 Dec 95 22:30:10 MEZ-1 Noorbakhsh Monzavi wrote:
>
>"Constructive Criticism is Destructive" is the name of an article by
>Dr. Hossein Danesh.
>
>He argues that you can not build upon "negative" (which happens in
the world
>around us every day: discouraging) in order to improve something.
>One should rather build upon "positive" (Bah 'i' attitude:
encouraging).
>
>with regards,
>Noorbakhsh.
>
>
Interesting point.
Reference? Specifics?
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 12/31/95
Time: 18:24:28
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: 01 Jan 96 10:17:18 EST
From: Mark Foster <72642.3105@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: Can't think of a subject ;-)
Talismanians -
Sorry to again take up band width. However, for the time being, I will be
receiving my mail on CompuServe at this address. My subscription was just
confirmed. As soon as Tyrell is again operational, I will likely cancel my
subscription on that server.
Again, if anyone has written me in the past 30 hours, please resend to this
address:
72642.3105@compuserve.com
Mark
****************************************************************************
*
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist)
Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299
Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society
Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society
Academic Director (& Kansas Director.), Foundation for the Science of
Reality
Board of Directors, (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films)
Science of Reality BBS 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps)
72642.3105@compuserve.com (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Forums)
Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Staff)
UWMG94A (Prodigy) mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality
http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive.)
****************************************************************************
*
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
To: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 96 10:45:33 EST
Cc: jrcole@umich.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Michael writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Is not the Feast a venue where a recommendation can be put, seconded and
voted upon by the Community (i.e. the entire electorate) in order to signal
the view of the "Feast", as opposed to the view of individual members of
the Community? How would you improve this system? Is this not a public
and democratic forum for debate of community issues?
______________
RESPONSE
Once, in Calgary, I recommended we follow this procedure at Feast.
I even quoted from a volume of The Baha'i World, pressing a distinction
between individual suggestions and community recommendations. My source,
*The Baha'i World*, was dismissed as irrelevant since it was *American*
and obviously drawn from *Robert"s Rules of Order*!
My understanding of current Canadian NSA policy is that consensed
or vote-based recommendations may be practiced, but that there is no
requirement to follow this procedure. I have also seen the democratic
process completely break down at unit (district) conventions, where
consultation on issues is a fruitless if not meaningless enterprise, as
delegates are typically not interested in taking any such recommendation to
a National Convention, much less taking one under advisement.
I am not a political scientist, but I fail to see where grassroots
input from the Baha'i community at large has ever been taken seriously,
much less procedurally encouraged at a systemic level. In the community I
last resided in prior to moving to Ottawa, the only vote I was asked to
take was where to hold the next New Year's party. My question for the
politically-scientific is this: To what extent are Baha'i Feasts
*democratic*, and how can they be made more so? If only individual
suggestions have been duly noted, and formal recommendations practically
discouraged in many Baha'i communities, even as a matter of possible NSA
policy, how can we say that the *community* has spoken?
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Solar / Lunar Bases of Baha'i Observances
To: talisman@indiana.edu (Talisman)
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 11:21:34 MST
Dear Friends,
As I didn't receive any responses the last time, I hope you do not mind
this slightly revised repost.
What follows is a partially completed schedule of Baha'i Observances
according to their solar or lunar basis for observing them within the
Baha'i (Badi) calendar.
I seek your assistance in completing this schedule. Please post back
the unknown bases marked with an "?", as well as correcting any errors
or omissions.
The references under Textual Authority are to the Kitab-i-Aqdas, and
Questions and Answers.
Also, although it remains for the House of Justice to legislate on whether
the Twin Holy Birthdays are to be celebrated on a lunar or solar basis,
and currently the solar basis is used in the West, is there any restriction
on we in the West celebrating the Twin Holy Birthdays on a lunar basis?
IOW, has the Guardian or the House issued any directives that require us
to celebrate them on a solar basis? BTW, the Twin Birthdays next occur
May 19-20th according to my calculations.
_______________
Schedule of Current Baha'i Practices and Textual Authorities
for Determining Solar or Lunar Basis for Baha'i Observances
Basis for Observation(1)
--------------------- Textual
Baha'i Observances West East BWC Authority(2)
________________________________________________________________________
Naw-Ruz Solar Solar Solar Solar: Q35
Ridvan Festival(3) Solar(4) Solar Solar Solar: Q1
Declaration of the Bab Solar(4) ? ? Lunar: Q36
Ascension of Baha'u'llah Solar(4) ? ? ?
Martyrdom of the Bab Solar(4) ? ? ?
Birth of the Bab Solar Lunar Lunar Lunar: K110, Q36
Birth of Baha'u'llah Solar Lunar Lunar Lunar: K110, Q36
Day of the Covenant Solar ? ? ?
Ascension of Abdu'l-Baha Solar(4) ? ? ?
Ayyam-i-Ha Solar Solar Solar Solar: K16
The Baha'i Fast Solar Solar Solar Solar: K16
____________________
(1) "Given that the Baha'i calendar ... is a solar calendar, it remains
for the Universal House of Justice to determine whether the Twin Holy
Birthdays are to be celebrated on a solar or lunar basis"(note 138 of
the Kitab-i-Aqdas). Current practices given are for the Eastern,
Western and Baha'i World Centre communities.
(2) References given are for determining the days for observances only.
For example, Naw-Ruz is commanded in K16, but Q35 fixes the day
astronomically.
(3) First, Ninth and Twelfth are Holy Days.
(4) Shoghi Effendi, quoted in "Dawn of a New Day", p.68, outlines the
proper time to celebrate these Holy Days. However, the solar or lunar
determination of the dates are subject to legislation by the Universal
House of Justice.
Loving regards,
stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Fascism and inflammatory language
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 09:56:31 -0800
I agree that the word fascism was inflammatory and, imho, ill-chosen.
However, many people today use that term simply to refer to an extremely
centralized organization or government. It also refers to control and a lack
of choice at lower levels. Brutality isn't necessarily implied by that
usage. However, in political circles, the lunatic-fringe right in the US
calls the current administration fascist. That is bizarre but they do it
nonetheless. Other groups of people use the term statist for the classical
fascist regimes. As you say, the term has no useful meaning any more and can
only confuse and polarize the Baha'i community. It's best to strive for a
more moderate and respectful tone even if the purpose is hyperbole or
sarcasm. As we've seen, unfortunate usage in past criticism such as
"spin-doctor" will only hurt feelings and will not lead to constructive
dialog.
Warmest,
Hannah
{}------------------------------------------------------------------{}
"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood!"
(--The Animals, 196?)
----------
From: Geocitizen@aol.com[SMTP:Geocitizen@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, 01 January, 1996 1:05 AM
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fascists under the bed?
Speaking of extremes of rhetoric and belief, I found it curious that someone
recently said, regarding a conception of Baha'i administration disallowing
public criticism of Assembly decisions, that it leaves "fascism" as "the
only
possibility" for a Baha'i government.
I find this curious because under fascism in the Hitlerian sense, as well as
under the various other forms of totalitarianism, outspoken dissidents are
killed or sent away to die of malnutrition or exposure in remote labor
camps.
<<>
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:42:48 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Problems, Desires for Structural Reforms and a Vision
Well it is certainly heartening to see such though-provoking posts, esp.
over the holidays. With the amount of distress showing though I wouldn't be
surprised if many of you were staring into the bottom of a virgin Margarita
at 3:00am this morning and wondering if you _should_ care whether
Northwestern wins the Rose Bowl . . .
At least one point is clear here. Part of the problem with America, as it
is being discussed here is the issue of structural reforms. On one side we
have folks saying we have to have it now - long overdue, etc. On the other we
have folks saying that such *reform* is useless - that the real problem is
essentially internal - and that these much needed reforms will come about
_after_ we revitalize the American Baha'i communty:
## these are the weapons which the American believers can and must wield in
their double crusade, first to regenerate the inward life of their own
community, and next to assail the long-standing evils that have entrenched
themselves in the life of their nation.##
(Advent of Divine Justice, page 41)
Sometimes this whole process reminds me of trying to clean a closet with
you inside and the door closed . . .
I am going to wager a guess here (often referred to in these parts as a
SWAG - Scientific Wild-Ass Guess) and suggest that the Baha'i community in
America (yes Chris including yon to the Nor') is roughly devided into two
groups. The first are those that are either a) blissfully ignorant of any
significant problems within the larger community or b) have made themselves
blissfully ignorant because that is the only way they could deal with the
problems they repeatedly witnessed.
Group two is composed of: a) those that are well aware of such problems
and have either drifted away, become inactive or completely quit the Faith
because of it, b) those that know exactly what is wrong with the community
and God help ya if you happen to get in their way -
shut-up-sit-down-I'll-tell-you-what-your-opinion-is-there-didn't-we-save-a
lot-of-time-on-needless-consulting" types, c) those that wish to have a
bloodless, or only-a-little-blood-from-that-guy-over-there coup, and d) those
that really DO know what the community needs but no one listens to them
because they refuse to come to the All-you-can-Eat Kelp Buffet that the
community put on and insist on drinking real tea and for God's sake REAL
coffee at Feast . . .
Such which group does Talisman fall into? Well I know which one describes
me (but modesty proscribes me from pointing out which catagory.)
Seriously though. We need to recognize that much of the community really
is *ignorant* in the broadest sense of the word. I am sure most of us have
travelled enough and been around long enough to recognize most of the *types*
of mentality that compose the bulk of the communities one finds across this
continent. What is going to wake these folks up? Will we spend another decade
trying to foster essentially a revolt? That is how it would be perceived by
many. And after the glorious revolution what would be left? How long to heal
the wounds and the fractures? And to what end?
This Faith in _this_ country resembles nothing so much as a sad lil' store
in some third-rate strip-mall in Bakersfield, CA. We've all seen them right?
Ever drive by, over a period of weeks, and notice workmen tearing out and
remodeling some little store there? One day you drive by and you see new
stuff in the window, a big new sign out front and a new coat of paint. Hell
they even painted the parking lot! And you laugh to yourself and think "Do
they really think this will wanna make me take time out and come in?!!" And
you keep right on driving by . . .
No one doubts, or few do, that the Administrative Order, as a strucuture,
is immature - desperately so. But the Administrative Order is not a machine.
It is run by people. And even if we tossed them all out today and started
over with a fresh lot we would very shortly I wager find ourselves in the
same predicament. Some of you are historians here. Review your history.
Review U.S. history. If you look at the terrible depression that overcame
Madison as he saw that no sooner had he and the other Founding Fathers got
the foundation and the framwork of this government up and running than things
started to turn ugly. The very forces, Madison complained, that they had
hoped to block from gaining a foothold in the government were already finding
cracks and seams and holes in which they could slip through. Powerful New
England Bankers, "concerned interests" men of ambition, large plantation
owners, and of course lawyers . . .
They (the Founders) had built a beautiful structure, one praised by the
Guaridan. But they had not changed the hearts of men - they had the strangest
sense of pragmatic/naive/idealism . . .
You know, we have been repeatedly told that a community where there is
disunity will, if it is allowed to continue, eventually dissolve. If this can
happen to a local community (and I can think of a few where this has
happened) why should we think it can't happen to an entire country.
Our mission, as Baha'is, is to heal the spiritual diseases that inflict
mankind. The Guardian told us here, in America, that until - both as
individuals and as communities and as a Community we dealt with the spiritual
diseases we naturally inherited from our culture we would _never_ be
successful in the one remaining and most crucial field of our endeavor - the
conquering of the homefront.
This constant harping on structural reform . . . it is so throughly
American! "If we just passs a few more laws, if we could just have a third
party canidate, if we had another legislative committee to oversee, if we
could just change the Constitution . . ."
Our problems will persist as long as we continue to think of ourselves as
American Baha'is . . . as opposed to Baha'is in America.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 96 13:51:35 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Soroush
To: talisman@indiana.edu
The Islamic philosopher Abdolkarim Soroush has had to flee
Iran and is now living in North America. As many of you know, he
attended the Mesa conference in Washington recently, and a letter
writing campaign on his behalf is underway. Gulf/2000 member
Robin Wright of the Los Angeles Times has written an exclusive
report on Soroush's status. It appears in thread #10, "Iran
Stability?"
Gary Sick sent the above information to me. Thought some of you on Talisman
would be interested. Linda
=END=
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 96 14:05:47 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: truth and unity
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I would think that the greatest lesson we can learn from this miserable century
that is rapidly coming to an end is that we cannot sacrifice truth for
someone's definition of unity. While it is all well and good to post endless
quotes on "unity" there are other admonitions to us to use our reason and
judgment and not to be blindly led by others.
To work together, to strive to improve the world through unified action, is
commendable. To sacrifice all else for the sake of "unity" is absolute folly.
A little historical perspective and "reason" please.
Well, it is lovely that Hossein Danesh has written an article on constructive
criticism, calling it destructive. He, of course, being a long term member of
the Canadian NSA might well be predisposed to see it in this light. He also
would have no trouble getting his ideas published. I am hardly going to be
bowled over by his words. He might have some intelligent things to say, but so
do people on this forum. I'd rather have the ideas of the people on Talisman,
rather have the "big guns" pulled out as a means of silencing others. Affably,
as usual, Linda
=END=
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 96 12:39:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, atirandaz@medinfo.dom.uab.edu
Subject: Message of the Universal House of Justice
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear friends,
Attached is a copy of the Message of the Universal House of
Justice which is being forwarded for your information. regards,
ahang.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[CONFIRMATORY COPY TO FOLLOW]
31 December 1995
To the Baha'is of the World
Dearly loved Friends,
In the wake of the dynamic spirit animating the six-day-long
Counsellors' Conference at the World Centre, now in its final session as
we address you, we take the occasion to announce our decision which has
been the subject of their deliberations: At Ridvan 1996 a global plan of
expansion and consolidation will be launched, to end four years later at
Ridvan 2000.
It is this anticipation that has focused the thoughts of the
seventy-eight Counsellors from the five continents, who have been
conferring together in the presence of the Hands of the Cause of God
Amatu'l-Baha Ruhiyyih Khanum, `Ali-Akbar Furutan and `Ali-Muhammad Varqa,
the members of the Universal House of Justice and the Counsellor members
of the International Teaching Centre. Their consultations on the
challenges and prospects facing the Baha'i world community have been of
such calibre and content as to have emboldened our expectations of a
mighty thrust in the growth and development of that community during the
crucial years immediately ahead.
The whole Plan will be announced at Ridvan. However, we wish you to
have some information about it now within the measure of the discussions
which have been taking place at the Counsellors' Conference.
The Four Year Plan will aim at one major accomplishment: a
significant advance in the process of entry by troops. This is to be
achieved through marked progress in the activity and development of the
individual believer, of the institutions, and of the local community.
Keen attention to all three will ensure a greatly expanded, visibly
united, vibrant and cohesive international community by the end of the
twentieth century. The basic requisites can be summarized as follows.
The first calls for a vitality of the faith of each believer that is
expressed through personal initiative and constancy in teaching the Cause
to others, and through conscientious, individual effort to provide energy
and resources to upbuild the community, to uphold the authority of its
institutions, and to support local and regional plans and teaching
projects. The second requires that local and national Baha'i
institutions evolve more rapidly into a proper exercise of their
responsibilities as channels of guidance, planners of the teaching work,
developers of human resources, builders of communities, and loving
shepherds of the multitudes. The third, the flourishing of the community
especially at the local level, demands a significant enhancement in
patterns of behaviour by which the collective expression of the virtues
of the individual members and the functioning of the Spiritual Assembly
is manifest in the unity and fellowship of the community and the dynamism
of its activity and growth.
Towards these ends, the work of the Continental Counsellors must
assume new dimensions. Thus, at their conference, they have been
deliberating on such matters as:
- Developments in the mode of the functioning of the Continental
Boards of Counsellors.
- The process for the elaboration of the Plan through the formulation
of derivative plans and strategies at the national, regional, and
local levels. Joint consultations between the Continental
Counsellors and National Spiritual Assemblies will begin immediately
after Ridvan, and the planning process will move quickly to the
regional level, involving Auxiliary Board members, Local Spiritual
Assemblies and committees.
- The development of human resources to meet the needs of a rapidly
expanding community. Large-scale growth necessitates sustained
measures of consolidation. The urgent requirement is for formally
conducted programmes of training through institutes and other
centres of learning, in the establishment and operation of which the
Counsellors and Auxiliary Board members will become more intimately
involved.
- Effective approaches to the raising up and consolidation of Local
Spiritual Assemblies. In accordance with the objective of fostering
the maturation of these Assemblies, a greater effort is required
to uphold a vital principle, which is that the responsibility for
electing a Local Spiritual Assembly rests primarily on the Baha'is
in the locality. The Auxiliary Board members and their assistants
are to increase their efforts to improve the general understanding
of this principle and will devote more attention to assisting the
development of Local Assemblies. As of Ridvan 1997, all Local
Spiritual Assemblies throughout the world will have to be elected
on the First Day of Ridvan.
- Further means for the development of local Baha'i communities. The
needs in this respect will be met in part by an immediate increase
in the membership of the Auxiliary Boards for Protection to equal
that of the Auxiliary Boards for Propagation, so that Protection Board
members can directly and systematically assist on a wide scale the
fundamental activities of the community, such as the spiritual
nurturing of individual believers, the participation of women in all
aspects of community life, the observance of the Nineteen Day Feasts
and Holy Days, the holding of children's classes, the fostering of
youth activities.
The seven objectives specified in previous Plans describe essential,
interacting directions that must advance simultaneously into the
foreseeable future. The Four Year Plan's aim at accelerating the process
of entry by troops identifies a necessity at this stage in the progress of
the Cause and in the state of human society. With this perspective, the
three inseparable participants in the evolution of the new World Order --
the individual, the institutions, and the community -- must now demonstrate
more tangibly than ever before their capacity and willingness to embrace
masses of new adherents, to effect the spiritual and administrative
transformation of thousands upon thousands, and, above all, to multiply the
army of knowledgeable, consecrated teachers of a Faith whose emergence from
obscurity must be registered on the consciousness of countless multitudes
throughout the earth. These are among the detailed considerations that
have occupied the deliberations of the Continental Counsellors, who, upon
their return home and in the course of their work, will have occasion to
share the results of their conference with the friends.
An auspicious beginning for the new Plan will largely depend on the
results of the current one, which will end in just a few months. The
adequacy of these results will owe much to the degree to which the Local
Spiritual Assemblies and the friends carry out the directions of their
National Spiritual Assemblies, the generals of every Plan. Time is
slipping away. This reality should prod us all to maximum action. Hence,
in preparation for what beckons us on the near horizon, we cannot, we must
not, hesitate to expend every energy to bring the Three Year Plan to a
successful conclusion. The urgency which intensifies our desire for such
an outcome is not merely pride of victory, gratifying as that may be.
There are divine deadlines to be met. Our work is intended not only to
increase the size and consolidate the foundations of our community, but
more particularly to exert a positive influence on the affairs of the
entire human race. At so crucial a moment in world affairs, we must not
fail in our duty to take timely action on the goals set before us in the
Three Year Plan.
With the full fervour of our expectant hearts, we call upon you all,
individually and collectively, to arise to the summons of the Lord of Hosts
to teach His Cause. Do so with love, faith and courage; and the doors of
heaven will open wide to pour forth benedictions upon your efforts.
With loving Baha'i greetings
[signed: The Universal House of Justice]
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 15:25:48 EST
Subject: religious "isms"
Dear Friends,
I received a response to the questions regarding the persecutions and
executions of Prophets in the past with an emphatic "so, we would
find Baha'u'llah". One of the reasons why I became a Baha'i was the
apparent lack of religious fanaticism, religious elitism and
superstition in the Baha'i Faith because I have a special allergic
reactions to the mentioned "isms" in all religions. The other is the
deification of the Prophets without proper attention to Their
teachings by Their adherents. Alas! in years I found these elements
within our community as well. My question in general is: (I am
interested in knowing what people think and not references from the
Writings which I can do independently)
Do the Prophets wish to be worshipped?
What is their true mission?
What would happen if Gandhi and Martin Luther King became Baha'is?
(although it may appear divergent from the subject, I see connections)
What is the foundations of spiritual politics/economics?
Thank you.
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Voting at Feast
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 96 15:28:17 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
From: *The Baha'i World* Vol. XVI (1973-1976): p. 475, under the
heading, *Order of Business for the Consultation Period*:
*The meeting is to be open for suggestions and recommendations
from individual believers to the Local Spiritual Assembly on any matter
affecting the Cause. Such recommendations must be adopted by majority vote
of the community members present before constituting a resolution to be
considered by the Local Spiritual Assembly.
... The secretary of the Assembly records each resolution adopted
by the community, as well as the various suggestions advanced during the
meeting, in order to report these to the Spiritual Assembly for its
consideration. Whatever actions the Assembly takes is to be reported at a
later Nineteen-Day Feast.*
Strange to say, but I've been viewed as a troublemaker every time
I recommend this procedure. So, at the request of my wife, I've stopped.
In fact, my life has been very tranquil at Feasts, since I tend not to say
anything any more.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: 01 Jan 96 15:37:21 EST
From: "Mark A. Foster, Ph.D." <72642.3105@compuserve.com>
To: Diane Iverson , Doug MacAdam ,
Talisman
Subject: Re: truth and unity
Talismanians -
Regarding the relationship between truth and unity:
As I see it, unity does not depend on someone's definition of it. IMHO, the
unity of humanity, on a practical level, is manifested in the process of Baha'i
consultation. What that means to me is that Baha'i consultation is based on an
acceptance of the diversity of humanity and that:
1. On a recognition that each of us may view issues differently (When I was at
the SED conference in Orlando, it was apparent that the two retired members of
the Universal House had certain variations in how they saw certain subjects.);
2. On a profound respect (and love) that we must have for one another's
approaches to truth; on an understanding that we can *see,* from a God's-eye
viewpoint, that we are created with our own remarkable individualities;
3. On a recognition that we can see truth as emerging from the spirit of the
unity of humanity in consultation.
4. And on the need for frankness in expressing our views.
Unity does not mean giving in to someone and does not imply not being honest
about one's true heart-felt feelings. A false, or "feel-good," version of unity
is, IMO, based on a misunderstanding of what we are told in our Teachings.
Warm regards to all,
Mark
***************************************************************
*
**************
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist)
Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS
66210-1299
Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society
Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society
Academic Dir. (& Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of
Reality
Board of Directors, (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion
Films)
Science of Reality BBS 913/768-1113 (8-N-1)
mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us
72642.3105@compuserve.com (Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Forums)
Realityman (America Online Religion Staff) UWMG94A (Prodigy)
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality
http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is
Case-Sensitive.)
***************************************************************
*
**************
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Deification of Prophets
To: DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu (QUANTA DAWNLIGHT)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 96 15:51:55 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Quanta raises an interesting question. At firesides, one
frequently hears the criticism that Christianity worships the messenger
rather than the message.
The Qur'an says that God does not wish us to take Prophets as
Lords.
Yet, most Persian Baha'is and others as well worship Baha'u'llah.
He accepted such worship. But I seriously doubt that He approved of it.
Putting unity first, Baha'u'llah in a Tablet states that such piety ought
not to be a cause of divisiveness.
I know of the Master's arguments about the idolatry of the
imagination. But I'm sure my own image of Baha'u'llah is partly a figment
(idol) of my imagination as is as my conception of God. So the best I
can do is to pray to God, like Baha'u'llah did.
I posted this story some months ago, so please forgive me for
repeating it:
Once I asked a Persian woman, *Who do you pray to?* *Baha'u'llah,* was
her reply. Then I asked, *Okay. Now tell me: Who do you teach a seeker at
a fireside to pray to?* She was stunned, and did not answer.
I think that greater unity for the world is achieved by making God
the focus of worship, while it is good to face towards the Mirror of God
in the face of Baha'.
At any rate, I think there should be no disparity between our practices
in public and in private. If we read from past scriptures alongside Baha'i
scriptures at Baha'i temple services, if we pray to God at public
meetings, if we say that Baha'u'llah as the Spirit of Truth glorfies
Christ, then why not practice all of these at Feast as well?
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Russia, here I come!
To: theos-l@vnet.net
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 96 16:03:18 EST
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Having recently complained about the dearth of information
available in English about the rebirth of Theosophy in Russia,
I have been inspired to make a New Year's resolution to learn
Russian and make a research trip before my Cayce book comes
out. Partly, that's due to Cayce's insistence that Russia will
produce some kind of spiritual leadership for the world at the end of the
decade. For that reason, I'd like to write a brief survey of
the religious/occult scene there to include in the book. Then
there's the related interest of Theosophy's rebirth in Russia,
and the independent groups being born there. So, some
questions for you linguists and scholars out there, as well as
for Theosophists who may know something of current events in
Russia:
1) How long can I realistically expect it to take to bring my
Russian up to speed to do basic research, e.g. read a newspaper
and use a library? (This for someone literate in French and
Spanish.) It took about a year of steady effort to get my
Spanish to the level of proficiency I have in mind, but I don't
know if Russian is twice as hard, or three times, etc.
2) Any suggestions about the ease of networking with scholars
in Russian history and religion? Contacts?
3) Any general reports on conditions there for "new" religions
from Baha'is, Theosophists, anyone?
Basically at this point I'm just soliciting helpful suggestions
from anyone on any aspect of doing research in Russia and/or in
Russian sources.
=END=
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:41:00 -0800
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Russia, here I come!
The Russian Language is very easy to learn... On my SAT ( I think) it stated
Russian was my highest score... or some test I took back in High School.
Margreet
At 04:03 PM 1/1/96 EST, K. Paul Johnson wrote:
>
>Having recently complained about the dearth of information
>available in English about the rebirth of Theosophy in Russia,
>I have been inspired to make a New Year's resolution to learn
>Russian and make a research trip before my Cayce book comes
>out. Partly, that's due to Cayce's insistence that Russia will
>produce some kind of spiritual leadership for the world at the end of the
>decade. For that reason, I'd like to write a brief survey of
>the religious/occult scene there to include in the book. Then
>there's the related interest of Theosophy's rebirth in Russia,
>and the independent groups being born there. So, some
>questions for you linguists and scholars out there, as well as
>for Theosophists who may know something of current events in
>Russia:
>1) How long can I realistically expect it to take to bring my
>Russian up to speed to do basic research, e.g. read a newspaper
>and use a library? (This for someone literate in French and
>Spanish.) It took about a year of steady effort to get my
>Spanish to the level of proficiency I have in mind, but I don't
>know if Russian is twice as hard, or three times, etc.
>2) Any suggestions about the ease of networking with scholars
>in Russian history and religion? Contacts?
>3) Any general reports on conditions there for "new" religions
>from Baha'is, Theosophists, anyone?
>
>Basically at this point I'm just soliciting helpful suggestions
>from anyone on any aspect of doing research in Russia and/or in
>Russian sources.
>
=END=
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 14:53:47 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Michael Eissinger
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Need help identifying some old "quotes"
1.
> Rejoice, for the heavenly table is spread for you;
> Rejoice, for the angels of heaven are your assistants and helpers;
> Rejoice, for the glance of the Blessed Beauty, Baha'u'llah is directed
> toward you;
This sounds like the translation of the voice recording we have of the
Master.
2.
> As to thy question thou hast asked in connection with the versse in
> Daniel's book,
> namely; "Blessed is he who cometh to the thousand three hundred and five
> and thirty
> days"... this year should be taken as a solar year and not a lunar one...
A portion of this Tablet by the Master is quoted by Shoghi Effendi and
Lady Blomfield in the pamphlet on The Passing of 'Abdu'l-Baha.
=END=
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 16:03:07 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: Suhrawardi
John was kind enough to post a response to my question on who Suhrawardi
was, and his relevance to the Faith. If I had looked for myself into
Moojan's book "An Introduction to Shi'ih Islam" I could have found the
following information -- and also learned the reason for Nima Hazini's
fascination with Mulla Sadra. I find this most interesting, and wanted to
share this paragraph:
"The major intellectual development in Islam during this period began
during the reign of Shah 'Abbas I but reached its full flowering in the
reigns of his successors. This was the development of Hikmat-i-Ilahi
(al-Hikma al-Ilahiyya), divine philosophy or theosophy, under what has
come to be called the Ishraqi (Illuminationist) school of philosophy or
the so-called 'School of Isfahan' [cite omitted]. the origins of this
school within an Islamic context go back to Shihabu'd-Din Yahya Suhrawardi
(killed in Aleppo in 1191) who believed that to obtain true wisdom it was
necessary to develop both the rational and the intuitive aspects of the
mind. While the former could be achieved through the philosophy of
Aristotle and ibn Sina (Avicenna), the latter required the purification of
the soul which could best be achieved through asceticism, mysticism and
gnosis. the School of Isfahan also drew on the works of Sayyid Haydar
Amuli and ibn Abi Jumhur in bringing together Sufism and the esoteric
aspects of Shi'ism.
"The founder of the School of Isfahan was Muhammad Baqir
Astarabadi, known as Mir Damad (d. 1040/1631). The greatest figure in
this school was Sadru'd-Din Muhammad ibn Ibrahim Shirazi, known as Mulla
Sadra ..." (An Introduction to Shi'ih Islam, pp. 112-113)
----
So, when the Master refers to the "Illuminati" on pages 1, 3 and 91 of
"Memorials of the Faithful" and p. 173 of "Paris Talks" He is referring to
the followers of this school?
Brent
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:00:54 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Mark Foster <72642.3105@compuserve.com>, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Can't think of a subject ;-)
Dear Mark,
The concept of a value free science... This is associated with
positivism... how does this connect with Weber's notion? Thought you would
know... and tell.. as I am too lazy to go look..
Robert.
=END=
Date: 01 Jan 96 18:09:13 EST
From: "Mark A. Foster" <72642.3105@compuserve.com>
To: Diane Iverson , Doug MacAdam ,
Talisman
Subject: Re: religious "isms"
Quanta,
I will take a stab at it.
>> Do the Prophets wish to be worshipped?
I think it depends on what one means by a Prophet. If one is referring to the
human vehicle of Prophethood, i.e., the Soul of Baha'u'llah or of the one of the
other divine Messengers, then I would say that it might not be wise to worship
the Soul and bodily Temple of the Prophet. However, the Soul of the Prophet,
IMHO, is inseparably connected to God manifested (the Manifestation or "the
divine Appearance and heavenly Splendor"). It is that divine Reality which is
our only connection with God - as that "Image and Likeness of God" is reflected
in our own realities. Since we have no way of connecting with the divine
Essence, it would not be possible to directly worship that ultimate Source.
>> What is their true mission?
IMHO, the general mission of all the Prophets is "to convert satanic strength
into heavenly power" (sorry for the quote ). More specifically, each Prophet
has a special Mission which relates to the time and place of Manifestation.
>> What would happen if Gandhi and Martin Luther King
>> became Baha'is? (although it may appear divergent
>> from the subject, I see connections)
Do you mean in the next world?
>> What is the foundations of spiritual politics/economics?
That is a very complex subject. I have put together a lengthy section of my
"worlds of God" compilation which deals with this subject in some depth. Very
briefly, I would say that the foundation is the service motive (rather than the
profit motive).
Blessings,
Mark
************************************************************************
*
*****
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist)
Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299
Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society
Founding President, Two-Year College Sociological Society
Academic Dir. (& Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality
Board of Directors, (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films)
Science of Reality BBS 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us
72642.3105@compuserve.com (Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Forums)
Realityman (America Online Religion Staff) UWMG94A (Prodigy)
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality
http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive.)
************************************************************************
*
*****
>> Quanta Dawn-Light...(*
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 18:57:00 EST
Subject: deification/truth/unity
Dearest talismanians,
I just came back from a New Year's good luck dinner at my christian
minister friend David's house where we enjoyed pot full of black eye
peas and collard greens with corn bread. They get a kick out of this
little foreign woman following a Southern tradition.
There we also pondered upon
"truth vs. unity and liberty". I will share a quote from the Bible
"God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in
SPIRIT AND TRUTH" [emphasis supplied]. John 4:24
"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is
there is the liberty". Corinthians II 3:17
IMHO unity is the outcome of the above verses. When unity becomes the
sole objective at all cost, you will surely end in tyranny, not unity.
Baha'u'llah gives us counsel "to possess a pure kindly and radiant
heart..." which appears to be a prerequisite to justice. Where there
is justice there will be harmony. When justice, truth is sacrificed
for the sake of unity, it will stand on weak grounds and perish
surely.
As to deification of the prophets, regardless of what the scholars
state on the matter, I believe that deification of the Prophet is
not an indication of faith. In fact, I remember (please check) a
phrase from the Guardian that it would be considered a blasphemy to
deify the Prophet and equating him to God, or something like that.
I will say that moslems do not deify Muhammad the way Christians
deify Jesus and perhaps Baha'is deify Baha'u'llah. Why did
Baha'u'llah prohibit the use of His picture in every household?
love, learn, serve
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 19:05:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Michael:
I think we are getting somewhere with this discussion, and so will reply
briefly to try to clear up some misunderstandings.
One problem is that I have concrete problems in my mind when I make these
points, which are not apparent in this abstract discussion of principle.
I'll get around to mentioning these below.
On Mon, 1 Jan 1996 curtotti@ozemail.com.au wrote:
> Dear Juan,
>
> Your comment that:
>
> >Baha'u'llah in his own context was the
> >equivalent of a Thomas Jefferson, defying absolute monarchs by calling
> >for their demotion to constitutional rulers, with real power given into
> >th hands of the people ...
>
> provides a context for some observations that I wanted to make in relation
> to your earlier post. i.e. looking at the whole exercise of critiquing the
> Baha'i system on the basis of democratic norms. (I am sure you will be
> aware of the House of Justice's comments on this but I will try to refer to
> 'reason' rather than 'authority' in pursuing this point). Many of your
> comments suggest that if only we could make the Baha'i system more
> "democratic" as this term is understood in America, then many of the
> problems would be resolved.
But I haven't instanced "American" democracy as an improvement on the
Baha'i system. I instanced the values held by Baha'u'llah and
`Abdu'l-Baha. In the Tablet of the World Baha'u'llah called the form of
government practiced in Britain the best form of government; it was *He*
who recommended parliamentary democracy. In *Secret of Divine
Civilization* `Abdu'l-Baha advocates open elections for governmental
posts on the grounds that the authorities will be less likely to act
dictatorially if they know they might face the wrath of the electorate in
the next election. To make the argument between "American" practices and
"Baha'i" ones would be to commit all sorts of fallacies. The question I
am raising is whether current Baha'i practice meets the ideals of the
Founder of the Faith.
> Freedom of the press is one of the central themes of democratic systems -
> and often regarded as a bulwark of democratic freedom. An appeal to Baha'i
> journalism thus may contain unstated assumptions about the 'rightness' and
> 'value' of a so called free press. Let us turn the table and critique the
> democratic myth. In fact the press is far from free - it belongs and is
> utilised in the interests of a small, wealthy and powerful minority who
> utilise it to dominate and direct political debate, and to acquire
> additional wealth. The press in fact can be regarded as one of the
> 'powerful vested interests' whom I referred to in my last post. At the
> most cynical the dynamic can be analysed in this way - politicians wish to
> be re-elected - the press wishes to make money . . . Conversely
> freedom of the press is a myth in
> another important sense - the Government deliberately manipulates the media
> by controlling information available to it so as to bolster its chances of
> re-election or achieve its other goals. Often press reports are little
> more than repackages Government press releases. The press is far from the
> omniscient eye of the public exposing Govt misfeasance at every turn.
This is a good Marxist attack on freedom of speech as a mask for economic
vested interests, and it is the sort of reasoning that kept people in the
dark in Eastern Europe for forty years recently. Bourgeois freedom of
speech would just be an oppression of the people, the Party apparatchiks
argued. Are Baha'i officials really willing to make this argument in
this way? What do you think Vaclav Havel thinks about this argument?
Being on the Left myself, I can sympathize with elements of this critique.
But there is every reason to hope that the advent of the Information Age
has the potential for addressing some of the problems you rightly identify
(and which have been identified by C. Wright Mills and Jurgen Habermas).
Cyberspace is inexpensive and has led to an explosion of interactivity
and easy access to information. The way in which it was used to
circumvent a Tobacco corporation's attempt to suppress information was
detailed recently by Jon Wiener in *The Nation*.
In any case, I cite again `Abdu'l-Baha on this issue:
"In later years `Abdu'l-Baha preached these ideals in the West. He
greatly appreciated the American constitution. At the Central
Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912, he said: "Just as
in the world of politics there is need for free thought, likewise in the
world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted individual
belief. Consider what a vast difference exists between modern
democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic
government the opinions of men are not free, and development is
stifled, whereas in a democracy, because thought and speech are not
restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the
world of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and
right of speech prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his
own idealization may give expression to his beliefs--development and
growth are inevitable."1 At the Universalist Church Washington, D.C.
on 6 Nov. 1912, he said: "Praise be to God! The standard of liberty is
held aloft in this land. You enjoy political liberty; you enjoy liberty of
thought and speech, religious liberty, racial and personal liberty."2
`Abdu'l-Baha believed that the advantages of freedom of the press
outweighed the disadvantages. Since the Iranian state has all along
attempted to repress the Baha'is' right to express themselves publicly, I
should have thought we would support this freedom; otherwise, we are
handing the Iranian state arguments whereby it may repress us!
> By this discussion I don't want to dismiss the problems you identify in the
> Community, these are real, the question is whether the solution lies in
> recourse to elements of a system flawed in important respects. Would the
> creation of a journalistic elite in the Faith really empower the Baha'i
> Community? or would it result in the same sort of "mass" that you identify
> as characterising public thinking in democracies?
I haven't advocated the creation of a journalistic elite. I've advocated
freedom of speech and freedom of the press, which are Baha'i values. And
I think contemporary communication technologies have the potential to be
more interactive and more egalitarian, if only we can seize them for
these purposes before the corporations and the political elite grab them
the way they did the airwaves.
> The solution suggested by Shoghi Effendi seems to be individual
> responsibility of the voter to find out, to be informed, to be concerned,
> to consider the issues and members of the Community. Perhaps a greater
> effort along these lines would produce a better result.
Right. Baha'i individuals are in a position to find out what NSAs or the
LSAs of large cities are up to, all on their own. Please.
> I want to continue this critique of democracy for the purposes of contrast
> and context - because I think most who have studied the writings will agree
> that the Baha'i system does not claim perfection - it does however offer
> itself as an improvement on other political and religious systems.
I'm sorry, but I feel that what followed was a set of straw men that did
not address my problems.
1. Racism: There is nothing inherent in democratic politics that
requires racism, nor is there any particular evidence that Baha'is on the
whole are less racist than, say, Methodists or Unitarians, who
participate actively in democratic politics. Racism is not a problem
peculiar to "American democracy." Ask the Tibetans if it is absent from
Chinese Communism, or the Basque if it was absent from Spanish fascism.
Actually, I've even heard that it exists in Australia.
2. extremes of wealth and poverty: The Baha'i community is, of course,
highly stratified in terms of the distribution of wealth. This was
especially true of Iran before 1979. There is no evidence I can see that
Baha'is have done anything of note to reduce extremes of wealth and
poverty, either within their community or without. They mostly seem
interested in proselytization, and eschew practical projects that might
detract from it. There are exceptions, as with the Indian tutorial
schools. But not many.
3. Universal peace and world unity. I doubt these things can be
achieved without democracy and the sort of values that are enshrined in
the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which are on the whole
supported by Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha. The Universal House of
Justice itself has acknowledged that adoption of the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights is among the prerequisites for world peace.
As for the claim that the democracies have not promoted world peace, this
strikes me as irrelevant. No governmental system has, and even the
communists, such as China and Vietnam, have fallen to warring among
themselves, as have the Muslims. The point is that Baha'u'llah and
`Abdu'l-Baha thought democracy key to world peace.
> Sometimes Baha'is fall into the trap of 'evil world out there', 'pure
> Baha'i community in here'. Of course this is a distortion of the truth -
> and there is much to be valued in democracy and America's democracy. It is
> not however a perfect system and therefore should be utilised very
> cautiously when proposing 'improvements' to the Baha'i system.
The Founder of the Baha'i Faith recommended
British-style parliamentary democracy. And `Abdu'l-Baha expressed
admiration for the freedoms of the American first amendment. I don't know
why you keep bringing up America, which I did not. You're not stereotyping
me, are you?
As for the problem of the Baha'i electoral system not providing enough
information to allow voters in large urban communities or at the national
level to vote intelligently, and of it favoring long-term incumbency, all
you have done is suggest that long-term incumbency might be a good
thing. You have not engaged the argument. It might be a bad thing. The
Guardian thought new blood vital to the functioning of the administration.
>
> Is not the Feast a venue where a recommendation can be put, seconded and
> voted upon by the Community (i.e. the entire electorate) in order to signal
> the view of the "Feast", as opposed to the view of individual members of
> the Community? How would you improve this system? Is this not a public
> and democratic forum for debate of community issues?
As Christopher Buck points out, there is often resistance to employing
the Feast for this purpose. Even if it could be accomplished, why should
the NSA listen to one community of forty people in, say, Omaha, when it
has thousands of LSAs?
I would improve the system by introducing
1) a free Baha'i press
2) opinion polling
3) nation-wide referenda of the California sort on propositions approved
by the NSA.
> >as
> >mandating something like Leninist democratic centralism, wherein the
> >elected form a sort of elective dictatorship.
>
> Your reference to 'Leninism' prompts me to refer to a difficulty I had with
> your earlier post - which was the sweeping references to 'fascism' and
> 'communism' - as spectres of where the Faith might end up or elements of
> its current features.
Given that you have attacked parliamentary democracy and freedom of the
press as inherently racist, violent screens for bourgeois oppression, you
can hardly take umbrage when I compare your values to those of
non-democratic systems. Since you say you are interested in political
science, why don't you tell me in what ways the current Baha'i system
differs from democratic centralism? It is easy enough to caricature
fascism now that it is defeated, but rightwing Spanish Catholic
intellectuals of the 1960s could defend it against "American democracy"
with fervor, and some of their arguments sound an awfully lot like what
one hears from some Baha'is on Bahai-discuss.
Remember my concrete problems:
1) official Baha'i unease with academic study of the Baha'i faith,
manifesting itself in the MacEoin crisis of the late 1970s and the
Research Department statement on scholarship of 1980;
2) subjection of the Los Angeles Study Class notes to prepublication
censorship before they could be distributed (1979-1982);
3) official censorship of a primary source such Muhammad `Ali Salmani's
memoirs of Baha'u'llah (1982);
4) disallowal of a conference on Baha'i history in Los Angeles in 1983 by
the Association for Baha'i Studies (it was sponsored by the US NSA instead);
5) refusal of permission to Kalimat Press to publish a bibliography
written by Denis MacEoin (1987?);
6) The charging of the editors of *Dialogue* magazine with "negative
campaigning" for making some suggestions on how to improve the
functioning of the US community; leading to the closure of *Dialogue*
magazine (1989);
7) The deprivation of the rights of Baha'is by the US NSA for raising
questions about its financial dealings; note that the NSA acted here as
defendant, prosecutor and judge, all rolled into one (1992-1995);
8) the derailing of the *Baha'i Encyclopaedia* (1993-1995).
This is not to mention the constant demand for prepublication censorship
of everything written by Baha'is about their religion.
> >I want to see the
> >Baha'i Faith reformed, so as to be true to its own essence.
>
> I am sure most of us what to see a better faith - more in tune with the
> teachings of Baha'u'llah - need we be so critical of current conditions to
> achieve this end? What seems to be needed is practical proposals that can
> be put to Assembly's for their consideration and implementation.
In at least two instances of which I am aware, submission of practical
proposals to the US NSA for their consideration resulted in the
prosecution of the submitters. In some instances believers involved in
making practical suggestions have been invited to leave the Faith or have
been ordered to give up their wayward views and propound those of the
elected institutions.
> Thanks again
>
> Michael
>
> (curtotti@ozemail.com.au)
warmest regards Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Re: Voting at Feast
To: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 17:13:04 MST
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Chris:
In trouble again, eh!?
