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The Necessity of Suffering 

 

Most of us have enjoyed the good feeling that we likely may have enjoyed by our initial born-again salvation experience. But after this has past, most of us revert to how we always lived; except now we may go to “church” and try harder to be good. We know nothing of the genuine Christian life for some time to come. In that time we perhaps understood the fact that we are saved from judgment, but in time, we come to realize that our initial experience had little real affect upon how we’ve proceeded to live. For the most part we still continued to suffer the same failures, emotions, temptations, evil thoughts, reactions, anxieties and defective relationships as we always had – but thankfully we are saved.

 

This is reflective of the fact that, since being born again, we’ve all had a huge gap between what little we “know”, experientially, of our true condition in Christ, … and ALL that we actually received by our rebirthing. The preacher or others, in the religious institutions that may have been instrumental in our rebirth, perhaps only told us a very small part of the gospel of grace for today. In fact, most of us never heard the essence of true gospel at all – they only told us “You were lost in your sins, but 1.) Jesus died for your sins so your sins are now forgiven, 2.) You’re saved from God’s wrath and judgment, 3.) You’re going to heaven when you die.” This is all true, but a meager presentation of the whole gospel. But this only deals with the past (our sinful acts) and our future (going to heaven), but does nothing to deal with our present living. The fact is that God has already, with our rebirth, provided all that we need to live overcomingly, in Christ, and by Christ literally indwelling us (Rom 8:8-10, Col 1:27, Gal 2:20).

 

The “gospel” presentation we usually hear is not the Gospel for the Gentiles as delivered by the Apostle to the Gentiles, the Apostle Paul. Paul’s Gospel was the “mystery”, the “gospel of the grace of God”, which is … “the dispensing of Christ’s resurrected Spirit of life and nature into our human spirit” (Col 1:26-27, 2Tim 4:22, 1Cor 6:17). The Apostle Paul, writer of half the books of the New Testament, repeatedly proclaimed the fullness of the gospel that he called “my gospel”

Romans 16:25 “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,”

 

The true grace gospel was given to Paul for us. Ephes. 3:2 “If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:”

 

Actually, the moment we received Christ (John 1:12) we did in fact receive everything we will ever receive and need of Him. Thus Paul writes in Col. 1:26-27 “Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery (Gk. musterion, secret) among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:” and then in Col. 2:10 “And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power;” and in 2 Cor. 5:17-18 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (in spirit): old things (of the old Adamic self) are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” 

 

Nobody told us the two crucial and even deeper aspects of what I call the “seeded secret“ and what Paul called the “mystery hidden from ages and generations:”…hidden “ since the world began”. Paul says his mystery Gospel was NOT prophesied, but rather that it was kept secret and hidden since the world began (Rom16:25). Therefore, the secret was not that Jesus would come and suffer and die (this was prophesied), but that the resurrected Christ-seed (1Pet 1:23, Gal 3:16b) would come and live in humans (this was kept secret), making recipient men to be His body, the Church (Eph 1:22-23).

 

The seeded secret goes yet further to entail all that Christ brought to man in reality. The deposit of Christ’s seed in us includes, 1.) Our death with and in Christ, and also, 2.) Our new life by Christ indwelling our spirit. Both aspects, our termination and our germination, are clearly seen in, Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”  

 

“Full salvation” is better understood by coming to see that the life of Christ, birthed into our human spirit, must then flow into our yielded soul; thereby a man becomes a partaker of the divine life and nature (2Pet 1:4) in his soul, as well as his spirit. This is to be “saved” as spoken by Paul in Rom 5:10 “For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved (saved is in Greek. sozo, meaning, “completed”) by his life.” Here the Greek for “saved” is “sozo”, meaning, “completed”. We’re completed, first by partaking of the divine life and nature, by Christ becoming one with our spirit (John 3:6, 1Cor 6:17), then by His flowing His life into our yielded soul, to complete our creation.

