Gothic -> Text Files -> alt.gothic FAQ
and others to numerous to mention....
NME and Sounds reputedly took the term Gothic from Siouxsie Sioux (of the Banshees) who
used it to describe the new direction for her band. However the earliest significant usage of the
term (as applied to music) was by Anthony H. Wilson who was overcome by a rare moment of
lucidity on a 1978 BBC TV program when he described Joy Division as Gothic compared with
the pop mainstream. Perhaps Joy Division (who he was managing) are not what we now think of
as Goth but it is possible that they are at the source of the term. Bauhaus were labelled as Gothic
as early as 1979 when they released Bela Lugosi's Dead.
The pop journalists were quick to latch onto the term and they applied it in a nasty sort of
pigeonholing way to a number of bands that were around in the early 80s - most of which did
not sound much like the Banshees (or anyone else for that matter), the journalists were more
concerned with looks. The (Southern Death) Cult was foremost amongst these bands, like the
Banshees they wore lots of black and silver and had extreme black hair. The Sisters of Mercy
were also so labelled and when they split and Wayne Hussey founded the Mission they carried
their label with them, despite being different musically. Finally The Fields of the Nephilim
appeared and they (perhaps) consciously and deliberately got themselves labelled as Gothic
despite looking and sounding quite different to what had previously been labelled Goth.
The fans of bands like the Sisters, Bauhaus and Siouxsie liked to dress up in lots of black. The
music they liked was something of a backlash against the colourful disco music of the seventies.
The Banshees were a punk band before they mellowed and punk was brathing its last as
Gothdom gathered speed, and the so one could claim Gothdom grew out of punk. The music of
Joy Division, the Sisters and Bauhaus was angst ridden but all the hatred was turned inwards and
the music was typified by introspective lyrics. Many of the new Goth followers were
introspective too. Some were a bit confused by the label and started to think that the label Goth
was in some way connected with the Victorian Gothic revival and Gothic horror and because
enough of them thought that eventually it became true.
NME and Sounds were not oblivious to this and produced many hilarious articles poking fun at
the Goths amongst their readers. They said that being Goth was about sitting around in circles on
the floor of pubs (bars) smoking a lot and talking about being a bat. Some readers of this list get
angry at this. Luckily most Goths have a good enough sense of humour to laugh at themselves
once in a while. The first generation Goths complain that second and third generation Goths often
seem to think that Gothdom is about wearing the blackest black, with a lot of silver jewellery and
looking as thin and pale as possible. In common with their older bretheren they avoid the crass
comercialism of mainstream rock and gather together to share their woes :-) They read Bram
Stoker and Anne Rice and talk about being vampires. They read H.P. Lovecraft and talk about
the end of the world.
The sounds that were described as Gothic were appearing in other countries besides the UK in
the late seventies, but I have yet to see any evidence that they were using the word. (If you have
any...) Currently Germany is the bastion of Goth, where they are called Grufties. If German
people are doing a write up on the Goth scene there, please send me a copy. So that's how we
got where we are today. Today Goth is about music, literature, art and about clothes.
Frequently Asked Questions list for
alt.gothic newsgroup
This FAQ was created by Peter Wake (peterw@cs.man.ac.uk), and is currently maintained by
Ryan Watkins (vamp@vamp.org). Please direct corrections and additions to vamp@vamp.org.
This list is posted on a monthly basis to the alt.gothic news group, and is also available via
anonymous FTP at ftp.maths.tcd.ie:/pub/music/gothic/gothic-faq (mirrored at
goth-ftp.acc.brad.ac.uk:/ftp.maths.tcd.ie/gothic/gothic-faq) and in HTML format at
http://www.vamp.org/Gothic/Text/gothic-faq.html.
Special thanx to the following for information provided within :
Contents
Section: 1 Basics
Subject: 1.1 What is a Goth?
The term 'Goth' was used by Ian Astbury who described Andi Sex Gang as a 'gothic pixie' and
popularised by the UK music magazines New Musical Express and Sounds (NME) and was
used to describe a class of music. For some people that music became the basis for a 'way of
life'. They brought their own backgrounds and interests along and a sub-culture was formed and
it took for itself the name Gothic.
Subject: 1.2 What the history of the goth movement?
Subject: 1.3 Is goth about religion?
Gothdom embraces all religions, all denominations and all races. Many Goths are atheists and a
sizable minority are new age spiritualists, Wiccans and members of other alternative religious
groups. There are Christian Goths. Basically Goth is not about religion, but with the imagery of
religion. May goths wear crosses or ankhs, and there are many religious references in goth
songs, but it is not a religious movement.
