Who is William Devane? The decade-long star of Knots Landing, countless television movies and shows and several fine motion pictures doesn’t do many interviews. In the interviews he has granted, he is usually reticent about his craft and the greatest character he created, U.S. Senator and corporate titan Gregory Sumner on Knots Landing. Aloof on that show and (seemingly) aloof in real life, he usually came across as mysterious and even intimidating.
There’s more to William Devane than meets the eye. In this exclusive interview, the man who defined President Kennedy on screen, appeared in Hitchcock’s last hurrah and now leads a gentlemanly life of horse breeding and restaurant proprietorship reveals how he does it.
Arthur Swift: It’s a pleasure to be talking with you this morning. I have to mention that I’ve been to your restaurant (Devane’s in Palm Springs) and really enjoyed it.
William Devane: I’m glad you liked it. It’s not really my restaurant, it’s more my son’s. But the family owns it.
AS: I even remember what I had … the Zuppa di Clams, the Veal Parmigiana and the Chocolate Cyclone Cake.
Devane: You had it all then.
AS: I tried. How could I resist a restaurant that serves “New York Italian” cuisine?
Devane (laughs): You can’t.
AS: Where are you talking to me today from?
Devane: I have a ranch in Thermal (California).
AS: Very good. Let me ask you first, how did you get onto Knots Landing?
Devane: At one time, whenever the hell it was, they wanted a character to come in and stir up the pot. They brought me in for 8-10 episodes and said we’ll try it for that. Donna Mills came on the show as a female antagonist, about a year before, so now they wanted to have a male antagonist. I was cast as a Senator to shake things up.
AS: So you weren’t brought on to be a regular cast member from the beginning like Kevin Dobson was?
Devane: Well Kevin Dobson came on to Knots because CBS had to fulfill a contractual obligation of his. He had a deal with CBS to do a series; there was a show that he was going to do, as a detective who had a young daughter and that went nowhere. CBS had to fulfill his contract so they put him on Knots Landing. It worked well because Don Murray didn’t want to be on Knots anymore. You’d be surprised how often people get onto shows like that, because the actor has a contract with the network. It actually happens with writers all the time. I’ve been on shows when suddenly writers show up out of nowhere and you wonder why. Then you realize that they had a deal with the network and they’re obligated to get a job. But in any case, that’s how Kevin Dobson got onto Knots Landing.
AS: Then if Kevin was having his contract honored, you must have liked being on the show and the feeling must have been mutual to extend you beyond 8 weeks.
Devane: Oh I really liked it, yeah. Doing a continuing show like that, with the huge growth potential for the character, the possibility of creating an enduring character, it was great. And I have to credit David Jacobs with the opportunities he gave me. He was totally into sharing the creation of characters. David put together a show that told the story of people over many years’ time and that was greatly enjoyable. Though nowadays that is frowned upon.
AS: Why’s that?
Devane: Networks don’t want a show with a continuing story. There’s no backend potential. A show like Knots or any other show that can be called a soap opera does terribly in syndication because if you’re a viewer and you miss a week you don’t know what’s going on. Even though shows like NYPD Blue are soaps in my opinion, but they’re individualized to an extent that you can still follow what’s going on if you miss a week.
AS: Is that why shows like Knots aren’t made anymore?
Devane: Yeah. They might say they want them, but ultimately none of them go in. Though I think The O.C. is doing well, so there’s an example.
AS: Let’s get to some questions submitted for you from fans around the world…
James from London asks
In an interview that Donna Mills did (with Camille Paglia, no less!), she
said that she "always insisted Abby never cried or showed any weakness
except when she was alone. She'd walk into the bathroom to cry." This
reminds me of you talking in THE KNOTS LANDING BLOCK PARTY about how you very carefully created both a public and private persona for Greg. You
seemed to take it one step further than Abby in that Greg was often as much
of an enigma to the audience as he was to the other characters! That's what
made him such a compelling character to watch for so long - one of THE most
compelling TV characters ever, in fact. Could you talk a bit more about how
you established and sustained Greg's private/public persona?
