Great Books of the Western World

So you're thinking of joining?

A web page by Alan Nicoll

Revised 7/1/05

Describing the Yahoo groups:
The Great Conversation and
More Great Conversation

And here's a link to our Great Books Web Page

Introduction for Prospective Members

If you are interested in the Britannica Great Books of the Western World (GBWW) or if you want to enhance your education through history, philosophy, literature, and science, free membership in the Great Conversation Yahoo group may be for you. This page is designed to help you decide whether you want to join, which group to join, and to give you a mechanism by which to join. Memberships must be approved by the Group owner, but no one has been turned down to date.

Yahoo Group Update

As of 11/30/05, The Great Conversation group membership has grown to 92 members and remains open to new members. A second group--"More Great Conversation"--is also accepting new members and is just getting started.

The Great Conversation group is devoted to following the 10-year course of reading as outlined in volume 1 of the GBWW. It is intended for members who are committed to following the plan, though occasional additional reading may be requested. Members should have access to the GBWW 54-volume first edition, though the second edition is even better, and almost all the required texts are available in libraries or online.

The More Great Conversation group is designed to supplement the Great Conversation group. It will read and discuss texts outside the Western Civ tradition, probably focusing on Asian civilizations. Because there is no ten-year reading plan for this group, the approach will be more flexible and the pace will likely be slower. The group is just getting started (founded 11/4/05), so join now! There is a link below. Also, you can view the reading list for 2006.

The Great Conversation

I had a vision about what this kind of group could become. You get together five or ten people who are willing to make a commitment, for maybe five years, toward educating themselves--and toward the group. You make your best effort to read the assignment and give it your full attention for as long as it takes to "get it," and you write: your impressions, what you've learned, how it affects your world view. Frequently and at length. And everyone reads what the others have written and comment back and forth. Clearly, a group like this will work only with a group both willing to stick with it for a while, and willing to write often.

But the rewards could be fantastic. Not only a "liberal education" as envisioned by Robert Hutchins, but perhaps a small group of intimate friends you've never met.

To join the Great Conversation Yahoo group, you will need the following:

If you are unfamiliar with the Britannica Great Books of the Western World, take a look at my Great Books/Great Conversation home page. I also suggest that you obtain volume 1 (of the first edition!) and read it. If you decide to join The Great Conversation Group in December, 2004, that will also be your first assignment. You can, however, join before doing this reading.

What is "The Great Conversation"?

"The Great Conversation" is the title of volume 1 of the GBWW. Some quotes from this book are available at this site. What is "The Great Conversation"? According to Mortimer Adler:

"...the conception of a great conversation across the centuries was the controlling principle that governed both the composition and the use of this set of books. It gives the set a unity and continuity that distinguishes it from all others...."

"What binds the authors together in an intellectual community is the great conversation in which they are engaged. In the works that come later in the sequence of years, we find authors listening to what their predecessors have had to say about this idea or that, this topic or that. They not only harken to the thought of their predecessors, they also respond to it by commenting on it in a variety of ways." [1]

Why did you start this group?

I, Alan Nicoll, am the owner of the Great Conversation group. I am starting this group because I recently acquired the GBWW set and wish to pursue the 10-year reading plan. While I recognize the limitations of the set, I also find the idea and the works themselves attractive. I am under no illusions that this reading will greatly improve my education or that it will somehow make me a better person. I pursue this course purely out of interest, but it is my intention to stick with it at least for a year or two and see how it goes. It is also my intention to write a great deal about this experience, with the possible intention of turning this writing into a book someday.

But I don't have the books!

You don't absolutely need them, but they are convenient to have on hand. To most easily and fully participate in the Great Conversation group, you will need access to the Britannica Great Books of the Western World 54-volume first edition. This edition was published in various formats from 1952 to 1990. In 1990 the 60-volume second edition was published. Most larger libraries will have one or both available, though some libraries may not have volumes 1 through 3 (The Great Conversation and the two volumes of the Great Ideas--the "Syntopicon"). These volumes are convenient but not needed for following the ten-year reading plan. Assignments will be posted at the GC web site and at the Yahoo group.

Used copies of the first edition are generally available through eBay at around $150.00 and $50.00 for shipping, with individual volumes typically going for $5.00. If you have access only to the second edition, that should be sufficient because virtually all the works of the first edition are included in the second. If you do not have access to the GBWW set right now, you can join anyway and get individual volumes as we read them, either by purchase or from the library. Most of the texts we will be discussing will be available in other editions or are available on the Internet.

If you do buy the books for purposes of joining this Group, however, please don't expect me to buy them back if you drop out! I have no interest in selling these books.

What are the advantages of joining?