 

It is by regeneration in our spirit that we’ve already received everything that Christ is to us. Christ does not give peace; He is our peace and rest. He, Himself, is the peace dwelling in our spirit. “These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might (may) have peace (“peace” Greek. eirene, meaning, “rest”). In the world ye shall (will) have tribulation (Gk. thlipsis – “pressure”):” (John 16:33). We enjoy Christ as our rest by abiding, not in the world, but in Him who is abiding in our spirit. The “ye” that is called to abide in Him is the “ye” of our soul, our self. We have a part in living by His life, we are called to abide in our inherent union we have with Him in our spirit. Thus our soul self is called to abide or remain subservient to Him in our spirit.

 

If Christ is in our spirit (2Tim 4:22) and Christ is “all” (Co. 3:11b), such that we no longer need anything more. We might ask, “So then, why don’t I live overcomingly, with His peace and rest?” This admission of recognized failure to live overcomingly with rest and peace is good for us, because it exposes and reveals to us the gap between our rock solid “standing”or position in Christ, and that of our present feeble “state of being”. Recognizing our failure as a Christian is a necessary crisis and a blessed realization that must have if we are to ever let go of self-reliance and live by His overcoming life within us. 

This knowledge gap exists because we don’t really “know” who we are, and all that we in fact received by our new birth. I’ve italicize the word “know” because I do not speak of a knowing as a mental ascent to a truth of scripture gained in the mind (Gk. gnosis), perhaps by memorization or bible study, but rather I speak of an “experiential knowing” expressed in the Greek as “ginosko”, meaning, “to know by experience, a coming to know, a coming to see, an intimate knowing”. This is knowledge that is gained by the experience of our living and suffering, both before and yes, after we are born again. The Holy Spirit makes the truth of our present state of being revealed to us by suffering these experiences; that may ultimately find and realize Christ is really alive in us. This is crucial knowledge, as demonstrated by the old story that “You’ll never dare write a check against the money in the account if you believe that there is no money in the account”. Until such a time as this knowledge come to us, we will live beneath our means. Most Christians live their life on this earth far beneath their means. They do not “know” their true state and the real hope of the glorious expression of His life available to flow from within their spirits. The knowing that empowers us is not of us; it comes only by divine revelation on the heels of an experience. This revelation is usually brought about by our suffering life’s experiences. Our growth in grace and knowledge (2Peter 3:18) is entirely of His work in our lives (Philip. 2:13). It is only by His work in our lives, His grace, and mercy that the necessary revelation of our present state and our real state in Him may come to be seen – that we might begin to walk therein.

Thus, most have not “known” Paul’s mystery gospel – it requires God-given revelation! Romans 16:25 “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,” (See” “The Mystery” by Art Licursi, for further explanation)

 

Paul alone, among the disciples, was given to preach his mystery gospel of  “Christ in you” as your life (Gal 2:20). He was not taught this but rather by the disciples that walk with Jesus of Nazareth, rather he received this Gospel message directly by revelation from Jesus Christ (Gal 1:12) “To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28Whom (the Christ in the believer) we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect (complete) in Christ Jesus:” (Col. 1:27-28)

 

Paul says “Christ in us makes us” is what makes us a Christian, and as we began in Him we are to walk in Him (Col 2:6) Religion mostly tells us that we’re only proven to be real Christians if we “do” the right Christian things. Paul says we are who we are not by what we do, but rather we are who we are by being regenerated, as the Father’s children (Rom 8:16); regenerated by this Christ seed. Christ indwelling us, in place of the old us is the Father’s seed (Gk sperma, 1Pet 1:23, Gal 3:16). We are Christians because we are the Father’s offspring, birthed by the Father’s Seed of life in Christ, not because we “do” or do not “do”. Maintaining our sonship does not depend upon us working hard to become better, but rather it exists only because we have Christ alive in us; and He will never leave us nor forsake us. 

 

You then may ask, “What do you mean Christ in us?” “Precisely where is Christ located - where is our new life?” Jesus said that it is” the spirit giveth life”, and Paul tells us that Christ “the Lord is now the Spirit” (2Cor 3:17) and He has placed His Spirit in us (1John 4:13). We are now “one in spirit” with Him (1Cor 6:17) as” our life” (Col 3:4).

