The Spider-Man Crawlspace podcast is sponsored by mailordercomics.com. They're an online leader in comic book subscriptions and in these tough times with everyone pinching pennies, mailorder will save you quite a bit off the cover price of new comics. Their discounts range from 38 up to 75% off the cover price of new books. And a special this month is the last issue of Amazing Spider-Girl #30. The cover price is $3.99; mailorder has it for $2.40, which is 38% off the cover price. So check them out at mailordercomics.com and tell them the crawlspace sent you.

Welcome back web heads to our first show of 2009. We're starting off with a bang. This show, we're gonna honor one of my all-time favorite artists, Sal Buscema.

Sal, thanks so much for joining us today.

Oh well, thanks so much for having me. I’m truly honored and I mean that sincerely.

And Sal's asked a couple of his friends to come along for the ride. We have writer...

Well, I don't know about friends but eh. (Laughter)

We have (writer) Tom DeFalco. Welcome Tom.

Welcome. Thank you for inviting me.

No problem. And I think Sal calls you a friend. Is he a friend Sal? (Laughter)

Huh...I'll have to think about that.

Yeah, think...think a lot about that.

Your voice sounds muffled. (Laughter)

And another "quote on quote" friend is Ron Frenz. Welcome Ron.

Thanks Brad. It's wonderful to be here. Huh. This is. Sal was one of my favorites too. It's a pleasure to be here. It's an honor to be here. And, huh, it's great to be on with you again. So...

He said that just the way I told him to. (Laughter)

He's got the cue cards, doesn't he? (Laughter)

Well, Sal, I talked to you a couple of weeks ago on the phone and you said, this is gonna be similar to "This is your life". We're gonna talk to some...

(interrupts) "Yeah right..." (Laughter)

...more friends on the line, talking about your work, your 40 years of work at Marvel Comics. Before we go to the phone line, talk a little bit about those 40 years. Does it seem like it flew by?

Huh...you know, honestly Brad, that's exactly the way it seems to me. I, just, look back and I wonder where the time has gone. It's kind of the same thing, hmm, the same feeling that I get about my family. I have three grown sons who are married and have families of their own. And my wife and I sit around and say: "My gosh, where has the time gone?" Huh, it's a strange phenomenon, but it's very true.

Right. Now talk a bit about how you got your work at Marvel. Was it 1968? Was that the year?

It was coercion. (Laughter) I bought (inaudible) Stan. No. Let me see. When did I do my first job? Did you say 68?

I think that matches up to the first...

Yeah. Yeah 68 is correct. That would be right…the math didn't work out. (Laughter) I sent some samples to...at first, I bugged Sol Brodsky, huh, for inking work. And, then I made the mistake of doing some pencils. It was a half-dozen pages I think. I made up a little story about the Incredible Hulk, who was a fascinating character, always has been my favorite character, and, huh, sent them up to Stan. And, as they say, the rest of history. He...for some unknown reason, he decided to hire me and give me work. And I haven't stopped since.

Now, your brother John. I mean. He was on the Avengers title. Was your first gig inking your brother's stuff? Is that how it started?

No. Actually, my first gig with Marvel was inking an obscure western character called, I believe, Gunhawk.

Wow...

I can't. Gosh, I apologize for this. I can't remember who the artist was. It was a ten-pager. And Westerns were kind of...I don't know how popular they were back then…but Marvel was producing a few of them. And Sol called me up, Sol Brodsky, and asked me if I would do this. They were kind of in a hurry for it. And I was obviously anxious to prove myself. I was thrilled to get the first job. And, huh, you know, I did it, I think, in pretty good time. He seemed to be pleased with it, with what I did, and this was the beginning for me. I kind of wanted to stick with inking. But once Stan saw my pencils, he wanted me to do some penciling, so, you don't say "No" to Stan Lee. So whatever he said, I went along with it.

For us spider-fans, your record of 100 issues straight on Spectacular Spider-Man. I mean that's not been topped.

Did I do that many? Was it a 100?

You did that many. There was a 100!

Are you kidding? Man, that's what you called staying power huh! (Laughter)

You said the Hulk is your first favorite. Is Spider-Man a close two?

