Talisman Bahai Archives Jan. 5-8, 1996
Jan 5-8, 1996
Talisman emails received 1/5/96
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Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 19:03:08 -0700
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: a poem, isms, wasms and some tangled thoughts on Talisman.
Some time ago I posted the following poem on another Baha'i list.
I'd retrieved it while discarding the burdensome musings and psychomachia
of my past. A number of people appreciated it. I thought I'd post it here by
way of a preamble.
SHIRIN
Am I being foolish
to keep this photograph
of you?
I never knew you.
It's strange to me
that I should feel this grief;
and long to turn back time
and meet you
face to face;
It's strange
to think you might have known me
or wanted to:
to think you could have taught me
something
that the thought of how you died
could not betray.
I've been told that Shiraz
is a flower perpetually in bloom,
that hyacinths can weep,
that you used to keep a single blossom
in your room
and every garden in Shiraz
longed to be the birth place
of your chosen one.
But I am far removed,
Like Majnun seeking Lali in the dust,
and you are not a photograph, Shirin.
I cannot picture you.
I cannot look deep
into those eyes
all seeing and forever blind:
or heal the neck, bruised
by the noose of bigotry and hate.
Shiraz has plucked the fairest
petals from its stem
and you, Shirin Dalvand,
but one of ten.
Gordon McFarlane
1986
The scholars may smash the rocks to smithereens with the hammers of
their intellect, The ignorant may "seek the Lord of Lords in the dust". But
even the heaftiest chunk of granite is nothing more than a speck of dust
when compared to the object of the quest. It seems to me that some of us (I
include myself) become overly attatched to our speck of dust and lose sight
of the object.
Even that Pompous Ass Newton confessed -
"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem
to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself
in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary,
whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."
Methinks Newt was a romantic and a mystic at heart.
Don't get me wrong. I have been thorougly enjoying gathering specks
of dust, pebbles and boulders from Talisman (it's becoming an addiction),
and there are indeed boulders and "gallon measures" here. But I keep
thinking of three things;
1. "Knowlege is a single point, but the ignorant have multiplied it." (From
the Seven Valleys- attributed to Muhammad)
2. "Human perversity makes divisions of that which by nature is one and
simple . . . and in attempting to obtain part of that which has no parts,
succeeds in getting neither the part - which is nothing - nor the whole,
which they do not seek." (Boethius)
3. And Bell's theorem which I have absolutely no understanding of save what
I've read in Nick Herberts "Quantum Reality" and Anna F. Lemkow's "The
Wholeness Principle" but I often find that thinking about something which I
can't possibly understand often leads me to a clearer understanding of
something I otherwise might not have thought about.
To my rather undisciplined mind, the ultimate aim of Baha'i
Scholarship, as opposed to Scholarship generally, should be the knitting
back together of the fragments of "that which by nature, is one and simple",
and refocussing on that "primal pont". We may gather all the dust and
pebbles we desire along the way.
There were several postings by Quanta Dawnlight in late December
that I thought, at the time, were like fresh drops of water on parched soil.
(I did say a prayer for your that Friday Quanta, as you requested)
She made 5 points which I wholehearteldy agree with and which I feel merit
re-posting. I'll resist the urge to elaborate on them as I think she stated
them quite well.
1. People whose concern's meant to be building a more spiritual society
are side-tracked with systemic issues only.
2. unless and until we as human beings recognize our true nature and
mission in life, everything we do to improve systems will be futile.
3. It is ironic that those who were oppressed want to use the same tools of
the oppressors to achieve the same goals that they dislike in their oppressors.
4. We have to challenge the very foundations of thought in this country.
(and all other countries)
5. The true Teacher is more interested in the progress of the students and
not so much how they adore Him.
With regard to Quanta's comment on "isms" I'm inclined to think
that the study of "ism's" is fine as long as we bear in mind that every
"ism" is destined to become a "wasm".
Re. Freedom of expression -
I too have often felt stifled, slighted, unappreciated,
misunderstood etc. by the Baha'i Community. One event stands out in my mind
particularly. In the late 80's I coordinated, and participated in, a
series of public affairs conferences (Network 92). On one occasion, I had
made a presentation (not a particularly memorable or polished performance)
and was followed by one of those Mr. Feelgood speakers which Linda spoke
about in her infamous "Trained Bear" posting of December 19th. At the
break, I was approached by a gentleman with a Baha'i smile and a mean spirit
(my perception at the time), who informed me of his displeasure at having to
sit through my interminable rambling and that it offended him that I hadn't
allowed Mr. Feelgood more time. This was a very important part of my
Bahai education and once my bruised ego had recuperated I gained from it.
While there are those among us who often feel like shouting (in the words of
Hamlet's mother) "More matter, with less art". There are others who desire
"less matter, with more art". Finding the balance in this, as in anything,
is a difficult challenge for some. I resolved to never again attempt to
speak on such a broad topic without a written text to keep me on track. (In
all fairness, on this occasion, Mr. Feelgood did surpass me in both matter
and art).
While I have been accused at different times of being too
"intellectual", "anti-intellectual", "confused", "simplistic",
"impractical", "pragmatic", "naieve", "self righteous", "apologetic",
"arrogant", "new-agey", "conservative" "timid", "tedious", "self indulgent",
"much of airhead" etc. I don't feel that my rights, or my freedom of
expression have ever been impinged upon by anything other than my own ego;
certainly not by the institutions of the Faith.
Again, my apologies for cluttering you mailboxes with this stuff.
It's a nasty habit of mine.
LBG's
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Mixed Messages
To: Robert Johnston
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 20:54:52 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Robert Johnston:
>
> To compare the Faith with Jimmy Jones's "socialist", "Christian" sect is, I
> think, less useful than likening every human being to Adolf Hitler because
> of species commonality... Blind obedience is not the game. Surveys will
> show that Baha'is are better educated than members of other world
> religions. And, as you will appreciate, educated people have highly
> developed critical/rational minds...
Alas, the Temple Solaire members were a quite highly educated
group, for all the good it did them. What I'm comparing is
simply the expectation, communicated from the leaders to the
followers, of a grand and climactic confrontation between "us"
and "the world." Jones conveyed this; as did Koresh; whatever
my reservations about Theosophy I've never seen a hint of such
Armageddonism in it.
>
> But, I figure that no matter what I write here, your reservations
> concerning the Faith will probably remain.
Some reservations are unchangeable; put much of the Aqdas and
Bayan in that category. But my reservations about the
direction the Faith seems to be headed can be changed, rather
easily and quickly, as soon as there are indications of a
change of direction. The resuscitation of the Encyclopedia,
for example, seems like a good sign.
And that's OK with me...so long
> as you are happy.
Indeed I am, after a rather spotty 1995, now that a new writing
project is in the works.
Cheers
Paul
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Baha'i Ombudsman & Tribunal
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 21:38:04 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
I have just been informed that one Talismanian (whose name I will
keep discreet) has recently been threatened with the removal of his rights
if he posts anything on the Dialogue affair.
Therefore, I will say no more about Dialogue. Now I shall abstract
some of the core issues involved, and ask four fundamental questions about
Justice:
(1) The beloved Master states that human rights (or equality of
rights) is one of the fundamental principles of the Faith of Baha'u'llah.
Does the Baha'i Faith officially support *The Universal Declaration
on Human Rights*? If so, should the Faith adhere to them? Or do human
rights, as defined by international law, not apply within the Baha'i
Faith? Is the Baha'i Administration not bound by international law?
(2) Baha'u'llah endorsed the British model of parliamentary democracy.
Does this argue for a secular government within a Baha'i Commonwealth? If
not, when will our Administration, in the course of its evolution, begin to
assimilation some of the elements of parliamentary democracy?
(3) In the interests of safeguarding Justice, is it not now the time
to consider the creation of a Baha'i Tribunal, or at least a national
Ombudsman?
(4) When Baha'u'llah and the Guardian spoke about the necessity of
having a free press, did They mean only in the secular world--and not
within the Baha'i Faith? If so, what precisely is the *pattern for a
future society* that we conceive ourselves to be evolving?
These are questions at the level of principle. Of course, we are
free to discuss them with no fear of reprisal.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 20:07:56 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: prayer
Re.
>"The Baha'i writings say that the impulse to pray is natural," Does
anybody have any idea what I might have been citing?
>john walbridge
This may be totally unrelated, but I found it rather a coincidence
that earlier this week I had been reading pages 246-247 of Promulgation of
Universal Peace (A.B's talk delivered in Dublin 08/05/129 re. praying
"potentially" etc. and wondering what the difference between praying for,
wishing or hoping for, or striving to obtain, something is. There is also
our natural impulse and capacity to question - to seek answers - to figure
out what the hell we're doing here. Is that praying? I'm not quite sure
what "praying potentially" means or if it implies prayer is a "natural
impulse" but I'm inclined to interpret it that way.
On a personal note, I have been in several situations where I've
found praying was a natural impulse even when I was not particularly sure
if it worked; Once when I was in danger of drowning and once when I was
dreadfully sick, and stranded in the middle of nowhere on a hot August day.
In the second circumstance, after praying, for no apparent reason I took a
couple of small packets of salt out of my back pack and ate them - that
answered my prayer. Seemed like a natural impulse.
Good luck in retreiving your source!
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:22:43 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Resurrection and Renewal .by Abbas Amanat .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
I have just returned from an enjoyable short holiday . Let me say for
the record that one of the more objectionable statements in Abbas
Amanat's book is his description of the actions of the Bab at His
martyrdom as the panic of the condemned . I have no objection to
serious history students reading the book but I stand by my orginal
comments quoted in part by Juan , it is a book written from a
non-religious perspective . The Bab I do not accept was a result of the
social conditions in Iran in the 19th century , nor would I imagine any
other avowed believer in the Faith of the Twin Blessed Ones .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:30:22 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Donna Katich Latest News .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
Donna was released from hospital today . She has to attend speech
therapy but she is walking . Prayers still needed.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 96 21:27:15
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Reform/Baha Journalism-From Sonja
<
To: Talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: More queries
Sorry to impose on you all again, but does anybody know
1) Whether, and if so where, there is a source saying that the obligatory
prayers may be said aloud or silently.
2) the bibliographical data on the issue of dialogue magazine devoted to
attack the article Linda and I wrote on the rights of men in Baha'i law?
3) Is visiting the Shrine of Baha'u'llah ever referred to in Arabic or
Persian as "hajj"?
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 20:22 PST
To: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: prayer
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Gordon, bereft of an oldies station, was wondering
"what the difference between praying for,
>wishing or hoping for, or striving to obtain, something is"
Burl reminds him that Dusty Springfield revealed long ago that wishin and
hopin' and prayin' and thinkin' won't do -- you got to tell Him that you
care, do the things He wants to do, wear your hair just for Him (see
relevant Aqdas passage), and, ultimately: Just Do It and "you will be His."
Again, we see that deeds are the most potent form of prayer...thoughts must
be manifest in action. Sometimes all we want is a action. People go looking
for action all the time. Some are addicted to action, and He wants action
from us, not simply wishes, hopes, etc. But striving is part of the process
of doing it. Sort of like running bases in baseball. You strive for first,
second, third until you slide home! That is action! So are the Die Hard movies.
Hope this helps.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: "Steven Kolins"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:43:49 EST
Subject: Quanta's message
Hi, this is Quanta!
Our foreign language lab server is down so, I am using Steven's
account to write the following. I love to hear analogies.
1) "The autotrophic cells in plants put in a long day converting CO2
and H2O into carbohydrates, fats, proteins.."
"The energy by this huge task is provided by the sun.."
2) "light emitted by an excited atom, reveales energy states within
the atom..."
3) ..each photon possesses energy that is proportional to the
frequency of the light..."
4) ".. only the light that absorbed can be effective in initiating a
reaction..."
5) "..one photon is sufficient to start one molecule reacting.."
---Slaubaugh et al, 1973
Analogies anyone?
Special guidance,
from beloved scientist
is warmly welcomed.
Perhaps a synthesis
with scholars' thoughts
of variant principles,
be most beneficial
for our minds.
love, learn, serve
Quanta Dawn-Light (*_*)
All I need is Freedom of spirit, Chastity of soul, and Purity of
heart. A pov is not even secondary.
=END=
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 96 22:00:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Amanat's book
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
The real problem with this book is actually not in the book
itself but with lack of adequate literature on the subject of the
Babi Dispensation.
It is true that Amanat draws from a wide range of documents to
build his arguments, but with exception of possibly 3 believers
on Talisman, the rest of folks are unfamiliar with these original
documents and as such have no way of judging for themselves the
accuracy of the arguments. Therein lies the problem.
When the vast majority of people say they like or dislike the
book, with all due respect, I take that as an emotional reaction
rather than an informed comment based on first hand experience
with the large body of the sources used in the book. Such people
are not at fault; most of these sources are not widely available.
This results is people having no independent frame of reference
for evaluating the accuracy of the book, so they look to those
"in know" to tell them how they should feel about this book or
they take comfort in the author's credential as proof that
everything in there must be accurate.
Well, I don't think either of these approaches is all that
satisfactory.
My suggestion is to publish all the primary source documents so
people can judge for themselves about the voracity of the
arguments.
Let me give an example. John mentioned the Declaration of the
Bab as an example of the type of challenging thing in this book.
Amanat presents three different versions of what led to Mulla
Husayn's acceptance (actually, while Amanat doesn't say so, this
entire section of his book is straight copy from Zuhuru'l-Haqq,
vol 3, but that's a different story). Two of these versions come
from what I consider to be inferior sources of questionable
status. But this is not mentioned in the book. He simply
presents all three versions as if their sources are all equally
valid.
However, why should you believe *me* when I say two of these
sources are inferior. You must be able to draw your own
conclusions. And the only way you can do so is to have the
primary documents available to you in the *original* language as
well as English translation.
So, good people, next time you read such a book ask yourself:
Have I been given all the facts?!
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 00:12:14 -0500
To: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: mashriq endowments?
Dear Sen ,
What follows is my feeble attempt to explore the funding of Mashriq. Did
you sneak into our LSA meeting on Dec. 24 . We consulted about the creation
of a Trust Fund to be used in perpetuity for the creation , maintenance and
promotion of the activities associated with the Mashriqu l Adhkar . This was
the central topic of community consultation at Feast on Dec 31 as well.
I think clearly that the one of the responsibilities of the Houses of
Justice is to support , financially , the Mashriqu l Adhkar.
In the Ishraqat 9th Ishraq ( or illumination :) ) " religion
bestoweth upon man the most precious of all gifts, offereth the cup of
prosperity , imparteth eternal life, amd showereth imperishable benefits upon
mankind . It behoveth the chiefs and rulers of the world , and in particular
the Trustees of God's House of Justice , to endeavor to promote to the utmost
of their power to safeguard it promote its interests and exalt its station in
the eyes of the world." I would suggest that this religion that is to be
promoted is a life of worship and service to humankind and intimately
connected to the Mashriq .
Also the 9th leaf of Kalimat . " Blessed is the ruler who succoureth the
captive , and the rich one who careth for the poor, and the just one who
secureth from the wrong doer the rights of the down trodden , and happy the
trustee who observeth that which the Ordainer , the Ancient of days hath
prescribed unto him."
I see two possible meanings here . One the "trustee" being referred to
is a member of the House of Justice and 2) given the entire phrase that it
could be a person as is , a ruler , rich one , just one . The second one
opens the possibility of an independent "trustee."
This makes sense to me because of the 4th principle in Tab. of the World
about education: " Everyone , whether man or woman , should hand over to a
trusted person a portion of what he or she earns . . .for the training and
education of children , to be spent with the knowledge of the Trustees of the
House of Justice . A distinction is made here between the "trusted person "
and the Trustees of the House of Justice. Educational institutions are one
of the dependencies of the Mashriqu l Adhkar so this assumes a form of
funding by private contributions as in "trusts " or "endowmentrs" . Also the
7th Ishraq is interesting with regard to the education issue . here again
there is a distinction i think " the Trustees are then to take from him that
which is required for their instruction if he be wealthy , and if not the
matter devolveth upon the House of Justice." It would seem here that the
"Trustees are someone or some body other than the house of Justice . If so
then it implies a source of funding .
That a distinction exists between these institutional complexes
derives in part from my read in the Glad Tidings 13th Glad -Tidings "
Matters of state should be referred to the House of Justice, but acts of
worship must be observed according to what God hath revealed in His Book . "
Let me go to one of my favorite Mashriq u l Adhkar passages from Shoghi
Effendi in Baha i Administration : " It should be borne in mind that the
central Edifice of the Mashriqu l Adhkar, round which in the fullness of time
shall cluster such institutions of social services as shall afford refief to
the suffering , sustenance to the poor , shelter to the wayfarer solace to
the bereaved , and education to the ignorant . .. To them will the
Mashriqu l Adhkar symbolize the fundamental verity underlying the Bahai Faith
, that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine revelation
is not final but progressive . . And thus having recognized in Baha u llah
the source whence this celestial Light proceeds , ( NOTE THIS ONE ) they
will iressistibly feel attracted to seek the shelter of His House, and
congregate therein . . to render homage to God . .and to exalt and magnify
the name of His Messengers and Prophets ."
This House is of course the House of Worship in which they will seek
shelter. And as the recognition of this "LIght" the Guardian refers to
*Dawned* upon Baha u llah in the Siyah Chal in the form of the Maid of
Heaven and is its Source therefore I have suggested that the House of
Worship is the House of the Maiden, the Home of the Divine Feminine and that
all the acts of social sevice asociated with this Institution are acts of
praise to the maid of Heaven . Whopps got a little carried away .
The Guardian continues " Divorced from the social , humanitarian ,
educational and scientific pursuits centering around the Dependencies of the
Mashriqu L Adhkar .. It cannot afford lasting satisfaction to the
worshipper , much less to humanity in general , unless and until translated
into the dynamic and disinterested service to the cause of humanity which it
is the *supreme privilege* of the dependencies of the Mashriqu l Adhkar to
promote ."
You will notice here that the supreme privilege belongs to the Mashriq
not to committee work . And as Baha u llah has commanded the building of
Houses of Worship it would be logical to conclude that they would have
sources of funding otherwise a Divine command has been issued without the
means to fulfill it which would be contrary to the mercy and justice of God .
One of these dependencies has to do with "Humanitarian service . When
one sees the comments of Abdul Baha about philanthropy, In P.U.P. ,which a
dictionary will note is almost a synonym for "humanitarian" especially in an
early 2oth century context it is easy to envision one of the sources of
funding for the Mashriq being the philanthropic contributions or "endowments
" of individuals which creates independent financial sources for the support
of the Mashriq .
Abdul Baha has a number of fascinating comments about philanthropy ; one
most meaningful to me is the following in Paris Talksp. 180 " while comenting
on the four kinds of love - this harkens back to his commentary on the Hidden
Treasure hadith but I digress . He says: " The second is the love that flows
from man to God . This is Faith , attraction to the Divine, enkindlement, .
. . illumination ( ishraq ?)with the lights of the Kingdom. This love is the
origin of all philanthropy; . ." -- Note here the similarity to the
Guardians words about the "Light " and seeking the "shelter" of the House of
Worship . This experience is what stimulates the desire to engage in
philanthropic endeavors which are associated with the Hose of Worship as the
central shrine of the Mashriq . There fore we could assume that the "act" of
philanthropy will arise naturally as a result of "close daily contact" with
the House of Worship and that individuals will be disposed to trip,all over
themselves to provide the humanitarian (philanthropic) means to realize the
purposes of the Mashriqu l Adhkar . It is after all the other half of the
'twin" inseperable duties of the Kitab i Aqdas - recognition and observance.
The act or acts of observance are acts of *Remembrance* as they are born of
the love of God and constitute acts of Praise to the One True God . So there
will, of course, be support for the Mashriq . The support of the Mashriq is
as inseperable as recognition from observance .
And i can not resist a final comment from the Guardian on Mashriq
" . . And of all the institutions that stand associated with His Holy
Name , surely none save the institution of the Mashriqu l Adhkar can most
adequately provide the essentials of Bahai worship and service, both so vital
to the regeneration of the world . Therein lies the secret of the loftiness,
of the potency , of the unique position of the Mashriq u l Adhkar as one of
the outstanding institutions conceived by Baha u llah . "
Looks like community is more than administration afrer all . Being
intensely interested in the regeneration of the world it is probably no
surprise that I am intensely interested in the Mashriq . --- the House of
the Maiden. And as the Aqdas commands "Build ye Houses of Worship throughout
the lands.." To steal from Nike, hey lets "Just do it ."
In Her service,
Terry
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 19:14:46 PST
Subject: re: truth and unity
To: talisman@indiana.edu,
Robert Johnston
Dear Robert,
Thanks.
I received other positive feedback on this one. But I lost my copy
and can't remember all I said. Do you have a copy of my posting (as I
always keep copies of yours -- ever since we had our bonding fight.).
Could you forward?
Ever so much,
Philip
On Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:15:11 +1300 (NZDT) Robert Johnston wrote:
>Dear Philip,
> Re:
>>I suspect a correspondence between the way people conduct their
>>private lives and the way they imagine public life. If someone says
>>we should trust the NSA and not discuss their decisions, I could
>>imagine them living the same rules toward their spouse.
>
>Was thinking of a similar kind of correspondence this morning. Was
>thinking that saying that the House was "mistaken" was like a child
telling
>a second child (whom he hardly knows) that the second child's father
(even
>less well-known) was wrong to make him do his homework or
somesuch...
>
>In his "Nichomachean Ethics" Aristotle said that politicians could
use a
>little psychology....
>
>Robert.
>
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/04/96
Time: 19:14:46
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 19:19:25 PST
Subject: RE: coming out of obscurity
To: talisman@indiana.edu, LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Your clarity and straightforwardness, coupled with, what I sense is,
a mystical openness (does it manifest in women in an earthiness as
it seems to manifest in men as air, fire, or water?)... well, any
way, hurrah again for your voice in these conversations.
Your values in all of this do keep me hanging on. I'm here hoping
what I hope is true is true... despite the fustiness in the higher
circles and the fundamentalism locally in many whom, though dear and
precious to me as individuals, I would never trust with my heart.
thank you again.
And by the way, I've lost my copy of the Peter Khan talk. Actually, I
became impatient with it and erased it. But now it keeps coming at
me both in conversation from the fundies and now, from you. Do you
have a copy? Could you forward?
So very grateful,
Philip
On Thu, 4 Jan 96 10:26:18 EWT LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
wrote:
>If the Baha'i Faith is to come out of obscurity in the near future,
I fear that
>it will appear as another modern cult. The paranoia (so pronounced
in Peter
>Khan's recent talk) and the perpetual admonitions to tow the line,
to use
>proper wording and tone, to defer constantly to the institutions
make me wonder
>how on earth I ever would have become a Baha'i if I were presented
with the
>Faith for the first time today. It seems to bear no resemblance to
the
>religion I joined in my youth.
>
>It seems as if the institutions are suffering from claustrophobia.
Sometimes I
>think that the members live in a tiny village in some remote forest
and that
>they have lost touch with the rest of the world. They seemed locked
in a time
>warp, oblivious to the tremendous changes that have occurred in the
world over
>the past 30-40 years.
>
>I admire those who have decided to trudge on and stay true to the
ideals of the
>Faith; to look at the underlying principles and build on those. I
love Terry's
>ideas that we should be taking the development of devotional
practices into our
>own hands and not waiting for the institutions to tell us how to do
it.
>Religion is a growing, ever changing phenomenon which is constanly
shaped by
>its followers. This is a religion given to all of humankind. It
should appear
>to the world as that and not just as a little, exclusive cult.
Linda
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/04/96
Time: 19:19:25
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 96 22:47:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Hajj
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
John, who seems to be suffering at the hand of a cruel editor,
wrote:
> 3) Is visiting the Shrine of Baha'u'llah ever referred to in
> Arabic or Persian as "hajj"?
NO.
I wrote to the World Centre objecting, among other things, to the
translation of "hajj" as "pilgrimage" in the Kitab-i Aqdas, K32
and Q25. I proposed the term "Obligatory Pilgrimage". I further
objected to Note 54 as misleading as I believe the compiler(s) of
Note 54 had confused "hajj" with "ziyarat" (which is ordained in
K133). Abdu'l-Baha's Tablet quoted in N54 refers to "ziyarat" of
the Shrine of Baha'u'llah and not a "hajj". But now the Baha'i
world is confused thinking that actually there are 3 places of
"hajj", namely, the Twin Houses *and* the Shrine of Baha'u'llah,
whereas this is not so.
In short its respectfully suggest that:
1. N54 be modified by moving the Tablet of Abdu'l-Baha to N154.
2. K32 and Q25 be modified by replacing "pilgrimage" with either
"hajj" or "Obligatory Pilgrimage". (I now prefer "hajj".)
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: mashriq endowments?
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 0:40:18 EST
Cc: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl, talisman@indiana.edu
If one reads the speeches of the beloved Master in support of the
Baha'i House of Worship in Wilmette (before it was built, of course), we
hear that the FIRST thing the followers of any religion should do is to
build houses of worship. Since I don't have *Star of the West* handy, I
cannot quote any such statements.
Note that a Baha'i House of Worship is not the same thing as a
Baha'i Centre. I had high hopes, in the Four Year Plan, that the final
go-ahead for constructing local Houses of Worship might finally have
been granted. Spiritually, we have been obliged to do so ever since the
revelation of the Kitab-i-Aqdas.
The Baha'i Faith will achieve a breakthrough in its recognition as
a mainstream religion when we begin to build local Houses of Worship.
My brother-in-law, Behrouz Abadi, was Mr. Fariburz Sahba's assistant for
several months in the designing of the Terraces. Behrouz has himself
designed a very inexpensive House of Worship, elegant, attractive, and as
cheap to build as any Kingdom Hall.
With the enthusiasm this would generate, I foresee an explosion of
funds, such that support for the Arc would be maintained, while local
Houses of Worship were being built, in compliance with Baha'i law and the
wishes of the beloved Master.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: UHJ on Human Rights
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 0:24:47 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
In *The Promise of World Peace*, the Universal House of Justice states:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Universal
Declaration of Human Rights, the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, and the similar measures
concerned with eliminating all forms of discrimination based on race,
sex or religious belief; upholding the rights of the child; protecting
all persons against being subjected to torture; eradicating hunger and
malnutrition; using scientific and technological progress in the
interest of peace and the benefit of mankind--all such measures, if
courageously enforced and expanded, will advance the day when the
spectre of war will have lost its power to dominate international
relations. There is no need to stress the significance of the issues
addressed by these declarations and conventions.
_____________
Further on, the Guardian is quoted:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"A world community in which all economic barriers will have been
permanently demolished and the interdependence of capital and labour
definitely recognized; in which the clamour of religious fanaticism
and strife will have been forever stilled; in which the flame of
racial animosity will have been finally extinguished; in which a
single code of international law--the product of the considered
judgement of the world's federated representatives--shall have as its
sanction the instant and coercive intervention of the combined forces
of the federated units ...".
______________
And, finally:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The experience of the Baha'i community may be seen as an example of
this enlarging unity. It is a community of some three to four million
people drawn from many nations, cultures, classes and creeds, engaged
in a wide range of activities serving the spiritual, social and
economic needs of the peoples of many lands. It is a single social
organism, representative of the diversity of the human family,
conducting its affairs through a system of commonly accepted consul-
tative principles, and cherishing equally all the great outpourings of
divine guidance in human history. Its existence is yet another
convincing proof of the practicality of its Founder's vision of a
united world, another evidence that humanity can live as one global
society, equal to whatever challenges its coming of age may entail. If
the Baha'i experience can contribute in whatever measure to
reinforcing hope in the unity of the human race, we are happy to offer
it as a model for study.
_______________
COMMENTS
In the first excerpt, the Universal House of Justice stresses the
importance and necessity of *The Universal Declaration of Human Rights*.
In the second excerpt, the Guardian speaks of the inevitability of
*single code of international law*.
In the third excerpt, the Baha'i community is offered as a model.
International law has enshrined *The Universal Declaration of
Human Rights*, which the House appears to support. Baha'is are obliged to
obey their governments. This means local, national, and international.
Therefore, it seems obvious to me that we, as Baha'is, are bound by
international law. We are bound by *The Universal Declaration on Human
Rights*. The Baha'i community--including its Administration--is said to be
*a model of study* for a world at peace. This being the case, I submit
that the Baha'i Faith, its Administration, and we as Baha'is are
constrained to obey international law, which includes the full exercise
of human rights, especially the more neglected human rights which I have
already cited.
In the oft-quoted *The Unfoldment of World Civilization*, the
beloved Guardian states that, in a united world, *the personal freedom and
initiative of the individuals that compose them are definitely and
completely safeguarded.* I do not have a copy of *Baha'i Focus on Human
Rights* by Philip Hainsworth, but I would expect to find documentation in
it of support for human rights by the *Baha'i International Community*.
Perhaps someone could check there for further sources.
The point I wish to make is that the Baha'i Faith is legally
obliged and morally committed to observing *The Universal Declaration of
Human Rights*. Am I wrong? In presenting the Baha'i community as *a model
for study*, I think we had better be clear about human rights and begin to
acknowledge that the world will judge us by the very standards that we so
openly and publicly support.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 96 22:09 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Despots?
"As to the statement that the outcome of the Baha'i regligion is a return of
despotic rule...In one of the long tablets which is considered accessory to
the Kitab-i-Aqdas," He, Baha'u'llah has illustrated the form of
constitutional government and represenative assembly by the British
Government. The form of that great government has therefore met with His
approval and sanction. Consequently the fear that despotism will be restored
is caused by ignorance concerning the commandments of this Most Great
Manifestation...."
The Brilliant Proof, Mirza Ab'ul- Fadl (page 3 of 1949 abridged edition from
Baha'i Publishing Commitee [found in a box in Burl's basement])
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: 05 Jan 96 01:28:29 EST
From: Steven Scholl <73613.2712@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: A Modest Proposal: Background
Dear Talizens,
I have been off line for awhile, taking care of a sick family who now takes care
of sickly me. Was surprised to return to yet another call to open the file on
the dialogue affair.
First, I want to make it clear that Christopher Buck's calls for rehabilitating
me are deeply appreciated. Chris, as always, has his heart in the right place.
But for those of you who are new to the controversies surrounding dialogue
magazine, I want to make it clear that it is not really a matter of my personal
case that is at issue. I was not the only dialogue editor sanctioned and David
Langness has suffered more for his role in this affair than I. Tony Lee's pains
in the area of Baha'i publishing would fill several volumes in the Kalimat
Baha'i History Series. I was but one player on the stage of this little drama.
For those of you who have not guessed, I was the recipient of the UHJ letter of
21 June 1989. The first time this letter appeared on Talisman I was a bit taken
aback. I did not realize my personal correspondence had been digitalized. And I
was not sure how I felt about it being made public. I think this is the third
time the letter has been posted, usually as a way of saying, "See, those
dialogue folks were up to no good." So I am finally ready to--as Burl and some
other guy once said--break my silence on the matter.
I am looking for a computer version of 'A Modest Proposal' and will post it as
soon as it turns up. But for background, it may be helpful to read my letter
which provoked the House's letter to me of 21 June 1989.
My letter of 4 March 89 was an attempt to mend fences and find a means of
reconciling differences. I will let you all be the the judge of my ability to
find common ground. I was shocked and demoralised by the House's response, which
seemed then and today to be unfair and to have missed many of our basic
arguements. After receiving the letter, which I interpreted as an invitation to
voluntarily withdraw my Baha'i membership, I entered a long period of internal
exile. It has only been in the last year or so that I have become active in my
local Baha'i community.
Tomorrow I will post my response to the UHJ letter of 21 June 1989.
Modestly yours,
Steve Scholl
LETTER ON BEHALF OF THE DIALOGUE STAFF FROM STEVEN SCHOLL
4 March 1989
The Universal House of Justice
PO Box 155
31 001 Haifa
ISRAEL
Dear Friends,
We have received your letter of 29 December 1988 addressed to the Baha'is of the
United States and your cover letter to the National Spiritual Assembly noting
your concerns over our appeals and publishing activities. We are grateful to the
House of Justice for providing us with this statement on freedom of expression
and the role of the individual in relation to Baha'i institutions. We see this
document as the starting point for fresh consultations with the National
Spiritual Assembly to resolve our differences and proceed with our mutual goal
of advancing the Faith of Baha'u'llah in our country.
We note your concerns of the language of some of our appeal letters. We wish to
apologize for the use of intemperate and aggressive language in those letters.
Our appeals were written at a time of great pain and anguish over what we felt
was improper behavior by the National Assembly in handling our Baha'i rights.
We were especially concerned by the method of interrogation used by the National
Assembly's during its investigation and the consistent pattern of distortion
used by members of that body in depicting our activities. For example, National
Assembly members have continued to assert that dialogue's editor circulated "A
Modest Proposal" to "dozens and dozens of delegates" and this was the reason
given for the circulation of your e-mail letter of 8 March 1988 to national
convention delegates, Auxiliary Board members, and their assistants. This is
simply untrue. We are also aware of consistent attacks on our character
originating from members of the National Spiritual Assembly. We have tried to
overlook these slanderous accusations. However, the public airing of a number
of inaccurate and false statements about our publishing activities at the last
national convention has put us in a very difficult position. We have now been
forced in several instances to address the facts of our case and our appeals
when subscribers who have heard reports questioning our loyalty to the Faith
contact us about these wild rumors circulating throughout the American Baha'i
community. Because the rumors continue to circulate, we feel it is necessary to
seek further clarification from the House of Justice on certain aspects of our
situation.
First, it is our understanding the the limited administrative action taken
against four members of the dialogue staff (Payam Afsharian, David Langness,
Anthony Lee, and Steven Scholl) by removing their right to pilgrimage was taken
by the House of Justice. We request clarification on this action of the House
of Justice. We do not understand what led the House of Justice to take this
action and we would like to know how this treasured right of pilgrimage can be
regained.
Second, there is the matter of the circulation of the House of Justice's e-mail
letter of 8 March. Part of our earlier appeals to the House centered on the
concerns expressed by the House of Justice in this letter. We maintain that in
the specific incidents of the preparation, review, and publication plans for "A
Modest Proposal," the authors of the article and the editors of dialogue did not
violate any Baha'i law or policy and acted faithfully toward the letter and
spirit of Baha'i administrative procedure. It is our understanding that when a
Baha'i has been accused of wrongdoing or of violating Baha'i law, he or she has
the right to be fully informed of the charges made and the evidence on which
accusations of wrongdoing are being made. To this date, neither the House of
Justice or the National Spiritual Assembly have informed us of the bases or
evidence of wrongdoing made against us, or even the exact nature of the charges
made against us. We have requested this information from the National Spiritual
Assembly, but they declined to inform us of the specifics of their concerns with
us.
Is it possible for the House of Justice to clarify for us what exactly we have
done to violate Baha'i law and led to such severe actions by the House of
Justice towards members of our staff? We do recognize that we are not without
blame in these events. We acknowledge that over the years feelings of mistrust
have developed between members of our staff and members of the National
Spiritual Assembly. We have never, however, disobeyed the National Spiritual
Assembly on any conflict between us and have attempted to acquiesce with as much
radiance as possible whenever the National Assembly has made a decision that we
felt was wrong.
We would like to note in this regard that the House of Justice may not fully
understand our position due to our failure to adequately address our concerns in
our appeals. In your letter to the American Baha'is, you refer to those who
appeal on the grounds of western liberal democratic values and traditions. We
would simply like to note that the reason for our appeals was that we felt we
had been acting in accordance with all Baha'i laws, policies, and guidelines on
publishing in the preparation and publication of dialogue. It was on the basis
of Baha'i laws and Baha'i values that we made our appeals. We do acknowledge
that we stand both within the Baha'i Faith and within the wider tradition of
progressive or liberal western thought. But we are Baha'is first and foremost.
Indeed, we have maintained our commitment to Baha'u'llah and his new order
because we have fundamental critiques of the western liberal democratic
tradition, which are precisely those that you have so clearly pointed to in your
letter on freedom of expression. We agree that the Baha'i model of consultation
and Baha'i principles of unity and diversity and radiant submission to the will
of the majority view in community affairs are positive distinctions from the
methods of political discourse and affairs that dominate our country. Because
we are sickened by the corruption of American political and economic practices,
we adhere to the Baha'i spiritual principles of community development and
practice.
We do note, however, that Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha "took up" certain aspects
of the western liberal democratic tradition in their teachings. 'Abdu'l-Baha,
for example, noted that:
"Under an autocratic government, the opinions of men are not free, and
development is stifled; whereas in democracy, because thought and speech are not
restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world
of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech
prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may
give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable."
Freedom of expression is clearly the basis of meaningful consultation and hence
growth and development. It is our belief that meaningful consultation is not
possible today within our national community because adequate safeguards for
free expression by Baha'is are not maintained by our institutions. One of the
reasons dialogue has met with such an enthusiastic response within our community
is that Baha'is recognize it as an important step forward for the consulation
process within the American Baha'i community.
In our appeals we made clear our concerns with present-day Baha'i administrative
practices in this country and we will not address them further in this letter.
Despite our concerns, as well as our sadness at times with the progress of our
institutions, we remain firm in our faith that the Baha'i community and its
administration order is a beacon of hope to our fellow Americans. We seek to
improve the functioning of our institutions through our prayers, our local
community endeavors, and our publishing activities. We are cheered by your
explicit depiction of the positive role of a free press within the Baha'i
community. We continue to look forward to finding ways to reverse the negative
climate that surrounds our relationship with the National Spiritual Assembly and
are willing to take any steps that the House of Justice or the National Assembly
feels necessary, including to cease and desist all of our publishing activities
if either institution feels cessation of dialogue is in the best interests of
the Faith.
At this time, we only ask that a clarification of our status be made to the
believers through The American Baha'i. If dialogue is to continue and survive,
we feel it is vital for our status to be cleared up so as to quell the invidious
backbiting that is occurring within our community over our very existence.
With loving regards,
Steven Scholl
Editor
=END=
Date: 05 Jan 96 01:02:40 EST
From: Steven Scholl <73613.2712@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: A Modest Proposal: Background
Dear Talizens,
I have been off line for awhile, taking care of a sick family who now takes care
of sickly me. Was surprised to return to yet another call to open the file on
the dialogue affair.
First, I want to make it clear that Christopher Buck's calls for rehabilitating
me are deeply appreciated. Chris, as always, has his heart in the right place.
But for those of you who are new to the controversies surrounding dialogue
magazine, I want to make it clear that it is not really a matter of my personal
case that is at issue. I was not the only dialogue editor sanctioned and David
Langness has suffered more for his role in this affair than I. Tony Lee's pains
in the area of Baha'i publishing would fill several volumes in the Kalimat
Baha'i History Series. I was but one player on the stage of this little drama.
For those of you who have not guessed, I was the recipient of the UHJ letter of
21 June 1989. The first time this letter appeared on Talisman I was a bit taken
aback. I did not realize my personal correspondence had been digitalized. And I
was not sure how I felt about it being made public. I think this is the third
time the letter has been posted, usually as a way of saying, "See, those
dialogue folks were up to no good." So I am finally ready to--as Burl and some
other guy once said--break my silence on the matter.
I am looking for a computer version of 'A Modest Proposal' and will post it as
soon as it turns up. But for background, it may be helpful to read my letter
which provoked the House's letter to me of 21 June 1989.
My letter of 4 March 89 was an attempt to mend fences and find a means of
reconciling differences. I will let you all be the the judge of my ability to
find common ground. I was shocked and demoralised by the House's response, which
seemed then and today to be unfair and to have missed many of our basic
arguements. After receiving the letter, which I interpreted as an invitation to
voluntarily withdraw my Baha'i membership, I entered a long period of internal
exile. It has only been in the last year or so that I have become active in my
local Baha'i community.
Tomorrow I will post my response to the UHJ letter of 21 June 1989.
Modestly yours,
Steve Scholl
LETTER ON BEHALF OF THE DIALOGUE STAFF FROM STEVEN SCHOLL
4 March 1989
The Universal House of Justice
PO Box 155
31 001 Haifa
ISRAEL
Dear Friends,
We have received your letter of 29 December 1988 addressed to the Baha'is of the
United States and your cover letter to the National Spiritual Assembly noting
your concerns over our appeals and publishing activities. We are grateful to the
House of Justice for providing us with this statement on freedom of expression
and the role of the individual in relation to Baha'i institutions. We see this
document as the starting point for fresh consultations with the National
Spiritual Assembly to resolve our differences and proceed with our mutual goal
of advancing the Faith of Baha'u'llah in our country.
We note your concerns of the language of some of our appeal letters. We wish to
apologize for the use of intemperate and aggressive language in those letters.
Our appeals were written at a time of great pain and anguish over what we felt
was improper behavior by the National Assembly in handling our Baha'i rights.
We were especially concerned by the method of interrogation used by the National
Assembly's during its investigation and the consistent pattern of distortion
used by members of that body in depicting our activities. For example, National
Assembly members have continued to assert that dialogue's editor circulated "A
Modest Proposal" to "dozens and dozens of delegates" and this was the reason
given for the circulation of your e-mail letter of 8 March 1988 to national
convention delegates, Auxiliary Board members, and their assistants. This is
simply untrue. We are also aware of consistent attacks on our character
originating from members of the National Spiritual Assembly. We have tried to
overlook these slanderous accusations. However, the public airing of a number
of inaccurate and false statements about our publishing activities at the last
national convention has put us in a very difficult position. We have now been
forced in several instances to address the facts of our case and our appeals
when subscribers who have heard reports questioning our loyalty to the Faith
contact us about these wild rumors circulating throughout the American Baha'i
community. Because the rumors continue to circulate, we feel it is necessary to
seek further clarification from the House of Justice on certain aspects of our
situation.
First, it is our understanding the the limited administrative action taken
against four members of the dialogue staff (Payam Afsharian, David Langness,
Anthony Lee, and Steven Scholl) by removing their right to pilgrimage was taken
by the House of Justice. We request clarification on this action of the House
of Justice. We do not understand what led the House of Justice to take this
action and we would like to know how this treasured right of pilgrimage can be
regained.
Second, there is the matter of the circulation of the House of Justice's e-mail
letter of 8 March. Part of our earlier appeals to the House centered on the
concerns expressed by the House of Justice in this letter. We maintain that in
the specific incidents of the preparation, review, and publication plans for "A
Modest Proposal," the authors of the article and the editors of dialogue did not
violate any Baha'i law or policy and acted faithfully toward the letter and
spirit of Baha'i administrative procedure. It is our understanding that when a
Baha'i has been accused of wrongdoing or of violating Baha'i law, he or she has
the right to be fully informed of the charges made and the evidence on which
accusations of wrongdoing are being made. To this date, neither the House of
Justice or the National Spiritual Assembly have informed us of the bases or
evidence of wrongdoing made against us, or even the exact nature of the charges
made against us. We have requested this information from the National Spiritual
Assembly, but they declined to inform us of the specifics of their concerns with
us.
Is it possible for the House of Justice to clarify for us what exactly we have
done to violate Baha'i law and led to such severe actions by the House of
Justice towards members of our staff? We do recognize that we are not without
blame in these events. We acknowledge that over the years feelings of mistrust
have developed between members of our staff and members of the National
Spiritual Assembly. We have never, however, disobeyed the National Spiritual
Assembly on any conflict between us and have attempted to acquiesce with as much
radiance as possible whenever the National Assembly has made a decision that we
felt was wrong.
We would like to note in this regard that the House of Justice may not fully
understand our position due to our failure to adequately address our concerns in
our appeals. In your letter to the American Baha'is, you refer to those who
appeal on the grounds of western liberal democratic values and traditions. We
would simply like to note that the reason for our appeals was that we felt we
had been acting in accordance with all Baha'i laws, policies, and guidelines on
publishing in the preparation and publication of dialogue. It was on the basis
of Baha'i laws and Baha'i values that we made our appeals. We do acknowledge
that we stand both within the Baha'i Faith and within the wider tradition of
progressive or liberal western thought. But we are Baha'is first and foremost.
Indeed, we have maintained our commitment to Baha'u'llah and his new order
because we have fundamental critiques of the western liberal democratic
tradition, which are precisely those that you have so clearly pointed to in your
letter on freedom of expression. We agree that the Baha'i model of consultation
and Baha'i principles of unity and diversity and radiant submission to the will
of the majority view in community affairs are positive distinctions from the
methods of political discourse and affairs that dominate our country. Because
we are sickened by the corruption of American political and economic practices,
we adhere to the Baha'i spiritual principles of community development and
practice.
We do note, however, that Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha "took up" certain aspects
of the western liberal democratic tradition in their teachings. 'Abdu'l-Baha,
for example, noted that:
"Under an autocratic government, the opinions of men are not free, and
development is stifled; whereas in democracy, because thought and speech are not
restricted, the greatest progress is witnessed. It is likewise true in the world
of religion. When freedom of conscience, liberty of thought and right of speech
prevail--that is to say, when every man according to his own idealization may
give expression to his beliefs--development and growth are inevitable."
Freedom of expression is clearly the basis of meaningful consultation and hence
growth and development. It is our belief that meaningful consultation is not
possible today within our national community because adequate safeguards for
free expression by Baha'is are not maintained by our institutions. One of the
reasons dialogue has met with such an enthusiastic response within our community
is that Baha'is recognize it as an important step forward for the consulation
process within the American Baha'i community.
In our appeals we made clear our concerns with present-day Baha'i administrative
practices in this country and we will not address them further in this letter.
Despite our concerns, as well as our sadness at times with the progress of our
institutions, we remain firm in our faith that the Baha'i community and its
administration order is a beacon of hope to our fellow Americans. We seek to
improve the functioning of our institutions through our prayers, our local
community endeavors, and our publishing activities. We are cheered by your
explicit depiction of the positive role of a free press within the Baha'i
community. We continue to look forward to finding ways to reverse the negative
climate that surrounds our relationship with the National Spiritual Assembly and
are willing to take any steps that the House of Justice or the National Assembly
feels necessary, including to cease and desist all of our publishing activities
if either institution feels cessation of dialogue is in the best interests of
the Faith.
At this time, we only ask that a clarification of our status be made to the
believers through The American Baha'i. If dialogue is to continue and survive,
we feel it is vital for our status to be cleared up so as to quell the invidious
backbiting that is occurring within our community over our very existence.
With loving regards,
Steven Scholl
Editor
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:27:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: DEREK COCKSHUT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Resurrection and Renewal .by Abbas Amanat .
On Thu, 4 Jan 1996, DEREK COCKSHUT wrote:
> Dear Talismanians
I have no objection to
> serious history students reading the book but I stand by my orginal
> comments quoted in part by Juan , it is a book written from a
> non-religious perspective . The Bab I do not accept was a result of the
> social conditions in Iran in the 19th century , nor would I imagine any
> other avowed believer in the Faith of the Twin Blessed Ones .
> Kindest Regards
> Derek Cockshut
>
Derek: Surely you would be willing to admit of a more nuanced view of
history and revelation than this? Maybe, just maybe, the effulgence
of the Universal Intellect could have been shed on the Bab in a
historical vacuum (but I doubt it). But he could not have begun a vast
social movement encompassing nearly two percent of the population in only
5 years in a social and historical vacuum. Iranians had to be ready to
hear his message. And the importation after 1815 of British manufactured
textiles, which threw weavers and some merchants out of work, is such a
context,e.g.. Shoghi Effendi, who knew something about the way history
works, notes the especial appeal of Babism to the urban bourgeoisie; this
was not accidental, but reflected what Weber called an "elective affinity,"
the mutual attraction of two ideal types. Even in American Baha'i history,
spikes in our growth can be correlated with social and economic phenomena
like the Depression, or the Civil Rights and youth movements of the
'60s/'70s.
History and revelation in my view must be seen as two sides of the same
coin, two dimensions of the same object. You can only see one at a time,
but both are necessary to a full description of the object. Amanat is
looking at the cultural, social and economic history of Babism, whereas
other Baha'i authors have been concerned with a theology of Babi
history. We need both.
As for Amanat's remarks about the Bab that make him seem more human and
fallible, I do not view them as ipso facto non-religious. I do not think
that Kazantzakis's Jesus is a non-religious depiction, nor do I think
Amanat's Bab entirely lacks any religious dimension. It is useful to
contrast Amanat to the recent MacEoin, to see the difference between
detached sympathy and out-and-out contempt.
Whatever else the Bab was, he was a human being. So was the Bab. He
cannot be usefully extricated from a precise historical context. I
agree that neither can he be *reduced* to that context, either (none of us
can); but I don't read Amanat as in any sense a reductionist.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:45:15 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Resurrection and Renewal .by Abbas Amanat .
Of course, neither the Babi religion nor any other human phenomenon can
simply be reduced to its social and historical context. No historian worth
his salt would even suggest such a silly conclusion. Human beings, and
especially social movements, are by nature creative and unpredictable.
However, I do not see how it can be denied that the Babi movement was
deeply and profoundly shaped and influenced by its cultural and historical
context. Or, that we cannot fully understand what the Bab was talking about
without an understanding of that context.
For that understanding, we must be grateful to Amanat for producing the
best book yet written on the Babis. It was not his intention to explain the
theological significance of the Bab for the Baha'i Faith to the Baha'is.
Rather he was trying to recover what the people involved in the movement
thought they were doing, at the time they were doing it. He succeeds
superbly.
No, I have not and cannot read all his sources in the original language.
But, I can compare what he has written to everything else in English that
has been written on the Bab. And, I can say that he makes the most coherent
arguments, that his book is better documented and better researched than all
the others. He makes more sense of the Babi movment than anyone else ever
has by placing it in context, and (as John has already noted) evaluating its
place in Iranian social and intellectual history. What else can one ask of a
book?
Does this mean that everything he says is correct? Of course not. Why
would anyone expect that? Certainly his book, some decades hence, will be
replaced by a better book. But until that happens, I will be happy to read
Amanat with pleasure.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 02:43:44 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights
To what end all this incessant crying?! I asked earlier today if all those
folk who were directly involved in the LA thing would identify themselves -
and give one complete summary of everything they personally know - that they
witnessed themselves. One good fellow did. Now we have more rumors and
whispering that some other person has been threatened with having their
rights removed if they speak of it? Who?? When were they threatened? By
whom?! Let's get some names out here!
Really, if everyone who has been going on and on and on about all the
horrible crimes committed had courage - if they were _really_ committed to
seeing justice done, well then damn the torpedos. Cough it up folks, tell all
here. You could easily post anonymously here, no one would know - give us all
the horrid details. If you feel that there should be complete and total
freedom - total access to all the information of what is going on behind
closed doors well than please be a martyr to this new-found freedom fight.
Give us, without holding back all the information that you, _personally_
know to be true and accurate, not what you have heard from just one side, not
just second-hand rumor or conjecture, but what _you_ know to be the facts. If
you all are so committed to waving the flag and championing warmed-over
political theories developed nearly three centuries ago you should have the
strength of conviction to be sacrificed for such ideals. What have you to
lose anyway? Your administrative rights?
Why should you care for those? You have all been growing so bold here in
our little corner, occasionally squeaking out amazment that "Well we haven't
been shutdown yet!" and thus growing a bit bolder with each passing month . .
. you have all said how disenchanted and disaffected from the community as a
whole . . . what would the lose of rights be to furthering the ends of this
noble cause?
I have never, in all my life as a Baha'i seen such a pathetic example as I
see here. This constant groaning and weeping and shaking of angry lil' fists
reminds me of nothing so much as the current victimization trend of America.
The one central theme there is that there is no real desire to heal, be
healed and go on; it is rather a viscious, hate-drenched desire to inflict
pain; it is a self-license that the mobs gave themselves when they would tear
apart the bodies of our martyrs, with the blessings and on-lloking pleasure
of the mullas.
There is no desire to see *reform* here. If true reform came who would
their be next to blame? America itself is in such a state now. We have no
outward enemy, but we must turn our frustrations, angers, egos on something,
so we turn it on ourselves. There is no desire to see things change here -
the kind of herculean effort it would take to change the Baha'i community so
that this immaturity _on all sides_ that is strangling us could be finally
put behind us - this undertaking is too frightening for all those that would
rather sit bitterly on their hunches and cast stones and scream and curse . .
=END=
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 23:59:51 -0800
To: jwalbrid
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: More queries
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>Sorry to impose on you all again, but does anybody know
>
>1) Whether, and if so where, there is a source saying that the obligatory
>prayers may be said aloud or silently.
>john walbridge
Dear John,
Get out your Kitab-i-Aqdas (hard cover):
Synopsis and Codification: Pg. 146, Part IV, A, 2, d, "Turning to the Qiblih
is manditory while reciting the Obligatory Prayers."
S&C: pg. 146, Part IV, A, 8, "The recital of the first (long) Obligatory
Prayer, once in twenty-four hours is sufficient."
S&C: pg 147, Part IV, A, 10, f, "If ablutions have been performed for other
purposes, their renewal prior to the recital of the Obligatory Prayer is not
required."
Questions and Answers: page 111, # 14,
QUESTION: The believers have been enjoined to face in the direction of the
Qiblih when reciting their Obligatory Prayers; in what direction should they
turn when offering other prayers and devotions?
ANSWER: Facing in the direction of the Qiblih is a fixed requirement for
the recitation of obligatory prayer, but for other prayers and devotions one
may follow what the merciful Lord hath revealed in the Qur'an: "Whichever
way ye turn, there is the face of God."
Q&A: pg. 124 - 125, # 60,
QUESTION: If, due to missed Obligatory Prayers, a number of prostrations
are required, must the verse be repeated after each compensating prostration
or not?
ANSWER: It is sufficient to recite the designated verse after the last
prostration. The several prostrations do not require separate repetitions
of the verse.
Note 5, pg. 167, "Regarding the definition of the words "morning", "noon"
and "evening", at which times the currently binding medium Obligatory Prayer
is to be recited, . . . The definition of "noon" as the period "from noon
till sunset" applies to the recitation of the short Obligatory Prayer as
well as the medium one."
Note #7, pg. 169, "fixed requirement for the recitation of obligatory prayer"
To me "reciting" a prayer can only mean saying it aloud. If I am in a
position where others may be close and I want privacy I recite the prayer
"under my breath" but i do vocalize it.
These are the most obvious quotes though there are others that give support
including the Prayer for the Dead, which is an obligarory prayer, and the
verse recited when a traveler was unable to offer an obligatory prayer.
I hope this helps.
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 02:54:43 -0500
Message-Id: <960105025442_107090540@mail06.mail.aol.com>
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Phillip,
Your acronym M I A for Mashriq is probably more appropo than you
intended - mssing in action . :) . That describes the state of its
development and what is missing in our action(s).
Whew - how to respond to your question . let me try on two levels
one social and the other spiritual / mystical . let me know if I am getting
anywhere . Also see my comments to Sen about Mashriq endowments; especially I
would recommend the absolutely marvelous statement by the beloved Guardian in
Baha i Administration pgs . 184 -186.
Let me start with this from Abdul Baha which appeared in Star of the
West.
" The founding of the Mashriqu l Adhkar will mark the inception of the
Kingdom of God on earth ."
and from Selections :
" Be engaged in the furtherance of the Mashriq u l Adhkar and prepare
the means for the diffusion of the divine fragrances. Be not engaged in
anything but this . ."
The Kingdom of God on earth is, in my mind , the recognition that this
institution symbolizes as the Guardian states that " religious truth is not
absolute but relative that Divine revelation is not final but Progressive."
This strikes me as another way of saying that there is one God and one
religion "the changeless Faith of God " It is the Mashriqu l Adhkar which is
the heart of the Covenant of God and by extension is inseperable from the
heart of the Covenant of Baha u llah which is about the remembrance of God.
And it is the Mashriq whose very *name * is a reflection of that truth ; It
is the "Dawning Place" of the Remembrance of God . As we know from the
Aqdas the twin duties prescribed by God have to do with "recognition ( Irfan
) and observance of the ordinances or commands of God . One of those
commands is "Build ye Houses of Worship throughout the lands in the name of
Him who is the Lord of all religions . " As Abdul Baha points out in the
Hidden Treasure Commentary every being has a *Name * peculiar to it and I
would surmise is the "religion by which he returns to the *remembrance * Here
is how Abdul Baha states it :" although he is the dawning place of the
manifestation of all the Names and Attributes , one of the Divine Names is
manifested most strongly and appears most intensely. Thus his being
originates from this Name and returns to it ."
The Lord of all religions - the Lord of Transcendent Oneness manifests
itself in each soul in a unique way. The House of Worship or Mashriq is the
home to which all Names seek shelter as the Guardian has pointed. We have
individual and religious pluralism as an inherent feature of the world that
we occupy - Nasut . hence the Guardian could say the Mashriq u l Adhkr "will
symbolize" that "religious truth is not absolute but relative." This is the
institution that testifies to the Onenes of God and the Oneness of religions
in that they all proceed from one source and are manifestations of one light
. The house of Justice has written that the Mashriq is the institution which
demonstrates the "dynamic coherence " implied in the principle of the Oneness
of humankind ; the coherence between the spiritual and practical requiremnets
of life on earth . So in reality it is a reflection of the three famous
oneness's that Bahais have talked about forever.