Now look at these few verses, sequentially. 2 Cor. 3:17a “Now the Lord is that Spirit:” and in 1 Cor. 15:45b the last Adam (Jesus Christ) was made (became) a quickening (life-giving) spirit. In 2 Tim. 4:22 Paul tells Timothy exactly where Christ is located “The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit…” John wrote in 1 John 4:13 “know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit”. Paul again, Col. 3:3-4 ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life…” 

Thus, God, in Christ, as the resurrected Spirit of Life, is now in our human spirit, as our new source life to live out from our spirit to be expressed in our soul (mind, emotion and will).

 

Paul repeatedly prayed for one thing, for revelation for us, and by such prayers it reveals that even Paul was dependent upon God to reveal and make His indwelling riches known to us. “Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 17To whom God would make known (in soul-mind) what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you (in your spirit), the hope of glory (HIS life expressed in you): That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,” Ephes. 1:17-18   Paul prayed six such prayers – all for revelation, knowledge and understanding to come to the believers. Paul knew that no man holds the power of revelation – for that is God’s prerogative, because only God knows the true, seeking heart of a man.

 

Scripture makes clear that man consists of spirit, soul, and body (1Thes 5:23). A man’s “soul-self”, which Paul refers to as “inward man” and also as the “inner man”, needs renewal, and the renewing source is “the spirit of life” (Rom 8:2), already dwelling within the spirit of every reborn child of God. 2 Cor. 4:16 “For which cause we faint not; but though our outward (body) man perish, yet the inward (Gk. esothen – our man derived from inside – our dependent, spiritually minded soul-man) man is renewed day by day.” Ephes. 3:16 “That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be Strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; (Gk. eso, inside, soul/mind, self)”

 

Our “inward man” is the self-man of the soul, the ego – the individual; our outward man is the body. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day” 2 Cor. 4:16. In each day of our lives, He is working to renew our soul.

Our “inward man” has been the deceived, independent self, the man of the soul mind, emotion and will. The soulish man may well be an unrenewed Christian, one who is natural (natural in 1Cor 2:16 psuchikos, man “of the soul”), and he lives by his own resources, unaware of, ignoring or over-riding the indwelling life of Christ in his own spirit meant to be his life source.

 

Even after being born-again, we ignorantly look to the “law of good and evil” as taught by the religionist who may cling to the Old Testament law, not knowing that the law actually empowers sin (see 1Cor 15:56b). The law fails because it provokes us to work to serve God without dependence upon God. It feeds our inborn independence. Law, Natural law, God’s law, Mosaic Law written on stone or paper, and religious laws of tradition are lifeless, impotent; they offer no life and power for living an overcoming life. In Rom. 7:18-23 Paul writes of the impossible and frustrating situation of an, independent, believing man; who agrees with God’s law by his soul’s mind, … but is absolutely powerless to overcome sin indwelling his fleshly body. Romans 7:22-23 “For I delight in the law of God (outer law regulation) after the inward (Gk. eso is the individual inside man – soul/mind self) man: 23But I see another law (regulating principle or nature) in my members (body), warring against the law of my mind (knowledge of good and evil), and bringing me into captivity to the law (regulating principle or nature) of sin which is in my members (of my body).” This is the frustration of the independent self-reliant Christian. For the independent man of the mind, his flesh is more powerful than his will. Turned up willpower and resolving to try harder will never work.

 

If we in ourselves are weak against the flesh then how do we as Christians go from being independent self-reliant selves, to “put on” the new man, the spiritual man? Well, we “learn” by the experience suffering the circumstances and situations of everyday life. They are each designed for us us to give up “trying”, to “let go” and to “sink into” Christ. To trust and rest in Him for our daily living is what it means to “put on” the new man. It is not a work but rather a giving up of self-effort. Col. 3:10 “And have put on (Gk. enduo, meaning “to sink into as sinking into a garment”) the new man, which is renewed in knowledge (Gk. epignosko, experiential knowing) after the image of him that created him:”

 

Not knowing the fullness of the mystery of the literal life of “Christ in us”, we only continue to depend upon “ourselves”. The indwelling of Christ is the most often mentioned truth from the books of John to Revelation. The god of this world has deceived us into thinking that we must make the Christian life work for us; we ignorantly think, “With enough effort, we can make it work”. So, we endeavored to live the Christian life in our own strength. But, if we’re honest, we must admit there is that gap. We just don’t have the resources from ourselves to live on this earth with peace and rest. We need to see the truth of Hebrews 4:10 “For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.”

