Most people live their whole lives without meeting their idols. Let's say your room is filled with Michael Jordan posters. Forget it. Barring a blind-luck encounter, you're never getting close. Okay, say Henry Winkler is your bag. Yeah, the guy who played Fonzie. A minor celebrity. Imagine the army of publicists, managers, and red-tape minions you'd have to battle through just to get a minute of his time.
But I'm lucky. My heroes tend to be musicians, and not even the megastar, Clapton-types. They're unassuming fellows, an awful lot like you and I, only considerably more talented, and I've managed to at least slap hands and exchange pleasantries with more than a few of them. They may not be platinum-sellers, but that doesn't lessen the thrill.
So imagine the feeling I had on the Tuesday morning when I knew Robert Pollard was at his house, having his coffee, expecting my call. This is one of the most prolific, consistent, and imaginative songwriters of the rock era we're talking about here, someone whose music I've constantly enjoyed, in almost every conceivable context, for years. I was a little nervous.
But Bob lived up to his reputation as a friendly, talkative guy and put me at ease immediately. Over the course of our hour conversation, his gruff, good-natured humor came to the fore, and his observations on a variety of topics revealed him to be a savvy, forthright individual who treasures the creative freedom of underground rock, but isn't afraid to admit that he'd like to see his music reach a little larger audience. (And isn't ashamed to sing into the telephone.) Talking to Bob was a blast and a learning experience, and I can't wait to do it again.
Many thanks to Bob, and to Matt Davis and all who helped make this interview happen. Photo courtesy of Thadd Day.
Lane Hewitt: I just wanted to thank you for doing the interview; it's really an honor to talk to you. I've been a big fan for a long time. Thanks so much.
Robert Pollard: Oh, man, my pleasure, thanks. Hey, just a second, I want to get my coffee.
LH: Sure.
RP: All right, sorry about that.
LH: No problem. Yeah, I've got a bunch of questions here, so I guess I'll just fire them at you.
RP: OK.
LH: The first one is - We're in Bloomington, Indiana --
RP: Oh, is that right? I thought you were from Texas for some reason.
LH: No - we're in Bloomington, IN --
RP: That's pretty close.
LH: Yeah, we pretty much try to get out and see you guys whenever you're in Cincinnati or Louisville or Indy; we missed the last Dayton show unfortunately because we both had to work. How did that show go?
RP: It was all right. I mean, it was a good show and everything but just, like, Dayton sucks, man. (laughs)
LH: (laughs) Really? What's going on there right now? Are there any new bands happening?
RP: There's some good bands and shit, but it's really frustrating for bands I think. I think most of them are content just to play in these small clubs before their friends and shit. It's like this small clique of people in bands who come to watch each other play, but other than that, there's really no support or promotion from the bigger clubs, the radio, the paper, that kind of thing. It kind of sucks. But there are some good bands like ... actually, all the guys in my band have bands on the side. Nate's in a band called Rob The Pank, but they're doing really well actually; they've been doing some touring and getting some pretty good responses. They go out on the East Coast and places like that.
LH: I like Doug's (Gillard - guitarist) solo EP a lot.
RP: Yeah, I do too. I like that. I just got that about a month ago. It's really good. So he's got his thing going on. He's the only one in the band who doesn't live in town.
LH: He's still in Cleveland, then?
RP: Yeah. And Jim's (MacPherson - drummer) doing his thing with another band called Real Lulu.
LH: Yeah, they've actually played Bloomington a couple of times. I really like them. And we saw them open up for you at the Vogue.
RP: Yeah, they did ... who else? Greg. Greg Demos is doing his lawyer thing.
LH: I'm glad to see he's still in the band, because when we saw you at the Southgate House, we thought he was leaving.
RP: He will be leaving eventually, but things got pushed back as far as when the record's going to come out, the Guided by Voices record. He had a little bit more time. So we're just going to do shows up to a point, maybe a month or two before we start touring, then I'll have to start looking for another bass player.