The second above quote from Abdul Baha mentions "be engaged in nothing but
this" . This nothing is the furtherence of the Mashriq , he says, and the
diffusion of the divine fragrances which is another way of saying the
teachings of Baha u llah ; which is another way of saying the *remembrance of
God. Even on a literal level the diffusion of the divine fragrances as
teaching the Faith is intimately connected by Abdul Baha to the furtherance
of the Mashriq .
Since the *remembrance * of God is what it ultimately is all about as
the Guardian mentions " . . the core of religious faith is that mystic
feeling that unites man with God. This state of spiritual communion can be
brought about and maintained by means of prayer and meditation . . the Bahai
Faith like all other divine religions, is thus fundamentally mystic in
character " we know where it is we are to go to be so blessed. Baha u llah
states " Blessed is he who, at the hour of dawn, centring his thoughts on
God, occupied with His remembrance, supplicating His forgiveness, directeth
his steps to the Mashriqu l Adhkar and entering therein , seateth himself in
silence to listen to the verses of God ." It is interesting to me that Baha
u llah is noting tht one upon waking is already in a state of remembrance
via "centring his thoughts on God ."
This is 'recognition" and then this blessedness must as Baha u lah notes be
inseperable from observence and the soul then directs its steps to the
Madhriq u l Adhkar where all the other souls of the community have also
gathered to be "blessed". This is the fundamental act of community worship
which originates in the soul which has centered its thoughts in God has
rcognized that as Abdul Baha says "In reality the radiant , pure hearts are
the Mashriqu l Adhkar." Which means that you and I are , in reality , Houses
of Worship . This recognition is inseperable from its observence in worship
and service and this is the indispensable function of the Mashriq u l Adhkar.
according to the Guardian . It is here that the real celebration of God and
humanity in its "essential oneness" takes place as Baha u llah notes in the
Aqdas "celebrate therein the praise of your Lord , the Most Compassionate.
Verily by His remembrance the eye is cheered and the heart is filled with
light ."
If as Baha u llah states in the Iqan that the "object of every
revelation is transformation " both inwardly and outwardly and the Mashriq u
l Adhkar clearly has both an inward and an outward form -- the heart and the
institution - then it would seem that the Mashriqu l Adhkar is the key to the
growth and transformation of the Bahai community and the "vital" means by
which the Bahai community can affect the "regeneration of the world." And if
as the Guardian states this "House" is the one in which all avowed folowers
of Baha u llah will seek shelter and that the efforts of those who administer
the affairs of the community will not" fructify and prosper" unless they are
brought into "close daily contact" with the "energies radiating from the
central shrine " of the Mashriq then it would seem that this institution both
spiritually and materially is indispensable to the success and transformation
of any activity undertaken by the Baha i Community .
I can not claim to understand the processs by which the community came to
think that community and purpose were synonamous with administration. It is
unfortunate because if we take Baha u llah and Abdul Baha and Shoghi Efffendi
seriously I believe with every ounce of my 155 lb. body that we had better be
about awakening the Mashriq that is within us and building its outer
expression in the world _ Houses of Worship and their Dependencies . Anything
less seems to me not an act of Dhikr - remembrance but an act of Ghafla-
heedlessness . and that gets to the heart of what Covenants are all about.
As those great American mystics ( the Eagles) once said " some dance to
remember , some dance to forget." I can t wait until we all truly are able
to . . dance to remember.
warm regards,
Terry
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights
To: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 3:34:19 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Jim: 5 January 1996
I am deeply offended by your letter. Did it ever occur to you that
the individual whose rights were threatened does not wish his name to be
made public?
______________
JIM writes:
*I have never, in all my life as a Baha'i seen such a
pathetic example as I see here. This constant groaning and weeping and
shaking of angry lil' fists reminds me of nothing so much as the current
victimization trend of America. The one central theme there is that there
is no real desire to heal, be healed and go on; it is rather a viscious,
hate-drenched desire to inflict pain; it is a self-license that the mobs
gave themselves when they would tear apart the bodies of our martyrs, with
the blessings and on-lloking pleasure of the mullas.*
_____________
BUCK
Speaking for myself (and I ask you not to speak for me) there is a
desire to heal. It's called justice. Is your concept of *healing* turning
a blind eye to injustice?
And how dare you compare me or Juan to murderers? I'm the one
standing up for a martyr. Where are your convictions? What are your
convictions? Where in God's name is your sense of propriety,
dignity, and reason, when you stoop instead to ridicule and slander?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JIM writes:
*There is no desire to see *reform* here. If true reform came who would
their be next to blame? America itself is in such a state now. We have no
outward enemy, but we must turn our frustrations, angers, egos on something,
so we turn it on ourselves. There is no desire to see things change here -*
_____________
BUCK:
Either you are dense or you simply can't read. Why else am I raising
questions about human rights? Because I desire reform. What else, if not
reform, am I advocating when I risk my reputational neck to express support
for Juan's proposed Amendments to NSA By-Laws?
It's attitudes like yours that scare me. I expect an apology from
you. I can handle disagreement. Just tell me that human rights do not
apply in the exercise of Baha'i administration. And cite your reasons and
your sources. Tell me that Baha'is are not bound by international law.
Provide some rationale and documentation to back you up.
Tell me where there are holes in my argument. Go ahead, debate the
issues! Go ahead, make my day. Tell me my desire for reform is misdirected.
But don't be so stupid as to think you can accuse me of not wanting reform
and get away with it. Reread my posts. You are simply wrong: There is a
desire to see things change here.
You were wrong about me. In argumentation, one is safest when one
speaks about one's own self, not about others. Now that I have corrected
your misperceptions about me (because I know myself better than you do),
perhaps you'll be gentleman enough to apologize.
And tell me I'm wrong. That's fine. I only ask that you use reason,
and cite documents to back you up. I have cited *The Promise of World
Peace*, *The Unfoldment of World Civilization*, *The Universal Declaration
of Human Rights*. What sources have you cited? What principles have you
adduced? I am waiting to see how you intend to refute the House and the
Guardian on human rights, and how you can justify non-compliance with
fundamental human rights as enshrined in international law.
-- Christopher Buck
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 04:04:40 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: What fascism is and is *not*
Somehow I must have missed it.
It's truly surprising, considering the fact that I have close friends in
Baha'i communities across the United States, and in numerous other countries,
and even in Haifa.
But somehow, I have never heard about the recommendations that NSAs should
send gangs of thugs into dissidents' homes in the middle of the night,
dragging them and their families off to the countryside to be shot in the
back of the head and dumped in ditches.
Somehow I never heard about the LSAs that have set out to eliminate open
disagreement with their decisions by sending all the nonconformists to
re-education camps where food is scarce and hard labor is abundant.
Somehow I never learned about the secret police forces soon to be employed by
the Continental Boards of Counsellors, detaining respected scholars and
subjecting them to extended sessions of torture with cattle prods and sleep
deprivation until they write articles recanting their controversial
conclusions about Baha'i history.
Yet somehow all these things and worse must be just around the corner, or
indeed have already happened, because Tony Lee declares that significant
segments of the Baha'i community are advocating "a system of government which
is identical in all dimensions to fascist theories of government."
Make no mistake. My objection is not merely on the grounds of poor
vocabulary, nor am I defending the status quo as Mr. Lee implies. There are
real problems in the Baha'i community which we must understand and overcome.
First we must understand the problems accurately. Thus, I object to claims
and comparisons that are factually and conceptually false.
Fascist theories of government openly advocate the kinds of repression
described above "for the good of the State." The fact that a conception of
Baha'i principle may advocate less destructive forms of public discourse than
are currently employed in liberal democracies does not warrant the accusation
that such a Baha'i conception is "fascist."
Even if there are superficial similarities to fascist statism in some
conceptions of how Baha'i principles should be put into practice, as
disturbing as such similarities may rightfully be, this is a far cry from
their being "identical in all dimensions."
Mr. Lee makes additional accusations about the practices and ideas prevalent
in the Baha'i community:
". . . deifies the state . . . recognizes no individual rights . . . will not
tolerate freedom of speech . . . allows no political activity outside the
channels designated by the state . . . allows for no civil discourse
and no civil society . . ."
It is true that these are all readily acknowledged characteristics of the
systems advocated by self-identified fascists, neofascists, and other
totalitarians. Such systems would openly incorporate all of these elements
into central political theory and constantly pursued public policies. No
Baha'i institution has done this, nor has any Baha'i individual of any
standing advocated this.
It is only by viewing through a distorted lens a carefully selected summary
of Baha'i institutions' missteps and Baha'i individuals' misunderstandings
that anyone can gain and give the impression that the Baha'is are dangerously
close to following the same path as the fascists. As already stated, there
are definitely problems in the Baha'i community -- but fascism is not among
them.
Baha'is do not deify the state as a matter of stated principle, as fascists
do. Baha'is may not agree with mainstream American thought on which rights
are inalienable, but do recognize the importance of individual rights, as
fascists do not. Even the most liberal of democratic societies must set some
limits on free speech, and Baha'is also set limits, but do not advocate
imprisonment and/or death for transgressors, as fascists do. Likewise, every
society limits the definition of acceptable political activity and civil
discourse, and so do Baha'is, but not on pain of death and prison.
If we assume that any political theory disagreeing with elements of liberal
democratic practice must therefore be fascist or otherwise totalitarian, we
will commit a grave error of oversimplification. This will slow down the
useful application of Baha'i principles to political theory, and will not
help solve the problems the Baha'i community must overcome before it can
begin helping to address the crying needs of humanity.
I shall endeavor to build upon this point at a later date.
Regards,
Kevin
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 02:10:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: The Question of Approach (Amanat's book)
Dear Talizens--
For all those who find Amanat's book objectionable, might I suggest to
the friends to check out Todd Lawson's phenomenologically based approach
to the Bab's scriptural hermenuetics, namely his Ph.D dissertation: _The
Quran Commentary of Siyyid `Ali Muhammad the Bab_. This mammoth 500 pg
tome can be obtained through McGill-Queens University microfilms --
sorry, I don't have their phone number or address. Jonah?
Now, one thing I find surprising about all the objections to
Amanat's book is that Baha'is seldomnly take into account the specific
methodological approach that is being advocated in such a work, and I'm
especially surprised at one of our great contemporary Persian Baha'i
historians taking issue here, our beloved Ahang. Amanat is a modern
trained historian, employing a modern "source criticism" framework with
modern historical tools of investigation. That is all! I can fully
empathize with the friends getting nervous with this way of looking at
things -- who can blame them --, after all we're dealing with sacred
history. However, an approach is just that; "one" approach among many. It
is merely a Wittgensteinian "language game" and not meant as an overall
"truth statement" about the veracity of the Bab or Babism. For that, one
needs to go to the scriptures and not critical history. Note: I'm making a
distinction between "truth" and "fact." A few months back I suggested that
to me the Babi/Baha'i Faith represented a universalized version of
Twelver Shi'ite, with a tinge of quasi-Ismaili, Sufism. Two people took
issue, and that is fine with me, since they're entitled to their
weltanschauung vis-a-vis the Faith as I am to mine, and I still love and
respect both of them a great deal despite our differences in perspective.
My summation was not meant as a caustic remark or devaluation, as
everyone knows I am a perennialist by temprament (but by no means a
"neo-traditionalist") and the reverse is rather the case. I say Amanat's book
is very much the same kind of thing, given a couple of orders of magnitude.
To me, Amanat betrays his true sympathies from the first page of the
book. How anyone can come away feeling he has somehow implicitly attacked
the Babi/Baha'i movement is quite beyond this feeble mind to comprehend,
however Amanat might interpret his primary sources. As far as the internal
value of the book is concerned, appeals to an argument which states that
he misinterprets or misrepresents his sources is, to put it mildly, quite
irrelevant to the discussion at hand, since any textual hermenuetic is
subjectivilly based in the final analysis, especially when it comes to
history -- I'm beginning to sound Derridean, eeek! Furthermore, to suggest
that revelation occurs in a historical vacuum, is to miss the very raison
d'etre claim of revelation itself. Why have revelatory fulfillment in the
first place if there is no historical culmination, but especially the
underlying chiliastic expectation thereof, to fulfill?!?!
We Baha'is need to make the important distinction between
the methods of critical history and those belonging to sacred history,
since the current, "official" and conflated attitide towards our past
seems to have opened the field to all sorts of disturbing realities and
smacks of a narrow-minded Baha'i quasi-Fundamentalism. Let us agree that
academic historical investigation occurs on the horizontal, nasuti level
("fact"), hierohistory on the Mundus Imaginalis or malakuti/jabaruti
plane ("truth"). It might be pointed out to the friends that "conflation"
is precisely the same mode and manner utilized by the Wahabists,
Khomeinists and Christain fundamentalists when they seek to enumerate
their respective histories -- if you've ever tried talking to a
Born-Again Christain about the apocryphal gospels of Thomas & Barnabas
you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. On this point, despite my
disagreements-in-principle with his approach, I fully concur with Denis
Maceoin who on more than occasion has pointed out the wilfull
inaccuracies committed by doctrinaire Baha'is in the name of doctrinal
purity. Insistence by the friends that "one" version of history be
blindly adhered to, at whatever the cost, is part and parcel of the same
kind of nonesense as White-Supremacists claiming the Holocaust never
happened.
Take _Resurrection & Renewal_ for what it's worth and, please, stop the
Amanat bashing -- we sound just as bad, if not worse, than the Mormons
when we do this!
Regards,
Nima
p.s. Go see Oliver Stone's new movie; it's his best yet!
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:17:04 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: coming out of obscurity
Dear Talismans,
I once heard Dr. Muhajir say that when a person was appointed to the rank of
Hand of the Cause, the capacity to rise to that rank went along with the
appointment.
The 12/31/95 letter from the House calls on the world's barely six million
Baha'is to rise and start the process of entry by troops. From the
Americocentric viewpoint which dominates many of the discussions on this
list, it might appear that administrative/institutional/community
shortcomings mitigate against this being done in any effective way.
However, let me suggest that that now, by virtue of the pronouncement, the
capacity to achieve entry by troops is within our reach.
When the Aqdas came out, a youth movement on both Coasts called Straight Edge
(a small group of vegetarians who were against drugs, sex, alcohol, etc,
--basically the sins of the fathers) suddenly attracted thousands of new
members and is now a main-stream youth position. Hearing about this, I
couldn't help but feel that the power released through publication of the
Most Holy Book acted like a huge magnet, aligning all of those tender young
souls with the Will of God, even though they were not aware of why they
decided to reject the excesses which surrounded them.
In the same way, we can regard this letter from the House of Justice as
setting into motion the divine confirmations necessary to start the process
of entry by troops. Basically, as the Guardian said again and again, it all
begins with us and our individual faith. Terry has shown the way: let's take
the power given to each of us by this letter and move forward, confident in
the Beloved, and never mind anything else.
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:00:32 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "K. Paul Johnson" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Mixed Messages
Paul,
>Alas, the Temple Solaire members were a quite highly educated
>group, for all the good it did them.
Is this the crowd that went to Jonestown? I got the impression that the
majority of the members were culturally disenfranchised... poor or old or
black or unemployed ...uneducated.. Do you know the stats re. this?
Robert.
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:33:13 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 5: "This fairest of lands was once a lamp."
Talismans,
'Abdu'l-Baha continues with his review of the fortunes of Persia. He
accords the Persians a low contemporary status, an illustrious past, and a
peerless capacity. He praises the advances of Europe and America, and
indicates the origins of this.
Robert...
SDC 5
This fairest of lands was once a lamp, streaming with the rays of Divine
knowledge, of science and art, of nobility and high achievement, of wisdom
and valor. Today, because of the idleness and lethargy of her people,
their torpor, their undisciplined way of life, their lack of pride, lack
of ambition--her bright fortune has been totally eclipsed, her light has
turned to darkness. "The seven heavens and the seven earths weep over
the mighty when he is brought low."
It should not be imagined that the people of Persia are inherently
deficient in intelligence, or that for essential perceptiveness and
understanding, inborn sagacity, intuition and wisdom, or innate capacity,
they are inferior to others. God forbid! On the contrary, they have
always excelled all other peoples in endowments conferred by birth.
Persia herself, moreover, from the standpoint of her temperate climate and
natural +P10 beauties, her geographical advantages and her rich soil,
is blessed to a supreme degree. What she urgently requires, however, is
deep reflection, resolute action, training, inspiration and encouragement.
Her people must make a massive effort, and their pride must be aroused.
Today throughout the five continents of the globe it is Europe and
most sections of America that are renowned for law and order, government
and commerce, art and industry, science, philosophy and education. Yet
in ancient times these were the most savage of the world's peoples, the
most ignorant and brutish. They were even stigmatized as barbarians--that
is, utterly rude and uncivilized. Further, from the fifth century after
Christ until the fifteenth, that period defined as the Middle Ages, such
terrible struggles and fierce upheavals, such ruthless encounters and
horrifying acts, were the rule among the peoples of Europe, that the
Europeans rightly describe those ten centuries as the Dark Ages. The
basis of Europe's progress and civilization was actually laid in the
fifteenth century of the Christian era, and from that time on, all her
present evident culture has been, under the stimulus of great minds and
as a result of the expansion of the frontiers of knowledge and the
exertion of energetic and ambitious efforts, in the process of
development.
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:48:58 +1300 (NZDT)
To: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck), talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights: ouch!
Chris Buck wrote:
> Either you are dense or you simply can't read.
>But don't be so stupid as to think you can accuse me of not wanting reform
>and get away with it.
Is this scholarly non-ad hominem argumentation? Do I recall a recent
request being made that I be turfed off the list..? And for what reason
and by whom? Let's see: if a complainant commits the defendant's offence,
what is the honourable course? The punishment s/he would invoke for the
complainant? Do we need an expert of human rights to untangle this..?
Nay, good sir. Nay! All that is required is charity of spirit... I feel
certain that gentleman Jim will take no offence..! ;-}
Robert.
=END=
From: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:44:12 +1100 (EST)
To: Juan R Cole
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Juan
I had written a great diatribe seeking to respond to many of the points
that have been made - particularly Terry's - but I must apologise and say
that I can only deal with so much dialogue - and therefore I hope Terry you
will accept my apologies that I will not be able to reply directly. I hope
some of the following comments address some of your concerns.
Juan it is very encouraging to hear that our remaining areas of debate have
been reduced to two. Perhaps we can dispose even of these. :-) Also I
felt it would be valuable to restate areas where we two at least are at
consensus. The following are some suggestions (let me know if you
disagree):
1. The Baha'i institutions and community are not perfect and this
gives rise to difficulties in its functioning.
2. There is a need to foster change in the Baha'i Community, or to put
it another way, there is a need to increase the spiritual and
administrative maturity of the Community and institutions, if the Baha'i
Faith is to fulfil its potential.
3. It is not fair and is potentially misleading (particularly to the
uninitiated) to refer to the Faith as tending to fascism, communism, or
similar regimes, given the inhuman practices generally associated with
these regimes which are in no way present in the Baha'i Faith.
4. Shoghi Effendi's contributions to the Faith in terms of
inclulcation of principles of justice, openness, and mechanisms to prevent
abuse in the Baha'i administration are significant protections against
abuse and it would be perilous in the current conditions of the community
and institutions to open the possbility of removal of these protections.
5. Praise of parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy and
its approval as a form of government are part of the Baha'i teachings
(notwithstanding shortcomings of this system also identified by the
teachings.)
Following your posting I would also add:
6. Baha'u'llah condemned political absolutism and called for an end to
tyranny and oppression.
Have I left anything out?
I hope the above represents a reasonable summary of where we are in
agreement (some of these areas of agreement I have inferred from your
referring to only two remaining areas of disagreement).
Comparisons Again
-----------------------
I admit that this is becoming something of a hobby horse of mine but you
have now added ultramontanism and quaker democracy to your list of
comparisons to the Faith or elements of it, or my views on it (marxism,
fascism and communism being the previous three). This doesn't bother me
(truly) - but I think it is a significant conceptual point in with regard
to analysis of the Faith. Comparisons of this sort are comparing the known
(our past experience of governmental systems) with the unknown (the Baha'i
System - which is far from fully implemented). This seems to me a kind of
mental strait jacket, as limiting in its way as the view that the Faith
will continue to operate exactly as it does today (a view which Terry seems
to ascribe to me - but which I must say I do not hold). If we conceive of
the Faith only in terms of our past experience its inherent possibilities
for growth and change will be limited - particularly if we insist that
future change should be modelled on that past experience. The Faith is, to
a large degree an open book - and we have yet to write the script. The
Faith is "badi" - and I am sure you will know much better than I the
connotations of this word in terms of newnews, and uniqueness. We do not
know what the Faith will become tomorrow - we do know that it is a system
which "the like of which mortal eyes have never witnessed" - to quote your
translation of Baha'u'llah.
Self-understanding
----------------------
Terry has expressed strong doubts about the potential for gradual change in
the context of "normative self-understanding". I actually used the word
"self-conception" - but perhaps what would better express my thoughts is
"self-definition". This does not include unwarranted assumptions,habits
and practice which pass for "Baha'i" just because we haven't thought
carefully enough about the Baha'i teachings or tried hard enought to
implement them - these should certainly be open to change - and we should
proactively address them. There are however very basic elements of the
Faith system - the principles of the administration and the obligation of
obedience to the institutions which are at the very heart of Baha'i
self-definition (this is clear from what is explained to the new believer -
ie when you become a Baha'i you are saying you believe in Baha'u'llah and
you agree to obey the institutions and do your best to follow Baha'i law).
To return to the metaphor of the open book - there are certain things in
the Faith which constitute the spine and the binding of the book and there
are certain things which have already been written in it. It is not within
the scope of our liberty to seek to tear off the cover or rip out some of
the pages which our predecessors have penned. We have however immense
freedom in our choice of what we write in the pages to follow.
Process of Reform
----------------------
A fundamental issue in our discussion of gradualism vs. revolution (I am
not sure how the proponents of radical change would describe their views -
but this is the term that has been used so far) is whether significant
change is possible through a gradualist approach. In answer to those who
say it is not - look to British history - in the space of three hundred
years it transformed itself from oppressive oligarchy to progressive
democratic welfare state - without any radical overthrow of the system.
The countries that did opt for radical change - France, Russia, China many
third world countries - payed dearly for this choice in human blood and
misery - and in many cases for rewards that turned out to be totally
illusory. It is up to those proposing radical change to demostrate to
themselves that gradualism has no prospect of bringing about change. Thus
far the proposals I (and others on this list) have made for gradual change
have not been given serious attention.
Liberty and Democracy
---------------------------
Juan, we are all in debt to you for your ground breaking work on the
meaning of liberty as used by Baha'u'llah, and Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l
Baha's advocacy of democracy. I think I will have to reflect on it quite a
while before I have absorbed it all.
In respect of liberty though - I still have a slightly different view to
the one which you have propounded which I think is also consistent with
"hurriya" as you have explained it. In both your post and your article you
point out the double meaning of hurriya - political liberty and moral
license. You then propound that when Baha'u'llah says that he approves of
liberty in some cases but not in others he means that he approves of
political liberty but not moral licence. I must say this appears to be
just an assumption on your part - e.g. you say that
>For
>Baha'u'llah, the term hurriyyah could be deconstructed into two
>warring significations: political freedom, which was good, and moral
>license, which was bad.
Yes it could - but what is the evidence that Baha'u'llah actually did
deconstruct it this way? I suppose you would argue that we should look to
what Baha'u'llah did in his life and his other writings to reach this
conclusion - well maybe - but it is almost recourse to Baha'i "hadith" - a
questionable exercise - and circumstantial evidence as far as his other
writings are concerned. I am however persuaded that as a general
proposition this evidence is enough to say that by and large Baha'u'llah
approved of political liberty - and that therefore most political liberty
would fall into the "good" category.
There is however direct evidence of what he meant by good and bad liberty
from the relevant passages themselves. For instance the critique of
hurriya is immediately preceded by the command to 'turn your faces toward
Him Whom God hath purposed' and followed by the statement 'Regard men as a
flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their protection'. This suggests
that one sort of liberty that Baha'u'llah was referring to when alluding to
the pettiness of men's minds was the liberty to disobey Abdu'l Baha. The
shepherd figure could certainly be Abdu'l Baha. More direct evidence of
what is meant is found in paragraph 123 itself. The reference to liberty
leading to sedition - is to me at least a clear reference to 'bad'
political liberty - as the alternative meaning doesn't make much sense in
this context - and I would think (again based on circumstantial evidence
from Baha'u'llah's writings) that an example would be recourse to
revolution to overthrow tyranny - Baha'u'llah condemns it - and
coincidentally refused to practise it himself - this is also a 'hadith' to
which we should pay attention if we are to get into that exercise. The
reference to the 'mischief-maker' is also suggestive of political
activities.
That said, there is also clear evidence that Baha'u'llah was referring to
license as bad in words such as "Liberty causeth man to overstep the bounds
of propriety, and to infringe on the dignity of his station. It debaseth
him to the level of extreme depravity and wickedness." It is certainly an
aid to understanding these words to understand the full meaning of liberty.
I suppose this discussion is all getting a little academic but there you
have it.
It is now rather late. So I will cease for tonight. Tomorrow I hope to
say something more on democracy and on "freedom of speech" - which seems to
be the crux of a lot of the discussion - but which I do not think we have
yet tackled in a substantive way.
Regards again
Michael
=END=
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 07:00:05
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Resurrection and Renewal .by Abbas Amanat .
I have a certain amount of sympathy for both sides on this debate over
whether *Resurrection and Renewal* is "Godless" or not.
I personally hold to the theory that everything in the cosmos can be
thought of as having two types of causes: material and divine. If God
wants to work in the world, S/He does not destroy the laws of physics,
but utilizes them. Miracles may involve an unsual and difficult to
detect energy source to cause certain things to move or behave in
unusual ways, but nevertheless miracles need matter and energy, and
matter and energy are part of the physical world, not outside it.
Similarly with divine forces in human activities; the divine utilizes
human forces and tendencies, rather than irrupting and violating all
social forces.
Hence I have no problem with the fact that the Bab wrote in Arabic and
Persian, but never revealed a commentary on some lost ancient Chinese
book in proto-Indo-European. Presumably He could done this, and if He
had it would have been a miracle and an indisputable proof of His
divine power. But since it would have been such a proof it would have
forced all to believe, and that would have violated the principle of
separation and distinction stated by Baha'u'llah in *Gleanings.*
Instead, the Bab and Baha'u'llah seem generally to have stuck to
historical information available to them by material means, and they
certainly stuck to languages they learned in their own cultures. This
is not to say they did not receive information by divine means;
perhaps they did. But the information they so received *and used* was
information that was also theoretically available to them by material
means. Hence they quote sources and even cite books by name.
Furthermore, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Muhammad all had distinctive
writing styles. One Baha'i once told me he could tell you blindfolded
which was the Author of a certain passage if it were read aloud to
him, and I suspect this is often true. I am not troubled by the
possibility that the writing style was distinctive because of personal
life experiences and that personal life experiences might have shaped
the form and possibly even the content of the revelation. My own
*guess* is that when Baha'u'llah saw a tablet appear before His eyes,
He did not copy it verbatim, but used it as an inspiration, or as some
sort of source. Indeed, we do not know that the tablet Baha'u'llah
says He saw actually had Arabic and Persian words on it. Rather, the
"tablet" may be a metaphor to indicate divine thoughts were somehow
being communicated to Him, perhaps in a wordless medium, an
inspiration, a divine set of feelings. The shape that inspiration
took once put on paper was partly the result of Baha'u'llah; His
brain, His life experience, His mind.
This does not mean Baha'u'llh revealed things that were out of God's
control; I am arguing that God was using the human side of Baha'u'llah
as an instrument of revelation, as much as Baha'u'llah's tongue and
writing hand were so used by God.
When one takes this approach to history, one can see that the social
forces in operation in nineteenth-century Iran were to some extent
vehicles for divine action. It is therefore perfectly appropriate for
historians to seek to understand historical forces at work, shaping
the context of the revelation and therefore shaping to some extent the
content of the revelation itself.
Where I have trouble is with facile arguments for cause and effect. The general
impression Amanat's book left with me was that Dr. Amanat was attempting to
explain *everything* in purely social and psychological concerns. When
historians seek to do this sometimes they can go overboard and overreach the
deductive powers at their disposal. Thus one finds statements that the Bab
forbade the detailed study of theology because the subject bored Him in school.
Perhaps the subject did bore Him, but how can any historian claim to know a
person well enough to offer such an interpretation? From a purely
non-theological point of view, many other factors might have been at work. If
the Bab somewhere comes out and says "because of the way the mullas treated me
in school, I forbid such and such" the cause and effect chain would be clear;
but the Bab does not do this. So we are left with a gigantic leap, not that
different from a leap of faith.
This, in my opinion, is a flaw in Amanat's book: he seeks to explain too many
details by cause and effect, when the evidence does not always warrant it. That
said, I should add I find some of his explanations compelling, and the overall
approach of seeking such cause and effect linkages is extremely important.
In a related matter: I am also sceptical of arguments that say the Bab or
Baha'u'llah did or said something because they were angry. Now, I suppose it is
possible for God to use a Manifestation's anger creatively, as a vehicle for
Truth. I don't think anyone can say with certainty that God would never do
this. But when people say this, the implication is that Baha'u'llah or the Bab
lost His cool and became arbitrary, or unfair, or unjust; or that what He said
was no longer under divine inspiration. I personally would counsel the careful
choice of language in a case like this, so as not to imply the Manifestation was
acting in a *purely* human way. Part of the problem lies with the word "anger,"
for some read a much greater emotional intensity into it than others. In short,
it an imprecise word.
But generally I think it is possible for Baha'i scholars to write about Baha'i
history in a way that does not imply a denial of divine causality, while still
making a full exploration of the material causes that served as vehicles for
expressing His plan for humanity.
-- Rob Stockman
=END=
From: r_wagner@foma.wsc.mass.edu
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 08:50:56 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Amanat's book
Some of the spelling I see on this list and others amuses me, but--
Ahang, please distinguish between voracity and veracity!
Ralph Wagner
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Mixed Messages
To: Robert Johnston
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 9:28:53 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
The Temple Solaire is the group that originated in Quebec,
moved to Europe, and last year self-destroyed in a
murder/suicide rampage in Switzerland and France. Its founder,
Luc Jouret, was a physician, and all the leaders were
well-educated. It was written up in the issue of Gnosis that
came out right after the events, maybe three issues back.
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:55:06 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights
Mr. Buck:
I too would be offended were it not for the injunction of the Bab. I have
laid out quite a bit of my *pain* here on this list. I do not believe you or
those that continue to complain want reform. And stop talking for Juan. He is
a big boy and I am sure if he wishes he'll take a swing at me - Lord knows
he's got the intellectual muscle.
You accuse me of not wishing reform. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Simply because I have not dragged out all my laundary here to be viewed does
not mean I have not been trying - for over ten years now. And I imagine a lot
of folks on this list have too. But they recognize something sir I think you
do not.
I said you don't wish reform. I mean that in this sense. The original crisis
that caused this incident (or any other) and the ensuing attempts to deal
with it seems to have faded and the attempt at redress etc., became an
attachment for the ego. Isn't that what the House essentially said in its
letter to Mr. Scholl? It is no longer reform that is desired. It is revenge.
And all I am saying Mr. Buck, all I have ever been saying here is this: if we
really want reform, if we really see America become the vision we find of it
in the Writings, then we must find another way. These so-called attempts at
reform will lead no-where. It IS NOT that much of it is not needed; it IS
that we are going about it all wrong. And I submit that this current
direction has been chosen and held to because it is so personally gratifying
to feel that one is being a noble martyr for their personal cause.
This is not the road to reform Mr. Buck . . . it is the road to ruin. If you
want to see the Big Change let's for just once really explore another avenue.
jim harrison
Alethinos
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 10:00:05 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Misc.
I think one of the reasons the question of the obligation of Baha'i
institutions to abide by international standards of human rights comes up is
obviously that the Baha'i
administrative system is set up as a proto-government. That makes it
seem natural to held it to the same kind of standards that governments
are expected to obey.
Chris Buck has commented that Sahba has designed an expensive
mashriqu'l-adhkar. Might it be possible to get details and pictures?
The Peter Khan talk is in the current issue of *American Baha'i*.
john walbridge
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 09:59:06 EST
Subject: sacrifice personal rights for institutional reform?
Dear Jim et all,
Am I being correct to detect a "I dare you!" message for a
collective, sabredance? (where are you Janine?) I am not
good at this fencing business and
foolishly tired it many times and got wounded pretty badly that
I could not get up and dance for a long time. Now, I am not
interested in this reform business quite frankly, but almost
dying for a sabredance in the larger picture. Would you be willing
to be more specific about the movements of this dance?
Since, you appear so confident, I thought you might have
succesfully done it many times. For any successful undertaking,
we need competent workers with knowledge, skills and
attitude which you printfully manifest here on talisman.
Is Alethenos willing to be the modern Spartacus/Ben Hur?
Then, come on and press onward, first yourself!!!
It is time for promotion from "the one who just TELLS the
truth" to "the one who DOES something about it."
Some may follow suit like the Joan of Arc and etc.!
I know, you may suggest LADIES FIRST!, the
fine gentleman (brave?) that you are. Waiting!!!
think-talk-act,
love-learn-serve
Quanta
1) "The autotrophic cells in plants put in a long day converting CO2
and H2O into carbohydrates, fats, proteins.."
"The energy by this huge task is provided by the sun.."
2) "light emitted by an excited atom, reveales energy states within
the atom..."
3) ..each photon possesses energy that is proportional to the
frequency of the light..."
4) ".. only the light that absorbed can be effective in initiating a
reaction..."
5) "..one photon is sufficient to start one molecule reacting.."
---Slaubaugh et al, 1973
Analogies anyone?
Special guidance,
from beloved scientist
is warmly welcomed.
Perhaps a synthesis
with scholars' thoughts
of variant principles,
be most beneficial
for our minds.
love, learn, serve
Quanta Dawn-Light (*_*)
All I need is Freedom of spirit, Chastity of soul, and Purity of
heart. A pov is not even secondary.
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights
To: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 10:03:48 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Alethinos@aol.com:
>
>
> To what end all this incessant crying?!
Let's take your question literally, overlooking the PSR
quotient. Presumably as long as Baha'is are incessantly beaten
by administrative bodies, you will hear their incessant cries.
To what end? Why does a child cry when beaten? Not with any
particular manipulative strategy in mind, but TO EXPRESS PAIN.
That pain is still there, for many more Baha'is than those who
experienced the affair first hand, in the incessant attacks of
their fellow-Baha'is exhibiting an extreme degree of Pharisaic
Self-Righteousness (PSR). To the extent that what is going on
has a conscious intent, it isn't "crying" at all-- and the
emotional venting has been less a factor in recent posts than
the conscious intent-- but rather an effort to promote to
individual Baha'is and the institutions some important values
that seem to have gotten lost somewhere on the road to the New
World Order.
>
> Why should you care for those? You have all been growing so bold here in
> our little corner, occasionally squeaking out amazment that "Well we haven't
> been shutdown yet!" and thus growing a bit bolder with each passing month . .
> . you have all said how disenchanted and disaffected from the community as a
> whole . . . what would the lose of rights be to furthering the ends of this
> noble cause?
You are obviously taunting people here with the message that "I
can tell that your good standing in the Baha'i community means
nothing to you, why don't you just sacrifice it and we'll both
feel better?" How dare you? PSR rating 10 on a scale of 10.
You are venting your desire to see these folks get punished. A
love of seeing fellow-believers get punished is the ROOT CAUSE
of the problems in Baha'i administration. The institutions are
apparently bombarded with pleas of "sic `em" about various
alleged miscreants. Garbage in, garbage out. I personally
think the Baha'i Faith has a disproportionate number of
reincarnated Inquisitors and heretic hunters from various past
religions, who are working out their karma on one another.
>
> I have never, in all my life as a Baha'i seen such a pathetic example as I
> see here. This constant groaning and weeping and shaking of angry lil' fists
> reminds me of nothing so much as the current victimization trend of America.
Yeah, well, some people are pretty disgusted with the amount I
complain about the way Theosophical authorities have treated
me, and taken it as a sign that the problem is with the
complainant. In their case as well as yours, there is
obviously some kind of refusal to admit the possibility that
real harm has been done and real violations of fundamental
responsibilities have occurred. The Internet gives people the
chance to talk back to authorities who heretofore have
monopolized discourse. If this be treason, make the most of it!
> The one central theme there is that there is no real desire to heal, be
> healed and go on; it is rather a viscious, hate-drenched desire to inflict
> pain; it is a self-license that the mobs gave themselves when they would tear
> apart the bodies of our martyrs, with the blessings and on-lloking pleasure
> of the mullas.
>
I could drag out my ten strongest adjectives to characterize
this passage, and they wouldn't do justice. So perhaps the
best comment is the generic Southern anodyne, "Well, isn't that
lovely, just perfectly lovely?" NOT!!!
> There is no desire to see *reform* here. If true reform came who would
> their be next to blame? America itself is in such a state now. We have no
> outward enemy, but we must turn our frustrations, angers, egos on something,
> so we turn it on ourselves. There is no desire to see things change here -
> the kind of herculean effort it would take to change the Baha'i community so
> that this immaturity _on all sides_ that is strangling us could be finally
> put behind us - this undertaking is too frightening for all those that would
> rather sit bitterly on their hunches and cast stones and scream and curse . .
>
That you perceive the restrained, principled, objective
discourse of Chris Buck (*until* he read this post) to be
screaming and cursing says a lot about demonizing one's
adversary (as if the martyrdom stuff hadn't already run that
one up the PSR scale to the top).
God still loves you, and asks that you please stop saying these
things.
=END=
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 10:01:26 -0600
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bryan Stover
Subject: Danesh tape reference (was re: truth and unity)
Cc: Noorbakhsh Monzavi
At 04:04 PM 1/3/96 MEZ-1, Noorbakhsh Monzavi wrote:
>
> [...]
> I don't have any references to the article=20
> "Constructive Criticism is Destructive"
> at present time, but if i find it, will write it.
> =20
> I have not read/seen the article. What happened is that I was=
listening=20
> to some tapes from Danesh. In one of his talks he mentioned the phrase=
=20
> and said that he has written an article by this name.
> So I find the phrase interesting ...and write it to Talisman.
>
> His talks have actually been given in an intensive course on the=20
> subject of "marriage" in the summer school in Ireland, 1984.
>
The tape in question is, apparently, one of a series of ten tapes
by Dr. Danesh which is available from Keith Munro's "Unit Y Audio Tapes"=20
in Ireland. These tapes are thus described in the price list:
AUD:13-22 MARRIAGE : DR. HOSSAIN DANESH
The theme of "marriage" was taken as the main subject for a whole Irish
Summer School. Dr. Danesh, a psychiatrist, was invited to come from Canada
or the purpose of deepening the community on this vital subject. The ten
sessions covered the full range of Bah=E1'=ED marriage in all its aspects.=
His
relaxed and humorous style endeared him to the believers, who found him
easy to listen to as well as to understand. This subject, in the light of
the breakdown of society, and especially the institution of marriage, makes
it essential listening for all those who are in marriage or who contemplate
marriage. In order to allow as many Bah=E1'=EDs as possible to benefit from
these tapes the price has been kept as moderate as possible: The subjects
covered are:
1. Marriage in the New Age: Definitions
2. Forces that promote Unity
3. The Five Stages of Love
4. The Three Stages of Marriage.
5. Hindrances to Creative Love: Encouragement to Grow
6. Focus on Equality, Authoritarianism & Promiscuity
7. Questions & Answers.
8. Focus on Trust and Compassion -"The Story of the Basket."
9. Changing Ourselves in Marriage.
10. A Review of Marriage in the New Age.
TIME: approx. 540 mins
PRICE: =A327.00 (the set)
Details are available by e-mail from Dr. Munro at .
The price list can also be accessed on the World Wide Web at
Cheers, Bryan Stover
=END=
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 10:16:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: note of appreciation
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Ralph,
You kindly pointed out:
> Some of the spelling I see on this list and others amuses me,
> but-- Ahang, please distinguish between voracity and veracity!
Of course you are right and I apologize for the error. But
that's what I get for typing well after midnight, after having
worked in office for about 13 hours and then another 2.5 hours of
intense writing in Persian. By the time I get to Talisman at
midnight there is very little left in me. However, as ever, I am
profoundly grateful to receive corrections as in this instance.
affectionately, ahang.
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:25:41 -0400
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: milkman@ibl.bm (Alec Bourne)
Subject: subscribe
Allah'u'abha
Please subscribe me.
Milkman@ibl.bm
############################
## # ze von unt only Milkmeister #####
### Ze Milkiator############
####ze Milk-adilk-ading-dong#######
###########################
=END=
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 10:40:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: UHJ and Human Rights
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I wish to go on record expressing a strong dissent from Jim
Harrison's views and profound support for honorable and
enlightening postings of Chris Buck on human rights in Baha'i
community and Dialogue affair.
I am in awe with Chris for the admirable way in which he
supports a good Baha'i whose rights were betrayed unjustly. No
matter what other greatness I see from Chris in the future, for
ever, his recent courageous act is inscribed on my heart.
As for the Dialogue affair, while I clearly don't know all the
details, but from what I do know, in my view, a miscarriage of
justice did take place. My heart goes out to brave men like
Steve Scholl, David Langness, Tony Lee, Payam Afsharian and
others who suffered through this ordeal. I for one am proud of
the honorable way in which they have conducted themselves.
Further, I wish to go on the record supporting:
1. a petition to the Universal House of Justice that the case of
Dialogue incident be re-examined in light of *all* the facts
which previously may not have been available to the Supreme
infallible Body;
2. if economically feasible, the Dialogue magazine be restarted;
3. the US NSA publicly clarifies its position on the
administrative rights of the believers involved in this incident.
lovingly, ahang.
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:30:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights
Dear Jim and All,
I have been on Talisman for a year. The "Dialogue" episode seems
to capture most of the criticism regarding the administration of
Faith. We, seems to me, are actually making some headway here this
time.
As I understood it, the first step in consultation is gathering
facts - granted this is a painful issue for those involved
(the editors and the individuals serving on the Institutions of
the Faith) - but we are getting closer.
A lot of good can potentially come out of this discussion.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 12:19:37 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: talisman tranzilizers
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Well, it does seem that some signed on to Talisman this morning before taking
their tranquilizers.
Jim, I do agree with you. There is an element of truth in what you say about
people coming out of corners and making noises. There is a sense that people
are just putting their toes in the water for the first time to see what
happens. Of course this is the case. Talisman might be the very first
opportunity people have had to voice their grievances and opinions. It is
hardly suprising that they might not feel totally comfortable baring their
souls all at once. A little bit at a time might be all they can stand for the
moment.
Since there are some references to psychology here and there this morning, we
might think of a person in therapy who doesn't sit down and tell his or her
therapist every last detail of his life and all the pain that he has endured.
Indeed, he might not even be aware of it all. Little by little it emerges.
Eventually, it might just flow out and sound terribly strident. Dont' you
think this is what might be happening on Talisman? Is it really the fault of
the people who feel betrayed or misused that they are not blurting out every
grievance that they have? I am afraid I have not quite figured out exactly
what it is you want from us? You portray yourself as a wounded bird. You see
problems. Yet, you seem to think that things will somehow work out if we don't
discuss these matters. You keep telling us we should do something else, but,
for the life of me I haven't figured out what the "something else" is.
Perhaps you want us to go build hospitals in Bangladesh. I understand
Bangladesh is a place that could use some good Baha'i help. So, let me
announce that I am fund raising for this project and I am going to leave
a.s.a.p. to go build that hospital and call it the "Tahireh Baha'i Hospital
of Bangladesh." I will not ask for financial help from our financially
strapped institutions. This will be done completely at my own initiative.
O.K., folks, I'll let you all complete this scenario. What would happen if I
were to do such a thing? Would I be allowed to do this?
Linda
=END=
Date: 5 Jan 96 09:45:52 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights
To: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca, talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: RE>UHJ on Human Rights
Chris and other members of the Tribe -
This is great. I can use these. I was just approached by a Lutheran group who
is the recipient of a major grant to establish an interfaith dialogue re:
homosexuality. The first conference is asking Bill Moyers to be the main
speaker..... As I have stated before, as a gay man I see the Baha'i community
and its so called "commitment" to human rights differently, because it seems
uneven and it is going to be applied differently to homosexuals.
More later when I find out more about the Lutherans ..... Daniel (gay not
grumpy)
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:20:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: dialogue with Peter Khan
As has been mentioned by several friends, a copy of Peter Khan's talk on
"The Challenge of Tests", delivered at the House of Worship in Wilmette
on September 23, is reprinted in the latest issue of the American
Baha'i. Although Linda and others have objected to aspects of it, I
think it shows some very positive developments. I know Professor Khan
slightly, and he used to teach in the institution that now employs me
(what a comedown for U-Mich!), and I have always been impressed by his
clarity and solidity. I especially like the way he has deemphasized
magical, "calamity" thinking. Professor Khan is by training an
electrical engineer, brought up in Australia, of Pakistani-Punjabi
heritage.
Professor Khan identifies three sorts of tests facing American Baha'is:
1. the need to develop spirituality in a materialistic environment
2. increasing our commitment to the betterment of humanity in a time of
apathy and cynicism
3. need to regain some idealism with regard to our governing institutions
I think none of these points is controversial, and certainly they are
things Baha'is stand for. Consumerism and instrumental rationality have
undermined values of ethical and mystical self-betterment in most
societies worldwide, and no effect riposte has been mounted; even
communism has fallen before the retail sale. The late '70s and '80s
witnessed a turn away from social idealism toward a ruthless sense of
self-aggrandizement in the U.S., but recently there has been a renewed
interest in teaching, social work and other materially unrewarding but
people-oriented professions. Many Americans, sick of the treadmill, are
downgrading to a less affluent but more rewarding style of life. The
last point is especially important in the wake of Oklahoma city. Some
13% of Americans believe the Federal government is evil, and the
Republican party has been captured by a far Right bent on dismantling the
New Deal welfare state, with terrible consequences for the poor,
children, the elderly and the weak.
Where I have questions relates to matters of detail and metaphor, not, I
think, to substance.
1. Professor Khan employs the metaphor of the magnet to explain the
power of unity. As we now know, a piece of iron becomes a magnet when
its dipoles are all facing the same direction. But I would argue that
this metaphor is anachronistic, in the sense that Baha'u'llah and
`Abdu'l-Baha certainly never used the word "magnet" with this idea in
mind--they thought of the "lodestone" as an attractive force, as in
classical and medieval thought.
The problem with the contemporary conception of a magnet as a
metaphor for unity is that it rules out differentiation. We all have to
be iron atoms. We all have to face the same direction. Moreover,
magnets are fragile. You drop one on the floor and it reverts to just
being a piece of iron.
I would argue that on the contrary, Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha had
an *organic* conception of unity. The key metaphors are the human body
or the garden. These are organized and work together, but they are
internally differentiated and *don't* all point in the same direction.
The garden is distinguished from forest or jungle in being cleared and
organized on some aesthetic plan. But it is also distinguished from the
mere lawn, a monoculture of grass. A magnet is more like a lawn than a
garden.
This nitpicking about metaphors is actually important. A human body
has a left brain for rational thought and a right brain for intuition and
esthetics. It needs both and would be crippled without one or the
other. Organic unity is unity in *diversity.* You can drop a human
being on the floor, and she retains her organic unity, even if she is
bruised.
2. Professor Khan speaks of a number of "mental" tests we all face, and
these are perceptive. The last one is a distrust of social institutions,
a la Timothy McVey. "People in our society increasingly feel a sense of
powerlessness in relation to their authorities. They find themselves
insignificant, unable to change the system . . . Therefore they often
resort to radical actions outside the system . . ."
Obviously, some 15% of Americans do feel this way. I believe this is for
two reasons. First, they have been reduced from a public to a mass by the
current system, as C. Wright Mills and Jurgen Habermas have pointed out.
If the U.S. were more participatory, there would be less alienation,
especially in the West where the Government is such a big landowner.
Second, the wages of the average worker have been stagnant since 1972 in
real terms, and a whole generation of a hopeless working class and lower
middle class is growing up, used to frequent downsizing, loss of
highly-paid factory jobs, with little prospect for the future; and all
this is at a time when the top 1% of wealth-holders has increased its
share of the privately held wealth from %24 in 1979 to nearly 40% now.
Michigan, with its closed GM plants is not for nothing the home of the
Michigan militia.
Professor Khan is also worried about the importation of the American
brand of Ayn Rand libertarianism and hostility to governing institutions
into the Baha'i Faith. I do not know if this is a big problem in the
community. I did notice when I was on Bahai-discuss that there were very
conservative Baha'is who sounded more like the Heritage Foundation than
like Abdu'l-Baha.
But to the extent that this problem exists, there are *two* possible
solutions. One is to pressure Baha'is for more conformity, more
obedience to the institutions. The other is to make the institutions
more accountable and participatory. In a voluntary society such as the
Baha'i Faith, it strikes me that the latter is more likely to succeed,
and is more in accordance with the principles revealed by Baha'u'llah.
After living in the Middle East all those years, I have come to love the
U.S. constitution in a way probably unusual in my generation of
Americans. And gazing upon the theocracy of Iran and the priestocracy of
some other religions, I love the Baha'i institutions, grounded in lay
democracy.
But what seems to me to be missing from Professor Khan's talk is any way
in which dysfunction can be addressed. Sure, we should not be dissuaded
by dysfunction from our love for the faith or the institutions, just as
one does not stop loving an alcoholic father. But it does the father no
good to ignore his problem; one must insist he get treatment. Professor
Khan admits there is dysfunction, and that it is a test. But aside from
simply *enduring* and *persevering*, he does not seem to have any
suggestions for *dealing practically with the problem.*
Finally, there is a passage in the talk to which I take deep exception.
I am sure Professor Khan did not mean to be negative. But he quotes
Shoghi Effendi saying that knowledge and appreciation of the Covenant
will enable a Baha'i "to withstand every test and the attacks of the
enemies outside the Faith *and the far more dangerous, insidious,
lukewarm people inside the Faith who have no real attachment to the
Covenant,* and consequently uphold the intellectual aspect of the
teachings while at the same time undermining the spiritual foundation
upon which the whole Cause of God rests."
I am almost certain that the Guardian was referring to Ahmad Sohrab and
the New History society here. Richard? Rob? Can you help?
For this quote to be resurrected in Wilmette in the 1990s, at a time when
there is no evidence of Sohrabism, was extremely unwise. It inevitably
fed a current of anti-intellectualism. It undermined the May 1994 letter
of the House to the US NSA and community, and was interpreted by some
authoritarian elements in the community as a green light to go after the
intellectuals (despite Professor Khan's plea for "no witch hunts"). I am
at a loss to know what provoked this use of this quote.
On the other hand, there is a positive side to all this. If Professor
Khan's plea for Baha'is to avoid branding others lukewarm, but simply to
concentrate on deepening *themselves* in the Covenant were taken
seriously, its effect would be greater pluralism. Some in the community
might think of themselves as more deepened, more committed to the
Covenant than others (just as Opus Dei adepts do in Catholicism); but
they would not disparage those they disapproved of, and would live and
let live.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:24:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Michael: We've gotten to a point now where there are few significant
differences, only matters of style and tactics. Thanks!
cheers Juan
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:33:10 EST
Subject: Responds
Dearest ...,
This is truly a global therapy session. Anything from people who
feel upset with one's spelling to how we should feel grateful for not being
shot, sent into prison camps, torture chambers etc.. Wheeew!
Colors of the rainbow on the spectrum of light!! All right here!
Goodness, some documentation for posterity of 1990's global
community on talismatherapy!!
Sorry Linda! If I could only stop drinking coffee, I will be fine without
tranquillizers which I never tried. I quit caffeine for awhile. But,
now I am back on it again by popular demand from my dulled and bored
brain cells.
Sorry Jim! If, I put salt and pepper on the wounds of your
broken-wing, beloved falcon! But, I know you never take offense. Right???
Love is not always tender. Sometimes it is granity-tough. (my
spelling)
Sorry Ralph! I am not going to worry about spelling. You just have
learn to live with it. Hope you'll get over it soon.
lovingly (believe it or not)
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 12:39:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Mashriqul Adhkar
Dear All,
I have heard on more than one occasion how Baha'is had a
difficult time maintaing "Baha'i Centers" - that everybody wanted
one but not enough people took the responsibilty of caring for
one. A friend one mine mentioned that he though one reason for
lack respect for a Baha'i Center was the name - it does not
convey a sense of a holy place - Mashriqul Adhkar definitely
does.
I would like to take up Chris on his suggestion. I live in
College Station, Texas - actually the twin cities of Bryan
and College Station. Together we have about 45-50 Baha'is and
now considering a Baha'i Center. Both cities have LSAs - we
have some money and a piece of land, Bryan also has some
money saved.
Can we get the plans of your brother-in-law? Can you give a description
of design and an estimated cost?
A while ago my father made the following suggestion at our
District Concention: that all the communties who have saving
accounts for Baha'i Centers pool their money together in one
account. Then each community can apply for a loan from that
Fund. Some sort of board would evaluate loan applications and
grant them based on some agreed system of priority. This sort
of arrangement would not require a change in the pattern of
contributions to the various Funds.
The actual task of building the structure could be
something wherein Baha'is in the field of construction could
volunteer their skills and travel around the country to the
various construction sites - also a great opportunity for
youth on their Year of Service. Many small churches are built in
this manner.
You guys up to a good ole Mashriqul Adhkar raising?!
take care,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:18:54 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Review
Hello all,... I have a question that recently came up on another list...
"if someone is going to write a book on the Bahai Faith what is the process
that is necessary to get it published"
Several times there was mentioned "review" on this forum, and as a person
who only reads books not write them, nor has any clue as to the publishing
procedures... Can you give me the "Readers Digest" Version, of what that
process is. Is is completed after the article or book is written and in
first draft, during the writing process, after submission to the publisher?
Thanks, Margreet
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:19:04 -0800
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights
Howdy...
I have to state that the tone of these discussions is disturbing.
I am under the impression that the *single code of international law*
described by the Guardian has yet to be written... It may be years before
all this happens. We are still seeing evidences of everything the Guardian
states, and we will not have this *single code of international law* until
the economic barriers are torn down, capital and labor solve their
differences, religions is free to be worshipped, and racial harmony is
achieved.
Sounds like Chris et al is putting the cart before the horse as we have yet
to solve these problems. I have a ditto machine copy of a letter written by
Ruhhiyyah Khanum, (spel?) in about 1947-49 or so, where she states that the
American Believer has to love the Guardian more. He is so overworked, not
enough *qualified* (my words) workers to assist him in his work... is the
gist of the letter. It is a whole page long, but the gist of it is
precisely that. In my studies of the Guardian over the past 10 years, I
can understand the Guardian frustrations... gads, that man was incredible at
what he was doing. Some of the concepts were so far beyond our *way of
thinkings* that it was hard for most to comprehend what the Guardian had in
mind. Yet, it was so simple to him.
I have a story about the gardens He wanted planted.... the gardener was all
frustrated over how the Guardian wanted each plant... When the gardener ask
Shoghi Effendi about it, the Guardian just bent over and stuck his finger in
the soil.... put in a plant. Then used his hand to measure with, at the end
of his reach, stuck in a finger and in put a plant.. So complicated, yet so
simple.
This wonderful Bahai Faith is just a paradigm shift from previous religions.
Never before in the History of Mankind has there been this type of
*religion* And being a Bahai for as many years as I have, and having it in
my family for all those years too, it is not just a religion, it is a way of
life for me at least...
Warmly, Margreet
At 12:24 AM 1/5/96 EST, Christopher Buck wrote:
>Further on, the Guardian is quoted:
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>"A world community in which all economic barriers will have been
> permanently demolished and the interdependence of capital and labour
> definitely recognized; in which the clamour of religious fanaticism
> and strife will have been forever stilled; in which the flame of
> racial animosity will have been finally extinguished; in which a
> single code of international law--the product of the considered
> judgement of the world's federated representatives--shall have as its
> sanction the instant and coercive intervention of the combined forces
> of the federated units ...".
>
>COMMENTS
> In the second excerpt, the Guardian speaks of the inevitability of
>*single code of international law*.
>
>
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:19:07 -0800
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Reform, Again
Howdy...
I am not advocating a religion called Bahai Reform--American, or the
Institute of the Reformed Bahai's .... (chuckle) (grin) OK Just for
clarity....
I know some of you want some sort of *reform* I really do not understand it
all as it is.... Instead of *reform* how about a paradigm shift... The
workings of the Administration Order is perfect... Our Beloved Guardian
set it up according to his instructions from Abdul'Baha... Shoghi Effendi
was around Abdul'Baha for most of his childhood, and I am quite certain that
during his years of growing up, Abdul'Baha trained him, counseled him,
nurtured him, ect..as to how the Bahai Faith was to be in later years and
beyond....
I was in Chicago in 1986 for that reading of the New 6 year plan, 1986-1992
in which it was a different one... it started at the grassroots level,
remember, instead of top down from the NSA to the LSA like before...
