IRC Discussions

For details of next discussion time and topic...please email...agoraphobiaaustralia@hotmail.com


12th September 2000
Speaker Verity Pollard.
Session Time: Tues Sep 12 23:40 2000

{becki} Verity will be speaking tonight about thought processes and what ifs
{becki} she will bring up a topic and then questions can be asked.
{becki} ok everyone :))
{lina} ok
{fruity} kewl
{Verity} Did you all get the chance to read the e-mail to the whole group that I posted earlier?
{becki} yes :)
{fruity} yeah
{lina} yes
{Verity} ok good.
{RaindaeL} yes
{Verity} I'll type out the first part quickly, then we can discuss it - ok?
* pedar looks down at his shoes and says no hasnt had a chance to check email
{Verity} that's ok pedar - I'll retype it in sections, so you won't feel left out.
{Verity} WE all know about the what if's. They're a huge part of the condition we know as Panic Disorder / Agoraphobia and they relate to our symptoms and situations.
{Verity} ie. What if I faint
{Verity} What if I vomit
{Verity} What if people see me shaking
{Verity} What if I have to run out of the room
{Verity} What if the car breaks down
{Verity} What if I go crazy
{Verity} As helpful as Doctors , Counsellors, Family and Friends can be, their well-know comments
{Verity} " But, did you faint"?, " Were you sick ",
{Verity} " Did the car break down?", etc., etc.,
{Verity} often does little to reassure us.
{Verity} Our reply is often along the line of " No, BUT......."
{Verity} ie. But, I came close to fainting.
{Verity} ie. But, the car could have broken down, etc...
{Verity} Does this mean we're just worry-worts? Are we neurotic ??
{Verity} Ok..........................................over to the group. What are your thoughts, comments, etc.... on this first section ?
{Verity} *****
{becki} ok group....are we neurotic because of those thought processes
{becki} thats ok hon :))
{lina} NO
{becki} why?
{Verity} to many other people, we would sound very much ' neurotic '
{lina} I believe that if we were neurotic there would be many things in life that we could not deal with ie normal things in life
{becki} exactly
{Verity} true.
{becki} we have those thoughts because of fear that something may go wrong and
{becki} trigger a panick attack
{fruity} the what if's r so real .. umm ppl who dont suffer the panic .. dont know just how real they are & how they actually take over
{becki} they are real
{becki} thats the point
{becki} but
{becki} we have to rationalise the what ifs....
{lina} For me it is my body sensations that make me think that I am going to pass out
{becki} put them into perspective
{becki} but why do you fear passing out?
{Verity} lina - that's my biggest problem - the fear of passing out. It's so overwhelming - so real. It is real. I know it's real and not all in my head.
{becki} why does that concern become a terror
{lina} because of body sensations in my case hyperventilation, feeling uneasy SCARED
{lina} Verity so how do i deal with that particular fear
{Verity} it's a real feeling of ' being alone ' to deal with it, right?
{pedar} because passing out, say in the grocery store is not "normal" behavior. And it is for me the fear of not appearing normal
{Verity} pedar - that's spot on !
{becki} exactly
{fruity} the umm probs that i am most concerned about are my vision & my legs giving way
{Verity} pedar, you hit on an important point there with your comment.
{pedar} I like all here I suppose deal with these issues on a daily basis
{Verity} It doesn't appear normal, if someone faints, or is sick in public.
{becki} which is tiring....
{pedar} very tiring
{fruity} not just tiring .. draining
{Verity} so, because of that, we have to put up an ' image ' so that we'll seem like we've got everything under control, right ??
{becki} yup....which is why the thought processes well talk about later are so important
{pedar} if you car breaks down in rush hour traffic ..that is the worst, for everyone staring and honking. this a real fear
{fruity} umm try to put that image forward Verity :)
{becki} right.....so we all see that the what ifs are real ok....
{becki} now how to handle them.......
{becki} verity.....floors yours.
{Verity} I'll go into the 2nd section, to move us along a bit further with this.
{Verity} typing ******
{Verity} Consider this :
{Verity} It's a well-known fact that people who suffer a Major Heart Attack and survive, are often very concerned about what they can and can't do afterwards.
{Verity} Common Questions include the following :
{Verity} ie. Can I still exercise after my attack?
{Verity} ie. Can I still go to the Gym?
{Verity} ie. What if I have another attack?
