Once saved always saved?
I wish, BUT, NO!

And from Colossians Ch3. V5-10

⁵Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. ⁶Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. ⁷You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. ⁸But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander and filthy language from your lips. ⁹Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices ¹⁰and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator

See also other verses such as:
Hebrews Ch 12.
(Read before and after to make sure of the application.)
^v15 "See to it that no-one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many".
Just a bit bitter or depressed? Forgive everyone, write off whatever was lost, or stolen, (mentally give it away: "Dear heavenly Father I hereby give this which I owned or believe I was entitled to, to who ever now has it". If it is recovered you can accept it back as a gift). Get christian counselling. Counselling based on evolutionary theories will lead you astray, which is the most common counseling.

Ephesians Ch.4: (King James)

^v29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. ^v30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. ^v31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: ^v32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

^v31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
^v32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Many are called but few are chosen.
To what extent are they called?
To take an interest but feel that it is not their scene.
To repentance and then they gradually fade out, through apathy, or taking other interests as more important, or other beliefs, eastern or evolution perhaps.
Repent and full of the Holy Ghost but then run foul of verses such as Galatians ch5 v19-22, Matthew 12 v32, and then God decides they would be unpleasant to have in heaven.
Could this happen to you? "If you stand, watch out least you fall".

It is now three months since the start and the attack has suddenly stopped its constant barrage, but is still in the background, popping up whenever I lose concentration on something else. I recalled part of a verse, and will have to study it for a while, but I am still deeply concerned and distressed, and want to warn others of the dangers that could befall them.

"Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love." (Eph ch 6 v24)

May God bless you,
Ernie.

Ps. I thought Angelfire was an appropriate web address, as I will be with either Angels or Fire, through all eternity, the only options for all of us.

Update 24 Feb 05.

Because the 2nd world war was on I had very few toys, dad made me a car out of a piece of 3x2inch timber. My sister is 3 years older than me and took to hitting me and running inside calling "mummy Ernie hit me" My parents wouldn't believe me that I didn't hit her and I was in constant trouble over it. One day dad took me, the car and axe to the chopping block and demanded that I promise something, probably that I wouldn't hit my sister, or he would chop the car up. I can still remember my determination that it was not right, and I would NOT promise. I WOULD NOT. Even recently I could remember, and get, the feeling of my heart going like a lump of cold steel, and dad chopped the car up.

I respected my parents, but was never close, obedient, but never loving. There were other problems too, and years later I realised that the only one that I had ever felt was a friend I could trust was the dog.

When I was about 14, I was wondering about life and God, how would you know. A voice, a very nice friendly English gentleman, spoke into my head and said "You will find out later" so I thought thats okay and thought no more of it. A few years later I was pondering the future, life, jobs, pay, etc, and the voice came again with a few words of prediction, which has been true and I have never worried about that aspect.

I found, and loved and got married. Problems emerged, possibly from my feelings of rejection in childhood, and I was upset and distressed, and fuming inside, because I couldn't understand how to fix the problem. counseling didn't help. My wife got saved, and got to work on me, and eventually I repented and changed. Previously I had always felt that I was alone against everybody, but suddenly I felt that even total strangers were like long lost friends. Since My wife was also brought up during the war she probably has problems too, but she won't discuss anything in depth, nor will I at present, I need to be very sure of friendship first. I found that she could be very bossy and domineering, which I can't stand, it screws up my nervous system and I can't think properly. And many years passed.

About four months ago, one of our home computers broke down, and while I was trying to determine if it was the drive or motherboard the symptoms seemed to vary, sometimes it would load and sometimes not. Then I found it was the board but it then corrupted the hard drive and the data was lost, not backed up either. I resurrect an old PC, but the drive was too small, and then my PC wouldn't get the email. Also it was time to go on the planned holiday, and everything seemed to conspire against me, making me very frustrated and angry inside. So I abandoned everything and we went on holiday and I calmed down.

About two weeks later, I was driving down a country road on a nice pleasant sunny day, and the voice came again, and said "You are not saved", oh I thought I was, and tried to keep it at the back of my mind until we stopped for the night.

I hardly slept for the next two weeks. If I was saved and am not now then I have been blotted out, and I know where I am going. If you want to know what the lake is like, just imagine you are in a spaceship that should have rocketed you to Mars, but a malfunction fired the rocket at the wrong time and put you into a decaying orbit around the sun. You would see what look like flames leaping thousands of miles across the surface, the same on all sides of it, and as your spirit sinks into it, it is fire all the way down. But this is not the lake of Revelation as the sun flees away, probably into a black hole, with enough gravity to imprison even the strongest of the demonic spirits.