LH: Oh, man ...
RP: Yeah, that sucks. I've tried to offer him everything, but he's been dickteasing me for 6 years. (Both laugh)
LH: Oh well, I guess you go through that much schooling, you wanna ...
RP: Yeah, I've offered him the job before ... he'd gone through the schooling but he hadn't taken on a job yet, he hadn't established any relationships with anyone. He could have taken a chance in the beginning. I think he's made as much money as he can as a lawyer because he's not a partner yet, and you don't start making the big bucks till you become a partner. But he's making good money - he's making more money than I could probably afford to offer him right now. But, you know, he always wanted to be a rocker, so I understand that, you know, that once he got his chance, he didn't jump on it. He'll probably read this and get all pissed at me. (Both laugh) I don't care - fuck him! (Laughing) Put I said "Fuck him"! (Both laugh)
LH: Do you remember playing Bloomington on the Alien Lanes tour?
RP: Yeah, yeah, I remember that ... Ummmm, John Strohm's band (the now-defunct Velo-Deluxe) opened ...
LH: Yeah!
RP: That was a good show.
LH: Yeah, it's turned into one of those shows that everyone says they were at, and I don't know if anyone really was, because I heard - now, I was too young to get in at the time, and believe me I was pissed, but - apparently people were lined up outside and they turned a bunch of people away. Do you remember anything like that?
RP: Yeah, and I remember trying to get us to get them in. Were you one of them?
LH: No, no, I didn't even try and show.
RP: Yeah, trying to get underage people into the show.
LH: Cool! So, how's your family doing? Are your kids, are they college age now?
RP: Well, my son's a senior, and he's getting ready to graduate, and my daughter's an 8th grader. They're doing good. My son's going to be valedictorian.
LH: Great!
RP: He's doing really well. He's got a scholarship, actually to Wright State. He wants to go to UD, but they offered him a partial scholarship; it's real expensive, it's a private school. I'm trying to get him to go where it doesn't cost me any money. (Both laugh)
LH: Is he still playing ball?
RP: Well, their season's finished now.
LH: Oh, right, yeah. So, I read somewhere that your daughter might take after you in the musical persuasion.
RP: She's got a good voice and everything; I think she's got some talent, but I don't think she cares. I mean, she listens to Whitney Houston and that kind of stuff.
LH: How about your brother Jimmy? How's he doing?
RP: He's doing good. He's still working at GM. He's still hanging around with us on Wednesdays and Sundays, getting drunk, you know?
LH: Great.
RP: And when I go into the studio, he goes in and helps me out. He's got a pretty good knack, coming up with amplifier sounds...
LH: Did he help you out with Kid Marine?
RP: Yeah. He actually, every time I do something except for this new Guided by Voices record because we did it in New York, he actually goes in with me all the time. I kind of need him there. He's kinda like my tech.
LH: Kid Marine is billed as "#1 in the Fading Captain Series". I wondered if you could talk about that a little bit.
RP: A lot of people think it's a subtitle, like it's Kid Marine (#1 In The Fading Captain Series), which I think is kind of cool. If we don't do any more in the Fading Captain Series, then it can just be a subtitle. The thing is, the original intention was to ... because I had all this time off between records, and I was getting tired of sitting around ... I talked to my manager and some other people on labels and things like ... we're in between labels right now, so we're not sure who we're going to be with, but I talked to people and said "On this next contract, I need to get where I can do what I want at all times; I can't have my hands tied and say, `You can't do anything else, you have to sit and wait for the next record to come out'". Everybody agreed, so we came up with this plan - me and Matt Davis and Todd Robinson - you know Todd, don't you? Works at Luna in Indianapolis.
LH: Yeah, I've met him a couple times when I go up there and shop.