Goth uses religous imagery in some songs. Christian Death are big on this. Bauhaus did a couple
of tracks with religious imagery. The Sisters have a quasi-religious name but this is ironic, their
music shows that religion is not Andrew Eldritch's main concern - he prefers politics. The
Mission (UK) were fairly 'new age'. Carl McCoy favoured shamanistic traditions and gnostic
revelation. Religious jewellery is often worn, particularly crucifixes and ankhs. These are strong
symbols with powerful subconscious effects. Sometimes they are worn as an satirical statement,
sometimes not. For some it is just fashion.
Subject: 1.4 What does gothic music sound like?
Thanks to John Mc Donagh aka Nascent Virion for a list of what bands he though typified the
Gothic sound. Some may disagree, but this is a rather decent representaion of GENERAL
catagories.
Original Goth:
Bauhaus
Christian Death
Southern Death Cult*
Joy Division (Sometimes had a Goth sound, didn't look very Goth)
Sisters of Mercy
Siouxsie and the Banshees
Miscellaneous Goth:
The Fields of The Nephilim**(Too new to be original, too old to be new)
The Mission (UK) (Early stuff was considered Goth by the music press)
Sex Gang Children
Mellow Goth:
Dead Can Dance
Xmal Deutschland
Danielle Dax (more poppy)
Metal/Industrial Goth:
Creaming Jesus (Metalish)
James Rays Gangwar (Goth w/samples)
(A lot of Goths listen to Ministry but they aren't really Goth)
Experimental/Folky/Occult Goth:
New Goth:
Nosferatu, Rosetta Stone (Sisters/Mission sounding bands)
Shadow Project (Off shoot of Christian Death)
Clan of Xymox (Synth, almost dancey)
* Southern Death Cult (SDC) later split in all directions. Only SDC are condsidered properly
Gothic. However many of Southern Death Cult's Goth followers remained true even when they
entered their 'The Cult' glam metal phase.
** Fields of the Nephilim were so unlike previous Goth it is amazing that they were ever
considered Goth at all. Nonetheless they are one of the definitive Goth bands and most Goths
took to them instantly because of their originality and talent.
See "The Gothlist" by Corey for a much more complete list of goth bands. See 'Subject: 2.2
Where are the gothic FTP sites?' for more detail on how to get a copy.
Subject: 1.5 So what does the word 'goth' mean.
The word 'Goth' does indeed refer to a tribe of the indo-european kind. The Goths slowly
integrated into the melting pot of Europe and basically disappeared.
The word 'gothic' is first found in common usage in 1611, referring mainly to an 'uncivilized lack
of taste or education'. The people who built in the 'gothic' style would have never used this term.
These people were monks or artisans who worked for the church to build a land of Cathedrals
from the 11th century on. They also built castles and other edifices. The 16th century saw a large
amount of turmoil with the reform and all. This opened up the architecture field quite a bit. This
new wave of artists looked back on what they saw as a bland repetitive style of architecture as
'gothic'. Unfortunatly, because of the shallowness of the learned men at that time, it stuck. It was
also referred to as Ogive - or the characteristic arch of this style - this word is usually used by
most politically correct historians.
The fact is: Ogive architecture today is extremely inspiring and beautiful. The nameless men who
designed and built these works of grandor were very talented and inspired. One merely has to
look at the Cathedral of Chartres, Paris, Amiens, Canterbury or any of the other edifices of this
age to realize irony of using 'gothic'. In fact, to augment the irony, the popular opinion today is
that much of the baroque architecture of the 17th and 18th centuries is gaudy and flamboyant.
Section: 2 Internet Resources
Subject: 2.1 What Gothic music lists exist?
The Sisters of Mercy Electronic mailing list run by Pete French (-bat). Send mail to
dominion-request@ohm.york.ac.uk to ask to be added to the list. Send postings to
dominion@ohm.york.ac.uk.
There is also a Fields of the Nephilim Electronic mailing list. Mail to
neph-request@wave.cerf.net to ask be added to the mailing list. The address to post to the list is
neph@wave.cerf.net
ftp.maths.tcd.ie:/pub/music/gothic. This site is maintained by Nascent Virion
There is also another gothic archive site in the United States by Peter Stone
(bat@cyberden.com) at cyberden.com. It contains much of the original gothic archive site as of
12/93, as well as other new material.
Subject: 2.3 Where can I find lyrics, pictures, etc for a goth band?
There is a huge music archive available via anonymous FTP at ftp.uwp.edu:/pub/music. If a band
isnt at the goth archive, it might very well be at the main music archive.
There are also a number of goth World Wide Web servers out there, and the following should
get you started, and most have links to other sites.