Is it possible that though I thought that I was saved, that somehow it was held back, until I was really ready? I still respect and like God, and His word, but my feelings of love have been crippled since childhood, and in the marriage, but I still want to really love God. For many years on alter calls being prayed for, particularly to speak in tongues, my feelings in the spirit seem to rise up as if something is going to happen, then suddenly stop dead and there is no feeling. Since my salvation I have had a warm feeling near my heart which I am sure is the Holy Spirit, and a warm friendly feeling towards others.

I decided that I would continue as before, and go to church and take the sacraments, giving thanks for my salvation, which has been a great help for thirty years or more. I dare not tell my wife, as she could well make life hell on earth for me, and I still love her, and want to look after her.

At first I could say that Jesus is my saviour, and really feel that He was, but with feelings of great sorrow it slowly faded out over the next month or so. I can still say it and mean it but the personal inner witness of the Spirit has gone, is too faint, or is not responding.

Each time during a penticostal service when God took some more of the Holy Spirit away I knew somehow, but I don't know how I knew, perhaps it was my spirit that felt the decrease. I was still asking God why and getting no answer. The last time it happened, at the end of the service as I was putting on my jacket, for some reason I looked across to the oposite corner of the hall and saw up in the air the characture of a disembodied face, mouth turned down and looking sad, and he said "goodbye" and the Spirit was all gone from me.

For three months this tormented me whenever I lost concentration on what I was doing, and made it nearly impossible to get to sleep, particularly in the early hours, then suddenly it reduced to a less hostile background problem, but still keeps intruding and taking over my thoughts, so that instead of thinking about what I am doing I find that I have been worrying over this for some time without realising the change of subject.

I have been trying to find out what went wrong. Was it because I hadn't got the marriage to go properly, which was the last thing that I felt that the Lord had said to do? Was it that I was depressed and angry inside because of marriage problems? Ephesians Ch.4 v30: And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Was it because though I attended church I didn't do much bible study, and didn't pray very much? I hardly ever talk, by the time I can assemble a sentence the conversation has moved on, or I can't get a word in.

If God can save such as alcoholics, even though they have relapses, then cannot he also keep safe someone who is having emotional problems, which he would have known about when I was a child?

I have been reading the Bible most days since the holiday and recently read Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. and it briefly glowed, and straight away there came to mind an event of about thirty years ago.

I was fairly new to the faith and my wife who was full of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues, set onto me furiously saying of our child who was trying to speak in tongues, that I should say that it wasn't right. As I have never spoken in tongues, and just wanted to get her off my back, I said something as non-committal as I could, never intending to criticize the Holy Ghost, never even thinking of that, as I probably didn't know of it at that time. I have heard that text in the intervening years, but never remembered the incident, and it didn't occur to me that I may have offended, or that God may have interpreted it that way. I still had the Holy Ghost, and everything seemed okay.

I had always taken Gods promises of I will never leave you nor forsake you, and no-one can snatch you out of my hand, as being a guarantee of safety. But had my tongues talking christian wife snatched me out of Gods hand in less than a minute?
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
This exasperated me for two weeks and it only subsided to a more mild state after I prayed and forgave my wife for this and everything else I could think of, and prayed for her continued salvation. I had prayed similar prayers in years past, except for that one thing I hadn't realised God might be holding against me, but is God listening to me now?
At the time speaking in tongues was fairly common in our church, but some of the other faiths we sometimes mixed with were adamant that it was not for today, and it was forbidden when working with them, and some even claimed it was of the devil, (but I cant immagine how he could have wrested it from God and stopped God from using it). I understand now that it is a communication that the devil cannot listen into. I had one man very sincerely tell me that my church was of the devil as speaking in tongues was only until "that which is perfect has come" and indicated his Bible. Surely if the bible was perfect it would be in such perfect leagal language that it would be impossible for anyone to have a different opinion. But that which is perfect hasn't come, He will come in a few years to rescue Israel from her enemies, and will reign for evermore.
How are you going to find the truth? You have to ask questions, investigate and fossic around for information. There may have been some critical feeling of the person, but certainly not of the Holy Ghost. If this was mistaken for criticism of the Holy Spirit it was certainly never imagined that it could be construed that way, besides she had the Holy Spirit so why didn't he warn her if that was the case?
It's a very poor concept of justice if you can get condemned for seeking the truth. I was only there for a minute or so and didn't realise that something may have gone wrong until about twenty five years later, when I asked if she still spoke in tounges and got a vague reply, but still didn't know when or why, and won't be asking as it could open a very bitter can of worms, and a lot of ill feeling. Some people spur others on with constructive criticism which may have confused things