RP: So we said that anytime I come up with something, we'll just put it out on my ... We started my own label, basically. It was gonna be on Rockathon, but I didn't want to interfere with the schedule of releases, because we've got quite a few things coming out on Rockathon, so I said, "Look, I'll just have my own label and let Matt Davis handle it." He went in with Todd Robinson because Todd, he knows all the people in the business and kind of has the distribution angle. So we said we'd do this Fading Captain Series thing, so Kid Marine's #1, and if I do another one, it'll be #2 - and if I don't, like I said, it'll just be a subtitle. Actually, it's a label, so the Fading Captain Series is my label, my own personal label for anything I want to do, so that was #1. Right now, I'm working on a six-song EP - I was gonna do another album. I had another Robert Pollard album together, but I think it's gonna be too close on the heels of Kid Marine and too close to the upcoming Guided by Voices record, so I don't think I'm gonna do that. But I've got six really good songs that I might release under a pseudonym or something. The band's called Lexo and the Leapers.
LH: Yeah, I read about that.
RP: Thinking about getting a couple of guys together and actually practicing, and then going in and doing this EP. I've got the cover for it, and I've got the songs, so I might do that. And I'm also playing around with doing a book of poetry, which is how Kid Marine got started to begin with - I was working on this book of poetry, and then took my best poems and put music to them, and it became Kid Marine. But I still wanna do a book of poetry, but my poems ... they're pretty fuckin' wild. Pretty far out. But I don't care - it's like ... I don't care if it's kinda Dr. Seuss-like or something - who cares? It doesn't have to be something that everyone thinks is really serious or reaching, you know? I guess it could kinda be like my lyrics, you know? I think I could sell a thousand, maybe?
LH: Yeah, yeah.
RP: Hey, gotta make money, man. It's been a while since I've actually made - I mean, I've made money here and there, but it's been a while - hell, it's been two years since the last Guided by Voices record, so I've gotta do some side projects.
LH: What are your favorite tracks on Kid Marine?
RP: "Submarine Teams" comes across well live, so does "The Big Make-Over". The ones we're doing live are "Submarine Teams", "The Big Make-Over", "Men Who Create Fright", "Far-Out Crops" - I like that one. We're doing "Strictly Comedy", "Living Upside Down" and "Town Of Mirrors". I think they're all different and all cool - I like "Island Crimes" a lot, too.
LH: Yeah, my favorite is probably "Strictly Comedy". I really like that song - that sounds kinda Wire-influenced to me.
RP: There's always some Wire influence in my stuff - sometimes, it's not quite so obvious, but I think it's a little more obvious on this record than on some of my other poppier records. This album's a little more experimental and darker, I think.
LH: Yeah, we almost thought it was a little bit lighter after Waved Out - Waved Out seems to be the darkest -
RP: Waved Out's really dark.
LH: - yeah, and then this one has a little bit cleaner sound.
RP: I think my solo albums are a little bit darker than the Guided by Voices records. Guided by Voices stuff has to be a little more upbeat, a little brighter.
LH: Do you prefer doing the solo records to GbV?
RP: I actually do prefer doing the solo records because there aren't any strings attached - no touring or promotional obligations, so I do like that better. But it's kinda nice that I get to do it - cause I like big rock too, you know, and I'm glad to still have that side too, now that the labels are interested in marketing us in the big rock market, making songs that are marketable, that you can play on the radio, so I like that side too. But I think it's nice that I'm also being allowed to do this more personal, experimental side with my solo stuff.
LH: Talk about the new GbV record.