{Verity} ie. Can I still make love with my partner?
{Verity} ie. What if I can't give up the things I used to eat?
{Verity} They're good questions. They're important. They're PROTECTIVE !
{becki} and so are the questions that you have too
{Verity} And, they're all very UNDERSTANDABLE considering what the person has just been through.
{Verity} So now..........
{Verity} Let's go back to US.
{Verity} We experience Panic Attacks. Many people mistake panic attacks for heart attacks.
{Verity} They're not just a bit scary. They're Terrifying. They're TRaumatic. and we simply want to ' Protect'
ourselves from harm.
{becki} break there
{Verity} ok
{becki} ty :)
{becki} ok.....so, is that reasonable or unreasonable?
{becki} to wish to protect ourselves that is?
{lina} reasonable
{pedar} which in my mind, brings us to the avoidance issue.
{fruity} reasonable as far as i can see
{becki} not quite...
{lina} why
{becki} because avoidance is NOT doing what we need to do.....however
{becki} setting up coping mechanisms help us do whta we need to do
{becki} if we allow the doubts to be addressed.
{pedar} yes but it is doing them at, say different times. Like I shop for groceries late at night
{becki} we can find coping mechanisms which get us out and about
{becki} exactly pedar
{Verity} avoidance is a way of coping for us, but it is not a correct way of coping.
{becki} because that gets you on the right track....and familiar again.
{becki} its a softer option which leads to the confidence to tackle it during the day...
{becki} if that makes sense...
{becki} exactly verity...
{lina} becki for example tonight for some reason i didnt realize how far I was from home but how close the corner was
{becki} why?
{becki} because you probably werent thinking too hard :))
{becki} thus what ifs didnt take over...
{lina} dont know especially considering i have not walked in a few days
{Verity} the ideal, is to practice each day, but of course, there are times when we can't practice daily, ie : if we're unwell, if the weather is poor,...
{Verity} during those situations, it's not a good idea to push ourselves.
{becki} to what ifs....
{becki} lina...give us an example of one please:)
{lina} ok so the question is how on earth do we control them
{lina} for me What if I pass out
{Verity} we're just dealing with what they are at the moment - we'll get to how to control them soon.
{fruity} what if i crumble to the ground & cant get up
{becki} any others??
{becki} pedar?
{Verity} fruity, that's a good one.
{lina} What if I panic and I am to far from home and I loose control
{pedar} crowds are a real issue with me
{fruity} what if my eyes give up .. i will be lost
{pedar} say taking my daughter to a parade or picnic
{Verity} for me, it was often...... What if I go all dizzy.
{becki} ok....verity...next section......
{becki} which explains them
{Verity} oh....I was just getting into this one.........sigh............
{becki} continue then :)
{Verity} ok - this is still part of section 2.
{Verity} Is this neurotic to feel this way, to think this way ?
{Verity} OF COURSE NOT
{Verity} But, and here's a different " BUT ", we do need to consider those concerns, because as we know, they do get out of control at times and perpetuate the condition further.
{Verity} Is Positive thinking enough ???
{Verity} (Becki, would you like me to stop at this question?)
{becki} actually yes....ty
{becki} how do we balance and address the what ifs, accept them....yet deal with them?? any ideas?
{pedar} positive thinking does help but ...like a back drop or behind the scenes lurks these unknowns
{Verity} So, the question posed to each person, is : Is just thinking positively, enough to stop these worries ??
{pedar} for me ....no!
{fruity} no
{Verity} also for me......no.
{becki} ditto
{Verity} Ok......I'll continue with this section.
{lina} no
{Verity} typing ******
{Verity} Can we stop our worries by simply telling ourselves to ? I remember my Counsellor telling me that " if we tell ourselves something often enough,
{Verity} we eventually start to believe it."
{Verity} That's true, but it needs to go much deeper than that in order to work.
{Verity} We have to be able to " believe " what we're telling ourselves.
{becki} stop there please hon......
{Verity} It's not good someone telling you that you could travel interstate - why ? Because you " don't " believe it.
{Verity} You're not being negative. You're actually being overly honest and realistic.
{Verity} You could try it, but unless you're even remotely ready to attempt it,
{Verity} you more than likely couldn't do it.
{Verity} Even if you somehow managed to do the trip, what emotional and physical state would you be in when you got there ?