Huh, yeah, I guess I would say that. I have an affection for the character. There is a lot about the book that I don't care for. And it's because the setting is in the city and I hate drawing backgrounds and buildings. You know, Ron (Frenz) is a master at this. He, just, he amazes me with his backgrounds and the energy that he pours into each panels. I try to just sloff off on the backgrounds and I just wanted to draw people. Unfortunately, when you doing a Spider-Man book, you have to draw backgrounds and most of it is in the city. Hmm, I wasn't too happy with that aspect of it. But, as far as the character is concerned, he's just a delightful character.

Now Ron, we've talked about this on the previous show that Sal's really been an inspiration for you. Talk a bit about that.

Tell him he's lying. (Laughter)

No. No. No. No. I mean he was always one of my favorites when I was growing up. I love the life of his stuff, the action of his stuff, the movement of his stuff. But, as I've gotten older and became a professional myself, what Sal has really been an inspiration specifically about is that I don't know of anybody who has been in the industry, put in the time that he has, put in the amount of work that he has, and is always willing - DeFalco and I were just talking about this earlier - is always willing to experiment, always willing to try new things. If an editor suggests something, or if he's inked by somebody in particular, you know, he picked up things from Walt Simonson on Thor, he picked up things from Bill Sienkiewicz when Sienkiewicz inked that stuff. He experimented. He tried new things. He, you know, his in his ink style, in his layout style. And, you know, usually, you find people that, when they're putting in their time or when they've done the amount of work that Sal has. They get kind of set in their ways. They get unwilling to experiment or be objective about their own work, or to evolve. And Sal has been a huge influence on me in that never resting on your laurels, never getting so sure that you are doing it the "right way" that it’s not worth experimenting and trying something new. You know, Sal, in the conversations that I've been fortunate enough to have with him, he's an "evolve or die" kind of guy. And I’ve always believed that and he's been a wonderful example of that and a wonderful influence that way, sure.

Tom, talk about you working with Sal. When did you first start working with him?

I actually first started working with Sal when I was an editor. I was, hmm, I forget what title I needed. I was the editor of Spider-Man. And, hmm, I needed some issues drawn. And I was, huh, you know, looking for...

Was it Amazing Tom?

No. I don't think it was Amazing. Was it Amazing? Was it...you know, I don't even remember which title it was. It was either Amazing...

(Interrupts) No, I believe it was Spectacular when we first started working together. I may be wrong about this but I thought you were editor-in-chief at the time. We kind of had to beat you over the head to write a book, because of, because of your workload, but we finally talked you into it. And, huh, and I say we, it was several guys. We were having a Spider-Man meeting, if you remember, in New York with all the Spider-Man artists, writers and editors. Danny Fingeroth, I believe, was doing all of the, editing the Spider-Man books. I don't mean to correct you but that's my recollection of when we first started working together.

Well that's when we first started working as a writer and artist. When I was the editor of Spider-Man, hmm, at one point, hmm, I needed an artist for one of the books, I don't remember which one it was.

Oh okay, okay, I relent then. I’m sorry. You're talking about something I have no recollection of, because I have a terrible memory. I defer to you my friend.

And then, somebody said to me: "Why don't you call Sal Buscema". And I said: "Sal Buscema"?

(Jokingly) What? Are you serious? You're out of mind? (Laughter)

I said: "You think I can actually get Sal to do this?" Anyways, I called you up and I said to you, hmm, you know, I, huh, I introduced himself and I said: "Man, I'd love if you could pencil this book and this and that". And what you said to me is: “All right, I'll do it but I want you to understand, you know, I'm not sure what my reputation is up at Marvel, but I'm really not a prima Donna and I'm not..."

(Interrupts) I said that to you? (Laughter)

You said this to me.

Oh my gosh. (Laughter)

"I'm not a prima Donna and I make my deadlines and all this other stuff. So I don't know what you've heard". And , I said to you: "I heard that you are not prima Donna and that you make all your deadlines, so I don't know what you're talking about".

This is fantastic. I'm having a good time already. (Laughter)

That's great Tom. Honestly, I really don't remember that. But boy, it sounds like something you would say.

Well, I think what happened is that around that time, you were having, you know, arguments with a certain writer and I don't want to mention his name.

Yeah, yeah, (inaudible) I recall a period of time and it was difficult and the next thing I know is I’m being tagged with the reputation of being difficult to work with, that I was a prima Donna. And that just floored me. Up to that point, I always got along with everybody. I'm really a sweetheart. All you have to do is ask my wife and she'll tell you.