The Dark Side by VampLestat (vamp@vamp.org) is
HERE
Rob's Gothic Section is
HERE
The Sisters of Mercy Home Page by Ian Grimstead is
HERE
Subject: 2.4 What are some various Vampire related net resources?
Go ask in alt.vampyres and check out the alt.vampyres FAQ file posted there.
Subject: 2.5 Where can I find this "Goth Test"?
Its available via anonymous FTP at ftp.maths.tcd.ie in /pub/music/gothic/ as 'the_goth_test'. It can
also be found in Take a Bite 1.0 - jokingly subtitled 'the net.goth handbook', which is also
available at the same site.
Subject: 2.6 What are the mail addresses of some goth bands?
Sisters of Mercy Information Service:
The Reptile House Ltd.
PO Box HP29
Leeds LS6 1LS
West Yourshire
England
The Nefilim Information Service:
The Watchman
P.O. Box 17
Stevenage
Herts
SG2 0QX
England
Rosetta Stone Information Service:
Rosetta Stone
31 Ivanhoe Road
Aigburth
Liverpool
L17 8FX
England
Phone: +44 051 728 8998
Subject: 2.7 What comics are Goth?
Subject: 2.8 Are there any good goth clubs in
There is a full list of internation clubs maintained by digitar (digitar@io.org). Email him for a
copy, or FTP 'GothClubs' from the goth archive at ftp.maths.tcd.ie:/pub/music/gothic. There is
also a hypertext version at http://www.vamp.org/Gothic/clublist.html. Please email in any additions
you might have to digitar's list.
Section: 3 Various Trivia
Subject: 3.1 Is the Nefilim a spelling mistake?
This is the name for Carl McCoy's new (yet to appear) band. The rest of the original Fields are
now called Rubicon and have a new singer. They are no longer considered Goth.
Subject: 3.2 Where does the phrase Sisters of Mercy arise from?
Andrew Eldritch chose the phrase as the name of this band from a Leonard Cohen song of that
name. The song may be referring to prostitutes as 'Sisters of Mercy'. There is also a religious
order who are sometimes known by that name.
Subject: 3.3 Are the Sisterhood the same as the Sisters of Mercy?
The Sisterhood was a one shot band created by Andrew Eldritch to stop Wayne Hussey using
the name when Hussey left the Sisters of Mercy. By the way, 25000 pounds was not granted in
a court case - it is merely the advance budget that the Mission didn't get.
Subject: 3.4 What is the best black dye?
Synthetic dyes are best. The 'Ritt' dye rarely works well and tends to be coloured, though it isnt
available in the UK. There is a japanese semi-natural dye (Ginsa?) which is not bad if you can
get it. As for tips on how to actually dye clothes with this:
Don't use a Washing machine. Get a big pot (no, not that one, I said a BIG POT. Put the object
in that you wish to die, and fill it with enough water to cover the object and then some. Remove
the object. This is done to make sure that when you put the article of clothing back in, you don't
die the stove.
Put the pot on the stove and boil the water. The hotter the better. Unfortunately it is difficult to
get the water much above 212f (100c). Add the Dye. Approxametly twice what the package
says and stir (no, not with your arm, and don't use the spoon that you stir spaghetti with either)
add the garment. Boil for a while, turn off the heat and let cool. When the BIG POT is cool
enough, put in a corner overnight. The next day rinse the garment out with cold water as well as
the pot. put the garment back in the pot and fill with vinegar. Let set a day or two, and wash in
cold water with about half the amount of laundry soap you normally use.
Subject: 3.5 What should I use to paint my jacket?
Acrylics are best. Clean the jacket with warm soapy water. Use a 'flexible medium' if possible. If
using Liquitex brand you may get away without. You can varnish with with clear acryclic coating
to protect further.
T-Shirts can be done above but the flexible medium is essential. This way is better than buying
fabric paints.
Subject: 3.6 How do I identify a net goth?
The words net.goth in lower case should be written on them somewhere. The jacket arm just
below the shoulder is recommended by Sexbat (but he may be teasing you - be warned :-)
Subject: 3.7 What has Anne Rice written?
For the best answer, you should read the newsgroup alt.books.anne-rice. Anne Rice is alive and
well and writes supernatural romance. Interview With a Vampire is her mort artistic work but
other books are all good readable stuff with strong themes.
The Vampire Chronicles:
As well as a trilogy of bondage stories under the name of A.N. Roquelaire - which are not
gothic. Two 'romance' novels as Anne Rampling, called Exit to Eden and Belinda, as well as a
short story: Master of Rampling Gate.
Anne Rice's Vampire LeStat Fan Club
Vampire LeStat
P.O. Box 58277
New Orleans, Lousiana 70158-8277
Subject: 3.8 Who is Storm Constantine?