> From: *The Baha'i World* Vol. XVI (1973-1976): p. 475, under the
> heading, *Order of Business for the Consultation Period*:
>
> *The meeting is to be open for suggestions and recommendations
> from individual believers to the Local Spiritual Assembly on any matter
> affecting the Cause. Such recommendations must be adopted by majority vote
> of the community members present before constituting a resolution to be
> considered by the Local Spiritual Assembly.
>
> ... The secretary of the Assembly records each resolution adopted
> by the community, as well as the various suggestions advanced during the
> meeting, in order to report these to the Spiritual Assembly for its
> consideration. Whatever actions the Assembly takes is to be reported at a
> later Nineteen-Day Feast.*
My understanding is that recommendations, sharing of ideas or constructive
criticisms may be offered by either individuals or the Feast itself to the
LSA, NSA or UHJ. The majority vote (or unanimous) referred to in your
first paragraph above is very much in line with Baha'i democracy as provided
for at the Feast. I would recommend to your community that a study of
the Feast is in order. Regarding your particular concern may I suggest
"Stirrings of the Spirit", p.3., pp.33-37 especially items #79, #80, #82,
and #85.
Sorry, I didn't want to type these in and I don't have a scanner, yet!
> Strange to say, but I've been viewed as a troublemaker every time
> I recommend this procedure. So, at the request of my wife, I've stopped.
> In fact, my life has been very tranquil at Feasts, since I tend not to say
> anything any more.
What makes you think your life is "very tranquil at Feasts" if you do
not feel at ease to share your gifts. I suggest you unburden your concerns
at the Feast in a manner that is dignified and uplifting for the Feast
participants. I believe you indicated in a previous posting today about
being told at the Feasts in Calgary that a voted recommendation was an
American thing. Let me guess! It was the Chair that advised you of this,
right? May I suggest, giving all due respect to the Assembly (through its
rep) for the general conduct of the Feast, that you address your request
for a vote on a recommendation, not to the Chair, but to the Feast? Sorry
Chris if I sound pedantic, but the Chair doesn't decide on such things,
the Feast decides to recommend or not, including whether or not it
wishes to vote on a recommendation.
But struggling with personalities is where we are sometimes, especially
if we make old-world idols of them.
Loving regards, stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:54:18 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Dear Talismans,
I am appreciative of Juan Cole's lucid problem statement regarding the need
for administrative evolution (a term which might be more accurate than
reform, since it emphasizes the developmental aspect of the process). Welcome
to Michael Curtotti, whose dialog with Juan on this issue is an example of
the best type of creation of meaning through the interplay of ideas...
However, it seems to be restating the obvious to continue to talk about the
necessity for an improved Baha'i administration. All organizations, including
other major religions, have faced this problem during their expansion
phase-- it is inevitable. The religious historians on the list could inform
this point by discussing examples from the early days of Christianity and
Islam, when the two systems moved from a regional to a pan-national focus. We
stand today in the same position as the early adherents of those two Faiths,
and can imagine that our Faith in 1,000 years will have evolved a greatly
elaborated administrative structure as well.
Since joining Talisman, my consciousness of the problems facing the US
community has been raised considerably. (In the pioneer field, there are
other problems). Since the heart of the Faith is the local community, how
can delegates gather information about outside members (other than
incumbents) in order to make informed choices?
Well, in large, international professional organizations, voters can learn
about able people through their published biodatas, their publications and
talks, meeting them at professional gatherings etc. With the development of
online communication services, it is likely that, in the future, there will
be similar Baha'i biodata banks, archives of talks and publications, and
other ways to find out about people outside the immediate community.
Also, delegates will probably take their role very seriously and will request
release time from their other duties in order to do research on the
achievements of incumbents and the background of others.
In the meantime, we must use the power of divine confirmations and guidance
to seek concrete solutions to identified problems. Again and again we have
been told that these resources are available to help us develop. Individual
prayer and reflection, on the one hand, and conferences such as the Bosch
Mysticism conference in February, on the other, will help the friends come up
with specific ways and means for improvement.
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
[end of 1/1/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/2/96
---------------------------------------------------------
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: *Religion is Progressive*
To: jrcole@umich.edu (Juan R Cole)
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 96 23:04:27 EST
Cc: curtotti@ozemail.com.au, talisman@indiana.edu
Zaid Lundberg and others have expressed an interest in the Persian
technical term for *Progressive Revelation*. Unfortunately, the Arabic text
in Gleanings, page 75/Muntakhabati, page 56, does not literally support the
translation, *Progressive Revelation*. The context, of course, does.
Recently, I came across this reference: *Revelation is progressive
and continuous* (PUP 373). As I have neither PUP nor *Khitabat*, I thought
I'd ask Ahang or Juan or another worthy soul with both those books to
cross-reference PUP 373 with *Khitabat* to see if *nuzul-i Tadriji* is
supported by the Persian text. If it is, we then have a textual basis for
the *Progressive Revelation* in Persian, and evidence that it was the
Master who gave it currency. Otherwise, I must conclude that it was the
Guardian himself who coined this term.
On another PUP text: Juan, can you cite the relevant passages in
*Khitabat* for these two passages you cited?:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
At the Central Congregational Church in Brooklyn on 16 June 1912, he
said: "Just as in the world of politics there is need for free thought,
likewise in the world of religion there should be the right of unrestricted
individual belief. Consider what a vast difference exists between modern
democracy and the old forms of despotism. Under an autocratic government
the opinions of men are not free, and development is stifled, whereas in a
democracy, because thought and speech are not restricted, the greatest
progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world of religion.
When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech
prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization
may give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable."1
At the Universalist Church Washington, D.C. on 6 Nov. 1912, he said:
"Praise be to God! The standard of liberty is held aloft in this land.
You enjoy political liberty; you enjoy liberty of thought and speech,
religious liberty, racial and personal liberty."2
_______________
The technical terms would be nice, too, Juan.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 23:59:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Secret of Divine Civilization
Brent raised the question of the relevance of *Secret of Divine
Civilization* to Baha'i administration.
Actually, what I have been trying to say is that in the original
languages, both Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha tend to use the *same*
vocabulary for Baha'i and civil institutions, and seem to make
assumptions that they would function concurrently and in a parallel fashion.
Thus, the word "majlis" can mean "parliament" or can refer to a house of
justice or community assemblage. "Consultation" refers to parliamentary
deliberation as well as to the consultation of houses of justice and
Baha'i communities. Many of Baha'u'llah's remarks on the functioning of
consultative assemblies have not been translated.
Some principles are rational. When `Abdu'l-Baha in SDC says that
officials should be elected because their desire to be re-elected will
help keep them from committing injustice, there is no obvious reason to
restrict this reasoning only to the civil sphere. SDC in fact begins
with an encomium to Reason.
But I'd be glad to hear from others on this issue.
warmest regards and best wishes for the New Year - Juan Cole, History,
Univ. of Michigan
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: religious "isms"
Date: 01 Jan 1996 17:07:13 GMT
Quanta -
> Do the Prophets wish to be worshipped?
I don't believe so. And I believe the reason follows from my next answer.
> What is their true mission?
To bring mankind to God.
I believe that the social effect of their mission is solely a reflection of
the success of the extent to which this is accomplished. I further believe
from this that the lack of success of the Faith at this time is due to the
emphasis on the social aspects of the Writings at the expense of the
religious ones. Until we truly believe that our primary purpose is to assist
in bringing man to God, and not to bring about a new world order, that
'spiritual' has to do with our relationship with God, not our psychological
state, progress will be minimal.
> What would happen if Gandhi and Martin Luther King became Baha'is?
I don't know.
> What is the foundations of spiritual politics/economics?
Seeing ourselves and others primarily as spiritual beings, created in the
image of God.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Voting at Feast
Date: 01 Jan 1996 17:06:59 GMT
Chris -
I have never been able to figure out the particular purpose of formal
resolutions from the Feast. Are they supposed to have more significance than
suggestions by an individual that are not passed by a majority vote? Or is
it that only these resolutions require a report bacvk to the community?
I rather suspect that it is the latter, and is of primary importance in
farily large communityies where there is an active period of consultation.
In the communities that I have been in, I don't think that it has really made
much difference. If the Assembly and community were functioning at a fairly
high level, then this was done; if not, it wasn't. And the presence or
absence of a formal vote really didn't make any difference.
BTW, I see you're sending messages to yourself. Are you using email to
communicate btwn your creative and analytical sides? 8-)
> Subject: Voting at Feast
> From: Christopher Buck,cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca,Internet
> To: Don R. Calkins
> Talisman@indiana.edu,Internet
> Copies: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck),Internet
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 96 16:47:08 PST
Subject: RE: religious "isms"
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT , talisman@indiana.edu,
748-9178@mcimail.com
On Mon, 1 Jan 1996 15:25:48 EST QUANTA DAWNLIGHT wrote:
>Do the Prophets wish to be worshipped?
>What is their true mission?
>What would happen if Gandhi and Martin Luther King became Baha'is?
>(although it may appear divergent from the subject, I see
connections)
>What is the foundations of spiritual politics/economics?
>
>Thank you.
>
>Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
>
Dear Quanta,
Great questions. You want our opinions, not writings.
Do the Prophets wish to be worshipped.?
I think the Prophets seems to speak from several different stations.
In some stations they are totally selfless and what we get is a Voice
speaking thru them that wishes to be worshiped.
In the prophets, there is something about their Ego that is in total
submission to something else. Their Ego does not wish to be
worshipped but rather wishes us to join it in its worship of that
Other.
What is their true mission?
To teach the rest of us all the deepest truths about our lives and
to help us understand why we have been created? I often ask myself
why am I here, why is this so hard and what should I do with my life
and my gifts and talents. They are here to help me with these
questions. and also to help us all.
And, I guess the answer to these questions involves my understanding
of how I fit into the context of the rest of life. And they are here
to help me understand that as well. To help us all understand that
and to help us live according to that understanding.
Ghandi and King, if they were to have become Baha'is? I doubt that
is would have changed much about how they conducted themselves.
Maybe King would have been more contained in his private life. But it
probably would have changed the way the world perceived them. They
were probably more effective and had more credibility for their own
missions as members of a dominate and easily related to local
religion. It helped King gain the following he did that he was
Christian. A similar point could be made for Ghandi. Their missions
had to do with realizing the truths of their already known
revelations. Their mission did not have to do with bringing forth a
new revelation. Although both understood more than probably most
Bahais even today, about the inner meaning of unity.
The foundation of spiritual politics and economics? The knowledge of
the truth of the deep interconnectedness of all that lives.
Thank you for this opportunity.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/01/96
Time: 16:47:09
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 96 16:25:42 PST
Subject: RE: Problems, Desires for Structural Reforms and a Vision
To: Alethinos@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu, 748-9178@mcimail.com
On Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:42:48 -0500 Alethinos@aol.com wrote:
> Sometimes this whole process reminds me of trying to clean a
closet with
>you inside and the door closed . . .
What a great metaphor!
> Group two is composed of: a) those that are well aware of such
problems
>and have either drifted away, become inactive or completely quit the
Faith
>because of it, b) those that know exactly what is wrong with the
community
>and God help ya if you happen to get in their way -
>shut-up-sit-down-I'll-tell-you-what-your-opinion-is-there-didn't-we-s
ave-a
>lot-of-time-on-needless-consulting" types, c) those that wish to
have a
>bloodless, or only-a-little-blood-from-that-guy-over-there coup, and
d) those
>that really DO know what the community needs but no one listens to
them
Well I know which one describes
>me(but modesty proscribes me from pointing out which catagory.)
>
Jim, I'd bet you put yourself in d and maybe also in B.
But it's misleading because people in both those categories only
THINK they know exactly what is wrong with everyone else.
Jim, I have trouble with this next section of your posting:
> Seriously though. We need to recognize that much of the community
really
>is *ignorant* in the broadest sense of the word. I am sure most of
us have
>travelled enough and been around long enough to recognize most of
the *types*
>of mentality that compose the bulk of the communities one finds
across this
>continent. What is going to wake these folks up? Will we spend
another decade
>trying to foster essentially a revolt?
etc.
It comes out as though you are saying we need a change and a real
change. Okay.
> No one doubts, or few do, that the Administrative Order, as a
strucuture,
>is immature - desperately so. But the Administrative Order is not a
machine.
>It is run by people. And even if we tossed them all out today and
started
>over with a fresh lot we would very shortly I wager find ourselves
in the
>same predicament.
Jim, this untangles your own argument. A structure is different from
the people. If the problem is in the structure, then changing the
people doesn't change the problem.
You seem to be saying the change is not the structure. But than you
say that changing the people won't solve the problem.
You're argument doesn't make sense to me.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 96 11:04:41 PST
Subject: apology
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear friends,
I just posted an unfinished draft and don't have anyway to pull it
back without losing the draft. Letting it go out is the only way I
can get a copy for myself. My apologies for sending all my confusion
out on the bandwidth when I could have avoided it.
And, come to think of it, apologies for the confusion I've sent out
when I couldn't have avoided it..
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/01/96
Time: 11:04:42
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 96 10:43:02 PST
Subject: More on the ethical dilemma
To: talisman@indiana.edu, wog@poseidon.usnus.abb.com,
Jim Blake <0006596916@mcimail.com>, 748-9178@mcimail.com
How cam we be in submission to a call to religious orthodoxy and at
the same time avoid becoming a 'traditional defender of religious
orthodoxy'.
It does occur to me that the answer to this question is what's new in
Baha'ullah's Revelation.
Possibly this is the inner meaning of Unity?
I have to confess that I really don't understand this Unity.
A friend of mine who is not university educated demonstrated
learnedness to me the other day and somehow explained the Bahai
vision of working out differenced worked. And for a moment I saw it
and then it disappeared.
I knew that I had heard something beyond my imaginative capacities
and that the Baha'i idea of Unity (not that I know what it is) is
really new to me.
This connects me to the learned vs wise thread, and thru a curious
route: brain functions.
In his new book, Emotional Intelligence, Daniel Goleman describes the
relationship between the feeling/emotional brain centers (located in
the Limbic system, primarily in the amydgala) and the thinking
centers (located in the neocortex.) His discussion of these two
functions is roughly parellel to the sort of thing we read when we
talk about the knowledge of the thinking mind and the knowledge of
the knowing heart.
The feeling brain, the amygdala, is structured early in life and
makes value judgements. Rather precise ones, at that. These immediate
yes/no, good/bad, embrace/reject decisions are modulated and thought
over by the neo-cortical system.
A man who had the amygdala damaged and who was brilliant businessman
soon lost all his money. He was as smart as every and could analyze
like the best of them. But he couldn't evaluate.
Wisdom must be either the interplay of the two thinking systems, or
-- now I'm thinking -- the manifestation of the workings of the
amygdala.
The responses of the amytdala can be modified and reshaped.
Now, back to wisdom, learning and infallibility.
And remember, I'm trying to weave these threads together to help me
understand the nature of Baha'ullah's revelation.
I am a Bahai because I suspect I have been given information about a
way of evaluating life and human action that is subtler and truer to
the deepest currents of Life than I am capable of sensing and
imagining. And I am looking for a transformation of my emotional
heart, the judgement center located in the amygdala, my emotional
intelligence, my sense of my Call in Life.
So the orthodoxy is in my judgement, not in my analysis?
Hell, I'm lost again.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/01/96
Time: 10:43:02
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 00:39:34 EST
Subject: Re: religious "isms"/Progressive Revelation
Dear Don and Chris,
To save time, I thought of combining my responses to both.
My question to Chris is how do you determine "worthy souls"?
Don, in my twentyfour years of associating with religious people
including Baha'is is that there is much rhetoric on spirituality, but
no depth. What I see here on talisman is concern with building new
political structures where the human power is utilized in a more
democratic, etc. ways. People whose concerns meant to be building a
more spiritual society are side-tracked with systemic issues only.
Last Friday I had a 45 minute debate with a local talk-show host
regarding human nature, residual effects of million men march in
future economic development of the African-American community.
I concluded the debate by saying that unless and until we as human
beings recognize our true nature and mission in life, everything we
do to improve systems will be futile effort. It is ironic that those
who were oppressed want to use the same tools of the oppressors to
achieve the same goals that they dislike in their oppressors.
Some of these measures they like to use are, racial discrimination,
brutal competition, crass materialism, political divisiveness etc.
etc. In fact, the showman stated that capitalism and survival of the
fittest and various other Western ideals are valid and indicative of
the human nature. I responded "Then, you should not be angry at the
white men for doing what he did historically, since it was just human
nature". I will continue the debate this Friday with him. By the way,
he thinks my ideas are pure Utopia which will never materialize.
We also dealt with concepts of God no name of religions mentioned.
So, although I am reluctant to accept Jim H.'s "trained bears"
message from 12/20/95 due to brutal categorizations of people,
in principle he is right when he says we have to challenge the very
foundations of thought in this country. So, pray on Friday eve for
this "unworthy soul" who is putting herself on the firing line of
the battle fields, which is the weak structure of human thoughts.
love, learn, serve
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 22:56:13 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: "Don R. Calkins"
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Voting at Feast
On 1 Jan 1996, Don R. Calkins wrote:
> I have never been able to figure out the particular purpose of formal >
resolutions from the Feast. Are they supposed to have more significance
than > suggestions by an individual that are not passed by a majority
vote? Or is > it that only these resolutions require a report bacvk to
the community?
At least at the National Convention, those recommendations which
originate with a delegate, which are approved by the body of delegates,
come into the NSA meeting as recommendations from the body of delegates.
These are published in The American Baha'i some months later, with the
responses from the NSA.
Recommendations by individual delegates to the NSA which are not submitted
to the body of delegates for discussion and a vote, are also presented to
the NSA. None of these are published in the American Baha'i. I do not
have any information on how these reach the agenda of the NSA, how
carefully they are evaluated in comparison to group recommendations, etc.
So I suppose it's safe to say that the US NSA views formal resolutions
from delegates differently, and might very well apply the same principle
to recommendations from the friends to the LSA or the NSA made at Feast.
Likewise, I would bet that if I looked into Developing Distinctive Baha'i
Communities I'd find this principle elaborated by the US NSA for the US
Baha'i community re: consultation / recommendations at Feast.
Brent
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Voting at Feast
To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 1:46:21 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca, Talisman@indiana.edu
Ahang: I support your letter to the House for an *In Memoriam* for
Fadil. Still waiting to hear about ZH 4.
Juan: How do we start a free press? I wish some kind of endowment
could materialize for the resurrection of *Dialogue*. As to national
referenda, I hadn't thought of that before. Under what circumstances do
you foresee the utility of such a vote?
All of the Central Figures (except possibly for the Bab) supported
a responsible free press. And accurate encyclopedias.
Don: Yes, I send messages to myself to make sure I actually sent the
message, then I delete it. In fact, I hardly ever keep anything I post.
Nothing I say is very profound. I try my best in formal writing, however.
The reason I think that formal recommendations are more important
is that voting involves a group dynamic. A secretary at any given Feast
can duly note every single individual suggestion that was made and pass it
on to the Assembly. That's fine.
There's just one problem. The LSA has not heard from the
*community*! Individuals from the community have spoken, but not the
community itself.
Quanta: *Worthy souls* was tongue-in-cheek. I thought you knew me
better than to take it otherwise. As to systemic change, this can have an
impact on the spirit. In fact, the Guardian speaks of the process of
self-transformation you describe as characteristic of salvation in
Christianity.
And I agree with you on worshipping Prophets, but you can't
successfully discourage Baha'is from doing it (in my experience at least).
The Baha'i concept, according to the Guardian, is the *inverse* of
that, where we try to effect a systemic change in society which, in turn,
reacts on the individual.
I have a brain and I have a heart. My thoughts are feelings.
Spiritual transformation is needed to make the system work. But if the
system could be improved, spirituality might be harnessed more effectively
at a collective level. Both are complementary.
Jim: Can't anyone with REFER find the word *hasten*? Yes, the
Guardian does say that the Baha'is may *hasten* the Lesser Peace. Have you
given up trying to locate that quote.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Primary Sources on Baha'u'llah
To: jrcole@umich.edu (Juan R Cole)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 14:02:07 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
On 15 Nov. 1994, Juan Cole wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There are four major primary biographies by companions of Baha'u'llah:
the second, short, section of Nabil's Narrative; the chronicle of Aqa Riza
Qannad-i Shirazi; the Chronicle of Aqa Husayn Ashchi; and the chronicle
of Muhammad-`Ali Salmani. There is also a two-volume biography of
Baha'u'llah in Fadil Mazandarani's Tarikh-i Zuhur al-Haqq (vols. 4 & 5) that
uses many primary sources. None of these six books has been published in
Persian. Only one, Salmani, has appeared in English, but the text is not
complete.
________________________________
From this inventory, it would appear that Fadil is the second Nabil.
Ahang, Juan, or John (or another *worthy soul*): Could you give us
a brief description of each of these manuscripts, and why Baha'i academics
and historians at large are denied access to them? Is this a matter of
policy? If so, what is the rationale behind the policy?
Ahang, we are all waiting for your introduction to ZH 4!
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:00:02 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Mensa without the N DC at night and day part 2.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians the saga goes on :
Linda's DC naughties :
After gathering evidence slowly and carefully as a good researcher
should . I now feel ready to inform the world what happened at Mensa
without the N in Washington DC .
In part one already posted it became clear that this was a repeat of
the
dreadful AAR Philly happenings not long ago . However this time
John had come along so what to do with the poor maligned chap was
Linda's quandary .Her other problem was that the conference had
refused to discuss her theory that the Butriyya far from following
Mu'tazila doctrine had in fact engaged in arm wrestling standing on
fast moving racing camels . The bouts occurring in the camp of
Abdu'llah ibn Mu'awiya in the mountains near the Caspian Sea . The
winner receiving a bucket of caviar in 128 AH and 5 surgeons in 129
AH .< The winner expecting edibles and the 5 physicians expecting
patients being highly confused . A future subject for some worthy
middle eastern scholar no doubt ? > . Exactly what that has to do with
claim of Uthman to be regarded as a Caliph is beyond myself to
imagine .
Linda came up with the brilliant plan of trap 'John in the Hotel
Bedroom ' at night . She is a paid up member of 'Shi'ite women rule '
,
a semi-secret organization that offers help to fellow members
especially the President elect. I am sure all my fellow Talismanians
were horrified to hear that certain pious
Shi'ite Ladies had made temp' marriage overtures to John on the basis
of Arabic Grammar .
This was Linda's diabolical plan ; the ladies every 15 minutes came
knocking on the Walbridge Suite door . I can here the soft call even
now " Please Professor Walbridge let us in now , we need Arabic
Grammar , marry my sister and I until Dawn 'sigha' is good " . John
brave humble soul he is did not realize this was all Linda's doing .
As
he barricaded the door against the mass hordes of Wild Hotel
Bedroom door bashing pious Shi'ite women he thought his last
moments had arrived . At that moment he wondered if he would have
been better to have studied Latin or Geology like his friend Rob
Stockman .
Free from spousal restrictions , Linda accompanied by several of her
supporters found Harry's Bar. In the bar was none other than Dairy
Queen Jimmy from Linda's teenage years . He has changed his name
to Carlos the Flamingo Dancing King . His Castanets flashed and
clicked as he beat out the sound . Linda immediately jumped up , fans
whirling heels stomping and whirling her skirts to the beat danced the
night away once more with dear Jimmy .and his flying toupee .
In the morning following Latin night she had a bitter augment with an
Afghanistan Scholar who claimed that Ziyarat could not be performed
in New Jersey which Linda apparently does . Grabbing the man by the
nose she bellowed in his left ear that 'Do you hear me now Sweetie '
102 times . The man passed out and was taken off to Bethesda
Hospital with an acute long nose problem and burst eardrums ..
The 'Shi'ite Women rule ' attack squad spent their days hounding the
various hotel bars spray painting various patrons hair bright green .
With the loud battle cry of " O lay oh Linda " they emptied each bar
quicker than a speeding bullet . Linda insisted that she be allowed to
present her paper on how polyandry will allow men to become their
true selves in a post-Shi'i society based on the teachings of Rin Tin
Tin . The Mensa with out the N committee turned down her demand .
What Linda found particularly galling the co-chairperson actually has
been practicing polyandry herself for several years . Linda then
commandeered the hotel paging system to announce " Why should
Lusinda keep all the husbands for herself , Ladies stand up for your
rights . More husbands less problems " One hotel guest not at the
conference thought this was a new book by Elizabeth Taylor and
ordered 10 copies from the already confused Hotel gift shop. Who
had unwillingly started stocking spray cans of green and yellow paint
for Linda's Shi'ite Women's Attack squad . to be continued ......
Part 3 the painful final hours of Mensa without the N will appear on
your screens this coming weekend . See Linda perform on the
vertical bars , the true story of Juan trapped by the Wild Shi'ite
Women attack squad in the laundry room and many more moments .
My dear friend Burl has some treasured moments of his own to share
of Linda's activities . I understand although he is still shocked over
the details conveyed to him .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut ,
PS As if I would be seen in a UPS uniform really Linda.
=END=
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 11:53:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: various
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
1. I'm still in state of absolute elation over the latest message
of the House of Justice, dated Dec 31, where they have called for
the forthcoming Four-Year Plan to be singularly focused on Entry by
Troops. My heart is filled with joy as I think back over this
marvelous message. All I can say is, thank God!
Shoghi Effendi is right, "we must bury our problems in a sea of new
believers".
2. Was delighted to hear yesterday from Prof Amin Banani that a
portion of the forthcoming annual Persian Arts and Culture
conference in Wilmette (late May 96) will be devoted to honor
Fadil-i Mazandarani, and in fact Dr. Banani will share many glimpses
of Fadil's early years of service which took place in company of
Mirza Abu'l-Husayn Ardistani (Dr. Banani's illustrious grandfather).
This promises to be a turning point.
3. Give the very encouraging climate, suggest publication of
Zuhuru'l-Haqq, volume 4, which covers Baha'u'llah Ministry during
1852-1866, in original language and an abridgment in English.
I still hope to find some time to finish ZH-3 discussion and start
ZH-4.
4. Regarding Ruhe/Buck formulation of the Guardian's spheres of
infallibility:
_____________________________________________
> The Guardian's Three Spheres of Infallibility
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Sceptre.................Head of the Faith/UHJ
>
> Scroll............................Interpreter
>
> Sword...............................Protector
> _____________________________________________
I think this division is interesting. But my concern is that
developing such models doesn't necessarily lead to a better
understanding of application of his statements. In other words, how
do we know that a particular directive was based on his function as
the Interpreter (and presumably henceforth invariant) or was in
response to some aspect of his functioning as the Head of the Faith
and hence amendable to change by the House of Justice?
I also don't understand the difference between "Protector" with the
"Head of the Faith". Both the Guardian and the House are
"protectors" be the virtue of being the Head of the Faith. The Head
of the Faith makes a number of decision to protect the community and
these are neither legislations nor interpretations -- they are
security measures deemed appropriate to the situation.
For example, the Guardian ordered the remains of Mirza Burzurg Nuri
(Baha'u'llah's father) be removed to another location. In doing so,
he protected these remains for the future generations and allowed
that in due time a proper shrine be build for him. He ordered
similar directives for a number of other important figures of our
Faith, and it seems that he was simply exercising his office of
"Head of the Faith".
I guess, I'm of the mind that he had only two spheres of conferred
infallibility: authorized interpretation and serving as the Head of
the Faith.
best wishes, ahang.
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:52:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Michael:
I'm really very grateful to you for the thought and energy you're
putting into this exchange, and I want you to know that I am learning
from and benefitting from it. Once we get it past us, I would be most
grateful if we could have some postings from you on environmental issues
such as global warming and what role you see for international law and
global institutions in addressing it.
On Wed, 3 Jan 1996 curtotti@ozemail.com.au wrote:
> In my own words - there is no point trying to tell the administration and
> the bulk of the Community to be other that it is - it is bound to uphold
> what it believes to be the essential characteristics of the Baha'i
> administrative order - ways to resolve problems have to be found which are
> consistent with the Community's self-conception.
Obviously, if one begins with a conviction that no change can be
accomplished, then none can. I beg to differ. From my point of view
as a historian, the Baha'i religion has undergone numerous important
changes throughout its history; it is quite diverse; and it will change
again. Basically, I am arguing that we have entered a new stage of
Baha'i history, having Emerged from Obscurity. And in this new stage,
practices appropriate to the Formative Stage may have to be altered or
dropped. Moreover, in the Emergent stage we must get our bearings by
going back to the basic principles and emphases of Baha'u'llah Himself,
since it is the Revelation of the Manifestation of God that must sustain
us for the entire dispensation. This revelational groundedness is
especially important given the lapse of the Institution of the living
Mubayyin or Interpreter. Most Baha'is have responded to this situation
by clinging in a literalist fashion to the practices (many of them ad hoc
and temporary) of the last Interpreter. My own view is that this
approach has left us rigid and unable to seize the opportunities inherent
in the Emergent stage. We can only recover our flexibility and grow by
seeking our fundament, which is the Revelation.
> Certainly comparing Baha'u'llah to Thomas Jefferson does call to mind the
> American democracy as a general reference point for the views you have
> expressed.
Of course, the more apt comparisons are to Namik Kemal, the Young Ottoman
constitutionalist who worked for the First Constitutional Revolution of
1876-78 in the Ottoman Empire, which Baha'u'llah predicted and of which
he approved (being in close contact with the Young Ottomans through
correspondence and meetings with those imprisoned in Akka); or to
Muhammad `Abduh, the Muslim Egyptian reformer who played a key
journalistic role in the `Urabi Revolution of 1881-1882 in Egypt, which
sought to achieve parliamentary democracy in that country. (This hope
was thwarted by a British invasion that put the Khedive back on the
throne, an act that Baha'u'llah denounced roundly). But I doubt most on
this list have ever heard of Namik Kemal or Muhammad `Abduh, so I
instanced Thomas Jefferson, to whom all three have resemblances with
regard to their political ideas.
> Perhaps some questions
> might be appropriate however at this stage: Granting that Baha'u'llah and
> Abdu'l Baha do praise democracy - how important is it as a Baha'i value?
Since advocating parliamentary democracy in the Ottoman Empire was
forbidden in the Ottoman Empire during Baha'u'llah's ministry, 1863-1876
and roughly 1880-1892; as well as in `Abdu'l-Baha's ministry, 1892-1908;
and since it was prohibited on pain of death in Qajar Iran all the period
1863-1905; and since Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha both forthrightly
called for it on numerous occasions throughout this period, they thereby
put their own lives in danger, as well as those of the ordinary Baha'is.
Don't you think that this would have been irresponsible unless the
principle were of the utmost centrality and importance? And don't we
dishonor the sacrifices for democracy of not only Baha'u'llah and
`Abdu'l-Baha but also of Baha'is such as Abdullah Cevdet and
Shaykhu'r-Ra'is by putting so little value on this principle?
>It is not cited for instance as one of the Baha'i principles by Abdu'l Baha
> in his tour of America - does it appear in the Kitab-i-Ahd?
The principle of parliamentary democracy is central to the Tablet to the
Queen (1868-69); to the Tablet to Salman (1868); to the Aqdas (1873); to
Secret of Divine Civilization (1875); to the Lawh-i Istintaq (1880s); to
the Tablet of the World (1891). This principle, so key to
Revelational texts, cannot be downgraded or abrogated by later
texts, more especially by mere spoken talks.`Abdu'l-Baha did in fact stress
its importance in his talks in the US, as the quote I posted yesterday
demonstrates, but there is no reason to suppose he thought he should
preach to the converted.
> What is the role
> of democracy in the Aqdas?
Baha'u'llah addresses Iran, saying "sawfa yahkumu `alayki jumhurun min
an-nas"--there shall rule over you a democracy of the people.
> or in the Tablets revealed after it?
The Tablet of the World, 1891, was written at the height of the Tobacco
Revolt in Iran (1890-92). The Tobacco Revolt was provoked when the shah
granted to a British speculator a monopoly on the marketing of Iranian
tobacco. The Iranian public, especially tobacco growers and merchants,
were understandably alarmed, and launched a series of demonstrations that
racked the country. In the Tablet of the World, Baha'u'llah denounces
Qajar tyranny and the deprivation of the people of their rights; he
repeats his conviction that Iran needs a constitutional monarchy with a
rule of law on the British model; and he urges the shah to call a
parliament of notables to resolve the crisis. The Tablet of the World is
one of the supplements to the Aqdas.
> Also in
> what context does the democratic principle operate in the Baha'i writings -
> i.e. what other principles operate with it that might make it look quite
> different? To cite one example Baha'u'llah is clear that "The earth is but
> one country, and mankind its citizens"
Baha'u'llah appears to have envisaged a world in which each individual
country was a parliamentary democracy, and violence among them was
prevented or moderated by a regime of collective security. Parliamentary
democracies have launched far fewer wars of aggression than have other
systems, so Baha'u'llah's vision here seems on the mark.
> How does Baha'u'llah's condemnation of revolution and resort to violence
> sit with democracy?
Baha'u'llah was in many ways a classic liberal. He believed that
worthwhile goals could be achieved through discourse (bayan), which he
explicitly substituted for the Babi scimitar. I suppose in a way Canada
is a better example of the sorts of transitions he wanted to see than is
the U.S.
How does Baha'u'llah's explicit statements that
> authority rests with the kings sit with it?
>
As you surely know, Baha'u'llah abolished divine-right, absolute
monarchy, beginning around 1868, and thereafter praised only republics
and constitutional monarchies. This is a change from the 1867 Tablet to
the Kings. In later life he sometimes spoke of "kings" while clearly
meaning "constitutional monarchs".
> My comments on this issue were in part an impressionistic response to what
> seemed to be an unconscious remaking of the Baha'i Faith in our own image -
> it would indeed be more comfortable for American Baha'is were American
> democratic values wholly and without reservation endorsed by the Faith - I
> doubt that this is the case however - Shoghi Effendi is a trenchant critic
> of aspects of the functioning of American society.
On the other hand, being an American may allow me as a historian to
recover better the historical context of the rise of the Baha'i Faith in
the age of a revolt against Ottoman and Qajar absolutism. This is
something that appears to have entirely escaped most Iranian historians
of the Faith, who tended not to know much about its Ottoman context. As
for Shoghi Effendi: a) I'm not as sure as you that he was wholly hostile
to parliamentary democracy; b) he could not abrogate in any case
Baha'u'llah's Revelation; c) he was not empowered to legislate. Shoghi
Effendi's views must be contextualized in the 1930s, when the democracies
were enervated by the Depression and when fascism and communism seemed
poised to sweep them away. This was a very different context than
that faced by Baha'u'llah, who employed the Lockean tradition to critique
Sultan Abdulaziz's Absolutism at a time when Britain was the world's
greatest Power and the Ottomans were the sick man of Europe.
> How would you prevent the difficulties of freedom of the press arising in
> the Baha'i community which have arisen outside it?
I suppose I am a technological optimist on this issue. Cheap
communications technologies have a democratizing effect on information.
The old joke was that anyone can own a newspaper, all you need is a
million dollars. But in fact nowadays I could put out a news-sheet on
the internet, assuming I could find readers, for almost nothing; and it
could be *interactive*! I recommend Nicholas Negroponte's *Being
Digital* for exciting insights into the implications of a switch from
expensive paper-and-ink to writing on light. *Dialogue* magazine,
incidentally, was made possible by relatively inexpensive desk-top
publishing technology.
As things now stand in the US, the Baha'is have one newspaper, *The
American Baha'i*. It is the official organ of the NSA; it reports only
an NSA perspective; and it is full of commands and exhortations and
cheerleading. This strikes me as far more dangerous a situation than a
free press.
> > The
> >Guardian thought new blood vital to the functioning of the administration.
>
> Yes he did, thought occurred to me too. Other solutions can be envisaged
> to this problem (if significant problem it is) e.g. repeal of the current
> rule that Baha'is are not allowed to retire. Perhaps a case can be made
> that after ten years, Baha'is in large communities should be allowed to
> retire. Alternatively a maximum length in office might be instituted.
When term limits were proposed by *Dialogue* editors in 1989 this
precipitated an attack on them by NSA members who took the suggestion as
a personal insult.
> >
> >I would improve the system by introducing
> >
> >1) a free Baha'i press
> >
> >2) opinion polling
> >
> >3) nation-wide referenda of the California sort on propositions approved
> >by the NSA.
>
> Are these really politically viable solutions in the context of the Baha'i
> way?
Why do you think there is only one "Baha'i way?" The community did
things differently in the 19th century, and the early 20th, than it does
today. There used to be nominations for Baha'i office, e.g., and
`Abdu'l-Baha allowed that. What is politically viable changes. I'm for
thinking about our problems and seeing how they can be resolved, and
putting forth possible resolutions. Maybe they won't be acceptable for a
century. But they might ultimately be useful to the community.
I'll let others respond to your suggestions; but I must say none of them
addressed the problems I perceive.
> >Remember my concrete problems:
>
> Your post includes a list of decisions and actions by the institutions with
> which you take umbrage. Implicitly we are invited to conclude that
> innocent members of the Community have been unfairly treated by
> administrative institutions. Not being privy to the full facts of these
> cases it would be difficult for me to comment. In some at least of the
> cases we can be fairly confident the nine elected minds and not the
> unelected individual(s) got it right. Also there may well have been more
> than one right answer to the issues addressed - the point is that in the
> Baha'i system its up to the elected institution to decide which path is to
> be taken. That I regard as an extremely valuable protection - probably in
> the end more effective than press freedom - i.e. it is a system that
> prevents any single individual arrogating power to him or herself.
I keep getting this response from Baha'is, so I take it that it is part
of current Baha'i political culture. The response is:
1) We cannot know
the full details of any allegedly oppressive action by a Baha'i
institution toward an individual or set of individuals and are therefore
unable to make a judgment as to its rightness or wrongness.
[This is the lowest of Kohlberg's ethical stages, in which one
relinquishes one's moral sense to some outside agency. Such a permanent
suspension of judgment is at the core of what I fear as the authoritarian
tendencies of Baha'i administration. The irony is that we do not know
full details because the Baha'i institutions act to prevent a free press
from operating, and this then becomes the basis on which their actions
are above reproach, since no one has enough information to form a
critical judgment.]
2) The individuals repressed by the Baha'i institution must also be at
fault, either wholly or in part.
[Why? Law recognizes unjust actions in which one party is an innocent
victim and the other a wrongful aggressor. Why is the latter role for
any Baha'i institution immediately ruled impossible, and individuals that
tangle with it ruled guilty until--or even if--proven innocent?]
3) Individuals involved in such a conflict are nursing grievances if
they complain, and are biased. Individuals not directly involved who
complain are intervening in a matter that is none of their business and
about which they can only have partial information. This is the denial
of the public sphere we have seen again and again. Of course, by these
lights, Abdu'l-Baha had no standing to criticize Qajar oppressions in
Secret of Divine Civilization.
4)You wrote:
> the point is that in the
> Baha'i system its up to the elected institution to decide which path is to
> be taken. That I regard as an extremely valuable protection - probably in
> the end more effective than press freedom - i.e. it is a system that
> prevents any single individual arrogating power to him or herself.
What if the *elected institution* acts dictatorially? What if it has
*corporate* interests that it pursues to the detriment of the rights of
individuals? There are lots of aggregates of nine persons to whom I
would not trust my own rights without any guarantees of the rule of law,
without a free press or an independent judiciary! I am amazed that you
cannot see that this is a recipe for abuse [I refrained from using the
words you don't like].
As I've said before, in seeing what's wrong with the current system, it
helps enormously to be a writer. Writers are the ones, like miners'
canaries, who run first smack dab into the problems.
> Cheers, a rather
tired Michael, 12.40 am Canberra > > PS. Last long post, honest!
>
warmest regards - Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:15:07 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Donna Katich latest news .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
Donna continues to progress although slowly it is hoped this week she
will be released from critical care . But that will depend on the
swelling of the brain . They have removed the stitches and Donna is
speaking but not as before her operation .
More Prayers please .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:33:56 PST8PDT
Subject: Re (2): Fascism and inflammatory language
Greetings Blessed Ones,
There are a lot of scary political neofascists in Spain and Italy
RIGHT NOW, and the super-ultra-conservative/neofascist movements
are becoming more and more popular, partly due to scandals and
economic mismanagement by the socialist party, which has been in
charge of national government since the early 1980s. I'm tempted
to make an over generalized statement about parallels with the
Limbaugh/Gingrich mentality.
Remember that in Spain, Catalan (and other pro-democracy) dissidents
were EXECUTED as late as the early 1970s for such minor acts as
publicly advocating the use of the Catalan language in schools and
other public venues (Franco had banned the use of Catalan language
in the wake of the Spanish Civil War, but most Catalan people
stoically ignored the ban, and continued using Catalan at home and
in places of business when possible). Similar events probably in
the "pais" Basque.
To attempt to dismiss any possible use of the term "fascism" by
relegating it to only the most extreme forms of Nazism and genocide
seems off target.
Besides the observation that fascism isn't necessarily a complete
historical anachronism, I agree that it is more useful to describe
the social/psychological elements of fascism in a general sense, and
look for the existence of specific behavioral dynamics and patterns
in the Baha'i community that might be considered to mirror or
parallel fascist behaviour.
I have several personal examples, but hey, it's happy new year time,
and we are supposed to try to get along with each other for at least
a week or so before starting any interminable wrangling, right?
Bon Any (Feliz Ano/Happy New Year),
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
ps, thanks to Robert J, Ahang, and others for the holiday replies to
my posts, I was away, and am, currently scanning the #300 or so back-
log of messages at home as text file extracts. Will most likely
eventually reply in private since most nasty pre-holiday topics have
thankfully gone off the talisman radar screen for the time being.
pps, I still need the talisman posts from last Thursday afternoon to
Friday afternoon, since I was accidentally ubsubscribed due to the
"faust" business. CAN ANYONE FORWARD THEM PLEASE!!!
> From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
> To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
> Subject: Fascism and inflammatory language
> Date sent: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 09:56:31 -0800
> I agree that the word fascism was inflammatory and, imho, ill-chosen.
> However, many people today use that term simply to refer to an extremely
> centralized organization or government. It also refers to control and a lack
> of choice at lower levels. Brutality isn't necessarily implied by that
> usage. However, in political circles, the lunatic-fringe right in the US
> calls the current administration fascist. That is bizarre but they do it
> nonetheless. Other groups of people use the term statist for the classical
> fascist regimes. As you say, the term has no useful meaning any more and can
> only confuse and polarize the Baha'i community. It's best to strive for a
> more moderate and respectful tone even if the purpose is hyperbole or
> sarcasm. As we've seen, unfortunate usage in past criticism such as
> "spin-doctor" will only hurt feelings and will not lead to constructive
> dialog.
>
> Warmest,
>
> Hannah
>
> {}------------------------------------------------------------------{}
> "I'm just a soul whose intentions are good,
> Oh Lord! Please don't let me be misunderstood!"
> (--The Animals, 196?)
>
> ----------
> From: Geocitizen@aol.com[SMTP:Geocitizen@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, 01 January, 1996 1:05 AM
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Fascists under the bed?
>
>
> Speaking of extremes of rhetoric and belief, I found it curious that someone
> recently said, regarding a conception of Baha'i administration disallowing
> public criticism of Assembly decisions, that it leaves "fascism" as "the
> only
> possibility" for a Baha'i government.
>
> I find this curious because under fascism in the Hitlerian sense, as well as
> under the various other forms of totalitarianism, outspoken dissidents are
> killed or sent away to die of malnutrition or exposure in remote labor
> camps.
>
> << --H.R.>>
>
>
>
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Miners' Canaries
To: jrcole@umich.edu (Juan R Cole)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 14:52:58 EST
Cc: curtotti@ozemail.com.au, talisman@indiana.edu
Until now, I thought January 1995 was the most brilliant month of
Talisman. Thanks to one of the *miners' canaries*--Juan Cole--January 1996
promises to be equally as exciting.
I look forward to more of this fresh line of inquiry from the noetic
realm of *wisdom academics*.
Juan: Will your commentary on freedom and conscience in *A Traveller's
Narrative* appear in your forthcoming book, *Modernity and the Millennium*?
What of your studies on democracy, constitutional monarchy and Baha'i
scriptures?
*Fan Mail from Some Flounder*
-- Bulwinkle
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:09:08 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: My new e-mail address
Dear friends-
My old UNM address expires in a week or so. The new e-mail
account is sadra@rt66.com. Please make note of it. Thanx.