Well, we had those *town meetings* from what I could see, in my distict, we
were like a kid in a candy store, with no one to slap our wrist should there
be something wrong. It was like all of the sudden, we had *power* but
because we never had it before, we did not know how to deal with it...
As I have stated before, in that in my neck of the woods here in the Pacific
Northwest, that if you have the ability to teach people, are one of the few
who have that *magnetic* persona about you, and strangers come up to ask you
questions, forget about teaching.... Some how, some way, you will be placed
on some *dang* ol committee to decipher how to go about the next teaching
campaign. Never fails...
I honestly feel that it is not the institutions that need changing, it is
the believers that need to change. The believers need to deepen more,
become more aware of the Covenent of Baha'u'llah, and the believers need to
be aware of the various talents, skills and whatever training needed of the
others in the community to better foster the plans laid for that community.
I see time and time again, Bahai's on burnout from overwork, yet most of the
gripes come from stating *not enough talent or skills* to serve on the
committees to get the job done.
Warmly, Margreet
=END=
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 13:01:23 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Chris/Jim dialogue on U.H.J. and Human Rights
Dear friends.
I was not completely certain what Chris Buck meant in a previous posting,
when he stated that;
"whoever the individual *Learned in Baha'* are (apart from the Institution
of the Learned), ideally they are characterized by a unitive exercise of
speech, as a reflex of wisdom. Lest the arrow of elitism strike me in the
heart, for all to see in the cyberspace colosseum, I hasten to add that the
same, of course, applies to us all."
Having perused Chris's and Jim's postings this morning, I now believe I have
a better understanding of what is meant by "unitive speech" or "unitive
discourse". I thank them both for this example.
Sincerely
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 12:15 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Mashriqul Adhkar
This thing of using big foreign words bugs me. Why do we call some things
in the Baha'i Faith by untranslated terms? Why do feast letters in English
call the month by a non-english name when the balance of the letter is in
english? I think it silly and affected, but many think that about me. What
is " Mashriqul Adhkar" in English? In Spanish?
How about just calling it what it is in the language of where we live and in
the language of the people who live here? My 14 year old still cannot
pronounce "thy" and "thou" or really understand why it isn't in "real
English." Is this " Mashriqul Adhkar" created for us, or us for it?
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 12:05:38 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Resurrection and Renewal .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
My dear Juan and fellow Talismanians
The problem with Amanat's book is not that it was written or that he
states a view at variance to others rather the direction that the book
comes from . I do believe that religions start in the ethos of the
society to which the Higher Prophet belongs . That the understanding
of the first believers of the new revelation is colored and effected by
the society of origin . I also am of the firm conviction to gain an
insight into the statement of certain laws and ordinances in a new
religion one needs to study the society and religion of origin .
However I do not accept Amanat's hypothesis that religions are a
result of social conditions . That those social conditions shape and
determine the nature and type of the new religion . Abbas himself
states : ' The Babi movement presents a unique case for it makes the
relevance of religious doctrine to sociopolitical processes
exceptionally lucid . '
His use of sources is his own concern . I do not personally accept
that the Nuqtat al-Kaf is the pre-eminent source of Babi and Baha'
history . One could argue that a major flaw in his
discourse is the heavy dependence on a source the origins of which
are dubious . I have 12 different histories of the Faith in my personal
collection .There are substantive differences between them , I would
expect nothing less . When I look into those histories I do so with the
eye of a believer . I do not place the station of the Bab as that of
an ordinary man achieving notoriety . I find Amanat's treatment of the
Bab's martyrdom especially offensive to quote : ' The intensity of the
moment of execution and the panic of the condemned ..... Moreover ,
the Bab's desire for martyrdom was too deep-rooted to be checked by
a natural desire for self-protection ' It really depends whether you
look upon such matters as a believer , a sympathetic observer , a
sympathetic researcher , a disinterested researcher , a theological
opponent or an academic opponent , an avowed enemy or hater . I
suggest in Amanat's attempt to be a disinterested researcher he
comes over more as an academic opponent to the average reader .
The irony is that the book was not intended for the general market
but rather it's correct place in my view for the narrow academic field
of those studying Shi'ite Iranian religious movements of the 19th
century .
Contary to Ahang's view there are more than 3 people who have read
Amanat's sources and do not agree with his findings . I have a copy of
his original dissertation on which the book is based . He did produce
original work there can be no denying that and I would be the first to
defend his contribution . For Tony to state it is the definitive work
on Babi and Baha'i history not to be surpassed for decades I find to be
amusing . Why a book written by a person who is not a Baha'i has to
held up as the watershed mark of Babi and Baha'i scholarship is
beyond my comprehension . I have a letter from the Universal House
of Justice that states that Resurrection and Renewal is written by a
non-Baha'i . Abbas's own brother says the man is not a Baha'i, he
himself has stated on more than one occasion in a public forum he is
not a believer . If he is then the question begs to answered why was
the book not reviewed , I do not believe the book would have passed
review in 1988 or in 1996 .
If you wish I will be happy to post a
whole variety of items from the book which are demeaning to the Bab
and let you all judge for yourselves or simply go and obtain a copy .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 12:12:03 -0800
To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: dialogue with Peter Khan
At 01:20 PM 1/5/96 -0500, Juan R Cole wrote:
You stated something about left brain/right brain.. I am going in to see if
the two halves of my brain have ever been turned on, and are working
together... LOL LOL
>But to the extent that this problem exists, there are *two* possible
>solutions. One is to pressure Baha'is for more conformity, more
>obedience to the institutions. The other is to make the institutions
>more accountable and participatory. In a voluntary society such as the
>Baha'i Faith, it strikes me that the latter is more likely to succeed,
>and is more in accordance with the principles revealed by Baha'u'llah.
Sounds like the truth is somewhere in the middle.
>After living in the Middle East all those years, I have come to love the
>U.S. constitution in a way probably unusual in my generation of
>Americans. And gazing upon the theocracy of Iran and the priestocracy of
>some other religions, I love the Baha'i institutions, grounded in lay
>democracy.
>
>But what seems to me to be missing from Professor Khan's talk is any way
>in which dysfunction can be addressed. Sure, we should not be dissuaded
>by dysfunction from our love for the faith or the institutions, just as
>one does not stop loving an alcoholic father. But it does the father no
>good to ignore his problem; one must insist he get treatment. Professor
>Khan admits there is dysfunction, and that it is a test. But aside from
>simply *enduring* and *persevering*, he does not seem to have any
>suggestions for *dealing practically with the problem.*
But he brought out into the open the problem... to get us to think...
>Finally, there is a passage in the talk to which I take deep exception.
>I am sure Professor Khan did not mean to be negative. But he quotes
>Shoghi Effendi saying that knowledge and appreciation of the Covenant
>will enable a Baha'i "to withstand every test and the attacks of the
>enemies outside the Faith *and the far more dangerous, insidious,
>lukewarm people inside the Faith who have no real attachment to the
>Covenant,* and consequently uphold the intellectual aspect of the
>teachings while at the same time undermining the spiritual foundation
>upon which the whole Cause of God rests."
>
>I am almost certain that the Guardian was referring to Ahmad Sohrab and
>the New History society here. Richard? Rob? Can you help?
I know people who are insidious, lukewarm people inside the Faith... but
part of Khan's talk is 1. for my growth--not to point fingers, and 2. for
the others growth to check to see if it is true for them.
As we can only be concerned with our own spiritual growth and maturity.
>For this quote to be resurrected in Wilmette in the 1990s, at a time when
>there is no evidence of Sohrabism, was extremely unwise. It inevitably
>fed a current of anti-intellectualism. It undermined the May 1994 letter
>of the House to the US NSA and community, and was interpreted by some
>authoritarian elements in the community as a green light to go after the
>intellectuals (despite Professor Khan's plea for "no witch hunts"). I am
>at a loss to know what provoked this use of this quote.
>
>On the other hand, there is a positive side to all this. If Professor
>Khan's plea for Baha'is to avoid branding others lukewarm, but simply to
>concentrate on deepening *themselves* in the Covenant were taken
>seriously, its effect would be greater pluralism. Some in the community
>might think of themselves as more deepened, more committed to the
>Covenant than others (just as Opus Dei adepts do in Catholicism); but
>they would not disparage those they disapproved of, and would live and
>let live.
>
>
>cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
>
>
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:22:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: subscribe
Sorry to take up band-width with this.
I tried subscribing through Mojordomo, etc. Either it isn't getting
through or John is just bored of listening to me talk and is refusing to
subscribe me. :)
Please subscribe.
stephen johnson
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 12:18 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: talisman tranzilizers
Linda, demure and whispering, yodeled:
" I understand Bangladesh is a place that could use some good Baha'i help.
So, let me announce that I am fund raising for this project and I am going
to leave a.s.a.p. to go build that hospital and call it the "Tahireh Baha'i
Hospital of Bangladesh." I will not ask for financial help from our
financially strapped institutions. This will be done completely at my own
initiative...Would I be allowed to do this? "
Burl, still nasal from a cold, says:
Allowed by the Bangladesh Medical Community? The hospital board of
Bangladesh? No, you mean the Baha'i NSA of Bangladesh or the UHJ, right?
Sure. Go ahead. I bet that you will be asked to not call it the "Baha'i"
hospital as that implies that it is owned and operated by the Baha'i
Community or that the Baha'i community is responsible for the shady dealings
in the pharmacy. Build a chain of hospitals if you want, but I think your
"problem" would be the same if you called the hospital
Mount Sinai Jewish Hospital. You would not be discouraged from building the
hospital, dedicating it to Baha'u'llah, putting a quote from the Sacred Text
above the door, building the hospital as an exact replica of the House of
Abdulla Pasha, (well maybe) or anything -- swell idea..go do it. Send me a
postcard showing your nine sides.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 08:28:18 PST
Subject: RE: Mashriq and Phillip's question
To: talisman@indiana.edu, TLCULHANE@aol.com
Thank you, Terry.
It was quite beautiful.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/05/96
Time: 08:28:18
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Resurrection and Renewal .
To: DEREK COCKSHUT
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 15:46:12 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to DEREK COCKSHUT:
> an ordinary man achieving notoriety . I find Amanat's treatment of the
> Bab's martyrdom especially offensive to quote : ' The intensity of the
> moment of execution and the panic of the condemned ..... Moreover ,
> the Bab's desire for martyrdom was too deep-rooted to be checked by
> a natural desire for self-protection ' It really depends whether you
> look upon such matters as a believer , a sympathetic observer , a
> sympathetic researcher , a disinterested researcher , a theological
> opponent or an academic opponent , an avowed enemy or hater . I
> suggest in Amanat's attempt to be a disinterested researcher he
> comes over more as an academic opponent to the average reader .
Only if the average reader is a Baha'i! I read the book and
was tremendously impressed by its depth and balance, and it
never occurred to me that he came across as an "opponent."
Some Theosophists have seen my work as that of an opponent
rather than a believer; I think this, like Baha'i reactions to
Amanat, is based on misunderstandings and imaginings.
> The irony is that the book was not intended for the general market
> but rather it's correct place in my view for the narrow academic field
> of those studying Shi'ite Iranian religious movements of the 19th
> century .
>
> Contary to Ahang's view there are more than 3 people who have read
> Amanat's sources and do not agree with his findings . I have a copy of
> his original dissertation on which the book is based . He did produce
> original work there can be no denying that and I would be the first to
> defend his contribution . For Tony to state it is the definitive work
> on Babi and Baha'i history not to be surpassed for decades I find to be
> amusing . Why a book written by a person who is not a Baha'i has to
> held up as the watershed mark of Babi and Baha'i scholarship is
> beyond my comprehension .
"has to be"? That's not Tony's doing; it's by default because
Baha'is have produced nothing remotely comparable.
I have a letter from the Universal House
> of Justice that states that Resurrection and Renewal is written by a
> non-Baha'i . Abbas's own brother says the man is not a Baha'i, he
> himself has stated on more than one occasion in a public forum he is
> not a believer . If he is then the question begs to answered why was
> the book not reviewed , I do not believe the book would have passed
> review in 1988 or in 1996 .
So, by your definition, Amanat's non-Baha'i status excludes him
from possibly writing a work that is a watershed? Makes me
wonder what assumptions guided your forthcoming review of my
book.
>
> If you wish I will be happy to post a
> whole variety of items from the book which are demeaning to the Bab
> and let you all judge for yourselves or simply go and obtain a copy .
"Demeaning" is in the eye of the beholder, as I have definitely
learned from the outrage of a bunch of Theosophists!
>
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:04:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Mashriqul Adhkar
Dear Burl,
Your wish is granted: The Dawning Place (of the Mention of God).
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 96 10:19 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall
Subject: Re: dialogue with Peter Khan
The text of the full letter was posted on Talisman a while ago. Here it is:
15 April 19491
As he has cabled the N.S.A. a few days ago, he feels that the
difficulties which have arisen in Germany, and which called forth the letter
you rightly felt was likely to cause more harm than good, are mainly due to
the fact that the believers need to be deepened in their knowledge and
appreciation of the Covenants of both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha. This is
the stronghold of the Faith of every Baha'i, and that which enables him to
withstand every test and the attacks of the enemies outside the Faith, and
the far more dangerous, insidious, lukewarm people inside the Faith who have
no real attachment to the Covenant, and consequently uphold the intellectual
aspect of the teachings while at the same time undermining the spiritual
foundation upon which the whole Cause of God rests.
He feels you and your dear family should do all you can to teach the
believers the Will and Testament to strengthen their understanding of its
important provisions; for all the authority of the administrative bodies, as
well as of the Guardian himself, is mainly derived from this tremendous
document.
(Light of Div. Guidance: Vol 2, page 84)
------------------
I was hoping that Peter Khan was referring to people who turn Feast and
Assembly meetings into Board meetings, and who forget that the
administration is supposed to be a means to an end: a channel for spirituality.
Alison
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alison and Steve Marshall
Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:01:13 PST8PDT
Subject: Re: Reform, Again (Shoghi Effendi in america?)
Greetings Blessed Ones,
another random thought...
re:
> Date sent: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:19:07 -0800
> To: Talisman@indiana.edu
> From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
> Subject: Reform, Again
...snip
> I know some of you want some sort of *reform* I really do not understand it
> all as it is.... Instead of *reform* how about a paradigm shift... The
> workings of the Administration Order is perfect... Our Beloved Guardian
> set it up according to his instructions from Abdul'Baha... Shoghi Effendi
> was around Abdul'Baha for most of his childhood, and I am quite certain that
> during his years of growing up, Abdul'Baha trained him, counseled him,
> nurtured him, ect..as to how the Bahai Faith was to be in later years and
> beyond....
After reading that Abdu'l-Baha intended to bring Shoghi Effendi as a child
on the USA trip, but couldn't due to SE's illness, I have wondered if or
how SE's thinking about and guidance to the USA Baha'is would have been
different. Yes he had lots of exposure to american pilgrims, but the
behaviour of those folks probably wasn't necessarily typical of what they
were like at home, and even less so than non-Baha'i americans.
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
=END=
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 13:57:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Review of the Babi materials
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Could Rob Stockman or someone else please clarify why a Baha'i
needs to have his writings on the Babi Dispensation processed
through review?
If I was writing on, say, the Islam, or statistics, and it had
nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith, presumably I don't need to
go through review, so why the Babi Dispensation which we hold as
an independent religion?
And what of the Shaykhis? If I wrote a book on the life and
writings of Shaykh Ahmad or Haj Muhammad Karim Khan and wanted a
non-Baha'i publisher would I need to have it reviewed by Wilmette
first? If not, then why so on the Babi Faith?
Thank you in advance for your clarification.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 13:06:14 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Resurrection and Renewal .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
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From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Message-Id: <199601052046.PAA22477@leo.vsla.edu>
Subject: Re: Resurrection and Renewal .
To: DEREK COCKSHUT
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 15:46:12 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
In-Reply-To: <199601052005.MAA18053@ix13.ix.netcom.com>; from "DEREK
COCKSHUT" at Jan 5, 96 12:05 pm
X-Mailer: PENELM [version 2.3.1 PL11]
According to DEREK COCKSHUT:
> an ordinary man achieving notoriety . I find Amanat's treatment of
the
> Bab's martyrdom especially offensive to quote : ' The intensity of
the
> moment of execution and the panic of the condemned ..... Moreover ,
> the Bab's desire for martyrdom was too deep-rooted to be checked by
> a natural desire for self-protection ' It really depends whether you
> look upon such matters as a believer , a sympathetic observer , a
> sympathetic researcher , a disinterested researcher , a theological
> opponent or an academic opponent , an avowed enemy or hater . I
> suggest in Amanat's attempt to be a disinterested researcher he
> comes over more as an academic opponent to the average reader .
Only if the average reader is a Baha'i! I read the book and
was tremendously impressed by its depth and balance, and it
never occurred to me that he came across as an "opponent."
Some Theosophists have seen my work as that of an opponent
rather than a believer; I think this, like Baha'i reactions to
Amanat, is based on misunderstandings and imaginings.
When the book is put forward as the definitive work of course it causes
hurt in the heart of the average believer . Nobody has the right to
wilfully damage the belief of another in my view. That has nothing to
do with the depth of Amanat's research I just do not agree with many of
his conclusions . I always thought the right to disagree was an
intellectual goal .
> The irony is that the book was not intended for the general market
> but rather it's correct place in my view for the narrow academic
field
> of those studying Shi'ite Iranian religious movements of the 19th
> century .
>
> Contary to Ahang's view there are more than 3 people who have read
> Amanat's sources and do not agree with his findings . I have a copy
of
> his original dissertation on which the book is based . He did produce
> original work there can be no denying that and I would be the first
to
> defend his contribution . For Tony to state it is the definitive
work
> on Babi and Baha'i history not to be surpassed for decades I find to
be
> amusing . Why a book written by a person who is not a Baha'i has to
> held up as the watershed mark of Babi and Baha'i scholarship is
> beyond my comprehension .
"has to be"? That's not Tony's doing; it's by default because
Baha'is have produced nothing remotely comparable.
I do not believe it is the definitive work which is why I posted that .
I have a letter from the Universal House
> of Justice that states that Resurrection and Renewal is written by a
> non-Baha'i . Abbas's own brother says the man is not a Baha'i, he
> himself has stated on more than one occasion in a public forum he is
> not a believer . If he is then the question begs to answered why was
> the book not reviewed , I do not believe the book would have passed
> review in 1988 or in 1996 .
So, by your definition, Amanat's non-Baha'i status excludes him
from possibly writing a work that is a watershed? Makes me
wonder what assumptions guided your forthcoming review of my
book.
> That you appear to have made a detailed study of your subject . It is
a continuation of a writing theme . You are not writing to further your
academic career but expressing deeply held convictions .
> If you wish I will be happy to post a
> whole variety of items from the book which are demeaning to the Bab
> and let you all judge for yourselves or simply go and obtain a copy .
"Demeaning" is in the eye of the beholder, as I have definitely
learned from the outrage of a bunch of Theosophists!
> Demeaning is a callous attack on the intentions of One I regard as a
Higher Prophet.
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:09:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: dialogue with Peter Khan
On Fri, 5 Jan 1996, Juan R Cole wrote:
"to withstand every test and the attacks of the
> enemies outside the Faith *and the far more dangerous, insidious,
> lukewarm people inside the Faith who have no real attachment to the
> Covenant,* and consequently uphold the intellectual aspect of the
> teachings while at the same time undermining the spiritual foundation
> upon which the whole Cause of God rests."
>
> I am almost certain that the Guardian was referring to Ahmad Sohrab and
> the New History society here. Richard? Rob? Can you help?
This letter, written on behalf of the Guardian, is dated 15 April 1949
and seems to have been addressed to an individual in
Germany. By this date the New History
Society controversy had, for the most part, faded from the scene within
the Baha'i community and there was little contact between Baha'is and
members of the Society. The Caravan of East West continued on a
trajectory increasingly disassociated from the Faith, so, although it had
members in Germany, it seems unlikely that this refers directly to
followers or sympathizers of Ahmad Sohrab.
I would like to draw attention to the opening sentence of this letter,
which was not quoted in Dr. Kahn's talk: "As he has cabled the N.S.A. a
few days ago, he feels that the difficulties which have arisen in
Germany, and which called forth the letter you rightly felt was likely to
cause more harm than good, are mainly due to the fact that the believers
need to be deepened in their knowledge and appreciation of the Covenants
of both Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha."
The sentence quoted by Dr. Kahn immediately follows this sentence.
Without knowing the full circumstances to which this letter was a
response, it would appear that the letter on behalf of the Guardian was
concerned both with those who accepted the Baha'i teachings without
accepting Baha'i administration (and such Baha'is were found in different
countries in the West)-- and to those who over-reacted to such individuals,
in this instance by circulating an apparently intemperate letter.
Richard Hollinger
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:25:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: KI pp.24-26
These are the melodies, sung by Jesus, Son of
Mary, in accents of majestic power in the &Ridvan
of the Gospel, revealing those signs that must needs
herald the advent of the Manifestation after Him.
In the first Gospel according to Matthew it is
recorded: And when they asked Jesus concerning
the signs of His coming, He said unto them: "Immediately
after the oppression+F1 of those days shall
the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give
her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and
the powers of the earth shall be shaken: and then
shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the
clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And
he shall send his angels with a great sound of a
trumpet."+F2 Rendered into the Persian tongue,+F3 the
purport of these words is as follows: When the
oppression and afflictions that are to befall mankind
will have come to pass, then shall the sun
be withheld from shining, the moon from giving
light, the stars of heaven shall fall upon the earth,
and the pillars of the earth shall quake. At that
time, the signs of the Son of man shall appear in
heaven, that is, the promised Beauty and Substance
of life shall, when these signs have appeared, step
forth out of the realm of the invisible into the visible
world. And He saith: at that time, all the
peoples and kindreds that dwell on earth shall bewail
and lament, and they shall see that divine
Beauty coming from heaven, riding upon the
clouds with power, grandeur, and magnificence,
sending His angels with a great sound of a trumpet.
Similarly, in the three other Gospels, according
to Luke, Mark, and John, the same statements
are recorded. As We have referred at length to
these in Our Tablets revealed in the Arabic tongue,
We have made no mention of them in these
pages, and have confined Ourselves to but one
reference.
+F1 The Greek word used (Thlipsis) has two meanings: pressure and
oppression.
+F2 Matthew 24:29-31.
+F3 The passage is quoted by &Baha'u'llah in Arabic and interpreted in
Persian.
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 00:43:43 +0100 (MET)
Subject: dialogue letter
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Mark wrote:
My concern is that, after reading the 1989 letter, it
appears to me that some of the viewpoints which the
House criticized and recommended modifying (re:
_Dialogue_ and the California group) continue to
dominate many of the postings on Talisman.
Do I take that as implying that political theological and scholarly
opinions radiating from Haifa, or implicit in the statements of the
House itself, SHOULD lead us to alter our viewpoints? Of
course they might have that effect, to the extent that they are
grounded in a thorough understanding of the writings and history
of the faith well-reasoned and effectively addressed to the
contemporary situation of the audience. They do not seem to
have actually had that effect, and I see no reason for considering,
prescriptively, that they OUGHT to have such an effect. In such
matters the House can quite simply be wrong - and time may
show it to have been wrong. I feel the same way about the rights
and freedoms letter - rather than doing a quick one-two to get in
step, I considered it carefully and concluded that it did not
express the best in Baha'i teachings on this issue or show a deep
understanding of the enlightenment principles underlying (but not
perfectly manifest in) western social and political structures.
So far as I understand it, this is OK. The sphere of
infallibility of the House is limited to legislating on matters not
specifically revealed in the Book, and even in legislation I would
assume - given Baha'i teachings on freedom and conscience - that
it would be perfectly in order to disagree while obeying (and that
infallibility is in any case not propositional). The same applies in
the wider sphere of the Houses' authority beyond the guarantee of
infallibility, so it must certainly apply in an area which is not
even within the sphere of the Houses' authority.
So if you think that an argument made in one of the
House's letters has not been sufficiently heard, I think you have
to cite the argument and the case, and try to reason it out. Isn't
your statement above essentially an appeal to authority?
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 00:44:36 +0100 (MET)
Subject: applying teachings
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Brent,
you posted a message on the policy of non-interference in
government which contained two quotes from WOB on the topic
of 'the power of the House to infallibly apply the Teachings.'
The first, which you cited in full, was from p 145, but it refers to
an *authority* to apply 'His legislative ordinances', not to any
infallibility in doing so. The second which you referred to was
on pp 19-20, but at least in my edition (1980 reprint of the 1974
2nd revised edition) this again does not refer to infallibility in
applying the teachings.
I submit that the topic should be 'the power of the House
to apply the Teachings - right or wrong'.
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 00:45:21 +0100 (MET)
Subject: miscellaneous thanks
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear all,
thanks to all of the friends who kindly sent me the mails I missed
during the week-long failure of our computer system. Would you believe
that it was not just our server: the whole university had no connection
to the world for 10 days, but system managers were not called in from
celebrating the religious and secular festivals to fix it, certainly not.
How many Baha'i communities could show that kind of single-minded
devotion to observing the holy days? I hang my head in shame.
I am just about dialogued out after a couple of hundred messages.
Chris, I believe in what you're doing, even tho' I don't believe its going
to work. Some things you have to do anyway.
Terry, a thousand thanks, especially for pointing out the significance of
the word 'trustee'.
Ahang: what do you mean 'lack of interest'???? Picture contorted hands
emerging from you screen to seize you by the throat. STOP??? You
CAN'T stop now!!! non nee la never no and niet. Slow down if you
have to, but don't think no-one's listening.
Peter, thanks of the summary of Desinformation als Methode. I can
back what you say: this is a very significant contribution. I disagree
with Golmer's coverage of theocracy as an eschatological hope (I think
it is explicitly renounced at an stage - even in heaven) but that's a
quibble. This is a very strong book. Polemic at its very best, tho' not
for the weak-stomached. These guys (and galls) call a shovel a shovel
in ten languages, and then name the stuff on the shovel. (well, I
exaggerate a little :-))
Modest proposal: yes, seeing justice done would be a first step forward
for the institutions concerned, but I'm not expecting it soon. The
individuals who suffered are in my mind at least already vindicated,
and I wish I could help them in some way to really know it. (I have
preserved a fairly complete set of the Modest Proposal correspondence
around for years - not to share or even to read, but just in case there
should ever be an attempt to deny it ever happened. One cannot face
the future while standing on lies.) The real healing will come with the
establishment of a new community, and I think that is already
happening - and the elected institutions are not terribly relevant to it.
So lets not hang around waiting for someone else to give us
vindication: take it from me, be free
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 00:48:50 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Mashriq quote
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Terry,
the quote you thought was in Star of the West is (also) in Tablets of
`Abdu'l-Baha Abbas pp 633-634:
The Mashrak-el-Azcar is the most important matter
and the greatest divine institute. Consider how the
first institute of His Holiness Moses, after His exodus
from Egypt, was the "Tent of Martyrdom" which He
raised and which was the traveling Temple. It was a
tent which they pitched in the desert, wherever they
abode, and worshipped in it. Likewise, after His Holiness
Christ - may the spirit of the world be a sacrifice
to Him! - the first institute by the disciples was a Temple.
They planned a church in every country. Consider
the Gospel (read it) and the importance of the
Mashrak-el-Azcar will become evident.
In fine, I hope that all the beloved of God, collectively,
in the continent of America, men and women,
will strive night and day until the Mashrak-el-Azcar
be erected in the utmost solidity and beauty.
Interesting phrase, the 'Tent of Martyrdom'. I wonder whether Toby's
painting of the same name melds the House of Worship and the
idea of martyrdom (dying to self?).
I have this catalogue of empty churches for sale (really, there's a
real-estate agent here who specializes in churches). Now I don't want to
collapse the House of Worship to the building, but I can't help feeling
that the building is also significant, and that these buildings are
intended for something finer than up-market architect's offices. And who
are the inheritors of those people who cared enough to build, if not us?
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 18:58:17 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Christopher Buck
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu, Christopher Buck
Subject: Re: The Maid of Heaven is Manichaean
Had I known Talisman was interfering with your dissertation, I would have
dumped you months ago. Best of luck with your work.
john walbridge
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:06:05 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: bahai admin,
Dear Michael ,
I am not disturbed that you decided against sending out a "diatribe "
in response to my remarks . Nor would i have been surprised had you done so
. I understand that the abstract rationalism in which you frame your
argument is a different "language game" than the emotive style in which I
write . I also know this can be difficult to deal with . It is an "intrusion
" in a rationalistic or analytical sense.
In my years in this community I have been the recipient of a number of
diatribes because I have a tendency to want the abstractions to relate to the
lives of concrete or embodied human beings . I then try and ponder the
consequences of those abstractions , structures etc. Pointing them out is at
times disturbing .
One final comment that may get at the difference I "perceive" which may
or may not be accurate .. First I do not believe the Admin order can be
understood in a "meaningful" way without reference to the additional
institutions of the faith -specifically the Mashgriq . I dont think becoming
a Bahai is about signing a card which says I believe and I obey . Too often
this issue is framed in terms of Aristotelian opposites obey administration
or disobey administration . The implicit background assumption hidden in al
this is that Bahai commuity is logically equivalent to administration and as
a result obediance/ disobediance become the only possibile parmeters around
which dialogue can occur . I reject that formulation as everyone knows who
has been on talisman for some time .
That being a Bahai or that a Bahai community is more than administration and
that administration is not even the central point of the Faith of Bahau lah
is all I am about . It is for me about God and people . everything else rises
or falls on how well it serves to develope the realationship between God and
the human soul . This is how I understand Baha u llah and it is why I have
metaphorically referred to His Faith as an Irfan Republic.
I really do look forward to your continued contributions to Talisman
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 16:23:59 PST
Subject: RE: talisman tranzilizers
To: talisman@indiana.edu, LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu,
748-9178@mcimail.com, Jim Blake <0006596916@mcimail.com>
On Fri, 5 Jan 96 12:19:37 EWT LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
wrote:
(Linda, I didn't understand the point about Bangladesh hospital)
I want to respond to Linda's point about airing pain.
"Airing pain." This is a confusing issue for me.
I imagine that, according to some Bahai Standards, I am obliged to
listen to my friends' pain.
If I love someone and hurt them, I am supposed to listen and
apologize.
But then I don't claim infallibility.
When you claim infallibility (and some parents and friends do this)
and you hurt someone, you never even think to apologize because you
never do anything wrong. And the person who feels hurt, well, he'll
just have to understand that the pain comes from his own spiritual
immaturity. The only thing you, the infallible one, can say to the
pained one is, "I'm sorry this hurts you, but you still have have to
acknowledge that I'm right and you can't attack me."
This is what we do have to say sometimes to our children: "This may
hurt your feelings, but I'm still right and you're still wrong and
you'll just have to get used to it. "
Of course, we all really love being on the receiving end of this
message, right?
So what do we do at this point? It seems that the rules are as
follows: If the UHJ says someone was wrong, or unloving, or
disrespectful, then that's the final word, isn't it.
I mean, being infallible means never having to say you are sorry.
Right?
Mind you, fellow Talisman readers, there is nothing I hate ( and I
mean hate, a feeling I hate to feel) more than the combination of
feeling terribly wronged and still in the wrong.
But this has really happened to me. Amazing, huh?
This is the bounty that comes from praying for spiritual experiences.
Thank you, Jesus.
Does anyone think this nuance has a place in this current thread?
I was at a study group for Yom Kippur and the Rabbi was explaining
why we ask forgiveness for all those sins. A woman in the groups
says, with total innocence and sincerity, "I never understand that
section of the service because I never do anything wrong." And this
was a woman in her mid fifties!! Suddenly, all the rest of us in our
study group closer to gether, bonded by our fury with her and our
frustration at not being able to say anything.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/05/96
Time: 16:24:00
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:56:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: DEREK COCKSHUT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Resurrection and Renewal .
Derek:
You are, of course, welcome to your low opinion of Abbas's book, though
I'm not sure why you think you are in a position to judge his use of his
sources. You are also welcome to make the basis for judging whether the
book is good or bad the degree of Docetism employed in depicting holy
figures.
But I don't think you are in a position to decide whether Abbas Amanat is
a Baha'i or not. First of all, there is such a thing as an "ethnic"
Baha'i, just as there are ethnic Jews. My litmus test is "would Khamenei
bother to have this person killed?" In Abbas's case the answer is
clearly "yes." Can you say the same? Second of all, the only way to
withdraw from the Baha'i Faith is for the individual believer to write a
letter to the NSA renouncing belief in Baha'u'llah. Abbas Amanat has not
only not done so, but has feelings about the Faith that prevent him from
doing so, despite what he described to me as his "liminality." The House
was misinformed. And the House itself has pointed out that there are no
sanctions for neglecting to comply with Review.
Finally, I wish you would withdraw your remark that implied that Abbas's
motive in writing that book was to further his academic career. I can't
think of a topic in Middle Eastern studies less calculated to further a
career than an obscure millenarian movement in Qajar Iran that even most
American Mid-East specialists know little about! There were grumblings
at Yale that the subject was obscure. Abbas only got tenure by going on
to write a biography of Nasiru'd-Din Shah (whom academics *still*
consider more important than the Bab!). Moreover, the remark implies
that when any Baha'i academic writes on the faith, his or her motives are
impure. Vahid Rafati and Rob Stockman and Christopher Buck and many
others could be impeached in this way as easily as Abbas. Is that really
a fair way of thinking. Isn't it one more little anti-intellectual
prejudice?
I know you will take all this with your customary good-heartedness and
humor, continuing in our emulation of Sherman Chat-i Kabir :-)
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: The Maid of Heaven is Manichaean
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 16:34:54 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Dear Friends: 5 January 1996
The Maid of Heaven is Manichaean. That tidbit is from my
dissertation research, which is really what I must attend to now.
My future, what there is of it, demands all the concentration
I have the chaste control to muster. For this reason, I must unsubscribe
for several months until I get my Ph.D.
I apologize for having lost my temper with Jim. Yes, Robert and
others are right. Not very scholarly. Not very becoming.
I am overwhelmed by Ahang's courage in voicing his support for a
letter to be drafted to the House regarding the Dialogue affair. I will be
consulting with several individuals on this. It takes moral courage to
stand up for justice, in the ever-present danger of being crushed for it.
I very much appreciated John Walbridge's observation:
^^^^^^^^^^
*I think one of the reasons the question of the obligation of
Baha'i institutions to abide by international standards of human rights
comes up is obviously that the Baha'i administrative system is set up as a
proto-government. That makes it seem natural to held it to the same kind of
standards that governments are expected to obey.
__________
BUCK:
It's astonishing how few Baha'is are able or willing to grasp
this. The next major breakthrough in Baha'i administrative development,
I predict, will be to open up the Baha'i community as a *model for study*
at the administrative level. The Baha'i Faith will need to internalize the
whole notion of human rights, and conduct its administration accordingly for
all to see and admire. No double-standards any more. There will have to be
a free press, written By-Laws encoding clear procedures based on human
rights, and mechanisms for seeking redress in the event of miscarriages of
justice. There will have to be a Baha'i Tribunal. The appeal system
doesn't work.
___________
JOHN asks:
Chris Buck has commented that Sahba has designed an [in]expensive
mashriqu'l-adhkar. Might it be possible to get details and pictures?
___________
BUCK
Not until there is a policy permitting the construction of a local
Baha'i House of Worship. And I do NOT mean a Baha'i Centre. These are two
different institutions. The Baha'i Faith will not be accepted as a
mainstream religion until we have churches. Trust me. I study religions
day and night.
(The architect in question is Behrouz Abadi in North Vancouver.)
__________
Friends, goodbye for now. I wish to thank our illustrious
listowner, John Walbridge, for giving me the opportunity to participate in
and benefit from this virtual Baha'i community. I will rejoin in several
months after I get my Ph.D. In the meantime, I wish to go on record as
saying that, to me, Juan Cole has the most brilliant and insightful mind
in the Baha'i world, and that we need to take every opportunity to hear
what he has to say before he gets alienated. If someone could bounce me his
posts, I'd be much obliged.
Now I'll try to send a Majordomo command to unsubscribe talisman. If
that doesn't work, then John, please unsubscribe me manually.
With loving Baha'i regards to you all,
-- Christopher Buck, M.Phil.
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
Subject: unsubscribe
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 16:43:12 EST
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca (Christopher Buck)
unsubscribe talisman cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca
**********************************************************************
* * * * * *
* * * Christopher Buck Invenire ducere est.
* * * Carleton University * * *
* * * Internet: CBuck@CCS.Carleton.CA * * *
* * * P O Box 77077 * Ottawa, Ontario * K1S 5N2 Canada * * *
* * * * * *
**********************************************************************
=END=
From: "Not exactly bed time stories"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:26:08 PST8PDT
Subject: Jonestown and conspiracy theories / was Re: Mixed Messages
> Date sent: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:00:32 +1300 (NZDT)
> To: "K. Paul Johnson" , talisman@indiana.
edu
> From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
> Subject: Re: Mixed Messages
> Paul,
>
> >Alas, the Temple Solaire members were a quite highly educated
> >group, for all the good it did them.
>
> Is this the crowd that went to Jonestown? I got the impression that the
> majority of the members were culturally disenfranchised... poor or old or
> black or unemployed ...uneducated.. Do you know the stats re. this?
My details are probably not be 100% accurate, but:
Temple Solaire was in France and/or Switzerland, Jonestown was a
colony of the Jim Jones church in Guiana (sp?) on the caribbean
coast of South America.
According to media accounts (including interviews with relatives
of victims and survivors), Jones's church attracted (sought out)
people from the groups Robert mentions. Jones started somewhere
else, but built up most of the following that eventually went to
Guiana in the SF Bay Area (N.california). A california politician
(or politicians) and some staff that went to Guiana to investigate
his activities were killed just before the mass suicide of 100s of
his followers.
***Here's the juicy part***
According to a popular conspiracy theory, the CIA was using Jones
to experimentally test mind control drugs on a large number (100s)
of people, possibly in anticipation of the need to deal with civil
disturbances.
In case anyone automatically dismisses such a possibility, let me
mention a story I heard my father (not Baha'i, vet of WWII, Korea,
Vietnam; fighter pilot, then later a technocrat/diplomatic attache
to missions in europe, middle east, asia, latin america) tell some
old military buddies (probably only let me listen because he had
too much to drink). At the height of the Watergate instability, a
memo was circulated amongst the upper officer corps in the Pentagon
indicating that contingency plans were going to possibly be activated
for a military takeover of the US in case the anti-war liberals
(Eugene McCarthy, etc.) were succesful in getting majority control
of the government in the wake of an impeachment. The purpose of the
memo: they wanted to know which brass would support the coup if it
became necessary. Apparently it took quite a bit of pressure to get
Tricky Dick to resign. Another 2nd hand "war story": there was a huge
top secret operation on Okinawa to begin a withdrawal from Vietnam
per JFK's orders a week before his asassination. After the
asassination, the operation was discontinued and the war went into
high gear. We were living on a base in Japan at the time the
asassination happened. I was in the car of the mother of one of my
little military brat buddies, and since she had the base radio station
on, we heard the announcement that JFK had been killed. She was so
freaked out that she pulled over to the side of the road at the end
of the main runway and sobbed. I watched planes take off right over
our heads until the MPs came by a few minutes later and got her to
drive on.
Bill Moyers treated some similar issues (shadow government and its
connection to the military and national security elites) quite well
in his documentaries on public TV a few years ago. He was looking
into covert activites during both the Vietnam and Nicuragua wars,
specifically how shadow operatives smuggled drugs into the US
(remember Bush/Noriega?) to fund gun running and otherwise support
illegal covert operations against the various supposedly communist
"enemies".
Further insight into the sometime perversity of US govt foreign
policy may be gained by looking into the joint US/China support of
Pol Pot during his conflict with Vietnam.
It was interesting for me to learn that there aren't too many Persian
Baha'is that are aware that the CIA instigated Mossadeq's ouster.
>
> Robert.
>
A possible moral to such stories is that regardless of
constitutions, civil rights, etc., perversely rich and/or
powerful elites will get away with what they want at least part
of the time.
Another random thought has to do with infiltration of covert
operatives into the community bent on unhinging things at the
behest of those opposed to the faith. I have been assured by
several friends that no one would need to go to the trouble
since we do a pretty good job by ourselves! :)
Fins despres (until later),
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:22:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Sai'd Khadivian (fwd)
Please reply directly to Vafa. Juan
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 04 Jan 1996 22:04:27 GMT
From: Vafa Akhavan
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Subject: Sai'd Khadivian
Dear Juan,
I just read the story of the assistant to the priest who became a Baha'i
recently. The story was posted in Baha'i Connect, Canada, and was written by
Sai'd Khadivian, the coordinator for the Entry by Troops Coordinating Office
/ Greater Houston.
Sai'd is an old friend with whom I lost touch with. Could you be kind enough
to help me find his contact information.
Regards,
Vafa Akhavan.
=END=
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 18:38:41 -0700
To: burlb@bmi.net
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: prayer (natural & potential impulse), Dusty Sprignfield etc.
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Burl,
Gordon, (not bereft, but rather weary of oldies stations, and never a
fan of Dusty Springfield not to mention Buffalo Springfield and whos beloved
wife not only keeps his hair neatly trimmed above the lobe bottom but has
graciously offered to perform a lobotomy on him), was simply pondering the
peculiar paragraph on "potential prayer" in Promulgation of Universal Peace
pg. 246 and was prompted by professor W's post to propose that this passage
on "praying potentially" implied that prayer is a natural impulse.
Notwithstanding the fact that "the essence of Faith is fewness of
words and abundance of deeds" (some of us are in deep s--t), that
Baha'u'llah exalted work performed in the service of humanity to worship,
and that prayer, unaccompanied by love, worship and action may be rather
ineffectual; there are still a few individuals who define prayer merely as
the act of beeseeching favours from the Almighty or the Fates and don't
consider the effort to achieve that which is besought a part of the prayer
but a serperate enterprise altogether.
Etymologically, pray comes from the Latin precari (to ask for,
entreat), which has also given us deprecate and imprecation. It passed into
English through the French "preier". The noun prayer, goes back ultimately
to the Latin adjective precarius (obtained by asking), from which was also
derived, of course, "precarious" and while those who believe that Divine
assistance is free for the asking may find themselves in a precarious
position there are still many who do. So are their prayers really prayers?
Does God hear them?
Abdu'l Baha alledgedly said "Before we were born into this world did
we not pray potentially? What the heck does this mean? Is it just a poor
translation?
Abdu'l Baha also says "But we ask for things which the divine wisdom
does not desire for us, and there is no answer to our prayer. His wisdom
does not sanction what we wish." Nevertheless he seems to imply that the
act of entreating God or a transcendent or supernatural being is "praying"
whatever the motive or outcome. Then is saying "God, I wish I could win a
lottery" praying? If so, I would certainly agree that prayer, like wishful
thinking, is a natural impulse.
John posted "I have written "The Baha'i writings say that the
impulse to pray is natural," and the editor has asked my source. Does
anybody have any idea what I might have been citing?"
I thought the that "the impulse to pray is natural" and "we pray
potentially" may mean the same thing. I don't know.
Then John Brombere posted the following, from the compilation of
"meditation and the devotional attitude"
1755. "If one friend feels love for another, he will wish to say so. Though
he knows that the friend is aware that he loves him, he will still wish to
say so.... God knows the wishes of all hearts. BUT THE IMPULSE TO PRAY IS A
NATURAL ONE springing from man's love to God."
If the impulse to pray is natural, and if we pray potentially before
we even come into this world, then I gather that the love of God is natural
and that we "potentially" love God before we are even conscious of it. Is
that reasonable?
It goes on to say.
"Prayer need not be in words, but rather in thought and attitude (he
doesn't mention "action" here). But if this love and this desire are
lacking, it is useless to try to force them. Words without love mean nothing.
So I gather that both the impulse to pray and "this love and desire"
are natural, potential, initiated by God, but it is entirely up to us to
decide whether we want to manifest it or not.
Baha'u'llah says "Veiled in my immemorial Being and in the ancient
eternity of my essence I knew my love for thee; there fore I created thee .
. . Love me that I may love thee, If thou lovest me not my love can in no
wise reach thee."
I infer from this that both the love for, and the love of God, are
natural, potential or innate and therefore the impulse to manifest that
love, through prayer, worship, action etc. is a natural impulse.
We can screw up the relationship, just as a child can screw up its
relationship with its mother. That doesn't negate the fact that the mutual
bond of love between the mother and the child was natural and potential and
initiated at the moment of conception.
I'm rather glad that Dr. Walbridge asked this question.
LBG's Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:44:14 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "Ahang Rabbani" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: UHJ and Human Rights
Talismans,
Ahang Rabbani wrote:
>As for the Dialogue affair, while I clearly don't know all the
>details, but from what I do know, in my view, a miscarriage of
>justice did take place.
Isn't this oxymoronic?
I suggest that Ahang should address his accusation of injustice to the
appropriate institution... As it is the statement seems gratuitious
backstab...
Robert.
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:57:33 -0500
Message-Id: <960105205732_33066569@mail02.mail.aol.com>
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Re: Mashriqul Adhkar
Oh, no you don't!
As an editor, I have to insist that Mashriqu'l-Adhkhar is properly
translated into English as "House of Worship." Yes, I know what the literal
translation is. But, as every good editor knows, that is irrelevant.
Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: s0a7254@tam2000.tamu.edu (Saman Ahmadi)
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu (talisman)
Date: 96-01-05 16:40:58 EST
Dear Burl,
Your wish is granted: The Dawning Place (of the Mention of God).
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 96 13:46 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights
Someone commented a while back that the community will not grow until we
have worked through the unresolved issues surrounding the production and
closure of Dialogue magazine. I agree with this.
It made me realise that the principles involved here are exactly the same as
the ones invoked by the indigenous peoples of the world: that a nation
cannot grow unless it comes to terms with the injustices done to its
indigenous people, and it faces the challenge of being inclusive of those
people's different ways of being and seeing things.
I therefore agree with Ahang's suggestion that it would be beneficial if
these issues are reinvestigated and put to right.
Alison and Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alison and Steve Marshall
Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:26:41 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "K. Paul Johnson" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Mixed Messages
Dear Paul,
Re:
Its founder,
>Luc Jouret, was a physician, and all the leaders were
>well-educated.
And the followers? Well educated?
Robert.
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:24:35 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights
My goodness! What an ugly message from a fellow Talismanian--who
simultaneously complains about all the complaining that he has been hearing
and then demands that we air more complaints in all their juicy details.
Huh?
He attributes the basest motives to his fellow believers and insists that
they do not want to see the Faith or the Baha'i community develop and change
in positive ways. Huh?
He says that we do not have the courage to do what he really wants us to
do, which is . . . ah, what was that again? Well, he knows.
Well, what to say? Maybe nothing.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 18:25:56 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: metaphors & dangerous insiduous lukwarm people.
I very much appreciated Juan Coles comments on Peter Kahn's Talk. I
printed it out and stapled it to my copy of the later letter. He brings up
two points which I think deserve closer examination.
1. The role of metaphor in determining our attitudes toward the Faith and
Community, and
2. The danger of using references out of context which might feed the flames
of anti-intellectualism.
Juan suggests that the magnet metaphor is misleading.
"The problem with the contemporary conception of a magnet as a
metaphor for unity is that it rules out differentiation. We all have to
be iron atoms. We all have to face the same direction. Moreover,
magnets are fragile. You drop one on the floor and it reverts to just
being a piece of iron". He adds that "This nitpicking about metaphors is
actually important." I wholeheartely agree and believe it is a
subject which could lead to a very fruitful and enlightening dialogue. I
love nitpicking about metaphors. Our worldview, political and religious
institutions, social structures, language, and values are shaped by
metaphor - and often metaphors which are "anachronistic" - The concentric
spheres of Aristotle, the great chain of being, the clockwork universe,
cultural relativism, deconstructionism are all are all based on metaphors
derived from the scientifc and in vogue thinking of the day. The metaphors
used in the Baha'i Writings are beautiful, and rich with meaning.
The first several lessons of a cross-cultural course my wife and I
developed deal with the role of metaphor in establishing cultural coherence.
Some of the discussions that take place in those classes, among students who
have never before questioned the source of the values they had grown up with
are quite exciting. I would really enjoy reading comments by other members
of Talisman on the subject.
"Metaphors We Live By" by Lakoff and Johnson is a good introductory
book on the subject.
As for those those unidentified "dangerous, insidious, lukewarm
people inside the Faith who have no real attachment to the Covenant and
uphold the intellectual aspect of the teachings while undermining the
spiritual foundation upon which the whole Cause of God rests", I would
suggest that such folks are also "lukewarm intellectuals" - Certainly not
Baha'i Scholars. Just as there are those people who claim to uphold the
spiritual aspect of the Faith and demonstrate their own lack of spiritual
understanding, others claim to uphold the intellectual aspect while
demonstrating their lack of intellect. Sometimes we cling most tenaciously
to that which we have the least of. It is unfortunate that Mr. Kahn used
this phrase on this occasion though.
I agree that there is a strong undercurrent of anti-intellectualism,
not only in the Baha'i Community but in society generally (as well as a
modicum of anti-mainstreamism among scholars), and that the problem needs to
be addressed in a rational and spiritual manner. We are all, to some degree,
both spiritual and intellectual creatures are we not.
Thanks
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 18:22:07 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Resurrection and Renewal .
To: jrcole@umich.edu
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:56:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
X-Sender: jrcole@frogger.rs.itd.umich.edu
To: DEREK COCKSHUT
cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Resurrection and Renewal .
In-Reply-To: <199601052106.NAA11031@ix8.ix.netcom.com>
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My dear Juan
Derek:
You are, of course, welcome to your low opinion of Abbas's book, though
I'm not sure why you think you are in a position to judge his use of
his
sources. You are also welcome to make the basis for judging whether
the
book is good or bad the degree of Docetism employed in depicting holy
figures.
Actually I do not have a bad opinion of the book . I just do not
believe it is the best version of Babi and Baha'i history especially
when our own distribution service promoted it . In terms of sources I
do believe he is highly biased towards Nuqtat al-Kaf . That for me is
an achilles heel he seems to have regarded that document as more
important because of the confused nature of the Babi's depicted in it .
I am not in a position to judge the Faith of anyone nor would I .
However Abbas has made it clear on more than one occasion he is not a
believer . I would suggest the strange attempt by many to include him
in a religion he does not regard himself part of devalues from a Baha'i
point of view the very contribution he has made . I do not accept we
have denegrated to the status of ethnic Baha'is .
But I don't think you are in a position to decide whether Abbas Amanat
is
a Baha'i or not. First of all, there is such a thing as an "ethnic"
Baha'i, just as there are ethnic Jews. My litmus test is "would
Khamenei
bother to have this person killed?" In Abbas's case the answer is
clearly "yes." Can you say the same? Second of all, the only way to
withdraw from the Baha'i Faith is for the individual believer to write
a
letter to the NSA renouncing belief in Baha'u'llah. Abbas Amanat has
not
only not done so, but has feelings about the Faith that prevent him
from
doing so, despite what he described to me as his "liminality." The
House
was misinformed. And the House itself has pointed out that there are
no
sanctions for neglecting to comply with Review.
I do not withdraw a remark that is a statement of fact , by publishing
his doctorate added to his academic career . That was not a demeaning
point but an acceptance of a legitimate normal academic activity . I am
surprised you would see in any other light as you know my commitment to
publishing .
Finally, I wish you would withdraw your remark that implied that
Abbas's
motive in writing that book was to further his academic career. I
can't
think of a topic in Middle Eastern studies less calculated to further a
career than an obscure millenarian movement in Qajar Iran that even
most
American Mid-East specialists know little about! There were grumblings
at Yale that the subject was obscure. Abbas only got tenure by going
on
to write a biography of Nasiru'd-Din Shah (whom academics *still*
consider more important than the Bab!). Moreover, the remark implies
that when any Baha'i academic writes on the faith, his or her motives
are
impure. Vahid Rafati and Rob Stockman and Christopher Buck and many
others could be impeached in this way as easily as Abbas. Is that
really
a fair way of thinking. Isn't it one more little anti-intellectual
prejudice?
I hardly have an anti-intellectual prejudice I believe you should
withdraw that one .
I know you will take all this with your customary good-heartedness and
humor, continuing in our emulation of Sherman Chat-i Kabir :-)
I would never take offence at you my dear friend . True relationships
are based on the acceptance of others viewpoints without agreeing to
them .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 21:44:11 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Kwanzaa
I really am sorry to have posted so much this evening. I am catching up.
But, I forgot to tell everyone that our Baha'i celebration of Kwanzaa on
January 1, at my house was a smash success. We have about 75 people here,
and about 25 or 30 of them were not Baha'is. Most of the participants and
seekers were not black. That is certainly the largest group of non-Baha'is
that we have had at any function in a long time.
We had a brief program--lighting Kwanzaa candles, and eating bread from a
common loaf (rather than drinking from the common cup, which is standard
Kwanzaa fare), a lecture on African-American religion and some singing. But,
we tried out reciting some of the Writings on Unity as responsive readings,
and it was great! It works, and it works to unify the group tremendously.
So, one person would lead: O Well Beloved Ones! The tabernacle of
unity has been raised,
And the group would respond in unison: Regard ye not one another as
strangers, ye are the fruit of one tree, and the leaves of one tree.
Wow!
Anyway, we had some Baha'i jazz musicians provide entertainment. I
made egg nog, and we served sweet potatoes pie with whipped cream. It was
all yummy!
So, I count it as a success. Wish we could take it on the road.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:35:02 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Dialogue, etc.
For anyone who would be interested, I was one of those involved in the
dialogue affair, since I was on the editorial board of the journal. I was
also one of the founding members of the Los Angeles Study Class.
Come to think of it, I am also one of the founders of Kalimat Press and
also helped form Talisman, lo these many months ago. Eeek! I guess that
must mean that I am a good candidate to be somebodies chief demon in their
book of demonology.
Tony
P.S. No, unless forced to do so by rumor and misinformation, I am not
(repeat NOT) going to go through all the juicy details of our troubles with
Baha'i Administration, which I think are best forgotten--if only we could
forget them.
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 96 03:33:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: wordplay (?)
Ralph,
>...please distinguish between voracity and veracity!
I also rather enjoyed the recent reference to the "48 contagious states."
Oops-- hope this isn't construed as an ad homonym attack...
(sorry, I couldn't resist)
Leigh
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 22:54:41 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Mashriqu'l-adhkar
The trouble with translating "mashriqu'l-adhkar" is that it has a
double-meaning not captured either by literal or loose translation. The
form *maf`il* is called in Arabic a "noun of time or place". The root
sh-r-q from which it is constructed has to do with sunrise. It thus
means both the place and the time of prayers (not of obligatory prayer,
which is another word). So it is the place of worship--"house of
worship"--and the time of worship--"morning prayers."
And, accourding to the Aqdas, morning prayers are the principal Baha'i
worship service, not the Feast--which was originally about food and only
later pressed into service for prayers and committee reports.
(Characteristically, the Bab specified the food, Baha'u'llah thought it
was an excellent idea, `Abdu'l-Baha added prayers and music, Shoghi
Effendi added committee reports, and Horace Holley took out the music.
The details, which are interesting, are in Jackson Armstrong-Ingram's
book, *Music, Meditation, and Mashriqu'l-Adhkar*, which should be
required reading for anyone presuming to plan a feast or holy day
celebration. [Is it still in print, Tony?]).
john walbridge
=END=
[end of 1/5/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/6/96
--------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 01:12:52 -0400
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: milkman@ibl.bm (Alec Bourne)
Subject: me.
As asked by severalz..
.bm is for Bermuda..
I'm Alec.. have lived in Bermuda since age 4, born in London england,
grandfather was one of the original 9 in the first LSA here.. 3 generations
later we're still at it!
am 24, have 2 brothers (steve & dave), two mom's (Charmaine & Saida), two
dad's (Harold & Iqbal) and to grandmothers (gran & nana) VERY soon to be
married to Naazneen in August.
tah tah
############################
## # ze von unt only Milkmeister #####
### Ze Milkiator############
####ze Milk-adilk-ading-dong#######
###########################
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 21:45:32 -0700 (MST)
From: "S. Indiogine"
To: Saman Ahmadi
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Mashriqul Adhkar
On Fri, 5 Jan 1996, Saman Ahmadi wrote:
[snip]
>
> Can we get the plans of your brother-in-law? Can you give a description
> of design and an estimated cost?
>
As a junior in Civil Engineering I am most interested in these plans. Are
they sort of public domain? Are the plans available as Autocad files?
> A while ago my father made the following suggestion at our
> District Concention: that all the communties who have saving
> accounts for Baha'i Centers pool their money together in one
> account. Then each community can apply for a loan from that
> Fund. Some sort of board would evaluate loan applications and
> grant them based on some agreed system of priority. This sort
> of arrangement would not require a change in the pattern of
> contributions to the various Funds.
>
This fund could be invested in secure funds such as a short term bond
fund. About 8-9% and tax freee in our case. This is also compounded so
it has great capacity for growth.
> The actual task of building the structure could be
> something wherein Baha'is in the field of construction could
> volunteer their skills and travel around the country to the
> various construction sites - also a great opportunity for
> youth on their Year of Service. Many small churches are built in
> this manner.