Oh, that's not what she actually says though. (Laughter)

We have on the line...(inaudible)

I knew this was gonna turn out into a "Get Sal" day.

This is your life, it's a good Sal recollection day. (Laughter)

It was strange, you kind of, you know, I think that, you know, because of you had some words with that writer, you were under the impression that, hmm, you know, people were listening to him and reacting to what he said where, in truth, you were not the only one having problems with him. And, most people said: "No, no, if there's a problem, we know who the problem is and it ain't Sal".

I think, Tom, one of the problems there, and this is probably my fault, is because I may have gotten a little complacent about my place with Marvel because, living in Virginia, I got to a point where I was doing so much work for Marvel on a regular basis that I made a mistake of not traveling to New York from time to time. I mean there were literally periods of years that went by when I didn’t go up there just to say "HI" to everybody, communicating with the editorial staff and so on and so forth. I realize now that was a mistake on my part. That may have contributed to this little incident so...

You know, Sal, really, you know, considering your personality, it was probably better that you didn't show up at the office. (Laughter)

(Laughing) These are supposed to be my friends, Brad.

Well, Sal, as we've mentioned earlier in the show, we're gonna get some celebrities on and let me try to do that right now. I'm gonna work the wonders of the internet and...

My gosh!

...get a friend of yours on the line. I'm calling him right now. Let's see if it likes that. There, I got it ringing.

Operator: Thank you for calling POW Entertainment. If you know your party's extension, you can enter it at anytime during this announcement. For Stan, press 1. For Gil, press 2...

How do I press 1 (laughter)?

Operator: For (inaudible), press 3. For Mike, press 4. For Youka, press 5. For address and fax information, press 6.

I want to talk to "Youka"!! (Laughter)

Operator: For (inaudible) mailbox or Alan Leiberman, press 7.

How can I press 1 on this thing?

Don't you have any buttons?

(Phone rings)

There you go.

Receptionist: Stan Lee's office.

Hi. Is this Mike?

This is.

Hi, it's Brad Douglas from the Spider-Man Crawlspace. How you doing?

Good.

I wonder if I could talk to Stan please.

Yes, give me a moment, one moment.

Okay, all right. Sal? We have elevator music Sal. (Laughter)

I wonder who the special guest is. (Laughter)

Yeah, Sal, if you couldn't guess it over this...

Operator: Thank you for holding, we'll be with you momentarily.

Wow...(inaudible)...radio or something.

You know, I think I lost Sal...did I?

Stan Lee giving voice. (Laughter)

Hi Stan. (Mixed with Laughter)

Who is this?

This is Brad Douglas from the (Spider-Man) Crawlspace.

Hiya Brad, how are you?

I'm doing all right. You know what, as I added you, I just lost Sal. I've got Ron Frenz and Tom DeFalco on the line though if you want to talk to them real quick.

Who you got?

I've got Tom DeFalco and Ron Frenz.

Hiya Tom!

Hey Stan, how's it going?

You're not supposed to lose Sal, I mean, my God, he's the star of the show. (Laughter)

There I'm calling him back (inaudible).

That's okay, Tom and I will keep it going 'til you find him. (Laughter)

Hello?

Sal? I lost you, I'm back though Sal.

What a shame, I was enjoying talking to Tom. (Inaudible)

Sal, I got Stan Lee on the line.

Oh my gosh, Stan, how are you?

Hey Sal, look, can you get lost again for a minute? I was talking to Tom DeFalco and you're interrupting. (Laughter)

I am really sorry about that. (Inaudible) He's just as nasty as he ever was.

Even in my nastiness, it's great to hear your voice. How the hell are you?

Oh, Stan, this is really a surprise and I am honored that you would participate in this little tête-à-tête here.

I had to say, I had to say, look Brad, I'll get back to you later, Sal is on the phone. (Laughter)

He (inaudible) gets so upset, but don't worry, I'll pacify him.

Hey Stan, I think I lost Sal at the point where we hit the elevator music to get to you.

I didn't hear elevator music. All I heard was a busy signal.

Oh, okay.

Everything just went dead. Then, I heard the busy signal then I said: "I think we've been disconnected", so I hung up and waited for you to call me back.