Regards,
Nima
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 12:31 PST
To: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Mensa without the N DC at night and day part 2.
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Really, this story of Linda's adventures in D.C. is pretty much verified by
not only the treasured personal memoirs of a certain shakey Sheik and
hastily scrawled notes taken by housekeeping lest they be called to testify
by the hotel detective, but by Allen Funt's Candid Camera crew who had
staked out the hotel as the perfect place to film "Is That a Shi'ite in Your
Elevator or are you just happy to see me?"
The only correction I can offer to Derek's version of events relates to the
following sentence:
"Jimmy and his flying toupee"
From what I understand, it was not a flying toupee, but a squirrel added as
an emotion laden prop as Jimmy warbled "I'm just nuts about linda" to the
tune of "Im just wild about Harry." She was, of course, not impressed, and
snuck off into the hotel's kitchen to gobble down a bowl of Lucky Charms --
aka "Edible Talismans."
I think much of this behaviour should be replicated in our local communties.
From what I have read, Omaha is leading the way.
Chris has offered to bring this up for a vote at next feast in Canada where
they have recently decided not to eat Denver Omelets because they are too
American..this was decided without a vote as voting is also American, as are
the colors red, white, and blue, hot dogs, apple pie and motherhood, which
has now fallen into disfavor as well. A statue of Lorn Green, however, has
recieved LSA funding as have plans for the NEW Ottowa Baha'i Centre which
will be constructed to resemble a piece of FRENCH TOAST with MAPLE syrup
dripping in nine spiritually significant rivulets
Burl
Now, can we get back to SDC?
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: 02 Jan 96 15:19:36 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Love is Hate, et.al.
Dear Talismanians,
Two short observations about the past few days' posts:
1. The phrase "Constructive criticism is destructive" sounds
exactly like it came from Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World," which coined
such gems as "War is Peace." Certainly this opinion, which doesn't even
attempt to transparently mask the intent to muzzle all diverse viewpoints,
cannot be reconciled with the Universal House of Justice's stated point
of view that constructive criticism has an important place in every
community's deliberations.
2. Who is this virgin "Margarita," and what were you doing with
her at 3:00 am?
Love to all in the new Gregorian year,
David
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:38:48 -0800
To: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: *hasten* answer
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
> Jim: Can't anyone with REFER find the word *hasten*? Yes, the
>Guardian does say that the Baha'is may *hasten* the Lesser Peace. Have you
>given up trying to locate that quote.
>
> -- Christopher Buck
Dear Chris,
This is all I could find in REFER: The first may be what you are looking for
since the second refers to a cataclysm as the catalyst for action.
"Having returned to the Holy Land with a renewed vigour and a refreshed
spirit, I shall not fail with the help of the Master to do my part in
enabling you to carry on further and still further the Glorious Standard of
Baha to the very heart and uttermost confines of Germany and thus hasten the
Day when the Spirit of Faith and Peace as revealed in the Cause of
Baha'u'llah will fill the world and the darkness of strife be no more."
(Light of Divine Guidance Vol.1, page 8)
". . . becoming increasingly manifest; hope, in the serene assurance that
whatever cataclysm may yet visit humanity, it cannot but hasten the
approaching era of universal and lasting peace so emphatically proclaimed by
the Pen of Baha'u'llah."
(Baha'i Administration, page 145)
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:38:30 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: RE: religious "isms"
>>On Mon, 1 Jan 1996 15:25:48 EST QUANTA DAWNLIGHT wrote:
>>
>>Do the Prophets wish to be worshipped?
>>Thank you.
>>
>>Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
>>
On Mon, 1 Jan 96 16:47:08 PST Philip Belove wrote:
> Dear Quanta,
>
>Great questions. You want our opinions, not writings.
>
>Do the Prophets wish to be worshipped.?
>
>I think the Prophets seems to speak from several different stations.
>In some stations they are totally selfless and what we get is a Voice
>speaking thru them that wishes to be worshiped.
>In the prophets, there is something about their Ego that is in total
>submission to something else. Their Ego does not wish to be
>worshipped but rather wishes us to join it in its worship of that
>Other.
>
>Thank you for this opportunity.
>
>Philip
>-------------------------------------
>Name: Philip Belove
>E-mail: belove@sover.net
>Date: 01/01/96
>Time: 16:47:09
>-------------------------------------
>Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
>Einstein
Dear Quanta, Philip, and everyone else,
Being the new kid on the block (joined Decembler 28) I would like to
compliment all of you on the fine level of discussion and deportment you
display.
Concerning Quanta's question above let me state that I worship *both* God
and Baha'u'llah.
I worship God because He (I got in trouble Sunday with a female
seeker/Goddess worshiper who remonstrated me for saying God was genderless
and then proceding to use male pronouns to refer to *Him*) is the source of
all that I am and all that is. And I believe that as in the Noon Day Prayer
". . . Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee."
I worship Baha'u'llah because it is through Him and Him alone that I can
even have a glimmering of what God is and His attributes. As Philip says
the Manifestations have fulfill multiple stations. Undoubtably that station
of Their being that is the Divine Unity with God should be worshiped.
"As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He
hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols
of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified
Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. Whoso
recognizeth them hath recognized God."
("Gleanings", pages 49-50) [Sorry about the quote Quanta but sometimes I
need the assistance of the Writings to properly phrase something.]
On the subject of Baha'u'llah's ego, I saw what Philip means when I read
"Tablets of Baha'u'llah" and "Prayers and Meditations" straight through
instead of looking up various subjects. It was as if I had picked up His
diary and reading His most personal thoughts and desires. It was obvious,
to me, the desire He had for us, everyone, to recognize and worship God and
the pain He felt at our inability to understand and follow the true reality,
the spiritual reality of ourselves.
Thank you for the opportunity to exercise my mind. I look forward to many
happy hours reading and meditating on the thinks I will read in Talisman.
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
"Eric D. Pierce"
Subject: RE: Re (2): Fascism and inflammatory language
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:03:29 -0800
The political update is very nice and all that but not to the point. Using a
word such as fascist in a Baha'i context is not a good idea. Don't you
agree? Does anyone really want to refer to current Baha'i administrative
practice as fascist? Does that achieve anything constructive (ignoring how
tainted the terminology is, by the way)?
Hannah
----------
From: Eric D. Pierce[SMTP:PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, 02 January, 1996 3:33 AM
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re (2): Fascism and inflammatory language
Greetings Blessed Ones,
There are a lot of scary political neofascists in Spain and Italy
RIGHT NOW, and the super-ultra-conservative/neofascist movements
are becoming more and more popular, partly due to scandals and
economic mismanagement by the socialist party, which has been in
charge of national government since the early 1980s. I'm tempted
to make an over generalized statement about parallels with the
Limbaugh/Gingrich mentality.
>
>
> Speaking of extremes of rhetoric and belief, I found it curious that
someone
> recently said, regarding a conception of Baha'i administration disallowing
> public criticism of Assembly decisions, that it leaves "fascism" as "the
> only
> possibility" for a Baha'i government.
>
> I find this curious because under fascism in the Hitlerian sense, as well
as
> under the various other forms of totalitarianism, outspoken dissidents are
> killed or sent away to die of malnutrition or exposure in remote labor
> camps.
>
> << --H.R.>>
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:32:17 EST
From: Leonard Swidler
Subject: Kyosei Principles
To: Multiple recipients of list G-ETHIC
_KYOSEI_:THE GUIDE FOR A NEW WORLD ORDER IN BUSINESS
Ryuzaburo Kaku, Chairman, Canon Inc.
In 1988, a year after celebrating Canon's 50th anniversary,
we announced the beginning of a new phase in the company's
evolution. At this time we sought an appropriate corporate
philosophy that would guide the company's future development and
express its vision. After much discussion we expressed this
philosophy as "the achievement of corporate growth and
development, with the aim of contributing to global prosperity
and the well-being of humankind." This is the idea behind
_kyosei_.
_KYOSEI_
What exactly is _kyosei_? At Canon we use a concise
definition -- living and working together for the common good: A
more detailed version is "all people, regardless of race,
religion or culture, harmoniously living and working together for
many years to come. "
It is my belief that the concept of _kyosei_ should occupy a
central position in the personal ethics of each individual. I
also believe it should be a creed that all corporations and
nations follow, and that it should be the guiding principle for
the new world order that is currently emerging.
Around the time when Canon announced its philosophy, the
concept of _kyosei_ was being discussed in business, economic and
academic circles in Japan. At present, the discussion has caused
much confusion, due to a lack of true understanding of the
concept of _kyosei_. It has also been misinterpreted and
criticized as being a justification for the formation of cartels.
For this reason I would like to clarify the ideas behind
_kyosei_ and explain my own thoughts about this philosophy.
Ryuzaburo Kaku
********************
THE EVOLUTION OF SOCIALLY RESPONSIBLE AND ETHICAL COMPANIES
During my many years in corporate management, there is one
question that has always puzzled me. Despite the fact that humans
operate companies and do their best to provide society with
useful products and services, why are corporations criticized by
the public and frequently blamed for causing social problems?
After thinking about the characteristics of the ideal
organization, I realized that many companies that exist today can
be classified into four types. Each type reflects a different
stage in the growth and development of companies and the
evolution of socially responsible business. At each progressive
stage a company becomes more socially responsible and draws less
criticism.
This development process, of course, does not apply to
criminal organizations that perform illegal acts to gain profits.
It only applies to those companies engaging in legitimate
activities.
FOUR STAGES
I will refer to the _first_ type of company as the "_purely
capitalistic corporation_." As I see it, these companies are at
the initial stage of corporate evolution. This type of business
stimulates the economy, however management and owners share the
benefits of operation and care very little for employees. The
exploitation of workers leads inevitably to labor-management
conflicts and the problems described by Karl Marx.
The _second_ type I call the "_company that shares a
prosperous future_." This type of corporation addresses the
shortcomings of the first type of organization. In this kind of
company, manages aid workers area united in working for the
prosperity of the corporation and both have a share in the
profits. This solves labor disputes, but this type of company is
still criticized by the public because it does little to solve
problems in the local community and is often not concerned with
environmental protection. For example, it is sometimes negligent
in managing waste and noise, because its managers and workers are
simply pursuing greater personal wealth.
At this point, the _third_ type of corporation emerges. I
refer to this kind as the "_company assuming local social
responsibilities_." In this classification companies respect the
interests of their own, stakeholders -- customers, staff,
shareholders, suppliers, competitors and the local community.
They also spare no effort to further the advancement of
their own country. But while they accept social responsibilities,
these are limited to those within their own national borders and
local area.
While this type of company draws little criticism within its
domestic sphere, it is often censured by other countries because
it cares for only local and national interests and is not
concerned about global problems, such as the deterioration of the
environment, global trade imbalance! and imbalances in
development.
I have defined the _fourth_ type as the "_corporation
assuming global social responsibilities_." It may also be
described as a "truly global corporation." This type of company
cares for all its direct stakeholders including its local
community and beyond. While this type of corporation experiences
no labor disputes and exists harmoniously with the local
community, it strives to fulfill its corporate obligations on a
global scale. Its social responsibilities transcend national
boundaries. Canon's concept of _kyosei_ applied to its
relationship to all people symbolizes the company's commitment to
the aim of becoming this fourth type of company -- truly global
corporation.
ADDRESSING IMBALANCES -- THE ROLE OF THE TRULY GLOBAL CORPORATION
What role should the truly global corporation fulfill?
I believe the major problems that this earth is currently
experiencing can be categorized into three forms of imbalance.
These are: _imbalances in trade between developed nations;
imbalances in development between industrialized and developing
nations; and the contrast between the quality of the environment
one generation inherits and that left to the generation that
follows_. I believe that truly global corporations should play a
role in addressing these imbalances.
At the moment there are significant trade imbalances between
advanced countries that are adversely affecting the international
balance of payments. The second imbalance involves the gap
between the poor and the wealthy nations. I believe a truly
global corporation has the obligation to contribute to the
resolution of trade friction, and should also build production
facilities in developing countries and transfer technology to
support the development of nations undergoing industrialization.
In fact, I believe that the best way to globalize a
corporation is to localize it in communities around the world. I
think a foreign-based corporation should re-invest profits into
the country where it conducts business in order to contribute to
local employment as well as to the trade balance and
technological progress of that country.
The third and most important type of imbalance is the
contrast in the quality of the environment that one generation
inherits and that which it leaves to the next generation. This
imbalance between present and future encompasses the entire range
of environmental issues including the problems of human
population and energy resources.
In 1989, Canon declared the beginning of its ecology era and
strengthened its commitment to decreasing CFC and carbon
emissions. In 1990, the company launched a worldwide campaign to
collect and recycle toner cartridges used in personal copying
machines and laser beam printers. These activities represented
the first step of our involvement in environmental protection.
Global corporations that conduct activities across national
borders are creating wealth and stimulating economies around the
world. As the sole creators of wealth, businesses should
transcend the boundaries of national borders or industrial types
to resolve these three types of enormous imbalances.
THE ROLE OF BUSINESS IN ADDRESSING IMBALANCES
Up till now, addressing these imbalances has been seen as
the responsibility of government. However, I believe that
business must play a role. I think business is obliged to become
involved in finding solutions to social problems and that
corporations have the talent, skill and resources to do so.
Today's business and information flows have entered a
"borderless era." Because an increasing number of businesses
transcend national borders, corporations will find it more
difficult to do business unless the world enjoys peace and
stability. In other words, for a corporation that operates
globally, working to promote worldwide stability and prosperity
corresponds to greater profits.
Business can assist government and bureaucracy. I think that
these institutions are sometimes overly concerned with being
re-elected and securing funds and sometimes lose sight of the
need to find solutions to problems.
Often governments' concerns focus on domestic rather than
international matters. Global businesses, however, take a world
view and should demonstrate leadership through their concern for
global issues.
I am aware that my ideas have drawn criticism for being "too
idealistic" or "impractical" and "not in the interest of the
survival of business." However, I believe that business'
involvement in social issues is both a moral and a practical
obligation.
_KYOSEI_ RELATIONSHIPS -- THE TWO SIDES OF A BALANCE SHEET
My ideas on the four types of corporations explain how I see
_kyosei_ from different perspectives. The corporation can have a
_kyosei_ relationship with employees, with the community, and
with the world.
However, these are only my ideas in relation to _kyosei_ and
the _distribution_ of wealth -- the debit side of a balance
sheet. Emphasis on _kyosei_ and distribution alone will surely
create misunderstanding. To support this ideal, a corporation
must naturally _create wealth_ and fulfill its _production role_
(the credit side of a balance sheet). This balance sheet, which
explains my ideas about the role of business, follows.
ROLE OF BUSINESS
Distribution (_kyosei_) Creation
Business as a Builder Business as a Creator of Wealth
of a Better Society
___________________________ ___________________________________
1st Category of Company 1. Innovator
Purely capitalistic Intrinsic role of business
companies
-----------------------------------------------------------------
2nd Category 2. Independence
Companies sharing Overcoming collusion with Govern-
the future ment and bureaucracy
-----------------------------------------------------------------
3rd Category 3. Fairness
Companies acting in stake Overcoming unfair practices,
holders interests and excessive or inadequate
assuming local social competition
responsibilities
-----------------------------------------------------------------
4th Category _Kyosei_ between corporations
Companies assuming global Competition and cooperation with
social responsibilities rival companies
Creation
-----------------------------------------------------------------
To balance wealth creation and distribution, Canon not only
advocates "_kyosei_ with the world" but it has also launched its
"premier corporation" concept, which links _kyosei_ with Canon's
main strategies to create wealth -- research and development,
diversification, and globalization of the organization.
To fulfill its role to create wealth, I believe that
companies must be innovative, independent from government, and
engage in fair competition.
INNOVATION -- THE KEY TO WEALTH CREATION
To create wealth, companies must be innovative. Innovation
refers to the creation of new technologies and products. However,
it goes further than this. A corporation must also be innovative
regarding its production technologies; marketing, merchandising
and sales; as well as in its management and organization.
These types of innovation conform to the ideas expressed by
the economist J. A. Schumpeter at the beginning of this century.
One often hears corporations being criticized because they
place efficiency above all else -- but I think such critics are
mistaken. Companies must focus all efforts on achieving the
previously mentioned types of innovation in order to create
wealth as efficiently as possible.
I believe that a corporation that aims to be innovative
should act independently avoiding alliances with political
parties and government.
Up till now, Japanese corporations have been deficient in
this respect and have been criticized accordingly. This
deficiency can be partially attributed to the fact that, since
the Meiji era (late 1800s), the Japanese government has placed
priority on the economic development of the country. Corporate
growth has served as the means that Japan has "caught up" with
the industrial standards in Western countries.
There is no doubt that competition is extremely important
for promoting and motivating innovation. However, it must always
be fair and legal competition. A corporation that competes by
being innovative, highly efficient, or by offering original
technologies, products or services is engaging in fair
competition. However, companies can also achieve a competitive
advantage through malicious and illegal means.
_KYOSEI_ AND FAIR COMPETITION
While competition is vital to drive innovation, in my
opinion, either too little or too much competition between
legitimate businesses can have negative social consequences. I
call these two extremes "under competition" and "over
competition."
I refer to "over competition" as the imitation of a product
immediately after it is discovered or invented by another party.
This shows a lack of respect for another company's intellectual
property and a lack of ability to innovate. A company's social
contribution, as well as its competitive advantage, will increase
if it develops original products and services, or improves
significantly on those already on offer.
What I mean by "under competition" is business engaging in
activities such as bid-rigging and cartels. The elimination of
unfair competition requires rigorous examination by corporations.
The government must promote the transition to a system in which
the general rules of fair competition will be strictly observed.
A final question that arises is, assuming that a corporation
is engaging in fair competition, how does a corporation achieve
_kyosei_ with its competitors.
Even if a competitor falls into difficulties, I do not
approve of taking a "survival of the fittest" approach to destroy
another party until it is liquidated. Competition involves being
innovative during the process of creating original products or
services; it is not a kill-or-be-killed struggle in which one is
either the predator or the prey.
A corporation that is seriously committed to innovation, and
holds the potential to develop its own original technologies,
products, and services, should be capable of addressing a segment
of the complex and diverse needs of society. Liquidating such a
corporation will not benefit the society as a whole.
The survival of the fittest is said to be the prevailing
rule of the natural world. However, a close observation of
animals in their natural habitat reveals more subtle
relationships between species. When lions attack zebras, they
never kill more zebras than they need to eat for survival. Wisdom
thus operates to protect the zebra species. In my view it is a
mistake to believe that competition means a fight until the other
party is destroyed and all competition eliminated.
Of course, the weeding out of dishonest corporations, which
act illegally to make money, will be beneficial to society.
_kyosei_ does not contradict the concept of true and fair
competition. It also differs completely from the view that every
corporation deserves protection from ruin. It promotes respect
among innovative rivals who compete fairly.
COOPERATION TO ADVANCE INNOVATION
Innovative corporations with specialties in different areas
can also work together in the spirit of _kyosei_ to produce
outstanding products. In this way a synergy is created and
products can be produced that either company alone could not
develop.
An example of such a _kyosei_ relationship is Canon's
partnership with Eastman-Kodak, which has resulted in the launch
of a digital camera that is among the world's best. Digital
cameras are used to input images into computers or to send images
down a telephone line. The new digital cameras are the result of
the best of Canon's lens and camera technology with the expertise
Kodak has in the field of digital-image storage.
In this way, if every company does its best to be innovative
and develops specialist skills they can often team up with other
companies with different strengths to create further innovations
and provide the world with better products and services. Canon
has such cooperative _kyosei_ relationships with Texas
Instruments, Hewlett-Packard, Eastman-Kodak, Olivetti and Apple.
Naturally, cooperation between companies must observe
anti-monopoly regulations and must involve respect between the
parties and mutual benefits.
To create new technologies and innovative new products, we
are also forming close cooperative relationships with American
venture-capital businesses that possess excellent technologies.
We are currently working with companies that are developing an
electronic-beam exposure device, producing solar cells, and
advancing computer technologies. These are yet another example of
companies working together in a _kyosei_ relationship.
When forming a venture-capital business, a joint-venture or
when making a capital investment in another company, Canon
observes specific rules. It provides what the other party is
lacking, such as capital or production technology; and bases
production and worldwide marketing of a new technology or product
in the country where it was invented.
According to my concept of _kyosei_, a corporation should
make every effort to create wealth by fair means and, in terms of
the distribution of profits, it should play a very active role as
a company that assumes global social responsibilities. The view
that _kyosei_ limits competition is way off the mark. Although it
is crucial to eliminate unfair competition, _kyosei_ can be seen
as being a prerequisite to fair competition between independent
corporations.
THE FIFTH TYPE OF CORPORATION
I have recently come to believe that a fifth category is
needed in my analysis of companies as they evolve into ethical
social institutions. This fifth type I see as a company that
seeks to change the world for the better. Companies in the fifth
stage also try to increase the number of like-minded partners
that assume global social responsibilities and that are actively
concerned with global problems.
Companies in the fifth stage realize it is not right for the
enormous number of corporations existing in the world to remain
apathetic about the various perplexing problems emerging on our
planet. They know it is it not enough for a corporation to
transform itself only into a fourth type of corporation and
simply strive to correct imbalances -- it knows it must go
further.
_KYOSEI_ APPLIED AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL
The _kyosei_ concept must also be put to practical use at
the national level by like-minded corporations. I am aware of the
tremendous advantages and disadvantages that national government
policies exert on corporations and society. I have also
experienced the limits of what a single corporation can achieve
with respect to economic friction, exchange rate fluctuations,
and other problems.
Since I am Japanese, I decided to apply my ideas about
_kyosei_ to Japan and I have developed a vision for the country
as a truly ethical nation. Central to my ideas is that Japan
should abandon its former "one-nation prosperity" creed of
striving for advancements for Japan alone and adopt the concept
of _kyosei_ so that Japan can exist in harmony with the rest of
the world. In addition, I believe Japan should cooperate with the
US and EU to contribute toward the resolution of serious world
problems.
Since the Meiji Restoration in 1868, Japan has made every
effort to "overtake and pass" the West. This has been a
government priority and is evident in its promotion of
industrialization and aim for higher productivity. It was also
seen in the country's policy of developing a wealthy nation and a
strong military. However, the government's misguided
overemphasis on building up the strength of the military brought
about the tragedy of World War II.
At the time of the Meiji Restoration, the government's focus
on industrialization and productivity was appropriate because
Japan was poor and lagged very far behind Western industrialized
countries. The promotion of industry continued into the post-war
era and has enabled Japan to transform itself into an affluent,
industrialized nation.
I believe that 1968, exactly 100 years after the Meiji
Restoration, was a symbolic year in which Japan achieved its goal
of catching up with the West in industrialization. In that year,
Japan's gross national product ranked second in the world and the
balance of international payments turned in Japan's favor.
I believe it is now time for newly affluent Japan to change
its focus from concern with national prosperity to Japan's role
in the world. It is time to give more attention to international
problems rather than national development.
For many years now I have said that Japan, as a developed
nation, has outgrown its one-nation prosperity policy. Some years
ago I also warned that Japan would be criticized if it continued
to follow this policy and allowed its trade surplus to grow,
without assuming a more active role in addressing world problems.
I thought that the affluence Japan had achieved would ironically
lead to its downfall and a "national crisis" if it did not change
its ways and exist harmoniously with other nations.
Unfortunately, what I predicted came true.
The enormous international trade surplus itself triggered a
"bubble economy" marked by unprecedented financial speculation.
This caused immense strain throughout the Japanese economy and
its after-effects continue to be felt by the nation's largest
financial institutions today.
The rising yen is also a consequence of having neglected the
accumulating trade surplus. Small to medium-sized corporations in
Japan will soon run out of measures for coping with the rising
yen. Although large corporations may be able to adapt by
transferring some production to overseas bases, this may
seriously undermine employment stability in the country. In the
end, it is Japan that will suffer.
NATIONAL CRISIS
I think that the "national crisis" is not only economic in
nature, but also social. For example, recently many young
Japanese people, including some with excellent academic results,
have been attracted to questionable cults. How could seemingly
dangerous groups gather so many followers? I think that one of
the main reasons is that the national government has not
provided a guiding vision of how Japan should ideally be. A
society that lacks a positive ideology leaves room for false and
destructive beliefs to take hold.
I think that Japan's politicians have invested too much
energy in petty internal battles and have been negligent in
developing a new aim for the country. A vision has not been
created to replace the goal of rapid industrialization to catch
up with the West.
However, it is not too late for Japan to change. I believe
it must immediately abandon its national objective of achieving
prosperity for Japan alone and must adopt a national creed of
contributing to _kyosei_ with humankind."
Recently, the phrase "A Japan that will contribute to the
world" is being widely used by politicians as a campaign slogan.
To actually contribute to the world, however, strategies to
achieve that objective must be devised.
A CALL FOR REFORM IN JAPAN
In my opinion, Japan needs four fundamental reforms -- a
reduction in government regulation; priority given to consumers'
needs; a devolution of power to local authorities; and a drastic
change in the education system to emphasize creativity.
First of all, Japan's government-led corporate development
system is not appropriate for a developed nation. This system
must be transformed and government regulations and intervention
reduced.
Second, the "industry and manufacturers come first"
doctrine, which suited the goal of industrialization and catching
up with the West, should be changed into a "citizens and
consumers come first" doctrine.
Third, though the centralized power systems of government
and administration were effective while Japan was a developing
country, they should now be transformed into decentralized
systems and more power transferred to local governments.
Finally, education in Japan needs drastic reform. When Japan
was undergoing industrial development, a content-based education
system was effective for assimilating information from advanced
countries. From now on, however, it is necessary to switch to an
education system that places more emphasis on creativity,
appreciation of nature and cultures, dignity, and morality. I
discussed my ideas in relation to this in more detail in my book
entitled "Plan for Building a New Country Toward an Ethical
Nation," published in 1992 by Tokyo Keizai Inc.
If Japan successfully implements these reforms, I think it
can establish a true partnership with the US and the EU and
become a country that displays global leadership throughout the
21st century.
Even if Japan joins other world nations in addressing global
problems, the subject of cultural differences will remain. If
common objectives are shared while respecting cultural
differences, however, it should be possible to combine efforts to
live and work together for the common good. We must recognize the
fact that we have no time to waste in resolving the major
problems that the world currently faces, which are over-
population, depletion of resources and deterioration in the
quality of the environment.
_KYOSEI_ -- THE GUIDE FOR A NEW WORLD ORDER
I have described _kyosei_ as a corporate creed and as a
philosophy for a new Japan. However, I believe that _kyosei_ also
encompasses a much wider scope, that is, it is also appropriate
as a guiding principle for forming a new world order.
Not long after the end of both the Cold War and the
ideological conflict between capitalism and communism, there has
been an outbreak of disputes between ethnic groups and religions
as well as clashes between nationalistic groups. The entire world
is now concerned about the problem of how to form a new world
order.
There are many very sound principles guiding the world
today. For example, the ideals expressed in such documents as the
American Declaration of Independence and the French Revolution's
Declaration of Human Rights clearly express the need for human
rights, equality, liberty, democracy and peace, each of which is
truly wonderful. However, I think that these ideals alone will be
insufficient for resolving the problems emerging on this planet.
To create the new world order that encompasses all people on
earth, I think that a comprehensive yet fundamental guiding
principle is needed. In my opinion, the philosophy of _kyosei_
fits this description.
It is difficult to find universal concepts that all people,
despite their cultural backgrounds, can relate to. Often what are
considered universal principles are interpreted differently in
different cultures.
For example, the concept of justice, which seems to be a
universal principle, is interpreted in different ways by various
cultures. Muslims hold up what is known as Islamic justice;
whereas other concepts of justice exist in the world, none of
which have been globally accepted.
Another example is the principle of human rights. In the
United States there has been talk of tying the human rights issue
with the Most-Favored Nation status for China. But China's
Council Premier Li Peng has said to Americans: "Your concept of
human rights is different to ours. What we mean by human rights
is to feed, clothe, house and give jobs to 1.2 billion people."
The Chinese perception of human rights, as well as democracy, is
not quite the same as the concept talked about in America.
Because of the problem of the various interpretations
associated with existing guiding principles, what is needed is a
new concept and philosophy that can draw all people on the earth
together and guide them to live and work for the common good. In
my opinion _kyosei_ is such a suitable new concept.
THE ULTIMATE GOAL
My vision of _kyosei_ can be seen as an ultimate goal and
there are many steps that must be taken to achieve this. For
example, I believe that the attainment of peace throughout the
world, something which, sadly, has been extremely rare, is
essential to achieve the ultimate goal of _kyosei_ -- a state in
which all people live and work together happily for many years to
come, regardless of race, religion, or culture.
In order to live and work together for the common good it is
also of vital importance that we respect human rights, freedom
and democracy. These values are central to the concept of the
common good.
The relationship between the common good and _kyosei_ can be
thought of using the mathematical terms necessary and sufficient
conditions. For example, peace and democracy are necessary
conditions of "living and working together," but these two alone
are insufficient. The attainment of _kyosei_ also involves other
necessary factors, such as concern for the global environment and
imbalances in development, that must be combined before they
become sufficient conditions to achieve the goal.
Because many values such as peace, freedom, human rights,
and care for the environment are essential to achieve the
ultimate goal of _kyosei_, I believe it is a suitable overarching
guiding principle for building a new world order for the 21st
century and beyond. I sincerely hope that the people of the world
will come to understand _kyosei_.
_kyosei_ in action
History provides many examples of great individuals and
organizations who have practiced _kyosei_
One example, which is not widely known, is Dr. Frank
Buchman, an American who advocated moral re-armament (MRA) in
1938. At the time, just before the outbreak of World War II, many
nations were engaged in rapid military expansion. Dr. Buchman
advocated that peace would not be gained by armament using
weapons and that what was required was a re-armament of morals,
not arms.
The movement upheld the four values common to every religion
and ethnic group: absolute moral standards of honesty, purity,
unselfishness and love. The movement encouraged people from all
corners of the world to converse face-to-face, exchange ideas,
and discuss solutions to problems as individual human beings that
share these four values.
Even now, MRA meetings are held annually at a small village
called Caux on the hillside of the Lake of Geneva in Switzerland.
The meetings, which encourage mutual acceptance of differences,
are attended by respected individuals of various religious
beliefs and from various ethnic groups from around the world. It
is a moving sight to see people, who have come from regions
experiencing fierce conflict, holding serious dialogues within
the relaxed and spiritual atmosphere of the meetings.
Another belief of the MRA movement is that individuals must
first undergo self-transformation in order to be able to change
the world. I wholly agree. I believe that our planetary crisis
must be confronted by applying _kyosei_ to individual behavior as
well as by employing the philosophy at the national and corporate
levels.
The Caux Round Table Conference is a venue where business
executives from the U. S., Europe and Japan hold talks in the
spirit of MRA. Based on discussions conducted by the group, "The
Caux Round Table Principles for Business" was adopted and
announced in l994.
It was the first attempt by business executives from various
countries to jointly define the ethics of corporate activities.
The concept of _kyosei_ was incorporated into the definition,
which was finalized as: "To strive for mutual cooperation and
mutual prosperity in conjunction with healthy and fair
competition." It was also agreed that ethical values must be
considered in the corporate decision-making process. The group
supported the notion that the simple compliance with laws and the
meeting of market demands are inadequate as a guide for
responsible business. I find this very encouraging as it seem s
more people around the world are beginning to understand
_kyosei_.
Another example concerns a Japanese document about shipboard
regulations, called _Shuchu Kiyaku_. It was written at the
beginning of the 17th century by an international trader, Soan
Suminokura, with the assistance of Seika Fujiwara, who was then a
leading Confucian scholar, and describes ethics and regulations
for crew on trading ships.
As a basic principle it states that trade that can be
considered moral must be profitable for both parties in the
transaction. It also says that all people of the world deserve
respect as human beings, regardless of nationality or race and
that mutual respect must be shown for different cultures and
customs.
_Shuchu Kiyaku_ discusses such concepts as human rights and
equality and also expresses the sentiment of that I call
"_kyosei_ with the world."
Around the time that _Shuchu Kiyaku_ was written, Great
Britain, Holland and France commenced international trade,
focusing on the East Indies. It was at this time that thinkers in
Japan developed a conceptual approach capable of leading the
world.
The challenge lies ahead to increase understanding of
_kyosei_ and to achieve it at the individual, corporate, national
and international level.
Finally, I would like to acknowledge that my thoughts about
_kyosei_ have been shaped and inspired by the great and
far-sighted ideas of many leaders and philosophers.
I am both humbled and encouraged by the achievements of
great thinkers and those who have spearheaded change. Like them,
in articulating my thoughts, I would like to make a sincere
contribution, no matter how small, to a better world for all.
RYUZABURO KAKU
1926 Born in Aichi, Japan
1954 Graduated from Kyushu University in Economics
Joined Canon Camera Co. Inc. (Presently Canon Inc.)
1972 Appointed as Director
1974 Appointed as Managing Director
1977 Appointed as President and Representative Director
1989 Appointed as Chairman and Representative Director
1989 Vice Chairman of Japan Association of Corporate
Executives (April, 1989-April, 1995)
AWARDS
1985 Officer de la Legion d'Honneur (France)
1985 Medal of Honor with Blue Ribbon (Japan)
1993 Honorary citizenship of Dalian (China)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
INSTITUTE FOR INTERRELIGIOUS, INTERCULTURAL DIALOGUE
JOURNAL OF ECUMENICAL STUDIES -- CENTER FOR GLOBAL STUDIES
Religion Department, Temple University, Philadelphia, PA 19122
Tel: 215-204-7251 (off.); 477-1080 (home); FAX: 477-5928 or 204-4569
Leonard Swidler, Prof. of Catholic Thought & Interreligious Dialogue
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:18:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Dialogue Magazine
Dear Friends,
Dialogue Magazine has been cited repeatedly as an example where
individuals were treated unfairly by the US NSA.
We have gone through some of the details of the episode before
but it seems like we are going to go through them again. The
only thing I ask is that if we decide to talk about it, then
we should talk about it as completely as possible. If that is
not what people want, I personally see no reason for refering
to the case since it puts those of us who are not fully aware of
what happened in a state of confusion.
From what I have been able to gather in the posts regarding
"Dialogue" in the year that I have been on Talisman, the following
happened:
1. "Dialogue" was a magazine owned by individual Baha'is whose
articles were submitted for review.
2. One article, called "A Modest Proposal" dealt with suggestions
for reforming some pratices of Baha'i Administration, including
term limits. It was submitted for review and approved. Some members of
the NSA found it objectionable and spoke about it publically at the
National Convention. The editors of "Dialogue" were given certain
administrative sanctions.
The sanctions were appealed to the Universal House of Justice.
3. Dialogue was disbanded by the editors of the magazine to
demonstrate their obedience to the Administration - the monetary
loss amounted to some $10,000.
4. Sometime ago someone posted a letter from the House of Justice
to one of the individuals involved with the incident. In it, the
House states that the details of "A Modest Proposal" were *not* the
primary reason for the feelings of some of the "friends" [I am
assuming that by "friends", the House ment some members of the
US NSA]. That over the years, certain individuals, some editors
of "Dialogue", were involved in the LA Study Classes, some books
published by Kalimat Press, and Dialogue. That some of the activites
had led to a reference on the Voice of America program to refer
to a "dissident" group of Baha'is in California.
The House further outlined three things with which they saw problems
and that could be identified in the study classes, some books by
Kalimat and some artilces in "Dialogue":
1. Open criticism of the Institutions of the Faith often voiced in
intemperate languange.
2. Publicising the failings of individuals serving on the Institutions
of the Faith.
3. Trying to build support to put pressure on the institutions to
bring about change.
(This all from my memory of the letter which I have deleted from
my computer and do not have access to a hard copy at the moment.)
The letter went on to give a couple of example of other articles
which they saw as problematic.
Now, I have a question:
1. Why the choice of "A Modest Proposal" for the title of the
article? My memory of junior high (or high school) English is
a bit fuzzy but the original "Modest Proposal" was a tongue-in-cheeck
piece criticising the policies of the British government regarding
over-population due to emigration of the Irish to England proper.
I remember one suggestion was to kill the babies of the emigrants
and eat them. (I may have the charaters all mixed up but I think I
remeber the jest of it correctly.)
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: RE: religious "isms"
To: Doug Myers
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 16:28:12 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Doug Myers:
>
> I worship Baha'u'llah because it is through Him and Him alone that I can
> even have a glimmering of what God is and His attributes. As Philip says
> the Manifestations have fulfill multiple stations. Undoubtably that station
> of Their being that is the Divine Unity with God should be worshiped.
Dear Doug,
Welcome aboard. As the resident critic of Baha'i exclusivism,
I can always be counted on to question phrases like yours
above: "through Him and Him alone that I can even have a
glimmering..." Because you use "can" this would seem to imply
the *impossibility* for you, and perhaps for everyone, of having
"even a glimmering" of divinity and its attributes, other than
through Baha'u'llah. If you are speaking for yourself, my only
objection is to say that you're selling yourself short. The
entire creation is a testimony to the Creator, no? (Or the
Creative Energies to use Edgar Cayce's synonym for God).
Divine attributes are reflected everywhere, all the time, if we
know where to look, aren't they? I believe you *can* have a
glimmering from watching a sunset, or playing with a baby, or
reading the Bible or Bhagavad Gita, and that you repeatedly
*have* had such glimmerings. More emphatically I can say that
through non-Baha'i sources. And that there are as many
quotations in the writings justifying this claim as there are
saying that all non-Baha'is are hopelessly lost.
When Baha'is make extreme, exclusive claims for Baha'u'llah,
I cannot help but wonder if this is just in-group rhetoric not
designed for outsiders' ears (eyes). My pointing it out is not
intended to badger you, but to let you "see yourselves as
others see you." More inclusive rhetoric will lead more people
to want to be included among your ranks.
Cheers
Paul
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:31:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Plan from the Universal House of Justice (fwd)
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 11:32:52
From: Art Stanwood
To: Baha'i Campus Forum
31 December 1995
To the Baha'is of the World
Dearly loved Friends,
In the wake of the dynamic spirit animating the six-day-long Counsellors'
Conference at the World Centre, now in its final session as we address you,
we take the occasion to announce our decision which has been the subject of
their deliberations: At Ridvan 1996 a global plan of expansion and
consolidation will be launched, to end four years later at Ridvan 2000.
It is this anticipation that has focused the thoughts of the seventy-eight
Counsellors from the five continents, who have been conferring together in
the presence of the Hands of the Cause of God Amatu'l-Baha Ruhiyyih Khanum,
`Ali- Akbar Furutan and `Ali-Muhammad Varqa, the members of the Universal
House of Justice and the Counsellor members of the International Teaching
Centre. Their consultations on the challenges and prospects facing the
Baha'i world community have been of such calibre and content as to have
emboldened our expectations of a mighty thrust in the growth and
development of that community during the crucial years immediately ahead.
The whole Plan will be announced at Ridvan. However, we wish you to have
some information about it now within the measure of the discussions which
have been taking place at the Counsellors' Conference.
The Four Year Plan will aim at one major accomplishment: a significant
advance in the process of entry by troops. This is to be achieved through
marked progress in the activity and development of the individual believer,
of the institutions, and of the local community. Keen attention to all
three will ensure a greatly expanded, visibly united, vibrant and cohesive
international community by the end of the twentieth century. The basic
requisites can be summarized as follows.
The first calls for a vitality of the faith of each believer that is
expressed through personal initiative and constancy in teaching the Cause
to others, and through conscientious, individual effort to provide energy
and re- sources to upbuild the community, to uphold the authority of its
institutions, and to support local and regional plans and teaching
projects. The second requires that local and national Baha'i institutions
evolve more rapidly into a proper exercise of their responsibilities as
channels of guidance, planners of the teaching work, developers of human
resources, builders of communities, and loving shepherds of the multitudes.
The third, the flourishing of the community especially at the local level,
demands a significant enhancement in patterns of behaviour by which the
collective expression of the virtues of the
individual members and the functioning of the Spiritual Assembly is
manifest in the unity and fellowship of the community and the dynamism of
its activity and growth.
To the Baha'is of the World 2 31 December 1995
Towards these ends, the work of the Continental Counsellors must assume
new dimensions. Thus, at their conference, they have been deliberating on
such matters as:
- Developments in the mode of the functioning of the Continental
Boards of Counsellors.
- The process for the elaboration of the Plan through the formulation
of derivative plans and strategies at the national, regional, and local
levels. Joint consultations between the Continental Counsellors and
National Spiritual Assemblies will begin immediately after Ridvan, and the
planning process will move quickly to the regional level, involving
Auxiliary Board members, Local Spiritual Assemblies and committees.
- The development of human resources to meet the needs of a rapidly
expanding community. Large-scale growth necessitates sustained measures of
consolidation. The urgent requirement is for formally conducted programmes
of training through institutes and other centres of learning, in the
establishment and operation of which the Counsellors and Auxiliary Board
members will become more intimately involved.
- Effective approaches to the raising up and consolidation of Local
Spiritual Assemblies. In accordance with the objective of fostering the
maturation of these Assemblies, a greater effort is required
to uphold a vital principle, which is that the responsibility for electing
a Local Spiritual Assembly rests primarily on the Baha'is in the locality.
The Auxiliary Board members and their assistants are to increase their
efforts to improve the general understanding of this principle and will
devote more attention to assisting the development of Local Assemblies. As
of Ridvan 1997, all Local Spiritual Assemblies throughout the world will
have to be elected on the First Day of Ridvan.
- Further means for the development of local Baha'i communities. The
needs in this respect will be met in part by an immediate increase in the
membership of the Auxiliary Boards for Protection to equal that of the
Auxiliary Boards for Propagation, so that Protection Board members can
directly and systematically assist on a wide scale the fundamental
activities of the community, such as the spiritual nurturing of individual
believers, the participation of women in all aspects of community life, the
observance of the Nineteen Day Feasts and Holy Days, the holding of
children's classes, the fostering of youth activities.
The seven objectives specified in previous Plans describe essential,
interacting directions that must advance simultaneously into the
foreseeable future. The Four Year Plan's aim at accelerating the process
of entry by troops identifies a necessity at this stage in the progress of
the Cause and in the state of human society. With this perspective, the
three inseparable participants in the evolution of the new World Order --
the individual, the institutions, and the community -- must now demonstrate
more tangibly than
To the Baha'is of the World 3 31 December 1995
ever before their capacity and willingness to embrace masses of new
adherents, to effect the spiritual and administrative transformation of
thousands upon thousands, and, above all, to multiply the army of
knowledgeable, consecrated teachers of a Faith whose emergence from
obscurity must be registered on the consciousness of countless multitudes
throughout the earth. These are among the detailed considerations that
have occupied the deliberations of the Continental Counsellors, who, upon
their return home and in the course of their work, will have occasion to
share the results of their conference with the friends.
An auspicious beginning for the new Plan will largely depend on the
results of the current one, which will end in just a few months. The
adequacy of these results will owe much to the degree to which the Local
Spiritual Assemblies and the friends carry out the directions of their
National Spiritual Assemblies, the generals of every Plan. Time is
slipping away. This reality should prod us all to maximum action. Hence,
in preparation for what beckons us on the near horizon, we cannot, we must
not, hesitate to expend every energy to bring the Three Year Plan to a
successful conclusion. The urgency which intensifies our desire for such
an outcome is not merely pride of victory, gratifying as that may be.
There are divine deadlines to be met. Our work is intended not only to
increase the size and consolidate the foundations of our community, but
more particularly to exert a positive influence on the affairs of the
entire human race. At so crucial a moment in world affairs, we must not
fail in our duty to take timely action on the goals set before us in the
Three Year Plan.
With the full fervour of our expectant hearts, we call upon you all,
individually and collectively, to arise to the summons of the Lord of Hosts
to teach His Cause. Do so with love, faith and courage; and the doors of
heaven will open wide to pour forth benedictions upon your efforts.
With loving Baha'i greetings,
[signed: The Universal House of Justice]
=END=
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 15:22:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Primary Sources on Baha'u'llah
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Our resident expert on Baha'u'llah's narratives is of course the
one and only Juan Cole, but it seems to me that he lists the
major accounts and that indeed there are lots of smaller
narratives of which are also primary sources of His life. The
problem of course is the fact that the World Centre's records, so
it's claimed, not organized enough for a complete list to be made
available.