I as an engineering student would be interested. Even if not payed it
would be good work experience on my resume.
Bye,
Eric Indiogine (sindiogi@nmsu.edu), Dept. Civil, Agricultural,
and Geological Engineering, New Mexico State University,
Las Cruces, New Mexico, U.S.A.
## True loss is for him whose days have been ##
## spent in utter ignorance of his self ##
-* Baha'u'llah, Words of Wisdom #21 *-
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:46:21 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights
First things first. This is not some grudge match between Chris Buck and
myself. At least that is not how I view it. I, as well as others here have
been stating essentially the same argument repeatedly now for months. Mr.
Buck simply happens to be the latest warrior on that side of the field to
come out swinging.
I could really care less who it is. If the entire NSA were retired
tomorrow and came out promoting this attitude I would still be right here.
And let us get something else straight. READ MY WORDS. I too am all for
reforms, actually a much better and more accurate word is *maturity*. I have
suffered through a mountain of crap also. I really don't want to get into
comparisons of how high these mountains are; who's stinks the worst; how hard
it is to get it out of the carpet.
Please listen. Does anyone here seriously believe, after twenty years of
beating our damn heads against this particular wall that somehow we will
succeed?? I can't be brighter than you folks but after eight years I figured
that there has got to be another way of winning this damn game.
You see I have not given up. Nor have I given in. I have fought too hard
and too long to let the immaturity and blindness, not to mention the
goddamned "nefarious elements" (CF p. 154) in this Faith make a shambles of
the Guardian's vision.
Sure, the Cause will go on. It will succeed without America fulfilling its
destiny . . . but how many millions of lives lay shattered around us, right
now, because we have so far failed? How many Black youth now lie buried in
some forgotten grave, victims of a driveby that we could have saved - a soul
that was denied the greatest gift - a life, a spiritual destiny self-chosen,
an opportunity to make one's own spiritual eternity? How many of my brothers
and sisters are sitting on the reservations tonight with spirits as bleak and
lifeless and void of beauty and hope as the land that surrounds them because
we have yet to plant a beakon of Truth in this land?
No, no no . . . Do not think I don't know pain. And don't think me some
fool for the status quo. I hate the state of things as they stand. I detest
the disgusting politics I have witnessed, first-hand, in the higher strata of
the Administrative Order. I am sick of the shallow near-sightedness
everywhere. My mind reels at the garbage and pschobabble that our communites
pick up at the trashbins that pass for most bookstores and follow it
hook-line-sinker never stopping to think about any of it - swallowing it
whole, devouring this mindless dribble and yet finding that they can only
handle the Daily Readings of the Writings . . .
I have railed against you dear friends because I too am tired. I want
desperately to change the course we have so drunkenly followed, led by our
noses by folk who at best are myopic. I have stood up in front of you because
all of your screaming and anger and elaborate and beautifully laid plans will
not work. You are playing into their hands. We are going to lose . . .
Unless we change our strategy and tactics. I have been accused by one of
you just a short time ago of being vague. That I do not offer plans, ideas,
etc. I predicted early this morning to a friend that the next posts to me
would include this accusation. Sure enough it came. As a matter of fact I
have (and if need be I can have a number of folks vouch for me) with
astonishing precision predicted who would say what, and when, and how their
patterns would change if certain posts were altered for months. . . I am not
offering this to make myself out as some version of Spock here . . . I'm only
saying this to show that what is being done here is so predictable . . . and
_so_ manipulatable that you leave yourselves wide open to the very forces
that you fear (and rightly so.)
I do not want to see this happen. I want us to win. I want to wipe this
table clean. It is not as if I (we) do not have plans and strategies. We have
plenty. And there are more of us than you would think. Who the *we* is -
that is another story.
But there is little point in hauling out plans and ideas on Talisman as it
is right now. The atmosphere is not conducive to discoursing on them. And
besides it would only be a start . . . What we need is a unity of thought and
a unity of vision. We have neither. We have to realize that this
romantic/tragic notion of *storming the Bastille* will not work. Sure, people
are upset, angry, confused, disheartened . . . but they will not follow you
to the gates . . . they may be many things but they are not stupid. They know
that any type of *popular revolt* would be disasterous for the Cause, esp.
here but all over the planet.
And such an action would play right into the hands of those who wish to
keep the status quo. Come on, you folks are professors and whatnot; you can't
be so naive as to think that in bringing down the house you'd escape the
beams yourselves did you? You try this and you will be outcast, and then
where the hell will we be?!
I'll tell you. We will be where we were in the late 70's and the late 80's
and now the late 90's . . . starting all over again - those of us at least
smart enough not to follow you people on a suicide run. And if any of us
actually stay here in this country we will be looking at another decade or
more before the window of opportunity opens again. Personally I can't handle
that . . . the people I work with know I will just pack it up and move to the
Caribbean. Seriously. So many of them have already left. A lot stayed for
years . . . but finally they just gave up. Hundreds have left now.
If we want to win we have to rethink our strategy. Now, can you let go of
the pain and anger long enough to put your brilliant minds together and hatch
something wonderful? Do you have the courage to face a long but infinitely
more rewarding struggle? Or are you going to grow old and bitter?
jim harrison
Alethinos
=END=
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 21:08:12 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: RE: talisman tranzilizers
Dear Philip,
Loving greetings to you and all.
On 01/05/96 you wrote:
>So what do we do at this point? It seems that the rules are as
>follows: If the UHJ says someone was wrong, or unloving, or
>disrespectful, then that's the final word, isn't it.
>
>I mean, being infallible means never having to say you are sorry.
>Right?
Please consider:
"And inasmuch as this House of Justice hath power to enact laws that are not
expressly recorded in the Book and bear upon daily transactions, so also it
hath power to repeal the same. . . . The House of Justice is both the
initiator and the abrogator of its own laws." ( 'Abdu'l-Baha, Will and
Testament, pg. 19 & World Order of Baha'u'llah, pg. 23)
Eventhough I moved a year ago, most of my books are still packed (where does
the time go?) so I can't put my hands on the UHJ Constitution. The above
sentament is surely enshrined there, too.
Not to mention, that if the Catholic Church can change its mind on Galileo,
albeit a couple of weeks late, isn't there hope for all bureaucracies?
>This is the bounty that comes from praying for spiritual experiences.
>Thank you, Jesus.
Yea, that is true. I don't do that any longer --- I can shoot myself in the
foot quite adequately without any help thank you ; )
>Philip
>
>Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
>Einstein
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 01:58:03 -0400
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: milkman@ibl.bm (Alec Bourne)
Subject: just wondrin
Greetings,
Has anybody ever thought of taking this internet baha'i community and
modelling a Baha'i admin along with it.. ie.. elect an LSA, or several as
need be, by whatever region u want.. then elect an NSA/delegates.. the
whole. lot.. maybe even simulate a UHJ??
how bout that?? just for the possible indications we could get from such a
model, and perhaps developing new methods of communication, and procedures
to help with voting/meetings/holding of firesides/feasts etc..
Perhaps we could fine tune voting procedures using da puterz such that
elections are vastly sped along??
- one incredibly bull-headed idealist
############################
## # ze von unt only Milkmeister #####
### Ze Milkiator############
####ze Milk-adilk-ading-dong#######
###########################
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: dialogue letter
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 01:00:48 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Sen McGlinn wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
S>Do I take that as implying that political theological and scholarly
S>opinions radiating from Haifa, or implicit in the statements of the
S>House itself, SHOULD lead us to alter our viewpoints?
Hi, Sen -
Thanks for your note.
Yes, I think that the statements of the Universal House of Justice
should lead us to alter our viewpoints. And if the ideas expressed by an
agency of the Universal House of Justice (such as the Secretariat, the
Research Department, or the International Teaching Centre) conflict with
one's own perspectives, one should also, IMV, reconsider. Now,
certainly, I am free to arrive at my own conclusions, based on whatever
information I think I might have, and to make my feelings known to the
House. However, at that point, I should try to let go of it and trust in
the wisdom of the Supreme Body.
S>In such matters the House can quite simply be wrong - and time may
S>show it to have been wrong. I feel the same way about the rights
S>and freedoms letter - rather than doing a quick one-two to get in
S>step, I considered it carefully and concluded that it did not
S>express the best in Baha'i teachings on this issue or show a deep
S>understanding of the enlightenment principles underlying (but not
S>perfectly manifest in) western social and political structures.
Personally, I would be hesitant to elevate my own perspectives over
those of the House of Justice. I am a fallible being. What I think today
about a subject may, due to my spiritual development, change tomorrow.
However, the veracity of the statements of the House are not dependant
on its members. As I have said previously, I believe that the House is,
metaphorically, the resurrected body of the Twin Manifestations (as the
church was, according to Paul, the resurrected body of Christ). The
House of Justice exists sui generis, i.e., its conclusions do not
directly depend on its membership.
S>So far as I understand it, this is OK. The sphere of infallibility
S>of the House is limited to legislating on matters not specifically
S>revealed in the Book, and even in legislation I would assume -
S>given Baha'i teachings on freedom and conscience - that it would
S>be perfectly in order to disagree while obeying (and that
S>infallibility is in any case not propositional). The same applies in
S>the wider sphere of the Houses' authority beyond the guarantee of
S>infallibility, so it must certainly apply in an area which is not
S>even within the sphere of the Houses' authority.
I would, personally, be uncomfortable determining the sphere of
infallibility of the Universal House of Justice. Not surprisingly, even
those talismanians who have posted on this theme have not agreed among
themselves! From my POV, the House is the best determinant of its own
infallibility. I would not consider it my place to judge where and when
it is infallible. I would also not want to think of myself as obeying
while inwardly (or outwardly) reserving my right to differ with the
House.
Infallibility means truth without error, and, in that sense, it is,
ultimately, a spiritual condition deriving from the Spirit of Truth -
Baha'u'llah. Because of the inherent ambiguities and contradictions
arising from life in the material world, truth must be relativized to
both the world of human reason (including language and time) and to the
kingdom of names and attributes (including both material and situational
factors). As such, the truths which are spoken by the Supreme Body are
contexted in reason and in materiality.
In this Dispensation, IMHO, individual infallibility is restricted
to the Prophet and the Master. The infallibility of the Guardian and the
Universal House of Justice is institutional. IOW, *the members* of those
institutions (the Guardian and the men of Baha) are not guaranteed
infallibility. So, `Abdu'l-Baha could speak even where Baha'u'llah might
have been outwardly silent. OTOH, the Guardian's interpretations were
based on actual statements by Baha'u'llah and the Master. Likewise,
while I would want to give extraordinary consideration to the views of
an individual member of the Universal House of Justice, their words,
unless they are directly speaking for the House, are not necessarily
infallible.
S> So if you think that an argument made in one of the
S>House's letters has not been sufficiently heard, I think you have
S>to cite the argument and the case, and try to reason it out. Isn't
S>your statement above essentially an appeal to authority?
The fallacy of appeal to authority, which I emphasize to my Social
Problems students as we make our way through the anthology, applies,
IMV, to humans and not to the divinely guided institutions of the
Guardianship and the Universal House of Justice. I have seen instances
of appeal to authority on this list, as when someone will refer to a
statement made by a member of the institution of the learned as proof of
her or his own position. Although the views of Hands, Counselors, etc.
must be given special consideration, these persons are not, IMO,
"authorities." Likewise, I would no more want to reduce the House to the
men of Baha than I would wish to reduce the Guardianship to the human
individuality of the priceless pearl.
Certainly, there is a distinction between infallibility and
authority. Obviously, all the "rulers" have authority, including the
Universal House of Justice and the assemblies. However, only the Supreme
Body is infallible (purified from error).
Warm greetings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 21:02:26 +0800
To: Alison & Steve Marshall , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights (2)
Dear Talismans, (esp. Steve, Alison, Ahang):
Alison and Steve wrote:
>It made me realise that the principles involved here are exactly the same as
>the ones invoked by the indigenous peoples of the world: that a nation
>cannot grow unless it comes to terms with the injustices done to its
>indigenous people, and it faces the challenge of being inclusive of those
>people's different ways of being and seeing things.
In both the above letter and that of Ahang it is clearly indicated that the
Dialogue people were treated unjustly. Thus, it seems that the writers
have a clearer perception of what went on than the national assembly of the
States and the House itself. Are they and Ahang able to clearly indicate
the ways in which these institutions have been unjust. If they cannot
(indeed: even if they can, perhaps) I question the wisdom of their making
such inflamatory statements. What possible useful purpose could be served
by this?
Further, I suggest that the comparison drawn between this matter and the
manifest historical and current universal mistreatment of indigenous
peoples is grossly insulting to indigenous peoples. Shoghi Effendi said
that racism was one of the three evils of the twentieth century (the other
two being communism and nationalism). If the Guardian were alive I don't
think that he would add the Dialogue fiasco to the list... You argue that
the principle is the same. That is not proven. Obviously the House
doesn't think so. And even if the House reviewed its decision and found
that Dialogue (etc) was OK afterall, the comparison on the basis of
similarity of principle still tends to blow the whole matter wildly out of
proportion...
I must add that as an individual believer, I carry no prejudice based on my
understanding of this matter against the Dialogue people... If they got
into hot water with the institutions, that is their affair... I have
received no message from the House or any national assembly that I should
avoid them. Why should I not treat them as friends? I have no real
reason to believe that Steve Scholl and the others are not the nicest of
people... But I wonder how many friends they would make if this whole
matter was re-opened inappropriately. I just do not think that at the end
of the day there is gpoing to be a ticker-tape parade, a presidential
welcome, and the key the the sacred shrines for anyone at the end of this
street.
This being said, I have no objection to the matter being discussed here.
However -- please -- let us -- and especially bystanders (like me!) -- all
try to be both logical and moderate, and show sincere respect for the
institutions of the Faith...
It seems, though, that if the Dialogue people have a real gripe they
themselves should take it to the House, which is afterall -- as we have
seen here -- just an email message away. And apparently they are all
capable and -- unlike too many indigenous peoples in the world -- literate
adults. If I had a similar gripe, I would question the genuineness of my
own motives if I did not take it to the House, and preferred to allow it to
become a rather sordid and divisive public matter comprised mainly of
half-truth and innuendo. And I would question the steadfastness of my
faith if -- having taken it to the House -- I did not then readily accept
the House's decision on the matter... I certainly would not expect any
self-respecting Baha'i to show me any sympathy if I entered into a round of
loud bleating about the unfairness of the House if the decision didn't meet
my expectations...
Really. Where're we at? Let's be fair.
Robert.
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 00:12:32 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Re Bosch Advanced Academy notes.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I am going to post the notes on Talisman around 35 people have
requested them . It is a large file if you do not want them please
delete without reading . Please remember these are student notes of the
various sessions , not my lecture notes which I never have anyway as I
do not use notes in my classes .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 00:21:34 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Mark's and Rob's Comments
TO MARK:
Thanks, Mark, for the straightforward expression of your opinions. I agree.
>From: "Mark A. Foster"
>Subject: dialogue letter
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 01:00:48 -0600 (CST)
> I would, personally, be uncomfortable determining the sphere of
>infallibility of the Universal House of Justice. Not surprisingly, even
>those talismanians who have posted on this theme have not agreed among
>themselves! From my POV, the House is the best determinant of its own
>infallibility. I would not consider it my place to judge where and when
>it is infallible. I would also not want to think of myself as obeying
>while inwardly (or outwardly) reserving my right to differ with the
>House.
> Personally, I would be hesitant to elevate my own perspectives over
>those of the House of Justice.
> I would, personally, be uncomfortable determining the sphere of
>infallibility of the Universal House of Justice.
> I would also not want to think of myself as obeying
>while inwardly (or outwardly) reserving my right to differ with the
>House.
TO ROB:
Thanks, Rob, for your sense of moderation and wisdom.
>>Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 07:00:05
>>From: "Stockman, Robert"
>>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>>Subject: Re: Resurrection and Renewal .by Abbas Amanat
>But generally I think it is possible for Baha'i scholars to write about Baha'i
>history in a way that does not imply a denial of divine causality, while still
>making a full exploration of the material causes that served as vehicles for
>expressing His plan for humanity.
>
> -- Rob Stockman
Henry W. Miller
hwmiller@ccnet.com
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 21:23:08 +0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 6: "...reason has been corrupted by personal motives..."
Talismans,
We continue...with 'Abdu'l-Baha... He writes of the Persian
Shah's desire for modernisation and advancement, and of the response of his
ill-wishers who won support for their evil activities by playing on the
fears of the ignorant... (In other places He writes that education is the
key to the overcoming of oppression).
Robert.
SDC 6
Today by the grace of God and the spiritual influence of His
universal Manifestation, the fair-minded ruler of Iran has gathered his
people into the shelter +P11 of justice, and the sincerity of the
imperial purpose has shown itself in kingly acts. Hoping that his reign
will rival the glorious past, he has sought to establish equity and
righteousness and to foster education and the processes of civilization
throughout this noble land, and to translate from potentiality into
actuality whatever will insure its progress. Not until now had we seen a
monarch, holding in his capable hands the reins of affairs, and on whose
high resolve the welfare of all his subjects depends, exerting as it would
befit him, like a benevolent father, his efforts toward the training and
cultivation of his people, seeking to insure their well-being and peace of
mind, and exhibiting due concern for their interests; this Servant and
those like Him have therefore remained silent. Now, however, it is clear
to the discerning that the Shah has of his own accord determined to
establish a just government and to secure the progress of all his
subjects. His honorable intention has consequently evoked this present
statement.
It is indeed strange that instead of offering thanks for this bounty,
which truly derives from the grace of Almighty God, by arising as one in
gratitude and enthusiasm and praying that these noble purposes will daily
multiply, some, on the contrary, whose reason has been corrupted by
personal motives and the clarity of whose perception has been clouded by
self-interest and conceit; whose energies are devoted to the service of
their passions, whose sense of pride is perverted to the +P12 love of
leadership, have raised the standard of opposition and waxed loud in their
complaints. Up to now, they blamed the Shah for not, on his own
initiative, working for his people's welfare and seeking to bring about
their peace and well-being. Now that he has inaugurated this great design
they have changed their tune. Some say that these are newfangled methods
and foreign isms, quite unrelated to the present needs and the
time-honored customs of Persia. Others have rallied the helpless masses,
who know nothing of religion or its laws and basic principles and
therefore have no power of discrimination--and tell them that these
modern methods are the practices of heathen peoples, and are contrary to
the venerated canons of true faith, and they add the saying, "He who
imitates a people is one of them." One group insists that such reforms
should go forward with great deliberation, step by step, haste being
inadmissible. Another maintains that only such measures should be adopted
as the Persians themselves devise, that they themselves should reform
their political administration and their educational system and the state
of their culture and that there is no need to borrow improvements from
other nations. Every faction, in short, follows its own particular
illusion.
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 21:48:34 +0800
To: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller), talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Mark's and Rob's Comments (& Gordon's also)
Dear Henry,
Yes: two outstanding letters, I think. Why not toss Gordon's
(Metaphors and dangerous etc) in with them? It is pretty dry, but...isn't
Gordon's a gin? ;-}
Robert.
>TO MARK:
>
>Thanks, Mark, for the straightforward expression of your opinions. I agree.
>
>>From: "Mark A. Foster"
>>Subject: dialogue letter
>>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>>Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 01:00:48 -0600 (CST)
>
>
>> I would, personally, be uncomfortable determining the sphere of
>>infallibility of the Universal House of Justice. Not surprisingly, even
>>those talismanians who have posted on this theme have not agreed among
>>themselves! From my POV, the House is the best determinant of its own
>>infallibility. I would not consider it my place to judge where and when
>>it is infallible. I would also not want to think of myself as obeying
>>while inwardly (or outwardly) reserving my right to differ with the
>>House.
>
>
>> Personally, I would be hesitant to elevate my own perspectives over
>>those of the House of Justice.
>
>
>> I would, personally, be uncomfortable determining the sphere of
>>infallibility of the Universal House of Justice.
>
>
>> I would also not want to think of myself as obeying
>>while inwardly (or outwardly) reserving my right to differ with the
>>House.
>
>
>TO ROB:
>
>Thanks, Rob, for your sense of moderation and wisdom.
>
>>>Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 07:00:05
>>>From: "Stockman, Robert"
>>>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>>>Subject: Re: Resurrection and Renewal .by Abbas Amanat
>
>>But generally I think it is possible for Baha'i scholars to write about Baha'i
>>history in a way that does not imply a denial of divine causality, while still
>>making a full exploration of the material causes that served as vehicles for
>>expressing His plan for humanity.
>>
>> -- Rob Stockman
>
>Henry W. Miller
>hwmiller@ccnet.com
=END=
From: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 20:57:42 +1100 (EST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
Dear Juan and friends,
Sadly I think this will be my last post to talisman for a while. The
reason for this is quite simple and personal - the volume of traffic on
talisman is just overwhelming and the intensity and pace of the debate is
such that I would have to take it up as a full time job just to keep up!
Having another job to cater to and children to look after I can see
problems looming if I do not mend my ways. Anyway you are welcome to
contact me privately if you would like to follow up this discussion.
Well to democracy and freedom of speech.
Democracy
-------------
Juan, I am going to be somewhat cheeky and quote your own words in support
of the case I made earlier about democracy being but one wheel on the
Baha'i cart. (Perhaps this is not even in issue any longer? - I am not
sure)
In particular your analysis of the Tablet to Queen Victoria provides at
least three other wheels for our cart:
"Baha'u'llah repeatedly linked chiliastic concerns with democratic themes,
... He melded four themes together in his epistles to the rulers. First,
he announced himself as the fulfillment of the millenarian hopes of all the
world religions. Second, he expressed his advocacy of political democracy
both directly and through apocalyptic imagery. Third, he insisted that it
was the duty of the state to care for the poor and to provide them with
essential services. He linked this principle to his fourth, the need for a
form of world governance. He believed there would be much smaller military
budgets and reduced taxes on the poor if the world's major states would
form a global political union based upon the principle of collective
security."
(p 7, Iranian Millenarianism and Democratic Thought)
Our cart is complete ;-)
I won't labour the point because I guess either we agree on this or not,
but the third point for instance would clearly put us on only one side of
the debate going on in the US in providing welfare assistance. The first
is also significant - the little matter of God - which we yet haven't
mentioned. (Australia at least is quite an atheistic democracy - it has no
time at all for religion in politics - indeed some of our churches are
getting a roasting here at the moment by the equivalent of a State Governor
- for presuming to comment on welfare policy - he claims they have no right
to make such critiques because of the division of church and state - our
past Prime Ministers have done the same). The fourth element would again
mean changes in the way modern democracies are run - despite the generally
higher level of economic well-being in the West this century as compared to
last - the criticism that Baha'u'llah made still remains true - vast
resources are squandered on military pursuits - and there are still many in
society who would benefit substantially were those resources diverted to
socially constructive ends. In Australia we are now getting to the stage
where we can no longer even provide a decent standard of free education to
our children. Tertiary education is no longer free. Hospitals are closed
- beds are short etc. etc. Baha'u'llah's call remains deeply relevant.
Freedom of Speech
----------------------
As I wanted to comment yesterday - the issue of freedom of speech remains
the crux of much of the debate here on talisman. I wanted to first offer
the Australian Baha'i experience as evidence that freedom of speech can
work even under within the current Baha'i context. The following is part
of an article posted in our Australian Baha'i Bulletin by the Association
for Baha'i Studies - justifying the content of its last conference which
had been criticised by some of the friends. The conference was on
Australian Baha'i History.
"The ABS Board defended the importance of history to Baha'i scholarship, as
well as the need for the Baha'i community to engage in self-reflection.
"Speaking generally, ABS tries to promote the broadest possible vision of
Baha'i scholarship through its annual conferences, rather than imposing a
narrow definition," said the Board. "Accordingly we seek no control over
the content of presentations: no attempt is made by the board or the
conference organising committee to restrict the range of topices which may
be addressed, nor do we require papers to be submitted and approved
beforehand.
Any Baha'i or non-Baha'i is welcome to welcome present. As a result the
presentations are always varied in content, quality, and style."
The Board has done this exercising its delegation from the NSA of the right
of review. Individual Baha'i and non-Baha'i scholars are free to say what
they like at ABS Conferences. Where review is carried out - say of papers
after conferences - it is peer review - it is carried out by the Baha'i
scholars themselves pursuant to policies developed by them. I don't know
how this compares to America, but the complaints lead me to suspect that
such freedom does not apply there.
Why is there such a difference between our two communities? One obvious
factor is mutual respect and trust between the institutions and the
scholars. This is an intensely spiritual factor - it does not require
ombudsmen, a bill of rights or other such approaches to institute - it
requires a higher level of spirituality and maturity. This seems to me to
be where the solutions lie. (All the democratic devices of the US
Constitution did not prevent McCarthyism and persecution of communists by
the US Senate). Before I provoke a blast I think that there are probably a
number of historical factors that account for the differences between our
two Communities.
1. The Faith in Australia was established after the administration was
established - while there were difficulties of an individual nature in the
development of the Australian Baha'i community - the difficult struggles
the US faced in transforming itself from the community established by
Kheiralla to that envisaged by Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi has probably
left deep historical roots of tension with the administration (even if we
do not look to the outside factors of the nature of American society). One
way to characterise the expulsion of Kheiralla was that it was the only
ever successful Baha'i revolution - the overthrow of Kheiralla as leader of
the US Community was caused in part by actions of American Baha'is in
appealing to Abdu'l Baha and bringing to notice his misdeeds. No doubt the
result was right - but the cost was enormous in terms of lost Baha'is loss
of momentum and individual pain. I expect that experiences such as this
and the troubles over establishment of a national identity in National
Temple Unity and then in the subordination of the National Convention to
the National Spiritual Assembly has left deep scars which re-surface in
American Baha'i relationships such as in the events referred to on this
list. The struggles to this point no doubt involved a lot of activities
which we would today regard as breaches of proper Baha'i conduct.
It must also be deeply spiritually significant with the loss of Kheiralla
not to have a 'spiritual parent' of the American Baha'i Community.
Australia has this in the figures of Mother and Father Dunn (the pioneers
from America who in 1920 established the Australian Baha'i Community) who
are always potent reminders of spiritual self sacrifice and examples of
service - the administration is secondary to their spiritual examples - it
is their child. In the US the administration has no spiritual parent -
because he had to be thrown out in order that the administration could come
into being - to resort to bizarre exaggeration - the birth of the
administration involved patricide (pretty sick hey? :-)).
Well all this is by way of saying that there is nothing in the Baha'i
system which by its nature will mean that it will operate in a less than
free way. Obviously our respective history affects us - and may be a
source of difficulties which may be encountered for generations to come.
How much freedom is there? The way it is discussed on this forum one would
imagine that what Baha'is say is tightly watched and no one can say
anything without the explicit or implicit approval of the NSA. Is this a
correct picture?
From what is said by the House in their Dialogue letter and their letter on
individual rights and freedoms I think its fair to draw a distinction
between scholarly freedom of speech and political freedom of speech. There
is as far as I can see no limit of truly dispassionate and scholarly study
of the Baha'i Faith. There is however limits on political freedom of
speech. (By political I mean speech intended to influence the actions of
the adminstration or the community). Even in this latter respect I think
the freedom is pretty broad - we can say whatever we like so long as it
does not involve an attack on the institutions or individuals serving on
the institution and what we say is expressed in an appropriate matter. We
have to distinguish "criticism" of a constructive kind from attack - as I
understand it this is well within Baha'i dialogue.
Does this amount to lack of freedom of speech? Even democracies limit such
freedom. In Australia the Government has recently passed a law making it
an offence to incite racial hatred or violence (something civil
libertarians didn't like - but something which nonetheless is now within
the parameters of democratic discourse). In the US I am sure that there
will be laws making it an offence to incite treason (ie an attempt to
overthrow the Government) - I know that 'treason' is an emotive word - but
I am using it only because there is no other technical term. This is a
limit on freedom of speech. I am sure that inciting people to commit
murder is outside freedom of speech. Also defamation law gives the
sanction of the courts to individually initiated limits on freedom of
speech. (In Australia politicians sometimes sue papers or their opponents
who have gone too far in something they have said.)
In other words no right - including the right of free speech is absolute -
it is always balanced against other rights. In the Baha'i context the
right of free speech is balanced against the need for social order and
implicitly the right of individual Baha'is to harmonious community life -
which in the Baha'i Faith can only exist in conditions of support for the
administration.
In democracy attacks on the government are OK - because conflict is
ritualised through the democratic process - the outcome of the conflict is
that the opposition - those usually leading the criticism - can if they
prove their case replace the Government.
In the Baha'i system conflict is not ritualised and made part of the system
- the Baha'i Faith calls on society to eliminate conflict all together - to
consult until a condition of harmony and unity is realised. In this
entirely different context freedom of speech to attack the administration -
the government so to speak - can lead nowhere - there can be no opposition
- all that can result is collapse of the system and disaffection of the
believers - because a truly Baha'i system can only exist in conditions of
absence of conflict.
Well I have said enough. Thank you Juan for your patience, I have learnt
much from our dialogue and regret that I must depart. - Feel free to
critique anything I have said in my absence if you feel it is warranted.
Terry in response to your post - I was not offended by it - my reason for
not replying was the same as for my unsubscription - non-cyber space life
moves on and must be attended to.
It is sad to witness the struggles the Faith in America is going through -
after all there would be no faith here but for the American Community. I
sincerely hope that you can all through this forum find a solution that
truly leads you to freedom and justice as Baha'u'llah desired. For what my
opinion is worth - Jim Harrison's post seems to me to represent 'wisdom' -
there is no point continuing on a path proven to be unworkable. My own
experience of the Baha'i administration is that if one meets with abuse and
responds with strict adherence to Baha'i principle and spirit the abusers
undo themselves before very long - and the system corrects. When there is
response in kind - abuse becomes dispute - as both parties are wrong there
can be no satisfactory resolution and the cycle of conflict continues.
Regards again to all
Michael
(curtotti@ozemail.com.au)
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
"Eric D. Pierce"
Subject: RE: Re (2): Fascism and inflammatory language
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 04:57:08 -0800
In my previous post on what I felt was inflammatory language I may have
inadvertently appeared insensitive to the concerns of people who are aware
that Fascism is still very much alive and kicking in much of the world.
Please accept my apologies for any hasty remarks. I just wish to emphasize
that a restrained and respectful tone always seems to get a better hearing
and let it go at that.
Warmest,
Hannah
=END=
From: colerche@vub.ac.be (Lerche Charles Olsen)
Subject: 4 Year Plan
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 14:36:12 +0100 (MET)
I wish to deeply thank Mr. Rabbani's thoughtfulness in posting
the recent message of the Universal House of Justice, which
gives us a mouth-watering taste of the bounties in store for us
during the next plan. For those communities actively engaged in
promoting entry by troops, or hoping to do so, the Divine
Physician has inspired the Universal House of Justice to provide
us with the perfect remedy. If I remember correctly, Mr. Rabbani
lives in such an area. So do I. Our local community grew by a
modest 325% last year, and we hope to increase that. My
impression of the energizing message from the Universal House
of Justice is that this august body has read my heart and heard
my pleas. I am intensely impatient for the promised consultative
process to begin.
I have noted that some individuals who regularly post on Talisman
seem to be unhappy with certain aspects of their local and national
communities. I posit that participating in the process which will
lead to entry by troops may resolve some of the difficulties
causing this discontent. Mr. Fari Khabipour, an Adlerian
psychologist and a long-time member of the National Spiritual
Assembly of the Baha'is of Luxembourg, once remarked in a
talk that he felt institutional hesitation and lack of energetic
support for mass teaching was, in fact, a desire of certain members
to maintain the status quo out of a fear that, if there was a large
influx of new Baha'is, they would not be re-elected.
I do not have a personal opinion on Mr. Khabipour's statement,
but I fully agree with the posted quotation from a letter written
on behalf of Shoghi Effendi (which I paraphrase), that we should
down our problems in a mighty sea of new believers.
Sincerely, (Dr.) Loni Bramson-Lerche
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Not Saying You're Sorry
To: belove@sover.net
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 96 10:29:40 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu,
748-9178@mcimail.com, 0006596916@mcimail.com
According to belove@sover.net:
>
> When you claim infallibility (and some parents and friends do this)
> and you hurt someone, you never even think to apologize because you
> never do anything wrong. And the person who feels hurt, well, he'll
> just have to understand that the pain comes from his own spiritual
> immaturity. The only thing you, the infallible one, can say to the
> pained one is, "I'm sorry this hurts you, but you still have have to
> acknowledge that I'm right and you can't attack me."
snip
>
> So what do we do at this point? It seems that the rules are as
> follows: If the UHJ says someone was wrong, or unloving, or
> disrespectful, then that's the final word, isn't it.
>
> I mean, being infallible means never having to say you are sorry.
> Right?
>
> Mind you, fellow Talisman readers, there is nothing I hate ( and I
> mean hate, a feeling I hate to feel) more than the combination of
> feeling terribly wronged and still in the wrong.
>
> But this has really happened to me. Amazing, huh?
>
> This is the bounty that comes from praying for spiritual experiences.
> Thank you, Jesus.
>
> Does anyone think this nuance has a place in this current thread?
>
Very much so. The notion of infallibility is so powerful, so
evocative of limbic system mammalian parent-love, that it makes
people act nutty-- from top to bottom of the system. This
applies to Catholicism, too, and to a particular secret group
within Theosophy as well; I'm not picking on Baha'is here.
There are skillful means to push the maturation process
forward, and unskillful means that would only make things
worse. It seems to me that the NSA members have a kind of
derivative charisma that shields them from criticism. If a
single NSA member launched an outrageous attack against several
Baha'is, and the House listened mostly if not entirely to the
attacker(s) self-justifications, "redress" would mean both
House and NSA admitting wrong actions. Can or will they ever
do so explicitly? NO! That would mean public humiliation for
the offending individuals, the NSA and the House, as they would
see it from having spent their lives in a system that insulates
officials from any real accountability. This would also be
seen as mortally damaging to the Faith, although what it would
damage in truth is probably a mythical mindset you'd be better
off without.
What might work? Some kind of face-saving manouevre that
allows the bodies to admit no wrong, but make gestures of
reconciliation. This would be indicated by some kind of letter
discouraging Baha'is from readily charging one another with
heresy, being outraged by new ideas, attacking manifestations
of diversity, etc. Or some method of making The American
Baha'i more a grassroots forum for members and less a top-down
vehicle for centralized control. (The TS is facing the
identical situation with its national magazine).
What I have seen/am seeing within the Baha'i community has
alarmed me to the point that I will take the advice of Robert,
Mark et al and present my views to the House directly in a
letter. It may have the effect of a mild splash on the Rock of
Gibraltar, but you guys can't say I didn't try.
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 10:48:49 EST
Subject: songs (poem)
"Songs in my mind"
"makes the whole
world think"
"Now, it's too late baby
...I just can't take it"
"Give me a ticket
for an airplane"
"I'll be gone with the wind"
to island of Caribbean!
"Mine eyes have seen
the Coming of the Glory
of the Lord"
but, it's dark in home-front.
After guns are silent
and roses bloom
"Daylights come
and me wanna go home"
"Good morning America!
and how are you?"
Look! our brave sons!
"They 're coming back
to America!!!"
because it's now
"Summer-time and
the living is easy!!!!"
Welcome! hmmm?? perhaps!
lovingly-
Quanta Dawn0Light
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: dialogue letter
To: "Mark A. Foster"
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 96 11:05:39 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
According to Mark A. Foster:
> Personally, I would be hesitant to elevate my own perspectives over
> those of the House of Justice. I am a fallible being. What I think today
> about a subject may, due to my spiritual development, change tomorrow.
> However, the veracity of the statements of the House are not dependant
> on its members. As I have said previously, I believe that the House is,
> metaphorically, the resurrected body of the Twin Manifestations (as the
> church was, according to Paul, the resurrected body of Christ). The
> House of Justice exists sui generis, i.e., its conclusions do not
> directly depend on its membership.
To base a commitment like this on a metaphor seems a bit shaky
to me. We all may do it unconsciously, but IMO if you actually
KNOW that you are deriving facts from values-- which this
metaphor implies you will whenever a House message raises any
doubts-- this is a key step toward transcending it.
>
> The fallacy of appeal to authority, which I emphasize to my Social
> Problems students as we make our way through the anthology, applies,
> IMV, to humans and not to the divinely guided institutions of the
> Guardianship and the Universal House of Justice.
In the above sentence I see exactly why I have felt such
tension of late between the Mark who is a cornucopia of neat
info on a dozen or more non-Baha'i topics, a paragon of
pluralistic magnanimity, and the Mark who in Baha'i discourse
becomes an upholder of rigid orthodoxy. I call it
"compartmentalization." Meaning that the House, because it is
sacred to you, is exempt from all the normal old sociological,
psychological, historical, economic, political laws that make a
mess of the rest of our institutions? Compartmentalization
is far from unknown in Theosophy. Our international president,
by virtue of also being Outer Head of the Esoteric Section and
presumably directed by the Masters, has gotten away with
terrible abuses of power, because she's only doing what the
Masters tell her. IMO anyone who tells an authority figure
"You are above criticism; anything you do I will support" is
ASKING for BIG TROUBLE. As Jesus said, "Ask and it shall be
given." If the House is bombarded by messages like this, it
will become steadily more insulated from critical feedback and
less tolerant/respectful of diversity.
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 11:22:20 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: songs (poem)
Thank you Quanta Dawnlight
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "Talisman@indiana.edu" , Sadra
Subject: RE: "A Modest Proposal" - Please Post It!
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 08:27:24 -0800
Please include me in this. I'd like to receive it offline if that's the most
prudent method. I've had absolutely no clue as to what this discussion has
been all about. Now I'm very curious about it.
thanks
------------Hannah Elaina Reinstein---------------------------
"'Where do you get your ideas?' has always been the question I'm most
confronted with . . . I'm afraid the answer is much more mundane: I don't
know where my ideas come from. I will admit, however, that one key
ingredient is caffeine." -- Gary Larson (FarSide)
----------
From: Sadra[SMTP:sadra@rt66.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 02 January, 1996 21:42 PM
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: "A Modest Proposal" - Please Post It!
Dear Steven, David, Chris, Tony, Payam and others who were involved with the
Dialogue Affair--
Over the past year "A Modest Proposal" has been referred to quite a few
times but many of us here on Talisman haven't actually seen this
momentous -- or ominous, whatever your inclination is -- document.
Would it at all be possible to post it, or is there some kind of
outstanding official institutional ban on disclosing its contents?
I hope this doesn't sound presumptuous of me, but this humble servant says
let the faithful electorate (or list in our case) make up it's own mind
on "A Modest Proposal." If posting it on Talisman is going to prove too
politically explosive an issue, I'd still personally like to see it in
order to set my own mind at ease, so would sure appreciate it if someone
would be kind enough to send me a copy privately (snail or e-mail,
doesn't matter!).
Regrads,
Nima
=END=
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 96 09:53:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Entry by Troops
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
A new and much needed voice on Talisman, Loni Bramson-Lerche, noted:
> Our local community grew by a modest 325% last year, and we hope to
> increase that.
First, welcome to Talisman Loni.
Second, I'm envious!
Would you be willing to discuss a bit as to what led to your
community's remarkable success and what plans do you have for the
coming year which anticipates even greater growth?
Obviously, I plan to steal your ideas shamelessly for my own
community ;-} But seriously, I think Talismanians should take
advantage of this forum to cross-pollinate ideas as to what works
and what doesn't as we embark on the new plan with its sole focus on
Entry by Troops (EBT).
I personally am far more interested in learning those success
factors which can easily be used across a wide spectrum of
communities, some elements of which may include:
1. ways to energize local communities to focus on EBT;
2. organizational support needed to launch EBT;
3. teacher training programs and community awareness programs;
4. teaching materials for mass teaching efforts;
5. materials for new believers;
6. methods for consolidation, consolidation, consolidation.
Loni further noted:
> I am intensely impatient for the promised consultative process to
> begin.
I think the process has already began everywhere by folks reading
the 31 December letter and discussing it among themselves. It has
also started here on Talisman by various exchange of views. And
while we await the official process to commence at Ridvan, perhaps
we ought to go ahead and do some sharing of ideas/experiences.
I believe all other topics discusses are secondary in importance in
comparison to Entry by Troops thread -- I take Abdu'l-Baha's
statement in His Will and Testament that "the most important of all
things is teaching" as my evidence.
lovingly, ahang.
=END=
Date: 06 Jan 96 12:18:01 EST
From: Steven Scholl <73613.2712@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman`
Subject: Dear Turncoat
Eric and Friends,
I hope that my letter of March 89 to the House demonstrates that the dialogue
staff never acted as if the problems were all on one side and that we attempted
to acknowledge our errors, apologize for behavior that was viewed as disruptive
by the House and find ways to mend fences and move forward. I would just note
further that as editor of dialogue I offered every NSA member to serve as an
advisor to the magazine, to contribute to the magazine, to review articles, to
be a silent advisor and provide me with input that they thought would be
helpful. Several times I suggested convening a Review Summit with National
Center staff, publishing companies, dialogue staff, and leading Baha'i writers.
Several times we suggested that the NSA might want to use us and we offered to
work on any project that they suggested to us. All of my suggestions and
requests for input were met with a deafening silence.
Furthermore, it was made clear to us that the unwritten policy of the NSA was
that no NSA member should in any way lend support to the publication for fear it
would legitimize our efforts. National center staff and national committee
members were warned by NSA members not to associate with us, etc. etc. etc. etc.
I am extremely proud of what we accomplished under adverse conditions. I am
honored to have worked with Payam Afsharian, David Langness, Tony Lee, Robert
Ballenger, Janice Lineberger, Richard Hollinger, Sidney and Karan Morrison,
Janet Henderson, Peggy Caton, Bill Knight-Weiler, Ron Price, Muhtadia Rice,
Trudy Mesbah, Sandy Tjitendero, as well as the many writers who contributed to
the magazine. In the short span of 18 months we became the largest paid
subscription publication in the Baha'i world. I think our popularity made some
of the entrenched administrators nervous, since we obviously were providing a
forum for questioning the efficacy of the status quo.
I think it would be helpful remind everyone of the often overlooked: The
publishing rules were laid down by the institutions. We played by them. We were
completely open and honest. We discussed our motives endlessly--among ourselves
and in our communications with the institutions--and we attempted to do the
right thing. In hindsight, I would not have done much differently.
Peace,
Steve
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 96 12:38:32 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Jonestown & Mossedegh
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Eric, your posting on conspiracies, etc. was very interesting.
Just a little note. Jim Jones started out right here in Indiana. Alas for
those of us who inhabit this state, Jones would not have seemed out of place at
all here. After two years in Indiana, Dan Quayle now looks like a moderate.
Also, as for the CIA and Mossedegh, Gary Sick who is a leading expert on
Iranian politics claims that we have exaggerated the CIA's role and that a
large proportion of the Iranian public was for his ouster. You might want to
look at All Fall Down, if you have not already done so.
Linda
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:24:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: differentiation of lifeworlds
I guess I would like to discourage the project of writing to the House
about the *Dialogue* affair or other such past events. I do not see what
this would accomplish.
There is a natural desire on the part of some here to see a
reconciliation and restoration of agreement; some have even spoken of
"redress." I don't think that is the right way to go. Basically, I do
not believe you can get consensus--and certainly not unanimity--on some
issues.
The sociologist and theorist of modernity, Max Weber, spoke of the
differentiation of lifeworlds as one of the effects of modernity. We are
no longer villagers with a broadly similar view of the world. Some of us
are blue collar, some white collar; some are social democrats, some are
libertarians; some value unity over free inquiry and truth, others would
die rather than surrender free inquiry and truth. This differentiation
is true for institutions as well as individuals. The world looks
different from Haifa or Wilmette than it does from Ann Arbor or Bloomington.
Some sociologists of religion despair that the collapse of master
narratives and at least outward conformity endanger the continued
existence of religion.
I believe that Baha'u'llah, with his heritage in Rumi's and Ibn
al-`Arabi's Sufism, presented us with the solution to the problem of the
differentiation of lifeworlds. He provided us with a set of simple
symbols and institutions that everyone could acknowledge, and beyond that
he expected us to simply be understanding that human beings have
different standpoints, different intellectual and spiritual "stations"
(maqamat) that inevitably produce different points of view. And with
regard to points of view beyond the "standard" symbols and institutions,
he wanted us to exercise the simple virtue of tolerance. This was his
response to the 19th-century Iranian Baha'is who wanted to argue over
whether he was God or not. The truth of such a metaphysical proposition
depends on the epistemological station or standpoint from which it is
uttered.
What happened with the LA study class notes, some Kalimat projects,
Dialogue magazine, and the Encyclopaedia is that instead of acknowledging
the differentiation of lifeworlds and Baha'u'llah's standpoint
epistemology, Baha'i institutions attempted to impose a single official
discourse. I find no authorization for such a role for Baha'i
institutions anywhere in the Writings. These are growing pains. As
recently as the 1950s there were only about 5,000 American Baha'is, a
tightly-knit village-like community. The influx of tens of thousands of
baby-boomers in the 1960s and 1970s, of significant numbers of
African-Americans, and then from 1979 of 12,000 or so Persians, has
created a multicultural American community. It has also for the first
time since Ishqabad created a critical mass of Baha'i intellectuals
outside Iran. The Baha'is whose consciousness was formed in the '40s and
'50s, and who predominate in the administration, are simply having
trouble dealing with this intellectual diversity, which they see as disloyal.
Badgering them to accept it retroactively will only unfairly put them on
the spot. They have left Talisman alone, defining it as private
discourse. They have backed away from sanctions on noncompliance with
Review. Some appear to have decided that the intellectuals are not going
to go away, and repressing them is a losing game, so the best strategy is
to try to isolate the mainstream Baha'i community from their influence by
encouraging anti-intellectualism while letting the intellectuals natter
on. I can live with that. Saman is right that major steps forward have
been taken. While something is lost by acknowledging that intellectuals
are probably better off working on their own projects, artisan-style,
rather than on big public projects such as Dialogue and the
Encyclopaedia, freedom to work on one's own projects appears to exist.
Talisman has been hard to turn into anything other than a set of
discontinuous conversations. But maybe it would benefit if the old
Dialogue columnists took on specific responsibilities to occasionally
post in their specialties short essays. The Baha'i Faith and the
environment. The Baha'i Faith in post-apartheid South Africa. The
Baha'i faith and Hans Kung. The trick would be to be brief and
provocative enough to start a thread. Ahang's postings on Fadil
Mazandarani have followed this pattern, and been excellent.
Alternatively, perhaps occasionally specialists such as Nader Saiedi or
Susan Brill could be brought back on to do a mini-deepening on a specific
subject for, say, two weeks at a time. This would enable us to recoup
some of the talent that has been lost owing to time-commitments.
Talisman needs a positive message if it is not to descend into a lifelong
kvetching exercise; Jim Harrison and Michael Curtotti are right about
that. (And I acknowledge my guilt in sometimes being unwilling to let the
past go.) The positive message is surely that the Baha'i Writings are
relevant to the problems facing the world of modernity (or high modernity
or postmodernity or however you see it), and to the problems facing the
Baha'i world, and that Baha'i intellectuals have a role in critiquing the
present and presenting utopian realist alternatives.
Would the esteemed list-owner be willing to consider adding some form of
this latter statement to the list rules?
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: infallibilities
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 12:28:54 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
K. Paul Johnson wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
P >To base a commitment like this on a metaphor seems a bit shaky
P >to me. We all may do it unconsciously, but IMO if you actually
P >KNOW that you are deriving facts from values-- which this
P >metaphor implies you will whenever a House message raises any
P >doubts-- this is a key step toward transcending it.
Hi, Paul -
I am not basing my belief in the contextual (and contextualized)
infallibility of the House's decisions on the metaphor of "bodily"
resurrection. That is just my personal viewpoint. The Baha'i Teachings
explain that the power and influence of the Manifestation increase after
His Ascension. My point was that the Universal House of Justice, I
think, represents the universal authority of the Manifestation over the
earth, Or, to put in another way, the Supreme Body is the realization of
the global dominion of Baha'u'llah and His Revelation. Likewise, the
establishment of the church (the unity in diversity of believers in the
ecclesiastical soma) was, IMO, the institutional fulfillment of the
authority of Christ.
P >In the above sentence I see exactly why I have felt such
P >tension of late between the Mark who is a cornucopia of neat
P >info on a dozen or more non-Baha'i topics, a paragon of
P >pluralistic magnanimity, and the Mark who in Baha'i discourse
P >becomes an upholder of rigid orthodoxy. I call it
P >"compartmentalization."
Paul, I don't make these distinctions. To me, it all relates nicely.
IOW, I can see the connections between my views on various subjects.
However, I can understand why you *might* feel the way you do. Clearly,
I alter my writing style (to some extent intentionally) depending on the
subject. Now, while I do not assume that anything I say is necessarily
correct, I don't feel any cognitive dissonance either, and I do not
think that I do much in the way - at least no more than what I think is
average - of what cognitive psychologists call "compartmentalization"
either.
I think I know what you mean about upholding Baha'i orthodoxy.
However, that is not how I see myself. I know very few Baha'is who, as
far as I know, generally seem to share my perspectives on most things I
say or write. Well, at least I almost never hear other people expressing
many of the same views I hold. OTOH, it has been my observation that
most Baha'is accept the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice
- and really don't get into breaking it down (or, in some cases,
questioning whether it was ever intended in the Texts themselves). I
obviously enjoy both analysis and synthesis, but I also believe in the
infallibility of the House. If that is Baha'i orthodoxy, then so be it.
Yet, when I explain my views on almost all subjects dear to me (at
Baha'i study classes, etc.), including those on infallibility, I find
that most Baha'is have never considered things from my POV.
Personally, I do not like labels like "orthodox" and "heterodox"
because I think they tend to be disunifying and to commit the "fallacy
of naming." IOW, one may form an image of a person, based on the label,
and proceed to interpret everything that person says using it. I feel
that it sets up a kind of bias and, especially when used on some folks
who may not have clearly formed their views, a Mertonian self-fulfilling
prophecy (or pygmallion effect).
P >Meaning that the House, because it is sacred to you, is exempt
P >is exempt from all the normal old sociological, psychological,
P >historical, economic, political laws that make a mess of the
P >rest of our institutions?
Well, I would presume that the House is sacred, or extraordinary, to
all Baha'is. Still, I *do* look at the the Baha'i system as a sociologist
- though my definition of sociology might be broader and more inclusive
than most.
Blessings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:56:23 EST
Subject: poem
"Rock the boat?
No! dont' rock the boat baby!"
"We are one in spirit!""
building model come-unity.
Seeee!! our diversity?
power and dollar,
feast and hunger,
filthy rich and
pure hearted.
Snap snap click click
of hand shakes and
smiles that please
with "people of capacity"
"Hmm! I feel good"
what a nice rhythm!
that hides reality.
Aint't we smart huh?
think fooled God this time!
Oh! No! watch!
row the boat,
faster please!
he-roes and she-roes
tired and timid.
No refuge in sight,
so let's build the Ark!
the flood is coming!
Hey! did you read
Garrett Hardin's "life boat ethics?"
America lives by it.
Sorry! "only the strong survive"
"bye bye birdie!!"
not everyone deserves
a life-jacket.
But, "The Nightingale of Paradise,
singeth upon the twigs
of the Tree of Eternity....""
After Hardin the wiseman
read the "Tablet of Ahmad"
of His Holiness Baha'ullah.
You will need "...the sweet melodies..."
Chant one for me too please!!
quanta Dawn-Light
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 20:59:59 +0100 (MET)
Subject: viewpoints of UHJ
To: pxq00435@niftyserve.or.jp, talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Mark,
obviously I have a rather more independent stance, and this is
maybe as much a matter of personality as doctrines. I do see a
couple of weak points in the position you articulated tho':
1. You seem to be assuming that the Universal House of Justice
is a mature institution, since you contrast its perspectives with
personal perspectives which change as the individual matures.
My experience of the House, and indeed some of the letters
posted here, indicate to me that it is still going up a steep
learning curve as an institution (note that this is not to say that
the members as individuals are personally immature). And
therefore I think there is a reasonable hope that its perspectives
in some matters may change, and that its skill in dealing in
particular with dysfuntional national assemblies will increase.
Question: do you know anything in the writings which would
indicate that the House is now, or is inherently, a mature
institution? If there is no such evidence, its own behaviour and
the fact that the order of which it is a part is admittedly in its
infancy would suggest that there may be very ample room for
development over time.
2. You imply that infallibility relates to proposition correctness,
since you refer to 'the veracity of the statements of the House'
and 'Infallibility means truth without error'. I don't think this
interpretation of infallibility can be substantiated, and anyway I
don't think propositional correctness is terribly relevant here,
since you are talking about viewpoints and attitudes rather than
facts. Being correct and dealing wisely with others are two
different things.
3. You say "From my POV, the House is the best determinant of
its own infallibility." and as I understand it you are referring here
to the sphere to which the doctrine applies, rather than what the
content of the infallibility may be (yes?). I think I disagree, and I
notice that you don't cite a source here, but let's see where it
leads us. The Guardian says that, "Divorced from the institution
of the Guardianship ... the necessary guidance to define the
sphere of the legislative action of its [the Faith's] elected
representatives would be totally withdrawn." No reference to
infallibility here, but at least an indication that the Guardian,
rather than the elected institutions, has the function of defining
what the function of other institutions may be. Moreover, the
doctrine of the infallibility of the Universal House of Justice is
based squarely on the text of the will and testament of `Abdu'l-
Baha, and the function of the House of Justice is to "take counsel
together regarding those things which have not outwardly been
revealed in the Book." Unless one considers 'the Book' here to
refer only to the Aqdas, the infallibility of the House of Justice
IS 'outwardly revealed' and thus falls outside the power of the
Universal House of Justice to define, but within the sphere of the
Guardian to interpret. In fact if one considers infallibility to be
based ultimately in the Aqdas, to which the Will and Testament
is an authoritative exposition, then one cannot escape the
conclusion that it is not within the sphere of the Universal House
of Justice to define this doctrine. That effectively means that we
have to do it individually, based on the writings of Shoghi
Effendi such as those I've quoted (from the 'Administrative Order'
chapter of 'The Dispensation of Baha'u'llah).
4. I will not respond in detail to the suggestion that the Universal
House of Justice is the incarnation of the Manifestations. If it is a
poetic expression it can do no harm, and as a statement of
doctrine it seems so far out of court as not to need any response.
The Guardian called the exaltation of the Guardian to the rank
of Abdu'l-Baha (as Center of the Covenant) or of the
Manifestation of God "open blasphemy." (also in 'Administrative
Order') Is there any reason to think he would not have felt the
same about the exaltation of the Universal House of Justice in
this way?
A couple of other points where I may not have been perfectly
clear. You say 'I would also not want to think of myself as
obeying while inwardly (or outwardly) reserving my right to
differ with the House.' The issue I think is whether we should be
happy to 'differ' from the House in terms of having a differing
point of view (and BTW, I do 'reserve' - or maintain - that right
providing it is done outwardly: an inner reserve with outward
show of conformity would be detestable). Having a differing
point of view is inevitable, the question is whethere we should
consider this a normal and acceptable state of affairs. The will
and testament says (as cited in DOB):
"Unto the Most Holy Book" (the Kitab-i-Aqdas),
Abdu'l-Baha states in His Will, "every one must turn, and
all that is not expressly recorded therein must be referred
to the Universal House of Justice. That which this body,
whether unanimously or by a majority doth carry, that is
verily the truth and the purpose of God Himself. Whoso
doth deviate therefrom is verily of them that love discord,
hath shown forth malice, and turned away from the Lord
of the Covenant."
If one considers that 'deviate from' includes having different
attitudes, different evaluations of events, different philosophical
assumptions and so on (and it could mean that), then I suppose
one should try to bring one's attitudes into conformity with those
implicit in the statements of the Universal House of Justice (but
not those of auxiliary institutions, which is another question). But
'deviate' here seems to me to refer to obeying directives: I think
and I hope you will see that it could also mean that. There is a
letter of the Guardian's secretary in Dawn of a New Day p61
which refers to "Doctrinal unity and administrative unity". The
distinction is useful I think. I understand the Will and Testament
verse here to be referring to administrative unity only since it is
linked precisely to what is not 'expressly recorded' and I don't see
anything which would authorize the Universal House of Justice
to build a consensus - or try to force one - on doctines,
viewpoints, etc not expressly recorded.
Finally, an appeal to authority is a statement presented for
acceptance on the basis of who made it, rather than what it says.
I don't see that it makes any difference whether the originator of
the statement is an individual or institution. I can't see anything
in my original post that would have lead you to think I was
talking about individuals, so I think you misread me here.
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:05:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Jonestown & Mossedegh
Linda, so let me get this straight, Bloomington is an island of liberalism
in a sea of right-wing conservatism? ;-) Btw, I've heard there are more
American Muslims per capita in Bloomington than any other city in the US
-- is this true?