 

God in His mercy has ordained circumstances and situations to come to us to expose our lack, our need of dependence upon the indwelling Christ as our life. It is by our recognized need, our failure to have peace and rest in those circumstances and situation that is meant to force our hand to let go to trust Him as our all. Suffering failure is for the purpose of making us honest, so we will see our need of relying upon His capable indwelling love and life. Suffering by the common everyday life circumstances and situations helps us see and admit to our need, and to find another “Way” to live life.

 

Now please permit me to briefly explain what “glory” is. Glory, which seems so ambiguous and indescribable actually simply means “expression.” The flower’s life, derived from its seed, is ultimately fully expressed in the flower’s blossoming. So the blossom is the glory of the life that is in the flower. For the flower’s seed to germinate, it must first suffer death to its outer shell (by being buried), and only then is new life released out of that death. This is allegorical to the very life-process Jesus spoke of in John 11:24 concerning the process of life. Here Jesus is telling us that He is as the seed, and that by His death, His life would be multiplied. We are the multiplication of and enlargement of the one life of that Seed - Christ. We are thereby the “glorious expression” of the Lord’s seeded life. We contain His life for His expression.

 

I described glory because the “shell” I mentioned above, containing to spirit of a man, is his independent soul-self that must be broken, in order to release the life of Christ that is within that man’s spirit. “And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.” John 12:23-24 Only His life released brings forth fruit of God unto God.

 

We must see that there is a great connection between suffering and glory (expression). With no suffering, there can be no knowledge by realization of who we are NOT. We are Not the gods of our own life. Suffering exposes that truth to us. We are NOT adequate in ourselves to live life overcomingly as evidenced by our lack of rest and peace. We are not in control. We learn this only by suffering self-failure. To me, the greatest suffering is the loss of control, but suffering circumstances that are beyond our control brings us to that realization. That Satan inspired illusion of control must be broken if we are to turn our hearts to trust Christ in us as our life. Without suffering failure, we cannot come to the knowledge of we really are – as a dependent child of God the Almighty Father, who loves us and is fully sufficient to father us, in love.

 

The cup of suffering  (Mark 10:39) is crucial to our being able to realize the truth of our state, as it was for Paul when the Lord denied his three pleadings to remove the thorn Paul suffered in his flesh. The cup we drink from in life is always at the hands of our loving Father. Jesus willingly took the cup of suffering at the hands of His Father, so that His glorious life might be multiplied and expressed. Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?” John 18:11Taking the cup revealed Jesus’ true state of utter yieldedness and dependence upon the Father. Paul admonished the Philippians Christians to have the same attitude or mindset of Jesus, who suffer obedience unto the cross (Philip 2:5-8). The Father now administers the cup of suffering to us, that we might let go of self-dependence in order to trust Christ in us. Then we may go from a “hope of glory” to His actually being glorified or expressed in our lives? This suffering we endure is the Father’s best for us.

 

The Father uses all things for our good (Rom 8:28-29). The evil doing of Joseph’s brothers was from God and meant for good. “But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good...” Gen 50:20

 

Paul sat in the Roman Caesar’s prison, yet he said he was the “prisoner of the Lord” Ephes. 4:1a We see from this that Paul considered his suffering to be actually at the hands of God his Father. Trusting God His Father, Paul learned to be content in whatever state the Lord placed Him.

 

People who are ignorant of the truth of the indwelling Christ will persecute most Christians, who desire and seek to walk with Him. Frankly, these most often are other Christians. The cruelest suffering I’ve endured in this life has been at the hands of my “brothers and sisters in Christ”. Paul says we may be may denigrated, defamed, and vilified as we seek to walk with Him. “And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled (vilified), we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: 13Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth (refuse) of the world, and are the offscouring (scum) of all things unto this day.” 1 Cor. 4:12-13 You will be misunderstood if you follow Christ within. Jesus was misunderstood by the men who reviled and killed Him only because He also claimed, as we do, to be one with the Father, as His offspring bearing His very life in our spirits.