But among such primary biographies by companions of Baha'u'llah
one could list:
1. the second section of Nabil's Narrative
2. Mathnavi-i Nabil-i Zarandi (published in Egypt)
3. the chronicle of Aqa Riza Qannad-i Shirazi
4. the chronicle of Aqa Husayn Ashchi
5. the chronicle of Muhammad-`Ali Salmani
6. notes of Mirza Tarazu'llah Samandari (soon to be published by
the Kalimat Press)
7. the chronicle of Mirza Habibu'llah Afnan
8. the memories of Zaynu'l-Muqarrabin
9 & 10. Zuhuru'l-Haqq, volumes 4 and 5 (which contain primary
sources).
But the real unknown is all the narratives the beloved Guardian
commissioned to be written by believers who were with Baha'u'llah
at different times. My guess is that there are many such
narratives left, but very few are mentioned.
For instances, in an article on the Tablet of Carmel, the Hand of
the Cause Khadem quoted from a narrative of a believer (not
listed above) who was present on the occasion when Baha'u'llah
pointed to the spot where the Shrine of the Bab is to be built.
This narrative was specifically commissioned by Shoghi Effendi
but I'm not aware of any other reference to it than this article
of Khadem.
Anyway, my point is that in absence of the World Centre's
cooperation in providing lists and catalogues, its impossible to
put together a near-complete list of primary source materials on
Baha'u'llah.
And obviously once lists are such items are provided, then all of
sudden you've got to deal with requests for copies. So its seems
to me that lists will become available only when the World Centre
has judged it propitious to also make available the actual text
of the narratives.
> ... and why Baha'i academics and historians at large are denied
> access to them? Is this a matter of policy? If so, what is the
> rationale behind the policy?
From the little correspondence that I've seen the World Centre's
policy is to consider each request on its individual merit. I
take the World Centre at their word that there is no list of
"approved scholars", and if their resources permit they will
assist with research questions, documentation, etc. Yes, its
indeed true that *on occasions* the World Centre denies access to
certain items. It happens to everyone. Recently I was denied a
certain item but now I've sent a detailed letter explaining why
access to it is critical for my efforts. I'm hopeful.
If folks are interested on translating and/or publishing any of
these items, my suggestion is to engage the Research Department.
best regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 10:45 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Cc: natbahaiofnz@attmail.com (National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of New
Zealand)
Several Talismanians have written in support of the idea that national
spiritual assemblies should be more open in their communications with their
communities. One practical suggestion was that a national spiritual assembly
could print summaries of its non-confidential consultations in its national
newsletter.
In several of the 1995 editions of the New_Zealand_Baha'i_News, the National
Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of New Zealand included a one-page summary
of the items it had been working on during the previous few months. The tone
of the summaries seemed more personal than the rest of the National
Assembly's reports in the magazine. In part, phrases like -- "At its May
meeting, the National Spiritual Assembly approved a proposal" -- made it
easy to visualise the members of the National Spiritual Assembly meeting
together. Also, the items often told readers a little about the National
Spiritual Assembly's vision, hopes and fears. Often, the National Spiritual
Assembly explained the consultative process it was going through in dealing
with an item of business, particularly when decisions hadn't been reached.
I found the items in the summaries really useful. Many provided reassuring
news of projects that had few "newsworthy" milestones, so hadn't been
reported on for a long time -- but which were obviously still being actively
managed, and which seemed to be on track.
At around the same time that the summaries appeared in the
New_Zealand_Baha'i_News, the National Spiritual Assembly held several of its
monthly meetings in cities outside of Auckland, where its national office is
located.
The combined effect of these initiatives was that I felt very close to my
National Assembly, and very in touch with what it was doing.
ka kite ano,
Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alison and Steve Marshall
Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:31:13 PST8PDT
Subject: RE (3): Re (2): Fascism and inflammatory language
Greetings Hannah/Blessed Ones,
Thanks for the insightful and well balanced comments.
Please feel free to reply as appropriate, but after this, I'm
done with this topic as I'm totally incapable of bringing any
inspired, profound or original thinking to bear on it.
I personally don't use the term "fascist" in MOST "Baha'i
contexts", but it doesn't give me any major hemorrhoids
either when it is used within larger commentary relating
to the tensions and struggles in the community over values
and the politics of "meaning".
Obviously it would indeed be deplorable if people just start
screaming "fascist" or other similar terms at each other.
Since I'm still behind in reading (much less digesting!)
talisman, I'm not sure we have fully explored the context
that it was used in in the original email message. If
political groups in Europe are repopularizing the ideas
and attitudes of fascism, we should be probably be as
vigilant in guarding against any form of their introduction
into Baha'i "thought" as we are in trying to uproot any
inappropriate forms of democratic "liberalism" from it.
Perhaps you missed Terry's e.g. of a state Baha'i committee
that excoriated him for a (proposed?) innovative summer school
curriculum.
Unless there is more to the story than stated, it would seem
to be the kind of behaviour that I might privately refer to
with like minded folks as characterising "fundamentalist" or
"fascist" *tending* Baha'i behaviour, but I would of course
NEVER directly state such in a general public forum. :)
It would be hard to think of any such characterizations as
being "constructive", indeed they are just shortcuts of a
lazy mind, and I probably wouldn't use them unless the other
person understood them as such. In my own private thoughts
about some Baha'i behaviour I have experienced/observed, I
take the shortcut from a multitude of terms such as "bullying,
brainwashing, thought control, intimidation, rigid conformism,
abuses of administrative authority, etc." to "fascist" (at
least a kinder gentler fascism) mainly because it is easy to
use one word instead of 10 or 20.
Hope that helps,
EP
ps, which Orwell book are we talking about? I have only read
"Homage to Catalonia".
> From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
> To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
> "Eric D. Pierce"
> Subject: RE: Re (2): Fascism and inflammatory language
> Date sent: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:03:29 -0800
> The political update is very nice and all that but not to the point. Using a
> word such as fascist in a Baha'i context is not a good idea. Don't you
> agree? Does anyone really want to refer to current Baha'i administrative
> practice as fascist? Does that achieve anything constructive (ignoring how
> tainted the terminology is, by the way)?
>
> Hannah
>
> ----------
> From: Eric D. Pierce[SMTP:PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, 02 January, 1996 3:33 AM
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Re (2): Fascism and inflammatory language
>
> Greetings Blessed Ones,
>
> There are a lot of scary political neofascists in Spain and Italy
> RIGHT NOW, and the super-ultra-conservative/neofascist movements
> are becoming more and more popular, partly due to scandals and
> economic mismanagement by the socialist party, which has been in
> charge of national government since the early 1980s. I'm tempted
> to make an over generalized statement about parallels with the
> Limbaugh/Gingrich mentality.
> >
> >
> > Speaking of extremes of rhetoric and belief, I found it curious that
> someone
> > recently said, regarding a conception of Baha'i administration disallowing
> > public criticism of Assembly decisions, that it leaves "fascism" as "the
> > only
> > possibility" for a Baha'i government.
> >
> > I find this curious because under fascism in the Hitlerian sense, as well
> as
> > under the various other forms of totalitarianism, outspoken dissidents are
> > killed or sent away to die of malnutrition or exposure in remote labor
> > camps.
> >
> > << > --H.R.>>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:37:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Masumian@mail.utexas.edu, frlw@midway.uchicago.edu
Subject: Reuters 1/1/96 (fwd)
>Transmission date: 96/01/01
> 1. 08:50 IRAN OFFICIALS WARN OF HIGH SMOG LEVELS IN TEHRAN
> 2. 04:45 IRANIAN GROUP CALLS FOR ANTI-U.S. DEMONSTRATION
> 3. 16:13 IRANIAN MEDIATION TEAM IN KURD-RUN N. IRAQ - PAPER
> 4. 14:15 IRAN WITHDRAWS FILM FROM OSCAR RUN OVER U.S. PLAN
> 5. 06:09 IRAN MAY PROTEST TO U.N., COURT OVER U.S. FUND
>
>
>=START= XMT: 15:10 Mon Jan 01 EXP: :00 Thu Jan 04
>
>
> Iran officials warn of high smog levels in Tehran
> TEHRAN, Jan 1 (Reuter) - Tehran city officials on Monday warned about
>unusually high smog levels in the Iranian capital, urging citizens to curb the
>use of cars and other sources of air pollution.
> ``The concentration of these materials (toxic carbon monoxide, lead and
>sulphur dioxide) in the city has reached levels several times higher than the
>allowed amount and has put the people's health in danger,'' Tehran radio said.
> City officials urged residents to cut down on driving and avoid lighting
>polluting heating equipment at home and at work, the newspaper Ettelaat said.
> Pollution levels in Tehran are among the worse in the Middle East,
>particularly during winter months when the cold air hanging over the city
>creates a thermal inversion that prevents car fumes from dispersing.
> The daily Hamshahri, published by Tehran's municipality, carried a cartoon
>showing Santa Claus and his reindeers visiting the city all wearing gas masks
>to deliver a gift-wrapped gas mask to a child.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 13:32 Mon Jan 01 EXP: :00 Thu Jan 04
>
>
> Iranian group calls for anti-U.S. demonstration
> (Updates with demonstration call, previous NICOSIA)
> TEHRAN, Jan 1 (Reuter) - An influential Iranian state organisation called
>for a demonstration in Tehran on Tuesday to protest moves in the U.S. Congress
>to fund a covert action plan against the Iranian government.
> The Islamic Propagation Organisation (IPO), in a statement quoted by Tehran
>radio on Monday, called on people to ``march to the United Nations building,
>chanting 'Death to America' to condemn the U.S. plot and the silence of world
>bodies...''
> IPO, a government-affiliated body responsible for much of Iran's Islamic
>publicity at home and abroad, called the U.S. plan ``a blatant violation of
>international law,'' and regretted ``the silence of world human rights
>forums,'' the radio said.
> Iran said earlier on Monday it would protest to the U.N. and the
>International Court of Justice in the Hague if the Congress approved the $20
>million covert action programme against the Iranian government.
> Tehran also said it had withdrawn its film entry in the foreign-language
>category of the Academy Awards to protest the plan, which Iranian officials
>condemned as ``state terrorism.''
> Deputies in Iran's parliament have supported a move for an Iranian fund to
>fight American ``conspiracies'' against Islamic countries.
> The United States has been increasing its pressure on Iran since imposing a
>trade and investment ban against it in June.
> Washington accuses Tehran of fostering terrorism and seeking to develop
>nuclear weapons. Iran denies the charges.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:23 Mon Jan 01 EXP: :00 Thu Jan 04
>
>
> Iranian mediation team in Kurd-run n. Iraq - paper
> TEHRAN, Jan 1 (Reuter) - An Iranian delegation is visiting northern Iraq to
>mediate between rival Kurdish groups who control the region, an Iranian
>newspaper said on Monday.
> The daily Ettelaat said the delegation met Massoud Barzani, leader of the
>Kurdish Democratic Party and Adham Barzani, leader of the pro-Iranian Islamic
>Kurdish Hizbollah (Party of God).
> The team was lead by Ali Aghamohammadi, it said without giving his
>position.
> Aghamohammadi also met Kurdish Moslem clerics and stressed the need to end
>in-fighting among Iraqi Kurds, Ettelaat added.
> Iran last week hosted a two-day meeting on Iraq of officials from the
>Iranian, Syrian and Turkish foreign ministries.
> Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati told the Tehran meeting that
>Iran opposed any likely plan to partition Iraq.
> The remarks were in apparent reaction to statements by Jordan's King
>Hussein who has promoted the concept of an Iraqi federation, grouping the three
>major components of the population -- the Kurds in the North, the Sunni Moslems
>and the Shi'ite Moslems.
> About 3,000 people have been killed in intermittent fighting between the
>armed Kurdish groups since 1994.
> The militias have shared the control of northern Iraq, since shortly after
>the 1991 Gulf War. The Kurds are shielded from Baghdad by a Western air force
>based in Turkey.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 09:45 Mon Jan 01 EXP: :00 Thu Jan 04
>
>
> Iran withdraws film from Oscar run over U.S. plan
> TEHRAN, Jan 1 (Reuter) - Iran has withdrawn its film entry for an Oscar
>award to protest moves in the U.S. Congress to fund covert action against the
>Iranian goverment, local newspapers said on Monday.
> ``Iran will not take part in the Oscar competitions...in protest against
>the recent U.S. Congress allocation of budget to topple the Islamic Republic,''
>Ezzatollah Zarghami, the top official in charge of films at the Islamic Culture
>and Guidance Ministry, was quoted by the daily Iran News as saying.
> ``The White Balloon,'' a double award winner at the latest Cannes Film
>Festival, was submitted in October as Iran's entry in the foreign-language
>category of the Academy Awards.
> ``It would be most inappropriate to screen such an emotive and sentimental
>film full of love and affection in a nation which is ruled by (a) world
>arrogant power under totally inhuman conditions,'' Zarghami was quoted by the
>Iranian news agency IRNA as saying.
> Iran has condemned moves in the Congress to allocate up to $20 million to
>fund a covert action programme against the Iranian government, branding it
>``state terrorism.''
> ``The White Balloon'' is the story of a young girl's quest for a goldfish
>in a world of adults ranging from the friendly to the oblivious and
>belligerant.
> The film, directed by Jafar Panahi, won the Camera d'Or prize as best first
>feature and the International Critics award for best film among noncompetition
>entries.
> Iranian films have had a flurry of international successes in the past few
>years, winning prizes at several festivals, including in Venice, Locarno, and
>Valladolid.
> But Iranian leaders, including supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, have
>warned that this was not to be seen as an honour. Western juries often awarded
>films that showed Iran under a bad light, with scenes of poverty and adversity,
>they said.
> In an apparent response to these remarks, Zarghami said in the future,
>films would be sent to foreign festivals ``based on the principles of honour,
>power, wisdom and good intentions,'' the daily Abrar reported.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 05:38 Mon Jan 01 EXP: :00 Thu Jan 04
>
>
> Iran may protest to U.N., court over U.S. fund
> NICOSIA, Jan 1 (Reuter) - Iran said on Monday it would protest to the
>United Nations and the World Court if the U.S. Congress approved a covert
>action fund to destabilise the Iranian government.
> ``If Washington does not reject the congressional act against the Islamic
>Republic, Iran will lodge a protest with the U.N. and the International Court
>of Justice,'' Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman Mahmoud Mohammadi said.
> ``The era of anarchy in international relations has ended and the United
>States is obliged to respect international laws and commitments,'' the Iranian
>news agency IRNA quoted him as saying.
> Iran has condemned moves in the U.S. Congress to allocate up to $20 million
>to fund a covert action programme aimed at moderating policies of the Islamic
>Republic's government, branding it ``state terrorism.''
> Deputies in Iran's parliament on Sunday supported a move for an Iranian
>fund to fight American ``conspiracies'' against Islamic countries.
> The United States has been increasing its pressure on Iran since imposing a
>trade and investment ban against it in June.
> Washington accuses Tehran of fostering terrorism and seeking to develop
>nuclear weapons. Iran denies the charges.
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:39:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Reuters 1/2/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/02
> 1. 15:10 IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER TO VISIT INDIA
> 2. 13:32 SALMAN RUSHDIE WINS MAJOR BRITISH BOOK AWARD
> 3. 12:23 IRANIAN PROTESTERS BURN U.S. PRESIDENT'S ``COFFIN''
> 4. 09:48 IRAN SAYS FUSION, NEW ENERGY RESEARCH ADVANCING
>
>=START= XMT: 12:54 Tue Jan 02 EXP: :00 Fri Jan 05
>
>
> Iranian foreign minister to visit India
> TEHRAN, Jan 2 (Reuter) - Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati will
>visit India next week to discuss trade and political ties with Indian leaders
>and businessmen, Iran's official news agency IRNA said on Tuesday.
> It said Velayati would go to Bombay on January 10 on a three-day visit to
>attend a meeting of Indian industrialists and to discuss bilateral cooperation
>with top officials of India's External Affairs Ministry, the agency said,
>quoting an unnamed informed source at the Iranian Foreign Ministry.
> Velayati visited New Delhi in October and held talks with Indian Prime
>Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao on building a gas pipeline from the central Asian
>nation of Turkmenistan to India through Iran.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:30 Tue Jan 02 EXP: :00 Fri Jan 05
>
>
> Salman Rushdie wins major British book award
>(Embargoed for release at 0001 GMT, Jan 3)
> LONDON, Jan 3 (Reuter) - Writer Salman Rushdie, who still faces a death
>threat from Iran, won one of Britain's leading literary awards for his latest
>novel on Wednesday.
> Rushdie won the Whitbread Novel Award's 2,000 pounds ($3,096) for ``The
>Moor's Last Sigh,'' the tale of an Indian spice dynasty.
> He last won the award in 1988 for ``The Satanic Verses,'' the work which
>outraged Muslims and prompted a death sentence for blasphemy from Iran's
>revolutionary Islamic leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.
> He had been hot favourite to win the Booker prize, Britain's leading
>literary award, for his latest novel but surprisingly lost out to Pat Barker
>for her World War One saga ``The Ghost Road.''
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 11:58 Tue Jan 02 EXP: :00 Fri Jan 05
>
>
> Iranian protesters burn U.S. president's ``coffin''
> By Sharif Imam-Jomeh
> TEHRAN, Jan 2 (Reuter) - Demonstrators burned coffins and chanted ``Death
>to America'' in an anti-U.S. rally in Tehran on Tuesday to protest at moves in
>the U.S. Congress to fund covert activities against Iran.
> About 2,000 Iranians, mostly young men, marched to the U.N. office in the
>north of the city where they set fire to two coffins wrapped in U.S. flags.
> ``It is the coffins of (U.S. President Bill) Clinton and (Newt) Gingrich we
>are burning,'' a rally organiser told the crowd, referring to press reports
>that House Majority Leader Gingrich was behind moves to allocate $20 million
>for a covert action plan against Iran.
> ``The Iranian government is restricting us because they want to observe
>international laws.. But once we are free we shall show Gingrich what it is to
>interfere in the internal affairs of other countries,'' Hassan Allahkarami, an
>Islamist student activist, told the crowd.
> ``If America makes a move in the Persian Gulf we shall sink its fleet,''
>shouted a demonstrator as the crowd chanted ``Down with the United States'' and
>``Down with U.S. terrorism.''
> Iran opposes the large U.S. naval presence, maintained in the Gulf region
>since the 1991 Gulf War, as destabilising.
> The rally, called at a day's notice, was smaller than earlier anti-U.S.
>events organised well in advance by state-affiliated bodies.
> ``Let this be a warning to those who talk of negotiations or ties with
>America...we will denounce anyone who says such things as getting money from
>America and as a spy,'' Allahkarami said.
> A few liberal Tehran politicians have in the past few years suggested
>normalising ties with Washington, but such moves have met with swift
>condemnation by most Iranian leaders.
> The crowd raised banners reading ``America cannot do a damn thing,'' and
>``U.S. must be expelled from the U.N.,'' in front of the U.N. office which was
>guarded by dozens of policemen.
> ``If Hizbollah is allowed to act, we will prove that nowhere in the world
>is safe for the U.S....We shall respond to any move by the U.S. in far places
>such as in Europe or inside America,'' Allahkarami said.
> Hizbollah (Party of God) in a domestic Iranian context refers to zealous
>Islamic militants that give grass-root support to the government.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 09:41 Tue Jan 02 EXP: :00 Fri Jan 05
>
>
> Iran says fusion, new energy research advancing
> TEHRAN, Jan 2 (Reuter) - Iran said on Tuesday its research on fusion and
>other alternative energies was going forward despite U.S. pressures against
>Tehran.
> President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, quoted by Tehran radio, said Iran had
>made progress toward using new energies ``despite efforts by the United States
>and others that do not want...Iran to reach its worthy place in the use of new
>energies...''
> The United States has also failed to stop work on Iran's Bushehr nuclear
>powerplant, which is to be rebuilt by Russia under a $800 million deal,
>Rafsanjani was quoted by the radio as saying.
> He was speaking on a visit to an alternative energy centre, part of Iran's
>Atomic Energy Organisation.
> The centre also carries out solar, tidal, geothermal and wind energy
>research and has set up four solar and wind-powered powerplants, it added.
> Washington accuses Tehran of fostering terrorism and seeking to develop
>nuclear weapons and has imposed a trade and investment ban against it since
>June. Iran denies the charges.
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:06:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: Doug Myers
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: religious "isms"
On Tue, 2 Jan 1996, Doug Myers wrote:
> I worship Baha'u'llah because it is through Him and Him alone that I can
> even have a glimmering of what God is and His attributes.
and then Doug quoted Baha'u'llah telling us that God has provided
glimmerings of His attributes before. :-)
> "As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He
> hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance,
> the Symbols of His divine unity,
> and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical
> with the knowledge of His own Self.
> Whoso recognizeth them hath recognized God." ("Gleanings", pages 49-50)
Four times, Baha'u'llah reminds us that we may better know God and His
attriubtes by recognizing all of His Manifestations.
The first time he refers to Day Stars; the second time he refers to
Symbols; the third time to sanctified Beings, and the fourth time he
refers to them. The plurality of these references is important to my
vision of Baha'u'llah.
Baha'u'llah on at least two occasions which come to mind extol us to read
the myraid verses of scriptures revealed by Manifestations of God from
the past as one method to verify Him as the Manifestation that He claims
to be.
Because of similar statements repeated by Baha'u'llah, I have a profound
appreciation of the spiritualizing effects of God's more well known
Manifestations. I have from Christ an appreciation of sacrifice, from
Muhammad a sense of national patriotism, from Abraham familial values,
from Buddhism a sense of the abstract. These spiriitual influences
interweave and overlap in such a way as to unlock the spiritual realities
available to humanity at all times.
Baha'u'llah, to me, is one unlocker ("the" one for this age) of the
potential within the human family; Christ is another, and so is Buddha.
According to Baha'u'llah, they represent one reality as viewed from a
changing human perspective.
Baha'u'llah's revelation, while complete in and of itself, is a
still a continuation of God's eternal presence among us. This presence has
manifested in other ways in other times, but it was still the presence of
God.
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Homosexuality/Conscience
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 02:24:26 -0600 (CST)
Hi, Dave -
Thanks for your note. (BTW, did you all get bombed with all those
old messages from Talisman, Noble Creation, Baha'i Intuition, Baha'i
Tech etc.? I counted 450,000 bytes in about 90 minutes! Yet, without
that, I might not have received Dave Taylor's message, which was
apparently lost during one of my server's recent crashes. So I must,
at least on that account, be grateful to this individual.)
I agree with you regarding the social constructedness of sexual
to identity. Irrespective of whether there are any biological correlates
to homosexuality (and I rather suspect there are), the key is how human
sexuality is defined within the context of revealed truths. Obviously,
itt is a complex subject and one which, I think, will only be grasped
progressively.
From my POV, sex, on the animal level, *is* love. Like all things
physical, one's sexuality, as I think the Kashmir Shaivites understood
it, can be either a source of frustration and possible debasement or a
vehicle for spiritual transformation. In the dance of Shakti and Shiva
is a demonstration of the divine metaphysic of unity in diversity.
Femininity and masculinity, rather than viewed as distinct and separate
units, can be seen, in contemporary terms, as a holographic image. The
point of light is one. However, the appearance of spatial patterns
(diversity) is merely an emanation or impression of that unity of light.
In what could, perhaps, be called a Baha'i "tantra," all things have
certain ideal relationships. Conformity to the gestalt (configuration)
leads to the expression of beauty (the emanation of the Ancient Beauty)
in the kingdoms of creation. The key for discovering the divine pattern
lies in the Prophetic Teachings (the inner mysteries of "the words He
hath revealed"). That, to me, is the challenge. Our present-day world
order is so remote from the ideal that the gestalt itself, the tantra,
has been almost totally disrupted. However, rather than focusing
*primarily* on ameliorating the misconnections in the reality of outward
appearances, I would rather understood the inner dynamic which generates
the externals and attempt to work with it.
IMHO, gaia and all life on it itself express a tantric imbalance.
Homosexuality is only one small dimension of it. Rather than condemning
the condition of dis-ease which affects each one of us, perhaps we could
instead examine the spiritual animus which is responsible for our
present state of self-addiction. What virtues do I choose to link with,
and how can one's moral community, one's 'umma, realize one of its
primary functions as a cultivator of spiritual qualities.
Bright blessings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Co-Moderator, Baha'i Announce *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Internet) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's
diversity
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:02:25 -0800
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Plan from the Universal House of Justice (fwd)
Wow! That was quick.. It made it rounds to all the email forums...
Margreet
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:30:41 EST
Subject: deification/becoming distinct
Dear friends,
A few months ago our community had a booth and a table full of
pamphlets with nice board of pictures depicting the diversity in our
community at our college's brickyard. The success of this effort
was reported at the feast. It wass told that there was a street
preacher who was yelling at the students about end of times ,fire and
hell etc. which showed the contrast between Baha'i message and
community vs. "others". I was disturbed by this comparison and spoke
up in defense of christians who also receive this man's wrath and we
should not feel good about such things and be a distinct on our own
efforts without such comparisons. I felt sad, honestly.
On the issue of deification of Prophets: When in school, in a biology
class I had a tremendous admiration for my teacher. I did not miss
any class or lab session. But, alas I was not learning much mostly
due to my lack of interest at that time. Needless to say I got a bad
grade. I think religion is the same way. The true Teacher is more
interested in the progress of the students and not so much how they
adore Him. Or, I must be missing something. Is religion used as a
psychodellic, or spiritual magnetism to gather human energy?
love learn serve
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:35:57 PST8PDT
Subject: mass expansion, global 4 year plan, rights and freedoms
Whew! Interesting/Amazing! I love how Baha'is are now
being encouraged to develop institutes and other centers
for formal learning, and that the appointed learned are
being asked to *directly and systematically* assist the
"spiritual nurturing of individual believers". It's about
time!
Anyway, I need some help here.
My multiple readings of both the "Community Functioning" and
"Individual Rights" messages have left me unsatisfied and
slightly puzzled and uncomfortable (sorry, I can't give
specifics at this time other than to say that they seem to
reinforce the dreaded status quo). I'm afraid this is due to my
lack of spirituality and intelligence, so I would like to know
if it is appropriate to ask for a discussion of those messages
(or other pertinent documents that I don't know about) so that
maybe I can feel a bit more prepared to support all three
aspects of this incredible upcoming 4 year plan, especially the
individual and community components. Given that it is
unlikely that complete concensus will emerge on talisman,
perhaps an attempt should be made to summarize some of the
most important differences of opinion that relate to "reforms"
(or "evolution" as S. Fotos has proposed) so that clarifications
or confirmations can be requested.
The important specifics of the May 1994 letter to the USA NSA
are not all that vivid in my thinking, does anyone have an ecopy
that they can forward, or the address of an internet site where
I can pick it up?
Besides the entire mass of administrative related texts, any
specific suggestions about other materials that would be good
reading to develop a better understanding of the "Community
Functioning" and "Individual Rights" letters?
Thanks,
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
> Date sent: Mon, 01 Jan 96 12:39:01 -0500
> From: "Ahang Rabbani"
> To: talisman@indiana.edu, atirandaz@medinfo.dom.uab.edu
> Subject: Message of the Universal House of Justice
> [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
>
> Dear friends,
>
> Attached is a copy of the Message of the Universal House of
> Justice which is being forwarded for your information. regards,
> ahang.
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
>
> [CONFIRMATORY COPY TO FOLLOW]
>
>
> 31 December 1995
>
>
>
>
> To the Baha'is of the World
>
>
> Dearly loved Friends,
>
> In the wake of the dynamic spirit animating the six-day-long
> Counsellors' Conference at the World Centre, now in its final session as
> we address you, we take the occasion to announce our decision which has
> been the subject of their deliberations: At Ridvan 1996 a global plan of
> expansion and consolidation will be launched, to end four years later at
> Ridvan 2000.
...snip
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:05:39 +1200
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC, reason, wisdom
Talismans,
Some notes towards the view that the acquisition of wisdom (the essence of
which is the fear of God etc) is a goal of the intellect...
On becaming a Baha'i my vision was sharpened. "Oh," I would think, "that
person is suffering because he is drinking alcohol. The Faith says we
shouldn't drink alcohol." Or: "I always wondered why I felt so heavy when
I was with these people, and now I see that all they seem to do is
back-bite and gossip, which are held by the Writings to be more damaging
than murder." And so on. Assisted by the tenets of faith, my vision was
sharpened... My understanding increased. I became more rational.... I
became more wise...
As I was becoming a Baha'i, I also started to learn about dreams. I
learned that they were fundamentally about my own ethical dilemmas in the
world of time and place. I learned that they inevitably spoke of future
events in which I would be tested. The darkness of the dream is the
(actual) torment of the coming test, I discovered. So, to analyse dreams
was to apply logical/scientific and ethical analyses to inward phenomena.
Thus, my training in science and religion progressed, my understanding
increased, I became more rational...more wise..
The growth of rationality is inseparable from ethical growth. Where the
mind approached the deepest human problems, the mind becomes increasingly
conscious of holy dread -- the fear of God which inspires a sense of the
need to be freed of blameworthy characteristics....
With these notes, I've decided to start posting "The Secret of Divine
Civilisation"... Many months ago I suggested a slow reading of this work,
and it now seems that there might be enough interest in it to proceed.
Unless anyone (partic. the esteemed list onwner) strongly objects, I'll
send installments daily until we're right through...
Robert.
THE SECRET OF DIVINE CIVILIZATION
In the Name of God the Clement, the Merciful
Praise and thanksgiving be unto Providence that out of all the realities
in existence He has chosen the reality of man and has honored it with
intellect and wisdom, the two most luminous lights in either world.
Through the agency of this great endowment, He has in every epoch cast on
the mirror of creation new and wonderful configurations. If we look
objectively upon the world of being, it will become apparent that from age
to age, the temple of existence has continually been embellished with a
fresh grace, and distinguished with an ever-varying splendor, deriving
from wisdom and the power of thought.
This supreme emblem of God stands first in the order of creation
and first in rank, taking precedence over all created things. Witness to
it is the Holy Tradition, "Before all else, God created the mind." From
the dawn of creation, it was made to be revealed in the temple of man.
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:02:15 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Three Simple Questions for Baha'i Professors and Professionals
Hello all I am forwarding this from another list..Any body care to answer.....
>
>[I am posting this as a personal favor to Mehrdad Baghai, who is
>conducting some research to assist the Association of Baha'i Studies.
>Please address your responses to Mehrdad at
>Mehrdad_Baghai@McKinsey.Com.--mmt]
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Our survey of Baha'i students has found an overwhelming need on their
>part to find suitrable Baha'i mentors to help them navigate the
>difficult decisions and circumstances of higher education:
>
> 1. Do you have a mentoring relationship with any Baha'i students?
> If so. please describe the nature if these relationships.
>
> 2. If not, what do you think it would take for you to engage in a
> mentoring role for younger students studying within your fiel
> (e.g., maximum time commitment, natural chemistry)?
>
> 3. Would you be willing to sign up to mentor any students (i.e.,
> initial contact and let the relationship develop as it may)?
>
>Thank you very much for your help!
>
>Mehrdad Baghai
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:00:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: LA TIMES Article on Iran 12/31/95
The Los Angeles Times
Sunday, December 31, 1995
Opinion Column, M1 & M3.
SILENCING IDEAS: THE CRISIS WITHIN IRAN'S THEOCRACY
By Robin Wright
Washington.
Iran now faces its most serious crisis since the death of the Ayatollah
Ruhollah Khomeini in 1989. It's not from neighboring Iraq, which still
has the largest and best equipped army in the Persian Gulf. It's not from
the United States, where the "Great Satan's" legislature imposed a double
whammy this month: $20 million for a new CIA program to destabilize
Tehran and new sanctions punishing foreign companies for doing business
with Iran.
This crisis, instead, comes from within.
After years of tentative openings -- allowing everything from fiery
public political debates to performances of Chekov plays and a feisty
media -- Iran is now moving to stifle the exchange of ideas in
universities, cultural circles, media and even at mosques. As a result,
the Islamic revolution that so recently appeared to be maturing, may
instead begin to implode.
Tension has erupted in part because of an issue pivotal to the
revolution's survival: The clergy's domination of every aspect of life.
The challenge is most startling, however, because it comes from the
Islamic faithful themselves.
The crisis is symbolized by the regimes crackdown on Abdol Karim
Soroush, Iran's leading philosopher and one of the world's foremost
proponents of reconciling Islam and democracy. His reformist ideas have
led both supporters and critics to compare his role to Martin Luther's
lead in reforming Christianity.
In the world's only modern theocracy, Soroush has come under harsh
political and physical attack in the past six months for writing about
the clergy. Muslim clerics, he argues, are equals rather than superiors
of the people. They should not gain politically or socially from
religion, nor should they be supported economically by the state or the
people.
"The clergy is always talking about the duties of the people but
they never speak about people's rights. The rule of the clergy is too
often based on the logic of power, not the logic of liberty," Soroush
explained in a recent interview.
Because his views hit hard at cornerstones of the Islamic republic,
Soroush has now been silenced, according to Iranian sources. Last month
he was virtually banned from lecturing, publishing or otherwise
disseminating his views.
The fury over Soroush within the highest levels of Iran's government
was reflected at the 16th anniversary of the U.S. Embassy takeover last
month. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, successor to revolutionary leader
Khomeini, spent as much time condemning Soroush's ideas as he did
discussing the United States or Israel.
"If someone confronts the clergy, he gladdens the Zionists and the
Americans more than anything else," Khamenei said. "They want the clergy
to cease to exist...This kind of talk -- understanding truths in such a
distorted way and publishing them in this way -- this is sedition." He
warned, "The Islamic system will slap these people hard in the face."
Soroush has often been threatened with violence. He has twice been
physically attacked and injured, forcing him to flee lectures in Isfahan,
in July, and at the University of Tehran, in October. The attackers, who
also injured students, appeared to be offcially sanctioned.
International human-rights groups are concerned for his life. Soroush
is now traveling in Europe and Canada, but is still in danger. Western
governments have linked Iranian agents to murders of more than a dozen
critics of the regime abroad.
And Soroush is not alone. "The government closed newspapers,
imprisoned critics, forcibly suppressed protests and condoned vigilante
attacks against domestic opposition," concluded "Human Rights Watch World
Report 1995," issued this month.
Even Iran's thriving movie industry, which has won several
international awards, including one at the Cannes film festival this
year, is under fire. More than 200 filmmakers petitioned for an end to
government interference in scripts, production, funding and distribution.
The response was a ban on the export of any film showing a "negative
image of Iran."
These tensions reflect changing dynamics within the clergy itself.
Khamenei has become far more powerful and more outspoken in defining
Iran's agenda, while the position of President Hashemi Rafsanjani,
once considered the most moderate Iranian politician, weakens. The
president is approaching the end of his second, and last, term in
office.
Iran's political environment is increasingly dominated by political
conservatives and xenophobes -- a trend likely to increase in
parliamentary elections in March and presidential elections in 1997. They
fiercely reject the kind of reforms put forward by Soroush and other
Muslim intellectuals.
This divide was visible after the August firebombing of a Tehran
bookstore that had published a book condemned by some clergy as
un-Islamic. Ranking government clergy praised the attack, saying the
arsonists did what the government should have done. When a newspaper
published by other clergy said those comments encouraged anarchy, its
offices were mobbed by demonstrators chanting, "Death to the enemies of
Islam."
Until the crackdown began in mid-1995, open debate within Iran had
reached unprecedented levels, even when compared to the Shah's era. And
some quarters are still trying.
After the October attack on Soroush, University of Tehran students
organized a pro-Soroush demonstration, the first implicitly
anti-government protest on campus since the 1979 revolution. The Muslim
Students Assn. petitioned the Revolutionary Guards commander not to
dispatch his troops on campus and named many of the more than 100 men who
attacked Soroush.
Soroush has long been a problem for the regime. Though a strong
supporter of the revolution, he has challenged the premise of clerical
rule.
"Using religion as an ideology makes it intolerant and authoritarian,"
he said in an interview. "And government and economics are the province of
intellect and reason, not religion."
But it was his writing on how the clergy's role has been corrupted
that led the regime to act. "Many clergy are feeding on religion," he
said. "Clerics should be "freed" from state or public financial support so
they are not beholden to propagate official views or "captive" to peoples
whims. Instead of privilege, the clergy should experience life's
hardships, earning a living through scholarship, teaching or other
jobs."
"Religion is for lovers of the faith, not dealers of the faith,"
Soroush explained.
As a sign of Soroush's growing international standing, leading U.S.
and European scholars have launched a letter-writing campaign to Iranian
authorities, appealing for an end to attacks on him.
At home, the attacks appear to be backfiring on the regime -- as
Soroush's following continues to grow. Thousands of cassettes of his
lectures now circulate among students, young technocrats and clerics
angered by the way the regime has tainted Islam.
Neither Iraq's Army nor U.S. power has seriously undermined the regime
for a simple reason: Proud of one of the world's oldest civilizations,
Iranians are nationalists first and foremost. And they want to control
their destiny -- what the 1979 revolution was originally about. They will
rally around even this regime when outsiders overtly or covertly
challenge it.
But the theocracy can be challenged by its own misrule, whether
economic mismanagement or political repression -- or both. And that's
exactly the context in which the ideas of Soroush and others have special
appeal and legitimacy. Stifling that debate may cost more than the
already tenuous regime can afford.
END
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 21:18:04 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: dancing
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Look, Derek and Burl, my biggest problem at MESA was that I kept getting
tangled up in the chains John kept me in. I coudn't possibly have danced in
Harry's Bar with Jimmy the Dairy Queen guy. Besides, Jimmy doesn't wear a
toupe, so it is obvious you two don't know what you are talking about.
We want truth here on Talisman, you two. And the two of you ganging up on me
does not constitute "unity." So, let's not play that little game.
As for John's being accosted by women who want to form temporary marriages with
him, believe me, he does not need my assistance. I cannot believe what a
powerful pheremone Arabic grammer is! Linda
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:48:34 -0800
To: "K. Paul Johnson"
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: RE: religious "isms"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>According to Doug Myers:
>>=20
>> I worship Baha'u'llah because it is through Him and Him alone that I can
>> even have a glimmering of what God is and His attributes. As Philip says
>> the Manifestations have fulfill multiple stations. Undoubtably that=
station
>> of Their being that is the Divine Unity with God should be worshiped.
>
>Dear Doug,
>
>Welcome aboard. As the resident critic of Baha'i exclusivism,
>I can always be counted on to question phrases like yours
>above: "through Him and Him alone that I can even have a
>glimmering..." Because you use "can" this would seem to imply
>the *impossibility* for you, and perhaps for everyone, of having
>"even a glimmering" of divinity and its attributes, other than
>through Baha'u'llah. If you are speaking for yourself, my only
>objection is to say that you're selling yourself short. The
>entire creation is a testimony to the Creator, no?
Yes, but only in limited ways. I am reminded of various places where
Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha compare this world, as beautiful and bountiful
as it is, to the *real* world, the spiritual world we will all eventually
graduate to. For that is how I view what men call death --- graduation from
the school that is this life to the life that is not fettered by the bounds
of material existence and sees all the wonders of God's creation in their
true beauty.
I refer you to "Selections from the Writings of =91Abdu=92l-Baha", section=
150,
pp. 177 - 178, which includes:
"Know thou that the Kingdom is the real world, and this nether place is
only its shadow stretching out. A shadow hath no life of its own; its=
existence
is only a fantasy, and nothing more; it is but images reflected in water,=
and
seeming as pictures to the mind."
and
Gleanings from the Writings of Baha=92u=92llah, pp. 328 - 329:
"Verily I say, this world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty
dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he
cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion. It may moreover, be=
likened
unto the lifeless image of the beloved whom the lover hath sought and found,=
in
the end, after long search and to his utmost regret, to be such as cannot
"fatten
nor appease hes hunger." =20
and
Kitab-i-Iqan, pg. 120 - 121:
"Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine
knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that the true life is not the life
of the
flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to
both man
and animals, whereas the life of the spirit is possessed only by the pure in
heart
who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of
certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by
immortality. Even as it hath been said: "He who is a true believer liveth=
both
in this world and in the world to come." If by "life" be meant this earthly
life,
it is evident that death must needs overtake it."=20
> (Or the
>Creative Energies to use Edgar Cayce's synonym for God).
>Divine attributes are reflected everywhere, all the time, if we
>know where to look, aren't they? I believe you *can* have a
>glimmering from watching a sunset, or playing with a baby, or
>reading the Bible or Bhagavad Gita, and that you repeatedly
>*have* had such glimmerings. More emphatically I can say that
>*billions* of people manage to have plenty of glimmerings of divinity
>through non-Baha'i sources. And that there are as many
>quotations in the writings justifying this claim as there are
>saying that all non-Baha'is are hopelessly lost.
I can tell that Talisman will sharpen my witts and forms of expression --- I
do believe in *consrtuctive criticism*. You are correct in pointing out the
exclusivity of my statements. I, or anyone else can have a *glimmering* of
God by reading the Bible, Qur'an, Bagavad Gita, Zendavesta, Torah, watching
a sunset [more about that below], studying nature with a spiritual
sensativity, or for that matter the creations of humanity such as
theBrooklyn of Golden Gate Bridges, the delicate yet powerful structures of
micro chips and processors --- without which this conversation would not be
possible, or even the doings and antics of humanity [I did enjoy Mark
Twain's "Letters from the Earth"], etc.
Yes, I was selling myself short by settling for a *glimmering*. I am greedy
[greed is not Politically Correct --- and the only PC I care about is me old
386!] for all that I can learn and understand about God. IMHO, the only way
*I* can succeed is through the most recent Manifestation of God ---
Baha'u'llah, the Word of God for today. Others may well find that for them
Christ or one of the other Manifestations, or for that matter, someother
path to knowledge is best for them --- I wish them well. My father, who is
a Baha'i, has had contact with his father, now past the veil of this world.
My father wanted to tell his father of the Faith of Baha'u'llah but Dad, as
he was called, was not interested. He was happy with his faith in Jesus.
If this satisfies him, then well and good. I only know what is good for me
--- and I have a thirst and hunger for the spiritual reality Baha'u'llah
offers me. In my soujourn in this realm I have found no other place to
satisfy that thirst and hunger.
>When Baha'is make extreme, exclusive claims for Baha'u'llah,
>I cannot help but wonder if this is just in-group rhetoric not
>designed for outsiders' ears (eyes). My pointing it out is not
>intended to badger you, but to let you "see yourselves as
>others see you." More inclusive rhetoric will lead more people
>to want to be included among your ranks.
I thank you for your comments and I will try to be more inclusive in my
statements. This is part of the education I need to acquire as I would be a
hermit if it was not for the Baha'i Faith's demands that I be a part of this
world --- trying as best as I can to improve the lot of all and work toward
the unity of the globe.
>Cheers
>Paul
Please forgive me for making this a very long post but I feel the need to
include a portion of an article I wrote over a year ago for the "Voice of
Western Colorado", the newsletter I edited when I lived there. It shows how
I got a *glimmer* of God and, as I see it, the truth, and converted into
thoughts of the Faith.
"One evening last spring I was sitting on a porch. As I gazed
into the sunset I was thinking of this wonderful Faith and our blessings for
being here and now in the scheme of things. I could imagine prehistoric man
sitting at the mouth of a cave looking into the same sunset and wondering
what night would bring, what dangers he would have to face, and the
uncertainty of his situation. As time passed and we became "civilized", God
sent the major Manifestations to guide us. But as with the sun, each
Manifestation would rise, grow into the blazing glory of the noonday sun,
set in the evening and leave us again in the night season of no direct
guidance. Here a man would sit on his doorstep and wonder what the Will of
God was. Thoughts and
ideas would be passed down through the generations but there was no firm
divine authority to guide humanity. Even with the beauty, power, and
authenticity of the Qur'an there was no authoritative guide to follow. But
today we are the luckiest people in the history of the world. We not only
have the beautiful and powerful verses of God that we can read and study
every day, we also have the inspired
interpretations of 'Abdu'l-Bah=E1 and Shoghi Effendi to follow and the
enlightened guidance of the Universal House of Justice to lead us. We are
the first humans in history that do not have to sit and look at the sunset
and wonder what the night will
bring because we live in the day that is not followed by night. This is
because of the Covenant!
