16. Aug. 1996 I would like to add to your following remarks with a clarifier. Taken as a whole the collapse is somewhat baffling not because it happened, but because the sites were abandoned forever. Looked at the collapse piecemeal one finds simple answers. I will cite three because these are the ones that I know about best and for which I have very secure evidence to support probably a thousand words of defense which will ensue as soon as this posting is received. Let's begin with Calakmul. This site had a primary political area of over 15,000 sq. km. according to Willie Follan's very complete mapping. It began in the early Preclassic and lasted until a severe drought brought it down in the late 9th century. In fact, all sites in the southeastern part of Campeche and northern Peten suffered the same fate. These centers were simply too large for the leaders to have developed comprehensive emergency plans to deal with a situation of this magnitude. Although the site had an extensive reservoir-canal system, it was not designed to augment the field system to provide any irrigation support. The drought lasted for approximately 200 years so there was no waiting it out. INAH has extensive support for this fact as well as the University of Florida which carried out the most recent research. My second example is Caracol. This large center's demise was based on an over-abundance of rain. The silicates in the heavily clayed soil washed out over time making the immediate region uncultivable. Arlan Chase can document this/ I can't put my hands on the report as I write so my source will be cited later. Caracol and Calakmul were supersites which played large roles in the history of the Maya. Where that history is in its complete form can be found at the end of a shovel. All the surmising in the world does not replace good old dirt archaeology. My third example is Palenque. Palenque was ultimately neutralized by Calakmul in its bid to achieve lowland supremacy. Substantiation of this fact was recently found at Calakmul and the text was confirmed by Nicolai Grube. To the trained eye the beauty of Palenque lies in its ability to have been created in the first place. Power made this site. Power secured its artisans and power brought it down. The most interesting thing to me about the collapse and the so called hiatus at Tikal and all the other great mysteries of Mesoamerica is that once we learn what caused each incident we can put together a picture of the whole. Archaeologists are much like paleontologists. They get a "bone" and turn this bone into an "animal." Sometimes in their haste they find the animal but put the wrong head on it and then declare that this is what it must have looked like because I'm the authority and therefore I say it's right. Later, someone comes along and says, "Whoa!" That's the wrong head and the animal you've described is entirely different. The mystery of the collapse is not a mystery to those who do the digging. While digging at Caracol an amazing round altar monument was found with a text which indicated a war between that site and Tikal. Bye bye hiatus. The hiatus "existed" along with a preponderance of theories because of an absence of fieldwork and the academic community was ready to accept that it was fact and came up with a plethora of reasons. Not once did anyone step back and say to themselves this doesn't make sense. There are too many sites too nearby that didn't suffer. They didn't know this because they didn't bother to get out into the field. Altar, Piedras Negras, Yaxchillan and Seibal were apparently "invaded" by Chontal Maya in the late Classic. This avenue of investigation needs to be actively pursued. We are working at in the region of Acalan. I will probably have time this fall to go looking for the mythical canal connecting the Rio Candelaria with the Usumacinta (hereafter called the "big u"). I have requisitioned the satellite imagery for the region. If it exists we will find it. If it doesn't we'll say we failed. We won't write extensive papers on the nature of its construction until we either find it or don't. Sure the Maya were spiritual, but they were also people and had people-related problems. Problems like the weather and the guy who is chasing you with a big club are not religious issues at the moment they are occurring. They are issues of survival. So is an empty belly. Do you think the Maya sat and wondered why the "gods" denied them food and died or did they get off their collective butts and go looking for something to eat. Knowing the Maya as I do, I think they went looking. Canoeing down the Rio Candelaria with a cargo of whatever and hoping to make a profitable trade at the intended port of call is not a religious issue. It wreaks of pragmatism. The river may be a spiritual artery, but to the traders plying its waters it was an avenue of commerce. I can almost see the dreams of the "captain" thinking what he will get with the earnings of his cargo. The Maya enjoyed too many beautiful objects in their lives to be abstract religionists. And, I ask my age old question, "Where did they go to the bathroom?" Somewhere in all those monuments there was an outhouse. Not one single word has been written on site arrangement as it relates to the place smelling bad. Were chultunes really holes from long ago outhouses? Who knows. It makes more sense that storing your crops in a hole in the middle of an area where the soil is constantly wet. Do you know how fast things rot in a rainforset-rain environment. I had a professor in grad school who gave me one of the best pieces of advice I ever had. He said quite simply, "Don't get into a man's grave until you've gotten into his mind because you won't really know what you're looking at." I have spent most of my life getting into the minds of the