************
INTPs: that they're closed to information that doesn't fit in with the
conceptual structure they've erected in their heads. These kindred
stereotypes suggest that the problem has less to do with the ability
of either type to "hear" what's being said than it does with the kind
of information each type regards as relevant.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Ironically, this is also where other types become frustrated in debates
with INTJs, because one eventually bumps up against the outer rim of an
Intuitive arc, at which point the INTJ will say, "No, the information you're
offering is not relevant. If you want to talk about that, we have to agree on
a different set of logical reference points." Probably 3/5 of the exchanges
I've had with Scot in this forum have been devoted to that sort of thing.
Whereupon he starts pointing: This IS relevant information! Look at it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
INTJs experience themselves as contending with a closed system that
shortcircuits alternatives. The subject was differences between the way the
preferences experience God.
T's "debate and dialogue on matters of faith."
F's "discuss and persuade in matters of faith."
~~~~~~~~~~~
As for ISTJ or NP, one clue will be your communication style. The STJ is role
directive, whereas the NP is role informative. If you start to watch people
for these two ways of communicating, it becomes very clear very fast.
~~~~~~~~~
The reason why Fe+Si or Si+Fe is conservative is not in either Fe or Si alone.
It's in the ombination. Strong Si enables one to learn concrete things like
rules, facts and traditions. Strong Fe makes one want to learn socially
accepted rules, facts and traditions.
~~~~~~~~~~
Lecturers seem to be introverted intuitives - bound to a particular way of
thinking and push their language and limited academic interests above all else,
neglecting both the big picture and practicalities. People a lot less N than
our good selves feel there's something missing.
~~~~~~~~~~~
The reason why Fe+Si or Si+Fe is conservative is not in either Fe or Si alone.
It's in the ombination. Strong Si enables one to learn concrete things like
rules, facts and traditions. Strong Fe makes one want to learn socially
accepted rules, facts and traditions.
Using S means not bothering to find out any with deeper, underlying meanings of
whatever encountered, but choosing to take it as it seems to be.
Using N means pondering the underlying connections between things and whatever
patterns they possibly represent.
Using T means organizing perceptions in a linear and logical fashion, relying
on impersonal principles and rules of inference.
Using F means organizing perceptions in a non-linear and lateral fashion,
relying on weigh of evidence and personal value.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Disagreement with an F's ideas is generally taken personally - it is hard for
an F to separate themselves from anything they do, because of their
people-centred view of the world. Attacking the F's cerebral contents in an
argument is tantamount to an attack on them personally. "I feel, therefore I
am". I find that with Fs, the best approach is the gentle one. With the NFs,
it is vitally important to to show them that you are not disagreeing with
*them*, just perhaps you are not understanding their point of view *yet*. With
the SFs, it is important to show them that they are none the worse off for you
disagreeing with them, and that we can all live and let live and they are in no
way threatened by the disagreement.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I find that the SFs are the most difficult to deal with; first of all, we don't
speak the same language - SP communicates by objects and exclusively sense data,
my NT by abstract ideas. The SFJs are terrified of rocking the boat, whereas
an SFP gets frustrated by the obtuse, hyperbolic language of an N. ISFPs, for
example, communicate more by actions than words, and hence they tend not to be
as verbally articulate as an N. Whereas an N, especially an NT, is almost all
words and nought else.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
What you call F-judgement is what I would call "personality"-- for example, if
I decide to sign up for a course just because all my friends are going to be in
it, then that's an F-judgement call, and if someone criticizes that, then it's
like criticizing who or what kind of a person you are... That's just an F
interpretation; I think that F's naturally get personally involved with their
decisions, so by criticizing a decision, you could be criticizing the person.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Adolescent NTs, whose impersonal thought processes and increasing verbal skills
prompt them to treat conversations as though they were pinball games. Most NTs
get over this somewhere on the far side of puberty, and they're just as
impatient as you are with people who think the primary goal of dialogue is to
shoot down others' ideas and rack up the most points.
~~~~~~~~~~
When NT's debate they generally believe that their view is the correct one from
the beginning. And it's very important to them that their view *be* correct,
because holding an incorrect idea is a negative reflection on the reasoning
abilities that are so dear to them, and is therefore ego-bruising.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ENTPs and ENFPs do have a lot in common -- I believe it's called
"wackiness" ;-). Theirs is the personal type, ours tends to be intellectual. We
do that for fun. When we're serious we can be pragmatic, and so can ENFPs.
I've always suspected that this might be harder for INTPs; the structures and
theories inside my head are sometimes so intricate that the sequential nature
of human language causes me to lose so much detail in expressing them, so much
so that I am *misunderstood*. In an argument situation, I need to struggle with
(a) I am not understood,
(b) I am understood but not agreed with - why not??
(c) I could be wrong. (erg!)
~~~~~~~~~~
I really admire ENFP's, although all their fluff can get annoying; they are
people maniacs. However, they are not analytical in any way shape or form
(which does not make them any less intelligent in my book, just not
logical)
~~~~~~~~~~
One of the hallmarks of an INTJ approach to life is the utter certainty that
there IS no one correct view of ANYTHING. Including THAT view.
~~~~~~~~~~
Like all dominant Intuitives, once the validity of a perspective is accepted,
the INTJ is likely to lose interest in it and even set about deconstructing it.
The INTJ is concerned with objects fitting into place, and will channel all his
imagination into coming up with a solution that is viable and correct. So, to
an INTJ, a correct thinking is one which produces a system in which everything
works and works correctly.
~~~~~~~~~~
An INTP is rather more concerned with a correct and logically watertight
explanation for why things occur, and how it all works. An INTP's correct
thinking involves coming up with a general theory to explain why things work
the way they do - drawing threads between events, generating theories and
principles, one which, ideally, works in all possible cases within a given
domain.