Whenever anybody knows...most people don't like talking to me, so whenever they know I’m on the phone, they have a little switch on their phone that gives a busy signal and gets disconnected. Fortunately, yours didn't work well.

Stan, as I...

I had a spy that told me you were gonna be here Stan so that's why I cut you off. No. I am really honored that...

(Interrupts) As well, you should be. (Laughter)

...you would take the time out of your busy schedule. I'm sorry?

Stan, as I told Sal earlier in the show, this is kind of like "This is your life". (Laughter)

Do you remember that show?

Well, I'm a little too young for that show, but I remember the reruns.

Sal wouldn't remember it 'cause...

Who was the guy who did that? Huh...Geez, I forget...

Art Linkwater?

No, no, no no, it wasn't Art Linkwater...I don't know, it was Fred somebody or...

He always kept a big book under this arm.

Talk to this guy, (Inaudible) 40 years ago, he made the mistake of giving me a job.

Yeah Stan, talk a bit about that. 40 years ago, you gave this guy a job. You gave him a chance.

And I've been paying for it ever since. That's why I had to move to the coast. Everybody got so angry. (Laughter)

Jesus. If it wasn't for Sal, I'd still be in New York, as a famous comic book writer. (Laughter)

But that's okay, I still love him. (Inaudible)

I wanted to commend you on your wonderful performances in the latest marvel movie, the Hulk. I loved the way you dropped that bottle. That was fantastic.

You think it was easy?! I wanna tell you, you have no idea how many takes I had to make of that.

Is that right?

Yeah, the director Louis, he said when you drop the bottle, I want you to go: "Wo". So I went: "Wo". He said: "No, No, not "Wo", just go "Wo". So I said: "Okay 'Wo'. He said: "No, no, just 'Wo' ". I said: Okay, "Wo". He said: "No, 'Wo' ". This goddamn word "Wo", I didn't do it (inaudible). I'm trying to stretch my "Wo" and he's trying to condense it. (Laughter)

It’s not easy being a star.

(Laughing) Oh man...

We're supposed to be talking about Sal. Sal, I gotta tell you one thing...you were one of the most valuable guys cause I don't if anybody knows this, you could draw anything. Whenever we were in a jam. Whenever we needed an artist to help us out, there was a Sal. Whatever it was, he could do it. Of course, when we weren't in a jam, we didn't want anything to do with him, cause nobody liked him, but when we needed him, there he was! (Laughter)

It was, whatever you like or not, right. (Laughter) Thank you Stan, I appreciate that. No wonder it looks like I'm a hundred and 8 instead of 62.

You think I would come to the phone for anyone else. Maybe (inaudible) for Tom DeFalco but he's probably not listening and I wasted that remark. (Laughter)

No, no, I was listening Stan. I'm so (inaudible) to hear that.

It's really great to hear your voices.

Stan, talk a bit about what made you hire Sal. He had a famous brother working for you.

That's what made me hire him! John said: "I'll quit if I you don't".

That's the truth too right? (Laughter)

I don't remember. He came up. I saw his artwork and I said: "Geez, you're better than John". But I wouldn't let John know that 'cause John lifted weights and he was a powerhouse.

Yes he was and he used to beat me up all the time too.

I liked Sal. I could be nasty to Sal. He was a puny little guy.

I have to tell you a story. Can I tell you a little story about Stan?

I'd rather you didn't but you'll do it anyway.

Stan, if you remember, I touched upon this at that wonderful roast of you in Chicago several years ago. Do you recall that?

Only you would think a roast of me would be wonderful. But go ahead.

It was fantastic. It was the first time I got to say nasty things about you...in public.

Yeah, you were storing them up for a lifetime!!

You know, when I went up to talk to Stan about, you know, getting some work from him. Stan went through his routine, I'd heard about this, he went on his routine about what he wanted on every page of every comic book. He wanted a lot of intensity, a lot of energy and so on. This man started leaping around his office. He literally jumped up on his chair, jumped up on his desk. And scared the hell out of me.

I was trying to get away from you!! (Laughter)

He scared the hell out of me! I said: "I'm working for a maniac". But this is the way he described, he was so adamant about this, this is the way he described what he wanted on every page of every book that he produced. And, I mean, it was a fantastic experience. But boy, was I glad to get the hell out of that office. I thought, I escaped with my life.

Well, the reason that I acted that way was to get you out of the goddamn office! I didn't think you'd stay as long as you did. (Laughter)

You see...