"So, if we want to know what God wants us to do all we have to do
is read the verses of God and follow the guidance of the administrative
order. "It behooveth thee to consecrate thyself to the Will of God.
Whatsoever hath been revealed in His Tablets is but a reflection of His
Will." (Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, Gleanings p. 338)
For me there is no other reason to be living than to know and love God and
Baha'u'llah.
"Having created the world and all that liveth and moveth therein, He,
through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose
to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to
love Him - a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse
and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation. . . ." (
"Gleanings", page 65)
Thank you for your patience with this country boy.
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: Dialogue Magazine
To: s0a7254@tam2000.tamu.edu (Saman Ahmadi)
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 23:42:19 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
The story of the censorship of *Dialogue* magazine, together with
the sanctions temporarily placed on Steven Scholl (the editor) and others,
was posted several months ago on Talisman.
This led to some feelings that Talisman was perhaps too open in
its criticism of the institutions involved, and one dear friend, whose
every post I gain from, unsubscribed from Talisman, but now is back.
Recurring references to the Dialogue fiasco show that this was not
a cut-and-dried case, and that the reputation of the Faith was seriously
compromised by it. (The Dialogue affair was made known to academics by
Denis MacEoin).
Dialogue's editor, Steven Scholl, has not told the whole story.
There is an even darker side that has never been told. As a friend and
colleague, I personally advised Steve not to disclose these details.
Saman's recollection of events seems accurate enough. I would
simply like to point out that, whatever the House said about the US-NSA's
official position, what Steve was really accused of was *negative
electioneering* through an alleged *publication* of an article
submitted for review.
So I can't really reconcile NSA's charges with the Houses's
silence on them. But I have none of the documents on file and am not in a
position to comment further.
The article, *A Modest Proposal*, was never published. That's a
fact. It was circulated among a dozen or so readers. As Religion Editor, I
received a copy. I was sent a draft, not a publication.
I didn't sign. And I didn't care for the title. But those are not
grounds for sanction, IMO. Having personally received *A Modest Proposal*
when it was being privately circulated to select readers (I used to do the
same with my manuscripts), I can vouch for the fact that it wasn't
*published*.
How could it have been published when it was being processed under
Baha'i review? And what I really can never forgive is a believer being
blacklisted at a National Convention, without regard for individual
rights, and without due process or the enabling legislation for the kind
of due process that serves to protect the individual.
In fact, doesn't it seem odd that the compilation on *Individual
Rights* came out so soon after the Dialogue affair? I can't prove this,
but I believe that Steven Scholl was the sacrificial lamb (perhaps he was
part goat as well) that created an acute awareness of the need to protect
individual rights.
My faith in the divine guidance of NSAs and LSAs would be
strenthened exponentially if, in rare and extenuating circumstances, a
divine institution could admit that, in retrospect, a little more divine
guidance might have been desirable.
I might be wrong. I also live in the fear that even I could get
sanctioned for so open a post such as this. I've dedicated my life to the
Faith. It took me twenty-one years to finally write a book on the Faith,
something Ruhiyyih Khanum inspired me to do in St. Louis in 1974.
But, in being a Baha'i, sometimes I am torn between the authority
of institutions and my belief in fundamental Baha'i principles. Let me
give an illustration.
As Ahang recently pointed out, the Bab, at a certain point in His
ministry, ordered all Babis in possession of one of His major Tablets (I
forget which) to wash the ink off the pages of the Tablet.
The Babis were put to a severe test. They were caught in a double
approach-avoidance conflict. They were torn between their love for the Bab
and their love for the Revelation of God. The result was that many Babis
simply washed the ink off the first page of the Tablet, obeying the letter
of the Bab's decree, but preserving divine Revelation.
So I'm torn. I'm torn between principle and authority. Everything
the House said in its letter has some truth in it. I am not blind to the
sometimes adversarial relationship that existed between the parties
involved. But I submit that, if there is an argument between two Baha'is
or groups of Baha'is, perhaps--in principle--perhaps, as the Master has
said, both are ... I can't say it.
I am being very open in saying that this is an open wound with me.
And I am completely unscathed, innocent, uninvolved. But until there is
some kind of redress for the Dialogue affair, it will never go away in my
mind and heart. Perhaps this is somewhat akin to Ahang's feelings about
what happened to Fadil.
(I'm NOT drawing a parallel here except to say
that something can happen administratively that hurts us, yet we obey and
remain committed Baha'is. But the pain does not go away. I can only speak
for myself, and have no right to presume to speak on my dear friend
Ahang's behalf.)
*Dialogue* magazine was the Baha'i world's first free press. And
it wasn't all that free either, since all of its articles were first
submitted to Baha'i review. What is most disturbing to me is that all of
this happened DURING Baha'i review.
Hopefully, I have posted enough during the course of the past year
to have shown my true nature. I will leave it up to others to judge my
integrity as a Baha'i. Pray for me if I am blind to the truth. I love my
NSA in Canada. I respect the US-NSA. Words simply cannot express my
profound awe and respect for the Universal House of Justice. The Dialogue
affair is my test. Perhaps I am weak. Or perhaps I simply have the moral
courage to stand up for the Baha'i principles I believe in.
Love is a thin, red line. I am cut.
-- Christopher Buck
***********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 21:06 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: dancing (toupe two-step)
Linda, the True Seeker, said:
>We want truth here on Talisman, you two. And the two of you ganging up on me
>does not constitute "unity."
Burl, ever unific in wondrous ways, says:
And the truth is: two agreed is unity, one dissension -- single, alone,
and lovely -- is conflicted. I am so glad that you brought this up.
Referring to Secret of Divine Civilization, Abdul Baha notes that the work
of a thousand builders can be destroyed by one underminer. Now, although it
has been years since you've been a miner -- closer to a '49er -- this
obviously relates to youth in the Vanguard which, as I recall, was a
two-seater sports car briefly manufactured by Borgward of Germany before
they sold the company to Mexico so it could be the national auto.
>powerful pheremone Arabic grammer is!
I saw that for myself in SF when Juan conjugated an Arabic verb in public
and three between-flight stewardesses swooned away in the vestibule. He
finished them off with a virtuoso display of native African languages at
which time one young lovely dropped her flight bag and exclaimed "oh you do
that Urdo that you do so well!"
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 04:37:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca
Subject: hastening Lesser Peace
Chris,
I don't have REFER but have been reading way too much lately due to
Ahang's bad influence (thanks, Ahang), and have found a few quotes for
you. This might not be exactly what you were looking for but it's close:
"Now is the time to carry out, in the spirit and the letter, the fervent
wish so pathetically voiced by 'Abdu'l-Baha, Who longed, as attested in
the Tablets of the Divine Plan, to 'travel though on foot and in the
utmost poverty' and raise 'in cities, villages, mountains, deserts and
oceans' 'the call of Ya-Baha'u'l-Abha!'
"Then, and only then, can the members of this community hasten the
advent of the day when, as prophesied by His pen, 'heavenly illumination'
will 'stream' from their country 'to all the peoples of the world.'"
_Citadel of Faith_, pp. 131-132
A related statement is on p.142 of C of F, and other references (where
God and/or events are doing the hastening) are on pp.54-55 of C of F,
and p.29 and p.48 of _The World Order of Baha'u'llah_. There are
probably more, but I've been skimming fast and may have missed them.
Hope this helps.
Peace, Leigh
=END=
[end of 1/2/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/3/95
--------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:42:22 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: "A Modest Proposal" - Please Post It!
Dear Steven, David, Chris, Tony, Payam and others who were involved with the
Dialogue Affair--
Over the past year "A Modest Proposal" has been referred to quite a few
times but many of us here on Talisman haven't actually seen this
momentous -- or ominous, whatever your inclination is -- document.
Would it at all be possible to post it, or is there some kind of
outstanding official institutional ban on disclosing its contents?
I hope this doesn't sound presumptuous of me, but this humble servant says
let the faithful electorate (or list in our case) make up it's own mind
on "A Modest Proposal." If posting it on Talisman is going to prove too
politically explosive an issue, I'd still personally like to see it in
order to set my own mind at ease, so would sure appreciate it if someone
would be kind enough to send me a copy privately (snail or e-mail,
doesn't matter!).
Regrads,
Nima
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:28:15 EST
Subject: Secret of Divine Civilization
I vote on the question of posting Secret of Divine Civilization with
another suggestion. Collective study excellent idea. Modification:
Hopefully, everyone has a copy and a schedule for daily reading of it
can be posted in one message and discussion on the assigned daily
readings be generated by those wishing to participate. Count me in.
Thanks Robert.
love, learn, serve
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: "A Modest Proposal" - Please Post It!
To: sadra@rt66.com (Sadra)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 1:49:08 EST
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Nima--
Perhaps only Scholl could decide on this. Right now, I see his
mailbox has reached its limit. So he probably hasn't seen your request
because his Talisman messages are probably undeliverable now.
So far as I know, the one modest proposal that got him in trouble
was his proposal that there be a five-year term limit to consecutive years
in office. This was viewed by the NSA as *negative electioneering* (which
I had never heard of before).
One irony is this: I have heard that the Universal House of Justice
has actually implemented such a policy for one or two NSAs. (Can anyone
online verify this?)
The NSA of course has every right to object to such a proposal.
But didn't Steve have the right to propose it, to table it for discussion?
I might put forward a really stupid proposal. But should I get sanctioned
for it, especially when it has been duly submitted for review?
In all fairness, there is no spokesperson for the NSA online. I am
the first to concede that I do not have the full picture. I believe in the
moral (not necessarily propositional) infallibility of the Universal House
of Justice. I also believe that the NSA is divinely-guided.
But infallible/divine guidance is constrained by the facts. Our
institutions are, in a sense, limited by the accuracy of what is reported
to them. This is where due process can serve to protect the Institutions
as well as the individual. No Baha'i institution has omniscience-at-will.
Nor would any Baha'i institution knowingly make a *bad* decision.
If the individual Baha'i was guaranteed the entrenched right to
*face* the accusations made against him/her, this could forestall a
possibly peremptory decision.
As far as I know, the charges of *negative electioneering* were
dropped by the NSA. (I could be wrong on this, but I believe Steve was
never *convicted* of such a violation.) If this was the case, I would have
expected that the NSA might have made it known, in order to clear Steve's
name.
Since this is a *private* forum, as our esteemed listowner keeps
reminding us, I would invite a representative for the NSA to come online
(with Steve's permission of course). In such a situation, the integrity of
the House's actions would not be questioned, but only the integrity of the
information passed onto the House might be debated.
I know I'm going to get some private email advising me to cease
and desist. And I probably will. But Saman resurrected the issue again
(after I myself had alluded to it), and Nima requested that *A Modest
Proposal* be posted. So, this is my response.
It deeply hurts me to see so valuable a Baha'i human resource (like
Scholl) disposed of so summarily. Under a free press (which Scholl
started, acting on an encouraging statement by the Guardian), the NSA
could have dealt with Steve's proposal (which had not yet been published
anyway) in an open and fair fashion.
If I wrote something that an NSA disagreed with in print, I'd probably
either clarify my position, or else admit that, upon reflection, there
were some holes in my argument. The NSA then comes off looking all the
more wise, and yet I'm respectfully and logically reproved without being
denounced. And the entire readership benefits.
This is as far as I can go. I am woefully behind on my
dissertation. I've stuck my neck out as far as I can, on several
occasions. There is probably only one other NSA decision I've ever been
critical of (and I think it has since been reversed): a decision in the
late seventies or early eighties to stop inviting dignitaries to World
Religion day events, as the Baha'i Faith is the only *World Religion*. I
don't think this policy went very far, and, like I've said, I think it was
reversed.
The World Order of Baha'u'llah is in its embryonic stage. Juan
Cole may be one of its genes. Or maybe not. But how is the Faith to
evolve? Don't some of the ideas come from individuals? Let us judge Juan's
reforms on a case-by-case basis, each on its own merits, and then see if
it is possible to present just one idea proposal to the Universal House of
Justice, as a gift to a king.
I close by publicly (in a private mailgroup) promising to say
that I am wrong if someone can convince me that I am. Otherwise, I stand
on principle, and urge that a due process for protection of individual
rights be proposed, or the existing one be reevaluated, based on the
Dialogue affair as a test case. Except for this private forum, there may
not be a Baha'i free press again for at least the next century.
-- Christopher Buck
________________
Sadra writes:
>
> Dear Steven, David, Chris, Tony, Payam and others who were involved with the
> Dialogue Affair--
>
> Over the past year "A Modest Proposal" has been referred to quite a few
> times but many of us here on Talisman haven't actually seen this
> momentous -- or ominous, whatever your inclination is -- document.
> Would it at all be possible to post it, or is there some kind of
> outstanding official institutional ban on disclosing its contents?
>
> I hope this doesn't sound presumptuous of me, but this humble servant says
> let the faithful electorate (or list in our case) make up it's own mind
> on "A Modest Proposal." If posting it on Talisman is going to prove too
> politically explosive an issue, I'd still personally like to see it in
> order to set my own mind at ease, so would sure appreciate it if someone
> would be kind enough to send me a copy privately (snail or e-mail,
> doesn't matter!).
>
> Regrads,
> Nima
>
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 00:40:13 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 2
Talismans,
The SDC reading continues....
God with the power of mind (characterised to intellect and wisdom, which I
take to be science/arts and religious values respectively) enlightens the
world. Clearly indicated is great station of those who have developed
their minds,and used their skills for the advancement of humanity.
At this point, I simply intend to press on with the postings without much
concern for much extra. If anyone (Quanta) wishes to construct a study
programme, they should feel free to do so. In a brief private note John
has OKed the project . Another thing. I nabbed my copy off the web. I
don't know whether the formatting (esp. re. paragraphs) is right. I'll try
to sort this out for future readings.
Robert.
Sanctified is the Lord, Who with the dazzling rays of this strange,
heavenly power has made our world of darkness the envy of the worlds of
light: "And the +P2 earth shall shine with the light of her
Lord."(Qur'an 39:69.) Holy and exalted is He, Who has caused the
nature of man to be the dayspring of this boundless grace: "The God of
mercy hath taught the Qur'an, hath created man, hath taught him
articulate speech."(Qur'an 55:1-3.).
O ye that have minds to know! Raise up your suppliant hands to the heaven
of the one God, and humble yourselves and be lowly before Him, and thank
Him for this supreme endowment, and implore Him to succor us until, in
this present age, godlike impulses may radiate from the conscience of
mankind, and this divinely kindled fire which has been entrusted to the
human heart may never die away.
Consider carefully: all these highly varied phenomena, these concepts,
this knowledge, these technical procedures and philosophical systems,
these sciences, arts, industries and inventions--all are emanations of
the human mind. Whatever people has ventured deeper into this shoreless
sea, has come to excel the rest. The happiness and pride of a nation
consist in this, that it should shine out like the sun in the high heaven
of knowledge. "Shall they who have knowledge and they who have it not, be
treated alike?" (Qur'an 39:12) And the honor and distinction of the
individual consist in this, that he among all the world's multitudes
should become a source of social good. Is any larger bounty +P3
conceivable than this, that an individual, looking within himself, should
find that by the confirming grace of God he has become the cause of peace
and well-being, of happiness and advantage to his fellow men? No, by the
one true God, there is no greater bliss, no more complete delight.
How long shall we drift on the wings of passion and vain desire; how long
shall we spend our days like barbarians in the depths of ignorance and
abomination? God has given us eyes, that we may look about us at the
world, and lay hold of whatsoever will further civilization and the arts
of living. He has given us ears, that we may hear and profit by the
wisdom of scholars and philosophers and arise to promote and practice it.
Senses and faculties have been bestowed upon us, to be devoted to the
service of the general good; so that we, distinguished above all other
forms of life for perceptiveness and reason, should labor at all times and
along all lines, whether the occasion be great or small, ordinary or
extraordinary, until all mankind are safely gathered into the impregnable
stronghold of knowledge. We should continually be establishing new bases
for human happiness and creating and promoting new instrumentalities
toward +P4 this end. How excellent, how honorable is man if he arises
to fulfil his responsibilities; how wretched and contemptible, if he shuts
his eyes to the welfare of society and wastes his precious life in
pursuing his own selfish interests and personal advantages. Supreme
happiness is man's, and he beholds the signs of God in the world and in
the human soul, if he urges on the steed of high endeavor in the arena of
civilization and justice. "We will surely show them Our signs in the
world and within themselves." (Qur'an 41:53)
And this is man's uttermost wretchedness: that he should live inert,
apathetic, dull, involved only with his own base appetites. When he is
thus, he has his being in the deepest ignorance and savagery, sinking
lower than the brute beasts. "They are like the brutes: Yea, they go
more astray... For the vilest beasts in God's sight, are the deaf, the
dumb, who understand not."(Qur'an 7:178; 8:22.) We must now highly
resolve to arise and lay hold of all those instrumentalities that promote
the peace and well-being and happiness, the knowledge, culture and
industry, the dignity, value and station, of the entire human race. Thus,
through the restoring waters of pure intention and unselfish effort, the
earth of human potentialities will blossom with its own latent excellence
and flower into praiseworthy qualities, and bear and flourish until it
comes to rival that rosegarden of knowledge which belonged to our
forefathers. Then will this +P5 holy land of Persia become in every
sense the focal center of human perfections, reflecting as if in a mirror
the full panoply of world civilization.
=END=
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 96 13:31:46 MEZ-1
From: Noorbakhsh Monzavi
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Payvand (New Iranian Web Site)
************************* . ***************************
Payvand(SM) ]_ q_,_ (http://www.payvand.com)
************************* / :c ***************************
Iranian Directory
Business Listings
Individual Listings
Calendar of Events
More will follow as we get energy from you.
Currently, there are pages for the following countries:
Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, England, France, Germany,
Iran, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland,
United States
Please come and visit Payvand and list yourself if you would like to be
found by friends and foes. And if you don't find your country in the
listings, just send us a note and we will be glad to add it.
**************************************************************************
PAYVAND'S GOAL
Our goal is to offer a WWW service that connects the Iranians all over the
world. We hope our initial release is up to your expectation, and that you
will work with us to make Payvand your favorite site.
We are looking forward to your suggestions and comments!
PAYVAND'S IRANIAN DIRECTORY
Payvand's Iranian Directory provides a listing of Iranian entities
(individuals, businesses, organizations, etc) in various countries. There is
also a Calendar of Events section for posting upcoming events related to
Iran. The Iranian Directory offers the following features:
Post allows adding a new entry to the directory
Update allows updating the directory entries by the owners
Search allows searching the directory
Note: All entries are protected with password.
PAYVAND'S PRICES
* There is no charge for viewing the directory.
* There is no charge if you add your individual entry yourself.
* There is currently no charge if you add your businesses entry yourself.
* There is no charge if you add your event entry yourself.
* There is a $10.00 charge if you request that Payvand add an entry for
you. This fee is waived for Non-Profit, Public Service, and Art
related organizations.
**************************************************************************
Copyright 1995 NetNative
PO Box 391403, Mountain View, Ca. 94039-1403
staff@payvand.com
**************************************************************************
1) Payvand works best with Netscape navigator.
2) Payvand contains over 80 entries at this time. If you would like to
see these listings, please go to the global search page:
http://www.payvand.com/yp/search.html
and select Business or Individual listings, select All for country, and
press SUBMIT. This will do a "search for all" and print out all the
listings in the directory. You can also go to:
http://www.payvand.com/yp/search_cal.html
and press SUBMIT to do a global event search and find out what event are
currently listed.
=END=
From: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 23:12:01 +1100 (EST)
To: Juan R Cole
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Juan
I am determined my response will be brief tonight! I am however also
learning a lot from our exchange and I am looking forward to reading your
article when I can get my hands on it.
I wanted to address five issues you raised as follows:
Change in the Baha'i Community
--------------------------------------
Radical change of the sort you describe seems in the past to have been
associated with changes at the centre of the Faith i.e. the transitions
from Baha'u'llah, to Abdu'l Baha, to Shoghi Effendi etc.
I don't see much prospect for it happening again except in the event of
unforseen changes at the World Centre - this does not rule out change
altogether however. I believe there is considerable scope for evolutionary
change - more than adequate to meet the concerns you have identified. The
task seems to be to find ways of facilitating such evolutionary change.
Shoghi Effendi
-----------------
You seem concerned that undue attachment to the decisions of Shoghi Effendi
is holding the Faith back. I think an equal concern that must be weighed
in the balance is that abandoning Shoghi Effendi would open the potential
to dispose of many valuable administrative principles which he inculcated -
such as the right of criticism - the duty of the Assembly to consult and
keep the Community informed and many other protections he instituted. It
is in any case the kind of change that is outside the current Baha'i
paradigm - to ask this is like asking Bill Clinton to endorse world
government tomorrow - it is unrealistic and unachievable - and therefore
doesn't answer the needs of today. In the Baha'i Communty's case moreover
I think it is entirely unnecessary. A better approach is to refer to
Shoghi Effendi's guidance - as this often aims to ensure that abuses don't
occur. You might be aware of the case in US history where Shoghi Effendi
overruled the NSA when it tried to throw out one of its members (Lunt).
Baha'i Faith and Democracy
---------------------------------
I really think you haven't given enough thought to the questions I posed on
the relationship between the principle of democracy and other elements of
the Baha'i Faith. You seem to be putting the cart before the horse -
rather then being central to the Baha'i Faith I think democracy is but one
wheel on the cart - it has a different role and operates in a different way
than parliamentary democracy - this does not necessarily mean that the
Baha'i Faith is undemocratic - it has democratic features but it is not a
parliamentary democracy. For instance in the Kitab-i-Ahd Baha'u'llah quite
clearly states that
"Kings are the manifestations of the power, and the daysprings of the might
and riches of God. ... He hath invested them with the rulership of the
earth and hath singled out the hearts of men as His Own domain. ...
Contention and conflict are caegorically forbidden in His Book. "
These passages follow Baha'u'llah's assurance that Baha'u'llah has already
revealed the necessary principles for human well-being. The way I read
these passages is that they seem to abolish the democratic right of
revolution - even in the case of oppressive regimes. Baha'u'llah does not
seem to consider revolution to be a useful social tool.
You say,
>Baha'u'llah appears to have envisaged a world in which each individual
>country was a parliamentary democracy, and violence among them was
>prevented or moderated by a regime of collective security. Parliamentary
>democracies have launched far fewer wars of aggression than have other
>systems, so Baha'u'llah's vision here seems on the mark.
I think this statement glosses over important distinctions between
parliamentary democracy and Baha'u'llah's vision. For instance he calls on
Parliaments to enforce that which is the interests of humankind as a whole.
He insists that the earth is one country. This involves a fundamental
reform of parliamentary democracies which define themselves in terms of
separate nations and races - indeed the ideas of parliamentary democracy
and the nation-state are well-nigh inseparable. This difference has all
sorts of implications for the functioning of democracy. For instance what
happens to representative democracy when the forum is responsible not only
for the electors - but for the welfare of the whole world? This challenges
fundamental democratic assumptions about the responsibility of the
representatives to the electors. This requirement is also laid down as
applicable to Houses of Justice in the Aqdas.
"Liberty" - a key democratic value - is also dealt with in radically
different terms by Baha'u'llah, in the Aqdas (the mother book) - surely any
discussion of how the Baha'i Faith addresses democracy must deal with such
statements if it is to provide a complete picture:
"Consider the pettiness of men's minds. They ask for that which injuereth
them, and cast away the thing that profiteth them. ... We find some men
desiring liberty, and priding themselves therein. Such men are in the
depths of ignorance.
Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench.
Thus warneth you He Who is the Recknoner, the All-Knowing. Know ye that
the embodiment of liberty and its symbol is the animal. That which
beseemeth man is submission unto such restraints as will protect him from
his own ignorance and guard him against the harm of the mischief maker.
Liberty causeth man to overstep the bounds of propriety, and to infringe
upon the dignity of his station.
... Regard men as a flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their protection."
(Aqdas paras 122 - 124)
I am sure that there are many other distinctions both great and small - and
in the end I suspect it would be concluded that the two are different
beasts - despite what common features there may be. It gets back again to
Shoghi Effendi's point about comparisons of this nature - whether positive
or negative they don't tell the whole story about the Baha'i Faith.
Remedying Shortcomings and Abuses of the Administration
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Shoghi Effendi has assured us that Assembly's are not infallible so I have
no problem in saying that they may and have made mistakes. I just believe
a fundamentally different approach is required to remedying these problems
than the one's you suggest. To sum up, the approach I think is effective
is to identify constructive means enhancing the spiritual and
administrative maturity of the Community and its institutions. This is
exactly what the House asks us to do. This requires no doubt patience,
forebearance, wisdom, and yes on occasion sacrifice. Scholars no doubt
have a critical role to play in this process.
If I have not addressed all your points I hope others will.
Regards again
Michael
(curtotti@ozemail.com.au)
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 14:56:05 +0100 (MET)
Subject: mashriq endowments?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
John noted that the mosque complex was (is) an independent
instutition supported by an endowment. Which might have some
parallels for the Mashriq. I've been wondering about the
institutional relationship of the twin Houses, and have found one
passage in which the administrative institutions are included
among the institutions surrounding the Mashriq:
"The seat round which its spiritual, its humanitarian and
administrative activities will cluster are the
Mashriqu'l-Adhkar and its Dependencies. (World Order of
Baha'u'llah, pages 156-157)"
I have also been looking for passages which might indicate that
the Mashriq is under the control or supervision of the House of
Justice, but have not found any. This raises the question of
funding. I assume that there is no reason wby the boundaries of
the local house of justice and the 'catchment area' from which
people are drawn to worship in a house of worship should
coincide. So I also assume that the responsibility for erecting and
maintaing a house of worship falls primarily with those who
worship there. Does anyone have any idea how they administer
their mashriq? No doubt there are many possible patterns, and
one factor would be how the funds were raised in the first place.
An endowment from a wealthy benefactor might be coupled with
a hereditary custodianship, but the endowment could also have an
appointed trustee. Should 'learning in the (Baha'i) religious law'
be a criterion for such a trusteeship (I'm thinking of Shi`ih
models)? Would an appointment (rather than election) to a task
connected to the place of worship be too much like a clergy? Or
is that only a problem if the trustee also has a sacredotal
function?
Ideas please
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: SDC, reason, wisdom
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:07:07 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
R> This supreme emblem of God stands first in the order of creation
R>and first in rank, taking precedence over all created things. Witness to
R>it is the Holy Tradition, "Before all else, God created the mind." From
R>the dawn of creation, it was made to be revealed in the temple of man.
Robert and others -
Thanks, Robert, for taking the initiative to post _The Secret of
Divine Civilization_ here on Talisman.
Personally, I have always found the last two sentences of this
paragraph quite profound. To me, they point us to both the universal
Mind and the human mind. Generally speaking, mind, as I see it, has
three primary functions:
1. knowledge (both intellect and gnosis);
2. volition (will); and
3. action (the causative function of mind)
The universal Mind, IMV, is "the divine Appearance and heavenly
Splendor" - the realm of ProphetHOOD or Kingdom of divine Manifestation
(the higher nature of the Messengers). Here is how I see the application
or the above model to the three conditions of the universal Mind:
1. Divine knowledge as The Word of God (defined by `Abdu'l-Baha as
"the sumtotal of infinite meanings"), i.e., the knowledge of God;
2. divine volition as the (Primal) Will of God, i.e., the Covenant,
the love of God, divine Law or Order (the *ordering* principle of
existence), and Revelation; and
3. divine action as the Cause of God, i.e., God's causing of
creation and the divine Plan
The universal Mind is, like the human mind (discussed below), "made to
be revealed in the temple of man."
This human mind (possessed by us and by the Prophets - the Perfect
Men) includes, IMO, the following conditions:
1. Human knowledge (through the intellect - the mental faculties of
the human spirit, i.e, imagination, thought, comprehension and memory)
and spiritual knowledge (inner vision, insight, or intuition) are both
included. But the latter comes to us if the human spirit is assisted by
the spirit of faith (as limited by our twin capacities: the "innate
character" and "portion of grace"). In either case, the brain and the
nervous system (both central and autonomic), part of the soul's mortal
manifestation, are required to express this knowledge in the rational
and material worlds.
2. Human volition (free will) is the result of the reflection of
will power (one of the manifestations of the human spirit) in the brain
and nervous system. The result is the ability to choose between turning
to one's higher (soular) or lower (bodily) nature.
3. Human action is, IMHO, the coordination of bodily functions by
the mind. It is the expression of the mind's knowledge and volition,
through the brain and nervous system, into the the kingdom of names and
attributes (materiality). On the highest plane, action is servitude to
the knowledge (Word) and Will of God. But, first, our human knowledge
must gradually be transformed by the knowledge of God and our human
wills become the willing vehicles of the divine Will. If so, our
actions will, reaction by reaction, be a visible demonstration of the
Cause of God (the divine Plan or action).
Warm greetings to all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 09:44:31 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Kings
Juan may pre-empt me on the following, but for what it is worth, here is
some background on Baha'u'llah's view of kings, along with some thoughts
of my own:
1) We usually say that Baha'u'llah was a nobleman, but that is not really
true. He belonged to a class of hereditary bureaucrats that in Iran
dealt with administration, finance, and tax collection.
2) Baha'u'llah's father was a fairly high-ranking bureaucrat, holding
offices like chief tax collector for several small provinces at a time.
3) His father was a close friend of Qa'im-Maqam and an employee of the
Crown Prince, Abbas Mirza, the two leading Iranian government reformers
of the early 19th century. All three came to unfortunate ends. Abbas
Mirza, being prince of Azerbaijan and with no one to check his impluses,
drank himself to death before he could assume the throne. As a result,
the reforms he pioneered went nowhere. Qa'im-Maqam was the first prime
minister of Muhammad Shah and was soon executed for his attempts to guide
the young new king. (Baha'u'llah later saw the same thing happen to the
next major Iranian reformer, Mirza Taqi Khan, the first prime minister of
Nasir al-Din Shah.) Baha'u'llah's father spent the last few years of his
life tangled in lawsuits resulting from his unfortunate marriage to and
divorce from a powerful princess. Baha'u'llah began his adulthood trying
to hold the family together while his father was, in effect, in debtors'
prison.
4) Baha'u'llah was also treated unjustly by the Ottoman sultan, who
granted him protection and then imprisoned him without trial or any
obvious offence.
5) As a result, Baha'u'llah knew a lot about kings, having known at least
two personally and suffered under the vagaries of several other kings and
princes. He had a well-informed dislike of monarchs.
6) Baha'u'llah has therefore two attitudes towards kings:
a) If he is addressing a king, he tells him how to be a good
king. The best known examples are the letters to the kings. (Remember
that until the early 20th century most thoughtful people in Europe
considered some sort of monarchy to be the best system, especially if the
king was contentious and able.)
b) If he is talking about how things *ought* to be, he is in
favor of some sort of democratic system--a parliamentary constitutional
monarchy is clearly one possible system.
7) "Liberty" should be understood in the 19th century sense of "license"
and "anarachy." If you said "liberty" (or "hurriyah") in the 19th
century, people--Baha'u'llah included--thought of the French Revolution.
It left the same sort of bad taste in people's mouth as "imperialism"
does now--a concept whose theoretical merits were overshadowed by recent
abuses.
8) As for Shoghi Effendi, most of his political writings were done in the
1930s and were shaped by the political circumstances of those times,
which were, for those who may have been dozing in high school history class:
a) The democracies were on the ropes, as the defeated monarchists
of the World War I period and the revolutionary socialists of various
stripes had predicted they would be. They were divided, mired in
depression, and showed no signs of recovery. (In fact, only WWII rescued
their economies and morale, and Britain and France have never entirely
recovered.)
b) Careful and thoughtful readers of the newspapers, as Shoghi
Effendi was, would have already seen that Communism was a bloody hell.
c) Both Communism and democracy were destructive of religion and morality.
d) Fascism had not yet shown its teeth and had some real
successes under its belt: the modernization of Iran and Turkey; the
economic and political recoveries in Italy and Germany. Granted, there
were abuses, such as the persecution of Jews in Germany, but the worst
had not yet happened. Many intelligent people in Europe and America
(Lindberg for example) thought that a couple of generations of
authoritarian rule might be the only way out.
9) What conclusion might one have drawn at that time?
a) Some kind of more authoritarian regime was the only reasonable
hope for the reestablishment of the sort of civilized and stable order
that had existed prior to WWI.
b) A purely democratic regime was not politically or socially
viable under current conditions.
c) In other words, the classical political thinkers were right:
democracy was not a viable system.
10) I suspect that the current model of Baha'i organization is modeled on
the Communist system of revolutionary cells, five year plans, and
centrally directed cadres. Shoghi Effendi knew the system both from
newspapers and his college studies. It is an extremely efficient system
for maximizing the effectiveness of small groups of committed people.
Personally, I think that we have outgrown it, but we no longer have a
guardian to explain why to us.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 96 16:04:07 MEZ-1
From: Noorbakhsh Monzavi
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: truth and unity
Talismans,
The phrase that was quoted from Hossein Danesh, was a one that
in my personal view is a good one, taking the argument into account.
It was by no means meant to be used as
>"big guns" pulled out as a means of silencing others.
So let it be no hard feelings at all, please.
Regards,
Noorbakhsh.
PS.
I don't have any references to the article
"Constructive Criticism is Destructive"
at present time, but if i find it, will write it.
I have not read/seen the article. What happened is that I was listening
to some tapes from Danesh. In one of his talks he mentioned the phrase
and said that he has written an article by this name.
So I find the phrase interesting ...and write it to Talisman.
His talks have actually been given in an intensive course on the
subject of "marriage" in the summer school in Ireland, 1984.
Noorbakhsh.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 09:43:36 PST
Subject: RE: "A Modest Proposal" - Please Post It!
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, Sadra
On Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:42:22 -0700 (MST) Sadra wrote:
"A Modest Proposal" has been referred to quite a few
>times
....
>Would it at all be possible to post it,?
....
If posting it on Talisman is going to prove too
>politically explosive an issue, I'd still personally like to see it
in
>order to set my own mind at ease, so would sure appreciate it if
someone
>would be kind enough to send me a copy privately (snail or e-mail,
>doesn't matter!).
Me too.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/03/96
Time: 09:43:36
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Shortening the Duration of War
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 13:55:37 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
With the age that is still unborn, with its herculean tasks and
unsuspected glories, we need not concern ourselves at present. It is to
the fierce struggle, the imperious duties, the distinctive contributions
which the present generation of Baha'is are summoned to undertake and
render that I feel we should, at this hour, direct our immediate and anxious
attention.
Though powerless to avert the impending contest the followers of
Baha'u'llah can, by the spirit they evince and the efforts they exert help
to circumscribe its range, shorten its duration, allay its hardships,
proclaim its salutary consequences, and demonstrate its necessary and vital
role in the shaping of human destiny.
Shoghi Effendi, July 28, 1939
Citadel of Faith
________________
NOTE
While I still have not found the passage that states that Baha'is may
*hasten the Lesser Peace* (thanks for all of the REFER searches, Jim and
Doug!), I did find one that suggests that Baha'is may *shorten the
duration* of war.
The above statement seems also to indicate that it may be
counterproductive to focus now on the Most Great Peace. We must focus on
the Great Peace (= Lesser Peace), one that has a pluralistic and
democratic agenda. Both the Most Great Peace and the Lesser Peace, BTW,
ought to have free presses, human rights, and so forth, according to the
Writings. So should we.
Now, in Article 10 of the *Universal Declaration of Human Rights*,
which the Baha'i Faith officially supports, we find the following right
enshrined:
*Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public
hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of
his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.*
Furthermore, Article 12 stipulates:
*No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his
privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour
and reputation. Everyone has the right to protection of the law against
such interference or attacks.*
[Source: Office of Public Information, *The International Bill of
Human Rights: XXX United Nations* (United Nations, 1978): p. 6.]
Was Steven Scholl accorded these fundamental human rights, which
the Baha'i International Community helped to shape and which the Baha'i
Faith and the entire free world supports?
Or do human rights not apply in Baha'i Administration? I, for one,
support a *Dialogue* with the Administration on a Baha'i bill of rights,
along the lines Juan Cole has already proposed.
I trust I am doing nothing wrong here in putting forth a positive
proposal, using the Dialogue affair as a test case. Someone correct me if
I'm wrong. I am a Baha'i in good standing, and I am loyal to the Covenant.
This is my way of showing it, because I firmly believe that the Baha'i
Faith ought to be a *pattern for future society* in every respect.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 13:52:39 +0000 (MULTINET_TIMEZONE)
From: maeissin@ichange.com (Michael Eissinger)
Subject: Surgery
To: talisman@indiana.edu, rmichaelwilkinson@1025.ichange.com,
betty@netwest.com, ph289jk@prism.gatech.edu, Gata@INCPRD.ICHANGE.COM,
razizi@ucla.edu, Bahai-Discuss@BCCA.Org
I will be going into the UCLA Medical Center tomorrow for back surgery,
I should be home, albeit flat on my back for a couple of weeks, by
Sunday. I'll be having a Microdiskectomy (laminectomy) which is supposed
to correct the long-standing problems with my back and legs. Hopefully,
within the next few months of therapy and rehab, I'm supposed to be as
good as new (whatever that means).
This should help my disposition and make life much more comfortable.
I've been off from work, at the University, since August and am looking
forward to getting back to my office sometime around the end of March or
the first part of April.
If you think of it, and are so inclined, any prayers, tomorrow, will be
appreciated.
I'll have my wife pick up my e-mail during my bed confinement, so I'll
try to keep on top of things, as much as possible. Hopefully, after I
can get up and sit more than short stretches I I'll get back into the
swing of things.
Michael Eissinger
Los Angeles
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:54:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Reuters 1/3/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/03
> 1. 13:32 KURDISH REBELS SAY IRAN KILLS FIVE MEMBERS IN IRAQ
> 2. 12:38 ADDICTS, TRAFFICKERS, THIEVES FILL IRAN'S PRISONS
> 3. 10:40 IRAN PRICE COURTS RULE ON 280,000 CASES IN YEAR
>Transmission date: 96/01/02
> 4. 15:07 IRAN DISCUSSING DEAL TO BUY, BUILD RUSSIAN PLANES
>
>=START= XMT: 13:32 Wed Jan 03 EXP: :00 Sat Jan 06
>
>
> Kurdish rebels say Iran kills five members in Iraq
> NICOSIA, Jan 3 (Reuter) - An Iranian rebel Kurdish group on Wednesday
>accused Iran of killing five of its members and two other Kurds in northern
>Iraq in the past week.
> The Democratic Party of Iranian Kurdistan, in a fax sent to Reuters from
>its Paris office, gave the names of seven men it said were killed in a mine
>explosion last Wednesday, and two armed attacks by Iranian ``terrorists'' on
>Saturday and Monday.
> It said five of those killed were its members and the other two were
>Iranian Kurdish refugees.
> It accused Tehran of ordering the raids before sending a team to
>Kurdish-run north Iraq earlier this week to mediate between rival Iraqi Kurdish
>groups.
> There was no independent confirmation of the incidents.
> Kurdish rebels have waged a low-intensity guerrilla struggle against the
>Islamic government in Tehran since they were largely driven into Iraq by the
>army and the Revolutionary Guards after major offensives in the early 1980s.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:38 Wed Jan 03 EXP: :00 Sat Jan 06
>
>
> Addicts, traffickers, thieves fill Iran's prisons
> TEHRAN, Jan 3 (Reuter) - Drug smugglers, addicts and thieves -- 70,000 of
>them -- are crowding Iranian prisons and creating chronic shortages of space,
>an Iranian official said on Wednesday.
> Assadollah Lajevardi, the official in charge of Iran's prisons, said on
>Wednesday that 70 percent of Iran's total 100,000 civilian inmates were
>convicted of drug trafficking, drug addiction or theft and that lack of space
>was a major problems, the Iranian news agency reported.
> The figures apparently did not include prisoners convicted by military
>courts or by special courts dealing with violations by Islamic clerics.
> IRNA said police in three Iranian provinces seized a total of 1.5 tonnes of
>drugs in the past few days.
> Iran has an estimated one million addicts and lies on a key transit route
>used by traffickers taking mainly opium and heroin to Europe via Turkey from
>Afghanistan and Pakistan.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:40 Wed Jan 03 EXP: :00 Sat Jan 06
>
>
> Iran price courts rule on 280,000 cases in year
> By Sharif Imam-Jomeh
> TEHRAN, Jan 3 (Reuter) - Special Iranian courts enforcing state prices have
>issued 280,000 rulings in a year to fight profiteering and hoarding, Tehran
>radio said on Wednesday.
> It quoted Justice Minister Esmail Shoushtari as saying the courts, set up
>in October 1994 to counter sharp price rises, imposed fines totalling 32
>billion rials ($10.7 million at the official exchange rate).
> He did not give the number of guilty rulings, but said the 280,000 cases
>were among 323,000 cases before the courts.
> President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, quoted by newspapers on Wednesday,
>urged the courts to ``deal resolutely with violators that cause high prices and
>popular dissatisfaction.''
> The courts were part of a campaign launched after price rises, including
>those of items controlled by the government, triggered a flood of complaints in
>the press and parliament.
> In April, about 16 people were killed and hundreds arrested in riots over
>price rises in a Tehran working-class suburb.
> Shoushtari said potatoes were added to the list of over 350 items subject
>to price controls and officials had ``uncovered many potato warehouses and
>severely dealt with hoarders.''
> Courts in the past have ordered some major offenders to be flogged.
> The government warned traders late last month that anyone stocking more
>than 10 tonnes of potatoes could face hoarding charges after prices doubled to
>1,600 rials in a few weeks.
> Profiteering and the use of short weights by traders made up the bulk of
>the courts' convictions, Shoushtari said.
> When they were set up, Shoushtari warned that violators could be judged
>under Islamic laws which can result in the execution of those convicted.
> But no executions have been ordered and in May parliament rejected a bill
>that would have imposed the death penalty for profiteers.
> But some newspapers have dismissed the courts' action as ineffective,
>causing a growing black market.
> ``Most traders say before these arrests the consumer easily bought his
>needed goods but now he must pay higher...prices than before the controls and
>in addition he must run around, beg and know (the shopkeepers),'' the daily
>Abrar said on Wednesday.
> Newspapers have complained about high prices and shortages of items ranging
>from butter to lamp bulbs and tyres.
> Residents said some of these goods were available at controlled prices for
>those willing to stand in long queues.
> ``I waited in line for two hours at a state store just to buy my quota of
>three bulbs for 1,200 rials each instead of 3,500 rials at a private shop,'' a
>retired professor said.
> An economist said prices were rising ahead of expected jumps in rates of
>state-run services and utilities in the new Iranian year that starts on March
>20.
> Official statistics put annual inflation at about 53 percent but press
>reports said some basic consumer goods have doubled in price in a matter of
>months.
> ($1-3,000 rials)
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 15:07 Tue Jan 02 EXP: :00 Fri Jan 05
>
>
> Iran discussing deal to buy, build Russian planes
> NICOSIA, Jan 2 (Reuter) - Iran is negotiating with Russia to buy 12 Tupolev
>airliners and to set up a plant to build other planes to replace its ageing
>passenger fleet, an Iranian newspaper said on Tuesday.
> The daily Iran News quoted Mehdi Safari, Iranian ambassador to Russia, as
>saying the deal to buy 12 Tupolev-154 planes would be signed soon.
> ``Negotiations for the production of Ilyushin-114 are at the final stage
>and production will start within a year,'' Safari also told Iran News, quoted
>by the Iranian news agency IRNA.
> The production plant will be located in Isphahan in central Iran, he added.
> Iran's debt to Russia will increase to $1.2 billion from the present $500
>million after the deals and Tehran has agreed to repay it in full by 1999 at
>the rate of $250 million a year, Safari said.
> He did not mention a $800 million contract for Russia to rebuild Iran's
>Bushehr nuclear powerplant.
> Iran's flag carrier Iran Air has 31 aircraft, mostly Boeings of various
>types bought before the 1979 Islamic revolution.