Devane: It’s a Stanislavskian conceit. In a play you have what’s called a “star pause.” You would take that time off the text and involve the audience in your state of mind. My objective (on Knots) was to act what was not there, which is not what television is about. In television that’s why you have so many people who aren’t really talented who are successful at it because it’s all there in front of them, you just act what’s on the page and you’re fine. When you go to a movie, it’s about what’s not being said. I tried to bring that to Greg Sumner. It was always about what’s not being said.
AS: How were you able to do that if television is so script-intensive then?
Devane: We had a lot of cooperation from the writing staff. For example, I wrote the end of the death of Laura scene, the two-parter. Remember that?
AS: Your monologue at the end with the videotape?
Devane: Yes. They had written something else, something a little similar to what I did, actually, not that similar at all now that I remember it. And I just thought that speech I made was much more appropriate for the moment and David agreed.
AS: Do you remember what the original scene was?
Devane: I don’t, but it wasn’t as good. And all of Laura’s stuff, what they wrote originally wasn’t as good and Constance wound up doing that herself. That was all her stuff, reading to the child, because she had children herself and that’s what she would have done. David was the kind of guy who was totally supportive of the actors and instructed the writing staff to trust the actor’s instincts, since after all, it’s the actors playing the character.
Bob from Scotland, UK asks
Bill, I've admired your work for so long - not just on 'Knots' but other appearances on recent flicks including 'Hollow Man' and 'Space Cowboys'. You always seem to possess a very 'human' quality to your performances - bringing the character right down to earth.
Anyway I was lucky enough to receive a script from Kevin Dobson 13 years ago and noticed that all Greg's lines were amended on some form or another during the actual broadcast. Was this your decision to make last minute changes because all the changes in question were manifestly for the better, and if so, how did the writers feel at having their work tampered with?
Devane: There’s always a certain amount of conflict between the writing staff and the actors. Knots had a large writing staff and they farmed a lot of (the writing) out to others. So the writers would have the dialogue be a certain way until it got to the floor. Once the scene hits the floor, the actors are in charge. But you would notice in the script that’s mentioned that I never altered the story. I altered the script to the point that it allowed the “what’s not being said” to come out, lines here and there.
For instance, I’d like to use colloquial terms. (The writers) would always say, “his land” and I’d say “ground.” Those little things I’d do. There’s a certain possessiveness of writers sometimes. I’ll go work on shows and you’ll see at the top of the script, “Not one word of this can be changed on the floor.” That makes you really want to change it. (Laughs) Writers are not always right however, but then again, I’ve been on shows where the actors have complete control and change everything and it’s terrible.
I would fix other people’s lines if they asked me on occasion. The hard part of writing is the architecture of it, getting the story and structuring it. Not the tweaking of lines.
AS: Sounds like you did a lot more writing than was credited; yet you wrote a few credited episodes as well. Were you hired to do that or did the credits just get placed on there?
Devane: You’re hired to do it. I’d say, “I want to write a couple of episodes this season,” and they’d say fine.
Joshua Slow from Los Angeles asks
In my opinion, the villain you created in Greg Sumner was richer, more textured and three-dimensional than those on the other nighttime soaps. I once read that you told David Jacobs he was the only one on the staff who could write for the Greg Sumner character.
Devane: He created it, so he certainly knew the character. We had problems at one point when Bernie (Lechowick) and Lynn (Latham) came onto the show because they were into being politically correct. And Greg Sumner is not at all politically correct. David Jacobs didn’t mind what I did with the character but then he receded into the background and things changed. Lynn Lechowick didn’t like when I called a woman a “broad.” A glaring example was that Lynn would not want you to smoke. But the cigar was something I used; it was part of who Greg was.
AS: Latham and Lechowick as writers seem to have divided the cast. Michele Lee and Ted Shackelford loved them; John Pleshette and Joan Van Ark hated them. Where do you fit in?