{Verity} end ******
{pedar} cognitive behavior is behavior modification.....changing your thought patterns, like a river changing courses {becki} correct....
{Verity} If I told you that you were not going to faint, would you believe me?
{lina} no
{Verity} especially if we were in the middle of a shopping mall, and you started to panic ???
{Verity} I already know the answers to this, but I want to read it from the group.
{pedar} i believe it has to come from within ones self
{becki} so do i lol....we cheat
{becki} but how pedar?
{lina} exactly how?
{fruity} i would say it is more of accepting our own limitations .. working within our own boundaries .. hopefully we can make our boundaries grow .. knowing how far we can push ourselves
{pedar} yikes i got myself in deep now
{becki} lol
{lina} lol
{Verity} no, getting in deep is good pedar - it's making us look deeply at this condition.
{becki} exactly fruity.....
{pedar} through behavior modification ..with a reward system in place
{Verity} we couldn't deal with this condition before, because we didn't understand it.
{Verity} the more we look at it, turn it upside down, twist it around, etc......the more we'll understand it and know what we're dealing with.
{Verity} it's much more than just having panic attacks.
{becki} understand, accept, inform and desensitise
{Verity} yes.
{Verity} Maybe I'll go on with section 3 now. Then there's only one more after that.
{pedar} If i go to the grocery store on a busy sunday afternoon and dont panic and survive, then I reward myself
{Verity} Excellent !!!
{fruity} but we also need acceptance from those around us (family & close friends)
{lina} exactly fruity
{becki} hmm yes and no
{becki} i did it without that..
{Verity} my family only understood and accepted me, when I could understand the condition and accept it myself.
{lina} I believe that it makes it extremely hard without support
{becki} so support network does help....but can be done without.
{pedar} impossible without support
{fruity} i know i need the acceptance from others .. i am still fighting to gain that
{RaindaeL} yeah, undertanding from family, but the coping comes from within.........no on else can really "make" you cope
{Verity} Yes, very much so. This is a condition that we largely battle on our own.
{becki} well put raindael
{lina} pedar with or without support it is you that is doing the hard work
{becki} you have to have a faith and belief in what you do and stick with it...
{fruity} umm maybe i wasnt clear enough .. what i need is for family to allow me to work at my own pace
{becki} despite the reactions of others around...
{pedar} but they can supply a relaxed non stressful environment that makes us feel at ease
{becki} ahhh......
{becki} they can....but they can do otherwise too pedar...
{lina} i agree becki
{becki} and we still have to recover regardless...
{pedar} or we can do that for ourselves
{becki} its called selfishness and its the most important thing to recovery
{becki} :))
{fruity} like earlier tonight .. i threatened to cancel my trip if my son didnt stop pushing
{becki} YEAH FRUITY
{pedar} yes becki very true ...but that is being unsupportive
{becki} hang on everyone....
{becki} fruity has brought up a good point......why does her son pushing her make it worse??
{lina} pedar I have family that love me dearly but I have to do the recovery on my own and if i do get help it is a bonus
{pedar} that is my point lina
{lina} but i have learnt that you shouldnt rely on people
{pedar} it is only one stone in the path to recovery
{Verity} fruity is already dealing with an enormous pressure in her life - any extra pressure makes the condition far worse.
{becki} you have to rely and trust in yourself at some point...
{becki} exactly verity......
{becki} so we have to disassociate ourselves from pressure, whether from within or outside
{RaindaeL} cos it brings up the fear of that uncontrolled panic....and it's that loss of control over things that makes us rsist or fight the panic.......
{Verity} We fight to keep that control so hard.
{RaindaeL} the harder others push, the more we resist
{Verity} and we get angry at them.
{becki} and then.......??
{fruity} k becki .. he was so excited that i am going to visit .. he wants to drag me all over to visit ppl .. i handed the ph to hubby ... he told my son to back off .. others can visit me where ever i am .. i dont have to go to them .. my son didnt realise .. he had me panicking on the ph
{pedar} lashing outwards .....then lashing inwards
{becki} yup pedar.
{RaindaeL} anger is another loss of control..........
{Verity} beating ourselves up over it.
{becki} we are angry with them, then we get to thinking that we are a failure....
{Verity} guilt sets in.
{pedar} verity: exactly
{becki} and thus making our own condition worse.
{Verity} long term - leads to depression.