> The country has not been able to renew its fleet with more than a few
>wide-bodied Western planes because of opposition from the United States.
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 21:03:02 +0100 (MET)
Subject: 4-year plans
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: secretariat@bwc.org
to: Talisman discussion group
copy (for your information): Universal House of Justice
re: Universal House of Justice message of 31 Dec. 95
I found the message very disappointing. The House seems
to be postponing any qualitative change or broadening of
the community until the year 2000. The Plan is to do more
of the same but harder, placing more demands on - and
making more useful and constructive roles for - teachers
and administrators. There is nothing here which would
foster the development of new aspects of the community
life, which would create room and roles for people whose
interests are in worship, in scholarship, or in charitable
services. There is also no clue as to where the extra energy
is to come from: the community is a vehicle which is
becoming larger and heavier every year, and which is now
grossly underpowered, with an engine modelled in the
1930s. The new driving power it needs can be obtained by
developing some of the major facets of the Faith which are
largely under-developed: the 'house of worship' (as a
metaphor for the spiritual life, at both individual and
community levels), the intellectual life of the community,
and our engagement in the wider concerns of society. A
religious community which consists largely of its own
administration is a 1-cylinder motor: it can use the energies
only of those people who find committees, teaching plans and
reports the very staff of life.
However ... the fact that the House is not planning for
substantial developments does not mean they won't happen.
That, after all, is up to us, because change happens, if at all,
at the local and individual level. So: A Toast to 2000!
The earth will be a garden
and you will walk in ways
and long bright days
beyond imagining...
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:59:39 PST8PDT
Subject: Universal House of Justice 21 June 1989, Modest Proposal
REPOST FOR NEW FOLKS
:
: Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 13:51:39 -0500 (CDT)
: From: Saman Ahmadi
: To: "Eric D. Pierce"
: Subject: Letter from the House to an individual
:
: Hi again Eric,
:
: This was posted during an earlier round of heated
: discussions.
:
: take care,
: sAmAn
:
: **************************************************************
:
: Department of the Secretariat 21 June 1989
:
: [to an individual Baha'i]
:
:
: Dear Baha'i Friend,
:
: The Universal House of Justice has received your letter
: of 3 April 1989, and had also received from Mr. [a member of
: House] a copy of your letter to him dated 3 January 1989 which
: treats of the same subject although from a more personal point of
: view. The House of Justice welcomes and wish, expressed at the
: end of the second paragraph of your letter of 3 April, to resolve
: the problems which have been besetting your relationship with the
: National Spiritual Assembly of the United States in a genuine
: spirit of love and reconciliations. It has asked us to send you
: the following reply.
:
: It is important for the editors of "dialogue" to
: recognize that source of difficulties does not lie primarily in
: specifics of the proposed publication of "A Modest Proposal".
: This incident was merely the latest episode in a history of
: problems going back some twelve years, originating with the study
: groups in Los Angeles and its promotion of the wide circulation
: of the records of its discussions, continuing through some of the
: publications of Kalimat Press, and being developed through
: certain of the articles appearing in "dialogue".
:
: It is clear that many different individuals were involved
: over the years in the study group, Kalimat Press and "dialogue".
: However, certain believers have been prominently associated with
: all three and form a connecting link in the minds of many of the
: friends.
:
: It is also clear that the views expressed by participants
: in the study group, in the books published by Kalimat Press, and
: in the articles in "dialogue" have covered a wide spectrum. But
: three characteristics have continually recurred and it is these
: that have caused the grave concerns that has existed in the
: hearts and minds of many of the friends. These three
: characteristics are as follows:
:
: 1. A destructively critical attitude toward many aspects of the
: Baha'i community and its institutions, voiced often in highly
: intemperate language.
:
: 2. An apparent wish to expose and publish widely whatever
: shortcomings that Baha'i community or prominent individual
: Baha'is may have had.
:
: 3. A clear attempt to create a constituency of like-minded
: persons to bring pressure to bear on the institutions of the
: Faith to make changes in the policies and practices of the Baha'i
: community.
:
: If one reads the above characteristics dispassionately
: one can easily recognize that they are accepted methods of
: political life in western democracies. It is perhaps not
: surprising, therefore, that many of those involved have failed to
: recognize that they are methods which are not in harmony with the
: spirit and principles of the Baha'i Faith. A thoughtful study of
: the letter of 29 December 1988 written by the Universal House of
: Justice will make the Baha'i attitude clear.
:
: Ideas can be both constructive and destructive. There is
: nothing wrong in principle with expressing one's ideas and trying
: to convince others of their rightness. This is what Baha'is do
: in relation to the rest of mankind. Since our aim is to
: establish unity we strive to teach the Faith in a way that will
: emphasize the constructive effect and minimize the disruptive.
: We recognize nevertheless that, in spite of all our efforts,
: opposition will be aroused, the Faith will be bitterly assaulted
: and criticized, mankind will be divided between those who accept
: the Revelation and those who reject it. Because of this we try
: to be forbearing and to react to slander with patience. But this
: is, after all, the Day of Judgement.
:
: The injection of new ideas into any society inevitably
: causes a ferment. If the structure of the society itself is
: designed to take advantage of such ideas in a way that will not
: disrupt its functioning and that enables it to absorb the
: positive ones and discard or modify those that are harmful, it
: can benefit immensely from the process.
:
: In the Baha'i community methods and mechanisms are
: provided within the Administrative Order to elicit and make the
: best use of the ideas and hopes of individual believers in ways
: that enrich the pattern of Baha'i life without disrupting the
: community. There may be many occasions on which individuals
: believers are permitted or even encouraged by their Assembly to
: promote their ideas, but independent attempts by individual
: Baha'is to canvass support for their views among their fellow
: believers are destructive of the unity of the Cause. To attempt,
: in opposition to the institutions of the Faith, to form
: constituencies for certain proposals and programmes may not
: necessarily lead to Covenant-breaking, but it is a societal
: factor for disruption against which the Covenant is designed to
: protect the Faith. It is the process by which parties are formed
: and by which a religion is riven into contending sects.
:
: Thus, in the case of "A Modest Proposal" it was not the
: questions that were raised or the proposals put forward that were
: primarily at fault, but rather the implicit manner in which it
: was proposed to accomplish change in the community.
:
: It is an elementary Baha'i principle that the
: institutions of the Faith are there to resolve differences and
: maintain unity, and that Assemblies are to be obeyed
: whole-heartedly, even if we feel their decisions to be wrong. It
: is surprising, therefore, that a decade of adverse reactions from
: the United States National Spiritual Assembly, and even from the
: Universal House of Justice, has not sufficed to cause you to
: suspect that there might be something seriously wrong in your
: approach. Instead, you seem to assume that all is due to
: machinations of certain individuals in positions of
: responsibility.
:
: One can only deduce that you do not register the
: significance of what you are saying. An example of this is your
: letter of 26 April 1988. This was not, as you describe it, just
: a "rather strong letter" "note meant to be offensive or
: disrespectful". Already in the second paragraph you indirectly
: accuse the Universal House of Justice of arriving at an erroneous
: and unjust conclusion by failing to acquaint itself with the
: facts. In paragraph 2 on page 2 you state "Since the article was
: a group effort, I offered the outside readers the opportunity to
: join as co-signers", without seeming to realize that this changes
: the circulation from an attempt "to elicit critical feedback for
: improving it" into an effort to raise a petition. The letter as
: a whole is largely an attack on what you perceive to be the
: failure and injustices of the National Spiritual Assembly without
: any indication of an awareness that there may have been faults on
: you side; indeed, to the contrary, you say "we knew we had done
: nothing wrong" and characterize yourselves as "Baha'is who are
: innocent of any wrongdoing".
:
: You yourself indicate that root of the problem towards
: the close of your letter of 26 April 1988. At the foot of page
: 11 and the tope of page 12, your write:
:
: For Baha'is of my generation, we became believers during
: the exciting and turbulent Vietnam war years because we
: saw that Baha'u'llah offers humanity the clearest
: direction for our inner spiritual growth and our work for
: saving the planet. Most of my Baha'i friends of my youth
: have left the Faith. Not because they lost faith in
: Baha'u'llah or the teachings, but because they were not
: allowed to express their ideals and activism as Baha'is.
: And today, over and over again, I hear from friends who
: are quietly leaving the Faith to pursue their ideals in
: the peace movement, in the women's movement, in the field
: of ecology, in music and dance, in religious discipline,
: because they are not allowed to express their commitment
: to social change, artistic expression, or a mystical path
: within a Baha'i context.
:
: It is not unusual for people to be drawn to the Faith
: because they see in it the fulfilment of the ideals which are
: dear to their hearts. But, if a soul truly recognizes
: Baha'u'llah, and his understanding of the teachings deepens, he
: will gradually see how his own ideals are but facets in the
: all-embracing Purpose of God, and will be willing to endure all
: manner of suffering and frustration for the sake of the
: fulfilment of that divine Purpose If, however, the believer
: allows his own ideals and purposes to retain their pre-eminence
: in his thinking, and he finds he cannot pursue them as he wishes,
: it may result in his leaving the Faith to pursue them in other
: ways. This is what would seem to have happened to the friends
: you speak of.
:
: You continue in the next paragraph:
:
: These are among the reasons we continue to work for
: change in the Baha'i community through every legitimate
: venue, we started "dialogue" because of the great need
: for an independent forum to discuss new ideas.
:
: This implies that, rather than leaving the Faith when you
: met with the same problems as troubled your friends, you decided
: to remain in the Faith but to change it to be more in accordance
: with your purposes; that you found you were unable to do this
: through the normal channels of Baha'i consultation and the
: Administrative Order; and so decided to do so by promoting them
: through a publication. What was the forum to be independent from
: if not from the Baha'i Administration? Is it really surprising
: that some friends should have surmised that you were "attempting
: to create an alternative to the Baha'i administration" or
: interpreted your activities as "conspiratorial, contentious and
: divisive"?
:
: With the process going on for so long, with a situation
: which caused a representative of the "Voice of America" and
: others to refer to a "dissident group" in California, with the
: obvious evidences of contention arising within the community, it
: is no wonder that some friends have suspected, in light of the
: persistent following of one course of provocative action, that,
: although some persons involved may be merely ignorant or
: misguided, there is evidence of an underlying destructive
: intention at the heart. You yourself are aware of such
: suspicions, but instead of considering how your actions could
: have given rise to them, you describe them as calumny and
: denigration.
:
: So far we have highlighted two aspects which lie at the
: root of the problem: the un-Baha'i marshalling of a group
: working to bring pressure on the institutions of the Cause, and
: the intemperate criticism employed. Beyond them, however, are
: elements which have aggravated the situation and fanned the spark
: of unease which has been ignited in the hearts of many of your
: fellow believers. These are well illustrated by certain aspects
: of the two articles you enclosed with your letter of 3 January
: 1989 to Mr. [a member of the House]:
:
: - Review of "Baha'ism", Denis MacEoin, in "A Handbook of
: Living Religions", Penguin Books, Harmondsworth, England, 1985,
: pp.475-98
:
: - "Baha'is coming to Terms with AIDS"
:
: These were referred by the Universal House of Justice to an ad
: hoc committee, which prepared the following comments.
:
: The first is a review of Denis MacEoin's article
: "Baha'ism" in "A Handbook of Living Religions".
: Unfortunately the academic position that Dr. MacEoin has
: gained has obscured the extraordinarily unscholarly and
: distorted nature of some of his writings on the Faith.
: He tries to portray himself as the pre-eminent non-Baha'i
: authority on the Faith, and a Baha'i publisher does a
: disservice to the Faith by giving credence to this claim.
:
: The trouble with this review, however, is primarily
: that the author uses the indirect form of a review, and
: the words of Dr. MacEoin himself, to attack what he
: conceives to be current condition of the Baha'i community
: as "the replication of certain disturbing features too
: readily observable in other religious institutions and
: communities", suffering from authoritarianism and a lack
: of openness and impartiality. The very use of the word
: "glasnost" has connotations which go far beyond the
: written word.
:
: This cloaking of profound and unjustified public
: criticism of the Faith in an ostensibly objective form is
: a cause for suspicion of the intentions of the writer.
: Among the many good articles that have appeared in
: "dialogue", there have been too many others that display
: this flaw.
:
: The article about AIDS is very different. In
: general it is an excellent, thought-provoking article
: about a world-wide problem of the gravest danger. There
: points, however, need to be considered.
:
: The first might be misunderstood by individual
: believers. This is the author's in the section "Becoming
: a positive agent for a moral solution" that "Shoghi
: Effendi specifically encourages Baha'is to be at the
: forefront of progressive movements". The actual words of
: the Guardian are:
:
: It should also be borne in mind that the machinery
: of the Cause has been so fashioned, that whatever is
: deemed necessary to incorporate into it is order to
: keep it in the forefront of all progressive
: movements, can according to the provisions made by
: Baha'u'llah, be safely embodied therein. ("The
: World Order of Baha'u'llah, pp.22-23)
:
: This is not quite the same as the implications of the
: article.
:
: The second and third problems come near the end of
: the article under the personal measures that individual
: Baha'is are recommended to take, namely:
:
: Reexamining our puritanical attitude toward sex,
: thereby strengthening our belief in a positive,
: frank approach to the subject.
:
: As part of reexamining our attitude towards
: homosexuals, we may gain new insights into the
: principle of the equality of the sexes. Rather than
: viewing feminine and masculine qualities as black
: and white, we will come to see them on a continuum
: of various shades of gray.
:
: The problem arise from the author's failure to
: distinguish clearly between the BAHA'I attitude to these
: problems, and the various inadequate attitudes that
: individual Baha'is may have. The impression given to a
: reader can be that the Baha'i teachings on sex and
: homosexuality are puritanical and need rethinking. It
: does not draw the vital distinction between the high
: standard that Baha'is must uphold in relation to
: themselves and the forbearance they must show towards
: others. In this connection there is a very important
: passage in the Lawh-i-Maqsud ("Tablets of Baha'u'llah",
: pp.169-70):
:
: And likewise He saith: The heaven of true
: understanding shineth resplendent with the light of
: two luminaries: tolerance and righteousness.
:
: O My friend! Vast oceans lie enshrined within
: this brief saying. Blessed are they who appreciate
: its value, drink deep therefrom and grasp its
: meaning, and woe betide the heedless....
:
: It is the hope of the Universal House of Justice that
: the comments in this letter help you and other friends
: responsible for the publication of "dialogue" to appreciate the
: reasons behind vigorous reaction of both the National Spiritual
: Assembly of the United States and the Universal House of Justice
: to the proposed publication of "A Modest Proposal", and will give
: you clear grounds on which you can revise your policies and
: overcome the problems which have impeded your desire to serve the
: Faith over so many years.
:
:
: With loving Baha'i greetings,
:
: For Department of the Secretariat
:
:
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 15:18:37 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: truth and unity?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear friends, I hope that you all realize what has transpired here on Talisman
today. Burl and I discovered a truth and we have - Burl and I, that is -
become unified. We both, independently, discovered the overwhelming effect
that good Arabic grammar has on women. John has Shi'ite women chasing him all
over Washington and Juan has stewardesses swooning over him on airplanes. Both
gentlemen, of course, have impeccable Arabic grammar. This is a perfect case
of truth being the basis of unity and not the other way around. Burl and I did
not agree to be unified and then say that we would agree about the remarkable
Arabic grammar phenomenon. No, it was the truth about the Arabic grammar that
unified us.
Now, you might not think this is much. But let us consider the abuse that I
have taken from Burl over the past several months. A lesser person than I
might have disregarded this truth because it came from someone so - well,
Burlish. I might have discarded the message with the messenger. However, I
did not do so. Instead, I transcended all previous feelings (and I won't go
into just what those feelings are but most of them start with the letter "r")
and received the message with an open mind and heart. Certainly this should be
a lesson to all. Don't you think, Derek? How about it, Robert? Linda
=END=
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 96 13:17:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: corrections
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
One of the benefits of Talisman is that through our exchanges at times
better information emerges and the truth is discovered. I have just
learned from a very knowledgeable person close to the events
associated with Zuhuru'l-Haqq volumes (who is not on Talisman) that
two pieces of information I shared earlier were inaccurate. I am
grateful for this correction which I post herewith.
Incidentally, it was also pointed out to me that the entire theme of
this year's Persian Arts and Culture Conference (Wilmette, May 96)
will be on Fadil-i Mazandarani and not just one of the sessions as I'd
mentioned earlier. During the time of conference my family and I will
be paying our homage at the Holy Shrines, and for my part, I certainly
will remember Fadil in my thoughts and also pray for the success of
the Conference. However, allow me to express my profoundest gratitude
as an admirer of Jinab-i Fadil to the committee responsible for
organizing the annual Friends of Persian Arts and Culture Conference
for their splendid choice of this year's theme. May the spirit of
Fadil grow ever closer to its Source and may his memory remain ever
brilliant.
One of the friends close to the events surrounding Zuhuru'l-Haqq wrote in a
private email and with permission I quote a portion of it:
However two points from what I heard need to be corrected.
1. Jinab-i-Fazil was not selected by the NSA to undertake the
project. In accordance with the written instruction of the Guardian,
the NSA had appointed a Baha'i History Committee to prepare the
history of the Faith, particularly the history of the Faith in Iran.
Jinab-i-Fazil was a member of the NSA. He was the most learned and the
most qualified person to be the representative of the NSA and serve as
a senior member of that committee. The Guardian was urging the NSA to
expedite the work on the history, but the Committee was moving very
slowly and inefficiently. Finally Jinab-i-Fazil was fed up with that
situation and volunteered in the NSA to take over the project, have
the work down and be submitted to the Guardian at the shortest
possible time. Thus at the recommendation of Jinab-i-Fazil the
Committee was dissolved and he took over the task. Although the
Guardian has praised this service of Jinab-i-Fazil, but He was not
completely happy. I know this as a fact of the situation that the
Guardian sent a message to the NSA indicating that He specifically
wanted the job to be done by a Committee and not by an individual. By
the way this was also His instruction for translation of the Writings
that the work should be done by a committee and not by a single
person. Although I am a sincere admirer of Jinab-i-Fazil and I was his
youngest students, I am obliged to inform you of the actual facts of
the events. There is no doubt that Jinab-i-Fazil was the definitely a
highly qualified person for the job and perhaps the best, but the
Guardian did not want one person's concept and approach. He
specifically wanted a group activity in order to ensure maximum
objectivity.
2. Jinab-Fazil was composing the Zuhurur'l-Haqq himself, giving the
writings to Jinab-i- Lame' for making a copy in good handwriting in
order to be submitted to the Guardian. None of the students in his
classes were engaged in making note of his orally delivered account in
order for him to compile them as a the text at a later date. Since
there was no easy copying facility at that time and the students
wanted to have access to this book, Jinab-i-Fazil was dictating what
he had already authored and was copied by Jinab-i-Lame' to the
students in the class. In each session about ten pages of the book
were read by Jinab-i-Fazil and noted done by each one of the students.
Jinab-i-Fazil was using this process for also rereading the copy made
by Jinab-i-Lame' and correcting the possible errors. The final copies
of the volumes of Zuhurur'l-Haqq were all in the handwriting of
Jinab-i-Lame'. Other copies should not be considered as final and as
approved by the author. Vol. 3 was the only one published under the
supervision of the author. Jinab-i-Fazil used to tell the students
that he purposely eliminated many of the documents and photographs of
places , people and documents of the third volume in order to make it
possible that the text itself be published faster and cheaper. He was
saying that he was afraid that some of such documents or photos that
were irreplaceable might have been lost in the process of printing. He
also used to say the only reason that he decide to have the third
volume be the first one to be published was the fact that it had less
appendices and photographs and extras than the other volumes.
Therefore what is published as the 8th volume is not the final and
complete copy. Most probably it is one of earlier drafts of that
volume.
As you know the story of this monumental work is very long. Most of
what is being related by some of the friends are mere rumors and
distorted information. A number of the source materials collected and
used by Jinab-i-Fazil and some of the notes taken by his students were
later on used and perhaps are still being used by some of the friends
producing historical works in their own names with out acknowledging
the actual source for most of what they produce!
Ahang speaking again: In a subsequent message, the same friend
provided the following valuable insight and as during the past few
weeks several people had put forth theories on how the process of
collection of local histories was started in Iran, I thought to share
this section too.
For your information I may add the following account. Some years ago
Mr. Ahmad Yazdani related the following for us in a committee meeting:
When I (meaning Ahmad Yazdani) became the secretary of the NSA I
started the periodical which was later on called AKHBAR-I-AMRI. I had
no help. I used to sit on the floor spreading around me all the
documents containing news worthy materials that we had received in the
preceding month and compose and write the whole issue of AKHBAR-I-AMRI
myself. After a few issues of this periodical reached the Guardian, He
highly praised my efforts and encouraged me to continue that project.
This encouraged me to submit a suggestion for the consideration of the
beloved Guardian. My suggestion was to initiate a project for
collecting information and documents and preparing the history of the
Faith. The Guardian immediately approved this plan and instructed the
NSA to appoint a special and permanent committee to undertake this
function. The committee was formed both myself and Jinab-i-Fazil were
members of that committee. We wrote to all the LSAs asking them to
collect the information from the most reliable sources and compose the
history of the Faith in their locality and send a copy to our
committee. This was actually the plan given to us by the beloved
Guardian. When the local histories started to arrive and documents
were gathered from near and far we planned the preparation of the
history of the Faith.
That is how the whole project started in Iran. Some of the messages of
the beloved Guardian regarding this activity are printed in various
volumes of Toqi'at.
Ahang again: This information should help clarify the process which
culminated in preparation of the Zuhuru'l-Haqq series.
with best wishes, ahang.
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:31:24 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Invitation to NSAs
Dear Everyone,
I would like to second Chris's suggestion and broaden it
a bit with his permission: that, with John's approval, we
invite all the NSAs who can to come online to Talisman.
This may put into action many of the suggestions that
have been made.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:22:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: "Resurrection and Renewal" (fwd)
Sorry if you have already seen this but I have not yet so I am
resending it.
sAmAn
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:23:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: "Resurrection and Renewal"
Dear Everyone,
Over the break I read Abbas Amanat's book, "Resurrection and
Renewal".
First off, he has a masterful job of drawing on a large number of
sources for describing the events leading upto and including the
Babi era.
Some of his conlcusion are somewhat controversial as he himself
predicts in the introduction.
I would like to know the opinion of others on Talisman who have
read the book.
Amanat explains the mind set of the people in Iran - from
the conservatives to the liberals, from the rulers to the
merchants, etc. He then lays out how the Bab and his followers
responded to the political problems in Iran and the idea of
the expected Imam in the new Babi religion.
A couple of things that I found uncomfortable: Amanat conlcudes
that the Bab, in His writings before 1844 and to a certain
extant afterwards, is incomprehensible and that His presentation
is "weak" - I would have liked to seen to which passages Amanant was
refering.
Reading the book, there is the subtle argument of conflation -
as I understand it the charge that Baha'is have read back into
the Babi Faith things that were not there as to justify the
Baha'i Faith. Amanat argues that the Bab spoke of future
manifestations (plural). He does not seem to think the
the focus of the Babi revelation was "Him Whom God shall make
manifest". He also omits the passages in the Bab's writings
regarding the year 9 and 19 and mentions the verse about
"mustaghath" (?), the numerical value of which is either
1501 or 2000 something (I don't have the book with me).
In the flaps, there is a summary of the book - it describes the
Babi religion as the "forerunner of the Baha'i Faith". Who wrote
the summary? Isn't that definition contrary to certain points
raised in the book?
It was certainly an interesting book - was it submitted for
review?
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:41:49 +1300 (NZDT)
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: truth and unity?
Dear Linda,
(1) Re:
Certainly this should be
>a lesson to all. Don't you think, Derek? How about it, Robert? Linda
Certainly: a great lesson for us all.
(2) I must say the Juan-Michael dialogue is providing excellent reading,
and must also rank as a great lesson in the conduct of scholarly discourse.
(3) Scholarly discourse is a very serious matter: I have found that if I
don't take it seriously I get into trouble. However, there is this impish
being in me who is inclined to be rather comedic. He popped out last night
as I watched "Wayne's World" (on TV) and said to me: "Here is a better
metaphor for Talisman than "Northern Exposure..." Of course I told him to
"hush his mouth" and I had to purge myself of his insinuations by sending
off SDC 2 in the dead of night. But in the light of a rather drizzly
summer day here in Dunedin, I have to admit that my impish alter ego is not
entirely wrong. A bit like the case of you and Burl, yes? ;-}
Robert.
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:04:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Resurrection and Renewal
Let me just thank Saman for his comments on the book of Abbas Amanat,
*Resurrection and Renewal* (Cornell U. Press, 1989), which certainly
everyone should read and study.
Abbas Amanat is from a prominent Baha'i family; his brother, Husayn, is
an architect who designed the beautiful monument in Tehran that used to
be called "Shahyad" (what is it called now?) and who also has designed
the Seat of the Universal House of Justice. Both Abbas and Husayn have
been formally denounced by the Khomeinist government in Iran.
Abbas did his doctorate in Middle Eastern history with Albert Hourani and
Roger Owen at Oxford. Hourani was essentially a political and
intellectual historian, of Lebanese background, who innovated later in
life by taking traditionalist Islam and its elites seriously (most
historians focused only on modernists). Owen is a social and economic
historian working out of the Left British tradition. *Resurrection and
Renewal*, a revised version of Abbas's doctoral dissertation, is the
first full-length academic book on Babism, basing itself on a wealth of
primary sources, since the publications of Browne a century ago.
Derek has said that Abbas's book reduces Babism to its social and
economic context (or words to that effect). I think this critique is
wholly unfair. Abbas does set Babism in a 19th-century social and
economic context, which surely needs to be done for a big
social-religious movement. But he also pays a great deal of attention to
culture and to religion. Abbas has a keen sense of the spirituality of
the Bab and Babis, and has admitted that he is in love with the Bab.
Abbas is a careful historian, now teaching in the best history department
in the US, at Yale, and uses historical evidence in a nuanced way that
elicits my admiration. The book was not passed through official Baha'i
review. Abbas is in administrative Baha'i limbo, since he did not
request to be transferred from the British to the American community when
he moved here; but someone at National added his name to the rolls. He
has never disavowed being a Baha'i, and has been an important mentor to
younger Baha'i scholars in the Middle East studies field. He has been
gracious attendee and presenter at our Persia Religiosa meetings
having to do with the Babi-Baha'i traditions at the Middle East Studies
Association conferences annually.
I agree that his book has a secularist, academic and rational point of
view on Babism. He is certainly correct that the Baha'is later conflated
Babism to the Baha'i faith (MacEoin has made the same point; any
historian would). I suppose I would say that such conflation is the norm
rather than the exception. Christians have conflated the Hebrew bible
with Christianity; Hindus have conflated the Buddha with Vaishnava
Hinduism. It is a natural human tendency, which historians must fight
against if they wish to recover a past more like it really was. As for his
grumpy remarks about the Bab's lack of clarity, well, clarity was not the
Bab's strong suit, let us admit.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:18:49 PST8PDT
Subject: (informal thoughts) / was Re: 4-year plans
Cc: secretariat@bwc.org
Howdy Sen,
Thanks for the comments, even though they seem a bit bleak.
A few unworthy informal thoughts that occurred to me while
reading your message follow:
Generally I like your politics, but considering that the
31 Dec. 95 email communication from the House of Justice was
not the completed plan, I'm not sure your conclusions are
justified. I guess we'll see if they are when the final
Ridvan statement is released.
Even if so, I think that the newly (?) defined role for the
members of the Learned Institutions as spiritual guides is
potentially quite signifigant, at least in the USA. There
are many individuals that have been converted, but the lack
of *systematic* efforts to nurture the spiritual growth,
and ensure deepening and consecration in the Cause of the
Baha'i public is *one* of the main factors in the stagnation
of community life IMO (in my opinion). The lack of readily
accessible "centers of learning" and training institutes to
many local Baha'is compounds the problem.
I would suggest that the expansion of such endeavors points
to the need for an expanded, elaborated and possibly even
partially institutionalized "ethics of servitude" at the
local level.
The development Baha'i channels on the internet and use of
other communication technologies isn't going to solve these
problems, but may help provide some of the tools that will,
especially if they facilitate more open communication between
the Institutions and the Baha'i public.
But, as we all know, the devil is in the details. I wouldn't
hold out much hope that the House will issue a plan that
proposes detailed radical "evolutionary" changes (or reforms
if you prefer) challenging what could be characterised as the
Baha'i "establishment" or the status quo in the community. As
you may have noted, the apparent lack of resolution of the
tensions between the traditional elements of the Baha'i
community and both the dissident intellectuals and the
other members of the Baha'i public that were strongly
influenced by countercultural and anti-establishmentarian
experiences has been a source of great frustration to me
and a number of other folks that I have known.
Perhaps my inability to evolve a worldview/mindset that does
not differentiate between traditional and other subcultural
elements of the Baha'i public keeps me from seeing a
resolution. :)
I agree that there does seem to a conspicuous absence in the
communication of mention of the importance of developing the
devotional/worship and charitible aspects of community life.
I hope the folks at BWC take note of your concerns, and that
they are addressed. I'm tempted to suggest that the
extraordinary efforts in Omaha be seriously supported from
outside, but I have some trepidation that the erosive forces
of celebrityhood will go to work and undo the efforts and
success there.
I can't cite any specific references, but I seem to recall
various previous communications that stressed the importance
of grass roots development of community initiatives. Seems
obvious to me, again, how do we learn how to make it (or let
it) happen?
Best wishes,
Eric D. Pierce
(PierceED@csus.edu)
5132 8th Avenue.
Sacramento, California 95820 - USA
> From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
> Date sent: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 21:03:02 +0100 (MET)
> Subject: 4-year plans
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Copies to: secretariat@bwc.org
> to: Talisman discussion group
> copy (for your information): Universal House of Justice
>
> re: Universal House of Justice message of 31 Dec. 95
>
> I found the message very disappointing. The House seems
> to be postponing any qualitative change or broadening of
> the community until the year 2000. The Plan is to do more
> of the same but harder, placing more demands on - and
> making more useful and constructive roles for - teachers
> and administrators. There is nothing here which would
> foster the development of new aspects of the community
> life, which would create room and roles for people whose
> interests are in worship, in scholarship, or in charitable
> services. There is also no clue as to where the extra energy
> is to come from: the community is a vehicle which is
> becoming larger and heavier every year, and which is now
> grossly underpowered, with an engine modelled in the
> 1930s. The new driving power it needs can be obtained by
> developing some of the major facets of the Faith which are
> largely under-developed: the 'house of worship' (as a
> metaphor for the spiritual life, at both individual and
> community levels), the intellectual life of the community,
> and our engagement in the wider concerns of society. A
> religious community which consists largely of its own
> administration is a 1-cylinder motor: it can use the energies
> only of those people who find committees, teaching plans and
> reports the very staff of life.
> However ... the fact that the House is not planning for
> substantial developments does not mean they won't happen.
> That, after all, is up to us, because change happens, if at all,
> at the local and individual level. So: A Toast to 2000!
>
> The earth will be a garden
> and you will walk in ways
> and long bright days
> beyond imagining...
>
>
> Sen
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-3216854
> Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
> 6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
> ***
> When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
> and the individuality of each,
> thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 11:54:09 +1300 (NZDT)
To: curtotti@ozemail.com.au, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Michael Curtotti wrote to Juan Cole:
You seem to be putting the cart before the horse -
>rather then being central to the Baha'i Faith I think democracy is but one
>wheel on the cart - it has a different role and operates in a different way
>than parliamentary democracy - this does not necessarily mean that the
>Baha'i Faith is undemocratic - it has democratic features but it is not a
>parliamentary democracy.
Coincidentally, the House's letter re. "A Modest Proposal" posted today by
Eric makes points similar to those made by Michael. Certain behaviours
(considered unfortunate by the House) are first of all identified:
> 1. A destructively critical attitude toward many aspects of the
>: Baha'i community and its institutions, voiced often in highly
>: intemperate language.
>:
>: 2. An apparent wish to expose and publish widely whatever
>: shortcomings that Baha'i community or prominent individual
>: Baha'is may have had.
>:
>: 3. A clear attempt to create a constituency of like-minded
>: persons to bring pressure to bear on the institutions of the
>: Faith to make changes in the policies and practices of the Baha'i
>: community.
>:
Then the comment is made:
>: If one reads the above characteristics dispassionately
>: one can easily recognize that they are accepted methods of
>: political life in western democracies. It is perhaps not
>: surprising, therefore, that many of those involved have failed to
>: recognize that they are methods which are not in harmony with the
>: spirit and principles of the Baha'i Faith.
I wonder how Talismanians feel about the three ways of behaving. Does
anyone, for instance, think that the House was wrong and that these
behaviours are OK?
Robert.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
To: Robert Johnston
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 19:17:44 EST
Cc: curtotti@ozemail.com.au, talisman@indiana.edu
According to Robert Johnston:
>
> Coincidentally, the House's letter re. "A Modest Proposal" posted today by
> Eric makes points similar to those made by Michael. Certain behaviours
> (considered unfortunate by the House) are first of all identified:
>
>
> > 1. A destructively critical attitude toward many aspects of the
> >: Baha'i community and its institutions, voiced often in highly
> >: intemperate language.
An attitude is not a behavior and is not directly observable,
although the language is. I doubt that the attitude was as
destructive as it appeared to those who felt attacked.
> >:
> >: 2. An apparent wish to expose and publish widely whatever
> >: shortcomings that Baha'i community or prominent individual
> >: Baha'is may have had.
An apparent wish is not a behavior, but again, someone's
hypothesis to explain someone else's behavior. "Whatever
shortcomings?" So the House is saying because someone sometime
exposed someone's shortcomings, that they therefore must have
been out to expose everyone's? Non sequitur.
> >:
> >: 3. A clear attempt to create a constituency of like-minded
> >: persons to bring pressure to bear on the institutions of the
> >: Faith to make changes in the policies and practices of the Baha'i
> >: community.
> >:
"Pressure?" How about "feedback?"
>
> Then the comment is made:
>
>
> >: If one reads the above characteristics dispassionately
> >: one can easily recognize that they are accepted methods of
> >: political life in western democracies. It is perhaps not
> >: surprising, therefore, that many of those involved have failed to
> >: recognize that they are methods which are not in harmony with the
> >: spirit and principles of the Baha'i Faith.
>
> I wonder how Talismanians feel about the three ways of behaving. Does
> anyone, for instance, think that the House was wrong and that these
> behaviours are OK?
>
Oh, Robert. You might as well have called central casting and
said "send me a heretic." Of course I think the House was
wrong, don't you? They were surely wrong about the paranoid
interpretation of a world divided into Baha'is and rejecters,
to which I have commented separately.
Happy New Year
Paul
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:17:55 -0800 (PST)
From: esfan hesari
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: unsubscribe
Due to the number of massages on this account, I would like to
unsubscribe till the purchase of a new account. thank you.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Universal House of Justice 21 June 1989, Modest Proposal
To: "Eric D. Pierce"
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 19:24:35 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Eric D. Pierce:
quoting the Secretariat:
> : We recognize nevertheless that, in spite of all our efforts,
> : opposition will be aroused, the Faith will be bitterly assaulted
> : and criticized, mankind will be divided between those who accept
> : the Revelation and those who reject it. Because of this we try
> : to be forbearing and to react to slander with patience. But this
> : is, after all, the Day of Judgement.
My question: does this erect as an infallibly given principle
the belief that Baha'is will be severely persecuted on a
widespread scale, to the extent that the whole of humanity will
become a battleground between the pro- and anti-Baha'i forces?
Is all criticism "slander"? This letter has the same tone of
apocalyptic fervor that I find so scary in some of the
other persecution-predictions in Baha'i literature.
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:42:15 +1200
To: "K. Paul Johnson" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Dear Paul,
OK, I was struggling to find the right word(s): behaviours and/or
attitudes. How's that?
My (briefest possible) response to the question in your wittily phrased
final paragraph: no. For obvious reasons. However, I am aware that my
question was a bit mischievous, as you insightfully point out.
Thanks for the help,
Robert.
=END=
From: "Turncoat?"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:46:56 PST8PDT
Subject: Re (2): "A Modest Proposal" - Please Post It!
Greetings Blessed Ones,
A few more muddled thoughts on servitude and "true grit",
re:
> From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
> Subject: Re: "A Modest Proposal" - Please Post It!
> To: sadra@rt66.com (Sadra)
> Date sent: Wed, 3 Jan 96 1:49:08 EST
> Copies to: Talisman@indiana.edu
...snip
> I close by publicly (in a private mailgroup) promising to say
> that I am wrong if someone can convince me that I am. Otherwise, I stand
> on principle, and urge that a due process for protection of individual
> rights be proposed, or the existing one be reevaluated, based on the
> Dialogue affair as a test case. Except for this private forum, there may
> not be a Baha'i free press again for at least the next century.
>
> -- Christopher Buck
>
> ________________
> Sadra writes:
> >
> > Dear Steven, David, Chris, Tony, Payam and others who were involved with the
> > Dialogue Affair--
> >
> > Over the past year "A Modest Proposal" has been referred to quite a few
> > times but many of us here on Talisman haven't actually seen this
> > momentous -- or ominous, whatever your inclination is -- document.
...snip
Even though the previously posted letter from the Universal House
of Justice to an unspecified individual involved in the Modest
Proposal incident (as well as the "Individual Rights and Freedoms"
and "Community Functioning" letters) partly left me feeling like
they only want to beat up on the "lefties" in the community (a
feeling that was somewhat relieved when the May 1994 letter
indicting bad national administration came out!), I feel that
having been on the periphery of the Dialogue/Modest Proposal
business, I would like to break ranks and offer an alternate
prespective to Chris Buck's version. I am not refuting his
statements, just suggesting that a missing piece of the puzzle
be properly put in place so that we can optimize what we can
learn from our own recent history.
First: even though I deplore much of the goings on in the
"mainstream" Baha'i community at the time, and suspect that
some things in Willmette were also spinning wildly out of
control, there *was* a lot of strident rebellious language,
"in group" thinking, gossip mongering and blatent flaunting of
disrespectful behaviour (and such) going on in LA at the time.
I don't know how much further things could have been tolerated.
The main reason I level this harsh accusation is my own
bitterness about the way that so many supportive people's hopes
were PREMATURELY DASHED.
These were hopes for the emergence of a responsible well
articulated "alternative" Baha'i journalism that would affirm
the pain and struggle that many of us felt as we went through
the meat grinder of Baha'i conformism in the 60s and 70s and
searched for some opportunity to express our desire to follow
and develop our own legitimate "different" paths outside of the
dominant (and sometimes oppressive) mainstream culture's version
of the Baha'i experience.
In the language of the times, "when you don't have the balls to
get your shit together", what else is left in the end but
whimpering and sniveling about the mistakes of the administration?
Besides that, why should the USA NSA or the Universal House of
Justice go out of their way to reopen a publicly visible pandora's
box of even more controversy when the combatants have probably
never even thought about issuing a public or private apology or
otherwise attempt to swallow their pride and admit that some
mistakes were made?
A suggestion: an apology attached to a statement of Baha'i
journalistic ethics attached to a request to the USA NSA for
permission to restart a "Dialogue" like magazine would (if
permission is granted and it is commercially viable) be a huge
service to the community, and could function as a useful
extension to talisman@indiana.edu.
Any feedback/correction is appreciated,
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jwalbrid@indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Kings
> 8) As for Shoghi Effendi, most of his political writings were done in the
> 1930s and were shaped by the political circumstances of those times,
Probably very few people born after 1920 have any idea how serious things
were, and how pessimistic the general population of the U.S. had become by
the election of Roosevelt. It was to this fear that democracy could not
stand that the line from his inaugural speech 'We have nothing to fear but
fear itself' was directed. He is reported to have said just after the speech
that if America's problems were not solved quickly, he expected to be the
last President.
I think it also needs to be realized that much of our understanding of Baha'i
administration was shaped by the experience of this time. As Shoghi Effendi
was to say some 20 years later, the individual can not help being influenced
by the turmoil around him. what resulted was an uneasy truce between those
who at one extreme wanted Shoghi Effendi to reign as all-powerful king, and
on the other those who wanted no administration at all. A middle ground was
adopted in order to ensure survival in both the secular and religious
spheres. But with the end of the living Guardianship and the election of the
Universal House of Justice, these issues which were not really dealt with are
coming to a head again under different social and political circumstances.
I think what we need to keep in mind during all these discussions is that the
reality that Baha'u'llah has envisioned is not defined by the events that
surrounded Him, or Abdu'l-Baha, or Shoghi Effendi, or us today. And that the
Writings reflect the response of the Divine Plan to specific circumstances.
Our responsibility is to extract from this the principles that are inherent
and apply them to new situations. In doing so, tho, we need to be wary of
limiting ourselves to the methods of the over-masculinized society in which
we live, a society which tends to attack problems by analyzing every bit of
data before acting.
Don C
- sent via an evaluation copy of BulkRate (unregistered).
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:39:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: ShahyAd
Juan--
MeydAn-i ShahyAd (Shah Remembrance Square), the upside-down 'V' shaped
monument near MehrAbAd Airport, was dubbed MaydAn-i AzAdi (Freedom
Square) right after the revolution.
Nima
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:54:02 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: American Bahai ?i.e.Admin.
Dear Michael ,
Just a couple of thoughts . John has , I believe , stated quite well
Baha u llahs views on Kings . In facy I learned something new from his
comments about how to read Baha u llah's nuanced references .
I dont think parliamentary democracy is inseperable from the nation -
state . Shoghi Effendi did not think so either if we consider his lengthy
passage at the end of _Unfoldment of World Civilization_ . To argue for
such an "essentialist " linkage of democracy with a nation -state is
analagous to arguing that an organized religious community is inseperable
from a Shiite theocracy or a Papacy . Forms of life in the Wittgensteinian
sense can evolve as new " meanings " are attached to those forms which grow
out of lived human experience . The cuurent self understanding of the Bahai
community is just such a phenomenon.
I have no familiarity with the Australian community but some with the
American one . The implication , for me, of accepting the current self
understanding as normative and then suggest in some vague gradualist sense
that all the problems can be worked out within that self understanding
condems us to irrelevence in the 2st century . I think the burden is on those
who hold such a view to specify how this will occur rather than simply assert
that it will . Juan and others have proposed certain changes. I look forward
to your thoughts on how this gradualist approach will correct the
deficiencies in the community . My own sense , as I have argued for some time
is that the development of the Mashriqu l Adhkar is a key .
Currently in America the "consciousness " of the Faith as a public entity
is virtually nil . I mean this in two senses 1) the community itself has a
very privatistic view of what it means to be a Bahai . There is little that
affirms ones public identity as a Baha' i . The overemphasis on community =
administration serves to reinforce this view . 2) the larger public within
which we live as virtually no consciousnes of the Faith as a public identity
. This is true not with standing a few Congressional elites who have an
awareness of its existence . The public as a body has no such recognition .
All one has to do is engage a discussion with teen agers to affirm the
absence of a public identity as a Bahai . It has lilttle " meaning " . I
have in mind here "meaning" as an interpretive framework which makes sense of
the world and integrates rather than seperates one from the larger world in
which we exist . Ask teen 'agers what Baha um lah has to say about "how to be
and how to live" to use Abdul Baha's phrase . The answer is usualy a blank
stare with some vague reference to we are not supposed to drink or use drugs
or engage on pre-marital sex. One can ask a large number of adults and the
response is not much more significant . The one exception to this in the
American Bahai community centers around the Bahai's of Persian background and
this has as much to do with a sense of ethnicity as it does being Bahai's;
and their lived experience as a persecuted religious minority . I would bet
that the same is true of Australia which has a large Persian component of the
community .