RP: It's like just a big power-pop-rock, there's a lot of pop songs, a lot of anthems and there are ballads, but it just sounds really good. It's produced by Ric Ocasek. He slowed us down and made us become more patient. One thing that I like about my solo stuff and earlier Guided by Voices records is that we did them quickly, and you can hear the mistakes in there, so there's not a whole lot of pussyfooting going on. Whereas this new record - I don't know, it may turn some people off, but I think it'll open the doors for more fans. I think it'll enable it to get out to more people. That kinda scares you a little bit as an artist, but every artist wants everybody to check out their stuff. I'm not worried about it - it's still songs, still the same kind of songs. But (this record) sounds a lot better because we took our time and Ric made us slow down - he made us go through pre-production, and he made us - I'd have to do the vocals 9 or 10 times, and we'd take the best line from each one. He had a word for that, it was called ... umm ... I forget. But I'd have to sing a song, and he'd find the best line from each song, so the vocals are really good, they're really even, it's all on-key and everything, and everything's tight. And Doug's guitar playing is amazing. And everybody did really well, because we slowed down and took our time. The thing with Guided by Voices is a lot of people go, "Well, you guys, you've got great songs, and we'd really like to hear these on the radio and haven't been able to because they weren't recorded quite radio-friendly." Now I think they are.
LH: So, is that your goal for it, to try and get some songs on commercial radio or college radio?
RP: Yeah. Especially right now ... I think music is really bad right now, the stuff you hear on mainstream radio, and there's gotta be something to change that, and I wouldn't mind being a part of that, so you'd start to hear some good songs on the radio again. Like, at one point, I forget who said this, but I read recently that in the ‘60s and ‘70s, that the bands who were the most popular were the most talented bands.
LH: Definitely - I think so too ...
RP: I'd like to see that happen again. And it's like - Guided by Voices has been around for so long, and it's like "What do you do now?", cause we've done the whole lo-fi thing - and I write fairly straightforward pop-rock songs, so I think it's logical that we, especially spending this kind of money on it and working with someone like Ric Ocasek, that we'd go for a label that would push it to get played on the radio. And that's the main thing for me, radio - I'm not real concerned with MTV and videos and all that kind of stuff - I think that if we do have something that starts to get major radio play, I'm sure that we'll have to start to deal with the video part of it too. But yeah - not to sound like some kind of a sell-out - because the songs are the same kind of songs that I always write.
LH: I was thinking it'd be funny if you guys had some sort of big hit and ended up on all of these ‘90s compilations that people would listen to and say, "There's that one-hit wonder, Guided by Voices - I wonder if they ever did any other records ..."
RP: Exactly. We've got five thousand songs and we'd be a one-hit wonder.
LH: So, do you still wanna try and get it on a major label, then?
RP: Well ... (pause) ... not necessarily. It's probably going to have to be - and I don't wanna say that we're not going to be with Matador; that decision hasn't been made because ... we could still be with Matador; I don't know if it's necessarily a major label, it's more that whatever label we're on could do with it. We have a song in particular called "Hold On Hope" that everyone thinks is a big hit. They think it's a definite big hit. We're kind of leaning toward whatever label is going to be dedicated to making that a hit. There's a couple of labels that we've talked to - one in particular that says they will make that a hit, and they'll take as long as it takes.
LH: I have to ask - did "Liquid Indian" make the cut?
RP: Oh, yeah!
LH: Oh, man! I've been singing that song ever since the Southgate House. I just can't get that out of my mind. That's great - I like that song a lot.
RP: Thanks, man.
LH: I think "Teenage FBI" - I think hit potential for that is ...
RP: Well, "Hold On Hope" is the first choice, and a couple of labels have told us, "It's all about `Hold On Hope'". That's their big thing. But ... I think "Teenage FBI" could be a hit. And if "Hold On Hope" is, I think "Teenage FBI" should be second. Even my son and his friends think that's the one. That's why I have managers, that's why we deal with labels who have promotional people and radio people and all that stuff because they know more about the charts and graphs than I do. So I don't know, they can take whatever, you know? But "Hold On Hope", I can understand that because it's a nice, big lush arrangement - it's a pretty song. So I wouldn't mind, just as long as, like, ... I don't know, for some reason, I think the kids would like "Teenage FBI" better, but like I said, I don't know. It's up to them. Whatever they wanna push.