On Gary Sick's book _All Fall Down_: Sick grossly exagerates the role of
popular dissent against Mossadegh -- there was dissent, sure, but it wasn't
popular by any margin, as events subsequent to his political demise would
prove. Many of those who marched in the streets of Tehran on that foreboding
day in August 1953 where paid by CIA operators, as Kermit Roosevalt
himself admits in _Countercoup_, and ill reputable lalezari elements such
as the mafia-like Rashidian brothers and Shaban Bimokh, who where
themselves organized by the CIA and brought out the ruffs, wrestlers
and ladies-of-the-night unto the streets.
Have my grandfather, Mohammad Hazini, tell you about his Kafkaesque
experiences on that day sometime. I'll give one example. He was riding
his bicycle home from the campus of Tehran University a little before
noon when he saw a crowd of demonstrators assembled on one of the major
streets. Guess what the crowd was chanting? "Marg bar Mossadegh mahboob,
zendebAd Shah-i khA'en" (Death to our beloved Mossadegh, long live the
traitorous Shah)! Someone at the front of line had obviously gotten the
script confused :-) Need I say more .
Nima
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 15:46:32 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Amendments to list rules
The list owner is open to interesting initiatives but is not clear of
what amendments to the list rules Prof. Cole is calling for.
John Walbridge
List Owner
=END=
From: colerche@vub.ac.be (Lerche Charles Olsen)
Subject: re:EBT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 21:52:33 +0100 (MET)
The process of preparing for entry by troops in Belgium was
most certainly started by the National Spiritual Assembly of
Belgium, about two years ago, guided by the European Board of
Counselors. Declaration cards were abolished. Anybody who
says they believe in Baha'u'llah to two Baha'is is also a member of
the Baha'i community and is automatically welcome to participate
in local activities. However, in order to be able to vote in elections
and to be voted for, as election lists are generated by the computer
at the national center, the new Baha'i must be willing to share some
basic personal information which the computer program needs.
This is usually done by filling out a census form, but if the individual
does not wish to fill it out, the secretary of the group or local assembly
can just send in the information. This idea of a *two-track
declaration and enrollment process* was developed in eastern Europe.
We also have a dynamic Auxiliary Board member for propaga-
tion. At the same time the Belgian National Spiritual Assembly
implemented this decision, she began what she calls *heart to
heart* teaching projects. It has been very successful, but if
you want to know exactly what it is you will have to communicate
directly with her. It involves prayer, mediatation, deepening, and
allowing yourself to be guided to people who are open to dialog.
The Counselors were also at the origin of this type of teaching.
Two summers ago, the Quinn family (New Hampshire) came to
Belgium to spearhead a youth teaching campaign with their
wonderful dance and music program. The end result of this
campaign was that we met a political refugee from Bangladesh,
which, to make a long story short, also put us into contact with
the groups of political refugees from Zaire and Angola.
These people are the victims of intense racial hatred here. You
might have heard of the recent increase in popularity of
fascist political groups in Belgium. In our town it has led to a riot,
with a Moroccan youth being shot. Racism is so bad that some
stores refuse to sell to anyone who does not look like or speak like
a Belgian (Americans and Japanese, though, are ok). The first
step, we have found, is to try to manifest loving kindness and respect
until the person understands that we accept them for who they are.
Then they are willing to come to our homes to really talk about the
Baha'i Faith. What is usually the last step is that we go to
their homes, with our children, to eat with them. When they see
that we are willing to share their culture with them, and our
children, they become Baha'is. The Baha'i children especially
touch their hearts.
We are being greatly aided by the auxiliary board members and
their assistants. The National Spiritual Assembly is being very
flexible about introducing the new Baha'is to the laws and is
patiently waiting the right time for the formation of the local spiritual
assembly. We have not hit on a magic key for consolidation.
The new Baha'is are funded to attend national events. (In the US
that would be a regional activity.) We distribute a one-page
deepening letter and try to help them with their problems, which are
many. We visit as many as we can as often as we can. The
assistant for propagation is going to start a children's class with a
parallel class for the wives of the new Baha'is. We have found
that patience, love, unity, and understanding are important virtues
to develop. The new Baha'is are active teachers, so we have high
hopes for the future. The Counselors have recently advised the
National Spiritual Assembly to concentrate on Verviers. The
National Youth Committee is also going to support us by holding
some activities here. As you can see, we are really at the beginning
of the process and are just trying to nurture it along. We are waiting
for consultations to begin with the national institutions to further the
consolidation process. We are, hopefully, at the beginning of a
wonderful adventure. Our community is currently Belgian, American,
Bangladeshi, Angolan, and Zairois.
This is, of course, a highly summarized version of what has
been going on. We would be very interested in other peoples'
experiences and ideas.
Sincerely, Loni Bramson-Lerche
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 96 15:37:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: UHJ ON HUMAN RIGHTS
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Chris, thanks for your well reasoned approach to the subject of human
rights and its implications for the Baha'i Faith. I agree with your
conclusions and look forward to a time when we (the entire Baha'i
community) will take such things seriously and will act upon them. We have
great, radical, even revolutionary ideals (these are what attracted me to
the Faith), but we have as yet, like the lotus flower, to rise above the
mire of the status quo and the conventional way of doing things.
Please continue to post your thoughts on this vital subject.
Chris Buck wrote >
The point I wish to make is that the Baha'i Faith is legally
C >obliged and morally committed to observing *The Universal Declaration o
C >Human Rights*. Am I wrong? In presenting the Baha'i community as *a mod
C >for study*, I think we had better be clear about human rights and begin
C >acknowledge that the world will judge us by the very standards that we
C >openly and publicly support.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * Day and night cannot dwell together. --Chief Seattle
=END=
From: Muhtadia@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 17:06:32 -0500
To: Member1700@aol.com, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Kwanzaa
Indeed, indeed, Tony and Flor Geola-Lee's Kwanzaa party was a smashing and
wonderful success. My three guests (2 of whom are Christians) enjoyed every
moment of it. They certainly enjoyed the call and response of Baha'i quotes,
etc. and I agree that this style of including the audience had a positive
impact on helping participants feel connected. They also loved the music
(even though they missed my Zulu sung prayer and were really bummed!).
One of the most interesting aspects of the party was that probably 25% of the
attendees were Persians over 50 who spoke little to no English at all! They
were friendly, interested in involved! Quite an impression for
African-American non-Baha'is to witness.
So yes, I whole heartedly agree with my dear brother Tony (a rare thing in
itself)! These event opportunities, such as Kwanzaa, allow the Baha'i
community to personalize (Bahai-ize) a function, remain connected to the rest
of the world, and allow the outside world to relate to us.
Kudos to Tony and Flor! Always an elegant affair, warm and welcoming, and
besides, they serve a great spread and some "mean" desserts!
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 96 16:10:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: UHJ AND HUMAN RIGHT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I second Ahang's suggestions listed below.
RA>Further, I wish to go on the record supporting:
RA>1. a petition to the Universal House of Justice that the case of
RA>Dialogue incident be re-examined in light of *all* the facts
RA>which previously may not have been available to the Supreme
RA>infallible Body;
RA>2. if economically feasible, the Dialogue magazine be restarted;
RA>3. the US NSA publicly clarifies its position on the
RA>administrative rights of the believers involved in this incident.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * All human beings have an innate urge to know. Aristotle
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 96 16:08:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: UHJ AND HUMAN RIGHT
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I second Ahang's suggestions listed below.
RA>Further, I wish to go on the record supporting:
RA>1. a petition to the Universal House of Justice that the case of
RA>Dialogue incident be re-examined in light of *all* the facts
RA>which previously may not have been available to the Supreme
RA>infallible Body;
RA>2. if economically feasible, the Dialogue magazine be restarted;
RA>3. the US NSA publicly clarifies its position on the
RA>administrative rights of the believers involved in this incident.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * All human beings have an innate urge to know. Aristotle
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 12:01:50 +1200
To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: differentiation of lifeworlds
Talismans,
While I don't agree with everything said in it -- (I have special
difficulty with the conceptualisation of the unity in diversity principle )
-- I think Juan's letter represents one of the major landmarks of Talisman.
Among landmarks it is a lighthouse. I was especially pleased with his
acknowledgement of the value of the ideas of Michael Curtotti and Jim
Harrison.
Robert.
=END=
From: froskooi@mem.po.com
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:30:12 -0500
To: global@usbnc.org, pioneer@usbnc.org, rstockman@usbnc.org,
talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: 76101.3361@compuserve.com
Subject: Wilmette Institute
FROSKOOI@pol.com
Allah'u'Abha! Regarding your ad in the American Baha'i, I woulb be glad to
help though with limited time and talent. Currently I work with Mr. Riazati on
entering
the Baha'i Persian & Arabic texts into computer -- proof reading -- .
Best wishes and congratulations,
Firooz R. Oskooi, M.D.
1945 Santiago Dr.
Newport Beach, CA 92660
Tel.: (714) 642-9324
Fax.: (714) 642-6318
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 15:13:19 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: (W. B. Jackson)
Subject: please subscribe
Hello all, please subscribe me to this wonderful discussion group... Thanks,
Wendy..
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: viewpoints of UHJ
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 17:41:36 -0600 (CST)
Sen McGlinn wrote to talisman@indiana.edu"
S>And therefore I think there is a reasonable hope that its
S>perspectives in some matters may change, and that its skill in
S>dealing with particular with dysfuntional national assemblies
S>will increase
Hi, Sen -
Is your belief that the House is not mature based on the differences
you have with the House - such as the one you mentioned in your previous
message to me regarding "Individual Rights and Freedoms"? IOW, would you
have come to your views if you agreed with the House on the matters you
now disagree with? I am only asking this question because I have never
seen any passages in Baha'i primary sources which connect the maturity
of the Supreme Body with its infallibility.
As to maturity itself, I suppose it depends on how that term is
being used. The House will mature in the sense that the World Order of
Baha'u'llah, now in embryonic form, will mature. It will evolve into the
spiritual foundation of a global civilization. However, I have never
come across any statements in which administrative maturity has been
identified with alethiology.
S>Question: do you know anything in the writings which would
S>indicate that the House is now, or is inherently, a mature
S>institution? If there is no such evidence, its own behaviour and
S>the fact that the order of which it is a part is admittedly in its
S>infancy would suggest that there may be very ample room for
S>development over time.
I think that I have answered that above. However, when you refer to
"its own behavior," it seems as though you are basing your feelings on
your own personal disagreements with House decisions. Is that true? I
suppose if I had such strong differences, I might be inclined to feel
the same way. Yet, to my understanding, submission to the Will of God
would include, by definition, a reorientation in one's thinking and
acting to coincide with the views of the Supreme Body.
S>2. You imply that infallibility relates to proposition correctness,
I do not see the decisions of the House of Justice in these terms.
From my POV, determinations of right and wrong (or propositional
correctness vs. incorrectness) exist only on the rational level. On the
spiritual level, there are only relative degrees of spiritual truth,
i.e., as darkness, from a God's-eye viewpoint, is the absence of light.
IMO, the Universal House of Justice is the voice of truth and has been
protected from error (arriving at a "bad" decision based on available
information). I suppose that the question of propositional correctness
would depend on the accuracy of the information the House is working
with - which is why individuals are free to share additional information
with the House and why it has a Research Department.
S>The Guardian says that, "Divorced from the institution of the
S>Guardianship ... the necessary guidance to define the sphere of
S>the legislative action of its [the Faith's] elected representatives
S>representatives would be totally withdrawn." No reference to
S>infallibility here, but at least an indication that the Guardian,
S>rather than the elected institutions, has the function of defining
S>what the function of other institutions may be.
My point was that the House of Justice has access to texts which
give it authority. IOW, it can determine its own areas of infallibility
because it relies on the the words of Baha'u'llah, the Master, and the
Guardian. Also in the same passage from which you quoted above is the
assurance that neither the Guardianship nor the House would ever move
outside of their respective authorized domains. Therefore, I trust the
House to act within its bounds; and I would never want to presume to
tell the Supreme Body what it can and cannot do or what are the limits
to its rational-legal authority.
S>4. I will not respond in detail to the suggestion that the Universal
S>House of Justice is the incarnation of the Manifestations. If it is a
S>poetic expression it can do no harm, and as a statement of
S>doctrine it seems so far out of court as not to need any response.
It is only a personal viewpoint. I have no direct support for it.
But why do you feel that "it seems so far out of court as not to need
any response"? It seems to me to be, at least in some sense, in harmony
with the principle that the power of the Prophet increases after His
Ascension and with the explanation of the Master that the Resurrection
of the body of Christ refers to the exaltation of His Cause, i.e., as
the Cause of Christ was raised up in the church (referred to by Paul as
the body of Christ).
S>The Guardian called the exaltation of the Guardian to the rank
S>of Abdu'l-Baha (as Center of the Covenant) or of the
S>Manifestation of God "open blasphemy." (also in 'Administrative
S>Order') Is there any reason to think he would not have felt the
S>same about the exaltation of the Universal House of Justice in
S>this way?
I am not sure what part of my post you are referring to here. I
don't think that I gave any evidence of exalting the Universal House of
Justice to the level of the Prophet or the Master. If you mean my
reference to the Universal House of Justice as the resurrected Body of
the Twin Manifestations, I do not see how it would be blasphemous. We
know that the Resurrection of Christ is not literal. IOW, it does not
have anything directly to do with His physical body. Again, it is only
my own feeling, and I have admitted that I have no direct textual
support for it.
Regarding differing with the Supreme Body: I think that there is, at
least to my mind, a distinction between disagreeing with the House and
having an alternative way of looking at something. I have numerous,
perhaps somewhat original, views on subjects which have been discussed
by the House. However, I would never dismiss the views of the Universal
House of Justice. I simply regard my own thoughts as providing me with an
additional perspective. IOW, I accept that there are many layers of
truth and ways of considering the same subject - just as the Master
implied after giving an interpretation of the story of Adam and Eve to
Laura Clifford Barney. Obviously, personal viewpoints are, IMO,
acceptable as long as one makes no attempt to force them on others.
You quote from _The Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha_ regarding
turning to the Universal House of Justice and how its decisions are "the
truth and the purpose of God Himself." I do not see any qualification
about what sorts of decisions would be included. Again, I feel that it
up to the House to determine its range of authority (based on examining
the texts) - not to me.
S>Finally, an appeal to authority is a statement presented for
S>acceptance on the basis of who made it, rather than what it says.
S>I don't see that it makes any difference whether the originator of
S>the statement is an individual or institution. I can't see anything
S>in my original post that would have lead you to think I was
S>talking about individuals, so I think you misread me here.
I did not misread you. I was only giving my own explanation. You
were arguing that I was committing the logical fallacy of appeal to
authority by relying on statements of the Universal House of Justice. My
question would be: How would that be any different, or less logically
fallacious, than appealing to Baha'u'llah's authority?
Warm greetings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:48:30 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Differentiation of lifeworlds and our destiny . . .
Now I realize some are going to think the worst of motives here, but I
thought Juan's post was very good. And I agreed with virtually all of it.
Almost.
And the one thing I take issue with is that we are going to settle for our
best and brightest minds being shoved off in the corner. No, nope, not gonna
be that way. In the first place it won't last. It will always be a boil on
the back-end of our national community. And even if most the folks here were
quiet as church mice there are plenty of others who are ready to explode, or
who are even now walking away dejected. And we cannot let that happen. I am
not willing to see them shut-off.
It won't work Juan. I can't tell you how many times I have tried to walk away
from this whole issue of America's spiritual destiny - of which this very
real tragedy is a major part. And no matter how hard I tried to leave it all
behind, one way or ther other I end up either coming back to it, or found it
being thrown out in front of me - unavoidable.
Too many fine minds are already leaving, or worse turned off and refuse to
become a part of this Cause.
And I can't believe that any of you here, who have wrestled with me, tooth
and nail would ever be content to just shrink away to your little offices on
various campuses . . . to do what, die a slow death of the spirit?
No, this can't happen. The spiritual inertia that has gripped this country
for so long and the myopic twits that keep the status quo cannot be allowed
to continue.
Now we all agree on this. The question again friends is how best to make the
change. And the answer really does lie in promoting a revolution under the
banner of America's spiritual destiny. And the primary reason that this is
the very best strategy at our disposal should be obvious to everyone here, if
it is given just a little thought.
jim harrison
Alethinos
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:56:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: jwalbrid
Cc: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Amendments to list rules
John:
I am not proposing an amendment to the list rules, so much as I am
proposing a more focused statement of purpose (and more importantly,
implementation of purpose).
I have been around Baha'i e-mail discussion groups for a couple of years
now, and have found them wonderful for the ways in which they create a
group memory, a group mind almost. I know ten times as much about the
Baha'i faith now as I did five years ago (although admittedly I probably
know some things I'd rather not). As everyone can tell, I find the whole
experience exhilarating and am probably addicted.
I have benefitted enormously from postings of David Langness, Steve
Scholl, Terry Culhane, Christopher Buck, Ahang Rabbani, Tony Lee, John
Walbridge, and many, many others, many of these of great substance and
clear relevance to our lives.
*However*, this medium has serious problems.
1. We have had no successful slow-reads, because posts of serious,
substantive texts, require study and an investment of time in order to
make a response, and few of us are in a position to do more than just get
through our e-mail for the day.
2. Posts that are information-dense and serious of purpose tend to
elicit no resulting thread, and so the author is negatively reinforced from
posting them.
3. What is easy and tempting is to express mere opinion, especially
provocative opinion, and to use the medium to vent frustration or pursue
a shoot-out at the OK corral. There is a tendency to focus on boundary
problems, a few relatively minor issues that somehow are anomalous on
some scale (thus the focus on Bahai-discuss on kinky sexuality and its
resulting nickname of Bahai-disgust).
4. Psychologically, the blank e-mail screen and the anonymity and
facelessness of those one addresses invites subconscious
free-association; I don't think Linda's analogy of a psychiatrist's couch
is far off base. People say things on this medium that they would never
dream of saying in the company of physically present human beings. This
openness can be good or bad, depending, I suppose, on how healthy our
psyches are.
These points have been made by Ahang in the past, even better, and by
others. What I would like to do is see serious attention given to
*institutionalizing* some changes in the way we do things and the
purposes for which we use the medium, rather than just drifting along
venting frustrations. I have vented enormous amounts of frustration, and
do not mean to deprive anyone else of this pleasure, but it can't be all
we do or even the main thing that we do, or else we are deprived of a
*positive* purpose. And one thing history teaches us is that success
derives from having a positive purpose, not from kvetching.
The positive purpose I suggest is inquiry and research into the meaning
of the Baha'i faith, and into its implications for our understanding of
modernity/postmodernity, for resolving its problems; and into the
implications of modern and postmodern thought and society for the
development of the Baha'i Faith.
I'm just wondering whether there is not a happy medium between heavy-duty
scholarship and mere opinion-mongering. I think we have sometimes
attained it, as in the debate last year this time on my commentary on
Traveller's Narrative, or early on in the Aqdas deepening, or during
September's intensive study of the issue of women's service on the House
of Justice.
One possibility would be a resort to reportage. Wouldn't Mark Foster be
willing to do a weekly posting on some news item having to do with the
religious scene in the U.S.? Couldn't Steve Scholl discuss chapters in
Best New Writings on Religion, one by one? The point would be to have
list members specialize with regard to the subject of their ongoing
"columns," but to have them attempt to post in a provocative enough way
and on a general enough subject that others would feel led to explore a
set of personal spiritual responses, with, of course, the Baha'is
responding from various Baha'i points of view.
Another possibility would be to put out a monthly or biweekly (every two
weeks) electronic magazine. This would be the *real* way to resurrect
Dialogue. I'd be willing to edit it and would take submissions.
Knowing one was writing for a magazine might cause submitters to do a
little more research, a little more organizing, and to adopt a more
formal tone.
I'm just throwing out suggestions. I'm looking for feedback. Am I still
being unclear? Let me know.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 15:56:08 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca, jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu,
Gardner.STG@eworld.com, GWyckoff@eworld.com, GeraldFox@eworld.com,
diessner@lcsc.edu, MMHiggins@eworld.com, Shuwa@eworld.com,
Mcleandkm@eworld.com, JAJohnson@eworld.com, Ruha@eworld.com,
DaystarJapan@eworld.com, finley@alice.asahi-u.ac.jp,
BruceR.H.@eworld.com, DrewLa@eworld.com
Subject: Noticing: a request for stories
Dear friends, Talismans and recent Talisman departees Joan and Chris who are
completing their dissertations,
This is a request for qualitative, fine-grained data to supplement a recently
completed quantitative study on aspects of the process of spiritualization.
I would like to ask for personal anecdotes from those of you who have ever
had the experience of reading the Writings or praying about a particular
virtue or spiritual quality that you wanted to develop in yourself, thinking
about it, and then noticing it (or its lack!!) in the behavior of others
around you.
Of course, your identities are confidential and I will ask your permission to
quote part/all of your anecdote ( anonymously ) in my research report.
Please email them to: SFotos@eworld.com
Or fax them to: 81-422-34-9598
Thanks in advance,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:22:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: jwalbrid , talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: List rules --> email magazine
Juan suggests: "Another possibility would be to put out a monthly or
biweekly (every two weeks) electronic magazine. This would be the *real*
way to resurrect Dialogue."
Being new to Baha'i academia, I know nothing about and hence have no
stake in Dialogue. However, I have been following with fascination the
recent discussions on the importance of a "free press" and the feelings
of some that the Faith is discouraging such at the moment. I voice my
support for and interest in a more-objective and analytical journalistic
medium than the American Baha'i or Baha'i Canada, and one more immediate
than the JBS. I would be glad to contribute to the project in any way that I
can.
-Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
From: Augustine0@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 19:20:41 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'i and the Individual
First, a short intro:
Baha'i since Izzat, 124 (location, San Francisco, for me the culmination
of a two year period leading up to, and including, the summer of love in
1967); in general a long time observer of the human condition, spiritual
or otherwise; fortunately, iconoclastic to boot, where it involves "cult of
personality" issues, even rewarded thusly by Those Who matter (another
story); employed in applying mathematics/logics toward augmenting,
and improving, the human condition (even the spiritual) via that Promise
("thou shalt say 'Be' and it shall be") of Baha'u'llah; doing very well at
it, too, thank you; we are only at the beginning. ...
Second, a foreward:
I recently subscribed to talisman. I'm using another moniker, for the
moment, for several reasons. I first heard of this a year ago but delayed
joining. In the meantime, I was following Baha'i debates in several forums.
Most of these never touched upon what I see as a very important issue
to the individual struggling within the context of rapid materialistic
successes
to maintain her/his spirituality.
The issue: that science and religion are of equal importance and are
not disparate, they are forever intertwined; that we have ways to
model/analyze the dynamics of the relationships thereof. All of this, of
course, being enabled through the recent Revelation of all of the Letters
of Knowledge. ...
Third, I would like to, briefly, make a comment about three subjects
and to suggest that we look at a way to take an active stance in
resolving some issues on a regular basis.
a.. In Baha'i Ombudsman & Tribunal -- Christopher Buck wrote
(4) When Baha'u'llah and the Guardian spoke about the necessity of
having a free press, did They mean only in the secular world--and not
within the Baha'i Faith? If so, what precisely is the *pattern for a
future society* that we conceive ourselves to be evolving?
Well, what is wrong with providing something via the Web? The main
expense would be the host time/space. Otherwise, maintenance of
the page contents could be shared between several individuals. If
this has already been done, I would like to know the URL.
Before someone jumps to erroneous conclusions, I must say that
excluding known Covenant Breaker material, there could be many
types of submissions accepted. Categorization, and associated
Commentary, would steer the unwary and overly wary away from
the more controversial elements.
However, I would expect something produced with a Baha'i
influence to do more than to pick on those with the Administration
leaning, God bless them. I would like to propose a "virtual Vienna
Circle." What? Several things are involved here, but somehow there
needs to be put forth a reasonable, consistent presentation in
several arenas, such as a response to the 20 (or so) Tenets of the
AAAS. Not to provoke controversy but to allow those who seek the
truth a real and relevant alternative viewpoint to ponder, inquire about. ...
b.. In Re: Mixed Messages -- Paul Johnson wrote
But my reservations about the
direction the Faith seems to be headed can be changed, rather
easily and quickly, as soon as there are indications of a
change of direction.
Paul, I was happy to see you on talisman. I watched, briefly, some of
the argumentative flurry that surrounded your removing yourself from
s.r.b last year. I kept your address in order to make personal contact,
however this seems like a good time and forum to thank you for your
stance. Who does not need a sounding board now that the Real
Principals have departed to Better Realms?
The Faith is changing. Evolution is a natural part of God's Creation.
That certain types of human dynamics manifest themselves within the
Faith is another basic fact. Baha'u'llah said that He would raise up a new
race of men who were afraid of none, except God (a paraphrase). Well,
consider that we face God alone when we go over. The NSA or UHJ
are surely not going over with any of us, to plead our case.
Given this responsibility for myself, I'll take it seriously, thank you. And,
I'll not become an automaton. Ever, except when God pulls the strings,
and boy does He know how. By the way, this metaphor is stronger in
this case than one might think.
Paul, the Faith's Principles and Teachings work. Oh, boy, do they
ever! Now, why cannot real demonstrations of This Power be used
and discussed? First, though, we must overcome some limitations
on discourse. James alluded to these in his book on the Varieties
of experiences that are found. Yet, I believe that we'll see insights
come about from pondering the Writings that will have direct impact
on several scientific endeavors. Let me throw out the concept of
psychether as one example. ...
c.. In "A Modest Proposal" - Please Post It! -- Nima wrote
I hope this doesn't sound presumptuous of me, but this humble servant
says
let the faithful electorate (or list in our case) make up it's own mind
on "A Modest Proposal." If posting it on Talisman is going to prove too
politically explosive an issue, I'd still personally like to see it in
order to set my own mind at ease, so would sure appreciate it if someone
would be kind enough to send me a copy privately (snail or e-mail,
doesn't matter!).
Others sounded a similar message. Let me add another voice making the
request.
In regard to the controversy, why cannot the context be changed a little?
Such as, should someone entrenched in any position of "authority" that
is not a Divinely Given Right (are there any of these left, except within
the Administration?) consider the negative spiritual impacts which
accrue to continuing beyond certain limits? I mean. Let's not try to make it
a policy that there is a limit. Why not put the focus on the "spiritual"
issues involved and publish these in the above suggested manner?
In a sense, it's like the issue of wealth and the parable of the camel and
the eye of a needle. Some cannot help that their personality pushes them
toward publicly visible roles. Does this make them better than the
wallflower?
In fact, do they really provide more than the individual who truly applies
the
benefits of her/his belief in Baha'u'llah to her/his life, such as work,
caring
for her or his family?
In a sense, how can we rightfully idolize UHJ members as individuals?
Now, the Institution is God Given. However, the members, alone, really
deserve no more respect than do any human. I think that there are voids
within the human psyche that we need to learn how to deal with. The
downfall of the Kings has led to such replacements to meet the need as
various public figures, like rock stars, and so forth.
The whole "executive" aura is an example of this. Come on, people. Let's
take 9 individuals out of 5 billion. Can we really say that what those 9 do
is something the other 5 billion should wish for? Hah! If this were so, then
half the population has been excluded. In some real senses, the ladies
were blessed with not having this baggage upon their spiritual heads. Do
the heights a Believer can reach within the view of her/his companions
exceed those possible with a personal, spiritual relationship? Some seem
to think so. I wonder. Besides, how can 5 billion be judged on something
that only 9 can attain? Would that be just?
Well, what do you think? From my humble position, I see somehow that
the notion of "infallible" gets blown to include notions of Omniscience,
Omnipresence, Omnipotence. Does it, now? Well, from the mind-sets that
I've seen, yes it does. You see, everyone buys into some sort of autism.
Now, many share an autism and thereby have company. Others get into
terrible sorts. Guess what? There are good forms of these "autisms,"
and mysticism is the best, from certain viewpoints. And, let's now describe
the "autisms" bought into by Baha'is. ...
I said that I would be short so I'll quit. There are many more things that
could be said about the above.
... if my thought dreams could be seen, they would put my head
in a guillotine. Bob Dylan ... one of those who led me to the
Faith
... come on Bob, listen up!
Cheers,
Augustine0@aol.com
=END=
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 96 18:35:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Electronic Journal
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I like to be the first subscriber to Cole's Electronic Baha'i
Journal. I wholeheartedly endorsed his suggestion for such a
periodic enterprise.
Just to get things going, there is a wealth of materials
generated on Talisman during the past 14 or 15 months which can
be used as basis for many articles. These can be supplemented,
as Juan says, with other materials from those involved with
on-going studies.
I also endorse (and am grateful for the offer) of Cole as chief
editor of this electronic journal. May I suggest that a group
of 3-4 to assist Juan as editorial board? This board will be
responsible for internal "review". Each of the board members
will be responsible with materials in a particular "department",
with Juan being the overall editor.
Could we explore the possibility of a WEB site so that journals
are accessible to a larger audience on an indefinite basis?
Could we explore the possibility of collaboration between the
Lambden's Baha'i Studies Bulletin and Fazel's Baha'i Review
Bulletin with this new electronic journal? How about materials
shared on Tarjuman?
This is very exciting!
love, ahang.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 23:30:26 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Mashriq , Time and Space
Dear All and especially John ,
Last evening John posted a brief piece about the difficulty in
translating the word Mashriqu l Adhkar . He pointed out a very significant
implication of the word in his rendering of its literal root "meaning" . I
have been bouncing off the spiritual wall ever since . In his post John wrote
:" The form *maf il * is called in Arabic a 'noun of time and place' . The
root sh-r-q from which it is constructed has to do with sunrise. It thus
means both the place and the time of prayers . . . So it is the place of
worship - -"house of worship" -- - and the time of worship - - -" morning
prayers ."
As , I think , everyone knows I am a fan of the notion that the Mashriq
is an important institution . I also am one of those people who appreciates
modernity but wants to transcend modernity so I am also one of modernities
"discontents" . here is what has me so excited at the moment as one looking
for those aspects of the revelation which affirm and transcend modernity .
Last night I went exploring through my notes that are part of a 25 year
project filed as *The Faith and Modernity* . I came across the following
fron Anthony Giddens who is one of my favorite social theorists. Giddens has
argues that modernity is a *discontinuity * with traditional societies . he
identifies a few key aspects of modernity which make for such a distinct
break with tradition . One of these he considers most important is the sense
of time and space . " The dynamism of modernity derives from the separation
of time and space and their recombination in forms which permit the precise
time-space zoning of social lfe .." In short our sense of time is not
dependent on or necessarily linked to a particular space . We can create
modular units of time and space. This break in the link between a sense of
time and space creates the conditions for the rapid pace of change and
confronts tradition at every turn . Space in turn is separated from "place"
. here is where Johns post became fascinating . These two notions in
traditional societies are virtualy the same not so in modernity; empty space
has been created which has no connection to place as locale. A perfect
example of this is Talisman itself . Has anyone ever been to Talisman ? Nope
it is not a "place" . We have invented a name for something like Talisman ;
we call it "cyberspace" which is empty. This creates tremendous
opportunities but it also creates a great "discontinuity with traditional
societies . It is modernity radicalized . Along with the rapidity of the
change associated with modernity comes a heightened sense of insecurity and
the question of *Order* is raised in contexts not much dealt with . Humans
have dealt with one another in face to face communities and with a sense of
time linked to a sense of space .
I would suggest that the Mashriq u l Adhkar is a principle response of
Bahau llah and therefore the Bahai community to what has been one of the most
vexing questions associated with modernity the question of *order* and the
"unbridled" nature of institutional action to use the term of Shoghi Effendi
with respect to a criticism of capitalism . I am suggesting the Guardian's
critique here is applicable to any institutional arrangement that acts in an
unrestrained manner so as to create conditions of perpetual change without
regard to the lived reality of human beings . We cannot nor would I wish to
turn the clock back to "pre-modern " senses of time and place . Talisman
would disappear (: . We can however moderate and retain aspects of modernity
and trancend its radical seperation of time and space with the attendent
consequences for human relation ships .
Here is where the Mashriq comes in . It is an *Institution* which
reintegrates our sense of time and space as place . To quote John "So it is
the place of worship * . .and *the time of worship " . This reintegration
of time and space in the Mashriq will alter consciousness . It is an
institution and an act which is central to a communities identity and
practice and as such will have a transforming effect not only on the
consciousness of Bahai's but those around them as well . It is also a
transformation which does not in the least require a theocracy in fact it
functions best without it, thus accepting the "modern " separation of
religion and civil government . I figure Baha u llah knew what he was doing.
Among other things I believe this institution presages a healing of the
discontinuities implicit in modernity and provides a pathway, not to return
to some neo-traditionalist past, but, forward to trancend modernity.
A small example . Today in conversation I tried this out in a teaching
context . Lora Mccall gave me the "snow" example . It is Omaha Nebrasks and
there are not a few hundred or a few thousand Bahais but say 50 thousand in a
city of 400 thousand. It is winter and it snows in Omaha Nebraska. ( More
than I like) . Omaha is situated in a "Comercial society" . One in which the
energy of life is directed towards the perpetuation of commerce as
consumption/ production as an end in itself .
Every day in accordance with the expilit provisions of sacred scripture
tens of thousands of Bahais do what ? They begin there day with a
reintegrated sense of time and place at and in the Mashriq u l Adhkar. A
community gathers 365 days a year to "listen to the verses of God ." This is
how the "Day" begins . That many people in motion towards a common end
creates traffic - - *ordered movement *. As we all know who live in snowy
regions with certain amounts of snowfall the snowplows come out . The
snowplws are operated by the civil government. Their job is to serve the
various publics who comprise the community . It is also to prioritize that
service to those "ends " that a society has deemed constitutive of its
primary purpose for existing . That being currently "commercial " ends. So in
Omaha when it snows the first areas cleared of snow are those leading to the
cities centers of commercial activity .
Now what happens when a significant group of people start re-intrgrating
the modern split between time and space and further this split is
reintegrated into "sacred" time and "sacred" space? Those people start to
function differently in the world . Economic activities for example are no
longer the central purpose of life; a sense of the sacred is. That of course
has a re-ordering effect not only for the participants in this reintegrated
time and space but for those who have relationships with them . Bahais first
of all gather at dawn for prayer . Now interstingly Bha ullah does a little
modern twist to this . he defines dawn as the earliest stirrings of light
until two hours after sunrise. In short he also makes use of a modern sense
of time while transcending the modern separation between time and space .
Anyway here we are in Omaha and it has snowed . What is the city to do? It
will i sugggest as a civil government respond to the paterned activities of
the citizens of that city . In short the routes leading to the Houses (
plural ) of Worship in Omaha will be cleared of snow . We might even find
that this will take priority over the snow removal in commercial districts
since commerce will begin to wait on the Mashriq not the other way around .
I have suggested in the past that Baha u llah as a Prophet is both
profoundly radical and profoundly conservative . Radical in the sense of
getting to the "root of" and conservative in the sense of creating *order*.
There is not much more rooted or ordering than our sense of time and space
=END=
Date: 6 Jan 96 21:10:52 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Garbett to Talisman
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: SBirkland@aol.com, slynch@interserv.com, dan_orey@qmbridge.ccs.csus.edu
Subject: Time: 8:52 PM
OFFICE MEMO Garbett to Talisman Date: 1/6/96
Dear Friends -
One of the hardest tests I have had to deal with of recent, has been the
withdrawal from the Faith of my very dear Baha'i brother Bill Garbett. His
encouragement over the past few years is responsible for reactivating me
spiritually, I believe the following letter explains why he and many others are
withdrawing from the Faith. To say that I am broken hearted about this goes
without saying. I still hold on to what little hope left that somehow a bridge
can be built that will allow gay and lesbians to be openly welcomed in the
Faith.
I have been asked by Bill Garbett in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA to share his
thoughts with Talisman. He sends his regards, and wishes that he could be
connected via computer to the discussion here.... As a favor to both Bill and
my fellow talismanians, I share this letter with all of you with his
permission. It eloquently represents the majority of feelings and thoughts I
have received about the recent letter on homosexuality that was sent to the NSA
of the USA from the UHJ...
January 1996
Dear Dan,
I've been thinking about the copy of the letter you sent me from the Universal
House of Justice to the America NSA re: homosexuality. I felt I wouldn't
respond keeping my opinions to myself. Then I saw a copy of the latest issue of
the American Baha'i with its full page reproduction of the same letter, and I
felt I must reply.
In stating that they cannot abrogate or change any of the laws which which
are explicitly laid down in the sacred text, and that they have no authority to
change the Baha'i teachings on homosexual practice, (referring here to the
Guardian's prohibitions concerning homosexuality), the House has condemned
thousands of declared Baha'is to a life of loneliness, confusion, bitterness,
and hopelessness. How very sad, heart breaking, and terribly tragic.
Looking beyond the Baha'i community, I believe the House has in one fell
swoop, closed the door forever on millions of human beings, who although
needing Baha'u'llah's revelation, will never embrace His cause. For how could
any homosexual person embrace a religion that while claiming to be universal,
accepting the oneness, diversity, and unity of mankind, refers to a particular
segment of humanity, (gays and lesbians). as living a life that is "abnormal",
"against nature", an "affliction", and "a great burden"? No self affirming,
self-realized, proud homosexual will ever accept being referred to as abnormal,
etc. Further, they will never buy the consequence of some "deficiency either
inborn or acquired". Never will they accept being lumped together as a "part of
the problems in society such as alcoholism, drug abuse, and adultery".
Finally, I feel the most damnable and frightening paragraph is contained in the
end of the letter. The House states, "with regard to the organized network of
homosexual Baha'is mentioned in your letter ....while there is an appropriate
role in the Baha'i community for groups of individuals to come together to help
each other to understand and to deal with certain problem situations, according
to the Baha'i teachings, there can be NO PLACE IN OUR COMMUNITY for groups
which actually promote a STYLE OF LIFE that is contrary to the teachings of the
cause". "It should be understood that the homosexual tendencies of some
individuals DO NOT ENTITLE THEM TO AN IDENTITY setting them apart from others."
The mind reels at such a blatantly prejudicial statement. The House has
relegated an entire population of sane, loving people to the realm of
nonexistence. I can only think of the many examples through-out history when
so-called "righteous" groups would purge from their communities those they felt
were "different" and worthy of extinction.
Bill Garbett
5765 Wigwam Ave.
Las Vegas, NV 89139 USA
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 96 14:19:53 PST
Subject: RE: "A Modest Proposal" - Please Post It!
To: "Talisman@indiana.edu" , Sadra ,
"Cary E. Reinstein"
me ditto
On Sat, 6 Jan 1996 08:27:24 -0800 Cary E. Reinstein wrote:
>Please include me in this. I'd like to receive it offline if that's
the most
>prudent method. I've had absolutely no clue as to what this
discussion has
>been all about. Now I'm very curious about it.
>
>thanks
>
>
>Dear Steven, David, Chris, Tony, Payam and others who were involved
with the
>
>Dialogue Affair--
>
>Over the past year "A Modest Proposal" has been referred to quite a
few
>times but many of us here on Talisman haven't actually seen this
>momentous -- or ominous, whatever your inclination is -- document.
>Would it at all be possible to post it, or is there some kind of
>outstanding official institutional ban on disclosing its contents?
>
> I hope this doesn't sound presumptuous of me, but this humble
servant says
>
>let the faithful electorate (or list in our case) make up it's own
mind
>on "A Modest Proposal." If posting it on Talisman is going to prove
too
>politically explosive an issue, I'd still personally like to see it
in
>order to set my own mind at ease, so would sure appreciate it if
someone
>would be kind enough to send me a copy privately (snail or e-mail,
>doesn't matter!).
>
>Regrads,
>Nima
>
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/06/96
Time: 14:19:54
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 96 13:33:24 PST
Subject: RE: metaphors & dangerous insiduous lukwarm people.
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Gordon McFarlane
On Fri, 05 Jan 1996 18:25:56 -0700 Gordon McFarlane wrote:
. Our worldview, political and religious
>institutions, social structures, language, and values are shaped by
>metaphor - and often metaphors which are "anachronistic" - The
concentric
>spheres of Aristotle, the great chain of being, the clockwork
universe,
>cultural relativism, deconstructionism are all are all based on
metaphors
>derived from the scientifc and in vogue thinking of the day.
Couldn't agree more. Metaphors are that by which we live and die and
probably the closest we come to "knowing" God. There is a lot of
semiotic theory on how prayer is a two way metaphor, in the sense of
:The eye by which I see God is the eye by which God sees me.
And I think St. Augustine, who some say started the thinking of the
scholastic tradition on the meaning of the "sign," started his first
thinking in terms of prayer.
I'm sure that the metaphors of the writings reach into places in the
soul the laws cannot go.
I would have more of them. I think that is why I've always been so
fond of Christianity. I love the story of Easter and the Passion. I
love how they have been mythologized. (Myth being a special case of
Metaphor).
I suspect that our historians have a difficult job because the Faith
will eventually live as much by the story of the lives of the Twin
Manifestations as by the specific writings. How to allow the
mystical (which is also the metaphorical) resound while also writing
"scientific" history. I bet that's a tough problem for the one's who
do it.
The metaphors
>used in the Baha'i Writings are beautiful, and rich with meaning.
The first several lessons of a cross-cultural course my wife
and I
>developed deal with the role of metaphor in establishing cultural
coherence.
>Some of the discussions that take place in those classes, among
students who
>have never before questioned the source of the values they had grown
up with
>are quite exciting. I would really enjoy reading comments by other
members
>of Talisman on the subject.
Gordon, I'm teaching an introductory course on principles of
communication and I'd love to do a unit similar to the one you've
described, Could you send me more on what you are doing?
I'd be particularly interested in any experiential designs for
cooperative classroom activity that would open the door for students
onto how metaphors shape their thinking. Also, what sorts of stimulus
you use, what kinds of questions are you asking them. Anything,
help.
Thanks so much.
> "Metaphors We Live By" by Lakoff and Johnson is a good
introductory
>book on the subject.
Who publishes this? Is it a text book?
My favorite books on metaphor are by Gregory Bateson. The
introduction to "Mind and Nature" is a particularly wonderful essay
of the position of metaphor in Life and in all biology!
>
> As for those those unidentified "dangerous, insidious,
lukewarm
>people inside the Faith who have no real attachment to the Covenant
and
>uphold the intellectual aspect of the teachings while undermining
the
>spiritual foundation upon which the whole Cause of God rests", I
would
>suggest that such folks are also "lukewarm intellectuals" -
When I read this, I thought, that's me. Although I do have a
masochistic streak, and tend to take in lots of different kinds of
criticism, I do know that I do have difficulty with the committment
being asked of me in this speech, in this Faith.
The phrase reminds me of something from C.L. Lewis in Screwtape
letters. Remember those are a series of letters from a high level
devil to an apprentice devil named "Screwtape," and in these letters
the high level voice is instructing Screwtape how to derail the faith
of a believers. And an important piece of advice was to lead the
would-be believer into a kind of dilettantism -- a dilettante being
someone who takes an interest in a subject merely as a pastime. "
Lead him to be a connoseur of many religions" was the advice, " and
in that way, he'll be immune to the deeper call to the heart. "
So I do believe that, unless I'm careful, I will use my education to
protect me from God and Life.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/06/96
Time: 13:33:24
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
[end of 1/6/96 session]
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 02:02:12 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: amendments to list rules
Dear talismanians ,
I would like to second Juans proposal for an addition of a staement of
purpose for Talisman . It may be uncany but the reason Juan mentions: " I
suggest is inquiry into the meaning of the Bahai Faith and into its
implications for our understanding of modernity /postmodernity, for resolving
its problems ; and into the implications of modern and postmodern thought and
society for the development of the Bahai Faith. "
This is why I joined and have remained on Talisman for the past 14 months .
if we could somehow formalize this as Juan suggests I would be thrilled . At
our LSA meeting today we discussed Talisman and the impact it has had on our
self understanding as Bahais ; the empowering effect on a group of ordinary
believers in this city . The net effect being the level of unity is higher,
there is more teaching work and we are trying understand and explain the
Faith to others as a response to modernity. It has also allowed us to
acknowledge our fears and our hopes and joys to one another . We had an
interchange in the LSA today that was fairly passionate , not an all together
infrequent occurrance. The newest member of the LSA just filled a by
-election vacancy did not know what to expect. But there was no name calling
, no bitterness , no attempt to win points or outshout the other . Just a
passionate and deep felt perception on an issue . Our new member was
impressed and one of the most conservative members pointed out that this
tolerance and openness and respect - was what terry has brought us from a
study group callled Talisman . So friends it can and is making a difference .
If we can can become even more positively focused on a theme as Juan suggests
really the sky is the limit . Lets do it .! !
I am not sure how to assist but am willing and I know a community that
would be thrilled by an electronic magazine and would be willing to help with
its preparation disrtibution etc. . Let us know .
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 02:23:39 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: metaphors & dangerous ins...
Dear Phillip ,
Loved your response to Gordon . I dont know if you were on Talisman last
spring when we had some discusssions along those lines . At the time I
posted some things on Dawnbreakers and myth called "The Road to Shiraz." I
am working on a piece now , a sequel if you will called " An Exile In
Paradise " . This rummaging around the inside and other side of metaphor has
its own rhythum but I will let you know when its presentable. It has to do
with Baha u llah, and by extension us, and centers around two realities as
metaphors and the metaphor becoming reality - the Siiyah Chal and Ridvan .
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 00:57:02 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: amendments to list rules
I too would like to second Juan's suggestion for a Talisman statement of
purpose and electronic magazine.
Nima
=END=
Talisman emails received 1/7/96
---------------------------------------------------------
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 07:58:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: diff. of lifeworlds
I think Juan's post this morning was right to the point, as were many of
Jim's and Michael's comments.
I see things like the "Dialogue affair" as tests, both for the individuals
and institutions involved. All of us are growing, and getting through
trials like this are part of that growth.
I too experienced an administrative Waterloo, although only at the local
level. I won't go into excruciating detail, but basically what happened
was this:
I was going through some personal confusion in the mid-70's, and felt
I needed to be "inactive" for awhile. The LSA of the nearest town sent
a representative to see me, who told me I had to withdraw from the Faith.
Note: no consultation, no removal of administrative rights, just "You
cannot be a Baha'i." So, in obedience, I withdrew.
It took several years of "home deepening" to: a) resolve my personal issues
in a way that harmonized with the Baha'i teachings, b) realize that the
LSA was wrong (never mind that they were operating outside their
jurisdiction) and that I had a right to appeal, and c) gather the courage
to re-enroll (in a community far removed from that which had excised me
from the Faith).
Now, the point of all this rambling is that I got over it, and it made me
stronger. I think that when we dwell on a past injustice (or other trauma)
it can paralyze us and leave us spiritually crippled. We have to learn
to transcend the pain and move on, or the edges of that pain will become
the boundaries of our lives.
~rYes, our institutions are immature. _We_ are immature. But the UHJ's
preliminary plan, if read carefully and with an open heart, seems to
address much of what we Talismaniacs have been complaining about.
The requirement that "local and national Baha'i institutions evolve more
rapidly into a proper exercise of their responsibilities as channels of
guidance, planners of the teaching work, developers of human resources,
builders of communities, and loving shepherds of the multitudes" and the
decision to increase the number of Aux Board members to assist in
"spiritual nurturing of individual believers," etc. are, IMHO, particularly
heartening.
I applaud those on this list who are already focusing on how to help.
Leigh
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:27:39 +1200
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 7: "any agency whatever...is capable of misuse.."
Talismans,
Onwards we press...with what is not a "slow read"...but
something else...
If you can't read this now why not simply save it for a later date..?
This is a long chunk. I draw your attention to the final two paragraphs
particularly. The need for "unified public opinion" and " zeal and
resolve and devotion in the country's leaders" are upheld as the key
conditions of progress. What does this signify if we say that Talisman is
a "country"? Do we not sometimes make a virtue of disunity... under the
pretext of encouraging diversity... and language games..?
The devil always reaches us by way of our blind spot... the spot we
ignore...the region of our "kingdom" that is unjustly marginalised...
Robert.
SDC 7.
O people of Persia! How long will you wander? How long must your
confusion last? How long will it go on, this conflict of opinions, this
useless antagonism, this ignorance, this refusal to think? Others are
alert, and we sleep our dreamless sleep. Other nations are +P13
making every effort to improve their condition; we are trapped in our
desires and self-indulgences, and at every step we stumble into a new
snare.
God is Our witness that We have no ulterior motive in developing
this theme. We seek neither to curry favor with any one nor to attract
any one to Ourselves nor to derive any material benefit therefrom. We
speak only as one earnestly desiring the good pleasure of God, for We have
turned Our gaze away from the world and its peoples and have sought refuge
in the sheltering care of the Lord. "No pay do I ask of you for this...
My reward is of God alone."+ (Qur'an 6:90; 11:31. )
Those who maintain that these modern concepts apply only to other
countries and are irrelevant in Iran, that they do not satisfy her
requirements or suit her way of life, disregard the fact that other
nations were once as we are now. Did not these new systems and
procedures, these progressive enterprises, contribute to the advancement
of those countries? Were the people of Europe harmed by the adoption of
such measures? Or did they rather by these means reach the highest
degree of material development? Is it not true that for centuries, the
people of Persia have lived as we see them living today, carrying out the
pattern of the past? Have any discernible benefits resulted, has any
progress been made? If these things had not been tested by experience,
some in whose minds the light of native intelligence is clouded, might
idly question them. On +P14 the contrary, however, every aspect of
these prerequisites to progress have in other countries been time and
again put to the test, and their benefits demonstrated so plainly that
even the dullest mind can grasp them.
Let us consider this justly and without bias: let us ask
ourselves which one of these basic principles and sound, well-established
procedures would fail to satisfy our present needs, or would be
incompatible with Persia's best political interests or injurious to the
general welfare of her people. Would the extension of education, the
development of useful arts and sciences, the promotion of industry and
technology, be harmful things? For such endeavor lifts the individual
within the mass and raises him out of the depths of ignorance to the
highest reaches of knowledge and human excellence. Would the setting up
of just legislation, in accord with the Divine laws which guarantee the
happiness of society and protect the rights of all mankind and are an
impregnable proof against assault--would such laws, insuring the integrity
of the members of society and their equality before the law, inhibit their
prosperity and success?
Or if by using one's perceptive faculties, one can draw analogies
from present circumstances and the conclusions arrived at by collective
experience, and can envisage as coming realities situations now only
potential, would it be unreasonable to take such present measures as
would guarantee our future security? Would it seem shortsighted,
improvident and unsound, +P15 would it constitute a deviation from what
is right and proper, if we were to strengthen our relationships with
neighboring countries, enter into binding treaties with the great powers,
foster friendly connections with well-disposed governments, look to the
expansion of trade with the nations of East and West, develop our natural
resources and increase the wealth of our people? Would it spell
perdition for our subjects if the provincial and district governors were
relieved of their present absolute authority, whereby they function
exactly as they please, and were instead limited to equity and truth, and
if their sentences involving capital punishment, imprisonment and the like
were contingent on confirmation by the Shah and by higher courts in the
capital, who would first duly investigate the case and determine the
nature and seriousness of the crime, and then hand down a just decision
subject to the issuance of a decree by the sovereign? If bribery and
corruption, known today by the pleasant names of gifts and favors, were
forever excluded, would this threaten the foundations of justice? Would
it be an evidence of unsound thinking to deliver the soldiery, who are a
living sacrifice to the state and the people and brave death at every
turn, from their present extreme misery and indigence, and to make
adequate arrangements for their sustenance, clothing and housing, and
exert every effort to instruct their officers in military science, and
supply them with the most advanced types of firearms and other weapons?
+P16
Should anyone object that the above-mentioned reforms have never
yet been fully effected, he should consider the matter impartially and
know that these deficiencies have resulted from the total absence of a
unified public opinion, and the lack of zeal and resolve and devotion in
the country's leaders. It is obvious that not until the people are
educated, not until public opinion is rightly focused, not until
government officials, even minor ones, are free from even the least
remnant of corruption, can the country be properly administered. Not
until discipline, order and good government reach the degree where an
individual, even if he should put forth his utmost efforts to do so, would
still find himself unable to deviate by so much as a hair's breadth from
righteousness, can the desired reforms be regarded as fully established.
Furthermore, any agency whatever, though it be the instrument of
mankind's greatest good, is capable of misuse. Its proper use or abuse
depends on the varying degrees of enlightenment, capacity, faith, honesty,
devotion and highmindedness of the leaders of public opinion.
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 03:36:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: Word play -- funny fiction
Dear Talismanians:
I have refrained from crossposting from my humor mailing list to
Talisman, until now. This exchange-- "....please distinguish between
voracity and veracity! I also rather enjoyed the recent reference to the
'48 contagious states.' Oops-- hope this isn't construed as an ad homonym
attack...." --forces me to contribute with the following. It is a brief
work found in the magazine New Yorker a few years ago. Enjoy!
"How I Met My Wife"
by Jack Winter (no relation, BTW)
It had been a rough day, so when I walked into the party I was very
chalant, despite my efforts to appear gruntled and consolate.
I was furling my wieldly umbrella for the coat check when I saw her
standing alone in a corner. She was a descript person, a woman in a state
of total array. Her hair was kempt, her clothing shevelled, and she moved
in a gainly way.
I wanted desperately to meet her but I knew I'd have to make bones about
it, since I was traveling cognito. Beknownst to me, the hostess, whom I
could see both hide and hair of, was very proper, so it would be skin of
my nose if anything bad happened. And even though I had only swerving
loyalty to her, my manners couldn't be peccable. Only toward and heard-of
behavior would do.
Fortunately, the embarrassment that my maculate appearance might cause
was evitable. There *were* two ways about it, but the chances that
someone as flappable as I would be ept enough to become persona grata or
a sung hero were slim. I was, after all, something to sneeze at, someone
you could easily hold a candle to, someone who usually aroused bridled
passion.
So I decided not to risk it. But then, all at once, for some apparent
reason, she looked in my direction and smiled in a way that I could make
heads or tails of.
I was plussed. It was concerting to see that she was communicado, and it
nerved me that she was interested in a pareil like me, sight seen.
Normally, I had a domitable spirit, but being corrigible, I felt
capacitated--as if this were something I was great shakes at--and forgot
that I had succeeded in situations like this only a told number of times.
So, after a terminable delay, I acted with mitigated gall and made my way
through the ruly crowd with strong givings.
Nevertheless, since this was all new hat to me and I had no time to
prepare a promptu speech I was petuous. Wanting to make only called-for
remarks, I started talking about the hors d'oeuvres, trying to abuse her
of the notion that I was sipid, and perhaps even bunk a few myths about
myself.
She responded well, and I was mayed that she considered me a savory
character who was up to some good, She told me who she was. "What a
perfect nomer," I said, advertently. The conversation became more and
more choate, and we spoke at length to much avail. But I was defatigable,
so I had to leave at a godly hour. I asked if she wanted to come with me.
To my delight, she was committal. We left the party together, and have
been together ever since. I have given her my love, and she has requited it.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
Date: 07 Jan 96 03:43:35 EST
From: Steven Scholl <73613.2712@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: Re: Talkin bout Jim's Reformation
Dear Jim,
To be honest, I mistrust the sound of your "cure all" but would love to hear
more. My concern is that there is a sweet and simple solution to the rut we have
dug (Phrases like "Unity of Vision" don't mean much to me, pal, within the
current mypoic minmdset you eloquently acknowledge). I believe in solutions and
believe they need to be pragmatic. If your strip away all the hot rhetoric on
talisman, you have a small number of folks who are seeking to brainstorm to
generate ideas that may have application to real world problems. Obviously
Talisman is not the place for real reform, that must take place in the trenches.
So, it seems to me that you must sooner or later offer us something we can
discuss some how some way or it just becomes more talk talk talk talk talk.
The main thrust of the Talisman Left is quite simple and has three main points:
(1) an open community must emerge and that maturity requires allowing for true
diversity to bloom within our midst. This requires implementing those freedoms
cherished by the Master but withheld during the embryonic stages of community
growth under the Guardian (viz. free speech, free press, and a more open
administrative style). (2) Spiritual revitilization requires the development of
a community that is more deeply connected to the revelation. We are the only
religion I know of that ignores spiritual practices and runs its affairs without
recourse to effective ritual and devotional use of music, art, dance, poetry.
(3) We must continue along the positive path (first clamored for by the LA Study
Class and eventually adopted by the House of Justice) in being more active in
social affairs.
This is terribly simplified but for me is at the heart of effectively dealing
with reform. I have seen how the simple raising of these three issues in a
community changes everything. If an LSA gives permission for there to be unity
in diversity, promotes new forms of devotion, and the Baha'is work for race
unity or for the homeless suddenly people open up. It is rare but it happens.
Baha'is are dying for connection and community and the Baha'i world is for the
most part made up of isolated believers. In a few places Baha'i community
exists, but that is the rarity. Progress is being made. I believe that most
Baha'is have an intuitive knowledge of where we need to go and it revolves
around these core issues.
In any event, I eagerly await hearing more on what you are hinting at. Perhaps
on my next trip to Portland we can sit down over a cup of tea at Powell's and
talk amidst the psycho-babble. I do hope you can make it to Bosch for the Conf.
on Mysticism? That should be fun.