Maya. and the Maya I see are a lot different that many of those I read described. They are joy and sorrow. Good times and bad. And, like all of us, when the chips are down they wonder what comes next. In this we share uncertainty. And, this observance of the uncertainty is what we call religion. Paul -------- The Maya Postclassic was not the "Fall Of Rome" nor the "Fall of Ancient Greece". It can probably be looked at as a time when the Maya were looking at where they once were and tried to evolve. I think it means trying to figure out what mistakes you've made and trying to install solutions. I think Chichen best fits this model. If the epigraphic record is somewhat complete, i.e. all the key monuments which told a different story weren't hauled off by souvenir hounds, then what we have left is a site ruled not by a god king/"really big man", but by a council. Maybe there was even a glimmer of democracy here--chances are they were all Republicans and Newt Gingrich is lurking out there some where ready to throw a monkey wrench in our readings. What drove this obviously powerful site is speculation. My best guess was the stuff of empire building. You know, war, tribute, slaves, prestige, power--all that heady stuff. I think they went head-to-head with Coba and this displayed the old world view -Vs- the new world view. That the new world view prevailed is pretty obvious if you've spent any time in the back country of Coba. I'm sure if David Freidel is about, he can add significantly to this thought, based on his work at Yaxuna. Ernie: | In Mesoamerica the sacred bubble was also popped, possibly | because the rulers who were the fulcrum of the supernatural powers that | gave the essential subsistence to the people could not counter the | drought or other calamity that in essence made large urban uninhabitable. Paul: The sacred bubble was popping all over the place for a lot of different reasons. Do you know what happened at Cuello? How long did it survive after their last king? How about Copan? The Copan valley was occupied until about 1200 AD, substantially after the last king. See Rebecca Storey's work with obsidian hydration. Ernie: | But from Preclassic times to the early Postclassic there was only | sacred beliefs in the mind of the Maya. Paul: You lost me here. How do you know this? The number of Preclassic texts would fit in my wallet. I don't think it was sacred beliefs which created the major centers. Let me try to explain it in a way you will understand. I remember David Freidel making a point that as "ceremonial centers" it was hard to try to understand why the Maya needed civilization in the first place. He said it quite amusingly when he noted that the average Mayan farmer didn't need some guy in fancy robes and expensive beads telling him how to farm. He knew how to farm. His father taught him as did his father before him. But, when you look at the larger population numbers we are seeing today, the guy in the robes makes sense. He was first and foremost a manager. Through the application of POWER, PRESTIGE and CHARISMA he influenced others and as the system evolved the mantle was passed from "big man" to "big man" until the big man became a god. This is how sites like Tikal, Calakmul, Palenque and all the other primary sites grew from villages to powerful primary political regional capitols. Power built Palenque. Power gave the rulers of Palenque the ability to find and secure the best artists. To look at this site and ignore the power which built it is naive. If you look at the inscriptions at Palenque you will see the god kings creating legitimacy for their right to rule. They and their kind created these sacred beliefs to engender POWER. Sacrifice is another powerful tool. If you don't think people are mesmerized by blood, watch the "rubber neckers" at a traffic accident. The list here is very long, but I'll add to it if you wish. For god's sake take your precious Maya off the pedestal you've put them on and study them as PEOPLE trying to deal with their world as best they knew how. Put yourself in the mind of the shaman as he struggles to understand the meaning of death. Herein lies the spirit you seek. The first night we were in El Tigre this past season we had a lunar eclipse. We used this moment to have the villagers share stories with us. To tell US about the experience. At the same time Venus was casting a shadow on the river as nearly as bright as the moon. It is these kinds of experiences you must encounter to understand the spirituality of the Maya. To be part of the village when an elder dies and you are asked to speak at his grave. To tell a pun and have those around you laugh. To be quick with your mind. To have the ability to laugh at yourself. To show strength and compassion. To be understanding. To make a promise and keep it. To be a man (or woman) of your word. These are the things the Maya I know hold most dearly. I'm sure it's always been this way. Ernie: | This is supported by most (mostly) uncontaminated indigenous | cultures in this hemisphere. Hunting societies, farming societies had | rituals to perform before, during and after what you say is secular. I | believe the entire process to be sacred and only at the Postclassic did | this belief system break down. Paul: No way. The American Indian was praying to his gods and doing their trance dancing the night before they crucified Custer. Read also the Canek "diaries" written by the priest who saw the fall of the Quiche Maya to Pedro Alvarado. The war with Alvarado was seen as a cosmic battle in which the gods determined the outcome. Alvarado when made aware of this didn't even remember the battle, but to the Maya it was the Children of Light against the Children of Darkness with the Blonde "Godwarrior" the victor. Regards, Paul Paul Pettennude