LH: On tour, we really liked the last time when you pulled out "Dog's Out" and "Some Drilling Implied" and "Liar's Tale" and songs like that. Do you have any plans to go back and get some songs that maybe you haven't played in a long time or not ever?
RP: It's getting difficult because with each record, we've got new songs to play. It gets tougher - it's getting narrowed down to where we can play maybe two songs from each album. But every once in a while, somebody in the band or I will say, "Let's try this one - that's a cool song," and we'll do it. You never know. It depends on how we feel and how much time we have to practice. We hardly ever practice. It's fuckin' ridiculous. I mean, we played three weeks ago, we played in ... where was that ... oh, San Francisco.
LH: Oh, the Noise Pop thing?
RP: Yeah, we played Noise Pop, and I asked everybody, "Do you guys wanna practice before this thing?" And Greg said, "We're all right." It'd better be all right, because he's the one I worry about. I mean, he's amazing, but he's busy, he's a busy man ... but before the San Francisco show, we just practiced in the motel room, like on the bed.
LH: Wow. That's hard to imagine.
RP: Yeah. Well, we fuck up a little bit in shows. We're not the tightest band in the world. We could be - we're a really good band, we could be the tightest band in the world, but we're just not because we don't practice, so ... it doesn't bother me that much because I don't mind a little fuck-up here and there.
LH: I think next to Crying My Knife Away (the pathetically drunken GbV live bootleg), everything sounds tight.
RP: No shit, I know. I don't mind a little looseness on stage, a little drunkenness. As long as the energy's there, I don't mind a few mistakes.
LH: Yeah ... I would have to say that I would love to hear "Hardcore UFOs" live. That's always been one of my favorite GbV songs.
RP: Yeah, and "Do The Earth" too.
LH: Yeah! That *would* be a good one. Do you still have the famous suitcase-full-of-tapes project going?
RP: Yeah, Matt Davis and another friend of mine, Kevin, for a while we were going through it, and we were putting them to CD, and we went through, maybe one-tenth of the case, and we had maybe 150 unreleased songs already. But most of them are terrible, most of them suck. There were a few that weren't too bad, that I'd forgotten about. But yeah, I still have that, we're still trying to organize it, catalog it. Then we're thinking about putting out maybe a 10-CD set called Suitcase. I mean, not really putting it out, but just making 100 copies and giving them to people - really fucking rare, you know.
LH: Yeah. People always hint around that maybe you've written more songs than anybody else in rock. Do you believe that, and is this something you'd like to be recognized for?
RP: Well, I think I probably have written more songs than anybody else in rock, and for one reason, I'm a lot older than most people in rock except for hangers-on like The Stones and shit like that. But I'm sure I've written more songs than even Mick Jagger ... Keith Richards, I'm sure. They just ... I mean, that's all I do, you know? I write songs all the time. I don't know if that's good or bad. I think it's good, because it's kind of my philosophy to do a lot of stuff, then you've got more to choose from. If you write 100 songs and you narrow it down to 20, those 20 songs should be pretty good, as opposed to if you labor over 10 songs for three months and then you find out you don't like them, then you're in trouble, you know? So I'm kinda glad that I can do that.
LH: Do you remember the first song you ever wrote?
RP: Well, one of the first songs I ever wrote was "Weed King", but it was called "Lori Green" or something like that - I used to have different lyrics. I can still go back into the catalog and find songs that I wrote when I was a little kid, and if I thought it was a good melody, I'd try to work with it, kind of update it. But that was one of the first ones. I wrote a song called "Eggs Make Me Sick". I wrote a song called "Corn Country" - it was pretty funny. Have you heard of "Corn Country"?
LH: I remember you mentioning that in "Watch Me Jumpstart" (a GbV documentary).
RP: I was in New York, man, and these kids asked me - we were in a bar, and all these kids at the show came to the bar and asked me to sing "Corn Country", and I sang it, so they just kept asking me to sing it. Pretty soon, they learned it, so we just kept singing "Corn Country". It was a horrible song.