~~~~~~~~~~
INFJ's and ENFJ's often have unconventional ideas and convictions. They're the
idealists who want to change the world to correct what they perceive as ethical
wrongs.
~~~~~~~~~~
I would say that Fe motivates one to seek harmony in relations between people.
The combination of Fe and Si motivates one to harmonize the relations between
people in the realm of customs, traditions and rules.
~~~~~~~~~~
For an ESFJ, an INTP may seem like a big child completely helpless in practical
matters, a perfect justification for what the ESFJ naturally does: take care of
physical needs and nurture. For an ENFJ, an INTP may seem like someone out of
touch with his/her emotional side, needing for help from someone to bring that
out.
~~~~~~~~~~~
She's one of the ones that will discuss everything to death. A definite P
thing!
~~~~~~~~~~~
If you're like every other ENTP I've met, you're going to put off that homework
until the last minute anyway.
~~~~~~~~~~~
As one of my INTP friends puts it, "think of how you can add something to what
they said, rather than attacking and contradicting what they said.
The possibility that "I could be wrong" stays with an INTP for life.
~~~~~~~~~~~
I've come into contact with a lot of dominant intuitives and ordinarily I don't
concern myself too much with deconstructing their views because I know to do so
would be almost rude. They're simply indulging their N and departing from
reality is part of the pleasure of that experience. They don't really *expect*
to be taken perfectly seriously because the views they formulate are merely
speculations, idea voyages, whose purpose isn't necessarily to depict reality
but instead to give N free play. They don't even believe them very much
themselves, only until some newer idea supplants them.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps this further illustrates the J/P difference; an INTJ sees a specific
problem as an isolated box, that operates in a specified reality or domain.
But an INTP is intent on seeing the blind men and the Elephant as a part of a
Big Problem that exists in Reality (a One Reality View);isolated solutions do
not count. INTJs seem to live with the notion that it is "all arbitrary" anyway,
and are happy to skip from one reality to the next with each problem; INTPs are
driven by the need to construct a model of Reality that is certain, a model
which is constantly under construction - each new problem, with its solution
further refines this model.
~~~~~~~~~~
What happens when ENTP's get together? I find the same sort of stuff that goes
on in our minds.. And endless array of topics, often quickly moving from one to
the next, a constant development of new ideas,long and enlightening
discussions/arguments. A man convinced against his will, is of the same
opinion still.
It is apparent to me, that what constitutes a convincing argument, differs from
type to type. This does make debate between different types quite difficult.
To have successful discussions/debates with someone of a different type,we
would each need to adjust our style (assuming we know what works for that
particular type). This would be very difficult, if not impossible, because it
would mean moving outside of our own intellectual / emotional comfort zone, to
something which we don't identify with / fully understand, and/or accept as a
valid (for us) way of looking at things.
~~~~~~~~~
It's typical of ENTP's to create huge numbers of associations that will never
be really integrated into logical wholes.
~~~~~~~~~~
My secretary, an ISTJ (Si not Fe), is not compelled by feeling concerns that
appear to some as the "moral high ground," but is diligent about birthdays,
school, church and family responsibilities. In contrast, my former ENFJ
supervisor (Fe not Si), cared little for "by the book" rules, regulations and
cultural norms, but was constantly adjuring us not to offend anyone, along with
other behaviors-in-service- of-relationship.
Any relationship where the middle two letters are the same and the first and
last are opposite is called "mirror," which is one of the most compatible,
according to the infosocial model, although the "ideal" is where all letters
are opposite except for the last. For example ENTP-ISFP. This is called
duality. For some reason, a ENTP-ISFJ would, on the other hand, be one of the
worst, called "conflict."
~~~~~~~~~~
When is a process unconscious, what does that mean? It makes sense to define
the unconscious in terms of attention. When a process is unconscious, we're
not paying attention to it. For instance, we don't consciously pay attention to
how we maintain balance when riding a bicycle, because that has become
automatic. Neither are we consciously aware of how we organize our visual
perceptions because we learned that early in our childhood. That has become
automatic, too. We can consciously attend only a few things at a time, so most
of what goes on in our minds is out of the scope of our attention.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
NT people are extremely hard to talk out of our ideations, including the
negative ones, because our ideas are our reality.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you ever decide to get counseling, choose your counselor carefully. There
are many working as psychologists and psychotherapists with a conscious
preference for an NF type of cognition, but who are actually SJs to the bone.
Psychology is the kind of field bound by countless rules. Many who practice it
just mindlessly follow authorities' writings with no living insight into the
mind. You need to find someone who is your intellectual equal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Caesar was an excellent example of an extreme ENTJ. If an extreme ENTJ
could,s/he would reorganize everything.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I had my memory tested with a set of tests containing questions where it was
asked to memorize arbitrary sensory patterns, sequences of numbers, pairs of
words etc. The result was considerably poorer than the average result in every
section.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is what it means to be an extreme N. There is nothing wrong with my
intelligence or memory for ideas that make logical sense, but memorizing
arbitrary data has always been painful for me. Neither have I ever bothered to
develop memorization strategies for such information because I have deemed it
pointless. But probably developing some Si would not be a bad idea at all.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The S perception of reality is much richer in the details. Awareness of and
consequently memory for details is crucially important in many types of work.
I would hate to be defended in court by a lawyer with to working knowledge of
the law and previous cases relevant to the present one in his/her memory. Nor
would I like an extreme N incapable of attending to details tinker with by
brain.
To read more about the different attributes of personalities see
http://www.centacs.com/quik-pt1.htm