Yours in anticipation,
Steve Scholl
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 00:29:31 -0800
Message-Id: <960107002930_21852941@hp1.online.apple.com>
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismans,
>>I too would like to second Juan's suggestion for a Talisman >>statement of
>>purpose and electronic magazine.
>>Nima
Me too. And will help where possible.
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 01:39 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Juan's Train
Juan has raised interesting suggestions regarding the resurrection
shuffle with the Dialog affair -- you can't always get closure by reopening
wounds and too much introspection often reveals we are more shallow than
the limitless ocean of the Revelation we want as our own.
The suggestion of doing Talisman as a digest to which one subscribes makes
it more a magazine and less an ongoing conversation between e-mailing
individuals. I "guess" this is what Juan is up to with his suggestion:
transform a private multi-participant conversation into an Electronic
Magazine with a subscriber base. Tah-Dah!
Now -- does every issue of this Magazine to which folks can subscribe needs
be submitted for review before electronic publication? That, of course, is
the bait for the switch. Sure...Mr. Walbridge could have columnists (I'll do
pop culture and satire, Derek will do cat cartoons and book reviews, Linda
will do wildlife adventures, Juan will do historical mysteries, Sen&family
will do arts and crafts, Jim will do spiritual destiny devinations, Tony
will do anger management, Mark Foster will help us understand why we can't
understand each other, Terry can do community development and recipes, in
fact, each subscriber can have their published say and poor Robert Stockman
can review each and every issue of Talisman Magazine.)
Do you really want to do this to Rob?
I don't think that's the idea...but you see where the suggestion leads --
conceptual showdown at the theoretical corral -- when is a digest a
publication and when is a digest subject to review?
It could be a *very* gradual conceptual shift -- if Linda's solid phlegmatic
spouse offered a digest option by request as a matter of convenience to a
limited number of "special needs" cases as a matter of electronic courtesy
-- sort of the cyberspace equivelent of handicapped parking spots -- and
kept the e-mail base as the conversation itself, then should review be an
issue, it would be the digest that would be nuked issue, not the e-list
conversation. I know this sounds weird, but I think this is exactly the
train ride in Juan's fantasy park -- pushing that send button could be
pushing the envelope. Am I correct Prof?
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 02:51:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: How to make Talisman effective in the community
Dear talizens-
Pursuant to Juan's suggestions, I have one of my own which stems from a
conversation Chris Buck, Terry, Saman, Mark Foster and myself had at Austin
last November. I propose that Talisman be made into an official, but
_fully independently functioning_, "Think-Tank" organization -- ala 'Rand
Corporation' et al -- to the Baha'i Institutions. This would move the
focus of our list from what has been characterized by certain elements
as a 'group of whining liberals' or 'anti-administration dissidents' to
one that is willing to brain-storm policies together with the
Institutions themselves. Personally, I believe this would be one
positive, however marginal, step in the right direction towards the
democratization process of Baha'i community praxis.
Nima
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
Reply-To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Blessings
All -
The following appeared on alt.quotations
================================fwd==================================
Subject: blessings from different spiritual traditions
From: C. Kitts,ckitts@oboe.calpoly.edu,Internet
To: alt.quotations
I'm gathering a database of blessings/holy sayings/mantras from as many
spiritual traditions/religions as possible. Any sort of blessing is
appropriate. If interested, would you please provide the following:
1. the untranslated blessing, spelled out as accurately as possible, with
explanation of pronunciation (accents and diacritics as possible)
2. the meaning of the blessing in English
3. the religion/spiritual tradition from which the blessing comes
4. the country from which the blessing comes
5. the language in which the untranslated blessing is written
======================end=============================
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 17:00:52+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
subscribe please
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Infallibility
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 08:42:58 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
Since the subject of the infallibility of the House of Justice has
come up again, I wanted to clarify my views beyond what I have said in
my posts to Sen and Paul. I hinted a bit at how I see this issue, but I
started to get tired and began contemplating going back to work Monday
for a three-day extravaganza which, according to the brochure, is an
"Intercultural Master Professor Retreat" (in central Missouri), so I
kept my responses relatively short. BTW, I have no idea what this event
will entail (hopefully no written tests ), but I, perhaps foolishly,
signed up for it, so I will have to wait and see. ;-) Classes don't
actually start until a week from tomorrow. Meanwhile, I can now look
forward to Talisman's newly conceived ezine, which I hope will turn into
something worthwhile.
The late Hand of the Cause, William Sears, was fond of quoting the
passage which said that the Universal House of Justice was *the source*
*of all good and freed from all error*. IMHO, that statement sums up the
nature of the infallibility of the House. Personally, I do not think
that it has anything directly to do with information (factual accuracy).
The House, like the beloved Guardian, is, from my POV, not omniscient
and relies on available avenues of information.
Notions of propositional correctness vs. incorrectness characterize
the rational world - in which truth and error appear to the individual
as opposite conditions. However, from a God's-eye viewpoint (seeing with
the eye of God's revealed truth in the Valley of *Unity*), all that can
be seen is the Light of God. IOW, error (evil) is not perceived as an
independent reality but as an absence of enLIGHTenment.
Therefore, as I conceive of it, the House of Justice, within the
framework of its legitimate instrumental power (or rational-legal
authority), determined through its thorough study of the texts, offers
to humanity the prospect of divine guidance which, if followed, will
unerringly lead us to the KING's DOMinion (Kingdom) on earth of unity,
justice, and truth.
Truth is a multi-sided crystal. Thinking of it in terms of good and
bad, or accuracy and inaccuracy, is not, IMHO, the reality of truth or
infallibility. The point is that we need to follow the House's guidance
even where we think, according to our own intellects, that it might be
incorrect (a rational judgment) or that the Supreme Body is not quite
mature. Besides, who can say what blessings might result from following
any decision? Only God knows the outcome of an act of unconditional
obedience or the result of responding, with radiant acquiescence, to an
individual or collective test (decreed fate) triggered by one of the
House's decisions.
If the House changes its decision to be more factually correct, does
that mean that following it will be more productive of truth, unity, and
justice than if one had followed the original decision? Now, I am do not
mean to imply that we should not provide the Supreme Body with relevant
information, but we have no way of knowing the consequences of obedience
unless we do it. IOW, I think that part of the difficulty which some
souls may have is in mentally over-analyzing the House's decisions
rather than just accepting them and trusting in Baha'u'llah for the
results.
Didn't one of the first messages sent out by the House, assuring the
believers of the continuity of Baha'u'llah's Covenant after the loss of
the Guardian, state it had all the authority it needed to guide the
world to the Golden Age? To me, that is what the House's infallibility
entails. They will take us to the World Order of Baha'u'llah. Focusing
on the literalness of the House's rulings, as I have sometimes seen in
some postings, is, IMO, beside the point.
The infallibility of the House (an knowledge which would prevent
errors in guidance) can only be discovered, IMHO, by falling in love the
Supreme Body. The seeker must encounter love before she or he discovers
knowledge. IOW, we can only know that which we link with (or love). To
link with the House means, at least in part, to trust it and to believe
that the divine system which it heads offers the only hope for a
spiritually ill planet.
With loving greetings,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 10:56:54 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: e-mail journal
Honored members:
There are, as I understand it, two proposals on the table:
(1) a mission statement for Talisman;
(2) a sort of electronic magazine based on Talisman.
(1) I am not particularly receptive to. Talisman was set up as an
unmoderated forum to allow people interested in the Baha'i Faith to talk
to each other about things intellectual. For my purposes, that is a
sufficient mission statement.
(2) sounds like a very interesting idea. I would be delighted for
Talisman to be used for such purposes.
I have actually thought about complicating Talisman, perhaps by making
sublists for various purposes: posting texts, administrative issues,
queries, surrealism (Burl and Co.), digests, etc. Suggestions are
welcome. To implement anything complicated, I would need some ongoing
help, however.
The honored participants sometimes ask for prayers. Kindly remember
Linda and me in yours over the next day or so. We are snowbound with
five teenagers, including two sexes, two articifical hair colors, and
five veracious appetites.
John Walbridge
List Owner
=END=
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 96 08:47:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: help
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I have drafted a loving and respectful letter to the US NSA asking
about the policy of "The American Baha'i" in regard to printing of
talks by individuals. The heart of my argument surrounds the fact
that in the recent issue they printed a talk by Dr. Peter Khan (whom I
profoundly love and owe him more gratitude than I can ever repay in
several life times), a talk by an *individual*, in *three* languages,
in full.
Going through 2 years of "The American Baha'i" that I've kept, I found
no instance where a letter *from the Universal House of Justice* was
printed in 3 languages. For example, I don't see May 1994 letter of
the House of Justice printed in 3 languages -- in fact, I don't
remember ever seeing it in Persian or Spanish!
In this drafted letter, I've respectfully asked for clarification for
publishing policy that seems to exalt an individual over the Supreme
Body! (or any other institution of the Faith).
No matter who that individual may be or how profound his thoughts are
or how deeply we happen to love that person, I have problem with such
an editorial policy and like to share my concern with my National
Spiritual Assembly -- which as a believer I am duty bound to do.
Since my collection of the American Baha'is is not very complete and I
like to make a statement like "during the past 5 years no letter of
the House been published in 3 languages....", then I'm turning to you
for help. If you have kept such a collection, would you be interested
to do a quick search through for the past 5 years and email me
privately if there is *any* instance where a letter of the House (or
any other institution) was simultaneously printed in 3 languages?
I'm very grateful for your help.
FYI, in the drafted letter, I explain that I share our NSA's
admiration with Dr. Khan's talk (which they had previously sent to all
Baha'i communities in the US via audio tape), and am sure that the
reason so much space was devoted to this talk was solely because of
the available space, but it does send a message to our community that
individual thoughts matter more than the pronoucements of the House of
Justice, which I'm sure was not intended.
lovingly, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 12:39:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: *Interact* e-zine
Since there have been a number of positive responses to my tentative
suggestion that we add to Talisman's richness with an occasional posting
of comments in the form of an electronic digest, I am willing to pursue it.
I am going to call it *Interact*, as a stage beyond dialogue and a term
in keeping with cyberspace as a medium.
The point of an e-zine would be to have more focused comments in which
people draw on their interests and expertise, and which might create
reactive threads on Talisman. The idea is for the e-zine to be interactive.
Baha'i Review does not arise as an issue, since these will be Talisman
postings by private individuals on an e-mail network, and all I will be
doing is offering them in the form of an assembled digest. Individual
responses and authors reactions will continue. I do not see what
difference it makes whether *I* forward the messages together or *Majordomo*
does it as a digest. Of course, if any authors wish to seek
prepublication Review, they may do so before submitting the message to
me. But that is their business. I am simply creating a digest of
e-mails and forwarding it.
The point of all this is to try to imbue our discussions with more of a
constructive and positive spin. I am not advocating, and it would be
hypocritcal of me to advocate, that we avoid critiquing the conditions of
our collective existence when that is felt necessary. But the over-all
thrust should be toward building something new, building something up.
I am seeking short, pithy but substantive columns of about 300-600 words
(one or two doublespaced typescript pages). For longer pieces,
serialization is a possibility. These should, on the model of
*The Nation* or *New Left Review* have an orientation toward current affairs
or matters of theory or progressive views of history. These may 1) report
non-Baha'i news relevant to our Talisman discussions; 2) offer comment and
critique of some aspect of current modernity or postmodernity; 3) report
Baha'i news relevant to our discussions; 4) offer commentary or constructive
critique
of the current conditions of our Baha'i existence; 5) or take the form of
book reviews or reports of relevant magazine or journal articles.
I need alternating columnists in at least the following categories:
1. religion, religious dialogue, mysticism and ecumenism
2. human rights
3. socio-economic affairs (labor, liberation theology, etc.)
4. Gender, feminism, sexuality
5. race, ethnicity and multiculturalism
6. Middle East and Persian Affairs
7. ecology and Green issues
8. United Nations, globalism, war; and peace movements
9. Baha'i thought and history
10. Baha'i community affairs
11. Teaching the Faith (Baha'i missiology)
12. Book reviews
(not all have to appear in each issue).
Columns should be short essays, with a clear point of view and an
important or even provocative point to make, such as might start a thread.
The author should be careful to check facts and preferably should have done
a lot of reading in or have some expertise in the area reported upon.
Ripostes on Talisman can properly come in the form of an opinion stated
with no special knowledge, but the columnist who initiates the thread
should be knowledgeable in her field.
I will not act as an editor, but simply will make a digest of the
submissions that I like and will forward them to Talisman periodically.
Any submission that I reject can after all be posted to Talisman anyway.
Some submissions may be suitable for reprinting (or expanding and
reprinting) on paper with ink, and authors are free to pursue such venues.
Volunteers?
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 12:44:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: JMSwtlk@aol.com
Cc: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu, Augustine0@aol.com,
jwalbrid@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: e-mail journal
For the moment, I am not html-capable and have not put the time into
learning how to become so. I may eventually set up an *Interact* home
page on the Web. In the meantime, I intend to post *Interact* as a
digest; anyone who wishes to put it up on the Web would be welcome to do
so, as long as by-lines are kept and no changes are introduced.
cheers Juan
=END=
From: JMSwtlk@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 12:31:52 -0500
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Cc: Augustine0@aol.com, jwalbrid@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: e-mail journal
Hello, again, from a newcomer, but "ooolllldddd" Baha'i. There'll be
an introduction later after I change my mailing address.
In the meantime, I perceive some growing interest that is compatible
with my humble opinions and that is "constructive" in nature. Now is
the time and wide is the field, folks.
In e-mail journal, jwalbrid@indiana.edu (jwalbrid) wrote:
There are, as I understand it, two proposals on the table:
(1) a mission statement for Talisman;
(2) a sort of electronic magazine based on Talisman.
(1) I am not particularly receptive to. Talisman was set up as an
Actually if you follow some approach, like discussed below, you could
have a "manifesto" that adjusts by contexts, times, players, etc.
(2) sounds like a very interesting idea. I would be delighted for
Talisman to be used for such purposes.
In Baha'i and the Individual, Augustine0@aol.com wrote,
Well, what is wrong with providing something via the Web? The main
expense would be the host time/space. Otherwise, maintenance of
the page contents could be shared between several individuals. If
this has already been done, I would like to know the URL.
What he meant (he tells me (:-)) is that e-mail is difficult for several
reasons. With the emerging ability to make these digibits available upon
demand, versus blasting things around, then one can provide ways to
organize, archive, index, and so forth. He was referring to using HTML,
for instance. There are other options of News or some archived mail
facility that is HTTP (or similar means) supported.
Now, I've seen mention of subscribers (does that imply fee?) in one
of the recent posting. Why not start small and gradually get more
sophisticated? For instance, there could be a non-frills beginning
with HTML and using pre-fixed formats. The look would be no more
worse than what one gets with e-mail. However, there would be more
order for trying to see what that plethora of bits means. It may be that
the more active forum would always be more like this.
Then, more permanent (reviewed, "refereed") articles would have
a slicker look. As one would expect with electronic Journals. ACM
is starting one this year, as an example. Actually, there could be
several varieties of presentations. The idea is really exciting, IMHO.
However, it goes, I, despite my grey hairs, would be happy to offer
some time. Actually, I would even offer to host some pages (meaning
that they could be distributed around). There would be a space limit,
3-20MB, perhaps. Of course, that's a mere drop in the bucket.
Now, as you know, there will be issues of browser/reader capability
and compatibility; that is one reason to proceed with the more simple
for starters. However, given that this group probably has access to
some fairly capable people and equipment, I may be wrong in my
estimate of how long it would take to bootstrap yourselves. So I
hope my offer above of resources doesn't offend anyone. You see,
at work, I have access to the latest technology. But, as one would
think is ethical, I would not consider hosting Baha'i activity on such
media (nor would I be allowed). It always amazes me what type of
activity governmental organizations implicitly support. When this is
more apparent watch out for the costs of these activities to rise.
About the "manifesto" idea, I'll second Augustine's idea. His note also
included this:
I would like to propose a "virtual Vienna
Circle." What? Several things are involved here, but somehow there
needs to be put forth a reasonable, consistent presentation in
several arenas, ...
The VC allusion is supposed to be just that. Nowadays, people do not
need to collect at the same space/time locus in order to create a "real"
entity. What some are talking about in terms of a "mission" could be
handled by a "manifesto" it is believed. But, it would go further, in that
there needs to be somewhere, somehow, accomplished a statement of
how the Baha'i professional views some of the more hotly debated
aspects of the philosophy of science. These statements would be explicit
of the fact that opinions can, and do, differ.
I think that Carnap would love it.
cheers,
jmswitlik
=END=
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 12:32:09 -0600 (CST)
From: ARINDAM GHOSH
Subject: Re: Entry by Troops
To: atirandaz@medinfo.dom.uab.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
The "heart to heart" process was definitely eminently successfull in
Houston. But IMHO we lost out in the next stage. I know the process is
still being vigorously pursued in Woodlands and Sugerland. Do we now
have a systematic set of 5/6 presentations that can be used to deepen
the new-believers. Otherwise I would suggest that we developin conjunction
with the Auxiliary Board Members such modules.
The two-tier declaration and enrollment procedure has interesting parallels
with the early spread of the faith in Britain as documented on the new
book on Ethel Rosenberg. It's funny how the same debates surface over and
over again.
Also it's intersting to me that the House distinguishes between "deepening"
and "consolidation". To me "deepening" means gaining more knowledge about
the faith, while "consolidation" means the identification of the new believer
with the faith. Any comments.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 19:59:32 +0100
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Peter Loehndorf
Subject: Search of quotation
Hi everybody,
can anybody help me in finding a quotation, a part of which is cited in Ruth
J. Moffet, New Keys to the Book of Revelation, p. 104.
*A few days the earth will roll on its axis and these fleeting visions will
be completely forgotten. (Abdul'Baha in Egypt in 1913)* _obviously Ahmad
Sohrab, Abdu'l-Bah=E1 in Egypt_
The entire quotation is from *Star of the West* (that's for sure!).
Many thanks in advance!
Cordial greetings:
Peter
Fax +49-2803-8209
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 14:15:59 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: changing Talisman
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I don't like the idea at all of setting up Talisman subsets. The joy of
Talisman is reading about the Abha Kingdom being established in Omaha, followed
by an insult by Jim (no, I am not predictable!), followed by delightful
true-life adventure stories of Sherman, followed by political analyses of
Baha'u'llah's messages, followed by one of Quanta's poems, and then all
the day's postings satirized by Burl. If we are reading only the "gripe
Baha'i" list, then we won't know about Jean in Misery, Indiana chasing Derek
around the country and we won't necessarily have poetry. Would there be a
separate listing for tirades against one another? I think this would not be
much fun.
Juan, I noticed that in your list of articles for the Talisman mag you left out
John's and my article about men's status in Baha'i law. Was this just an
oversight?
And where is Derek? I e-mailed him A VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE and it bounced
because his mailbox is full. Linda
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 15:34:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: insidious lukewarm people (fwd)
Peter graciously gave me permission to post the following
contextualization of the Guardian's remark about German Baha'is who were
wedded only to the intellectual aspects of the faith while undermining
its spiritual and administrative side; these were apparently
Abdu'l-Baha-era believers who never entirely came to terms with the
Guardianship. Why anyone should think the beloved Guardian's remark
a propos 50 years later of an American community strongly shaped by the
Administration I cannot fathom.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 04:55:49 +0100
From: Peter Loehndorf
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: Sen.Mcglinn@RL.RULIMBURG.NL
Subject: Re: insidious lukewarm people
Juan,
just out of my memory without beeing able to go to deep into the material
tonight: There had been after WWar 2 some old and *merituous* LSA in
Germany, geographically centered around Stuttgart, whose members were old
people, who had lots of experience and lots of personal memories on The
Master, which seem to have felt themselves privideged to (over?) their
fellow-believers, and who *ostentatiously* (openly) persisted in doing,
what they had ever done before (the death of the Master), e. g. drinking
wine on the feast, and nobody had - in their view - the right to *regulate*
their matters (in a new way). __Those few LSA's did not care about the
Guardian, they did not openly rebell against him, but they did their
Bahai-matters, as if there was no Guardian.___
I think this attitude can be described as *lukewarm*. Keep in mindthat these
people were one and all old people with no influence at all to new
believers. They formed a kind of caste within the community. By 1960 they
must have all died.
Open rebellion against the covenant - at that time - was utterly minor in
scope, e. g. Hermann Zimmer, Waiblingen (near Stuttgart). But *open
rebellion* cannot be called *lukewarm*.
I can imagine that the Guardian was escpecially sad that these old
believers, some of whom had known the Master personally, built such a
*lukewarm* caste, which did nothing in order to rebuild the community after
WW2 and did actually more than nothing, i. e. they lukewarmly swam against
the main-stream...
At 12:24 06.01.1996 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Peter and Sen:
>
>Can either of you do some digging to discover the *precise* context of
>the Guardian's 1949 message to Germany quoted by Peter Khan in Wilmette
>referring to those who undermine the administrative and spiritual basis
>of the Faith and are committed only to its intellectual aspects? Richard
>Hollinger suggested that this referred to an actual group of German
>believers who eschewed administration. Did such a group exist? Is this
>what the Guardian is referring to?
>
>
>cheers Juan
>
>
Cordial greetings:
Peter
Fax +49-2803-8209
=END=
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 96 14:24:30
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Ahang Rabbani"
Subject: Re: Review of the Babi materials
I think we would have to ask the House of Justice, to be sure of the
reason. I'm not sure I have seen any writings of the House of Justice
or Shoghi Effendi discussing this issue. But the Guardian submitted
*The Dawnbreakers* to review, I think (maybe it was *God Passes By*)
and if it was the *Dawnbrakers,* that might establish a practice, and
maybe even a principle. My *guess* is that, as we have seen, the
Babi/Baha'i Faiths are not altogether separate religions or
dispensations. They overlap and mix intimately. Hence the Babi Faith
is, in a very real sense, part of the Baha'i Faith (yes, I know in a
very real sense it is not part of the Faith; I am referring here to
the overlap). Perhaps because of this, materials about it need
review. We would have to check with the House about the matter. Does
anyone want to write the House? If so, let me know; otherwise, I'll
write and ask in a week or two.
-- Rob Stockman
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Review of the Babi materials
Author: "Ahang Rabbani" at INTERNET
Date: 1/5/96 1:57 PM
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Could Rob Stockman or someone else please clarify why a Baha'i
needs to have his writings on the Babi Dispensation processed
through review?
If I was writing on, say, the Islam, or statistics, and it had
nothing to do with the Baha'i Faith, presumably I don't need to
go through review, so why the Babi Dispensation which we hold as
an independent religion?
And what of the Shaykhis? If I wrote a book on the life and
writings of Shaykh Ahmad or Haj Muhammad Karim Khan and wanted a
non-Baha'i publisher would I need to have it reviewed by Wilmette
first? If not, then why so on the Babi Faith?
Thank you in advance for your clarification.
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Re: Entry by Troops
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 15:34:57 -0600 (CST)
Arindam Ghosh wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
M >To me "deepening" means gaining more knowledge about the faith, while
M >"consolidation" means the identification of the new believer with the
M >faith. Any comments.
Arindam,
IMHO, consolidation is community development. It would imply
deepening but also:
1. Giving each person in the community - youths, adults, and older
Baha'i children - something to do;
2. Encouraging service projects;
3. When possible, social and economic development activities;
4. Community prayer and worship;
5. Creating a warm, spiritual atmosphere at Nineteen-Day Feasts;
6. Working for universal participation in the Funds (or UNIPAR, as
we used to say back in the 1970s );
7. Having community support for Baha'i teaching work; etc.
IOW, as I see it, consolidation is the development of the spirit of
unity in diversity among Baha'is so that all the human resources in a
community are being utilized and a spirit of love and fellowship is
generated.
Blessings,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 20:57:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: changing Talisman
I have to agree with Linda on this one. Breaking Talisman into sublists
would be like having to order beef stew a la carte-- at separate
restaurants for each item.
(Awful metaphor, I know, but I've got the stuff cooking right now...)
Leigh
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:34:34 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Talkin bout Jim's Reformation: part II
Where to start indeed. There is only one answer that I can see, that has a
chance of working.
If we use the Guaridian's analysis of our condition - which despite some of
the claims here is just as relevant today as it was when he wrote them we
have a very good beginning.
What is more we have an unassailable mandate. In our effort to bring his
vision of America's spiritual destiny to fruition we cannot be attacked, at
least not with any success. How would the forces of the status quo argue
against the Guardian? Everything we need, all the changes we wish to see lay
in his writings to America. They can be brought forth not through any tricks
of interpretation and scholarly specualtion but by simply reading the text
and surveying the reality of both our past and past performance and our
immediate conditions.
The very maturity we so desperately wish for lies potentially in the
explosion of this vision into reality. Because it is an indespensible part of
the unfoldment of the vision. Up until now too many of us have been putting
the cart before the horse. We have (as typical Americans) argued for
regulatory and legalistic changes; for constitutional conventions and
amendments. But the community is asleep. There is no growth. There is no
pressing urge. the community is as spiritually numb as the rest of the
country. And the forces that wish to keep the status quo know this. They have
been able to effectively isolate anyone pushing for real change because there
is no one there to back the pitiful challengers up. The community is in la-la
land.
And that has been our bane and it is our solution. We have to awaken the
community. And there is only one way to do that. We have to breath the
spiritual life back into them. Just as the Guardian warned us we must do
(already) way back in 1938 in Advent of Divine Justice.
>> these are the weapons which the American believers can and must wield in
their double crusade,*** first to regenerate the inward life of their own
community,*** and next to assail the long-standing evils that have entrenched
themselves in the life of their nation.
(Advent of Divine Justice, page 41)
Let me give one very brief example. During the very large CITADEL project in
the Northwest in the early 90's there came a time when a good many of the
veteran troops began to *burn out*. The real cause was that the project,
which had started with great enthusiasm and revived many a flagging community
and individual was doing what every Baha'i project did in America (following
in the illustrious footsteps of TV executives) - instead of moving to a
higher plateau - one perhaps never tried in America, it just reinvented
itself - you know NEW! IMPROVED! NOW WITH NEW POWER CRYSTALS!! But there was
no changes at all, except that it was just bigger, louder, and more
unwieldly.
Well at this time I was working in conjunction with the project. That in
itself is a long story but anyway . . . a lot of these veterans would end up
over at my house. And we began to talk. Some of them were young and had just
started getting involved in the Youth Movement when it shut down. Now they
were back. So we began with a history lesson of the Cause in America. Then
with our own history - its fits and starts. And then I brought out the
Guardian and simply read passages that perfectly described our situtation -
AND the way out. Well, you should have seen their spirits pick up. Some were
very happy and heartened. Others were too, but were also angry. There had
been plenty of deepenings on the Guardian's writings , how come none of this
had never come out. They were incredulous! "We were read the same passages,
but it was glossed over - never applied to what was going on - our plans!?"
Well two things happened. First the Citadel Project blew itself out because
it simply went in circles. It got folks really excited and kept them so, but
then went nowhere. But those youth and young adults joined another group that
was formed. They grew quickly disenchanted with what was not happening and
left. But they knew what really needed to happen. And wherever they are, they
still are pushing. Seperately, quietly. But what is needed is a crtiical
mass, a core, nation-wide, that has this vision, and will work in concert to
ignite all those souls that are so starved for spiritual reality, for a
vision. For a reason to live.
"We cannot help in noting the sad lag in the rate of your enrollments, a lag
which is conspicuously at variance with the high energy of your endeavors and
the teaching opportunities abounding in your richly blessed land."
(Universal House of Justice, Ridvan 1984)
Don't accuse me of being vague again Mr. Scholl. I and others like me have
lots of plans. But all the plans in the world won't do a damn bit of good if
we are scattered. If we cannot form a critical mass that can withstand the
forces arrayed against it, first from within the Faith itself and next from
the conservative forces without - if we cannot cause a spiritual explosion,
then what good are all these plans? Or should we waste another year haggling
over every dot and comma?? As Coun. Arbab once said when pressed for plans -
he said "Americans are famous for their planning! If we isolated all the
Americans here in this room to a little corner and gave them fifteen minutes,
it is undoubtable that they would come up with a viable plan for taking over
the world! Plans we can have in a moment. Right now we need a Unity of Vision
and Purpose. A true commitment of spirit, one to another and to Baha'u'llah.
First this then the plans!"
(London Conference 1984)
These are just the initial thoughts. What of it Scholl? Are you ready to let
the past fall away and begin a new fight? One that we can win?
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:34:26 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Talkin bout Jim's Reformation
I believe that I have already covered the reason why I have not offered a
plethora of details. But since you may have missed it Steve I will go over it
again.
First, I have rarely commented negatively against many of the suggestions for
reforms here. Some others have, but I haven't because: 1.) such arguments are
not relevent to our current situation - it is a little like kids arguing who
will get the top bunk at camp two weeks before they even board the bus -
we're not there yet; 2.) we are literally not in a position to really know
exactly what types of reforms really are needed yet - let alone down the
road.
Secondly, there is little doubt that change is needed - a desperate push
toward greater maturity is glaringly obvious. But the lack of maturity is not
simply caused by narrow-minded fools in positions of power.
After all those folks had come to their own belief in Baha'u'llah, did they
not? There was a time when the Beauty seized their souls too. It isn't as if
this is some alien occupation we're are suffering under, is it? These folks
are Baha'i also, are they not? And what makes anyone here think they they are
not suffering, to one degree or anthor from the very same spiritual diseases
that have inflicted *them*?
The same arrogance that keeps both sides insisting that they are the ones
with the clear line-of-sight to the Truth. Isn't this what we have been
seeing? Twenty years of a pitched battle of egos on both sides - with an
entire Baha'i community going nowhere stuck in the middle. When was the last
time either of these groups had a luncheon where God was the keynote speaker?
And what was on the menu that day?
Unity of thought is hollow to you? How odd. Isn't that what you have been
begging for in all your pleas to National? A coming together to explore the
issues, and come to a unity of vision?
All these profound thoughts that have been offered for reform have been
offered in a vacuum - not just here on Talisman but for years - where were
all the great discussions being held prior to the Net? In apartments and
homes and over the phone and in dark corners at conferences?
I mean exactly how would you ever expect such reforms to gain popular support
and win the field? At National Convention? Ha! We've seen how well that
works. At District Converntion? Don't make me laugh.
The very Administrative Order you hope to change - I would hope you mean to
mature - is the absolute worst place to start anything. By now that should be
obvious. So where do we start?
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 96 14:52:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Review of the Babi materials
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Rob,
When your time permits, I think it would be great if your office
could query the World Centre for guidance on this matter,
I understand about the "overlap" issue between the Two
Dispensations, one example of which might be the Writings of the
Bab. That is, we *could* define His Writings as part of this
Dispensation and hence subject to review. Another example is if
indeed the Guardian submitted "The Dawnbreakers" to review, then
one could argue that its because of references to and quotations
from Baha'u'llah. The same goes for God Passes By.
My main query has more to do with historical materials which are
strictly on the Babi period, say narratives of various events
such as Nayriz (1850, 1852), Zanjan (1850), or Fort Tabarsi
(1849).
Is there any difference between pre-1853 (e.g. Lutf-Ali Mirza
Shirazi's) and post-1853 narratives as far as review is
concerned? Could materials written prior to 1853, particularly
segments where they do not refer to Baha'u'llah, be considered
strictly Babi and hence not subject to *Baha'i* review?
And of course I'm also interested to know about articles written
on the Babi Dispensation which do not mention Baha'u'llah nor the
Baha'i Faith. Why subject them to *Baha'i* review?
Thank you in advance for your help in clarifying the boundary of
review.
best wishes, ahang.
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jwalbrid@indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: e-mail journal
Date: 07 Jan 1996 15:04:22 GMT
John -
What about adding, in some way, the idea of talisman as an available
'think-tank' to the mission statement? I would also object to that being the
sole or primary purpose of talisman. There's too many other great things
going on here.
As to the magazine - I'm a bit concerned about the cost. I feel this type of
material should be available to practically anyone who wants it. What about
doing it as an electronic journal in, say, Acrobat. There are freeware
acrobat readers available for most if not all curently available platforms.
An even simpler format would be HTML for which there are also freeware
readers. For some, it could be distributed via the internet; for those for
whom this is not practical due to file size, a floppy disc can be bought and
mailed for under $1.50. A double density floppy will hold about 250 pages of
uncompacted formatted material. Compacting will at least double that. High
density discs hold at least half again more material. For further
distribution, copies could be made easily by individuals, a printout made, or
the text exported to a word processor.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 16:48:58 PST
Subject: Re: metaphors & dangerous ins...
To: talisman@indiana.edu, TLCULHANE@aol.com
On Sun, 7 Jan 1996 02:23:39 -0500 TLCULHANE@aol.com wrote:
> Dear Phillip ,
>
> Loved your response to Gordon . I dont know if you were on
Talisman last
>spring when we had some discusssions along those lines . At the
time I
>posted some things on Dawnbreakers and myth called "The Road to
Shiraz." I
>am working on a piece now , a sequel if you will called " An Exile
In
>Paradise " . This rummaging around the inside and other side of
metaphor has
>its own rhythum but I will let you know when its presentable. It has
to do
>with Baha u llah, and by extension us, and centers around two
realities as
>metaphors and the metaphor becoming reality - the Siiyah Chal and
Ridvan .
>
> warm regards ,
> Terry
Thanks. I think when I first came on you posted me something about
Siiyah Shal and it was so touching for me. I look forward to reading
it. I bet there is an important book in this.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/07/96
Time: 16:48:58
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:38:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Stopping to smell the tomatoes (was: electronic journal)
Dear All,
I was going to second Juan's idea but it seems that 45 people
beat me to it!
I think the journal will have the added benefit of formalizing
some of the great suggestions that have been made on Talisman in
a way that the Institutions of the Faith can consider them.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:43:36 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: *Interact* e-zine
Juan wrote:
>I need alternating columnists in at least the following categories:
>
>1. religion, religious dialogue, mysticism and ecumenism
>2. human rights
>3. socio-economic affairs (labor, liberation theology, etc.)
>4. Gender, feminism, sexuality
>5. race, ethnicity and multiculturalism
>6. Middle East and Persian Affairs
>7. ecology and Green issues
>8. United Nations, globalism, war; and peace movements
>9. Baha'i thought and history
>10. Baha'i community affairs
>11. Teaching the Faith (Baha'i missiology)
>12. Book reviews
>
If one wished to write an article on art or philosophy or science or
psychology or semiotics or literature or... which category or categories
would one try to fit into...? Are there some branches of
knowledge/scholarship which are not of e-zine interest?
Robert.
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:54:45 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: insidious lukewarm people (fwd)
Juan wrote:
Why anyone should think the beloved Guardian's remark
>a propos 50 years later of an American community strongly shaped by the
>Administration I cannot fathom.
As Aristotle (Poetics) knew the poet is able to find universals where the
context-stuck historian cannot...
I am told that physics is poetic....
Re. the use of "magnetic". This adjective is the only one that the
Guardian repeats in his description of 'Abdu'l-Baha... ("Citadel of
Faith"?)
Robert.
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 18:08:12 EST
Subject: elections/SDC
"...it would be preferable if the election of non-permanent members
of consultative assemblies in sovereign states should be dependent on
the will and choice of the people.
For elected representatives will on this account be somewhat inclined
to exercise justice, (????) lest their reputation suffer (????) and
they fall into disfavor with the public." Secret of Divine
Civilization p. 24
QUESTION: Does the above statement by the Master apply to Baha'is?
How do the electors determine the quality of their representatives
functioning, when the elected members consult privately?
How do we avoid the current political conditions where the electoral
finds the quality of their representatives' performance through the
open and manupilative media, yet be well informed?
lovingly,
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Sun, 07 Jan 1996 17:09:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Jim's reforms
To: talisman@indiana.edu
********
I mean exactly how would you ever expect such reforms to gain popular support
and win the field? At National Convention? Ha! We've seen how well that
works. At District Converntion? Don't make me laugh.
The very Administrative Order you hope to change - I would hope you mean to
mature - is the absolute worst place to start anything. By now that should be
obvious. So where do we start?
********
What about a massive influx of new believers: as the House says:
Believe me it's not that difficult.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 15:18 PST
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: changing Talisman
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Linda, ever wise and insightful, wrote:
>I don't like the idea at all of setting up Talisman subsets. The joy of
>Talisman is reading about .....
I also enjoy the banquet of Talisman -- it is the unique mental
multiculturalism that appeals to me. The diversity of topics, and the mix n
match cross polination gives rise to new ways of looking at things.
While I would be certainly delighted to contribute a well thought out
300-400 word essays on important contemporary topics, I would still enjoy
the cocktail lounge meets Y-Teens mixer in the faculty lounge atmosphere of
Talisman.
And John -- "Surrealism?" While I am featured, along with fellow author Tom
Robbins, in the television documentary by that name, I am
no expert on the topic. The documentary is vastly entertaining and well
worth watching on TV or on video simply for the delight of seeing me have
makeup applied while I ask about Picasso and Jefferson Airplane.
Ironicaly, the director (Karl Krogstad) called me immediately after I read
your message containing the Surrealism reference. Krogstad (who is not a
member of the Baha'i Faith) directed the award winning series of TV spots
for the Faith done in the 1980's.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 19:39:27 EST
Subject: IT'S A MAN'S WORLD!!
Changing talisman?
Dear Leigh and Linda,
So, shall it be,
this is a man's world
after all,
man man man man's world.
They see things
in fragments,
compartments here in there.
Life's not under a dome.
Although born from the womb.
It is still a man's world.
I am feeling revolt.
So, I'm of no vote.
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 20:02:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: jwalbrid@indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re:queries
John Walbridge had asked about saying obligatory prayers aloud or
silently. The most relevant quotation is this:
The daily prayers are to be said each one for himself, aloud or silent
makes no difference. There is no congregational prayer except that for
the dead. We read healing and other prayers in our meetings, but the
daily prayer is a personal obligation, so someone else reading it is not
quite the same thing as saying it for yourself. (On behalf of S.E. to
Mrs Stuart Sims 31 January 1949; pub. B.News August 1949 p2; also in
Directives from the Guardian p59.)
There has been immense confusion caused by not realizing that in Baha'i
usage "congregational" means one person reading a prayer on behalf of a
group *not* a group saying a prayer in unison. The *only* case in which
congregational prayer in the Baha'i sense (same as Islamic) is *required
* is for the funerary salat. It is not permitted for the daily salat
(obligatory prayers). In all other cases there is freedom of choice.
Normal Baha'i practice in devotions *is* congregational; the saying of
prayers (du'a--those other than the obligatory ones) in unison is
commended. It is a matter of individual and community choice.
Another relevant quote would be:
"Reciting" the Greatest Name means to repeat it over and over, silently
or out loud. (On behalf of S.E. to ind. 9 June 1948; Unfolding Destiny...)
Using the G. N. is dhikr. In standard Islamic understanding, the
remembrance of
God and the attributes of God may be *mental*, that is silent, and this
may be done anytime. It is considered more meritorious to remember with
utterrance however as this involves more "work", i.e. more of the self:
more effort is involved in the act. To remember aloud, however, is more
conditional on time and place for appropriateness.
The words translated as "recite", etc., in the writings do shade toward
assuming actual physical utterrance. The assumption is that acts of
devotion should involve as much of the totality of the self as possible -
spirit, mind, and body. However, this is not quite the same as the
English distinction between aloud and silent.
Recitation/praying may be done "loudly" which means loud enough for those
other than the speaker to make out the words clearly, whether this be
those only within a three feet radius or at the other side of a football
stadium makes no difference; "secretly" which means that there is actual
vocalization but only loud enough for the speaker to make out the words;
or silently. Unless there is a specific reason why others should hear
the words or one is not within earshot of others, the preferred mode is
usually "secretly" as this involves more involvement of the self
but avoids making an unseemly display of ones devotional acts.
The actual physical parameters of the act cannot be assessed simply by
outside observance, however, but can only be judged by God in the context
of the devotee's intent and attitude. In devotional acts one should be
focused entirely on God and unmindful of the surrouding circumstances.
Only God knows if this is so. Thus someone may be praying "secretly" but
going over their shopping list in their mind and thinking how humbly
devote thay must appear; while someone praying loudly may be carried away
with love for God and not realize the volume of their voice.
Baha'is are free to choose whether and in which contexts they wish to
read/pray loudly, secretly, or silently. Whatever they choose, the
intent and attitude with which they approach the devotional act is the
most important thing.
Jackson
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:10:14 -0900
To: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: IT'S A MAN'S WORLD!!
Dear Quanta,
The in-crowd forgets/neglects the margins at its peril. Always
remember that...
I notice you are running with bright feet, hair flowing, ahead of the
swift-moving SDC carvan... Your questions require thought. But it is
clear that all the Writings carry universal significances... The Guardian
mentioned the major role SDC would play in future... Will try to find
quotation..
Robert..
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 20:45:04 EST
Subject: marginal?
Dear Robert,
Science News April 1 1994 Issue has an excellent article how the
"scientists" in a lab disabled a marginal gene in mice. Surprise!!
The next generation of mice were born "headless".
Dear Dan I am composing a poem for Garbett. It is about self-
sacrifice for God that is!!
lovingly,
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:23:48 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Mashriqu'l-adhkar
Jackson's masterful "Music, Devotions, and Mashriqu'l-Adhkar" (volume four of
the STUDIES series) is indeed still in print. It is highly recommended to
all, and I believe is the only serious historical study of Baha'i worship.
Jackson is particularly interested in the role of music in Baha'i worship,
and he quite effectively documents how it was lost in American Baha'i
practice--a sad loss indeed.
But then, Jackson himself has recently joined Talisman and, as his recent
post indicates, he can very effectively speak for himself.
Warmest,
Tony
P.S. Anyone who wants a copy of the book can send me an e-mail (Bosch
probably has it available too) the price is $32.50 harcover and $22.50
paperback. (I admit that is horrifically high, but I will give a 20%
discount to all Talismanians.) (Standing order, anyone? ;-)
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:13:33 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 8: "...every difficulty can be easily resolved..."
Talismans,
We're getting into the meat of the matter now..
Here the qualities of assembly membership (widely considered) are given --
the love and knowledge of God, knowledge of the law etc... The rulers
(members of the asemblies that constitute "the very foundation and bedrock
of government") must be learned, certainly.
Difficult to achieve? No. With divine assistance, all things are deemed
rather easy...
Robert.
SDC 8
The Shah has certainly done his part, and the execution of the
proposed beneficial measures is now in the hands of persons functioning in
assemblies of consultation. If these individuals prove to be pure and
high-minded, if they remain free from the taint of corruption, the
confirmations of God will make them a never-failing source of bounty to
mankind. He will cause to +P17 issue from their lips and their pens
what will bless the people, so that every corner of this noble country of
Iran will be illumined with their justice and integrity and the rays of
that light will encompass the whole earth. "Neither will this be
difficult with God." (Qur'an 14:23; 35:18.)
Otherwise it is clear that the results will prove unacceptable.
For it has been directly witnessed in certain foreign countries that
following on the establishment of parliaments those bodies actually
distressed and confused the people and their well-meant reforms produced
maleficent results. While the setting up of parliaments, the organizing
of assemblies of consultation, constitutes the very foundation and bedrock
of government, there are several essential requirements which these
institutions must fulfill. First, the elected members must be righteous,
God-fearing, high-minded, incorruptible. Second, they must be fully
cognizant, in every particular, of the laws of God, informed as to the
highest principles of law, versed in the rules which govern the management
of internal affairs and the conduct of foreign relations, skilled in the
useful arts of civilization, and content with their lawful emoluments.
Let it not be imagined that members of this type would be
impossible to find. Through the grace of God and His chosen ones, and the
high endeavors of the devoted and the consecrated, every difficulty can be
easily resolved, every problem however complex will prove simpler than
blinking an eye.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 22:59:44 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re : e- journal
Juan : I may be able to help or offer something with #1 Religion ,
mysticism , eucumenism and #10 Bahai community affairs .
Regards , terry
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 18:39:33 PST
Subject: New Thread: ecumenism
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Jim Blake <0006596916@mcimail.com>,
wog@poseidon.usnus.abb.com
Hi all.
Luan will also be posting.
Any thoughts on this one.
(And, by the way, this was discussed in the LSA and we decided to ask
you all, and some others about it.)
Let me set up the problem with a narrative.
So it's coming up, World Religions Day, and the LSA wants to do a
breakfast to mark it. What kind of program will be have?
Well, what does World Religions Day mean? Is is a holiday to mark
all the World's Religions or is it a Day to note that Bahai too is
one of the major world religions. Apparently the latter.
Okay, well and good.
Now do we ask our Jewish, Moslem and Christian friends to breakfast
and then explain to them that Bahai is the fullfillment of the
prophecies that have informed their religions.
I would think they would find that offensive. As Bahai's we want to
know what might be offensive to others and then carefully avoid that,
right?
As a Jew I have acquired very delicate sensibilities that alert me to
some Christians wish to give me the Good News and save my soul. I
don't think we can ever underestimate the annoyance people have at
the intrusiveness of spiritual rescuers. I personally want as much
distance as I can find between that kind of activity and me.
Of course this raises a lot of questions about how to Further the
Cause and Teach the Faith without prosyletizing!
(Thoughts on this are welcome, but I'm heading for another point.)
How do we follow the injunction to "hold other religionist above
thyself"?
Wasn't there something about the holder of the Bahai chair for world
peace at the University of Maryland calling for a "code of ethics"
for all religions about how they would treat other religions? Has
such a code been written?
What about using that as a theme for World Religion Day?
In a similar vein, is there a compilation about what a religion
should be? You know, stuff like how it should be a source of
happiness, etc., stuff like, if two people are arguing about God then
they both are wrong; a complimation that shows the way we ought to
relate to others of all religions and how, in so doing, by our own
actions, we contribute to greater peace and love among the
religionists.
I think of the story about the Dali Lama prostrating himself at the
shrines in Haifa. What has he taught us? (And who can tell me that
story better than I remember it?)
Thank you, friends.
With great warmth,
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/07/96
Time: 18:39:33
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 18:59:29 PST
Subject: e-mail address for Greenacre?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I had an e-mail address for diane blake at dianeb@al.plymouth.edu and
it doesn't work. Does any one have a good one?
PLB
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/07/96
Time: 18:59:29
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
[end of 1/7/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/8/96
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 20:51:27 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Mashriqu'l-adhkar
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Dear Talismanians
I would just like to endorse Tony's statement that the book 'Music
,Devotions and Mashriqu'l-Adhar'is excellent . We sell it here in the
Bosch Bookshop and as far as I am aware it is the only book of its type
on Music in the Faith . A very well recommended read and study .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
PS I have started the review of Kalimat's new book' Moments with
Baha'u'llah ' I will post the review tomorrow . Let me say in advance
how much we owe Kalimat for this gift . Tony gave me the Galley proofs
at the ABS Conference so I had the bounty of reading the book prior to
publication . The story of the orange brought back such memories of
Hand of the Cause Mr Samandari .
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Mashriqu'l-adhkar
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk
Jackson's masterful "Music, Devotions, and Mashriqu'l-Adhkar" (volume
four of
the STUDIES series) is indeed still in print. It is highly recommended
to
all, and I believe is the only serious historical study of Baha'i
worship.
Jackson is particularly interested in the role of music in Baha'i
worship,
and he quite effectively documents how it was lost in American Baha'i
practice--a sad loss indeed.
But then, Jackson himself has recently joined Talisman and, as his
recent
post indicates, he can very effectively speak for himself.
Warmest,
Tony
P.S. Anyone who wants a copy of the book can send me an e-mail (Bosch
probably has it available too) the price is $32.50 harcover and $22.50
paperback. (I admit that is horrifically high, but I will give a 20%
discount to all Talismanians.) (Standing order, anyone? ;-)
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: e-mail journal
Date: 07 Jan 1996 22:11:11 GMT
Juan -
Our messages crossed in mid-stream. This happens occaisonnally here. Your
suggestion had not arrived here before I sent mine, so that argument is moot.
I would just add then that if it is decided to expand distribution, that
doing so by floppy would be less expensive than a printed version.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: talisman
Cc: "nobody@REPLAY.COM"
Subject: Who is this person?
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:08:34 -0800
Is anyone on this list familiar with the email address, nobody@replay.com?
I received a bizarre email message purportedly from a Baha'i in which the
writer alleges that a new manifestation is about to appear. Definitely
weird. The message was addressed directly to my office email address. As it
made me extremely uncomfortable and is most likely from a suspect source,
I'd like to know what is going on. Who is this person? I put a filter in my
Inbox that will delete any subsequent messages from the sender in question.
Has anyone else received anything like this?
Puzzled in Seattle,
Hannah
=========================
Once I was a prisoner lost inside myself
With the world surrounding me
Wandering through the misery
But now I am free.... --Mariah Carey
----------
From: nobody@REPLAY.COM[SMTP:nobody@REPLAY.COM]
Sent: Saturday, 06 January, 1996 20:47 PM
To: Cary E. Reinstein
Subject: The Future of God's Faith
For further information, write:
Baha'i, P.O.Box 172, Eckert, CO, 81418. U.S.A
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 21:24 PST
To: belove@sover.net
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: New Thread: ecumenism
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>The purpose of World Religion Day is *not* to hold up the Baha'i Faith as
the fulfillment of past religions, but rather to note the value of religion
and the positive contribution religion makes to the life of humanity.
It has been my pleasure to participate in several rewarding World Religion
Day events -- all of which preferred other religions before our own -- or
sat us all on the same panel with specific unifit guidlines. It was at one
such event that a Buddhist gave the delightful riddle:
Moses, Jesus, Buddha, and Mohammad walk into a room
There is only one chair.
Who sits on the floor, and who sits in the chair?
Answer: As they were all the essence of courtesy and humility, none would
exalt himself over the others. They would all sit together on the floor
We used this riddle in print adds and on the radio in a Baha'i proclamation.
Of course, we would get calls from Christians insisting that Jesus would sit
in the chair. To which we would reply, with all kindness, "Do you really
believe that the meek and lowly Jesus, who got down and washed His
disciples' feet, would be be so rude as to take the only chair in the room?"
Pick a topic for all to address: justice, mercy, compassion, the role of
religion in making a positive contribution to life, etc. No debates, simply
each sharing from their tradition.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 21:26 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Who is this person?
>Is anyone on this list familiar with the email address, nobody@replay.com?
>
>CB in CO
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: talisman
Subject: Speechless in the Digital Age
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 21:43:54 -0800
Speechless in the Digital Age...............
=================================
>The Usenet Oracle has pondered your question deeply.
>Your question was:
>>
>And in response, thus spake the Oracle:
Poor, suffering supplicant. Laryngitis was a product of the old, clunky
pre-postmodern world before computers. Now, the foremost silencer is
digit trauma. Is it carpal tunnel syndrome again? Did you break a few
knuckles messing up your brother-in-law's dental work? Did you try to
grab a falafel ball out of the deep fat fryer with your bare hands? The
Oracle, naturally, has some solutions for you.
* Type with your nose. It's slow and inefficient, but if what you have
to say is really important, it's an option.
* Try making chirping and chittering sounds into your modem. Just last
week I gave that advice to an infinite number of monkeys, and that
afternoon they e-mailed me the script for "Hamlet."
* Flip your mouse over and say "Hello, computer" into it. Didn't work
for Scotty in Star Trek IV, but that was before Windows95.
If those fail, it may be time for a healing. If Oral can do it, Oracle
can do it better! I want you to raise those poor, limp, damaged
appendages and place them up against the screen, and FEEL the power of
my omnipotence! That's right, FEEL the power, as it HEALS you and
SMITES the devil! Can I get an Amen?
You owe the Oracle seven million dollars, or He will call you home.
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 00:47:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: Chris Buck says hello
Chris sends the following update on his dissertation. It appears that
unsubscribing from Talisman was the key to his getting work done. Hmmm...
there's an idea!
": I just finished Chapter Two today. It's a 100-page introduction to
Syriac/Persian Christianity. Several days ago, I finished Chapter One,
which is 50 pages on my Research Design. Now I'm working on my Intro to
Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Unity Paradigm. But this will take me a couple
of more weeks at least. Plus I start teaching on the 10th. (You can relay
this *news* on Talisman, if you like, with my regards to everyone on
Talisman.)"
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
Date: 08 Jan 96 01:38:19 EST
From: Farzin Behroozi <102636.547@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: unsubscribe
Please unsubscribe Talisman 102636.547@compuserve.com
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 02:00:41 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Entry by troops, our history and football
Someone recently asked if the answer to all our wows would not essentially
be entry by troops. Well, a big influx of believers would be wonderful and
terrible and cause all sorts of problems and wash out the old crude like a
Texas flashflood. There is only one problem that I can see here.
It ain't gonna happen.
At least not yet. And it isn't because the time isn't ripe. It has been
ripe and gone to seed a good number of times. Our teaching efforts have
failed and failed because of us - not the lack of receptivity on the part of
Americans. Don't get me wrong - America is a tough nut to crack, but we've
had cracks to exploit at different times and we did not carpe diem . . .
And we won't. So long as the status quo remains. Our understanding of
ourselves is so shallow; because we do not know what our mission is; because
for a number of reasons we have failed to follow the Guardian's instructions
and truly see his vision of us and our destiny . . . and this shallowness
will not allow us to effectively exploit the spiritual powers at our
disposal. We can't touch the hearts because as individual and especially as
communities we are not touched.
We don't have a clue as to what teaching this Cause really means. Review
the wonderful little booklet put out by the House years ago, *The Individual
and Teaching*. If we carefully read this and match it to virtually all of the
*teaching work* we have seen from firesides to mass teaching we'll find
little resemblance. Instead we have proceeded along lines and patterns we
were raised to follow; even if we detested them. I am speaking generally
about Christian evangelical methods of teaching. For every teaching effort
that comes close to resembling the patterns laid down by our best teachers,
and esp. by Abdu'l-Baha' we have hundreds that follow the old patterns.
And it isn't as if we can simply hold a series of summer classes and
*institutes* and develop *new methods*. All the old patterns - the old
mindsets - these are the sources of the problem and they cannot be blithely
cast aside on one weekend.
If we are to have any hope of having America attain its spiritual destiny
we have to do two things. At one time we had the luxuary (in hindsight we can
see we had decades) of time. Both general processes could have occurred
perhaps in alternating cycles. Bow we do not have the time.
The first is a massive re-education process. We have to unprogram and
truly educate, first ourselves and then the rest of the national community.
We have to re-examine a lot of long held assumptions - both those that have
held us in stasis for so long and the garbage we have accumilated from our
American culture. We have to scan generally held assumptions and hold them up
to the light of Baha'u'llah's teaching and ask ourselves - "does this fit
with His New World Order?" If not we must reject it. If it does fit then we
find a way to integrate it into our organic community. Lest anyone have
problems with this know that this is already being done - has been done in
various countries around the world - with startling success.
The second thing that has to be down is to restart the Youth Movement -
but this time it is simply *The Movement*. The idea here was to build a core
of extremely well-deepened and dedicated *dawnbreakers* who will begin, very
quickly to follow the Guardian's instructions:
>>The spirit that sent forth, not so long ago, in such
rapid succession, so many pioneers to such remote areas of the globe,
must at all costs and above everything else, be recaptured, for the two-fold
purpose of swelling the number, and of ensuring the continual
flow, of pioneers, so essential for the safeguarding of the prizes won in
the course of the several campaigns of a world-girdling Crusade,
###and of combatting the evil forces which a relentless and all-pervasive
materialism,
the cancerous growth of militant racialism, political corruption,
unbridled capitalism, wide-spread lawlessness and gross immorality,
are, alas, unleashing, with ominous swiftness, amongst various classes
of the society to which the members of this community belong.###
(Citadel of Faith, page 154)
This is just one reference to what we were intended to do. We have always
been led to believe that the first part of the quote was _the_ mission of the
Baha'i community on America. For years all references to the second part of
the quote were somehow never mentioned, or if they were they were glossed
over quickly. We would all hurry on to the feel good parts of the conference.
If we hope to attain America's spiritual destiny; if we hope to truly
teach the Cause of God and see entry by troops here; if we _really_ want to
do what we can to solve the most challenging issue before the streets run
with any more blood than we had better sit down, together, starting here, and
radically rethink who the hell we are and what we are supposed to be doing.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 00:29:03 -0700
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: UHJ on Human Rights (2)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
I applaud Robert Johnston for noting that " the comparison drawn
between this matter (the Dialogue affair) and the manifest historical and
current universal mistreatment of indigenous peoples is grossly insulting to
indigenous peoples" - No less so than comparing those involved with
Dialogue to the victims of Nazi extermination camps - a comparison which
I'm sure would elicit outrage. The fact that this absurd comparison has
not drawn more fire only demonstrates the abysmal lack of knowledge of the
extent of that "historical and current universal mistreatment."
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 00:28:48 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: just another old poem
THE PIONEER COMES HOME
Jack came home
from Central Africa
with a swollen brain.
The doctors cut a disk shaped piece
from the top of his skull.
First man I ever knew
with a truly swollen brain.
Not like I would have thought:
he was a gentle hearted
simple man
well loved both here and there.
For a month or so
he wore a hat both night and day,
and we were careful not to walk too close
to where he sat,
as we carried our coffee cups
from the kitchen to the porch.