Stan, I gotta ask you. What is it about artist and families? You've got the Buscemas, you've got the Romitas, you have a brother Larry who's an artist. Talk about how it goes in the family.

There's nothing left, you just said it all. (Laughter)

It's not everybody. It's just a coincidence. Some of us have people in the family who do...look at it this way, let's say you're a guy like Sal Buscema, and you're wandering around, you're looking for a place in the world. You don't know what to do, where to go. And you realize your brother is making a living without working and just drawing pictures. So you say to yourself, man, how long has that been going on? And you decide you're gonna do it too. And that's what happens. It's such an easy way to make money. You don't need talent, you don't need brains, you just draw pictures.

It's not like being the writer! (Laughter)

You nailed it right on the head. This is what I tell people when they ask me about doing comics. I tell them I was hired many many years ago by Stan Lee and I always told them, it sure beats working. (Laughter)

Yeah right, no, it should be fun. Whatever you do, you gotta enjoy it.

Oh, you gotta love what you do, Stan. And I have to, seriously, I mean this sincerely, I thank you very much for doing what you did 40 years ago, because it has been an absolute blast, beyond anything that I could have ever imagined, this career that I've had.

How do you like that? It took the guy 40 years to thank me. (Laughter)

And now you're making me regret it.

Stan, Sal drew 104 issues of Spectacular Spider-Man, it was from 1988 to 1996, what do you think younger artists can take away from his dedication, because these days, six issues and the artist is out?

Hmm. I didn't think of that. They really leave after a few issues? I haven't been following comics that much lately.

You've been too busy making movies!

Well they hop in and hop out.

Oh, wow, I don't know that that was dedication. I think Sal was just doing it until he'd get it right. Unfortunately, it took him a while. (Laughter)

I figured, you know, as long as they didn't notice what was really going on in the books, I figured I was pulling one over on them, so I said: "hey I got another issue to do", so I am doing it.

I think I'm a little annoyed. I think that beats my record. I had done one hundred a couple more of Fantastic Four. I don't remember the exact number. It sounds like you did more than that yourself.

It looks like he beat you by two issues.

Oh my God...and I'm being nice to him!

But writing is so easy. You know, I mean, illustrating, that's the job. I mean, my Gosh.

Excuse me...

Got dead fireworks there for a minute. (Laughter)

DeFalco talked up. Tom said something.

You know, I never liked Tom DeFalco, whatever his name is.

I don't like to tell him that's the years Stan but he won't listen to me.

I'll tell you something seriously though. Writing is easy when you're working with an artist like Sal Buscema. All I had to do was to give him the idea, the jist of the plot, they would draw it up, I'd put in the copy, I would take the credit "written". It was a great working relationship.

I got you even better. I'm working with Ron Frenz. I don't even have to come up with the idea. I just tell him we have to do another issue and the artwork goes up.

Well, you were always able to top me. That's another reason I don't like you. (Laughter)

I'm glad you all dislike each other so much.

That's the beautiful thing about comics. You wouldn't realize that so much hatred exists in one field!

Wait Sal, wait until I get some real enemies on there Sal. (Laughter)

Yeah right, I can hardly wait.

Stan, before you go, 'cause I got like four other people waiting to call.

People always say that to me when they want to get rid of me! (Laughter)

Hey, I know you're in a rush but "before you go"...I can take their hints.

He's got other things to do. He's gonna go home and have a sandwich now, you know.

I feel sorry about those other people. After the fun we've had, they're gonna be an anticlimax. You know, I'm glad we were first.

Before you go, a lot of Spider-fans are asking, Stan, about the newspaper strip. Huh, it's an untold tale, he's not married...what's going on with the newspaper strip?

I wanted to...I've been following Joe Quesada. And whatever he does...he made a change with Spider-Man in the books. And I figured I’m gonna show him that I can do that too. So we changed it. But we'll go back again to the regular way after a while. I'm just having a little fun.

I've been enjoying it. I know...

(Interrupts) You're the one! (Laughter)

I wondered who!

And his mother too!

And my mother too...(Laughter)

Write a lot of letters to the editor. That's what we need. I don't care if they're complaints. Just keep writing to the newspaper about the strip. Oh my god, somebody is really reading it!!

Stan, before you go, one last comment about our Pal Sal...