{becki} and lack of motivation......
{pedar} anger and fear have been shown to be nearly the same emotion
{Verity} actually, anger and fear are quite different - both raw emotions - both very strong, but not the same.
{pedar} we become angry because we are fearful
{Verity} true.
{pedar} and fearful because we are angry
{becki} although im told you cannot feel fear and anger at the same time...
{Verity} yes.
{becki} thus why i lob so many eggs :>>
{lina} lol
{Verity} lol
{pedar} dozens a week here :)
{Verity} lol
{becki} ok...continue with the typing verity
{Verity} Ok - section 3.
{Verity} typing *****
{Verity} Graded Exposure is not just about getting further away from home and tackling difficult situations physically.
{Verity} It's also very much ' emotional '.
{Verity} Along with positive thinking we need to learn to ' trust our bodies '.
{Verity} We need to see that when we allow the attacks to happen, our bodies react alarmingly, but we can ' reassure ' ourselves during the attacks,
{Verity} that our bodies are ' coping ' and won't let us down.
{Verity} We've got to help by using our coping techniques :
{Verity} relaxing, breathing - until the attack passes.
{becki} and it does pass
{Verity} We have to do this over and over again until we " believe " it to be true.
{Verity} This is the beginning of confidence in ourselves.
{becki} and experience proves it to be true
{Verity} yep.
{Verity} would you like me to stop here becki ?
{becki} actually yes :))
{Verity} ok
{becki} ok guys.....by coping with a panic....we prove to ourselves that we can cope....that builds confidence and improves thought patterns.
{becki} its a snowball effect.
{Verity} How easy do you find it to put these coping techniques into practice during an attack?
{becki} its extremely difficult......
{becki} and painful
{becki} and traumatic....
{becki} but it can be done.....
{Verity} If you're like most people, you'll find it hard to do.
{becki} i liken it to trying to convince myself that grass is really blue....
{fruity} chuckle
{becki} i know that it isnt blue, but i have to convince myself that it is...:))
{becki} which is what we do with panic
{Verity} Usually when an attack happens, we completely forget how important it is to breathe and relax our muscles.
{becki} its a very hard thing to convince ourselves that they dont harm us.
{lina} ok everyone getting really tired i am going but i have really enjoyed the chat
{Verity} We rely on ' instinct ' and our instincts tell us to .........Run !
{Verity} Becki - shall I keep going with section 3.?
{becki} actually....we are way overtime....
{Verity} ok.
{Verity} How bout a quick bit of section 4 then ?
{becki} just scanning it then lol.....go for it :)
{Verity} ok.
{Verity} typing ***
{Verity} As long as we remember that the attack isn't harming us, and is trying to protect us, we can start to see it in a different way.
{Verity} Key : We need to learn to lose the fear.
{Verity} How ?
{pedar} I believe the mind takes it usual course, the one it knows best. In this case the path to a panic attack, but there is another path that is less worn and even has a more plesant view , but the mind does not use it because it narrow and seldom travelled
{Verity} through understanding that the attack is harmless.
{Verity} I like that.
{becki} thats nice pedar....
{Verity} Can Becki put that up on the website ?
{pedar} uhhh sure
{becki} but you do get more familiar with the one with the pleasant view after time..the more you practise..:))
{becki} ty
{pedar} Exactly becki
{Verity} Final line of typing :- **** We lose the fear through understanding, practice and acceptance - this is why it all takes time, but it works.
{Verity} end***
{becki} thankyou verity :))
{Verity} you're welcome.
{becki} i think what we will do is leave the discussion there...but if anyone would like to hang around and chat....feel free...
{Verity} If this will be up on the website, we can all look at it again anyway, and think about it ourselves in our own time.
{becki} we can cover how to understand better, practise and accept next week if anyone wants to
{pedar} through practice we travel that other path until it becomes well used and the path that lead to panic attacks become over grown with brush and is no longer travelled
{becki} yup....
{Verity} I think I will continue to travel the path of panic attacks, but I tread carefully along the way now.
{pedar} that was the end of my original thougt..........slow typist here
{becki} we can also in the next week continue this thread on the mailing list....
{Verity} yep. good idea.
{becki} night night guys.....take care of yourselves and thankyou for coming tonight :)
{becki} we have LOTS to cover
{becki} so we will have more of these and have more time to address particular threads ok

End Discussion.......