The guests would wince
when he'd move his head
from side to side
and tell us how
he "could sorta feel it
slosh around in there."
And when the swelling
and the inflamation passed
the doctors put his top back on
and told him he should stay at home.
So the next week
he went back to Africa.
We've had letters from him since,
and pictures: Jack there,
with his Alberta-farm- boy grin,
and children all around,
much more at home
than some of us
who wished we could
become inflamed
and opened up like Jack.
Gordon McFarlane
January15/90
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 00:29:12 -0700
To: belove@sover.net
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: RE: metaphors & dangerous insiduous lukwarm people.
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Philip;
I deeply appreciated your response. In your post you wrote . . .
>I'm sure that the metaphors of the writings reach into places in the
>soul the laws cannot go. I would have more of them. I think that is why
I've always been so fond of Christianity. I love the story of Easter and
the Passion. I love how they have been mythologized. (Myth being a special
case of Metaphor).
Not only is Myth a special case of metaphor, so too is ritual, which
is something that many Baha'is have an odd attitude about. Because the
establishment of "Baha'i rituals" is prohibited, some seem to feel that
rituals of any kind are prohibited. Is this a wide-spread phenomena? I
don't know. Baha'is use the metaphors of the writings as rhetorical devices
to illustrate "Baha'i verities and truisms" but don't allow the metaphors
themselves to unfold and "reach into places in the soul that laws cannot
go." Sometimes it seems to me this Faith is a religion of laws,
administration, endless talk and too many meetings, - bone dry and boring.
I too love the way Christianity has been mythologized. (I dare say, prior
to my enrollment in the Baha'i Faith, I was one of those dangerous,
insiduous, lukewarm Christians who upheld the mythological, metaphoric and
ritual aspect of Christianity while undermining it's spiritual and
intellectual foundation :-)
>I suspect that our historians have a difficult job because the Faith
>will eventually live as much by the story of the lives of the Twin
>Manifestations as by the specific writings. How to allow the
>mystical (which is also the metaphorical) resound while also writing
>"scientific" history. I bet that's a tough problem for the one's who
>do it.
I suspect the conflict between our natural impulse to mythologize
and the desire to scientifically analyse, contextualize and synthesize may
be partially responsible for the anti-intellectualism we've been hearing so
much about. Good grief! that problem's been with us ever since the tree of
knowlege took root in the Eden of ignorance.
> Could you send me more on what you are doing?
Certainly, but in a later post.
"Metaphors We Live By" - >Who publishes this? (University of Chicago
Press, ISBN 0-226-46801-1), > Is it a text book? (Yes).
Thanks for the other info.
Gord:
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 00:01:35 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Jim's reforms
How about with Ourselves... And learning to love our institutions. What
happens to a young kid when you suddenly turn on the love for that child???
Doesn't he just blossom??? Well, the Institutions can do the same thing.
I love the LSA... I Love the NSA... I love the Universal House of Justice...
Just a shift in paradigm. I so far have yet to see any sort of reform when
we B****, whine, and moan about how *bad* it all is... That just
reinforces bad behaviour. If we change our paradigm and our hearts... you
never know what you may get... it may be what you asked for to begin with.
Margreet
At 05:09 PM 1/7/96 -0600, AGhosh@uh.edu wrote:
>
>********
>I mean exactly how would you ever expect such reforms to gain popular support
>and win the field? At National Convention? Ha! We've seen how well that
>works. At District Converntion? Don't make me laugh.
>
>The very Administrative Order you hope to change - I would hope you mean to
>mature - is the absolute worst place to start anything. By now that should be
>obvious. So where do we start?
>********
>
>What about a massive influx of new believers: as the House says:
>Believe me it's not that difficult.
>
>Love
>Arindam
>
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 00:49:57 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: changing Talisman
Dear Talismans,
Several people have raised considerations about an e-journal diminishing the
dynamic and eclectic nature of the present Talisman community. This is a
scary thought because the diverse postings are what make this list so
satisfying, and I can appreciate their concern.
However, there is clearly a need for a more formalized venue, where talisman
friends can develop the ideas floated by the list members as casual posts.
People's comments, new directions and other considerations which come out of
a thread can then be incorporated into the original thought and reworked to
produce a more polished statement.
Furthermore, preliminary drafts of scholarly work can appear and will benefit
from people's reactions. Circulating drafts of new articles is common among
many writers and the e-journal will enable those drafts to reach a wider
number of critical readers. Their reponsese will help the author address
potential trouble spots before the article is submitted for formal review.
Electronic journals are becoming hot, hot, hot in many fields and why
shouldn't we do it too? From what I understand, these journals don't
supplant informal postings on existing discussion lists but augment them in a
satisfying way.
I'd also like to suggest that we expand the list of topics to include
education, moral development, and issues of social and economic development
as well as research-in-progress reports.
Best,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 96 01:30 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Jim's reforms
>How about with Ourselves... And learning to love our institutions.
Good point, Margee.
Baha'is love Shoghi Effendi because he is dead. Look back at how the
beloved Guardian was treated when he was alive.
The Universal House of Justice is the "head" of the Baha'i Faith. I believe
that how people relate to the UHJ is exactly how they would relate to Shoghi
Effendi, the Master, or the Prisoner of Akka. If you ever wanted to know
what it was like then, look at what its like now. I am the same me, you're
the same you, and this is the changless Faith of God.
Do I love the Universal House of Justice, do I love my National Spiritual
Assembly, all National Spiritual Assemblies, do I love my LSA? Do I pray for
my LSA, NSA? These are questions I must ask myself and pray that I get the
best answer.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Who is this person?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 03:48:39 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hannah -
I received the same mailing. I believe it came from the Baha'is
Under the Provisions of the Covenant (the BUPC) - the Covenant-breaker
organization started by chiropractor, Leeland Jensen. If not, it was
from one of its several splinter groups.
Strange thing. I also had the same uncomfortable feeling. Even
before I read the letter (not knowing what it was), I remember
experiencing a sinking sensation in my stomach just from looking at the
header.
I forwarded the message to the secretariats at both the Baha'i World
Centre and the U.S. Baha'i National Center.
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Founding President., Two-Year College Sociological Society *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:41:46 +1200
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: two quotations: SDC & magnetic
Talismans,
Two quotations. The first concerning the future status of
SDC, the second giving the Guardian's repeated usage of "magnetic" to
describe the Master...
Robert.
(1) Shoghi Effendi described "The Secret of Divine Civilisation" as
"'Abdu'l-Baha's outstanding contribution to the future reorganization of
the world," (WOB, p. 37)
(2) Shoghi Effendi said of Abdu'l-Baha:
It would be indeed difficult for us, who stand so close to such a
tremendous figure and are drawn by the mysterious power of so MAGNETIC a
personality....
.... Let those who have known Abdu'l-Baha, who through their contact with
His MAGNETIC personality have come to cherish for Him so fervent an
admiration, reflect, in the light of this statement, on the greatness of
One Who is so far above Him in station.
(DB, p. 131-132. Emphasis added)
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 06:12:50 -0600 (CST)
From: John Bromberek
Subject: Re: Who is this person?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Me, too.
What little I read of it looked a lot like the Maani (sp) "theory"
that was posted to soc.religion.bahai a few months ago... BHA, etc.
John B.
johnb@intellinet.com
=END=
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 14:19:33 MEZ-1
From: Noorbakhsh Monzavi
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: nmo@postman.hibo.no
Subject: unsubscribe
Please unsubscribe me
Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no
temporarily from TAlisman.
Thanks for being on the list so far.
Regards Noorbakhsh.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 23:31:00 PST
Subject: FW: Re: Talkin bout Jim's Reformation
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:34:26 -0500 Alethinos@aol.com wrote:
>First, I have rarely commented negatively against many of the
suggestions for
>reforms here. Some others have, but I haven't because: 1.) such
arguments are
>not relevent to our current situation - it is a little like kids
arguing who
>will get the top bunk at camp two weeks before they even board the
bus -
>we're not there yet
Although I haven't been invited to comment, I will and I hope you
will excuse me if what I say offends you.
I think these comments are worse than a negative comment against a
suggestion, they are negative comments against the suggestor.
I don't know how to respond to you when you say you don't make
negative comments and then that is just what you do. More than
negative comments, they are insults. It is calling the talisman
contributors "little kids arguing, etc."
Actually, it wasn't until I read the following that I began to have
some understanding of what might be behind the impatience and
irritablity I've sensed in many of your postings:
>
>Unity of thought is hollow to you? How odd. Isn't that what you have
been
>begging for in all your pleas to National? A coming together to
explore the
>issues, and come to a unity of vision?
>
>All these profound thoughts that have been offered for reform have
been
>offered in a vacuum - not just here on Talisman but for years -
where were
>all the great discussions being held prior to the Net? In apartments
and
>homes and over the phone and in dark corners at conferences?
>
>I mean exactly how would you ever expect such reforms to gain
popular support
>and win the field? At National Convention? Ha! We've seen how well
that
>works. At District Converntion? Don't make me laugh.
>
>The very Administrative Order you hope to change - I would hope you
mean to
>mature - is the absolute worst place to start anything. By now that
should be
>obvious. So where do we start?
I am new to this Faith. Declared November 1993. This is an amazing
amount of frustration and bitterness I am hearing here. Le Chagrin
d'amour, no doubt.
Philip
>
>jim harrison
>
>Alethinos@aol.com
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/07/96
Time: 23:31:01
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 96 23:25:53 PST
Subject: FW: IT'S A MAN'S WORLD!!
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On Sun, 7 Jan 1996 19:39:27 EST QUANTA DAWNLIGHT wrote:
>Changing talisman?
>Dear Leigh and Linda,
>So, shall it be,
>this is a man's world
>after all,
>man man man man's world.
>
>They see things
>in fragments,
>compartments here in there.
>Life's not under a dome.
>Although born from the womb.
>It is still a man's world.
>I am feeling revolt.
>So, I'm of no vote.
>
>
>
>
>
>Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
>
>
Unfair to guys! We see things lots of ways and often know that each
of the many many perspectives can be valuable. And sometimes, often
enough, we see things whole.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/07/96
Time: 23:25:53
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:26:33 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: nobody@replay.com
I have gotten a couple of queries about an e-mail message from
"nobody@replay.com". This obviously is an account designed to forward
e-mail messages in a way that makes the sender anonymous. The message I
got was not addressed to Talisman, which leads me to suspect that some
lurker sent the message to active participants in Talisman but not to the
list itself. Did anybody NOT get it?
As for the content, it was evidently from a follower a Jamsheed Ma'ani,
an odd covenant-breaker (Is there any other kind these days?) who claims
to be a third Manifestation of God on the grounds that the words "Baha"
has three letters in Arabic. Does anybody know anything more about this
man and his group than I do?
John Walbridge
List Owner
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 16:34:26 +0100 (MET)
Subject: nobody
To: talisman@indiana.edu
More about nobody:
I've checked my files and located a letter from John Carre (acute
accent on the last e) in Hotchkiss, CO (Colorado?). He refers to a
publication called the Alif (which I also have somewhere) in
which as I recall some magical/mystic calculations involving the
Alif and abjad calculations led him to expect a new
Manifestation sometime soon in the Rockies. The importance of
the Alif leads me to suspect that the person posting as nobody is
linked to John Carre.
I also found a letter from the National Spiritual Assembly of the
Netherlands to me, dated 22 Feb 1994 which says:
John Carre is not simply somebody considered a
"violator" but has explicitly been declared a
covenantbreaker in the full sense and application of this
Baha'i term.
Somebody on Talisman suggested that there might be a link with
the Bahais under the provisions of the covenant. Anything is
possible, but one key to Carre's position, as I recall, was the loss
of the Guardianship with the death of Shoghi Effendi, whereas I
thought the Bahais under the provisions of the covenant
maintained that Remey and successors were the Guardians?
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:13:08 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: insidious lukewarm people (fwd)
The magnet principle is perhaps more appropriate than some might think.
Yes a magnet may lose some of its magnetism if it's dropped, but the Cause
of God in the past was very prone to split up into splinter groups in
past dispensations and even in the current dispensation. Only the
Covenant prevents the splintering of the Baha'i community with its
tremendous diversity and varying levels of maturity. The power of
the covenant turns the internal and external disintegrative forces
into purifying forces that take us to the next phase. I strongly feel
as the Guardian stated that we are too close to the origin to fully
appreciate the beauty and power of the administrative order amidst
the undoubted flaws of individuals and groups. Many of are quietly
working to develop the bonds of freindship, love and understanding
within our Baha'i communities and also bonds tying us to our brothers
and sisters suffering in the surrounding communities.
We know the American Baha'i coummunity has failed many a test from
statements of the Master as to the potential vast expansion of the
Faith if we followed various principles. But there is a mysterious
force at work. There have been awsome happenings going on inspite
of our follys. I will mention just one.
Several months ago there was an event in Washington DC. The third
annual Native American Prayer vigil on the Capital grounds. Native
Americans from all over the Western Hemisphere came. Incas, Mayas,
Aztecs and others from Latin America as well as elders and members
of many North American tribes. Nine teepees were setup onthe
mall. Outside religious groups were invited to participate, but only
the Baha'is did. The Baha'i representative read from Baha'u'llah's
Writings. When she finished, the nineteenth elder holding the Peace
Pipe of a certain tribe stood up and said "This is what we believe".
At that moment the gasoliine generator ran out of gas and no one else
was able to use the loudspeaker system. One of the participants who
had been involved in supporting the logistics of the Prayer Vigil was
a Baha'i and had written the NSA and the Universal House of Justice
for guidance. He was referred to the Office of External Affairs who
put him in touch with the LSA of DC. He conveyed a request to the
Washington Community to hold a dinner for the Elders and 75 of their
guests. I was greatly blessed by being a "door greeter". After the
dinner, two of the elders were asked to speak. Such humility, such
freindship and openness! Such beauty. They each talked about prophecies
in their traditions concerning our time and the urgency for the
unity of all peoples and the terrible tests which we are destined
to experience. They each talked about the necessity of developing
our spritual character. The talks were so universal that they would
apply and inspire peoples of any background or belief. Simultaneous
translation to the other spoken languages took place. There was such
an atmosphere of love and yes of friendship that no one wanted to leave.
I can not adequately tell you the beauty and blessedness of this event.
Another tiny event. We found out recently that a local church has used
selections from Baha'u'llahs writings in 3 or 4 of their services. They
said they were so beautiful and universal. These were from hadouts
given 8 months ago at an interfaith meeting hosted by the local Baha'is.
This last week we were honored and blessed by a visit from an elder of
the Turtle Mountain Chippewa reservation in North Dakota, Vern Longie.
Again the mysterious forces at work in this Cause were evident. Again
the love and friendship at these meetins was palpable. Again the
love, friendship, humility, and bonds of unity were everywhere among
all the participants.
May the blessings of these and many other unreported events set afire
all you Talismanians!
Another small point for consideration on another matter. A small story
of my rights being restricted by the institutions. I became a Bahai in
1969 just two weeks before being sent to Vietnam. I was suddenly thrust
into a vacuum as an isolated believer. The National Spiritual Assembly
of Vietnam communicated to the GI Bahais through one selected GI who
would write to each of us individually. We were directed by the NSA of
Vietnam to not visit the many Baha'is in the surrounding villages. I
had a passionate desire to be with other Baha'is, but I didn't object.
If the Baha'is in the local villages were seen associating with American
GI's their lives would have been in danger. It was a very difficult time.
My friends who did visit the villages (not for very noble purposes!)
would tell me of hearing the children singing "Allah'u'Abha" and other
Baha'i songs.
By the way I was taught by a former Theosophist and used to attend
deepenings at Peter Kahn's house in Ann Arbor.
Sorry about all this rambling, but as a new talismanian I felt the
need to express some reaction and maybe make a small contribution to
talisman.
Love to you all
George
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 07:54:41 -0800
To: jwalbrid , talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: nobody@replay.com
Hello.. I have Eudora, and I am learning new things all the time.. Eudora
has a feature called "redirect" meaning I can redirect a piece of mail, to
someone, it shows I sent it on my system to that person, but the person who
recieves the mail only sees the original sender as the one who has sent the
mail and not me... I do not like that feature... it is a security issue I
need to find out about...
Just a thought, Margreet
At 10:26 AM 1/8/96 -0500, jwalbrid wrote:
>I have gotten a couple of queries about an e-mail message from
>"nobody@replay.com". This obviously is an account designed to forward
>e-mail messages in a way that makes the sender anonymous. The message I
>got was not addressed to Talisman, which leads me to suspect that some
>lurker sent the message to active participants in Talisman but not to the
>list itself. Did anybody NOT get it?
>
>As for the content, it was evidently from a follower a Jamsheed Ma'ani,
>an odd covenant-breaker (Is there any other kind these days?) who claims
>to be a third Manifestation of God on the grounds that the words "Baha"
>has three letters in Arabic. Does anybody know anything more about this
>man and his group than I do?
>
>John Walbridge
>List Owner
>
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
"burlb@bmi.net"
Subject: RE: Jim's reforms
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 07:48:59 -0800
Hannah's simple take on this topic....
Analogy: I love my children but I am not afraid to criticize them in a
gentle but firm manner because they are *subordinate* to me. Also, I am
responsible for guiding them. I love my Faith and its institutions but I
would only question them in the most loving and forbearing manner as the
relationship is quite different. In that relationship, I am the child.
However, I may not always understand the guidance that is given and I may
not always be pleased.
I believe that virtually everyone on this list has a generally similar
attitude. It is very refreshing and healthy and nothing to be concerned
about.
Warmly,
Hannah
=====================
Once I was a prisoner lost inside myself
With the world surrounding me
Wandering through the misery
But now I am free. --Mariah Carey
----------
From: burlb@bmi.net[SMTP:burlb@bmi.net]
Sent: Monday, 08 January, 1996 1:30 AM
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Jim's reforms
>How about with Ourselves... And learning to love our institutions.
Good point, Margee.
Baha'is love Shoghi Effendi because he is dead. Look back at how the
beloved Guardian was treated when he was alive.
The Universal House of Justice is the "head" of the Baha'i Faith. I believe
that how people relate to the UHJ is exactly how they would relate to Shoghi
Effendi, the Master, or the Prisoner of Akka. If you ever wanted to know
what it was like then, look at what its like now. I am the same me, you're
the same you, and this is the changless Faith of God.
Do I love the Universal House of Justice, do I love my National Spiritual
Assembly, all National Spiritual Assemblies, do I love my LSA? Do I pray for
my LSA, NSA? These are questions I must ask myself and pray that I get the
best answer.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: PayamA@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:15:02 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: email problems
Dear John
IN the last few days, I have been experiencing some trouble reading some of
the talisman mail (about two or three a day). I can't open them. I don't
know if this is a problem on AOL or talisman. Has anyone else had the same
problem?
Payam
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 10:38:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Jim's reforms
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Well, Jim if you believe it is not going to happen, it is not.
But the friends around here in Houston and Dallas (and countless others)
are having a great amount of success. And as Margaret says, the key to
the change is love and praise: hard and difficult to believe as it may
seem.
We have two choice: we can talk about past and present hurt: to which
I fully sympathasize. Or we can "joyously rally around the local and
national assemblies" to fight this "one last battle (as you refer) to
THE ONLY GOAL of the fourth year plan of expansion and consolidation.
The Bahai Faith is a microcosm of the world. It will have its liberal
and fundamentalist elements, its blind believers and skeptics. Only thing
that unites us is our dedication to further the cause of Bahaullah and
our love for each other since we are all engaged in the same battle.
Love and onward march.
Arindam
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:11:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "Charles W. Cooper II"
To: jwalbrid
Cc: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: nobody@replay.com
I have been getting them. I've just sent a message to the
postmaster@replay.com requesting that these unsolicited messages be
stopped (to my account at least).
You may wish to take steps with the majordomo software to prevent perusing
of the subscriber list.
=END=
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 11:17:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: The Third Manifestation
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
> As for the content, it was evidently from a follower a Jamsheed
> Ma'ani, an odd covenant-breaker (Is there any other kind these
> days?) who claims to be a third Manifestation of God on the
> grounds that the words "Baha" has three letters in Arabic.
Jamsheed Ma'ani was a nut case.
But, Baha'u'llah is the Third Manifestation. So says the Qur'an
(Sura of woman). According to Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'u'llah referred
to Himself as the "Third" Manifestation because the Bab and
Quddus were the First and the Second.
So, at the very least, Ma'ani was poor in math.
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:14:53 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca
Subject: Re: New Thread: ecumenism
I wish that Chris Buck were still on Talisman to respond to this thread. One
of his favorite topics was the need to maintain World Religion Day as a truly
ecumenical occasion for the Baha'i community.
I do remember very well that, as a child, I attended World Religion Day
celebrations which were almost always occasions where Baha'is would invite
representatives of various religious traditions to share the platform and
speak on some common theme. This was a demonstration of our respect for and
belief in all religions. In addition, in those pre-ecumenical days, it was
virtually the only venue in the city where clergy of different religions came
together. Very progressive for its time.
But, in the past few years World Religion Day has been hijacked by
zealous Baha'is as yet another occasion on which to demonstrate Baha'i
triumphalism--sometime quite obnoxiously be informing the invited clergy that
their religions have been superceded, and sometime just by proclaiming the
Baha'i Faith as THE world religion, almost as bad, but not quite so rude.
Anyway, I am sure that Chris would argue for a return to the good old
days of Baha'i ecumenism. And I second his suggestion.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:06:49 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: How to be an adult Baha'i?
I certainly appreciated Hannah's analogy concerning parents/children, etc.
However, I feel that the challenge today is to figure out how to be a Baha'i
and also be an adult, not a child.
The Baha'i community is full of capable and dynamic people who have
achieved much in their own right. To regard the community as a collection of
children is to ignore that potential.
Tony
=END=
Date: 8 Jan 96 11:14:51 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Re: electronic journal
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: RE>electronic journal
Dear Talismans,
>>I too would like to second Juan's suggestion for a Talisman >>statement of
>>purpose and electronic magazine.
>>Nima
Me too. And will help where possible.
Best,
Sandy Fotos
Please Count me in, as well, and I am more than glad to put my trusty student
assistant to the task of any detailed www technical assistance we might need.
- Daniel ( the unofficial mayor of the gay ghetto in Talisman)
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:10:56 EST
Subject: entropy/genes/poem "farewell"
Dear ...
This generation, collectively spent infinite numbers of years,
kilocalories, earth's natural resources, innate/derived/acquired
talents, to define "self", to develop "self", to satisfy "self", to
defend "self" and at the end lost by the "insisting-self" to imaginery
LIBERTY! It will be known as the generation of ENTROPY
in human history.
"ENTROPY: ...1. a thermodynamic measure of the amount
of energy available for useful work in a system undergoing
change..." Webster, unabridged ed. 1983 p. 608
*****************************
ABSENT MOUSE GENE LEADS TO NO-BRAINER
Scientists who shut off a certain gene in developing mice got
a bizarre result: The mice looked normal [???] from tail to
neck, but for a head they have only a stump tipped with ears...
German embryologist Hans Spemann transferred a patch of
tissue from one newt embryo to another and caused second
embryo to form an extra central nervous system. Realizing
that the transplanted tissue could direct how adjacent
cells develop, he called the region it came from the "organizer".
Science News, April 1, vol. 147, No. 13 p. 197
-- I fear that an "organizer" may have developed with "no-heart".
--quanta dawn-light
*****************
SO, YOU'RE LEAVING?
Members of humanity,
of love and unity
with great diversity,
but, can't give up
rights and liberty,
even for God's sake.
Hetero, homo,
men and women,
we all commit
divine arson,
burning true humility
for sense of false pride,
calling it human right.
The peer pressure
taxed the spirit and
sacrificed Divine Pleasure.
Poor handsome butterflies
caught in worldly mud.
Folks are seeking a
custom made Revelation,
to meet the demans of
a lost generation.
This is our tragedy.
So help us God!
So, farewell my friend,
God's prodigal son,
hope you "seize thy chance"
and one day return home.
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 15:06:09 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: Member1700@aol.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu, cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca
Subject: Re: New Thread: ecumenism
The good old days never left in the communities I have experienced. I
say amen to the return for communities that don't support ecumenism.
=END=
From: colerche@vub.ac.be (Lerche Charles Olsen)
Subject: re: 2-step enrollment process
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:44:56 +0100 (MET)
Here is some more information, as requested, on the declaration
and enrollment process in Belgium. It was initiated in 1993 to
stimulate the process of entry by troops. The institutions
recognized that, when teaching, people in Belgium can recognize
the station of Baha'u'llah without being interested in getting in-
volved in the administrative order, and that the process of evolving
as a Baha'i takes our whole lives. So, if during the teaching
process an individual is told about the three Central figures and that
an administrative order and laws exist, and that person expresses to
two Baha'is that he or she believes in Baha'u'llah, then that person
is a Baha'i.
This declaration is to be considered the beginning of a maturation
process. The person is to be welcomed as a Baha'i in the local
community regardless of their understanding of the ranks of
Baha'u'llah, the Bab, or Abdu'l-Baha, regardless if their lifestyle
is in contradiction with Baha'i laws, and regardless if the only
thing they know about the administrative order is that one exists.
The two people who witnessed the oral declaration are to invite
the new Baha'i to the following 19 Day Feast, to contribute to the
Fund, and generally to participate in all aspects of local Baha'i
community life.
The two Baha'is who witnessed the declaration are also to
inform the local spiritual assembly of the declaration (or National
Spiritual Assembly if there is no local one) and see if the new
Baha'i is willing to fill in a census form which basically requests
information for the national database program (name, address,
phone number, date of birth, and whether they speak French,
Dutch, or German). If for some reason that do not wish to fill
out the form, then the necessary information can be transmitted
by the secretary of the group or local assembly to the National
Spiritual Assembly. No Baha'i can vote for an assembly or
delegates or be elected, though, until the National Spiritual
Assembly has received and processed this information.
The local spiritual assembly (or National Spiritual Assembly if
there is no local one) is responsible for warmly welcoming the
new Baha'i into the community (e.g. during the social portion of
a Feast or at a special meeting). With flexibility and wisdom it is
also to guide and encourage the new Baha'i to begin the
transformation process that all Baha'is must undergo.
Sincerely, Loni Bramson-Lerche
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:02:41 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson) (by way of
robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston))
Subject: Re: nobody@replay.com
Dear Margreet,
Re:
"Eudora
has a feature called "redirect" meaning I can redirect a piece of mail, to
someone, it shows I sent it on my system to that person, but the person who
recieves the mail only sees the original sender as the one who has sent the
mail and not me... "
Using eudora I am 'redirecting' your letter to talisman...it seems my name
is included in 'from'...
Robert.
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 15:49:08 EST
Subject: correction
Thank you John (Arkansas!)
The definition of entropy typo error ".."UNavailable" for useful work...
Science News, April 1, 1995.
We breathe politics, drink politics like the air and water in
the way we relate to one another. It is the American way. This is precisely
why we are given the title "cradle of administration?". Not because
we are good at it. I am sure we understand. Just like Persians do.
It is so obvious right here on talisman. Is explanation needed?
Look at America! Do you see how everyone demands their own
right, especially when it hits their own turf? "You scratch my back
I'll scratch yours. Never mind principles. Do what feels
right. It is my way, or no way. Too bad you feel that way.
It is my right. That's your problem."
These are sentences uttered, everyday, everywhere in America.
At the moment, I personally don't care if the roof caves in.
"People deserve the rulers they get". Is it from the Qur'an?
lovingly,
p.s. NCSU talisman subscribers did not get the message from "Who is this person?
"
Just wanted to let Professor Walbridge know.
Quanta Dawn-Light...(*_*)
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:02:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The Future of God's Faith (fwd)
Dear friends--
It is possible that this message was forwarded by a representative of a
group that is based -- or used to be -- right here in Albuquerque, New
Mexico. There is a Persian gentleman who lives in Rio Rancho (a city
adjacent to Albuquerque) who claims to be a Manifestation of God -- I
can't remember either his name or the name of his group. Apparently he
was one time invloved with the Ekcankar people and later had some kind of
a profound mystical (or delusionary) experience at the Temple in Wilmette
which induced him to make his claims to divinity. He says he is the next
Manifestation after Baha'u'llah.
Mark, I remember you and I were talking about this guy on the phone one
time. Do you know anything more about him?
Nima
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:05:51 -0700 (MST)
From: "S. INDIOGINE"
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The Third Manifestation
On Mon, 8 Jan 1996, Ahang Rabbani wrote:
[snip]
> But, Baha'u'llah is the Third Manifestation. So says the Qur'an
> (Sura of woman). According to Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'u'llah referred
> to Himself as the "Third" Manifestation because the Bab and
> Quddus were the First and the Second.
Myself, and likely several other people, would love knowing these
references from the Qur'an and the Writings of the Master.
Thank you Ahang. :-)
Bye,
Eric Indiogine (sindiogi@nmsu.edu), Dept. Civil, Agricultural,
and Geological Engineering, New Mexico State University,
Las Cruces, New Mexico, U.S.A.
## True loss is for him whose days have been ##
## spent in utter ignorance of his self ##
-* Baha'u'llah, Words of Wisdom #21 *-
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:46:49 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: banshee among doves...
Talismans,
(1) The wise Saman commented that the Faust crisis brought unity to
Talisman, and as I read about these letters from "Nobody" I get a similar
sense of the existence of a commonality far deeper than the strangeness we
have often felt in relation to one another...
Other factors increasing Talismanic unity have been Juan's enterprising
e-zine idea; an assumption of a more positive, future-oriented attitudes; a
sense that healing processes are afoot; an easing of adversarial stances in
relation to the institutions...
If this continues, I'll have to have therapy in order to rid myself of
redundant conflict addiction... ;-} No point in remaining a banshee
among doves...
However.....
(2) Ahang said that 'Abdu'l-Baha described Baha'u'llah as the "third
Manifestation." Is there a reference for this?
(3) Today it is overcast, drizzly and muggy, here in Dunedin. Summer! In
a few months, we'll be heading into winter, and those of you who are
freezing (esp. on the US east coast, but I suppose also Burl, Margreet and
Jim in the north-west, and John and Linda [et al, incl. those with the
colourful hair] in the mid west) will be heading into summer... Isn't that
thought consoling?
(4) Brent has been quiet. Out in the desert getting a mid-winter sun tan,
I suppose.
Robert.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 96 16:49:03 PST
Subject: RE: nobody@replay.com
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu, jwalbrid
I didn't get one.
Philip
On Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:26:33 -0500 (EST) jwalbrid wrote:
>I have gotten a couple of queries about an e-mail message from
>"nobody@replay.com". This obviously is an account designed to
forward
>e-mail messages in a way that makes the sender anonymous. The
message I
>got was not addressed to Talisman, which leads me to suspect that
some
>lurker sent the message to active participants in Talisman but not
to the
>list itself. Did anybody NOT get it?
>
>As for the content, it was evidently from a follower a Jamsheed
Ma'ani,
>an odd covenant-breaker (Is there any other kind these days?) who
claims
>to be a third Manifestation of God on the grounds that the words
"Baha"
>has three letters in Arabic. Does anybody know anything more about
this
>man and his group than I do?
>
>John Walbridge
>List Owner
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/08/96
Time: 16:49:03
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:25:12 +0100 (MET)
Subject: maturity, embodiment
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Mark,
my feeling that the Universal House of Justice is not
launched into the world instantly mature, and my having
different points of view on various issues, are two separate
things. You contrasted a personal point of view which
changes as the person matures with that of the House of
Justice, implying that the latter does not mature. That
strikes me as improbable, just as a matter of common
sense, tho' I can't think of any texts which indicate either
that the Universal House of Justice does or does not
mature, specifically. There is something from `Abdu'l-Baha
somewhere (unauthenticated text I think) to the effect that
change is the law of the universe: anything not growing is
decaying.
So I tend to assume that the viewpoints which the
Universal House of Justice espouses this year may be
outgrown next year, just like mine. In some cases I hope
that there will be change in particular directions, but that is
another issue. In addition to changing points of view
(maturing in understanding) I think there is room for
maturing in its operations as an institution. From my
experience, specifically in three areas:
- dealing with misfunctioning national assemblies in a way
that corrects errors while supporting the institution
(this is a tricky one, I have no suggestions about how
to do it better)
- clear channels of communication and clarity at all times
about whether a decision is made by the body as
such or by an individual member or subsidiary
institution
- greater coherence between its published policies, eg issued
to National Spiritual Assemblies, and its own
decisions in particular cases. Clearer explanations of
the reasoning behind its general policies and
decisions in particular cases, to the National
Spiritual Assemblies concerned, so that they can
carry out its intentions on the basis of
understanding.
Behind my comments re immaturity (perfectability might
be a better word) is a general vague suspicion of any effort
to make religion constant, as possibly a form of abstracted
idolatory. There is a temptation, instead of accepting that
religion is in constant flux, to say that we need some
constant reference point and Our Religion is it - which is
just another way of making the religion fit our needs,
instead of vice versa.
I agree that maturity and infallibility are two quite
different issues - in fact I thought I made that point myself.
Individuals and institutions can have guidance even while
being immature in really obvious ways. I think of guidance
more in terms of God being with us in our silliness and
sinfulness, rather than God stopping us making mistakes (&
thus stopping us learning). The difference between guidance
and infallibility being perhaps that the latter is unceasing
and perhaps consciously felt?? My background here is
Bonhoeffer's theology, which you may be familiar with.
Re the church as the body of Christ, I also find that an
attractive metaphor. However 'the church' is not the
organization (which did not exist in Paul's time, even as a
concept) but the whole body of believers in a particular
christ-like relationship with one another. It is not embodied
in any institution or any believer. Likewise if the
Manifestation or the Revelation are in a sense embodied in
the Faith, it is not in any particular institution (not even in
the House of Worship, which would be the obvious
candidate for the honour but is also only one facet of the
Revelation as a whole [se PS below]) but in the relationships of love &
unity within the body of the believers. (For that matter
'believers' has to be broadly interpreted, in `Abdu'l-Baha's
sense rather than in terms of registered members). With that
proviso I'm happy to talk about the embodiment of the
spirit of the Twin Manifestations in the Faith(ful).
'Alethology' has me stumped: not in my dictionary at all.
Would it be related to Greek alytheia?
This discussion has led us rather off on a side-track. The
original point you made was that the viewpoints of the
Universal House of Justice in its letter re the Modest
Proposal rumpus were not being absorbed in the discussion
on this list. Which may be true. Whatever may be the ideal
situation, I think it is evident that, at least when talking to
me :-) it is necessary to say what viewpoints of the
Universal House of Justice have not been absorbed and why
it would be reasonable to reconsider. Whether or not an
appeal to authority is theoretically illegitimate, it certainly
presents no ground for discourse. Whatever its limits,
reason does present a common ground of sorts.
Sen
PS Lest the dervishes (defined somewhere as those who are
constant in worship) jump on me here I should justify myself. It
is true there's a passage where `Abdu'l-Baha says:
Then know thou, verily, that Luminous Man, the lights
of whose Face dazzle the eyes and before whom thou
knelt down when thou sawest His light, is the Greatest
Name, the Ancient Light, the Honorable Temple! (Tablets
of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas pp 682-3)
Which would indicate that 'the Honorable Temple' (remember
this was written to an early American Baha'i at a time when the
temple project was underway) is the Luminous Man, who, for the
reference to the Greatest Name, can in this dispensation be none
other than Baha'u'llah in his station as Manifestation.
Another relevant quote:
For this reason there have been churches and temples in
all the divine religions; but the real Collective Centers are
the Manifestations of God, of Whom the church or temple
is a symbol and expression. That is to say, the
Manifestation of God is the real divine temple and
Collective Center of which the outer church is but a
symbol. (Promulgation of Universal Peace*, page 163)
There seems to be a kind of logic relating to the Mashriq as the
house of the Maiden: the Mashriq is the body of the
Manifestation (the human/material temple) and _therefore_ the
house in which the maiden/spirit dwells? So can we identify the
Mashriq as the institution which PRIMARILY represents the
Manifestation?
The same visionary passage which refers to the Masriq as the
house of the Maiden includes a description by `Abdu'l-Baha of a
female figure who is the Law of God, and who sits BESIDE the
Mashriq. I've always thought she represents the House of Justice,
and yet she is I suppose the 'same' Maid who dwells in the
House of Worship (both references are in Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha
Abbas pp 680-681). So it looks rather difficult to identify the
spirit of the Manifestation with one or other institution to the
exclusion of the other.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 14:33:59 PST8PDT
Subject: Surplus Powerlessness (book report) + Turncoat #2/ was e-zine
Greetings Blessed Ones*,
(*remember Tintin in Nepal, where he meets the yeti?)
I didn't read any messages over the weekend, what an avalanche
of messages on monday morning! Juan's e-zine sounds AWESOME,
perfect title!!!
I had lunch with Peggy Caton saturday as she is in N. Calif. for
her annual Yoga retreat, but there wasn't time for me to try to
drag her over here to the office to type in a greeting to the
talismanians.
We talked about her involvement in LA study group, Kalimat,
Dialogue, etc., and she had some interesting ideas about conflict
within the community, elites, general Baha'i public, reforms,
community evolution/therapy and all that stuff.
As a result of the my conversation with Peggy, I will definitely
be ordering Michael Learner's "Surplus Powerlessness" and reading
it soon. For the uninitiated, Learner is a really cool 60s
activist that has worked to put the failures of left/progressive
social-political movements in a context of spirituality and
community. On the other hand, he excoriates the so called religious
conservatives for advocating bad theology!
Learner is down on individualism/materialism. He has a magazine
called "Tikkun Journal" (or some such) and was asked to consult
with the Clinton's (about cultural matters?) at the start of their
administration. One of his other projects (1-2 years of interviews
with hundreds of people all over the US) resulted in a book called
"Jewish Renewal" that maps out how/why the baby boomers started to
abandon Jewish religious life during the 60s/70s as Jewish culture
became dominated by assimilation into the US mainstream after WWII
(pursuit of individualism/materialism). Sound familiar?
Learner's latest book (coauthored) is on racism, maybe a Jewish/
African American dialogue?
Given the huge respect and appreciation that I personally have for
all the Dialogue/Kalimat people and their work and sacrifices over
the years, and given Tony Lee's opinion regarding dropping the
discussion, and also given that I want to be as supportive of Steve
Scholl's efforts toward reconciliation with the community as
possible, I'll abandon my tact at this point.
(actually I don't have much tact left *to* abandon, I should have
written "abandon my tactic" or "abandon my tack"? .)
Thought I would end my "brain dump" by suggesting that an e-zine
category for articles about "healing" might be appropriate, both
wholistic and traditional medical as well as emotional/spiritual
therapy. Is this part of category #3 (socio-economic affairs)?
Seems that most of the therapists who subscribe don't hang around
on talisman very long (Counsellor Birkland, Mary Radpour, some
folks in SF that subscribed after the ABS conference, who else have
I forgotten?).
Bye,
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
ps, Congratulations to the Belgians (home of Tintin)!!! I have
always thought that getting rid of declaration cards might help,
they didn't need them during Abdu'l-Baha's time or earlier in the
history of the faith did they?
> Date sent: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:43:36 +1300 (NZDT)
> To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
> From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
> Subject: Re: *Interact* e-zine
> Juan wrote:
>
> >I need alternating columnists in at least the following categories:
> >
> >1. religion, religious dialogue, mysticism and ecumenism
> >2. human rights
> >3. socio-economic affairs (labor, liberation theology, etc.)
> >4. Gender, feminism, sexuality
> >5. race, ethnicity and multiculturalism
> >6. Middle East and Persian Affairs
> >7. ecology and Green issues
> >8. United Nations, globalism, war; and peace movements
> >9. Baha'i thought and history
> >10. Baha'i community affairs
> >11. Teaching the Faith (Baha'i missiology)
> >12. Book reviews
> >
>
> If one wished to write an article on art or philosophy or science or
> psychology or semiotics or literature or... which category or categories
> would one try to fit into...? Are there some branches of
> knowledge/scholarship which are not of e-zine interest?
>
> Robert.
>
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:35:21 +0100 (MET)
Subject: from Sonja: response to Dan
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Dan,
Thanks for keeping us in touch with what is happening, re: the effects
of the Letter from the UHJ.
Bill sounds like a very sound person, and reading his letter, made me
realise what a saint you are, and perhaps "blessed" in that you are still a
Bahai and are open about your sexuality.
I kept thinking how I would feel if a letter from the UHJ, urged me to
stop meeting formally others with a similiar disposition to myself, when
the purpose of those meetings was networking, support and an attempt
to find a Bahai way through all this.
It would be worse than if a letter from the UHJ asked that Talisman be
closed -as painful as that would be.
I've only known a few Bahais who were homosexuals and none of them
could talk about it as openly as you have done, and I wonder if they
would have remained Bahais if they could have or at least had contact
with other homosexual Bahais.
This is not say that I would have ever expected the UHJ to endorse
homosexuality, but I guess I am disappointed that the letter focusses on
condemning homosexuality, and what I find more painful, it
discriminates against a group of people.
Lots of love,
Sonja
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:26:12 +0100 (MET)
Subject: natural prayer
To: talisman@indiana.edu
RE: prayer as a natural tendency:
...gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that thereby some
results might be produced, some fruits gathered, the lamp
of everlasting life ignited and the gifts of the Lord of the
Kingdom be manifest, so that thou mayest accomplish
again, with great yearning and exaltation, the worship of
the Lord of Hosts.
Which seems to mean that the accompishment of an act of
worship can require conscious effort and persistence. I find
the 'again' interesting: does it refer perhaps to re-learning
the truths about the spiritual path known to previous
religions, or to a primal act of worship in the time outside
of time before creation?
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 17:40:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The Future of God's Faith (fwd)
On Mon, 8 Jan 1996, Sadra wrote:
> Dear friends--
>
> It is possible that this message was forwarded by a representative of a
> group that is based -- or used to be -- right here in Albuquerque, New
> Mexico.
I have not seen this message, but based on the information that has been
posted here, it seems likely that this come from one of the following:
1) John Carre, a former-follower of Jamshed Ma'ani, who still
believes that another Manifestation must/will appear in the immediate future.
2) A follower of Leland Jensen, whose claims have been
continually escalating and whose followers are rather zealous in sharing
is message with Baha'is and others when the opportunities present themselves.
I say this because, according to what has been posted here, the message
indicates that the Manifestation is about to appear; hence, this would
not likely come from someone who has already made such open claims.
If someone wants to forward this message to me, I will endeavor to
identify the individual/group from which it came.
Richard Hollinger
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:26:52 +0100 (MET)
Subject: LONG: design of mashriq
To: talisman@indiana.edu
***** ATTACHMENT: mashriq.6a2 *****
One of the friends has asked me for some references relevant to the design
of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar. I enclose a first selection and invite
Talismanites to contribute their suggestions. Among other things, I
am looking for references to nine sides, nine doors etc.
I will compile the responses and resend the more complete version
to those who request it. I would also love to see some brainstorming about
appropriate Mashriq designs for particular places - ie thinking aloud about
what the Mashriq for your community would look like. Arts Dialogue is in
principle interested in publishing such musing: architecture has been a
much neglected art in AD.
Sen
-----------------------------------------------------------
1. SOLE PURPOSE
2. THE MASHRIQ IS NOT NECESSARILY A SPECIALLY-BUILT STRUCTURE
2.1 It may incorporate existing elements
3. GROUNDS AND SURROUNDS
3.1 Some provision for ablutions will be necessary
3.2 Associated institutions
3.3 The Haziratu'l-Quds may be positioned beside the Mashriq, although
it is not listed as a dependency it is spoken of as under the shadow
of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar
4. INTERIOR
4.1 Music & accoustics
5. STRUCTURE
5.1 The House in Ishqabad may be a model
5.2 Meeting places within the building
------------------------------------------------------------
1. SOLE PURPOSE:
QUESTION: Concerning mosques, chapels and temples.
ANSWER: Whatever hath been constructed for the
worship of the one true God, such as mosques,
chapels and temples, must not be used for any
purpose other than the commemoration of His
Name. This is an ordinance of God, and he who
violateth it is verily of those who have transgressed.
(Aqdas: Questions and Answers, page 134)
Thou hast asked about places of worship and the
underlying reason therefor. The wisdom in raising up such
buildings is that at a given hour, the people should know it
is time to meet, and all should gather together, and,
harmoniously attuned one to another, engage in prayer;
with the result that out of this coming together, unity and
affection shall grow and flourish in the human heart.
(Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, pp. 94-95)
2. THE MASHRIQ IS NOT NECESSARILY A SPECIALLY-BUILT STRUCTURE:
In reality, the radiant, pure hearts are the Mashrak-el-Azcar
and from them the voice of supplication and
invocation continually reacheth the Supreme Concourse.
I ask God to make the heart of every one of you a
temple of the Divine Temples and to let the lamp of
the great guidance be lighted therein; and when the
hearts find such an attainment, they will certainly exert
the utmost endeavor and energy in the building of the
Mashrak-el-Azcar; thus may the outward express the
inward, and the form (or letter) indicate the meaning
(or reality). (Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 678)
God willing, in all the
states of America in the future there will be erected
Temples with infinite architectural beauty, art, with
pleasing proportion and handsome and attractive appearances;
especially in New York. But for the present,
be ye satisfied with a rented place. (Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha
Abbas p 437)
Communicate with all parts of Persia; write replies to the letters which
are sent to you, with all joy, happiness, fragrance and
spirituality; because the friends of God in Persia are
all rejoiced in commemorating you in the meetings and
assemblies, in houses and Mashrak-el-Azcars. (Tablets
of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 12)
Inform the maid-servant of God, who prepared her
home as a [temporary] Mashrak-el-Azcar, that this
service was accepted in the Kingdom of ABHA. (Tablets
of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 149)
In respect to the Mashrak-el-Azcar: Brevity must
now be observed; that is, as much as possible endeavor
should be made so that by the assistance of all the
friends and the sincerity of your intentions it may become
instituted and built in Chicago even though it
be not possible to build a most solid, lofty and great
(edifice). Whatever is now possible should be erected. (Tablets
of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 418)
This is a matter of the utmost significance. If the erection
of the House of Worship in a public place would arouse the
hostility of evil-doers, then the meeting must, in every
locality, be held in some hidden place. Even in every
hamlet, a place must be set aside as the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar,
and even though it be underground.
(Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, page 95)
It has the same importance as the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar in Ishqabad,
Caucasus, Russia, the first one built there. In Persia there are
many; some are houses which have been utilized for the purpose,
others are homes entirely devoted to the divine Cause, and in some
places temporary structures have been erected. In all the cities of
Persia there are Mashriqu'l-Adhkars, but the great dawning point
was founded in Ishqabad. It possesses superlative importance because
it was the first Mashriqu'l-Adhkar built.
(Promulgation of Universal Peace, page 71)
Even if, in some
small village, a house was designated as the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar,
it produced a marked effect; how much greater
would be the impact of one especially raised up.
(Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, page 96)
Say: The Mashriqu'l-Adhkar is each and every building which
hath been erected in cities and villages for the
celebration of My praise. Such is the name by which it
hath been designated before the throne of glory, were
ye of those who understand.
(The Kitab-i-Aqdas, page 61)
2.1 It may incorporate existing elements:
I wrote a long Visitation Tablet for him and sent
it with other papers to Persia. His burial site is one of the
holy places where a magnificent Mashriqu'l-Adhkar must
be raised up. If possible, the actual arch of the royal
palace should be restored and become the House of Worship.
(Memorials of the Faithful, page 20)
3. GROUNDS AND SURROUNDS
O servant of Baha'!
Thy letter written to his honor, Mirza ........,
with the enclosed map of the ground of the Mashrak-el-Azcar,
hath been seen.
The place is suitable, but if it were possible to have
a wider piece of ground, so that the building should
stand in the middle, surrounded by a flower garden, it
would be better and more pleasing; otherwise, if this is
not possible, the building on the present ground is also
permissible. (Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 127-8)
The Mashriqu'l-Adhkar in Ishqabad is almost completed.
It is centrally located, nine avenues
leading into it, nine gardens, nine fountains; all the arrangement
and construction is according to the principle and proportion
of the number nine. It is like a beautiful bouquet. Imagine a very
lofty, imposing edifice surrounded completely by gardens of variegated
flowers, with nine avenues leading through them, nine
fountains and pools of water. Such is its matchless, beautiful design.
... I hope the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar in Chicago will be like this. Endeavor
to have the grounds circular in shape. If possible, adjust and
exchange the plots in order to make the dimensions and boundaries
circular. The Mashriqu'l-Adhkar cannot be triangular in shape.
It must be in the form of a circle.
(Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 71-72)
Its various avenues of approach, all converging towards the central
Hall beneath its dome, (Baha'i Administration, page 184)
3.1 Some provision for ablutions will be necessary:
As to the obligatory prayer (to be said three times
a day): Each one must say his prayer alone by himself,
and this is not conditional on a private place;
that is, both at home and in the worshipping-place,
which is a gathering-place, it is allowable for one to
say his prayer; but each person must say his prayer by
himself (i. e., not in company with others who might
recite the same words and continue the same postures
together at the same time). (Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 464)
3.2 Associated institutions:
The Mashriqu'l-Adhkar is one of the most vital
institutions in the world, and it hath many subsidiary
branches. Although it is a House of Worship, it is also connected
with a hospital, a drug dispensary, a traveller's
hospice, a school for orphans, and a university for advanced
studies. Every Mashriqu'l-Adhkar is connected with these
five things. My hope is that the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar will
now be established in America, and that gradually the
hospital, the school, the university, the dispensary and the
hospice, all functioning according to the most efficient and
orderly procedures, will follow. Make these matters known
to the beloved of the Lord, so that they will understand how
very great is the importance of this `Dawning-Point of the
Remembrance of God.' The Temple is not only a place
for worship; rather, in every respect is it complete and
whole.
(Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, pp. 99-100,
Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 627)
The auxiliary buildings of the House of Worship
should likewise be erected there: the hospital, the schools
and university, the elementary school, the refuge for the
poor and indigent; also the haven for orphans and the
helpless, and the travelers' hospice.
(Memorials of the Faithful, page 20)
The House of Worship forms the central edifice of the
Mashriqu'l-Adhkar (the Dawning-place of the Praise of
God), a complex which, as it unfolds in the future, will
comprise in addition to the House of Worship a number of
dependencies dedicated to social, humanitarian, educational,
and scientific pursuits. [Baha'i Administration p. 184]
... Shoghi Effendi envisages that the House of
Worship and its dependencies "shall afford relief to the
suffering, sustenance to the poor, shelter to the wayfarer,
solace to the bereaved, and education to the ignorant".
(Aqdas: Notes, pp. 190-191)
It cannot afford lasting satisfaction
and benefit to the worshiper himself, much less to humanity
in general, unless and until translated and transfused into that
dynamic and disinterested service to the cause of humanity which
it is the supreme privilege of the Dependencies of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar
to facilitate and promote. (Baha'i Administration 185)
3.3 The Haziratu'l-Quds may be positioned beside the Mashriq, although it is
not listed as a dependency it is
spoken of as under the shadow of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar:
The woman sitting at the side of the Temple is the law of God,
which will soon dispel all veils and its beauty will appear,
after which it shall be established forever and ever.
(Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p. 680)
The seat round which its spiritual, its humanitarian and
administrative activities will cluster are the
Mashriqu'l-Adhkar and its Dependencies.
(World Order of Baha'u'llah, pp. 156-157)
Nor will the exertions, no matter how disinterested and strenuous,
of those who within the precincts of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar will be
engaged in administering the affairs of the future Baha'i Commonwealth,
fructify and prosper unless they are brought into close and daily
communion with those spiritual agencies centering in and radiating
from the central Shrine of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar. Nothing short of
direct and constant interaction between the spiritual forces emanating
from this House of Worship centering in the heart of the Mashriqu'l-
Adhkar, and the energies consciously displayed by those who administer its
affairs in their service to humanity can possibly provide the necessary
agency capable of removing the ills that have so long and so
grievously afflicted humanity. ... And of all the institutions that
stand associated with His Holy Name, surely none save the institution
of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar can most adequately provide the
essentials of Baha'i worship and service, both so vital to the regeneration
of the world. Therein lies the secret of the loftiness, of the
potency, of the unique position of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar as one of
the outstanding institutions conceived by Baha'u'llah. (Baha'i Administration
p. 186)
the institution of the Haziratu'l-Quds - the seat of the
Baha'i National Assembly and pivot of all Baha'i administrative
activity in future ... Complementary in its functions to
those of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar - an edifice exclusively reserved for
Baha'i worship - this institution, whether local or national, will, as its
component parts, such as the Secretariat, the Treasury, the Archives,
the Library, the Publishing Office, the Assembly Hall, the Council
Chamber, the Pilgrims' Hostel, are brought together and made jointly
to operate in one spot, be increasingly regarded as the focus of all
Baha'i administrative activity, and symbolize, in a befitting manner,
the ideal of service animating the Baha'i community in its relation alike
to the Faith and to mankind in general.
From the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, ordained as a house of worship by
Baha'u'llah in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the representatives of Baha'i communities,
both local and national, together with the members of their
respective committees, will, as they gather daily within its walls at the
hour of dawn, derive the necessary inspiration that will enable them
to discharge, in the course of their day-to-day exertions in the
Haziratu'l-Quds - the scene of their administrative activities - their
duties and responsibilities as befits the chosen stewards of His Faith.
(God Passes By, pp. 339-340)
under the shadow of the first Mashriqu'l-Adhkar of the West ... initial steps
have been taken which must eventually culminate in the establishment, in all
their splendor and power, of the national administrative seats of the
Baha'i communities established in these countries.
(God Passes By, page 340)
a fast evolving administrative order, functioning under the shadow of,
and in such close proximity to, the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, must demand,
is the object of my incessant and fervent prayer.
(Messages to America, page 24)
4. INTERIOR:
O people of the world! Build ye houses of worship
throughout the lands in the name of Him Who is the
Lord of all religions. Make them as perfect as is possible
in the world of being, and adorn them with that which
befitteth them, not with images and effigies. Then,
with radiance and joy, celebrate therein the praise of
your Lord, the Most Compassionate. Verily, by His
remembrance the eye is cheered and the heart is filled
with light.
(The Kitab-i-Aqdas, pp. 29-30)
However, in the Temple (Mashrak-el-Azcar) the blessed picture
must never be placed (or hung) on the wall. This
you should know. (Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 337)
... the central House of Baha'i worship, enshrined within the
Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, will gather within its chastened walls,
in a serenely spiritual atmosphere, (Baha'i Administration p. 184)
K168. Ye have been prohibited from making use of
pulpits. Whoso wisheth to recite unto you the verses of
his Lord, let him sit on a chair placed upon a
dais # 154
... In comments on this law, Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi
Effendi have made it clear that in the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar
(where sermons are prohibited and only the words of Holy
Scripture may be read) the reader may stand or sit, and if
necessary to be better heard, may use a low moveable
platform, but that no pulpit is permitted.
(Aqdas: Notes, page 237)
It is meet for such as shall be able in the religion of the Bayan to
erect 18 new mosques in the Name of the Letters of the Living of Him
whom God shall manifest. and I seem to see lamps suspended therein
according to the Number of Mustaghath (=2001).
(A Summary of the Persian Bayan V:2, in Selections from the Writings
of the Bab p. 361)
An indication of the direction of the Qiblah would be helpful for those
saying obligatory prayers in the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar (see passage from
Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 464, in section 2.1 above):
the direction of the Qiblih is a "fixed requirement for the recitation
of obligatory prayer" (Q and A
14 and 67). (Aqdas: Notes, page 169)
4.1 Music & accoustics:
Music is regarded as a praiseworthy science at the
Threshold of the Almighty, so that thou mayest chant verses at large
gatherings and congregations in a most wondrous melody and raise such
hymns of praise at the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar to enrapture the Concourse on
High.
(Music, page 76)
Teach your children the verses revealed from the
heaven of majesty and power, so that, in most
melodious tones, they may recite the Tablets of the All-Merciful
in the alcoves within the Mashriqu'l-Adhkars.
(The Kitab-i-Aqdas, page 74)
5. STRUCTURE
The Houses of Worship are all to have a dome 'at this time'. (The Light
of Divine Guidance, p. 247.)
Note the reference to 'alcoves' under 'music and acoustics' above.
There now remains the important consideration of a
design for the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar. It does not matter
whether it is executed by a Baha'i or a non-Baha'i architect,
but the essential thing is that it must be beautiful and
dignified. There must be none of this hideous, exaggerated,
bizarre style, which one sees in many modern buildings. It is
not befitting for our House of Worship. He thinks that you
should impress this on any architects wishing to submit
drawings. The essentials of the design, as stipulated by
Abdu'l-Baha are that the building should be nine-sided, and
circular in shape. Aside from this, the architect is not
restricted in any way in choosing his style of design.
(Light of Divine Guidance Vol.1, pp. 215-216)
In the days when Abdu'l-Baha was urging the American
Baha'is to build the first Mashriqu'l-Adhkar of the western
world, He repeatedly emphasized that it could be a modest
building, and that the important thing was the spiritual
element that this House of Worship in the name of
Baha'u'llah should be raised in the heart of America. The
same thing applies now to your Temple in Germany. Size
and pretentiousness are not important. The important thing
is that the building should be speedily erected, and be a
financial possibility, not placing, as the American Temple, a
terrible strain on the friends for years to come.