Yes sir!

40 years at Marvel...closing comments to him, before we go.

He's speechless.

You mean I've got to give the closing comments. I thought you were about to.

What he meant for Marvel, for Spider-Man?

This Johnny-come-lately, he was one of the pillars of the Marvel structure, the Marvel edifice, which has graced the field of culture for lo these many decades. Without Sal, we would just have one artist less. (Laughter)

He has been absolutely wonderful. As I mentioned, he was always, and I hate to say anything nice about him because basically I don't like him, but he was really a joy to work with. He's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, a real gentlemen, and dependable as hell, and if I say anymore, people will think I'm gay! (Laughter)

But I love the guy.

I love it! And we love you too Stan. I appreciate you taking the time today.

As well you should.

Thank you so much that you would take time to do this. All I can say is "Thank You".

You're very welcome. Now, Brad, come on, you can come back in the room now.

Best of luck to you Sal.

You too Stan, take care.

And, you too Tom. Bye. Excelsior!!

Don't forget Ron!

All right, wow, I got the "Excelsior" in there guys. Did you hear that?

Oh my gosh, I'm overwhelmed Brad. Honestly, he's the last person I thought would be on this thing.

Let's add one more. Let's get another friend in here. Let's see. Hopefully, I don't have elevator music for this next one.

Yeah, you used that term friend very loosely I noticed Brad. Stan already said he didn't like me so...

Okay it's ringing.

Okay, don't disconnect me this time.

I won't, I won't - no elevator music.

Roy Thomas' answering machine picks up.

Oh, my gosh.

Ohh...boy, I'm not having any luck...hey Sal, leave a voicemail for Roy Thomas.

Hello.

Is this Roy?

Hello?

Oh, hi Roy?

You didn't think I wasn't gonna answer my phone, did you?

Roy Thomas is on the phone Sal.

Is Roy there?

Hello? Hello?

Is anybody letting you down here?

I don't know...

I've been sitting by the phone for the last hour or so here. I thought maybe you guys forgot...about me. You're big names there, you know...(Inaudible)

Stan was on just now Roy and he was hogging the whole show.

That's not a big name, that's only seven letters, you know. (Laughter)

Roy you're also on the line with Ron Frenz and Tom DeFalco.

Ohh.

Hi Roy, how you doing?

He's really thrilled right? (Laughter)

I'm excited.

Hey guys, I gotta tell you. I wish I had said this before but my wife Joan asked me to say "Hi" to all of you. She appreciates all of you very much. And, huh, how's Dann doing?

She is doing fine. She is teaching economics at college, you know, and everything.

Good for her, please, please give her our best okay. And Joan sends her regards too.

Okay.

Roy, talk a bit about the first time you worked with Sal.

All right, huh, let's see, it would have been on the Avengers. I remembered that...I guess, Sal came in to do, correct me if I'm wrong Sal, but you came in really to do the inking of your brother, originally right?

Yeah, I think one of the first major inking jobs I had was the Silver Surfer.

Yeah.

That was because John almost insisted on it. He just...you know how he was jealous about people inking him. He just insisted that...I was just one of the few guys that did an adequate job on his pencils.

Right, right.

So, but yeah, that was the original intent but then somehow I wound up doing the Avengers.

You wanted to do some samples and I believe you said that John would look at them from time to time and tell you when you weren't ready yet and I believe at some stage he said it’s time to bring him in or something. And I remember that Stan and I, of course, Stan would have been the one that made the final determination. But, if I recall correctly, the first thing that you did, I had you do a couple of pages of an Avengers theme that would start an issue, no particular issue, with the, huh, with Captain America sort of swinging in Batman-like over the top of the Avengers Mansion. And suddenly in this splash panel, from out behind somewhere, rushes this guy, the Man-Ape that John and I had created, you know, big buy from Africa and this big white ape.

Yeah, yeah, but that was actually a full issue that I did Roy.

You just did...but I only plotted two to three pages to get you going, to give you something to do, to see how it would go. And then later, we put out the whole story. But it wasn't the first Avengers that was published by you. That came out after you had two or three others then, see. But it was the first thing that you did. You must have done a good job, because I learn a year or two ago that, when they publish this in what, five or ten years ago, in Spain, they translated it all, I got copies of it, and they credited that issue to John, even though it said Sal on it.