 

It’s not at all strange for a Christian to suffer. It’s the smelting and purifying furnace for His glory to be revealed in us. “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery (smelting) trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.” 1 Pet 4:12-14

 

God’s suffering, ordained or prescribed for us, is for our good since it does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. We cannot make our self to trust God – so it is He that is at work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil 2:13). “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.” 1 Peter 5:10 

 

Paul, bore His name (the authority of His person), but this came out of Paul’s suffering. Jesus came “in the name”, as “the authority of the literal Person” of the Father. The Spirit of Christ flows out of us in the name and literal person of Christ – but first we must be broken in soul to release His Spirit. “ But the Lord said unto him (Ananais), Go thy way: for he (Saul/Paul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name (my person) before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16For I will shew him how great things he (Paul) must suffer for my name’s sake (name = person, for the sake of the expression of Christ’s life)” Acts 9:15-16. Many want to speak with God’s authority but this only comes as we submit to or suffer His Lordship from within – then our speaking will be His speaking.

 

His glory is revealed only out of suffering. “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together (together with Him in us, as one). 18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed (not to be “given” to us but revealed as already there) in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.” Romans 8:14-19 

 

Our lot in life is to be brought to express His life in us through the instrumentality of suffering the loss of our independence and our illusion of control. “For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus (Spirit of Life) might be made manifest in our mortal flesh (earthly life in body). 12So then death worketh in us, but life in you. 13We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16For which cause we faint not; but though our outward (body) man perish, yet the inward (soul) man is renewed day by day. 17For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2 Cor. 4:11-18 

 

He “favors us” with His believing and then with His suffering. “For unto you it is given (“given”, good things, is “favoring us with”) in the behalf of Christ (on the part of Christ), not only to believe on him but also to suffer for his sake;” Philip. 1:29  By now we should see that suffering is from God and something wonderful, but something that we cannot do in ourselves. By suffering, He pushes us, wrenching our hands open to let go of control, to trust Him. It forces us to admit defeat, to trust our Father for all  - just as Jesus did, and now does even in, us as we yield to trust His indwelling life. Suffering is the cure for our self-reliance. “But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:” 2Cor. 1:9 

 

Suffering is also the cure for the pretense, so common to those trapped in religious circles. Religion’s demands fosters pretense - hypocrisy. Religion demands that which you cannot do. Religion measures you by the outer appearances and demands that you appear a certain way - always victorious, full of prayer, spiritual, etc., but God looks upon you knowing the thoughts and intents of our heart. With religion presription, you must, try hard, pretend, be in denial, or drop out. Religion demands are used of God to frustrate us that we might ultimately drop trying self-improvement and find Him, His life, His love, and grace alone, as our sufficiency. Suffering overwhelming situations brings us something we no longer can handle or cover up. Intense suffering cracks our facade, opening us to face reality of our utter neediness. We may have hidden behind a once necessary facade (to conform or please others), but now He must break it down for us to know Him within, to sense and hear Him alone, as our life, guide and rest. This is who we really are - we are Christ-persons, no longer of ourselves. Thus, we come to bear His life and expression, as He desires to be, in our living. He is becoming the Lord of our life. 

 

By suffering He causes us to see our self-reliant selves as inadequate and consequently amplifies our seeing Him as the all-sufficient loving life dwelling within us. We see that we need the reality with Him. By contrast He makes us to see and know (by ginosko, “experiential knowing”) for differentiating between our soul-self & our true spirit-self. He is dividing our soul-self from our spirit-self. Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart”.

 

The purpose of suffering is so that we would choose to yield, “let go”, and be willingly resigned to His will in all matters, regardless of appearances. We are brought to yield, that we would permit His life and expression to flow out in obedience. 2 Cor. 12:9 “And he said unto me, My grace (Christ in you) is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” We must become resigned to trusting Him and His way as best for us. Philip. 4:11-13 “Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.”

 

Intimacy with Christ, which only comes by suffering, is our “consolation”. “And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation (Gk. parakaleo, “being called near”). 2 Cor. 1:7 Intimacy with Him is to know Him by tasting life out of death.That I may know (ginosko, experientially know) him, and the power of his (out) resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;” Philip. 3:10 We have mutuality in “suffering with Him” by His one death and life in us. “It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: (“live” here and Rom 6:8, Gk. “suzao” means “in common with” - not 2 lives but one life) If we suffer (remain under), we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny (contradict) us:” (2 Tim. 2:11-12) <END>