Devane: Make no mistake they were very competent. They knew what they were doing. But Bernie and Lynn were very arrogant so that must have ruffled feathers. When David went into the background Bernie and Lynn were running the show and Joan and John were into diplomacy. Bernie and Lynn didn’t handle things very diplomatically. I didn’t care about that because I’m not a diplomatic person to begin with. I just went along with things and did what I wanted to do because I knew they had to shoot their 12 pages a day. And when they realized that I didn’t alter the text they really didn’t mind what I did.
As time went on it became harder to create story. I mean, they did a great job if they could convince people that Ted Shackelford could convert ocean water into rainwater and make it energy.
AS: Actually, they didn’t write that.
Devane (laughs): No wonder.
Alex Wade from Ferndale, Michigan asks
So what political persuasion was Greg Sumner anyway? It always seemed so ambiguous, as if his views had to be a bastardization of some sort - such as Liberal Republican or Conservative Democrat...
Devane: I think that got a little confused. Personally I’m a left-wing liberal Democrat but Greg Sumner, he’s basically a conservative Republican. That’s how I played him anyway.
AS: I think David Jacobs once said he was a lapsed Kennedy Democrat.
Devane: Maybe. See, David thought he was getting Sam Waterston when he got me. I had played Kennedy and Army guys but they really didn’t know who I was, the person. I was shanty Irish. (AS laughs) This lack of knowledge allowed me to color the character in my own way.
Kay from Milwaukee asks
Did it frustrate you that Knots was ignored by the Emmys? I used to get so mad when Hill Street Blues was nominated again and again while Knots was ignored. Three scenes you did still stand out in my memory--when you were telling Laura that Howard Duff was your real father, when you were talking to Howard Duff's portrait after he died, and--the best one of all--when you were watching the video Laura made before she died. I still cry when I watch that one! You deserved Emmys each season and I don't understand why the television academy ignored Knots! What did you and the rest of the cast think of the whole nominating process? Thanks for all the years of great entertainment!
Devane: Ultimately the Emmys are a popularity contest. I remember going to the Golden Globes one year and David was so sure we were going to win. I said, “David, this is the Hollywood Foreign Press Association … they only give it to foreigners.” And I was right; in my category they gave it to the English guy who won two or three years in a row. I don’t remember what show he was on. He was a detective, I think.
AS: The Equalizer?
Devane: Right, that’s it. And the Emmys are all about elitism. At the time (Steven) Bochco’s crew was the elite one out there and they were winning all the awards. But they never beat Knots in the ratings after I got on the show. We were a couple of points ahead of them. Given that, a certain elitism still prevailed and they kept winning awards. If you’re in a soap opera, you’re a second-class citizen. And they don’t give awards to second-class citizens.
And while awards would be nice, I was just glad to be a part of the process and have some scenes I could be proud of. My favorite moment in television was at the end of Laura’s death when I was watching her videotape. It was a single shot. Not a lot of guys can get that material and not a lot can play it.
Laura Avery Sumner from Portland, Oregon asks
In your opinion, who was a better foil for Greg? Laura or Paige? What were the differences between working with Nicollette Sheridan & working with Constance McCashin and if you had to pick only one, which did you prefer?
Devane: There are two different struggles playing off these two characters. (Pauses) Probably more interesting was being opposite Laura since she was a more mature character. Nicollette is one of my best friends; I see her all the time. But that whole story was kind of juvenile. It didn’t interest me as much.
AS: What did you think of Constance leaving the show then?
Devane: That was a very strange time and it all came down to money. The network was pissing and moaning about lopping off some heads to save money. I found that for Greg’s purposes I would have preferred to see her stay on the show. It would have been nice for Greg to eventually grow into a mature relationship with Laura. He was moving toward that already but then took a turn into the juvenile with Paige.
AS: But the passing of Laura opened up a lot of dramatic potential for Greg.
Devane: Oh sure it did. And don’t get me wrong, the character continued and I liked being Greg still. There’s nothing you can do in that situation. That’s the reality. But Constance was really freaked out about it all. And that in turn ruined the reunion when she wouldn’t let her voice be used. What a disaster that movie was.