Is that right? (Laughter) I used to swipe him right out the window.

You fooled them, honestly, you fooled them. Then, the first thing after that, because Stan was always yanking John off to do something else. I'd just got him on the Avengers for a while and he'd yank him off. Then I had him on the Submariner and he'd yank him off, to do something else. So, you know, I was, you know, complaining about this, but he said, well you know, we have Sal there, what a great job Sal did, you know what that'll work out pretty well, you know, and everything. That will be great.

And you yanked me off a that didn't you? (Laughter)

Well, eventually, but you did quite a few. We started off with this story with...you had quite an epic in the beginning...because I remember we started the story with Kang the Conquerer and the Grandmaster character we made up playing a chess game. And, let's see, in the course of those few issue, I had you to ring in the Human Torch, and Captain America and the Submariner from the forties. We made up that whole group the Squadron Sinister that became the Squadron Supreme that we designed that were parodies of the Justice League characters. So you really had quite a story right off the bat there.

And those books were just put into Marvel Masterworks form recently 'cause Roy, I saw your intro to them.

Yeah, yeah.

Were they really?

Yeah, they were.

Hey! More royalties. (Inaudible)

I just look, I see the dollar signs, that's wonderful. (Laughter)

Roy, talk about, since you've worked with both the Buscema brothers, what's the differences in working in art style with John and Sal?

Well, of course, superficially, the work, you know, they kind of resembled each other, especially in those days, when Sal wanted to resemble John. As time went on, of course, he gradually developed his own style. Huh, I supposed Sal would probably admit that maybe John was the better draftsman, slightly, you know.

Obviously he was. Yes. He was a much much better draftsman.

You were sort of…with him (John) I could always see, kind of, the under-drawings and see where it was going. With Sal, I got these (inaudible) drawings, you know, so it was kind of hard to see the processes. But, you know, when you printed the books, and this was the bottom line, you know, they looked quite similar. I looked at a particular panel, just like those Spanish guys did, you know I can't always, you know, tell where it came from. Both of you guys, had these early periods, when you drew like you wanted to, like John did before Stan, you know, convinced him that he should sort of become a Kirby clone, and you knew John then, you know, and he probably did to the best of his ability.

Everybody had to become a Kirby clone.

Well, you started off sort of as a Buscema clone, you know, as he was a clone of a guy who, of course, was gonna have to become a Kirby clone. You had a double thing, you know. You wanted to match John and you wanted to match Kirby at the same time.

And I failed miserably at both didn't I?

No, no, you succeeded very well. You were a very popular artist. The books that you were on, had a tendency to have the right subject matter. They flowed pretty well on the average and everything like that. Nobody was approving everything all the time; we all had our hits and our misses. But, no, it was quite a successful...submariner...

Well, Roy, I have to tell you, when I started penciling, and I think the Avengers books were the first books that I, the first assignment I got from your guys. Huh, it was a little bit terrifying because really, you know, I had never really done comics on a regular basis. I was a commercial artist for close to 15 years before I started doing comic books and that was a little terrifying because the group books are the most difficult books to do and the Avengers happens to be one of the most difficult of the group books to do because they're all so different, each character is different. It was, really, a monumental task. And boy, I just sweated every page, I really did, and I was slow as molasses too. And one of the things that I always prided myself was the fact that I was pretty fast, but not on those issues. And I think I did, what, two or three and I guess either you or Stan decided you wanted me to do something else and I went on to, what, the Submariner, if I remember rightly.

It may have been that John came back or something like that or whatever. But, huh, it wasn’t that you were being kicked off 'cause you weren't doing a good job because we were really happy about the beginning. If you say you did Submariner then, I haven’t checked that. I was just thinking how, really much, I enjoyed working on those Submariners stories with you. That was, I think, you started around the time that I wanted to make him ecologically aware. He goes in and he stomps into the UN, you know, like that one that Jack had done.

Yeah.

But this time, he's in there to tell them about, you know, to really give them an ecological lecture. He’s gonna police the seas so they can't polute anymore. You know, I had some fun for those few issues. I don't think you worked on too many but they were good issues, as I recall.

And I remember them fondly.

Roy, before you go, do you have a funny Sal Buscema story you'd like to share with the group?

All my stories are funny.

Well, hum, let me see here.

Actually, Roy told me that there was nothing humourous about me at all. He may have trouble coming up with something.