The dominant view of the Faith is a sectarian one . It is a tribal view
of ourselves as the chosen people . My experience has been that one when
allows the believers to speak , actually give them permission to speak, and
not invoke platitudes about detachment and firmness and covenants etc what we
will here is all the questions which plague human beings who recognize they
live in a pluralistic world and sruggle with the universalistic claims of the
Faith. What one hears is the attempt of ordinary people to reconcile
universalism with the current self - understanding as a variation on the
chosen people theme . People dont arise to teach in energetic ways because
to teach what is an essentially sectarian understanding of the Faith creates
tremendous cognitive dissonance. All the exhortations to the contrary will
not remove that "dissonance" and create an interpretive framework that makes
sense of the universalistic claims of the Faith in a pluralistic world . This
has nothing to do with detachment or spiritual maturity or loving Baha u
llah . The current structure of the community lacks interpretive power and
meaning and it is for that reason I would suggest that the gradualist
approach you mention is not lkely to take us anywhere . I am however open to
your specific suggestions on how this might in fact accomplish something . I
am suggesting that the current stagnation of the community wil not change
through gradualism or a focus on "entry by troops " unless it is accompanied
by a dramatic re- thinking of what it means to be a Bahai . Anything less I
fear will not do and the fear I refer to is an existential one .
It is fascinating to me that Pope John Paul 2 in his _Centesimus Annus _
1991 arrives at a form of critique we find in Baha u llah and Abdul Baha 100
plus years ago but which the Bahai community has eschewed . The Pope mamages
to find virtue in democratic republics , value in the seperation of church
and state , even accepts the value of capitalist markets and all the while
condemns the exceses of both and calls for a moral / spiritual underpinning
to human life , individual and social . The Popes as Baha u llahs
contemporaries rejected the modern world . We now have another example of the
"great reversal " in my view . A catholic Pope is now advocating a position
very similar to Baha u llahs 100 plus years ago and the current Baha i
community sounds like the Popes of the 19th century. Do we really think this
is offering something to the world of the 21st century ? As a matter of fact
there is little in the Prosperity of Humankind statement earlier this year
which was not said more eloquently and less combersome , by the Pope 4 years
ago . It pains me a great deal to think that this marvelous vision of Baha
u llah could be reduced to advocating a kind of world which was the very
source of his oppression . It in fact amazes me . I am not willing , baring
significant evidence to the contrary, to be content with a gradualist
approach to change and regeneration within the Bahai community . It would
be for me , in as honest a way as I can say , a counsel of despair .
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 96 17:46:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Though I'm not a nit-picking fellow but in a posting I just read:
> As for his [Amanat's] grumpy remarks about the Bab's lack of
> clarity, well, clarity was not the Bab's strong suit, let us
> admit.
Could those who hold such notions please back it up with citing
*specific* examples?
I want to be clear that I enjoyed and learned from Juan's posting on
Resurrection and Renewal,... well, except this last sentence. And
the reason I'm picking on it is that it echoes a long-standing
charge against the Bab -- which is based on insufficient command of
language to appreciate the quality and beauty of His Writings.
Every single member of "fad'y Islam" (the Islamic organization
devoted to the destruction of Baha'i Faith) used to pull this stunt
about the Bab's Writings in order to disrupt our firesides. But
when they were confronted as to what's wrong with the Bab's grammar,
total silence was always the outcome.
Haj Muhammad Karim Khan wrote a long piece criticizing the grammar
of the Bab's sentence: "Alhamdu'llih lazi kashfa min ghina" (Render
thanks for removal of His mask -- that is, His Manifestation).
Baha'u'llah responded with a 20 page Tablet, Lawh-i Ghina, which
thoroughly devastated Haj Muhammad Karim Khan's arguments and showed
his profound ignorance.
Those who dare criticize the Writings of the Bab and the quality of
His language will be well advised to ponder this Tablet of
Baha'u'llah.
Again I want to emphasize that I enjoyed Juan's posting and in no
way are these comments aimed at his postings. I only wanted to
support Saman's criticism of R&R. Saman is right, this sort of
comments by a distinguished scholar, such as the author or R&R, will
only give credence to the an age old, ridiculous charge by our
enemies. Actually with "friends" like this, who needs enemies ;-}
best regards, ahang.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 20:22:10 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Phillips ethical dilema
Dear Friends,
A couple of people have pointed out to me that the entire text of my post did
not appear. I am resending it again to see if it will now post in full.
Dear All ,
In a respone to my post attempting to tralslate Jim H.'s post into my
language Phillip asked : " How cam we be in submission to a call to
religious orthodoxy and at the same time avoid becoming a 'traditional
defender of religious orthodoxy'.
Let me back into a response to this by outlining what I understand
from Baha u llah and the Guardian 's descriptions in WOB. This applies to
the "internal" Bahai community.
World Order of Baha u llah
Bahai Commonwealth
Administrative Order
Mashriqu l Adhkar
Houses of Justice
Houses of Worship
Bahai Courts Feast Educ.
institutions
Huquq u llah
Humanitarian Inst.
The orthodox view collapes the World Order of Baha u lah into
equivalency with the Administrative Order . It further collapses the Admin.
Order into the Houses of Justice. The Mashriqu l Adhkar as an Institution
does not enter consciousness . When it does it is subsumed under the Admin .
Order as a committee function of the House of Justice .
Feast , which I have positioned in the middle is usually , at the level
of consciousness , conceived as a part of the Admin . Order . I would suggest
it is not . Feast is a bridge institution between the Admin . Order and the
Maskriqu l Adhkar . It contains elements of both of the "Twin Houses " of
community development . It has a worship element and an administrative
element( consultation) which ideally is the realm of civil society or a
public within the Bhai comunity as Juan has defined public. Feast also
contains its own element of cultural celebration or the so called social part
. The devotonal part of Feast calls to mind the *Remembrance* of God and
ought to re awaken the "Dawnbreaker" within us in order that we might consult
on the affairs of the community . That is do democracy at the grass roots .
It culminates in the convivial or celebratory aspect which I conceive as a
celebration of the Unity of Humankind ( the House of Justice ) and the Unity
of God ( the House of Worship) .
The Houses of Justice and the Houses of Worship are ordained and
commanded in the Kitab i Aqdas . The language is instructive . The
characteristics of the members of the Houses of Justice are cast in terms of
" counsellors" "trusteeship" " guardians " . They are to "take counsel
together" and Bahau allah says "It is incumbent upon them to do so" . To what
end ? That end is to have " regard for the interests of the servants of God
, even as they regard their own interests . ." This parallells Baha u
lllha's definition of justice found in the Kalimat and is very . very
similiar to the language He uses in praising Queen Victoria and consultative
democracy in the Tablet to her wirtten prior to the revelation of the Aqdas .
This paragraph continues , after Baha u llah's definition of justice , with
a warning to the members of Houses of Justice . " Thus hath your Lord
commanded you . Beware lest you put away that which is clearly revealed in
His Tablet " This is a warning , in my view , to those who would usurp the
democratic and just character of Houses of Justice and turn them into a
despotic.from or conceive of themselves as a new form of Ecclesiastical body.
In this regard the abolition of the clergy in the Bahai community is
significant. As is the notation in the Aqdas that mattters of "worship are to
be conducted according to the book ".
The next paragraph of the Aqdas "commands" the building of Houses of
Worship . It continues with , to me, an important issue . Baha u llah
carefully limits what is forbidden but does not prescribe what is permitted .
More on that in a moment . In referring to Houses of Worship He says " Make
them as perfect as is possible in the world of being, and adorn them with
that which befitteth them , not with images and effigies ." Baha u llah
prohibits images and effigies but what He does not say I find most
interesting . He does not proscribe the use of symbols or for that matter
forms of ritual . The passage continues with after making them i.e.
constructing them we are to then " with radiance and joy, celebrate therein
the praise of your Lord , the Most Compassionate. This paragraph closes not
with a warning but with a promise of reality that is experiental in nature .
" verliy by His remembrance the eye is cheered and the heart is filled with
light ." Its this remembrance and light reference that makes me want to
coax John into more on Suha wardi .
If there is no clergy and no ecclesiastical order in the Bahai
community and Baha u llah does not prescribe how worship is to be conducted,
He says what is not to be done , how do we know how or in what manner to
worship . The answer it sems to me is embedded in the entire system of Baha
u llah 's notion of consultative democracy . We determine forms of worship by
consultation . The Mashriq u l Adhkar is an institution in its own right and
how worship is developed over time is a function of consultation of the
community within the "precincts of the Mashriq u l Adhkar . The Admin .
Institutions can enforce the ban on what is forbidden but they are not in a
postition to legislate prescribed forms . That is a function of community
consultation and is open to change and diverse circumstances. To suggest
otherwise is to me to collapse the World Order of Baha u llah into Admin,
Order and in turn to collapse that into NSA's / LSA's . How people choose to
worship, assuming it is not forbidden by Baha u lah, is not an
administrative issue . To do otherwise is to become a "traditional defender
of religious orthodixy" . The Admin Order and in particular the Houses of
Justice have a responsibility to "protect and safeguard men , women and
children " as Baha u llah notes . This protection I would submit is to be
centered around the central purpose of the Aqdas and of life the "recognition
" and observance" spoken of in the opening paragraph of the Kitab' i Aqdas .
Now we are arriving at my metaphor of an * Irfan Republic*.
Irfan is the Arabic word translated as recognition in the Aqdas and as
"true understanding" in the opening line of the Kitab i Iqan . My
understanding of the term is that it is an experiential one . I have before
refered to it as mystical insight but prefer to say it is the experienced
knowledge of the heart . To recognize , to have Irfan , is to be in the 7th
Valley. Then once there it is by definition impossible to seperate what one
"knows " fron what one "does" . This , it sems to me is the inseperable
nature Bahau llah refers to of recognition and observance .
The purpose of the Bahai community it would seem is to establish, to
create the conditions wherein each soul may " testify , in himself , by
himself , in the station of the Manifestation of His Lord , that verily there
is no God save Him ."
Baha ullah being no stranger to the corrupting character of religious
orthodoxy - see part 1 of the Iqan - or to the horrors of political
despotism - see His letters to the Kings in Proclamation . of Baha u llah -
began to design a system in which the knowledge of God could be experienced ,
that is Irfan , and that every human being would have the "Liberty " to do so
. This is , I believe abundantly confirmed by Abdul Baha in Travellers
Narrative with his remarks that "conscience" is "sacred ." Baha u llah
understanding that true understanding or Irfan was inseperable from its
observance designs this "wondrous system " in order that both Irfan and its
"observance" would be possible . An Administrative Order , whose
centerpiece is the Houses of Justice , have as their principle respnsibility
to protect , safeguard and promote this knowledge of God which is Baha u
llah's definition of religion .
When Baha u llah lays the responsibility to promote religion in society He is
, I would argue , saying to both Houses of Justice and civil governments ,
promote Irfan and construct a world based on consultative democracy with its
associated concepts of political and religious liberty , in which this
observance is possible . Hence my sense of Baha u llah's vision as an Irfan
Republic .
Republican theorists have long argued that the basis of a Republic lay
in virtue and liberty, and in the assumption of the respnsibility of that
liberty . The question has been how to keep a Republic from follwing the
cycle of establishment and internal corruption . The traditional answer has
been to divide power against itself which we see in the U. S. Constitution
framed heavilly by James Madison . I cant see that Baha u llah opposes that
principle. Abdul Baha of course praises the notion of equality before the law
and a form of independent judiciary . The Guardian recognizes this in Baha u
,llah in the Dispensation letter describing the Admin. order with the three
Aristotelian elements of a Republic
which he argues are combined and blended into the Admin. Order of Baha u llah
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 17:34 PST
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: truth and unity?
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>as I watched "Wayne's World" (on TV) and said to me: "Here is a better
>metaphor for Talisman than "Northern Exposure..."
Actually, it does turn me on when Bugs Bunny dresses up in women's clothes.
How many pierces does a punk rabbit have, and how many can slam dance on the
head of a pin is more Talismanic than anything on Northern Exposure. The
Prisoner is rather like Talisman, too.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
[end of 1/3/95 session]
Talisman emails received 1/4/96
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 18:12:46 PST8PDT
Subject: letter of 29 December 1988: what is it?
> : Department of the Secretariat 21 June 1989
> : [to an individual Baha'i]
> : Dear Baha'i Friend,
> : The Universal House of Justice has received your letter
> : of 3 April 1989, and had also received from Mr. [a member of
> : House] a copy of your letter to him dated 3 January 1989 ...
...snip
> ... A thoughtful study of
> : the letter of 29 December 1988 written by the Universal House of
> : Justice will make the Baha'i attitude clear.
Does anybody know if it has been published or is available online?
What was it about?
Thanks,
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 18:40:02 PST8PDT
Subject: democratic practices vs. ideals
Hi, me again.
re:
> Date sent: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 11:54:09 +1300 (NZDT)
> To: curtotti@ozemail.com.au, talisman@indiana.edu
> From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
> Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
...snip
> I wonder how Talismanians feel about the three ways of behaving. Does
> anyone, for instance, think that the House was wrong and that these
> behaviours are OK?
>
>
> Robert.
>
Really Robert, don't be ridiculous. If you need something more
constructive to do than thinking up lopsided twisted arguments,
why not compile a similar (and probably more voluminous) list
of all the weaknesses and errors of "mainstream" Baha'i culture?
Oops, forget it, the Guardian got a good head start on it. Didn't
the Guardian's wife state that he died early out of frustration
with the American Baha'is?
As usual, much dysfunctional love,
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
ps, composed this before I saw K. Paul's response and your response
to his response, but I know how much you like abuse so I'll send it
anyway.
pps, keep up the good work with SDC. Not sure I can attempt to digest
more than 3-4 paragraphs a day, but whatever...
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 21:48:18 EST
Subject: Challenging status quo
Dear Robert and friends,
Thanks for the inspiration of studying SDC in more depth.
I read first ninteen pages as slowly nd carefully possible.
More and more it is becvoming clearer that Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l'Baha
and Shoghi Effendi's writings are deeply challenging the status quo
at all levels of society. Especially the powerful.
My question is; with the exception of Peace Message, Vision for Race
Unity and Prosperity for Humanity, why does the Baha'i community and
leadership appear less challenging of business/political leadership
in U.S. in comparison to The Founder's of The faith?
I feel quite confused about non-involvement in controversy vs.
complacency. Reading SDC again intensified my bewilderment.
If followed the same pattern in SDC as individuals and a community,
surely we
would have no friend left in this country with the exception of real
ones. I am so mystified as I ponder on Master's Words in SDC.
I shall continue the study this evening. This is my thought on the
first 19 pages. Good night.
love, learn serve
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 22:54:49 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: UHJ Letter of 29 Dec. 1988.
I believe this is the so-called "Rights and Freedom Letter."
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 07:48:08 EST
From: YAZDANI Farhan <100623.1614@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: UNITY/DIVERSITY: reviewing
To: Multiple recipients of list G-ETHIC
On Tue, 26 Dec 1995 03:28:24 EST Steven Scholl wrote to the Multiple recipients
of list G-ETHIC: <<< Bruce is correct when he speaks about the handicaps that
Baha'i scholars (and
artists and intellectuals) labor under and Farhan did not state the exact nature
of censorship in the Baha'i community. That is to say, Farhan gave the
impression that the official Baha'i publishing organs require review of
literature written on the Baha'i Faith by believers. (In Farhan's defence, most
Baha'is are unaware of the exact nature of censorship in their community). This
is not the case. The Baha'i Review system requires that any Baha'i writing on a
Baha'i topic submit their work for review prior to publication. This means that
Baha'i scholars writing for academic journals are required to first submit their
writings to a censor board for clearing. This has become a major issue among
Baha'i academics, as Bruce demonstrated in his excerpt from a Baha'i academic
complaining about the Mickey Mouse rules he is asked to obey. You may all be
interested to know that one of the arguments Baha'i scholars have marshalled to
the Baha'i authorities on dropping this policy is that it is in violation of the
Universal Declaration of Human Rights (I beleive article 19 on freedom of
expression), a document the International Baha'i Community supports.>>>
Hi Steven,
Welcome on this list and thanks for the information I was not aware of in
France. In 1976 I wrote my medical thesis and other memoranda for the university
on the Baha'i Concept of Health, Ethics, several papers published by the French
Baha'i Medical Association, several papers for the French speaking Baha'i
studies magazine, the Swiss "La Pensee Baha'ie etc.
On _no_ occasion during the past 20 years has my work been reviewed. (you think
I should have kept quiet, hein? (Bg)
I have always been told that as long as I made it clear that I was presenting my
personal opinions and interpretations (and translations into French), and
quoting the Baha'i writings with adequate references, there was no need for
review.
This would not be the case if I wished to publish a Baha'i reference book that
engages the responsability of the Baha'i community, through an official Baha'i
editor such as Maison des Editions Baha'ies where the review committee mandated
bt The National Spiritual Assembly of France or Belgium would have to review and
engage it's own responsability. There is a paper I have somewhere, by the
Universal House of Justice, on this topic.
In other words, to my present understanding, I have the right to express _my_
opinions, but no right to express _the Baha'i_ opinion without adequate
approval. Perhaps things are different in the USA? We dont have Mickey Mouse
here, but Asterix and Obelix (Bg) Are we too loose in France? If you see the
poor quality of some translations or publications, you would wish there had been
some serious reviewing.
As an occasional writer, I write in order to respond to practical solution and I
often turn for documentation and advice to the World Center, as and I am keen on
engaging in work that is useful to the present priorities of society and not
concerned with scholarship, book selling and so on. My sincere hopes are that my
modest writings will contribute to create unity and not disunity.
In any case, if things are that bad for Baha'i scholars and for editors like
yourself in the US, you have done well to ask the World Center to review it's
position; else, come and publish in Europe!
Loving greetings,
Farhan
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:29:48 +1200
To: "Eric D. Pierce" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: democratic practices vs. ideals
Dear Eric,
Re:
>Really Robert, don't be ridiculous.
>ps, composed this before I saw K. Paul's response and your response
>to his response, but I know how much you like abuse so I'll send it
>anyway.
How right you are. My masochism cries out for recognition. I realise the
question was silly.
Robert.
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 22:54:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Paul,
How can you make a judgment about the views of the House of
Justice without knowing the story as they do - or do you
know the full story and are just holding back?
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:00:11 +1200
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 3: "His Majesty the Shah has..."
Talismans,
Moving along... I think that after this post we'll be at about
page 7... Today's passage provides the immediate setting of the work.. It
was written anonymously by 'Abdu'l-Baha when He was around 30 years of age.
It addresses the immediate Persian situation, but as the Guardian has
pointed out -- and I wish I could easily locate the exact quotation -- it
is destined to play a major role in the establishment of the Baha'i
commonwealth, or whatever... That is: its lasting influence will be in
relation to the reformation of the world.... I suppose -- and stand to be
corrected -- a crucial reason for anonymity was the poor relations between
the Baha'is and the Moslems. Out of respect for Eric -- and to save myself
effort -- I have kept the reading short. Thanks for the support Quanta...
The passage begins with a ref. to the beginnings of Islam.
Robert.
SDC 3
All praise and honor be to the Dayspring of Divine wisdom, the Dawning
Point of Revelation ( Muhammad), and to the holy line of His descendants,
since, by the widespread rays of His consummate wisdom, His universal
knowledge, those savage denizens of Yathrib (Medina) and Batha (Mecca),
miraculously, and in so brief a time, were drawn out of the depths of
their ignorance, rose up to the pinnacles of learning, and became centers
of arts and sciences and human perfections, and stars of felicity and true
civilization, shining across the horizons of the world.
His Majesty the Shah has, at the present time, [1875] resolved to bring
about the advancement of the Persian people, their welfare and security
and the prosperity of their country. He has spontaneously extended
assistance to his subjects, displaying energy and fair-mindedness, hoping
that by the light of justice he might make Iran the envy of East and
West, and set that fine fervor which characterized the first great epochs
of Persia to flowing again through the veins of her people. As is clear
to the discerning, +P6 the writer has for this reason felt it necessary
to put down, for the sake of God alone and as a tribute to this high
endeavor, a brief statement on certain urgent questions. To demonstrate
that His one purpose is to promote the general welfare, He has withheld
His name. [Footnoted as: The original Persian text written in 1875 carried
no author's name, and the first English translation published in 1910
under the title The Mysterious Forces of Civilization states only "Written
in Persian by an Eminent Bahai Philosopher."] Since He believes that
guidance toward righteousness is in itself a righteous act, He offers
these few words of counsel to His country's sons, words spoken for God's
sake alone and in the spirit of a faithful friend. Our Lord, Who knows
all things, bears witness that this Servant seeks nothing but what is
right and good; for He, a wanderer in the desert of God's love, has come
into a realm where the hand of denial or assent, of praise or blame, can
touch Him not. "We nourish your souls for the sake of God; We seek from
you neither recompense nor thanks." [ Qur'an 76:9] "The hand is veiled,
yet the pen writes as bidden; The horse leaps forward, yet the rider's
hidden."
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 23:07:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: ShahyAd
Dear Nima, Juan and All,
On Wed, 3 Jan 1996, Sadra wrote:
> Juan--
>
> MeydAn-i ShahyAd (Shah Remembrance Square), the upside-down 'V' shaped
> monument near MehrAbAd Airport, was dubbed MaydAn-i AzAdi (Freedom
> Square) right after the revolution.
>
> Nima
>
Husayn Amanat's design for the monument was chosen in a competition
for the structure - if memory serves it was to mark the 2500 anniversary
of monoarchy in Iran (early 1970's). I have read that some feel that
the huge event, with programs at Perspolis and with dignitaries from
around the world, is thought to be the beginning of the end of
the Pahlavis.
Amanat was 24, when his design was chosen. He later worked in
the office of the Queen, Farah Diba - she did a lot in trying
to revive Persian culture, art and music.
A few weeks ago, I caught a program on the Discovery channel called
"terra-x". The episode, entitled "A Persian Odessy" gave an overview
of the various religions in Iran's history - no mention of the
Babi or Baha'i Faiths however. They did show the ShahyAd/AzAdi
Square in a couple of prominant shots.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 23:22:25 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Focus of the Bab's Revelation
Dear All,
What was the focus of the Bab's Revelation?
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 00:45:06 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: 4 year plans
Dear All ,
Sen' s comments unfortunately reflect the inner response to this
message when I read it . Sorry Eric . I am holding out for the full
document in April . Sen experienced disapointment ; I experienced a sense
of despair .
With all my heart I want to see the numbers of avowed adherents to this
Faith increase dramatically . I do not , with all my heart , think this is
possible with a model of community life that equates community with
administration or assumes that all activities can fit within that framwwork .
This has been tried over and over again . Aministration is a physical as well
as logical abstraction it is not nor was meant to carry the burden of
community building or maintenance . That is what Worship and service are to
engender . And that is what the Mashriqu l Adhkar is all about . What I
semse in the imvolvement of the Counsellors and Aux. Boards is an application
of the Ruhi Institute to the world .
I dont know how to say this but my heart just feels abandoned . My
despair is a sense that the House of Justice has written off the West ,
except for its money .
regards ,
Terry
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: The House and Dialogue
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 1:29:46 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
My thanks to Eric for posting this letter. I'd like make a few
observations:
(1) I find the letter to be loving, yet firm in tone.
(2) The House, I think, presents a solid case for reasons behind the
NSA's actions, and justifies the NSA's concerns, given the history
of adversarial, yet compliant, relations between Dialogue and the NSA.
(3) In terms of Baha'i law, the appropriateness or inappropriateness
of the NSA's actions at the National Convention was not directly
commented upon. Wrath may be righteous, but actions still require
legal justification.
Why, I ask, was it necessary to publicly denounce Scholl at a
National Convention, and to publicly read from his private correspondence
to the House? Is this a pattern for future society?
A private communication, a letter, could have expressed the NSA's
outrage without ruining a Baha'i's reputation for the rest of his life.
Does this reflect our Faith's concern with individual rights?
Article 12 of *The Universal Declaration of Human Rights* bears
repeating:
*No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his
privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour
and reputation. Everyone has the right to protection of the law against
such interference or attacks.*
So, does the Faith subscribe to *The Universal Declaration of
Human Rights* or not? At this point, I honestly do not know.
Article 10 declares:
*Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public
hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of
his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.*
What was the formal charge against Scholl? Was he permitted to
answer accusations made against him, before punitive actions were taken?
Not to my knowledge.
The House criticized some of the past articles in *Dialogue*. Unless I
am mistaken, these articles had already been passed through Baha'i
review in the States.
Are writers then vulnerable for what they publish after review? Is
this not the fault of the review system itself? Why no criticism of the
Baha'i review system, if it permitted publication of material offensive to
the House?
As to the petition business, I did not myself see the proposal as
a petition when I was asked to sign (I declined). But, for the sake of
argument, let us suppose it was a petition. Where in Baha'i law is it
stated that petitions are forbidden? Can one be guilty of a misdemeanor or
crime that has yet to be defined as law?
Under most circumstances, the Administration issues warnings to
individuals before sanctions are applied. Was Scholl warned in advance of
the NSA's actions?
Well, all of this is perfectly justified because there are no
procedures defined, nor individual rights enshrined, nor human rights
subscribed to, that could have prevented this from happening.
What is to prevent the same thing from happening to me, or to you?
What are my rights? What recourse do I have? At the same time, I fully
acknowledge the NSA's prerogative and authority to take action, but how is
that action, or any such action, to be regulated in terms of Baha'i law?
Well, I suspect that the Faith cannot really change from this sort
of input or reasoning or appeal to principle. Because there is no
mechanism for it, no public discussion of it in a free press, no
protection even in mid-review, nor protection after review [in Scholl's
case, that is--things are totally different now thanks to the changes
Robert Stockman has implemented].
What can I expect? Either indifference or perhaps a warning if
this is inappropriate? What of real engagement? Why can't the
Administration come online and say: *We cannot discuss the details of a
past action, nor are we under any obligation to justify it. However, apart
from the bitterness with which these views have been expressed, we see
something positive in this line of inquiry and perhaps you can submit a
formal proposal which we would then consider.*
At ABS in San Francisco, Juan Cole gave a brilliant (though
unreported) paper on human rights and the Baha'i Faith. I'm very proud of
our record of human rights advocacy at the international level. But what
of human rights within the Baha'i Faith? Yes, that's precisely why the
House has issued its compilation on Individual Rights. Unfortunatle, I
don't have a copy of this compilation. I'm certain that it's the obvious
place to start. I just doubt that much of this has ben translated into
Baha'i law. (I hope I'm wrong on this.)
And what about the temporary sanctions placed on one individual
who had nothing whatsoever to do with *A Modest Proposal*?
In sum, I pose these questions: (1) Does the Baha'i Faith subscribe
to *The Universal Declaration of Human Rights*?; (2) Should there be
defined procedures that legally and morally constrain administrative
actions taken against an individual?; (3) Can we as a Faith speak about
this episode publicly and take pride in how it was handled? I rest my case.
Perhaps all of this has been addressed in the House's compilation.
But, if not, I propose that we take a second look at Juan's proposed
amendments to the NSA By-Laws. I'm serious. I'm not posting in order to
vent. I'm posting in order to do something positive that I can be proud of
and the redounds to the prestige of the Faith.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 01:42:27 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Fascism, etc.
Well, I haven't had much time for Talisman recently. But, I was the one who
pointed out that some views of the future Baha'i system of government seem to
leave no room for anything but fascism, so I should reply. I certainly
apologize to anyone who was offended by this analysis. But I do think that
it has substance, and I was not simply name-calling. Fascism is still a
word that has serious meaning.
After all guys, if we are going to advocate a system of government which
is identical in all dimensions to fascist theories of government (except, of
course, that God is on our side this time) somebody is going to notice.
Sorry, but we might as well face it. Of course, as long as we remain
obscure and irrelevant, no one is going to care. But, emerging from
obscurity, we are going to have to deal with intelligent criticism sooner or
later.
This is not to say that I believe that the system ordained by Baha'u'llah
or advocated by the Master or implemented by the beloved Guardian is a
fascist system. God forbid! But, I DO think that some of the more narrow
and rigid interpretations of that system most certainly are. And I think
that can be said meaningfully and seriously.
Yes, we can think of other words that might be substituted here--statist
or totalitarian or authoritarian--whatever. It is odd how any critique of
the status quo seems to be attacked on the grounds of poor choice of words.
Someone even objected to the phrase "back to Baha'u'llah" a while ago. I do
not think that the choice of words is the issue. Any choice of words that
made the same point would be found objectionable--get real!
But, I am open to a change of vocabulary. What would you call a system
that deifies the state, that recognizes no individual rights, that will not
tolerate freedom of speech, and that allows no political activity outside the
channels designated by the state? (Is someone going to object to the word
political?) What would you call a system that allows for no civil discourse
and no civil society? Even petitioning the institutions of a redress of
grievences is unacceptable. And any organized attempt to change the status
quo is treason. What shall we call such a system in common language?
Now, I do not believe that this is the system that Baha'u'llah intended.
No, not for a minute. But, some of my Baha'i brothers and sisters most
certainly do. And I think that we should talk about that.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:58:38 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Saman Ahmadi , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Focus of the Bab's Revelation
Saman et al,
>
>What was the focus of the Bab's Revelation?
He Whom God shall make Manifest?
Re:
"Clarity was not the Bab's strong suit." I too (like Ahang) must admit to
having some considerable difficulty with this infelicitous statement. (I
mean, did He play cards?!)
Robert.
=END=
From: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:05:54 +1100 (EST)
To: Juan R Cole
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Juan and friends
Just a quick note to say hi and let you know I can't reply to the messages
on this thread tonight as I was tied up with a meeting. Will reply
tomorrow.
By the way, I have read your article Juan, it is an excellent piece of
scholarship (doesn't mean we haven't got things to discuss though!)
tomorrow
Michael
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: The 1989 Dialogue Letter
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 06:30:12 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
I appreciate that Eric has posted the 1989 letter, written on behalf
of the Universal House of Justice, regarding _Dialogue_ magazine, etc. As
some of you may know, the Universal House of Justice recommended that I
submit a letter I had written to them as an article for _Dialogue_, and
the editors graciously published it. Briefly, it was a response to a
particular paper which appeared in one of books published by Kalimat
Press. I subscribed to _Dialogue_, and, although I didn't always agree
with various points of view expressed in it, I generally enjoyed reading
it (just as I enjoy Talisman with the same qualification).
My concern is that, after reading the 1989 letter, it appears to me
that some of the viewpoints which the House criticized and recommended
modifiying (re: _Dialogue_ and the California group) continue to dominate
many of the postings on Talisman. Has everyone been made aware of the
House's decisions or am I misreading the letter from the Secretariat?
Warm regards to you all,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 08:19:32 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Shahyad/Azadi square
I visited Shahyad in 1974, taken there by a Baha'i friend who explained
the Baha'i symbolism discretely built into the building. If you went up
to the top, there was a splendid multi-media show on Reza Shah "the
Great" (the last
Shah's grim father). I wanted to go back the next time I got to Iran
when I knew more about modern Iran. I suppose they've changed the show now.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 08:25:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Resurrection and Renewal
Ahang-jan:
Sorry to be unclear; I was not speaking of grammar. I think you may
have seen my posting about a month ago on the Bab's grammar, which was
certainly not that of classical Arabic, but which in my view is none the
worse for that. I was speaking of the difficulty any scholar has
sometimes in penetrating the elliptical and mystical style of the Bab,
which attests our own inadequacies and not His.
cheers Juan
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 08:59:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Shahyad/Azadi square
Dear Friends,
John mentioned the Baha'i symbolism in the structure - nine
windows at the top on each side (I have been told that one
window on each side was blocked after the revolution).
The monument also has elements of Islam - the arches, I believe -
and Zoroastrianism.
At the beginning of the revolution a huge portriat of Khomeini
was painted on the structure - it has now been removed.
Sorry to go one about this, but it is one of my favorite
buildings!
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:13:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: questions concerning letter of the House
Eric posted the letter of the House in 1989 to an individual believer
concerning the *Dialogue* affair. It is a letter I am familiar with and
have long had a number of questions about. Let me post some paragraphs
and raise the questions after each section, as a basis for discussion.
Department of the Secretariat 21 June 1989
:
: [to an individual Baha'i]
:
:
: Dear Baha'i Friend,
: The Universal House of Justice has received your letter
: of 3 April 1989, and had also received from Mr. [a member of
: House] a copy of your letter to him dated 3 January 1989 which
: treats of the same subject although from a more personal point of
: view. The House of Justice welcomes and wish, expressed at the
: end of the second paragraph of your letter of 3 April, to resolve
: the problems which have been besetting your relationship with the
: National Spiritual Assembly of the United States in a genuine
: spirit of love and reconciliations. It has asked us to send you
: the following reply.
: It is important for the editors of "dialogue" to
: recognize that source of difficulties does not lie primarily in
: specifics of the proposed publication of "A Modest Proposal".
: This incident was merely the latest episode in a history of
: problems going back some twelve years, originating with the study
: groups in Los Angeles and its promotion of the wide circulation
: of the records of its discussions, continuing through some of the
: publications of Kalimat Press, and being developed through
: certain of the articles appearing in "dialogue".
: It is clear that many different individuals were involved
: over the years in the study group, Kalimat Press and "dialogue".
: However, certain believers have been prominently associated with
: all three and form a connecting link in the minds of many of the
: friends.
Cole: I am extremely confused by this prologue. The LA Study class was
established in the mid to late 1970s. I am unaware that it or any of its
members ever broke any Baha'i law. Many issues in Baha'i community
functioning and in Babi-Baha'i history were discussed. Connections were
established with the British Baha'i scholars who were then
emerging--Peter Smith, Moojan Momen, Denis MacEoin. The notes of these
discussions were requested by the Friends and were supplied to them
informally. Eventually, ultra-conservative Baha'is saw some of these notes
and complained bitterly to the NSA that such discussions should not be
allowed. This is typical Baha'i anti-intellectualism. Instead of asking
these persons to lighten up, the NSA came to the LA Study Class and asked
it to either cease distributing copies of its minutes (which went to only
a 130 or so people) or to have these minutes "Reviewed" as a
publication. (These were xeroxed notes on *conversations*! What was
there to review?). The LA Study class, an informal and ever-fluid group,
ceased distributing notes of its discussions. It thereafter gradually
went out of existence, the spirit of these inquiring minds having been
crushed by the intolerance of the Baha'i administration. This was an
implementation of the "lowest common denominator" policy; that is,
nothing can be said, to which any Baha'i might object. Of course, the
policy gives a veto on community discourse to the most rigid and
narrow-minded elements of the community.
The person to whom this letter was addressed never attended any
sessions of the LA Study Class, to my knowledge, until after the
distribution of class notes had ended; he had come to LA in the '80s;
and he certainly was not part of a cabal that stretched back a decade!
We are living in the real world, folks. Name me another religion
(or any sort of group) in which an intellectual salon can be instanced
as a shady activity! In which sharing the contents of such
conversations can be criminalized!
It remains, in any case, entirely unclear to me what the LA Study
Class has to do with the *Dialogue* blow-up. The above paragraphs appear
to be even-handed in admitting the diversity and fluidity both of the LA
Study Class and of Dialogue's editors and contributors. But in fact the
writers of these paragraphs have become convinced that there was some
sort of continuity in the form of a cabal of long-term trouble-makers. I
think this is untrue, and that it is an impression formed in Haifa
because of the prominence of Tony Lee in dealing with them. A member of
the House whom I met around 1980 referred to the LA study class as "Tony
Lee's group," and I objected vigorously to the characterization (to no
avail); the same member had, as I remember, equally unshakeable
convictions regarding the illegitimacy of Syria's role in the Middle East.
: It is also clear that the views expressed by participants
: in the study group, in the books published by Kalimat Press, and
in the articles in "dialogue" have covered a wide spectrum. But
: three characteristics have continually recurred and it is these
: that have caused the grave concerns that has existed in the
: hearts and minds of many of the friends. These three
: characteristics are as follows:
:
: 1. A destructively critical attitude toward many aspects of the
: Baha'i community and its institutions, voiced often in highly
: intemperate language.
:
: 2. An apparent wish to expose and publish widely whatever
: shortcomings that Baha'i community or prominent individual
: Baha'is may have had.
:
: 3. A clear attempt to create a constituency of like-minded
: persons to bring pressure to bear on the institutions of the
: Faith to make changes in the policies and practices of the Baha'i
: community.
These points can be read in two ways. First, they are charges against
the *Dialogue* editors and many other sincere Baha'is. Second, they
imply a social ideology and view of the functioning of society.
I am actually unaware of *any* Kalimat books that could be fairly
characterized in these terms. Can someone please enlighten me here with
specific citations? Also, none of the LA Study Class sessions *I*
attended in 1979-81 and 1983-84 *ever* was characterized by these
attributes. Since members of the House did not attend, how would they
know, in any case? The notes sometimes reflected the personality of the
person who wrote them up more than the tone of the actual conversations.
1 and 2 above actually amount to the same point, which is that the
authors of this letter do not approve of any criticism of any aspect of
the Baha'i community or its institutions. All the many individuals
associated with the LA Study Class, Kalimat and Dialogue were devoted
Baha'is; if they voiced criticisms, they were meant to be constructive
criticisms. Sometimes, as Eric says, the tone may have been too shrill.
But no one I knew wanted to tear anything down; they wanted to build up.
The point is that sometimes in order to build a skyscraper you have to
demolish a structure grown decrepit. It seems to me that some Baha'is
want a situation in which no building can ever be condemned as unsafe;
the result will be cave-ins on our heads. It has even recently openly
been said on Talisman that there can be no such thing as constructive
criticism in a Baha'i context!
Point 3 is simply incorrect. No one was trying to pressure Baha'i
institutions directly, as opposed to simply expressing personal views to
see whether they were of use to others. This serious accusation is made
without the citation of any proof whatsoever. I believe the House was
misinformed by someone in this regard.
But let us take up these points as social ideology. What sort of society
do they imply?
Well, first of all they imply a society in which no public criticism
of authority (or even of community functioning) is permitted. Even an
analytical examination of Baha'i history of the sort a professional
historian might write would inevitably involve some criticism. So
Journalism, History, and other intellectual endeavors appear to be
foreclosed. Even a discussion group by Baha'i intellectuals (librarians,
journalists, publishers, writers, artists) must carefully monitor itself
so that no criticism of the status quo is expressed!
Second, any public expression of opinion must be closely monitored to
ensure that it does not operate so as to attract a constituency! And the
Baha'i institutions are not interested in hearing from constituencies so
formed, which are illegitimate! The Baha'i faith consists only of 1)
atomized individuals who may express themselves only at Feast or in
private letters and 2) of elective institutions who are above public
criticism, must be obeyed implicitly, and are immune from the desires and
needs of the people who elected them.
I find this vision, if I have understood it correctly, absolutely
frightening and cannot think of any way to describe it other than as
totalitarian. I also cannot in any way reconcile it with 1)
Baha'u'llah's commitment to parliamentary democracy on the British model,
2) `Abdu'l-Baha's Secret of Divine Civilization or his talks in the West,
or 3) the beloved Guardian's insistence that assemblies employ
"democratic methods" and keep in close touch with the views of even their
humblest constituents, or 4) what I know of the House's values.
So, obviously, I *have* misunderstood the purport of the House's
message. But what other meaning or implication could it have? Again,
someone should please enlighten me.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 10:26:18 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: coming out of obscurity
To: talisman@indiana.edu
If the Baha'i Faith is to come out of obscurity in the near future, I fear that
it will appear as another modern cult. The paranoia (so pronounced in Peter
Khan's recent talk) and the perpetual admonitions to tow the line, to use
proper wording and tone, to defer constantly to the institutions make me wonder
how on earth I ever would have become a Baha'i if I were presented with the
Faith for the first time today. It seems to bear no resemblance to the
religion I joined in my youth.
It seems as if the institutions are suffering from claustrophobia. Sometimes I
think that the members live in a tiny village in some remote forest and that
they have lost touch with the rest of the world. They seemed locked in a time
warp, oblivious to the tremendous changes that have occurred in the world over
the past 30-40 years.
I admire those who have decided to trudge on and stay true to the ideals of the
Faith; to look at the underlying principles and build on those. I love Terry's
ideas that we should be taking the development of devotional practices into our
own hands and not waiting for the institutions to tell us how to do it.
Religion is a growing, ever changing phenomenon which is constanly shaped by
its followers. This is a religion given to all of humankind. It should appear
to the world as that and not just as a little, exclusive cult. Linda
=END=
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 09:20:22 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: John Bromberek
Subject: re: The Disconnected Letters
An update:
I just noticed the following message on s.r.b which may be the information
that I was looking for concerning how the Fifth Imam (or Baha'u'llah, or the
Bab?) used the diconnected letters from the Qur'an to calculate the date of
the Qa'im's appearance. Does this look familiar to anyone?
John B.
johnb@intellinet.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
From:
Subject: Re: question re 3 mysterious letters
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:34:55 GMT
Sami Hussain (sami@toolik.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: Dear Baha'is:
: I was reading "The Dawnbreakers" recently and came across a passage which
: described the Bab sending a tablet to one of his followers explaining the
: meaning of the three mysterious letters that begin each surah (chapter) of
: the Qur'an except one.
: However, the book doesn't offer the explanation. What do these letters
: mean according to the Bab? Muslim scholars have pondered this for
: centuries. Thanks for your help.
: Sami H.
Dear Sami:
The summary of the allegorical and symbolic meaning of the
descrete letters at the beginning of several chapters of Quran is a
reference to the year of advent of Qa'im of Islam, Mahdi, the Twelfth
Imam Whose advent all Muslims have been waiting.
The descrete letters have each in Arabic a numerical value as follows:
Alif = 001
Lam = 030
Mim = 040
Ra = 200
Sad = 090
Now the letters, Quran chapters and summation:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
chap# Name Letters Numeric Eq
------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Cow Alif-Lam-Mim 61
3 The Family of Imran Alif-Lam-Mim 61
7 The Elevated Places Alif-Lam-Mim-Sad 161
10 Yunus Alif-Lam-Ra 231
11 Hud Alif-Lam-Ra 231
12 Yusuf Alif-Lam-Ra 231
13 The Thunder Alif-Lam-Mim-Ra 271
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sum 1267
Muhammad began His Mission teaching Quraysh at -7 A.H.(Lunar)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Advent of Qa'im at 1260 A.H.(Lunar)
Which is 1844 A.D.
On 23th May 1844 A.D. or 1260 A.H.(Lunar) the Bab, declared Himself to be
the the Promised One.
--
Kindest regards,
*****************************************************************
Mesbah Javid * One planet, one people please!
mjavid@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca * Baha'i Faith unites the world
*****************************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:29:05 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: R&R
Allah-u-Abha, friends.
Juan, I appreciated your posting on Amanat's work
I found the book to be enormously helpful to me in beginning to understand
the social context of the Bab's Revelation and the enormous implications of
bringing new wine into a culture so entrenched in its tradition (Islam). I
found his candor refreshing, and was a bit relieved not to have to plow
through cubic feet of exaltation and praise in order to understand what was
being said. I am in no way saying that this work should be held up as the
standard for Baha'i history, but that the style and approach of the book is
of great value in studying the history of the Faith. It helped me to
realize just what heroes the first believers were in an atmosphere of such
oppression. A far cry from us "poor misunderstood" American Baha'is. And
it gave me hope that perhaps some unsuspecting souls would be attracted to
the Faith who otherwise wouldn't go looking at a fireside. Hu knows.
Warm Regards,
LuAnne
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:39:53 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Four Year Plan
Like Terry, I too was disappointed by the House's draft plan. My problem
arises from the contradictions between proposed goals and methods. The
letter asks for e.g. more individual initiative and then specifies that
this individual initiative is intended to support an elaborate structure
of plans and subplans. LSA are to be encouraged to exercise more
independence, and additional auxilliary board members and assistants are
to be appointed to encourage them to do so.