Reading the Great Books of the Western World can be a difficult and lonely process. If you have people you can talk to who are reading the same books at the same time, you'll get many of the benefits of taking a college course "in the comfort of your own home." Many of our members are college graduates, and we even have a philosophy professor or two. If you have questions about the current assignment, you can expect courteous and generous answers. Best of all, it's free. Worst of all, you don't get college credit.

Do I need a commitment to the Group?

I hope to write in detail about each of my reading experiences with the Group. I would like a similar level of commitment from group members, but this is not required. The Group is entitled to know what each member thinks of each work read, how it affects their thinking, what parts they liked or didn't like, and so on. Consider this a "monthly report," if you wish, but the point is to generate discussion and increased understanding of each work. Most Yahoo groups fail, if they do, because most members contribute nothing. As it happens (11/30/05), most members are not contributing, and the discussion varies greatly from month to month. Unfortunately, I also have contributed very little due to lack of time and too much "on my plate."

But I can't write!

You'll learn. That's part of what makes a "liberal education," and the most important thing in good writing is practice. But most of our members have never posted anything to the group. Such "lurkers" are also welcome... but if you choose to join, you should make an effort to post from time to time. You'll find that it greatly increases your sense of ownership and commitment.

But I don't know anything!

If you are unfamiliar with the practices of college literature courses, have never read anything more demanding than the latest Stephen King novel, really hate math and science, and can't even spell "philosophy," boy, do you need this reading plan! You'll still be welcome to the group.

How much time will it take?

You will need free time to devote to this project. In a typical month we may read 125 pages; the GBWW format compresses a lot onto each page, so that 125 might be equivalent to 400 pages of a normal book. So the reading burden is about a book a month.

This may mean giving up some of your pleasure reading, if you do a lot of that, or giving up other projects. It's up to you to decide how to manage and prioritize your time. You should expect to spend as much time on this project as you would on a college course in literature--but probably less than an hour a day. And, naturally, you can choose how much time you spend with any particular reading selection. There really are no requirements, only recommendations and requests.

What if I don't like the books?

If you are concerned that you may not want to read the complete works of Thomas Aquinas or Aristotle, know that I share your concern. However, in looking through the ten-year reading plan it becomes clear that the "tougher" works are not read whole, but in generally rather small pieces which are related to previous reading. In addition, the ten-year reading plan does not mean reading every page of every book; more than half is omitted.

Some members may balk at reading any of Euclid or Newton. I have a good background in math and science, so I don't anticipate too much trouble getting through these requirements. But I am not going to give anyone a hard time about this. Anyone who simply refuses to read a given work, or even all the math and science, won't be "kicked out" provided they are willing to otherwise follow the program. After all, there may be something in the set that I'll choke on. My purpose is not to exclude people, nor to bore people, but to share an intellectual experience. I recognize that not everyone will enjoy all the same things. But I do think that this enterprise, if we can stay with it and give it our best effort, will be very rewarding and a source of pride, and hopefully lead to some deep and lasting friendships that otherwise seem all too difficult to come by.

What's the down side?

The GBWW set has been harshly criticized by some for erratic selection methods, poor translations, and insensitive book design. It has been highly praised by some as the salvation of western civilization. Doubtless the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For a look at some harsh criticism, read this New Yorker article from 1952. For high praise, read these quotes from Robert Hutchins, editor of the GBWW first edition.

If you don't want to join...

Non-members will have access to the archives of the Great Conversation group and are certainly free to correspond with members or submit emails for possible posting to group members. Just check it out and see what you think.

So, how about it?

If you wish to give the ten-year reading plan a try and want to be in the company of others who are working with the same texts, please click on the link below.

Am I too late?

We started the ten-year plan on January 1, 2005. But you are still welcome to join.

The general approach for each group will be much the same as that of Group I, using the 10-year reading plan of the GBWW first edition. Differences in reading will largely be confined to supplemental assignments.

To join The Great Conversation Yahoo group (Group I), here's the easiest way:

Click here to join GreatConversation
Click to join GreatConversation

OR:

The discussion group called More Great Conversation will discuss books that are not included in the Britannica GBWW, and these will mostly be outside the Western Civ tradition. Reading for 2006 will focus on China and India, and the approach as much as possible will be consistent with the Great Books concept.

Click here to join more_great_conversation
Click to join More Great Conversation

REFERENCES
[1] Mortimer Adler: "The Great Conversation Revisited," in The Great Conversation: A Reader's Guide to Great Books of the Western World, Encyclopaedia Britannica, Inc., Chicago, 1990, p. 28.
Great Books of the Western World GBWW Home.

Alan Nicoll's Home Page

Alan Nicoll's email address is: Alan_Nicoll@Yahoo.com. Your comments are welcome. Join the Great Conversation!