Another Gothic author. Storm is more Gothic and less mainstream than Anne Rice. She has a
series of books which have a lot in common with Anne Rice's vampire chronicles. She is
interested in the occult and in very ancient mythology, biblical connections et cetera. Some of her
ideas are very controversial, often in total contradiction with most well known academic
research. She is published by Headline in the UK.
Subject: 3.9 Any other interesting goth authors?
There are plenty, including Bram Stoker and H.P. Lovecraft. Bram Stoker wrote Dracula and
Lair of the White Worm amongst others. He died of syphilis and was quite mad at the end. H.P.
Lovecraft wrote many short stories, most of which involved the Cthulhu mythos which he
invented. He died after a tragically short career. He had a phobia of cold and was quite
reclusive. He wrote a classic paper on Gothic Horror which is a must read.
Subject: 3.10 Any interesting goth movies?
The German Expressionists are quite Gothic and the film Nosferatu (the B&W version) is
considered very Gothic. The remake: Nosferatu the Vampyre is also Gothic despite being in
colour. The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari is probably the most Gothic film of all.
And of course there are the common ones, "Dracula" (in its many remakes) and The Hunger
staring David Bowie, and "Interview with a Vampire"
Subject: 3.11 Who is Andrew Eldritch, Carl McCoy, Wayne Hussey, ...?
Andrew Eldritch and Carl McCoy are the singers from The Sisters of Mercy and The Fields of
the Nephilim respectively. They are pillars of the Goth community. Wayne Hussey was guitarist
in the Sisters but he left in a bad mood. He then failed to get a slice of record company money
allocated to the Sisters despite a court battle. He and Eldritch are now reconciled personally if
not musically.
Subject: 3.12 What do Pre-Raphaelites have to do with goth?
The Pre-Raphaelites were an artistic movement in Victorian England. They were part of the
revival of Gothic architecture. Their art is stunning - try and see the originals if you can.
Subject: 3.13 What is 'Snakebite'?
Half a lager and half a cider. Lager is what americans would call "beer" and cider is the same
sort of thing made from apples basically. The combination is somewhat lethal. A lot of pubs will
refuse to serve it. Variations: "snakebite black" - the same drink with a splash of blackcurrant in
it, also known as a "purple nasty" up north and is the cliche goth drink (also can be prepared as
snakebite and black with a pernod and a vodka in it). "red witch" - a snakebite with pernod and
black in - not to be taken lightly under any circumstances. "Anaconda" - made with half a pint of
Theakstons Old Peculiar (or another real ale) and a bottle of Diamond White or 1080 (or other
strong dry cider), a dash of black and two straws. It can also be *real beer* and cider (i.e. ale)
e.g. Theakston's Old Peculier (~5.5%) + Scrumpy Jack (erm, ~5%ish), a rather entertaining mix
Subject: 3.14 Whats the best way to dye my hair?
Note: all of the products below should and will need to be purchased at a beauty supply place,
substitute equivalents as needed
Start with healthy hair. In order to do this I recommend using good products. ie Nexxuss etc.
Seeing we cant all afford that kind of stuff, the generics usually work well.
If you are dying your hair just like a standard color try Wella - blue black, Black Cherry, Loreal-
Aurelle Cherry Plum, Clairol- 70R Plum brown. TRY AND AVOID TORRIDS. It is death to
your hair. They look cool but you pay a price in the end. Put a high intensity conditioner right in
the mixture of dye. Use 20 volume developer but not any higher.
"But I want to manic panic my hair! and its already black.. or another color!" First, bleach your
hair. This is a must unless you are a blond. Products that work include Effasol by loreal (use
developer not water), Torrids Platinum Lightening (its death but it works. its a high power tint),
SpeedLighT by Wella.
This can take several tries. It took Lady Renee 8 bleaches over 6 weeks to get my pretty purple
hair, often bleaching her hair 3 times in day for several hours. Leave it in for up to an hour a
process and when the bleach dries it quits working so mist it lightly with warm water. (It
reactivates it) Condition between each process! Or watch your hair fall out.
For the actual Manic Panic, (you can also use Punky Colors or Krazy Colors):
Apply, Wear gloves, it stains.
For even application use a bottle not plop it on and when you think your are done. Slick it
back and use a toothbrush to do your roots.
Leave it in as long as possible and apply heat if you can.
"OH FUCK I made a mess" Well honestly folks, you are in trouble. Manic panic can ruin many
many things. General Substances that will clean you (ears etc ) and your house: Finger Nail
polish Remover (with acetone), Clean Touch (made to remove hair dye..works well), Rubbing
Alcohol, Oxy, Noxema rubbing pads.
11/16/98 10:46:32
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