I think that at this point the House is caught in a bind that it does not
know how to escape and that is partly but not wholly of its own making.
a) Habits of thought: We are all now used to large, centrally
directed teaching plans. They did not always exist in the Baha'i
Faith--the Faith was brought to America by people probably almost unknown
to `Abdu'l-Baha--but everyone in a position of responsibility now grew up
under them.
b) Declining effectiveness of international teaching plans:
Teaching plans were devised by Shoghi Effendi as an efficient way of
spreading the Faith to new places. It is not clear that they are very
efficient for expanding communities where they already exist. All the
really successful Baha'i mass teaching that I know much about has
resulted from individuals or small groups and has almost never been
planned from above. Nobody planned the mass conversions of 1970-71 in
the Carolinas (or the conversion of Jews in Hamadan in the 19th century,
for that matter.)
c) Discomfort with individual efforts. Baha'i institutions are
used to directing the affairs of the Cause and are not particularly
comfortable with individuals going off on their own--usually an untidy
business, often conducted contrary to current policies. Combined with a
discomfort with charismatic individuals working on their own, such
administrative caution tends to lead to successful examples of
"individual initiative" being shut down. Witness everything from Fadil's
history project to the American youth movement. But it is individuals who
do such things. The outstanding example is the mass conversion of Middle
Easterners who were not of Iranian Shiite extraction. I can think of
three major examples: Persian Jews, Persian Zoroastrians, and Egyptian
Sunnis: one single individual was responsible for all three groups--Mirza
Abu'l-Fadl Gulpaygani.
d) Small vs. large scale projects: The teaching plan model is
excellent for concentrating resources to carry out large projects:
establishing the Faith in Africa or building the Arc, for example. But
an international teaching plan cannot tell the LSA of Perry Township,
Indiana, that Mr. Jones' firesides are going real good and that the
community should chip in to help pay for the refreshments and for a
baby-sitter for his faithful helper, Mrs. Smith.
e) Resources: At the moment, the world Baha'i community's
disposable income is going to pay for the Arc. That means that a great
many small and medium-sized projects can't happen. In particular, local
communities have few financial resources and in the US at least cannot
even consider projects like local Baha'i centers.
My answer to these problems is empowering local communities:
i) greater stress on local community and worship life.\
ii) more autonomy and authority for LSAs.
iii) less authority for NSAs.
iv) a much greater reluctance to interfere in the Baha'i
activities of individuals.
v) more stress on local Baha'i funds and less on national,
continental, and international funds.
john walbridge
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:50:07 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: questions concerning letter of the House
Concerning the Universal House of Justice and the *letter*:
First I am curious. I realize that a number of people here had friends that
were involved in all the affairs going on that are reflected upon in the
letter - but other than Scholl who else here was directly involved in both
the LA Study group and Dialogue? Can we have all you raise your hands, and
then lets compare notes, once and for all about what happened that _you_
personally witnessed. Then we can have, at least for this list the definitive
story from that side of the room. I doubt the House will come on the list to
further explain their decision . . .
Secondly. It seems after reading that letter that the vast majority of the
comments from the House that were chastising were directed at the long-held
attitude toward various institutions and long-practised actions by various
folks. Not one incidient; not one comment at the wrong time, but a history of
agitation.
No one who has recently read my posts can doubt that I have my own anger -
more actually because there is a far worse story that occurred in the 1990's
that I have yet to share - and this goes nearly all the way to the top. But I
wonder. . . are we going to continue on with this self-destructive,
vindictive, woe-is-us attitude? Where has it gotten us in the past friends?
For all you folk involved in the affairs disclosed in the *letter* - how far
have you gotten with such an attitude over the past nearly twenty years?
When will we realize that storming the Bastille is _not_ going to work. When
are we going to look for a new route, a new strategy? But it does take less
courage to hurl angry words and gush acid emotions than it does to step onto
the field of battle . . .
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:59:58 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: brief biography
I became a Baha'i in 1969 just before going to Vietnam. My educational
background is in physics and mathematics and currently work in the field
of software development in Northern Virginia. My interests include
"history of religion" and "science and religion". My formal education
was at Savannah State College in Georgia and Howard University in Washington
D.C.
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 11:18:50 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Amanat's book
Long-time Talisman readers will please forgive me for repeating myself.
I reviewed *Resurrection and Renewal* for a Persian literary journal
published in the US. My take on it was that Amanat had very neatly
turned the ideologies of modern Iran against themselves. He argues that
the Babi religion was the last indigenous Iranian religious movement to
arise prior to the overwhelming cultural influence of the West. It was
thus the last train to leave the station that might have taken the
Iranians to a point where they could deal with the challenge of the West
on their own cultural terms, rather in the way that the Japanese have
been able to do.
Now, Iranians who dislike the Faith tend to do so not so much out of
religious prejudice but out of a sense that Baha'is have broken the
nationalist concensus of Iranian society. This is why there are lots of
non-religious Iranians who dislike the Baha'i Faith. Amanat thus argues
that in a real sense the Iranian nationalists betrayed their own ideals
by not accepting the Faith, in that the BF is a true expression of the
Iranian cultural identity while modern Iranian nationalism is a
watered-down import from the West. On the other hand, religious Iranians
rejected the last indigenous creative expression of Iranian spirituality
and have thus found themselves stuck with medieval obscurantism instead.
This may seem rather abstract, but if you known something about20th
century Iranian political thought, it is a very important argument,
transforming the Faith from a 19th century curiosity to a central event
in the history of modern Iran. And since Amanat's book is probably the
best academic book available on the religious history of 19th century
Iran, it is an argument that will carry weight.
In other words, Amanat's book is a brilliant defence of the cultural
importance and legitimacy of the Baha'i Faith in the context of modern
Iranian history.
This more than makes up for his disturbing our pleasant myths about what
happened the night the Bab declared his mission to Mulla Husayn.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:43:54 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: prayer
I have a favor to ask of the quotemongerers among you. I have written
"The Baha'i writings say that the impulse to pray is natural," and the
editor has asked my source. Does anybody have any idea what I might have
been citing?
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:27:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Alethinos@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: questions concerning letter of the House
On Thu, 4 Jan 1996 Alethinos@aol.com wrote:
>
> First I am curious. I realize that a number of people here had friends that
> were involved in all the affairs going on that are reflected upon in the
> letter - but other than Scholl who else here was directly involved in both
> the LA Study group and Dialogue?
I participated in the LA Baha'i Study Class for several years, and
organized the classes for a year or so, but was not involved from the
beginning. I was also on the editorial staff of Dialogue. The
organizational structure of Dialogue was informal (to say the least) and
it tended to function as a participatory democracy, with those
doing the most work also making more of the day-to-day decisions. For
the most part, all I did was read and comment on submissions and the
layout of the magazine at editorial meetings.
Richard Hollinger
=END=
Subject: Good bye for now
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 11:04:16 PST
From: Brian and Ann Miller
Dear Talizen friends,
I am signing off for a couple of weeks. Ann and I are going to get some much
needed vacation time in Hawaii. We hope to do some teaching, some surfing,
relaxation, and some visiting. We will be staying with some family friends in
Kalaheo, Kauai. My parents became close friends with these fascinating people
in Berlin while my father worked in the reconstruction government at the end
of WWII. I'll share more when we return. Best wishes and loving greetings to
all.
Brian & Ann Miller [briann@cruzio.com]
--
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 11:05:45 -0800
Message-Id: <199601041905.LAA27455@home.humboldt1.com>
To: jwalbrid
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: prayer
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>I have a favor to ask of the quotemongerers among you. I have written
>"The Baha'i writings say that the impulse to pray is natural," and the
>editor has asked my source. Does anybody have any idea what I might have
>been citing?
>
>john walbridge
>
Dear John,
Ask and ye shall receive:
1755. If one friend feels love for another, he will wish to say so. Though
he knows that the friend is aware that he loves him, he will still wish to
say so.... God knows the wishes of all hearts. But the impulse to prayer
is a natural one, springing from man's love to God.
Prayer need not be in words, but rather in thought and attitude. But
if this love and this desire are lacking, it is useless to try to force
them. Words without love mean nothing. If a person talks to you as an
unpleasant duty, with no love or pleasure in his meeting with you, do you
wish to converse with him?
(Report of Abdu'l-Baha's words as quoted in J. E. Esslemont,
"Baha'u'llah and the New Era", p. 94)
(Compilation of Compilations, Prayer, Meditation, ..., page 236)
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 13:21:07 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: John Bromberek
Subject: Re: prayer
At 12:43 PM 1/4/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I have a favor to ask of the quotemongerers among you. I have written
>"The Baha'i writings say that the impulse to pray is natural," and the
>editor has asked my source. Does anybody have any idea what I might have
>been citing?
>
>john walbridge
Greetings John,
I guess that might be me. Possibly this is the quote:
John b.
johnb@intellinet.com
______________________________________________________________
THE IMPORTANCE OF PRAYER, MEDITATION
AND THE DEVOTIONAL ATTITUDE:
A COMPILATION
March 1980
1755. If one friend feels love for another, he will wish to say
so. Though he knows that the friend is aware that he loves him,
he will still wish to say so.... God knows the wishes of all
hearts. But the impulse to prayer is a natural one, springing
from man's love to God.
Prayer need not be in words, but rather in thought and
attitude. But if this love and this desire are lacking, it is
useless to try to force them. Words without love mean nothing.
If a person talks to you as an unpleasant duty, with no love or
pleasure in his meeting with you, do you wish to converse with
him?
(Report of 'Abdu'l-Baha's words as quoted in J. E.
Esslemont, "Baha'u'llah and the New Era", p. 94)
(Compilation of Compilations, Volume 2, page 236)
=END=
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 96 20:58:49 MEZ-1
From: Noorbakhsh Monzavi
To: bahai-faith@bcca.org, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Invasion of PERSIA by Arab Muslims.
Dear friends,
Could someone clarify that His Holiness Muhammad was alive in THIS
world at the time of invasion of Persia by Arabs or not.
Who ordered the invasion, and the background/reasons for such invasion?
If I remember correctly, the beloved Master, 'Abdu'l-Bah , has
said/written (paraphrasing) that all the military moves/actions of
His Holiness Muhammad have been DEFENSIVE (in persian: "Defai").
*********************
Refards,
Noorbakhsh.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
To: Saman Ahmadi
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 15:29:04 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Saman Ahmadi:
>
>
> Paul,
>
> How can you make a judgment about the views of the House of
> Justice without knowing the story as they do
The way they were expressed in the letter posted was
self-condemning in my opinion.
- or do you
> know the full story and are just holding back?
Just what I read here. I don't know the full story of the
Holocaust, but I presume to judge Nazism. I don't know the
full story of how Nicole and Ron were killed, but I presume to
judge OJ responsible. Life is full of situations in which you
have partial information, and are required to make a judgment.
My basis for the judgment is the accumulated wisdom (g) of
Talisman as read for the last year or so. I wouldn't have
explicitly said I thought the House was wrong, unless the question
were explicitly put that way.
I have studied enough religious history to know that when
institutional authority punishes someone for expression of
views, the person getting punished is usually more virtuous
than those doing the punishing. In light of the burden of
history to that effect, the burden of proof in any specific
case is on those who would argue that said institution was in
the right.
Paul
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 21:52:21 PST
Subject: re: American Bahai ?i.e.Admin.
To: talisman@indiana.edu, TLCULHANE@aol.com
On Wed, 3 Jan 1996 19:54:02 -0500 TLCULHANE@aol.com wrote:
My own sense , as I have argued for some time
>is that the development of the Mashriqu l Adhkar is a key .
Terry, I'm trying to get this. I don't yet have any imagination for
what you mean here. What does a M'l'A look like?
>
> Currently in America the "consciousness " of the Faith as a
public entity
>is virtually nil . I mean this in two senses 1) the community
itself has a
>very privatistic view of what it means to be a Bahai . There is
little that
>affirms ones public identity as a Baha' i . The overemphasis on
community =
>administration serves to reinforce this view
What do you mean, Privatistic?
. 2) the larger public within
>which we live as virtually no consciousnes of the Faith as a public
identity
... identity as a Bahai ... has lilttle " meaning " ... "meaning" as
an interpretive framework which makes sense of
>the world and integrates rather than seperates one from the larger
world in
>which we exist
I do keep trying to figure out what it means to be a Bahai. And I am
frustrated with much of what I hear. We are so inarticulate, I think.
I have one friend who seems to radiate what it is ( at least on her
good days. )
I don't know what it means either.
Now this next part I get:
> The dominant view of the Faith is a sectarian one . It is a
tribal view
>of ourselves as the chosen people . My experience has been that one
when
>allows the believers to speak , actually give them permission to
speak, and
>not invoke platitudes about detachment and firmness and covenants
etc what we
>will here is all the questions which plague human beings who
recognize they
>live in a pluralistic world and sruggle with the universalistic
claims of the
>Faith. What one hears is the attempt of ordinary people to
reconcile
>universalism with the current self - understanding as a variation
on the
>chosen people theme
And I feel you've described me here as well.
. People dont arise to teach in energetic ways because
>to teach what is an essentially sectarian understanding of the Faith
creates
>tremendous cognitive dissonance. All the exhortations to the
contrary will
>not remove that "dissonance" and create an interpretive framework
that makes
>sense of the universalistic claims of the Faith in a pluralistic
world . This
>has nothing to do with detachment or spiritual maturity or loving
Baha u
>llah .
But now you come to your solution and I get shakey again. I think
that in Talisman I find something like a community with interpretive
power.
But I get lost again when you start to talk about gradualism.
The current structure of the community lacks interpretive power and
>meaning and it is for that reason I would suggest that the
gradualist
>approach you mention is not lkely to take us anywhere . I am
however open to
>your specific suggestions on how this might in fact accomplish
something . I
>am suggesting that the current stagnation of the community wil not
change
>through gradualism or a focus on "entry by troops " unless it is
accompanied
>by a dramatic re- thinking of what it means to be a Bahai . Anything
less I
>fear will not do and the fear I refer to is an existential one .
Well, warm thanks.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/03/96
Time: 21:52:22
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 13:25:32 PST
Subject: re: truth and unity
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, Noorbakhsh Monzavi
On Wed, 03 Jan 96 16:04:07 MEZ-1 Noorbakhsh Monzavi wrote:
>
>....
> "Constructive Criticism is Destructive"
> at present time, but if i find it, will write it.
>
> I have not read/seen the article. What happened is that I was
listening
> to some tapes from Danesh. In one of his talks he mentioned the
phrase
> and said that he has written an article by this name.
> So I find the phrase interesting ...and write it to Talisman.
>
> His talks have actually been given in an intensive course on
the
> subject of "marriage" in the summer school in Ireland, 1984.
>
> Noorbakhsh.
>
Ooops.
In the context of how to get along in a marriage,the phrase
"constructive criticism is destructive" has a lot of merit.
However, I think in that context the term "constructive criticism"
ought to be in quotation marks to indicate that that the behavior is
ironically named.
I think that some spouses can pick each other to death in the name of
being "helpful." And often a third party has to intervene to tell the
"helpful" on how destructive he/she is being in her "helpfulness."
People who compulsively give "constructive criticism" are thought of
as having a disorder. The term "co-dependent" is not recognized in
American Psychology as a diagnostic category, but the intrusive
helpfulness is recognized in certain psychological models as
pathological behavior.
So I think this is a special case, although I'm sure it has some
relationship to the reform Juan is advocating, --- that a form of
discourse be encouraged so as to create a rational public which can,
through it's discourse, participate in the adminstration of the
Faith.
I suspect a correspondence between the way people conduct their
private lives and the way they imagine public life. If someone says
we should trust the NSA and not discuss their decisions, I could
imagine them living the same rules toward their spouse.
Respectfully yours,
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/03/96
Time: 13:25:32
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 15:12:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Resurrection and Renewal
Dear Juan, Ahang, John, LuAnne and All
My point (and I think Ahang's) about Amanat's characterization of
the Bab's writings was not about the Bab's grammar - Amanat states
that some the Bab's writing is "weak" in its presentation.
"Weak" is a relative term and implies that Amanat understood
the Bab's words but that the same ideas could have been expressed
in a better way - am I reading too much into this ? (I don't
think so.) The use of the word is enough to raise eyebrows but
I am trying to be dispassionate and was curious about the passages
to which he was refering.
I would be raked over the coals if I made a conclusion in an
engineering article without giving evidence - especially when
the conlcusion, I know, will be seen as controversial by some.
And this is not a 20 or 30 page journal article which has to be
concise - it is a 400+ page book that is meticulously researched
and footnoted. Also as Ahang noted, this will defenitedly be used
by some to say that" "see, a respected historian who is from
a Baha'i family also thinks there is something wrong with the
Bab's writings" - exaggerated? Yes. That is why I want to
see it for myself.
Amanat addresses the grammar issue himself by relating the Bab's
answers to his critics: that He was freeing the language from
its rigidness - a rigidness which Amanat suggests the Bab detested
because of His experiences as a seldom-student in the strict
madrasas (religious schools). This conclusion makes sense and is
supported by evidence in R&R.
Another point: Amanat tells of the Bab's feelings about
Jesus - how Their lives were similar in some ways. However
when discussing the Bab's dissimulation (taqiya) - His avoidence
of disclosing His claim to Manifestationhood and only doing
so gradually - Amanat does not, as I remember, mention the
parallel in this instance with the actions of Jesus.
And with regard to the prominance of the merchant class in the
Babi movement, Amanat begins the chapter by stating his conlcusions
and then making the case and then restating his conclusions again - he
does not do so to the same degree in any other section.
As I said, I thought it was a very interesting book - I just have
a few questions.
One last question: is the term "it is not unlikely" correct ?:-)
BTW, I thought the events of the Declaration of the Bab as Amanat
describes them, were actually very inspiring.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:15:11 +1300 (NZDT)
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: re: truth and unity
Dear Philip,
Re:
>I suspect a correspondence between the way people conduct their
>private lives and the way they imagine public life. If someone says
>we should trust the NSA and not discuss their decisions, I could
>imagine them living the same rules toward their spouse.
Was thinking of a similar kind of correspondence this morning. Was
thinking that saying that the House was "mistaken" was like a child telling
a second child (whom he hardly knows) that the second child's father (even
less well-known) was wrong to make him do his homework or somesuch...
In his "Nichomachean Ethics" Aristotle said that politicians could use a
little psychology....
Robert.
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:38:15 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 4: "O people of Persia! Awake from your drunken sleep!"
Talismans,
Did I hear the other day that the New York Times named Ghengis Khan the
person of the millennium? By today's standards he wasn't a nice guy,
obviously, but in times when the warrior impulse was more politically
correct than it is now, he was a pretty outstanding dude [infl. "Wayne's
World" here] one has to admit. So, when 'Abdu'l-Baha writes of Persia's
former glory, His response to former military prowess is generous...
Something He wrote about China carries a similar flavour -- like: "Look at
China now, lost in heedless and corrupt slumber...How unlike the China of
yesteryear when all nations trembled before her great power!" Something
like that... Of course Persia's former glory was comprised of much more
than the capacity for conquest on the battlefield...
Robert........
SDC:
O people of Persia! Look into those blossoming pages that tell of another
day, a time long past. Read them and wonder; see the great sight. Iran
in that day was as the heart of the world; she was the bright torch
flaming in the assemblage of mankind. Her power and glory shone out like
the morning above the world's horizons, +P7 and the splendor of her
learning cast its rays over East and West. Word of the widespread empire
of those who wore her crown reached even to the dwellers in the arctic
circle, and the fame of the awesome presence of her King of Kings humbled
the rulers of Greece and Rome. The greatest of the world's philosophers
marveled at the wisdom of her government, and her political system became
the model for all the kings of the four continents then known. She was
distinguished among all peoples for the scope of her dominion, she was
honored by all for her praiseworthy culture and civilization. She was as
the pivot of the world, she was the source and center of sciences and
arts, the wellspring of great inventions and discoveries, the rich mine
of human virtues and perfections. The intellect, the wisdom of the
individual members of this excellent nation dazzled the minds of other
peoples, the brilliance and perceptive genius that characterized all this
noble race aroused the envy of the whole world.
Aside from that which is a matter of record in Persian histories,
it is stated in the Old Testament--established today, among all European
peoples, as a sacred and canonical Text--that in the time of Cyrus, called
in Iranian works Bahman son of Isfandiyar, the three hundred and sixty
divisions of the Persian Empire extended from the inner confines of India
and China to the farthermost reaches of Yemen and Ethiopia.(2 Chronicles
36:22-23; Ezra 1:2; Esther 1:1; 8:9; Isaiah +F7 45:1, 14; 49:12) The
+P8 Greek accounts, as well, relate how this proud sovereign came against
them with an innumerable host, and left their own till then victorious
dominion level with the dust. He made the pillars of all the governments
to quake; according to that authoritative Arab work, the history of
Abu'l-Fida, he took over the entire known world. It is likewise recorded
in this same text and elsewhere, that Firaydun, a king of the
Pishdadiyan Dynasty-- who was indeed, for his inherent perfections, his
powers of judgment, the scope of his knowledge, and his long series of
continual victories, unique among all the rulers who preceded and followed
him--divided the whole known world among his three sons. As
attested by the annals of the world's most illustrious peoples, the first
government to be established on earth, the foremost empire to be organized
among the nations, was Persia's throne and diadem.
O people of Persia! Awake from your drunken sleep! Rise up from
your lethargy! Be fair in your judgment: will the dictates of honor
permit this holy land, once the wellspring of world civilization, the
source of glory and joy for all mankind, the envy of East and West, to
remain an object of pity, deplored by all nations? She was once the
noblest of peoples: will you let contemporary history register for the
ages her now degenerate state? Will you complacently accept her present
wretchedness, when she was once the land of all mankind's desire? Must
she now, for this contemptible +P9 sloth, this failure to struggle,
this utter ignorance, be accounted the most backward of nations?
Were not the people of Persia, in days long gone, the head and front of
intellect and wisdom? Did they not, by God's grace, shine out like the
daystar from the horizons of Divine knowledge? How is it that we are
satisfied today with this miserable condition, are engrossed in our
licentious passions, have blinded ourselves to supreme happiness, to that
which is pleasing in God's sight, and have all become absorbed in our
selfish concerns and the search for ignoble, personal advantage?
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 16:42:43 -0500
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Bahai ?i.e.Admin.
In a message dated 96-01-03 19:56:26 EST, TLCULHANE@aol.com writes:
> People dont arise to teach in energetic ways because
>to teach what is an essentially sectarian understanding of the Faith creates
>tremendous cognitive dissonance. All the exhortations to the contrary will
>not remove that "dissonance" and create an interpretive framework that
makes
>sense of the universalistic claims of the Faith in a pluralistic world .
This
>has nothing to do with detachment or spiritual maturity or loving Baha u
>llah .
I agree that this is the heart of our problem. Only when we accomplish a
shift of understanding which resolves this for the mass of believers will we
be able to spread that understanding to a mass of humanity which is ready to
receive it. we must learn to see holiness all around us. this "mystical"
perception would have the practical effect of making real our connection to
humanity and humanity's connection to us. As things stand now, we can only
talk to each other, and our utterences are predictable, boring and sterile. I
can hardly explain to family and friends why I should be interested in the
Faith, nevermind explaining how it might have something for them. We are so
inward turning and smug as to make ourselves rediculous. if i introduce a
friend to the local Baha'is, i am embarrassed by their overanxious and niave
attempts to promote the faith.
david taylor
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:02:04 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "Mark A. Foster" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: The 1989 Dialogue Letter
Mark Foster wrote:
> My concern is that, after reading the 1989 letter, it appears to me
>that some of the viewpoints which the House criticized and recommended
>modifiying (re: _Dialogue_ and the California group) continue to dominate
>many of the postings on Talisman.
This was the point that I clumsily tried to make yesterday. Mark's view of
Talisman is similar to mine. It IS a wonderful forum, but I speculate on
how much more wonderful our scholarship might be if we weren't so
frequently hell-bent on criticising the Institutions...
Somehow related to this has been the reactions to the new House letter. I
am with Ahang when he expressed excitement at the new emphasis on entry by
troops...but I cannot afford to not be an optimist, even though a rather
sluggish one... I may not stand on the roof and shout "YES!" but I won't
get up there and shout, "NAY!" either. My heart affirms the House...
Robert.
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 15:04:30 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Reuters 1/4/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/04
> 1. 13:36 IRAN HANGS EIGHT MEN AND A WOMAN FOR DRUGS, MURDER
> 2. 12:57 AFGHAN REBEL MILITIA REJECTS IRANIAN MEDIATION
> 3. 12:35 IRAN BUILDING AIRPORT ON UAE-CLAIMED GULF ISLAND
> 4. 10:16 IRAN MINISTER IN AFGHAN REBEL STRONGHOLD FOR TALKS
> 5. 08:01 IRAN SAYS U.S. COVERT PLAN THREATENS WORLD ORDER
> 6. 07:47 BAGHDAD WARNS IRAN OVER REBEL KURDS
>
>=START= XMT: 13:36 Thu Jan 04 EXP: :00 Sun Jan 07
>
>
> Iran hangs eight men and a woman for drugs, murder
> TEHRAN, Jan 4 (Reuter) - Eight men and a woman were hanged in Iran after
>being convicted of charges including kidnapping, drug smuggling and murder, a
>newspaper said on Thursday.
> The daily Kayhan said seven men and a woman, members of a criminal gang of
>24, were hanged in a prison in the southern city of Kerman after a court
>convicted them of drug trafficking, armed robbery and kidnapping. Other gang
>members received prison terms of six to 11 years.
> A man was executed in public in Saveh in central Iran after being convicted
>of killing a girl student, it said.
> The man received 30 lashes before being hanged for having molested and
>threatened the victim, the newspaper added.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:57 Thu Jan 04 EXP: :00 Sun Jan 07
>
>
> Afghan rebel militia rejects Iranian mediation
> By Raja Asghar
> ISLAMABAD, Jan 4 (Reuter) - Afghanistan's Taleban Islamic militia said on
>Thursday it had rejected Iranian mediation for peace with President Burhanuddin
>Rabbani and the government the rebels are trying to overthrow.
> A Taleban spokesman in Pakistan said the militia leaders had told a
>visiting Iranian delegation in the southern Afghan town of Kandahar that they
>did not regard Tehran impartial in the current factional fighting in
>Afghanistan.
> ``We have told the Iranian representatives that we do not accept your
>mediation because you are pro-Rabbani and not impartial,'' Taleban spokesman
>Abdul Manan Niazi said by telephone from the southwestern Pakistani town of
>Quetta.
> A Pakistan Foreign Ministry spokesman said earlier on Thursday that
>Islamabad had information that an Iranian delegation had arrived in Kandahar,
>where the Taleban has its headquarters, on a peace-making mission.
> In another related development, a close Rabbani ally, Ittehad-i-Islami
>party leader Abdurrab Rasul Sayyaf, met Pakistani officials at the northwestern
>border outpost of Torkham, Afghan sources in the northwestern Pakistani town of
>Peshawar said.
> There were no immeddiate details of what the sources described as the first
>high-level contact between the two sides since Pakistan closed down its embassy
>in Kabul last September after Afghan demonstrators burned the building, killed
>an employee and beat up the ambassador and other staff.
> Rabbani accuses Pakistan of backing Taleban, which is led by Islamic
>theology students most of whom studied in Pakistani religious schools. But
>Islamabad denies the charge.
> Iran's deputy foreig minister Alauddin Borojardi visited Islamabad last
>month for talks both sides said were aimed at evolving a common approach to
>help bring peace to Afghanistan.
> But some Afghan factions opposing Rabbani accuse Iran of being pro-Rabbani,
>a charge denied by Tehran.
> Both Pakistan and Iran helped Afghan mujahideen guerrillas in their war to
>end Soviet occupation in the 1980s and played host to about five million war
>refugees.
> Islamabad has often expressed doubts about the legimtimacy of President
>Rabbani after he disregarded U.N. deadlines to hand over power to a neutral
>council last year and while most of the country is ruled by his opponents.
> But Borojardi said last month Tehran recognised Rabbani's government as
>legitimate while it represented Afghanistan at the United Nations and the
>Organisation of Islamic Conference.
> The Taleban militia is besieging Kabul since October and has refused to
>make peace with Rabbani until he agrees to step down.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:35 Thu Jan 04 EXP: :00 Sun Jan 07
>
>
> Iran building airport on UAE-claimed Gulf island
> TEHRAN, Jan 4 (Reuter) - Iran is building an airport and a harbour on a
>strategically important Gulf island also claimed by the United Arab Emirates
>(UAE), an Iranian official was quoted on Thursday as saying.
> Deputy Road and Transport Minister Abdollah Mohammadhashem, quoted by the
>Salam daily newspaper, said the airport on Abu Musa island would open in early
>February.
> One jetty of the harbour would be finished before March 20 and the other
>within a year of the first, he added.
> Iran and the UAE have been at loggerheads over Abu Musa and the nearby
>Greater and Lesser Tunb islands that are near key shipping lanes at the mouth
>of the Gulf.
> Revolutionary Guards Commander General Mohsen Rezaei said Iran had
>completed the island's ``defensive cover,'' Salam reported. He did not
>elaborate.
> Iran and UAE-member Sharjah ran Abu Musa jointly under an agreement reached
>in 1971 before the departure of British forces which protected the Gulf Arab
>emirates.
> In 1992 Iran tightened its control over Abu Musa, citing security reasons.
>The UAE reacted by reviving its claim to the islands and accusing Iran of
>occupying them.
> Tehran says the deal over Abu Musa and its sending troops to the largely
>uninhabited Tunbs at the same time restored historical Iranian rights to the
>islands.
> Iran says its sovereignty over the islands is not negotiable but has called
>for bilateral talks with the UAE to clear up any ``misunderstandings.''
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:16 Thu Jan 04 EXP: :00 Sun Jan 07
>
>
> Iran minister in Afghan rebel stronghold for talks
> TEHRAN, Jan 4 (Reuter) - Iran has sent a cabinet minister to hold talks
>with the rebel Taleban Islamic militia to end the war in Afghanistan, the
>Iranian news agency IRNA said on Thursday.
> It said deputy foreign minister Alaeddin Boroujerdi arrived in the
>militia-held southern Afghan city of Kandahar on Wednesday for discussions with
>Taleban leaders.
> The talks follow an earlier unreported visit last week by a Taleban team to
>Tehran, IRNA said, quoting ``informed sources.''
> Shi'ite Moslem Iran has been concerned about the advances of the Sunni
>Moslem Taleban and Iranian media have said Pakistan set up the fundamentalist
>militia and Saudi Arabia funded it.
> Iran has urged the Taleban and other rival factions to end Afghanistan's
>bloody civil war through a power-sharing deal with Kabul which Tehran
>recognises as the country's legal government.
> The newspaper Jomhuri Eslami said on Thursday Iranian border guards shot
>into the air to push back a group of 50 Afghan Taleban militiamen who crossed
>into Iran last week.
> The men had entered a border area 120 km (75 miles) east of Birjand in
>eastern Iran to gather firewood and refused to leave, claiming the area
>belonged to Afghanistan, the paper said.
> Afghan border guards later repeated the claim in a meeting with their
>Iranian counterparts, it added.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 08:01 Thu Jan 04 EXP: :00 Sun Jan 07
>
>
> Iran says U.S. covert plan threatens world order
> TEHRAN, Jan 4 (Reuter) - Iran warned on Thursday that no country in the
>world would be safe if Washington was allowed to go ahead with a covert action
>plan against Tehran.
> ``If moves such as the (U.S.) actions against Iran become prevalent in
>international relations, no country would be safe,'' state-run Tehran radio
>said in a commentary.
> ``If the...United Nations does not stop Washington's wilful acts, there is
>a risk that other states would also ignore international laws and a kind of
>anarchy would become dominant in international relations,'' the radio said.
> It was referring to reported moves in the U.S. Congress to set up a $20
>million covert action plan against Iran.
> Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati said the covert action plan and
>U.S. sanctions violated international law and the 1981 Algiers Declaration
>agreed to by Washington and Tehran and that Iran would take legal action
>against the United States, newspapers reported on Thursday.
> ``In the first article of the Algiers Declaration...the United States
>committed itself to cease all direct or indirect meddling in Iran's internal
>political and military affairs,'' said Velayati, quoted by the daily Salam.
> He was referring to accords reached by the two states in January 1981 which
>led to the release of over 50 Americans held hostage by Iranian student
>militants at the U.S. Embassy in Tehran for 444 days.
> Iran said earlier it might complain to the International Court of Justice
>in the Hague over the U.S. moves.
> Tehran radio said thousands of people on Thursday marched in the city of
>Zahedan in southeastern Iran to protest the U.S. plan.
> A rally against the ``American demon'' was held in the holy city of Qom in
>central Iran by Islamic scholars and theology students to protest the plan on
>Wednesday, the Iranian news agency IRNA said.
> The United States has been increasing its pressure on Iran since imposing a
>trade and investment ban against it in June.
> Washington accuses Tehran of fostering terrorism and seeking to develop
>nuclear weapons. Iran denies the charges.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 07:47 Thu Jan 04 EXP: :00 Sun Jan 07
>
>
> Baghdad warns Iran over rebel Kurds
> BAGHDAD, Jan 4 (Reuter) - An official Iraqi newspaper told Iran on Thursday
>to halt its contacts with rebel Kurds in northern Iraq immediately or face
>grave consequences.
> ``Iraq has repeatedly notified and warned the regime in Iran to stop
>playing with fire so that it would not burn its own fingers with the blast it
>is trying to ignite,'' Al-Thawra, mouthpiece of the ruling Baath party, said.
> It accused Tehran of direct support of ``infighting and rebellion'' in
>northern Iraq ruled by rival Kurdish factions running their local affairs
>outside the control of the government in Baghdad.
> ``We are closely monitoring and pursuing the series of violations and
>encroachments of the integrity of Iraq's sovereignty (by Iran) and its official
>contacts with outlawed gangsters,'' the paper said.
> Al-Thawra's was the second strong reaction from Iraq on a visit by a senior
>Iranian official to the area in a latest Iranian bid to bring peace between the
>warring Kurdish groups.
> The paper said Iran, which fought an eight-year war with Iraq in the 1980s,
>would be misled if it believed it could obtain concessions from Baghdad if they
>enhanced ties with Iraqi Kurds.
> U.N. officials and diplomats in Baghdad say Tehran has recently increased
>its influence in northern Iraq, providing direct support to Kurdish Islamists
>and a newly-formed group, Hizbollah (Party of God).
> Western warplanes stationed in southern Turkey guard the mutinous Kurdish
>enclave in northern Iraq, flying sorties over the area to deter possible
>attacks by Iraq's armed forces.
>
>=END=
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 15:15:53 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: Juliet Thompson's portrait (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:12:00 -0600 (CST)
From: aperry99@utdallas.edu
To: Baha'i Discuss
Subject: Juliet Thompson's portrait
Does anyone know how I can borrow a copy (pref. 11 x 17 or larger) of the
portrait of Abdu'l-Baha painted by Juliet Thompson? I need it for the
upcoming TV
taping in Reno, NV, in which I will be performing a monologue from
Juliet's diary. Joseph Galata is going to a great deal of trouble to
have a historic set built, etc. It would be so nice if we could borrow a
copy of the portrait, even a small one. Love, Anne Perry
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:01:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: "Marguerite K. Gipson"
Cc: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Re: Plan from the Universal House of Justice (fwd)
Ya Baha' ul abha
On Tue, 2 Jan 1996, Marguerite K. Gipson wrote:
> Wow! That was quick.. It made it rounds to all the email forums...
>
> Margreet
>
------------------------------------------------
| "O SON OF SPIRIT! |
Robert Green | My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, |
rlg0001 | kindly and radiant heart, that thine may |
@jove.acs.unt.edu | be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable |
| and everlasting." - Baha'u'llah |
------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 16:00:14 PST
Subject: sdj and Robert
To: talisman@indiana.edu,
Robert Johnston
Dear Robert,
Let me add my welcome to your project.
Also, I really like the introductory paragraphs for each section.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/04/96
Time: 16:00:14
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Mixed Messages
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 19:00:11 EST
Cc: theos-l@vnet.net
Another post commenting on similarities between Baha'i and
Theosophy, this time their alternating respect and contempt for
the "outside world."
Baha'is and their institutions often seem very keen to be
accepted by outsiders. Much emphasis is placed on Baha'i being
the newest world religion, growing rapidly, aiming to reconcile
diverse faiths, supporting the United Nations and all such
cooperative endeavors. This kind of p.r. says very
emphatically "we want a place at the table; we want to
belong." And yet the very same people and institutions will
immediately turn around and heap contempt on the world they
sometimes seem to want to belong to. As seen in a recent
letter from the Universal House of Justice, they talk about
non-Baha'is as "rejecters" and envision an Armageddon-like
conflict in which Baha'i wins out over all the wicked
non-Baha'is in the world: shades of Waco, Jonestown or the
Solar Temple. This two-facedness vis-a-vis the modern secular
world, admiration and respect alternating with contempt and
visions of destruction, can only evoke ambivalent responses
from the world around them.
Theosophists have steadily progressed in making their presence
more known in the world for about 20 years now. One book,
Sylvia Cranston's, seemed designed to bring maximum public
attention to Blavatsky and Theosophy. And in the wake of its
publication, that's exactly what occurred, although much of the
attention went to subsequent books with a less flattering
image. Now we see the same kind of ambivalence within
Theosophy as within Baha'i. After valuing the attention and
respect of the modern secular world and working hard to get it,
success seems to have brought despair rather than celebration.
A few less than worshipful books and articles have produced a
furious volley of denunciatory letters. A very large ad in the
New York Times Book Review actually accused that publication of
hostile bias against Theosophy. (This by an individual
Theosophist). More recently, there has been a suggestion from
a Theosophical leader that the "opposing forces" of the
Brothers of the Shadow have been influencing Newsweek, Wired,
the New York Times Book Review, etc. to attack Blavatsky.
The ambivalence in both these movements seems to be based on a
very faulty assumption about publicity and the world, or rather
two:
1) We have the right to be the object of intense interest by
the outside world, to have our historical and social
significance appreciated, to have our values and teachings
examined.
BUT
2) The world has no right to focus intense interest on us, our
significance, values, and teachings, UNLESS IT IS ON TERMS
CHOSEN BY US. Any criticism, no matter how mild, is an
outrageous violation of our spiritual integrity, and must be
rejected passionately. If we cannot get both keen interest and
uncritical acceptance from the "world outside" we will denounce
it as wicked and not deserving of our elevating presence.
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 01:20:15 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Reform/Baha Journalism-From Sonja
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Juan thanks!
1)Your posting where you discuss LSA (lack of) accountibility made
me feel happier about my own situation in a community of 9 Bahais
where, the very idea of discussing the functioning of the assembly in an
assembly meeting has been impossible to achieve.
Reading your posting made me think, ok, I'll keep trying. It's important
because one day there might be masses of Bahais.
I think in the end its a question of attitude, I do (perhaps naively)
believe that even a community as large as LA could solve its
difficulties if the community/LSA really wanted to.
But, then perhaps the issue is as you have indicated, one of general
Bahai attitudes towards the institutions. We have to stop being
frightened of them, and start respecting them by questioning the way
things are. And Bahais have to stop telling each other that it is wrong
to ask questions.
2)I agree, I don't see signs of real Bahai journalism, but the fact that
Arts Dialogue (a quarterly on the Arts), is free from review, means that
I can feel proud of our NSA, and the fact that I don't have to worry
about something being censored, means I can ask non-Bahais to write
for me without worry. It would be too much to say that Arts Dialogue
is cutting edge-it isn't, but we are dealing with issues of importance
about the arts, of interest to Bahais at large, and to artists interested in
culture and crossing the art disciplines.
Funnily, the longer I've been involved with Arts Dialogue, the less I
can call it a Bahai Arts quarterly, because it seems to me, now that I
have no idea what a Bahai Arts quarterly is, and any time someone uses
the word Bahai Art, what I picture is uncreative sentiment.
in appreciation,
Sonja
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:40:27 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: query
I have written the following, and my editor has asked me how I know.
"The disinterment of bodies is not practised by Baha'is unless required by
civil law. When it is undertaken it should be done with respect."
I haven't a clue as to where I got this, but it is not likely that I
would make it up. Does anybody know my source? It is surely a letter of
the Guardian or the House of Justice.
Thanks for the help.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 16:40:36 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: American Bahai ?i.e.Admin.
Thu, 4 Jan 1996, Dave10018@aol.com wrote:
> As things stand now, we can only
>talk to each other, and our utterences are predictable, boring and sterile.
Thank God I fell in with Talisman! I have been in Eureka, California for a
year now and I feel as if I'm going mad --- everything here is *predictable,
boring and sterile*. I came from Western Colorado, where I became a Baha'=
=ED
four years ago. Perhaps it is the independant spirit or rugged
individualism of the mountain west but there, at least, we spoke our mind
and engaged in frank but loving discussion about the Faith, ourselves, and
the future. Not to mention you could get a deepening going at the drop of a
hat or the opening of a book! I'm bored to tears with the "go along --- get
along" attitude I encounter here.
> I
>can hardly explain to family and friends why I should be interested in the
>Faith, nevermind explaining how it might have something for them. We are so
>inward turning and smug as to make ourselves rediculous.
Personally, I do not emphasize the "social" principles of the Faith and only
enunciate them if directly asked to do so. I view the journey along the
path of Baha as spiritual self enlightenment. Through the growth this
provides I (hopefully we) see that the only way to survive in this world is
to treat each other with respect and dignity. I do not need to like you but
I need to love and respect the beauty of the miraculous spiritual being that
you are.
> if i introduce a
>friend to the local Baha'is, i am embarrassed by their overanxious and=
niave
>attempts to promote the faith. =20
I solve this by following Shoghi Effendi's guidance in "The Advent of Divine
Justice". On pages 42 - 44 (51 - 52 in the newer small paperback) Shoghi
Effendi gives us what I call the *9 let hims*. He begins with:
"Having on his own initiative, and undaunted by any hindrances with which
either friend or foe may, unwittingly or deliberately, obstruct his path,
resolved to arise and respond to the call of teaching, let him carefully
consider every avenue of approach which he might utilize in his personal
attempts to capture the attention, maintain the interest, and deepen the
faith, of those whom he seeks to bring into the fold of his Faith. "
He then follows with 9 steps to achieve this goal. Interestingly enough,
introducing the *seeker* to the Baha'=ED community is # 8 on the list:
"Let him, as soon as that stage has been attained, introduce him to the body
of his fellow-believers, and seek, through constant fellowship and active
participation in the local activities of his community, to enable him to
contribute his share to the enrichment of its life, the furtherance of its
tasks, the consolidations of its interests, and the coordination of its
activities with those of its sister communities."
Step # 9 is to continue to help the person until he will arise on his own to
teach, uphold the laws and principls of the Faith.
Believe me, I understand the frustration many of you have concerning the
functioning of the Faith. Though I have only been a Baha'i for four years I
was raised in a Baha'i family. My parents became Baha'is in 1953 and had to
pass an inquisition board which included reading several books, writing book
reviews, passing oral exams, and writing a thesis about why they wanted to
be Baha'is. I became a Baha=ED *inspite * of the people because it is the
Truth. Always remember that the Faith is a growing, evolving, and
advancing. Those who think of it as a rigid, static body of ways and means
are short sighted at best and delude at worst. Was the Faith brought to
19th century Persia because it was the flower of human achievement? I think
not. Was the American Baha'i community given the task of developing the
Administrative Order because we are such able administrators? I think not!
Many Baha'is go on about the wonderful Baha'i community. I, like some of
you, don't see it yet. But this should not deter us from advancing toward
it. It is out there and it is what we will make it.
>david taylor
>
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lies." JB
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:04:01 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "K. Paul Johnson" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Mixed Messages
Dear Paul,
You wrote:
As seen in a recent
>letter from the Universal House of Justice, they talk about
>non-Baha'is as "rejecters" and envision an Armageddon-like
>conflict in which Baha'i wins out over all the wicked
>non-Baha'is in the world: shades of Waco, Jonestown or the
>Solar Temple.
I saw a documentary on the Jonestown thing on TV the other night. Pretty
frightening stuff. And at that point I though that the dissident element
within the Baha'i Faith might be performing some kind of useful service in
creating a super-critical attitude towards all forms of authority... so
that if our own Jimmy J. stepped up to the podium we would recognise him
and throw rotten fruit at him, and so on... However, despite this fleeting
thought, I -- as you know -- remain one of those who advocate reasoned and
loving obedience towards the institutions of the Faith...
To compare the Faith with Jimmy Jones's "socialist", "Christian" sect is, I
think, less useful than likening every human being to Adolf Hitler because
of species commonality... Blind obedience is not the game. Surveys will
show that Baha'is are better educated than members of other world
religions. And, as you will appreciate, educated people have highly
developed critical/rational minds...
But, I figure that no matter what I write here, your reservations
concerning the Faith will probably remain. And that's OK with me...so long
as you are happy.
Ordinarily,
Robert.
=END=
[end of 1/4/96 session]
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