AS: You mean the scenes when Laura’s videotape was heard.
Devane: Yes, they played it again but it was the voice of a different woman.
AS: They needed Constance’s permission for that? Isn’t that tape the property of CBS or Lorimar?
Devane: It is the property but there’s something in the SAG (Screen Actors Guild) contract that allowed her to withhold permission for her voice. We wanted to use that stuff and they probably shouldn’t have put (the tape) in at that point.
AS: Is that why the reunion was bad then?
Devane: Oh no, that’s only one of the things. It was written by someone who didn’t have anything to do with Knots Landing. They did a shitty job. If they had put their nose to the grindstone they could have done a movie like that every two or three years.
AS: Do you think they’ll ever do another reunion movie?
Devane: No. Too much time has passed. We’re all old now! And I’m not interested in playing someone 47 anymore and getting face work and everything else. I’ve moved on to grandfather roles.
Christine from Germany asks
The season 9 episode "Bouncing Babies" which was written by you is one of my all time favorite Knots episodes. I didn't like season 9 that much on a whole, I felt the show was going downhill after Laura's death. In fact I stopped taping the show after Laura's death but "Bouncing Babies" is an episode that I kept and I have watched it many times since! It's just so deep, I love the scene at the end where Greg stands there quietly and watches the playhouse burning down.
I wonder what you personally think of Greg's decision to give Meg to the Mackenzies? I always thought it was the wrong decision, I somehow even think he would have been a wonderful father!
Devane: Karen and Mack had somehow convinced me that they were morally better to raise a child than I was. And I think I was able to get it to a positive place where it worked out. The bottom line construction in a show like that is after a while you can’t be a parent with older children. You start to seem old, and that’s not good. But you bring a small child in and Michele Lee and Kevin Dobson had ten years lopped off their ages overnight.
AS: They did that with Joan Van Ark and Ted Shackelford, too.
Devane: Yes. It’s a conscious decision to give them a young child and that keeps them seeming like they’re 30-something forever, even though they’re 50. It may seem random, but it’s actually very crafty stuff. If you watch Cheers, in 12 years they didn’t age a day.
AS: One of the things I really liked about the progression of Greg was how you let him gray and age naturally. He seemed much more like a real person that way.
Devane: And that’s rare. The business is built on slowing or even stopping the aging process. There are some exceptions. Clint Eastwood is aging beautifully. But someone like Burt Reynolds and others are practically destroying their faces in the amount of work they have. I remember a good story about Lawrence Olivier. He was doing a play called The Entertainer and was wearing elaborate makeup. And Spencer Tracy came to see the show and sat in Olivier’s dressing room for 90 minutes while Olivier had this makeup applied to him. And finally Olivier asked Tracy, “What do you think?” And Tracy replied, “It’s great, but who do you think the audience is going to think you are?” In makeup and plastic surgery it conceals who you are.
Tatianna from Virginia asks
I always wanted to see Greg Sumner and JR Ewing duke it out in some type of business venture. How do you think that Greg would have stacked up against JR? I always believed that Greg was much smarter and had a little more integrity than JR.
Devane: I don’t think in my lifetime I have ever seen an episode of Dallas, so I really don’t know how to answer that question. (Laughs).
AS: Before you started on Knots had you ever seen that show?
Devane: No.
AS: Michelle Phillips said the same thing … I’m sensing a trend here. Are you a TV watcher?
Devane: I try to watch only real things, which basically amounts to C-Span for me. I like real people in real situations. I learn from that.
Annette from San Diego asks
I saw you on The West Wing and I was thrilled because I've been into watching KL reruns on Soap Net, and love your character! I was disappointed that you weren't going to be on the show full time. What sorts of acting projects are you involved in now? And, I have to ask: do you regularly hang out in your restaurant? My sister lives in the desert and we want to come try it out and hopefully catch a glimpse of you!
Devane: That’s very nice to say. I try to go to the restaurant every night early, 6 or 7 o’clock, especially if the (Los Angeles) Lakers are playing. I’m trying to find a character th