One thing that has puzzled me is why did God wait thirty years before drawing this to my attention. Was it something else that triggered the decision, perhaps emanating from my depression?
I am sure that there must be many people who have been caught out by one of the possibilities mentioned above. The stakes are very high and preachers need to warn people in no uncertain manner, to shake them out of their complacency.
With the end times coming upon us, Israel a nation, one world government coming soon, the fore-runner of the mark of the beast on sale and accessing bank accounts, (you can get "chipped" to monitor your health or location) such strife in the Middle East that some form of treaty may be imposed, the Pope trying to combine all religions into one all embracing belief, (read about the end time church) God may start pruning heavily, and discarding many whom he does not choose.

Update 26 Mar. 05.

If you have any of those problems mentioned above DON"T QUIT fight it all the way, there may be a way out, and there is too much at stake to lose. If you quit you are accepting the worst outcome.
I have had some encouraging prayers and then at the start of a meeting someone gave a spirited message including the two verses that are troubling me. "I will never leave you or forsake you" and "no-one can snatch you out of my hand". For about a minute I had a very strong emotion, nearly crying, which is the limit of my emotions. Afterwards I couldn't tell if it was for relief and gratitude, or our of sorrow and disappointment. I determined to believe that I had not been snatched.

I am feeling better and wonder if I was given this impression as a warning, and a "kick up the backside" to make me get out of the rut and declare my allegiance. Is it a Job type experience? Perhaps I won't know until the first or second judgement. If I have to give an account, can I lodge my objection to what seems to have been wrongly interpreted, and all my problems seem to follow on as a result of that.

I was of the opinion that if you became "lost" that God wouldn't tell you, but just let it fade out. Otherwise you could become very bitter and antagonistic, and do a lot of damage to other people, even destroying the salvation of some.

Whatever it was it makes no difference to the warnings above, as there must be thousands who's eternal lives are in jeopardy, and I urge them to take a strong stand for Jesus and not give up.

After some very lively services I am feeling more confident that I belong.

Update July 2005.

I had been stressed out for a month or so, tearing at my fingernails worse than I had for years, and praying to God saying that I had not criticized, but was just trying to get my wife off my back. I don't know if God was listening but I kept hammering the point, hoping he would hear at least once.
After a month or so I had this vision:

It was like looking down from an aircraft into solid near black clouds below but suddenly the clouds seemed to roll back to form a cleft, as sometimes happens when you get a glimpse of the land below. The cleft had just opened and suddenly away down in the dark there appeared a little rectangular faint greenish light and instantly there came into my mind, in a manner similar to normal thought, "you didn't do it". There is no reason for me to have thought any such thing of my own volition.

A month or so later I wondered why my nails had grown, and why I wasn't still stressed out and remembered the vision which would have been the most likely cause of the change. Confronted with the greatest disaster one can have, being lost for ever, why was I relatively peaceful? It still attacks me mainly during the night, but is ever present, always in the background.

At the present time I am satisfied that that event was not the cause, and am looking for other valid reasons. There are several that could be the cause, but none that couldn't be forgiven as far as I can see. I am praying for information as to why this has happened, I had been praying for help with the marriage, but not very often, but don't seem to have had much help as yet.

I heard on the radio someone talking about Jesus cursing a fig tree, because he went to it to look for figs, and though it was not the season for them, he cursed the tree. The reason for this was not clear, what was he trying to teach the disciples? The thought given was that it was just because the tree was not fruitful. If we are not fruitful is that legitimate reason to loose our salvation? If so aren't most christians unfruitful, and will so many loose their salvation? Are you one of them? Does Romans Ch2 v5-11 give a second chance to those who didn't make sure of their salvation? It would be very shaky ground to stand on, if it fails there is no hope.

Yours sincerely.
Ernie.

Ps. It doesn't seem like justice to me that people who nearly made it into heaven should be thrown into the lake with Satan and demons whom we hate, but there in no indication in the Bible of some lesser punishment for those who loved God but just barely missed out on salvation. Its like it was in England a hundred or so years ago, you could be hung for a murder, or for stealing a loaf of bread, rather harsh justice. Also in Matthew Ch27 v 44 two thieves were crucified beside Jesus, I wonder how little they had to steal to qualify for this punishment.

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