(Light of Divine Guidance Vol.1, pp. 235-236)
...it is very bad to begin to build a house and then not finish it
in the most perfect way of which it is capable, for then it cries
out to God for a curse on the maker who has failed to perfect it.
So all doors etc. are to be made lofty, that those who are tall may
be able to enter without stooping. In the day of Him whom God shall
manifest nothing should exist which may cause him sorrow.
(Summary of the Persian bayan, VI 3, Selections from the Writings of
the Bab p 376)
5.1 The House in Ishqabad may be a model:
It was during these times that the plan of the first Mashriqu'l-Adhkar
of the Baha'i world was conceived by Him [`Abdu'l-Baha], and its
construction undertaken by His followers in the city of Ishqabad in Turkistan.
(God Passes By, page 268)
The edifice itself, the foundation stone of which was laid in the
presence of General Krupatkin, the governor-general of Turkistan,
who had been delegated by the Czar to represent him at the ceremony,
has thus been minutely described by a Baha'i visitor from the West:
"The Mashriqu'l-Adhkar stands in the heart of the city; its high
dome standing out above the trees and house tops being visible for
miles to the travelers as they approach the town. It is in the center
of a garden bounded by four streets. In the four corners of this
enclosure are four buildings: one is the Baha'i school; one is the
traveler's house, where pilgrims and wayfarers are lodged; one is for
the keepers, while the fourth one is to be used as a hospital. Nine
radial avenues approach the Temple from the several parts of the
grounds, one of which, the principal approach to the building, leads
from the main gateway of the grounds to the principal portal of the
Temple." "In plan," he further adds, "the building is composed of
three sections; namely, the central rotunda, the aisle or ambulatory
which surrounds it, and the loggia which surrounds the entire building.
It is built on the plan of a regular polygon of nine sides. One
side is occupied by the monumental main entrance, flanked by
minarets - a high arched portico extending two stories in height
recalling in arrangement the architecture of the world famous Taj
Mahal at Agra in India, the delight of the world to travelers, many
of whom pronounce it to be the most beautiful temple in the world.
Thus the principal doorway opens toward the direction of the Holy
land. The entire building is surrounded by two series of loggias -
one upper and one lower - which opens out upon the garden giving a
very beautiful architectural effect in harmony with the luxuriant
semi-tropical vegetation which fills the garden... The interior
walls of the rotunda are treated in five distinct stories. First, a series
of nine arches and piers which separate the rotunda from the ambulatory.
Second, a similar treatment with balustrades which separate
the triforium gallery (which is above the ambulatory and is reached
by two staircases in the loggias placed one on either side of the main
entrance) from the well of the rotunda. Third, a series of nine blank
arches filled with fretwork, between which are escutcheons bearing
the Greatest Name. Fourth, a series of nine large arched windows.
Fifth, a series of eighteen bull's eye windows. Above and resting on a
cornice surmounting this last story rises the inner hemispherical shell
of the dome. The interior is elaborately decorated in plaster relief
work... The whole structure impresses one by its mass and strength."
(God Passes By, pp. 300-301)
5.2 Meeting places within the building:
With reference to the matter of meeting in the Foundation Hall
of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, I feel that the Foundation Hall should
serve the purpose both of devotional gatherings where the revealed
Word of God is read and chanted, and meetings at which subjects
strictly Baha'i in character are presented, propounded and discussed.
I have no doubt that every conscientious and thoughtful Baha'i will
scrupulously and at all times observe the commandment of Baha'u'llah
and the instructions of Abdu'l-Baha relative to the maintenance
of the sacredness, the dignity, and the universality of an edifice that
will in time become God's universal House of Worship.
(Baha'i Administration, page 77)
=END=
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 16:35:13
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Juan's Train
As I understand the current communications of the House of Justice,
items transmitted electronically do not need to be reviewed. If the
House changes or clarified that guidance, we will then act on the new
guidance.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Juan's Train
Author: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer) at INTERNET
Date: 1/7/96 1:39 AM
Juan has raised interesting suggestions regarding the resurrection
shuffle with the Dialog affair -- you can't always get closure by reopening
wounds and too much introspection often reveals we are more shallow than
the limitless ocean of the Revelation we want as our own.
The suggestion of doing Talisman as a digest to which one subscribes makes
it more a magazine and less an ongoing conversation between e-mailing
individuals. I "guess" this is what Juan is up to with his suggestion:
transform a private multi-participant conversation into an Electronic
Magazine with a subscriber base. Tah-Dah!
Now -- does every issue of this Magazine to which folks can subscribe needs
be submitted for review before electronic publication? That, of course, is
the bait for the switch. Sure...Mr. Walbridge could have columnists (I'll do
pop culture and satire, Derek will do cat cartoons and book reviews, Linda
will do wildlife adventures, Juan will do historical mysteries, Sen&family
will do arts and crafts, Jim will do spiritual destiny devinations, Tony
will do anger management, Mark Foster will help us understand why we can't
understand each other, Terry can do community development and recipes, in
fact, each subscriber can have their published say and poor Robert Stockman
can review each and every issue of Talisman Magazine.)
Do you really want to do this to Rob?
I don't think that's the idea...but you see where the suggestion leads --
conceptual showdown at the theoretical corral -- when is a digest a
publication and when is a digest subject to review?
It could be a *very* gradual conceptual shift -- if Linda's solid phlegmatic
spouse offered a digest option by request as a matter of convenience to a
limited number of "special needs" cases as a matter of electronic courtesy
-- sort of the cyberspace equivelent of handicapped parking spots -- and
kept the e-mail base as the conversation itself, then should review be an
issue, it would be the digest that would be nuked issue, not the e-list
conversation. I know this sounds weird, but I think this is exactly the
train ride in Juan's fantasy park -- pushing that send button could be
pushing the envelope. Am I correct Prof?
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:56:33 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Quddus as 3rd
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Re Three Manifestations:
this bit from Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha 678-10 may be relevant.
O thou who art attracted by the Fragrances of God!
Give thanks unto God for having revealed unto thee,
in visions, the mysteries of His Kingdom and for having
strengthened thee to attain certain revelations which
show thine utmost attraction and constancy unto this
great Cause.
Verily, the three birds are the three holy souls. The
one on the right is His Holiness the great Bab, the one
on the left is His Honor the Khudoos, the glorious
soul, and the great bird in the middle is the Greatest
Name. The light shining from the Supreme Horizon
is the Beauty of El-Abha. These birds descended from
an infinite height and the nearer they came to earth the
more their majesty and glory became manifest. All nations
were promised by a sure promise and were awaiting
with anxiety and longing the coming of the Promised
One. The two birds accompanying the great bird in
the center signifies that the Bab and His Honor the
Khudoos were both under the wings of the Greatest
name. As those birds descended and their shadows extended
vertically over the expectants, as the sun approacheth
the zenith at noontide, at this time thou hast
seen a majestic being in the form of man upon the back
of the huge bird in the center. This person in the
human form is the "divine station" mentioned in the
Bible: "Let us make man in our image after our likeness."
And the divine lights were reflected from the
reality of the Greatest Name. Although this station
is far from the minds and understandings, yet its lights
are apparent, its rays reflected and its brilliancy manifested
throughout the universe.
The white garments signify holy dignity and a station
sanctified from color, i.e., free from the universal
conditions and material qualities. That luminous countenance,
manifested in beauty, signifieth that the divine
lights shone forth from the human form, which were
reflected and descended upon thee, dazzling the eyes of
those who were perceiving it as the sun dazzles the
eyes of those who try to look upon it. That divine form
manifested itself in America and entered the great
Temple which shall soon be constructed therein.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:53:14 -0500
Message-Id: <960108185312_110316869@emout05.mail.aol.com>
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: slabanow@s-cwis.unomaha.edu
Dear All ,
The past year I have been contemplating how the Bahai community came
to be equated with Administration and thereby Administration came to be
percieved as the purpose and center of "Community". What follows is one of a
series of reflections on this issue .
There is an historical context that Shoghi Effendi , as all of us, lived
and wrote within . In relation to the above question this is the context in
which I percieve Shoghi Effendi's efforts.
Shoghi Effendi became Guardian in a setting in which the Administrative
institutions as we know them did not exist. They had not been established yet
in any formal sense. Shoghi Effendi had as a task in front of him to first of
all "modernize" the Bahai faith . That is he had to establish formal
governing institutions with clear boundaries . This is an eminently modern
excercise ; nation -building if you will - but one which grows out of and
builds upon modernity to create Post- Modern forms of human community.
The process of state -formation or creation of an administrative system
entails the issue of legitimacy or as Reinhold Bendix once referred to it as
the question of Kings or People: Power and the Mandate to Rule .
Shoghi Effendi as Guardian had a second task . In addition to creating a
bounded community ; an exercise in "modernity", he also had to point the way
to the creation of a civilization that we would now call Post - Modern . I
believe the Guardians writings need to be understood in light of these two
tasks . And it his the pursuit if these two tasks that constitute what I ahve
preciouslt commented constitute his political and spiritual genius. The
combination is an Irfan Republic.
As an example I suggest are his comments related to the authority of the
administrative institutions and the expectation of the "obediance " of the
believers to these institutions. This ought not be understood in a classic
Aristotleian framework of excluded middles. That is the issue here is not one
of obediance versus disobediance. The issue is one of establishing the
sociological " existence and therefore " legitimacy" of the administrative
institutions. The Guardians remarks along these lines are "legitimacy"
issues not primarilly odedience / disobedience polarities.
At the same time we find a significant number of his writings which refer
to the "unfettered right of the believers to self -expression " that the
administration was not an end in itself but a means to a more "effective
presentation of the cause." These are but two fairly well known remarks of
the Guardian there are many other examples beyond the scope of this post .
I suggest that what the Guardian was attemting to do was establish the
legitimacy of admin . institutions thereby creating a framework from which
community could implement the vision of Baha ullah which affirms aspects of
modernity and transcends it as well. He was also setting in motion a process
that would transcend modernity and had to constantly remind the champion -
builders of the administrative institutions that this was not an end in
itself . By 1947 he would write that the Cause needs people who not only
loved it but understood the deper implications of it and could relate that to
the world around them .
In the 1920's there was a debate in America , the home of the champion
-builders about the role of the "public" in self government e.g. democracy.
This debate is symbolized by the Lippeman / Dewey debates. Walter Lippeman
argues that the complexity of Modern life was such that the public
effectively did not exist and could not effectively participate in its own
governance. What was necesary was the establishment of "expert systems to
govern on behalf of the people . Dewey argued that ordinary people did have
the capacity to paricipate in self -governance . He argues that through
education , if it were to be focused on preparing the citizenry to fulfill
its responsibliities to democracy , ordinary people could participate in
commmunity governance. Lippeman's view has been the dominant one and echoes
the perception of Hamilton from the revolutionary period . Dewey was arguing
a Jeffersonian position which is echoed by Bahau llah in tablet of Maqsud :
"Man is the supreme Talisman. Lack of a proper education hath , however,
deprived him of that which he doth inherently possess." Every philosophical
democrat on the planet should take heart from Baha u llah's affirmation of
what is at the heart of any meaningful concept of patricipatory democracy .
Shoghi Effendi, by virtue of extending the Bahai community across the
width and breathe of the planet, was creating a network of administrative
bodies which would function as democratically elected forms of what Juan Cole
has called "lay democracy". These bodies are today known as LSA's. He had to
first , due to fewness of numbers, erect National bodies which could focus
resources , human and capital, on this expansion process. All the while the
Guardian was reminding the Bahais that this process was not an end in itself
.he told them the Bahai Faith like all divine religions was "fundamentally
mystic in nature" and that the heart and center of community life was the
Mashriq u l Adhkar.
The American Bahais adopted the Lippeman view of what the Guardian was
trying to do rather then Deweys view.. Thus we have developed a centralized
administrative system which is Hamiltonian rather than Jeffersonian. The
Bahais confused Shoghi Effendi's "legitimacy" creating words with the purpose
of the Faith and did not heed or "hear" his more Jeffersonian remarks . They
operated from an Aristoltelian framework and were unable to hold in tension
the Guardians vision .
Shoghi Effendi's addition to the Feast of a consultative element needs
to be understood , I believe , as an additional attempt to forestall
community equals administration by injecting a dimenson of democracy into
grass roots community development . I think the Universal House of Justice
recognizes this by their reference to the Feast as an activity of "democracy
at the grass roots" in their 1989 ;letter on the Feast .
The sheer fact that the Guardian devised plans to be carried out by
ordinary people and continually called upon ordinary people to arise to meet
them is itself a trstimony to the faith of Shoghi Effendi in ordinary people
to participate in the circumstancs of their governance and most importantly
to be actively involved in the "act" of community creation . This is an
example of post modern participatory democracy in action . I would suggest
that as the administrators of the community effectively adopted a LIppeman /
Hamilton view of this process we have arrived at a situation where
administration is perceived to be central to and eqivalent with community.
Thus we continue to replay "legitimacy" issues "as if" they were the question
with all its associated notions of obedience / disobedience.
I would further suggest that the "legitimacy " building phase of the
Guardians work was completed in a most remarkable fashion with the election
of the Universal House of Justice. As we know the Hands of the Cause
VOLUNTARILLY turned over governance of the community to an elected body and
successfully turned back the last real challenge to the democratic
"legitimacy " of administrative institutions. Now it seems to me we need to
be focused not on questions of "legitimacy" and obedience / disobedience but
on the other half of Shoghi Effendi's project which was the establishment of
post- modern participatory forms of community centered around the "mystical "
nature of the Faith and the centrality of the Mashriqu l Adhkar. The
continued focus on administration pro or con is to be fighting the "last
war" over agian . The battle for institutional legitimacy is over . The
struggle for participatory froms of human community is still raging and I
believe we have something to say to the world if we better understand Baha u
llah and if we better understand the vision of the Guardian which I would
argue is one of a non- oligarchic form of community governance -
participatory democracy - which parallels the non sacradotal character of the
House of Worship - no priestly class .
It sems to me that if the Bahai Faith offers a vision to the world which
affirms aspects of modernity and points to forms of human community which
trancend modernity; a truly post modern order. However if we insist on
fighting the old battles over legitimacy we will reduce ourselves to a
modernist administration wedded to traditionalist notions of authority and
community and therby preclude the possibility of participating in the
creation of a post modern order which Shoghi Effendi understood as the
animating purpose of Baha u llah .
The acronym in the tltle of this post, which would not fit on my screen ,
S E I A P M R D is this : Shoghi Effendi Is A Post Modern Radical Democrat
. Lets hear it for our "true brother Shoghi" a post modern , democratic,
self description for a leader if there ever was one.
warm regards,
Terry
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 15:16:32 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: The Third Letter .some information.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
In regard to the matter of the Third Manifestation or Third Letter .
Two individuals to my knowledge have made this particular claim .
Jamshid Ma'ani , who also calls himself 'The Man ' and 'Sama'u'llah .
His claim is that he is the greatest of the three Manifestations ie
The Bab and Baha'u'llah then himself . John Carre and S. Khoreshi are
among his main supporters .
Also Jamshid Meghnot made a similar claim to Ma 'ani differing in that
he regarded himself as able to redirect the Faith into either a new
line of Guardians or Letters of the same rank as he himself . Meghnot
refering to Ma'ani stated : He lacks knowledge about all the Holy
scriptures , does not have an 'enlightened Book and has misled many
Baha'is.Meghnot himself claimed that his wife was the biggest obstacle
in getting his message over : ' She has torn my writings and thrown
some in the garbage can .'
The Third Letter concept comes from ' The Hidden Words ' number 77 in
the Persian . There is some scriptural justification for considering
that the Baha'i Faith could have been the religion of the Three
Manifestations . Baha'u'llah in one passage warns the people of Iran if
they deal with Him as they dealt with the Bab .
Another was ready to take His place you could therefore argue it was
possible an unawakened Higher Prophet walk the Earth during the
ministry of Baha'u'llah . He was not needed because Baha'u'llah was not
martyred . That is just speculation there is nothing in Scripture to
say it is correct .
I hope the information helps the post from Nobody does include
statements from Meghnot .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:07:03 -0700
To: Bahai-Discuss@BCCA.Org, talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: 'Spiramed' mailing list
To Talismanians,
Just came across the existence of a mailing list called Spiramed,
explained below; thought it might interest some.......Chris N.?, Mark?,
Gordon?, Luanne?, Robert J.?, Bud?, Seena?, or others who may well be
attending the Mysticism conference. I do not belong at the moment, so
can't offer any comments yet. The info states that it is a very active
list.
> / / / / / Spiramed Listserve
>
>Spiramed -- A listserve discussing the spiritual Implications for Medicine
>and Psychology.
>A St. John's University List on a 'spiritual approach in medicine,
>psychology,
>and psychiatry'.
>
>Spiramed means spirituality (spi) and medicine (med). The spiramed mailing
>list is intended for discussions on all aspects of the integration of
>spirituality in medicine, psychology and psychiatry.
>
>This is a wide field which prefigures the medicine of tomorrow that will
>fully integrate spirituality, medicine and psychology.
>
>All therapists are invited to join, but it is also a place for non-therapists
>
>who would like to share their experience or to receive information on such
>topics.
>
>As the body-mind cannot be separated, the creation of a psycho-spiritual
>medicine seems necessary.
>
>Many topics are explored:
>
>- self-knowledge and self-understanding
>- relations between the quest for fulfillment and psycho-physical diseases
>- spiritual approach to anxiety, depression and psychological suffering
>- spiritual approach to psychosis
>- spiritual practices and conventional therapies
>- meditation, psychological treatments and physical diseases
>- spiritual approach to the physical body
>- wisdom, religions and medicine
>- medicine, psychology, and self-realization
>- and many others.
>
>This list is a place for science, meditation, inspiration and creativity.
>
>To join this list: send a message to LISTSERV@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU (in all
>caps!!) with the following command in the body: SUB SPIRAMED (your first
>name last name). This is a very active list. If you join, prepare yourself
>for a full mailbox.
>
> / / / / / Spiramed Conference
>
>A conference of The International Association of Spiritual Psychiatry in
>association with the Foundation for Religious Resources in Psychotherapy,
>will be held in St. Louis, Missouri, January, 26-2,1996.
>
>Presentations
> Jean-Marc Mantel, MD - Meditation, Medicine, and Psychology; Sythesesis
>and Integration
> C. Michael Smith, PhD - Psychosis & Ritual Transformation: Insights from
>Shamanism and the Analytical Psychology of CG Jung
> Jonathan Wagner, PhD - Narrative and the Development of Self: Beyond
>Constructivism and Postmodern Thought
> Bruce H. Friedman, PhD - Ideodynamics & The Boundaries of the Self
> Jim Jarvis, PhD - Past Life Regression Therapy
Henry W. Miller
hwmiller@ccnet.com
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:30:33 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The Third Letter
Concerning the message received by some of us, it may indeed have come from
John Carre--but, as someone has already pointed out, he is not a supporter of
Ma'ani.
Carre has written extensively throughout his Covenant-breaking career,
and his views can be very easily documented and dated. He rejected Ma'ani's
claims many years ago while he was still living in Oregon. He says that
Ma'ani (whom he accepted as a Manifestation of God at the time) came to live
with him. During the course of that visit, it became very clear to Carre
that this man was not a Prophet of God, and he broke with him quite publicly.
At this point, Carre still believes that another Manifestation of God is
coming soon, but that he has not revealed himself yet. He is still a
catastrophist, as well--having picked that up from Remey, while he was
following him in the 1960s. He expects an calamity to destroy much of the
earth soon.
Leland Jensen has recently declared himself to be the return of Jesus
Christ--having gone through a number of other titles in past years. As
Richard says, his claims have escalated steadily. (One does wonder what is
next!) But, it does not seem likely to me that his current followers, under
the circumstances, would be awaiting the coming of another Prophet. So, I
guess that leaves Carre as the most likely suspect.
By the way, neither Ma'ani or Carre currently have any followers. They
are kind of out there as lone wolves.
Hope that this clears up some of the mystery.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: margreet@margreet.seanet.com
Cc: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: nobody@replay.com
Date: 08 Jan 1996 18:21:19 GMT
> it is a security issue I
> need to find out about...
Margreet -
I believe you'll find that in the internet header that is generated, there is
a line 'Apparently sent from: ' when this is done. kThe same line is
generated if you use a return address that is different from the actual
sending address. I do this regularly on one of my acounts because I don't
check that address regularly and want all responses to come to my
commonlink.com email address.
Of course most people don't ever check the internet header.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 16:43:08 -0800
Message-Id: <199601090043.QAA11072@home.humboldt1.com>
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: maturity, embodiment
Dear Sen,
Thank you for your insight.
As a footnote, is this the quote you are alluding to?
"Know that nothing which exists remains in a state of repose - that is
to say, all things are in motion. Everything is either growing or
declining; all things are either coming from nonexistence into being, or
going from existence into nonexistence. So this flower, this hyacinth,
during a certain period of time was coming from the world of nonexistence
into being, and now it is going from being into nonexistence. This state of
motion is said to be essential - that is, natural; it cannot be separated
from beings because it is their essential requirement, as it is the
essential requirement of fire to burn."
('Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, page 233)
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
>Dear Mark,
> --- snip ---
>There is something from `Abdu'l-Baha
>somewhere (unauthenticated text I think) to the effect that
>change is the law of the universe: anything not growing is
>decaying.
> --- snip ---
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
>Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
>6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
> ***
>When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
> and the individuality of each,
> thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 18:41:11
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Ahang Rabbani"
Subject: Re: Review of the Babi materials
I'll wait another week or so to see whether anyone else hs ideas about
this question. I won't write through the office, but as a private
individual.
Another issue that I can imagine coming up is that the Babis are part
of the Baha'i Faith to many people who attack the Faith, especially in
Iran, and therefore perhaps we have to be careful about what we
publish about Babism for that reason.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Review of the Babi materials
Author: "Ahang Rabbani" at INTERNET
Date: 1/7/96 2:52 PM
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Rob,
When your time permits, I think it would be great if your office
could query the World Centre for guidance on this matter,
I understand about the "overlap" issue between the Two
Dispensations, one example of which might be the Writings of the
Bab. That is, we *could* define His Writings as part of this
Dispensation and hence subject to review. Another example is if
indeed the Guardian submitted "The Dawnbreakers" to review, then
one could argue that its because of references to and quotations
from Baha'u'llah. The same goes for God Passes By.
My main query has more to do with historical materials which are
strictly on the Babi period, say narratives of various events
such as Nayriz (1850, 1852), Zanjan (1850), or Fort Tabarsi
(1849).
Is there any difference between pre-1853 (e.g. Lutf-Ali Mirza
Shirazi's) and post-1853 narratives as far as review is
concerned? Could materials written prior to 1853, particularly
segments where they do not refer to Baha'u'llah, be considered
strictly Babi and hence not subject to *Baha'i* review?
And of course I'm also interested to know about articles written
on the Babi Dispensation which do not mention Baha'u'llah nor the
Baha'i Faith. Why subject them to *Baha'i* review?
Thank you in advance for your help in clarifying the boundary of
review.
best wishes, ahang.
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:11:31 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: banshee among doves...
Talismans,
Can't always get it right... (see Quanta's note below, sent per
Steven Collins)... But, then again, maybe my anima is playing up.. ;-}
Robert.
At 7:47 PM 8/1/96, Steven Kolins wrote:
>Who is that female bird fortelling of someone's death, from outside
>the house? Are we not being inconsistent here?
>
>p.s. fllab server is down again, I'm using social server from Steve.
>
>quanta
>
>All I need is Freedom of spirit, Chastity of soul, and Purity of
>heart. A pov is not even secondary.
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jwalbrid@indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: nobody@replay.com
Date: 08 Jan 1996 18:21:40 GMT
> Did anybody NOT get it?
I didn't.
I feel left out.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 18:21:04 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Myth, metaphor, anti-intellectualism & gender.
Dear Friends:
I shoud have anticipated it. My comment that "anti-intellectualism
has been with us ever since the tree of knowledge took root in the Eden of
ignorance" elicited several responses from individuals who infered that by
alluding to the Judeo-Christian creation myth I was implying that women are
the root of ignorance. Please people; read deeper! I did not say the tree
of ignorance took root in the Eden of knowlege.
I was speaking about metaphor and mythology and suggesting that the
conflict between our tendency to condense knowlege in myth and metaphor on
the one hand, and to re-extract it on the other, is at the root of the
problem of anti-intellectualism.
Northrup Frye writes "No rendering of any myth into conceptual
language can serve as a full equivalent of its meaning. A myth may be told
and retold; it may be modified or elaborated, or different patterns may be
discovered in it; and its life is always the poetic life of a story, not the
homiletic life of some illustrated truism. " He further states that the
central theme in all literature is the "quest myth".
I have conclued that the central theme in all myth may be
interpreted as one form of quest or another, and that the Biblical creation
myth, is indeed a quest myth. The ultimate object of the quest is reunion
with the Beloved.
All quest myths consist of 7 stages, alientation separation,
opposition, conquest, attainment, reintegration and finally, transcendence.
The gist of Geoffrey Hartman's essay "Romanticism and
Anti-Self-Consciousness" seems to be that both artistic expression and the
quest for knowlege is a means of coming to terms with the discomforting
realization that the apex of wisdom, and self-knowledge is acknowledgement
and acceptance of one's own vulnerability and an increasing awarness of our
ever abysmal ignorance. ("I testify at this moment to my powerless and to
thy might, to my poverty and to thy wealth"). But, as Conrad put it: "No
man ever understands quite, his own artful dodges to escape the grim shadow
of self-knowlege". Anti-intellectualism is one of those so-called "artful
dodges".
"The ravage of self consciousness" writes Hartman, "and the strong
disease of self analysis often associated with the stage of adolescese"
(which, I believe according the Baha'i writings, we are still in) is a
result of an increase in knowledge. To put it another way, as one becomes
increasingly conscious of an external scheme of things, the tendency to
question one's own place in that scheme of things increases proportionately.
Thus, there is a separation between the self and what is external to it.
This separation is symbolized in the Judeo-Christian creation myth. The
expulsion from the Eden of naivete, innocence and ignorance of Adam and Eve
was a consequence of their first acquisition of knowledge which brought
about self-consciousness of their nakedness. Nakedness may represent
ignorance or vulnerability. Traditionally, religion has provided a means of
reintegrating consciousness and self consciousness by focussing upon the
transcendent.
I read the Biblical creation myth as a story of the "disintigration"
or "dispairing" of the divine attributes in the realm of creation; their
alienation from one another. The ultimate object of humanities quest is
the reintigration or repairing of those attributes in the Eden of reunion,
or, as I put it in a previous post, the knitting back together of the
fragments of "that which is one and simple" or the refocussing on the
"Primal Point" that "the ignorant have multiplied"
During my cultish period prior to enrolling in the Baha'i Faith, I
spent a lot of time reading the obscure and awkward writings of Jewish and
Christian mystics. A common theme, or metaphor, seems to be the
integration of so-called feminine and masculine attributes as a means of
attaining divine unity.
If I am "wandering in the paths of delusion; bereft of discernment",
please tell me.
Arthur Waite, in "The Holy Kabbalah, describes the separation of the
male and female principles with respect to the world of creation in terms of
Jehovah, representing the male principle, and Shekinah, representing the
female principle:
"At the apex of the union between male and female - which is to be
understood only in a spiritual sense, the sex distinction has ceased. . . .
There was a separation between the King (Jehovah) and Matrona (Shekinah) in
respect to the outer (temporal) world and so came about a separation in the
Divine name, for the final "He" was detached and came down on earth, the
source of graces coming with her. Though it be forbidden to separate the
Heavelny Bride and Bridegroom, even in thought, it is this which has come to
pass by reason of the sufferings of Israel, with whom Shekinah was destined
to endure even from the beginning. When Israel is in exile the Shekinah is
also in exile . . . the Holy One will remember Israel", meaning that he
remembers His covenant, which is the Shekinah".
In other words, as I understand it, the Creator, represented by the
Hebrew letters Yod, He, Vau. He embodies both male and female principles;
the "He primal" representing the male principle and the "He final"
representing the female principle. the act of creation, according to the
"Sepher Yetzirah", was brought about by the uncoupling of the male and
female principles (degenerative monism). The quest of the Kabbalist then,
is the recoupling of both principles so that the world of creation will
reflect the world of the divinity. \
Kenneth Rexroth, in his introduction to Waite's book, states that -
"For the Kabbalist, the ultimate sacrament is the sexual act,
carefuly sustained as the most perfect mystical trance. Over the marriage
bed hovers the Shekinah."
The sex act, was, and is a fetishistic substitute for the attainment
of the quest for wholeness or reintegration. This was really a big thing in
the writings of the English poets of the so called renaissance (read Edmund
Spenser's ritualistic "Ephithalamion" - "ultimate sacrament indeed" the
consumation of the marriage evokes images of gods and goddesses.
Could this be the basis of our seemingly irreperable and screwed up
attitude toward the mystery of sex.
William Postel writes:
"The Trinity made man it It's image and after it's likeness. The
human body is dual, and it's unity is constituted by the union of its two
halves; it is animus and anima; it is mind and tenderness; so also it has
two sexes - the masculine, situated in the head, and the feminine in the
heart. The fulfillment of redemption must be dual therefore in humanity;
mind, by its purity must rectify the errors of the heart, and the heart, by
its generosity must correct the egotistic barrenness of the head.
Christianity has been comprehended heretofore only by reasoning heads; it
has not penetrated hearts. The Word has indeed become Man, but not till the
word has become Woman will the world be saved. The maternal genius of
religion must instruct man in the sublime grandures of charity; then will
reason be reconciled with Faith, because it will understand, explaine and
govern the sacred excesses of devotion".
Beautiful Metaphor!!
There is ample evidence in religion, mythology and literature, that
the quest for wholeness or integration is essentially a quest for the union
of male and female. Boethius portrays "Philosophy as a woman, Dante dreams
of two females representing the active and contemplative life, Chaucer's
Melibee has his passion for revenge subdued by his wife Prudence. etc. etc.
While God may be portrayed as masculine, all "His" most desirable and
elusive attributes are portrayed as feminine.
Consider the metaphors used in describing the revelations of the
Manifestation; Budda - the Bohdi tree, Moses - the burning bush, Christ -
the Dove (which I consider a symbol of "patience rather than of "luv" -
"In your patience posess ye your souls"). Muhamad - the angle Gabriel, The
Bab - (the severed head of the Imam Husayne) - and Baha'u'llah - the Holy
Maided who appeared to him in the Siyyih Chal. Is there any connection
between the Holy Maiden and the Shekinah who had been "in exile due to the
sufferings of Israel"? Is the prase alledgedly spoken by Tahirih, in the
presence of the Babi's assembled at Badasht - "I am the word which the Quaim
shall utter", related to Postel's assertion that "not till the Word has
become Woman will the world be saved." Is any of this stuff relevant to
anything or anyone but me? Who cares. We collect metaphors, We knit them
together, We derive meaning from them, and they often guide us from the
paths of delusion back to the main road.
I apologize profusely for this one but I can't resist posting it.
LBG's
Gordon.
RELEVANT QUOTE:
"The desire that every man hath to show his true vein in writing is
unspeakable, and their minds are so carried away with the manner as no care
at all is had of the matter. They run so into rhetoric as oft times they
overrun the bounds of their own wits and go they know not whither. If they
have stretched their invention so hard on a last as it is at a stand, there
remains but one help, which is to write of us women." (Jane Anger, 1589)
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:19:00 -0600 (CST)
From: LABANOWSKI
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: S.E.I.A.P.M.R.D.
Dear Terry and all,
Hear, Hear!! And a big Hip Hip Hooray for Shoghi Effendi,
participatory democracy, and post modern radical democrats
everywhere!
Awesome, TC!
Love,
Suzanne
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "margreet@margreet.seanet.com" ,
"talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: nobody@replay.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:33:40 -0800
Most email programs have that feature. I think I can do that from the
Exchange email client as well though have never bothered to find out about
how to do it. It seems inherently dishonest. One possible reason for the
feature in email programs might be to give the mail server an alternative
delivery path if the original server is down? Remember the note I posted
about a week ago about Internet email security. There isn't any.
I'm looking forward to true cyberspace when we can send hologrammatic
avatars of ourselves complete with speech and movement. The holo-avatars
will interact with each other. The avatar will be digitally signed so that
it can be authenticated. In a few years, all of this will seem so primitive,
rather like the original IBM PCs and the first Apples do now. Best of all,
if two respondents on the list get angry with one another they can send
their avatars across the net to slap their opponents around. Hmmm, maybe
even a Bosch cat avatar. What a concept!
Hannah
==========
"'Where do you get your ideas?' has always been the question I'm most
confronted with . . . I'm afraid the answer is much more mundane: I don't
know where my ideas come from. I will admit, however, that one key
ingredient is caffeine." -- Gary Larson (FarSide)
----------
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com[SMTP:margreet@margreet.seanet.com]
Sent: Monday, 08 January, 1996 7:54 AM
To: jwalbrid; talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: nobody@replay.com
Hello.. I have Eudora, and I am learning new things all the time.. Eudora
has a feature called "redirect" meaning I can redirect a piece of mail, to
someone, it shows I sent it on my system to that person, but the person who
recieves the mail only sees the original sender as the one who has sent the
mail and not me... I do not like that feature... it is a security issue I
need to find out about...
Just a thought, Margreet
At 10:26 AM 1/8/96 -0500, jwalbrid wrote:
>I have gotten a couple of queries about an e-mail message from
>"nobody@replay.com". This obviously is an account designed to forward
>e-mail messages in a way that makes the sender anonymous. The message I
>got was not addressed to Talisman, which leads me to suspect that some
>lurker sent the message to active participants in Talisman but not to the
>list itself. Did anybody NOT get it?
>
>As for the content, it was evidently from a follower a Jamsheed Ma'ani,
>an odd covenant-breaker (Is there any other kind these days?) who claims
>to be a third Manifestation of God on the grounds that the words "Baha"
>has three letters in Arabic. Does anybody know anything more about this
>man and his group than I do?
>
>John Walbridge
>List Owner
>
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:48:58 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: Entry by troops, our history and football
Dear Jim,
Regarding what you wrote about the youth.....
> The second thing that has to be down is to restart the Youth Movement -
>but this time it is simply *The Movement*. The idea here was to build a core
>of extremely well-deepened and dedicated *dawnbreakers* who will begin, very
>quickly to follow the Guardian's instructions:
>jim harrison
>Alethinos@aol.com
......I heard that about 4000 Baha'i youth attended the Conference in Texas
over the holidays. Spontaneity? Fire? Enthusiasm? Anything? As Simba of
Lion King fame says: ".....somebody?....anybody." Please comment, whoever
you are, if you attended.
Henry
Henry W. Miller
hwmiller@ccnet.com
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:49:03 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Ezine......Healing
Eric, et. al,
You wrote:
Thought I would end my "brain dump" by suggesting that an e-zine
>category for articles about "healing" might be appropriate, both
>wholistic and traditional medical as well as emotional/spiritual
>therapy.
I ditto your suggestion. I think the pulling ourselves up by our own
bootstraps, toward a whole new "mindset," as I think Jim's postings help us
understand, requires a zooming in on the "spiritual physiology" that
Healing implies.
If we are to become a new race of men, we must change, and
change.......radically.......we are required to access something which most
of us have not accessed as of yet, so have no way of knowing about. We can
find out more about what we need to become:
1. Read.........Baha'i Writings, all sacred Writings, yogis, Sufism,
mysticism....etc...maybe even Alice in Wonderland, I don't
know.............see what it is that awaits the seeker, through prayer,
meditation, and any other path which is structured to guide one to
enlightenment.
2. Pray..............The Long Healing Prayer.....one of the most
potent we have!!!!
3. Meditate..........Use Zen koans for meditation, use anything which
helps quiet the mind, increase self-acceptance, and produces an opening of
the heart.
When awakenings occur, unfinished emotional and mental business awaits
each one of us, because all of the accumulated dross, toxins, emotional
baggage, etc. need to be purified in the fire of "love," and brought into
consciousness in order to achieve self-transformation.
It is an undertaking far beyond the organizing, prioritizing, or
reshuffling of our daily lives..............it is related to the
time-honored and necessary mythic journey of the soul.
We need all the help we can get at these points, individually, and we
need to increase our sharing about the process. Fellow Baha'is with much
courage have already posted moving accounts of their own struggles with
psychic, physical, and emotional aspects of this transformation.
Much of the pain we are experiencing stems from our failure to DEEPLY
change.........radically, which usually only happens by undergoing a
difficult passage of the self.
We have the "human spirit" and the "spirit of faith" to guide
us...........and I take the Writings to say that if we knock, ponder, pray,
meditate, and trust in God deeply and sufficiently, we will become
admitted to an expanded sense of our Self and to an expanded understanding
of the mysteries of this creation which lead us beyond what we now take and
think to be "normal." What the old world still takes as normal has become
- due to the increased potency of energy released by Baha'u'llah's
Revelation - a very "abnormal" condition indeed. It is not a changing of
our outer environment that will help us, primarily, but an increased
ability to access the inner energies, which in turn will heal and manifest
a more spiritually efficient "outer." We must molt, not do cosmetic
surgery on our skins. Although a whole other topic, I do believe that
spiritual Healing at a depth sufficient unto one is also the answer to the
painful predicament of homosexuality.
One last thought...........when we try to "image" what this healing
might "look like," it may be helpful to bring the "science" of it and the
"religion" of it together by reading and meditating on 'Abdu'l-Baha's
words:
"The powers of the sympathetic nerve are neither entirely physical
nor spiritual,
but are between the two. The nerve is connected with both. Its phenomena
shall be perfect when its spiritual and physical relations are normal.
"When the material world and the divine world are well co-related,
when the hearts become heavenly and the aspirations become pure and divine,
perfect connection shall take place. Then shall this power produce a
perfect manifestation. Physical and spiritual diseases will then receive
absolute healing."
('Abdu'l-Bah=E1: Tablets of "Abdu'l-Bah=E1, p.309) - a=
s
found in The Throne of The Inner Temple, A compilation by Elias Zohoori,
page 3.
Eric, my "ditto" got out of control!
Baha'i love,
Henry
Henry W. Miller
hwmiller@ccnet.com
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:44:32 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Myth, metaphor, anti-intellectualism & gender.
It matters to me. How about this: Abdu'l-Baha refers to Adam as a
Manifestation. The knowledge of good and evil comes from the
Revelation. Eve gave the fruit of this tree to Adam. Isn't this
similar to the heavenly maiden coming to Baha'u'llah in the
Siya-Chal?
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:39:53 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: S.E.I.A.P.M.R.D.
Dear friends,
Don't you think that this post by Terry on Shoghi Effendi is exactly the type
of work which should appear in an e-zine?
Best,
Sandy
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:48:49 -0700
To: gg@scs.howard.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Wonderful Accounts, (was Re: insidious luke...etc.)
Dear George:
>Many of are quietly
>working to develop the bonds of freindship, love and understanding
>within our Baha'i communities and also bonds tying us to our brothers
>and sisters suffering in the surrounding communities.
Thanks for the thrilling bits of news you related; very interesting, and a
confirming proof of the spiritual promise inherent in the acts of arising
to teach and of proffering service, I would say.
> But there is a mysterious
>force at work. There have been awsome happenings going on inspite
>of our follys.
Yes!
Baha'i love, Henry
Henry W. Miller
hwmiller@ccnet.com
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 02:49:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Third Manifestation
Here's a different angle on the "Third Manifestation" (just to confuse
things ).
'Abdu'l-Baha, explaining Revelation 11:14 (see _Some Answered Questions_,
p.56), says that Muhammad is the First Woe, the Bab is the Second Woe,
and Baha'u'llah is the Third Woe mentioned in that verse (he also explains
that a "Day of Woe" = the "Day of the Lord"). I wonder if this "Third"
can be tied to the "Third Letter" i]somehow?
Re Meghnot: I think I like his wife: "She has torn my writings and thrown
some in the garbage can." Yep, sounds divinely inspired to me...
BTW, I did not receive any messages from "nobody" either. (yikes, that
scans badly). Maybe he/she got the recipients' names from some source
besides the Talisman list? (heyy! maybe "nobody" got blitzed by faust!)
Leigh
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:08:34 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Donna Katich Latest News.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
To: farshid@ix.netcom.com
To: calbahais@gsb-yen.stanford.edu
To: BANANI@humnet.ucla.edu
To: barney@leith.demon.co.uk
To: Kharvri@cmgm.Stanford.Edu
To: Juana.Conrad@usbnc.org
To: Robert.Henderson@usbnc.org
To: hatcher@chuma.cas.usf.edu
To: TKneisler@usbnc.org
To: rhodes@cruzio.com
To: JGalata@aol.com
To: TSwanson@BIC.org
To: Ladiri@aol.com
To: faustini@asu.edu
To: JRubenstein@usbnc.org
To: Tom.Price@Nashville.com
To: jwiegley@wpo.borland.com
Dear Friends
Today at our regular Monday Staff Meeting Donna came and paid a
fleeting visit. She is still not her old self , the speech is rather
rapid and she walked on shaky legs . But it did everyone a great deal
of good to see her. for her even more than us I suspect it was a
miracle . More prayers still.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 19:16:51 PST8PDT
Subject: Re (2): Jonestown & Mossedegh [+ watergate!]
> Date sent: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:05:04 -0700 (MST)
> From: Sadra
> To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
> Copies to: Talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Re: Jonestown & Mossedegh
...snip
>
> On Gary Sick's book _All Fall Down_: Sick grossly exagerates the role of
> popular dissent against Mossadegh -- there was dissent, sure, but it wasn't
> popular by any margin, as events subsequent to his political demise would
> prove.
...snip
> streets. Guess what the crowd was chanting? "Marg bar Mossadegh mahboob,
> zendebAd Shah-i khA'en" (Death to our beloved Mossadegh, long live the
> traitorous Shah)! Someone at the front of line had obviously gotten the
> script confused :-) Need I say more .
>
> Nima
>
Nima, that story is too rich! Obviously before the days when
security agencies hired polished media consultants and spin
doctors. :)
Haven't seen the Nixon movie yet, your comments about it in the
private weekend message sound good!
I think I may have mentioned it before, but I was flabbergasted
when, a couple of months after Nixon died, there were only a few
minor news pieces indicating that some documents had
"mysteriously" been found showing that Nixon knew *EVERYTHING*
about Watergate. So, one of the biggest criminal politicians in
american history was pardoned, and even underwent political/media
"rehabilitation" in the 90s! Did anyone else barf during Clinton's
speech at Nixon's funeral?
I haven't had a chance to digest the "Soroush" stuff from last
weeks, but if you have anything else, my friend from Kerman eagerly
awaits any tidbits. He will try subscribing to talisman later in
the month when he gets his email system set up. I'm giving him
digests of talisman stuff on floppy disk, and he is absolutely
amazed by talisman!
His thinking is more in line with Linda's position on the CIA/
Mossadegh business. My knowledge is limited to reading William
Dorman's "US Press and Iran" since I haven't been able to get or
read the books about recent middle east history you kindly listed
for me a while back. The gentleman from Kerman says that outsiders
analyzing Iranian politics/society tend to project their own
values into their conclusions, and may not be fully aware of the
role that religious values play in politics there.
The role of various elites in the development of american media
bias *about* events in Iran is the main point of Dorman's book,
so he doesn't get into a lot of details to support his contention
that there was a whitewash in the US press when the CIA got rid
of Mossadegh in order to protect american/british interests
in Iran (mainly oil, but also strategic: Russian border). Dorman
also contends that the revolution was inevitable since the Shah
was not supported by the majority and didn't share the values of
the majority, and says it was also inevitable that the religious
elites would take over since there was no other signifigant group
that had been opposed to the Shah that could capture the support
of the majority during the revolution. I guess Jimmy Carter is
at least a little off the hook.
I haven't read the book that Linda and you were discussing, but
I would assume that it is difficult to untangle the exact manner
in which in the CIA influenced/inflamed popular feelings and
fears about Mossadegh being a "communist" and how much of a factor
that was in his loosing power.
Please elaborate on any subtle "political" implications in
how Persian Baha'is think about all this. Was Mossadegh expelled
from a God centered population for his alien "communist"
leanings, or was he ousted by an external covert operation? I have
heard that Baha'is benefitted disproportionately from the
post-Mossadegh economy, but I have also heard that there were
covert western-thinking leftist groups that exposed themselves to
substantial danger when they set up business fronts to make huge
amounts of money in oil industry services to support their
organization's anti-Shah efforts. Not sure what it all means,
just telling what I have heard.
A side note in my conversation with the gentleman from Kerman:
someone in his family was acquainted with a relative of an
important Iranian military leader who resigned when the
Revolutionary Guard started getting extreme. The military guy
said the armories were thrown open in such a way and at such a
time as to allow the maximum advantage to the religious
extremists and to prevent the leftists from getting the Army's
weapons.
Sorry if anyone thinks this is boring,
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
=END=
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:10:59 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Entry by troops, our history and football
A member of our community home from college in the Dominican Republic
went. He said it was a great conference, but most were younger than
he was.
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:44:42 PST8PDT
Subject: Re: Ezine......Healing (mental [health] tests)
Greetings Mr. Miller/talisman,
Cool, seems like my original impulse to think of "mental tests"
as "mental-health tests" works for you! After overcoming my
revulsion at the use of the "insidious/lukewarm" quote, further
positive reading of the Kahn talk reinforced this notion, although
I'm baffled as to why he didn't just come out and say "this is a
oppressively mentally ill society!", in a similar sense to the way
that ingrained racism is collectively institutionalized but denied.
(no, I'm not saying that individual mental illness oppresses, I
just don't have time to think of the right way to say it.)
For me, the acting out of a self-defeated conception of life based
on powerlessness and victimization (in-group, strident rebellious
language and blatant flaunting of disrespect [for institutions])
falls as much under such a definition as does an authoritarian
version of community life that entails "witch hunts" and mind/heart
numbing conformity.
EP
> Date sent: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 18:49:03 -0700
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
> Subject: Ezine......Healing
...snip
> When awakenings occur, unfinished emotional and mental business awaits
> each one of us, because all of the accumulated dross, toxins, emotional
> baggage, etc. need to be purified in the fire of "love," and brought into
> consciousness in order to achieve self-transformation.
*
*
> It is an undertaking far beyond the organizing, prioritizing, or
> reshuffling of our daily lives..............it is related to the
> time-honored and necessary mythic journey of the soul.
*
*
> We need all the help we can get at these points, individually, and we
> need to increase our sharing about the process. Fellow Baha'is with much
> courage have already posted moving accounts of their own struggles with
> psychic, physical, and emotional aspects of this transformation.
*
*
> Much of the pain we are experiencing stems from our failure to DEEPLY
> change.........radically, which usually only happens by undergoing a
> difficult passage of the self.
=END=
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 96 20:39:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The Third Manifestation
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
In response to Eric Indiogine's query, a while back when we were
discussing the spiritual station of Quddus, Sura of Ya-Sin of
Qur'an was noted:
(Sura 36 -- Rodwell)
11. Verily, it is We who will quicken the dead, and write down
the works which they have sent on before them, and the traces
which they shall have left behind them: and everything have we
set down in the clear Book of our decrees.
12. Set forth to them the instance of the people of the city when
the Sent Ones came to it.
13. When we sent two unto them and they charged them both with
imposture - therefore with a third we strengthened them: and
they said, "Verily we are the Sent unto you of God."
14. They said, "Ye are only men like us: Nought hath the God of
Mercy sent down. Ye do nothing but lie."
15. They said, "Our Lord knoweth that we are surely sent unto
you;
Veteran Talismanians recall that it was explained that friends in
Tihran wrote to Abdu'l-Baha asking if the "third" in the above
referred to Him, but He wrote back saying the First and the
Second are the Bab and Quddus respectively, with Baha'u'llah as
the Third. He goes on in this Tablet to instance where
Baha'u'llah Himself has referred to Himself as the Third. This
is important as it shows the interpretation is by Baha'u'llah Who
had also stated Quddus is the very *essence* of the Bab and
Himself the spiritual return of Quddus.
As I recall a few months back there were bunch of postings on all
of these.
BTW, is anyone familiar with the original of Abdu'l-Baha's Tablet
which Sen quotes?
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:09:45 +1200
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 9:"most of the population lack even the vocabulary to explain what
they want"
Talismans,
Prayer is the major archetype of "pleading", and in a spiritual world all
the legitimate pleas of the needy will be answered, with government being
the central axis of material and social providence... When first perusing
SDC some years ago, the middle paragraph of today's passage got stuck in my
mind...
Robert.
+P18 If, however, the members of these consultative assemblies are
inferior, ignorant, uninformed of the laws of government and
administration, unwise, of low aim, indifferent, idle, self-seeking, no
benefit will accrue from the organizing of such bodies. Where, in the
past, if a poor man wanted his rights he had only to offer a gift to one
individual, now he would either have to renounce all hope of justice or
else satisfy the entire membership.
Close investigation will show that the primary cause of oppression
and injustice, of unrighteousness, irregularity and disorder, is the
people's lack of religious faith and the fact that they are uneducated.
When, for example, the people are genuinely religious and are literate
and well-schooled, and a difficulty presents itself, they can apply to the
local authorities; if they do not meet with justice and secure their
rights and if they see that the conduct of the local government is
incompatible with the Divine good pleasure and the king's justice, they
can then take their case to higher courts and describe the deviation of
the local administration from the spiritual law. Those courts can then
send for the local records of the case and in this way justice will be
done. At present, however, because of their inadequate schooling, most of
the population lack even the vocabulary to explain what they want.
As to those persons who, here and there, are considered leaders of
the people: because this is only the beginning of the new administrative
process, they are +P19 not yet sufficiently advanced in their education
to have experienced the delights of dispensing justice or to have tasted
the exhilaration of promoting righteousness or to have drunk from the
springs of a clear conscience and a sincere intent. They have not
properly understood that man's supreme honor and real happiness lie in
self-respect, in high resolves and noble purposes, in integrity and moral
quality, in immaculacy of mind. They have, rather, imagined that their
greatness consists in the accumulation, by whatever means may offer, of
worldly goods.
=END=
From: "Steven Kolins"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 00:32:22 EST
Subject:
The only person who enabled me to understand the station of
Baha'u'llah with his deep love and awesome knowledge of the
Revelation is a man who was considered mentally-ill and who has been
living in a tipi for years. He was always shunned and treated less
than kindly manner by mind-experts (psychologist, psychiatrists,
family therapists) in our community. It has made me revolt against
this type of people. If found them so engrossed in their ego as
experts that they were failing to attract me to the Faith. But, I owe
my deepening to the underdog, in this case. Mental giants can be
spiritual dwarfs. This is my few pennies worth on the subject.
In fact a few years later, these experts thenselves looked pretty
pathetic, mentally. But, my heart goes out to them.
Quanta Dawn-LightAll I need is Freedom of spirit, Chastity of soul, and Purity
of
heart. A pov is not even secondary.
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 00:35:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Secret of Divine Civilization
In tandem with the postings on this book, I thought I might offer some
paragraphs I have been writing on it (a draft of this was presented at
ABS in SF at Rob Stockman's kind request). Comments are welcome. If you
don't like it when it appears in print, remember, you had your chance.
:-)
From *Modernity and the Millennium*, (c) 1996, Juan R.I. Cole, Department
of History, University of Michigan:
Governmental Reform
Baha'u'llah from about 1869 called for the kind of limits on the
shah's absolute power that went far beyond the program of reformers
who merely advocated cabinet government. Among the few other
writers in Persian at that time who championed parliamentary
government at that time was Fath-`Ali Akhundzadih (1812-1878), who
resided in tsarist Tiflis. Akhundzadih's father was Azerbaijani, and
became a merchant in the Tsarist-ruled Caucasus. Fath-`Ali became an
official interpreter for the Russian government, and from about 1850
he began writing satirical plays and reformist tracts. His 1863 "Letters
of Kamalu'd-Dawlih" advocated the power of the people and an end to
despotism, though the argument was couched in an anti-Arab racism
and a hatred of Islam and of religion in general that was very far from
Baha'u'llah's own stance. For Akhundzadih as for many other Qajar
intellectuals, the example of parliamentary regimes in the West was
influential. Even conservative travellers such as Mirza Fattah
Garmrudi were capable of praising parliamentary decision-making:
Individually the people of Farangistan [the West] are not very wise or
mature nor are they endowed with much eloquence or intelligence; but
the parliament and house of consultation that they have established
apparently conceal these shortcomings. When the interests of the
government and the country are at issue, a number of selected wise
men (`uqala') and governmental trustees (umana'), through consulting
and advising each other, reach the depth of an issue and evaluate the
good and bad of a claim and, finally, from the views of the wise-men, a
thoroughly considered position is adopted and used. Accordingly, it is
clear that mistakes and errors are reduced and affairs are based on an
expedient conscience.
The realization that group decision-making of a parliamentary sort,
which Muslim thinkers tended to gloss as "consultation," might offer
concrete advantages to those in government made adoption of this
process tempting for Qajar reformers. The shahs tended to be less
impressed with its potentialities.
Among the promoters of consultative power-sharing, at least
between the shah and his ministers, was Mirza Husayn Khan
Mushiru'd-Dawlih (1828-1881). He had studied briefly in Paris as a
young man, and was posted to Bombay, becoming consul in 1851,
then was consul in Tiflis (Tblisi) 1855-58. He was minister and then
ambassador in Istanbul 1858-1870, where, as we have seen, he was a
prime mover in Baha'u'llah's exiles. In 1870 Mirza Husayn Khan was
recalled to Iran as minister, first of justice and then of war. In
September, 1871, he became first minister (sadr-i a`zam) in Tehran.
Influenced by Ottoman reforms, he attempted to work out a system of
cabinet government with Nasiru'd-Din Shah, and a body was set up in
imitation of the Tanzimat, called the "Great Consultative Council"
(Majlis-i Shura-yi Kubra), though this was an appointive institution
subservient to the shah rather than a representative one. Mirza Husayn
Khan made the mistake of seeking to develop Iran's economy and
resources by granting a huge concession to Baron Julius de Reuter, a
British subject. This unwise policy aroused the opposition of
merchants, intellectuals, some ulama, and of the Russians, and the
whole scheme had to be cancelled. The fiasco, along with Nasiru'd-
Din's ultimate unwillingness to share any power with his cabinet, led to
Mirza Husayn Khan's demotion to foreign minister in 1873. The
experiment in cabinet government failed, and Iran reverted to absolute
monarchy. This event convinced Akhundzadih that Iranians could not
implement French-style constitutionalism until the masses were
educated.
Although as Iranian ambassador to Istanbul Mirza Husayn
Khan showed great enmity to the Baha'is up to 1870, he later changed
his mind about them and once let a Baha'i courier caught at Aleppo go
free. Indeed, one of his close relatives, Mirza Muhammad `Ali
Kadkhuda, became a Baha'i, which may have moderated the minister's
views of the movement. By the mid-1870s he was reportedly praising
it and is said to have upbraided one of Baha'u'llah's Muslim brothers
for being embarrassed about the relationship. The thaw in relations
was mutual. In the early 1870s Baha'u'llah quizzed one visitor to
`Akka from Iran about the behavior of Mirza Husayn Khan, and in
return described the reformer as "more imbued with Reason than the rest"
(a`qal az sa'irin)of Iranian politicians. Elsewhere Baha'u'llah notes with
approval thattoward the end of his life Mirza Husayn Khan ceased speaking
badly ofthe Baha'is, and shows a willingness to forgive him for his
enormities.
`Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'u'llah's eldest son, responded much more
hopefully to the Iranian reformism of the 1870s than did Akhundzadih,
writing a Persian book in Palestine in 1875 known in English as The
Secret of Divine Civilization, which he published in Bombay in 1882.
Baha'u'llah had asked him to write a book on the "science of politics"
(`ilm-i siyasat) to demonstrate that it was not only prominent reformist
intellectuals who could speak on such matters, but that those inspired
by God could do so, as well.
`Abdu'l-Baha begins his Secret of Divine Civilization by
praising reason or intellect (`aql), drawing for support upon Qur'an
verses and the rhetoric of medieval Islamic philosophy. In both the
Qur'an and in Greco-Islamic philosophy, knowledge and the intellect
are prized. Philosophy had long flourished in Iran, and in the sixteenth
and seventeenth centuries, had its center in the School of Isfahan; the
Illuminationist current (really a form of Neoplatonism) was also
influential. The Shaykhi school, out of which the Babi and Baha'i
religions developed, was more or less Illuminationist in orientation
and, despite its kabbalistic esotericism, prized the intellect. Into this
humanist rationalism of the urbane Islamic tradition, the tradition of
Avicenna, Suhrawardi and Mulla Sadra, `Abdu'l-Baha infuses the
nineteenth-century notion of civilizational progress. He presents early
Islam itself as a civilizing force for the tribes of the Arabian
peninsula. He explains that he is impelled to write by the shah's own
announcement of his determination to reform Iran (probably referring
to the reformist period of 1871-73).
=END=
[end of 1/8/96 session]
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