LH: Could you sing a bar now, for the archives?
RP: It's ridiculous, but it's pretty funny. (singing) "This is corn country, yeah/Cor-hor-hor-orn country, yeah/I wanna go back to the place I was born/I wanna go back to the place I love/I wanna go back to the place I know/I wanna go back to the ... country of corn." (pauses) That's it, man ... but we were singing it in this bar, and the kids just loved it. But that's one of the first ones I wrote. But I think it's funny, because it's a pretty corny country we live in.
LH: (laughing) The Midwest ...
RP: The Midwest is a pretty corny place.
LH: Yeah, I grew up practically in a cornfield myself.
RP: You grew up in corn country.
LH: I'm a farmer's son, so yeah, I can relate to "Corn Country" all the way.
RP: So, yeah, those two, and "Lori Green" and a few things that have resurfaced, but when I first started writing songs as a kid, I'd just write them a capella, just into a tape player; I'd just sing them as I'd make them up. I did a lot of them that way. Then eventually I learned how to play guitar. I got a guitar for graduation from high school, and I learned to play around then, so then I could actually accompany myself on guitar.
LH: You mentioned that you had a lot of stuff coming out on Rockathon - is it you and Pete, that label? Pete Jamison (GbV manager)?
RP: Yeah, me, Pete Jamison, Matt Davis, and another guy who works there, Kevin Poindexter - we have four people working there.
LH: So are you guys scouting out bands that you'd like to try and put out their record?
RP: Yeah, we have some releases coming up - so far, we've only put out records by 84 Nash and a band called Hershel Savage & The American Flag.
LH: Yeah, I've got Hershel Savage & The American Flag. I absolutely love that record. It's awesome.
RP: But I don't think we're going to work with them anymore.
LH: No kidding? Why not?
RP: I don't think that they're very happy with the work that we're doing for them. We like them, but obviously it's just me, Pete and Matt -
LH: Well, if it weren't for you, if it weren't for Guided by Voices, I don't think anybody would have ever heard of them.
RP: If it weren't for Guided by Voices, there wouldn't be them, because they sound like Guided by Voices. That's the thing - I think they've kind of lost perspective as to what we are.
LH: The thing that struck me about them is that I could tell the influence, but it seemed they still had their own thing going.
RP: Yeah, they're more bubblegum. They're brighter and happier. And I think they're really great. But they have higher expectations of what we can do as a label, so we've kind of told them, "Well, if you have that, then you need to go and look for a bigger label who can help you out" - and I think they can, and I think they will, and I wish them the best of luck. I think that's a great record. But I don't think that there's much that we can do. We've tried to do the best we can - we sent it out to magazines, tried to put some ads in some magazines, you know, we sent it to Japan and different places; it did really well in Japan. And he's helped us out - this guy named Evan Weisblott, he's the singer for them. We can't do much more for them, "Go ahead and see what you can do elsewhere." I think that's finished, with them. But we just put out a new 84 Nash record, and that's good, and we have a new album by a band from Dayton called The Tasties. They just finished, and that'll be out in maybe a month or so. And that's really good, it's kind of straightforward rock, kind of punk a little bit, but the songs are really good. And then after that is Thomas Jefferson Slave Apartments' new album. So things are going pretty well for us right now. I feel bad, though - I would really like to have continued to work with Hershel Savage & The American Flag. But what we're about is helping out friends - if you have a record and we think it's good, then we'll try to help you put it out, but that's basically all we can do - put it out and send it to a few people. We can't do much more than that. If you have more expectations than that, then we're not the label for you.
LH: How's Mitch Mitchell doing these days?
RP: He's doing all right. He was at our last show in Dayton, and got up on stage with us and did a couple of songs. But he's doing his Terrifying Experience thing, and I think they just put an album out not too long ago. So he's keeping himself busy, I think.
Click here for Part II of Lane's interview with Robert Pollard.