Well, he's a writer, he can make one up.

Actually, I already told my funny story about the Man-Ape, you know, being credited to John, and stuff like that. Also, I think, I do wish I knew whose idea it was, I made up this character, I sort of drew up a sketch of him, of Hyperion, who was a takeoff on Superman, remember him Sal, for that Squadron Sinister group. I was real pleased because I don't know if I told you, but when it came in, there were one or two flying poses in there that were like straight out of Wayne Boring. And I just laughed.

Absolutely. And that was very deliberate too. Exactly.

I thought that was really great. I doubt if I told you to do that. But I thought, you were really getting into it and at that time, you had only drawn a couple issues and I thought that was great. I remember telling your story at the Stan Lee Roast in 1995 about when Stan jumping up on the desk and terrifying you.

You were there right.

At least with me, you only got the scripts in the mail, or the plot in the mail, I wasn't gonna wave anything at you, but we actually didn't meet that often as I recall. You didn't come in the office that terribly often didn't you?

No, well, it was one of the comments I made earlier. It was probably a mistake that I made, that I didn't come to New York. Once I started getting a regular flow of work from Marvel, for some reason, I never even thought of coming up to the office that often. I think, in retrospect, that was a mistake on my part. I should have come up there to let everybody know that I was more than just a voice on the phone, you know.

I don't know, they kept you busy for what, twenty/thirty years, I think maybe it worked out.

(Laughing) I guess so, I guess.

Well, Roy, I appreciate you taking time to talk to Sal.

Hey Roy, thank you so much. I'm honored that you would take some time out to do this. Thanks a million and my best to Dann.

I gotta keep him a good mood because we got to make sure we get that interview with you finished for Alter Ego.

I think it's done. (Laughter)

I think it's finally done. Okay well...

I think it's finally finished. It only took a year and a half!

It only took a year and a half, right. Well, okay, happy birthday Sal.

Thank you Roy, thank you so much.

Thank you Roy.

Nice talking to you.

Thanks for coming Roy.

Bye guys...Ron and huh...Tom and everybody.

Take care sir.

Thank you sir.

All right, how is "This is your life" going Sal? What do you think?

Oh my Gosh, I'm having problems staying awake if you want to know the truth. (Laughter)

I love it! (Inaudible)

That's what happens when you get to be my age. You know, you just fall asleep. (Inaudible)

He's still crabbing about not eating, he's got low blood sugar...piece of bread...

I’m also going blind from hunger over here.

Yeah...

Get the guy an IV or something...I don't know... (Laughter)

Well, Brad is dialing up the next special guest…you gotta cool it with the self-defacing stuff...because I got news for you cause that stuff you did with Roy, the Grandmaster story, and the Squadron Sinister, and that Submariner work and all that kind of jazz, that was just some of the book, the reason, not that it's necessarily a wonderful compliment, but that's why I'm in the industry. 'Cause that stuff, when I was growing up reading comics, that's what took me from just reading comics, the BC stuff and everything, to having the comics actually reach inside me and grab my heart and make it vibrate.

Oh my gosh...Ron... (Inaudible)

That's what made me want to tell stories and do this stuff. I mean, that was some amazing stuff.

Thank you, you are very kind, I may start crying any minute here.

The only question I always had is how come John got away from drawing the Submariner with a round head and how come everybody else did the Bill Everett flathead? That's what I want to know.

I have no idea. (Laughter) It's something I've been trying to figure out myself.

Sal, this is our, I'm gonna call our third out of fourth, we've got one more after this person.

Oh my gosh.

We're getting them on the line.

Who could this be Sal?

All right, we're ringing. (Sal laughs)

(Laughter)

Come on Sal, guess...

Huh...who is it...who is it?

(Phone ringing)

Hello...

Hi, is this Danny?

This is Danny.

Hi, it's Brad Douglas from the Crawlspace. How you doing?

Okay, how are you?

I'm good. You got Sal Buscema on the line.

Sal, this is Danny.

Danny Fingeroth?

Hi Sal!

Hey Dan, how are you?

Good, how are you?

I'm doing fine. I'm a little overwhelmed here by you guys showing up for this, whatever it is we are doing here.

It's a podcast. (Laughter)

We are honoring you for surviving all these years and having surviving dealing with all of us.

Good choice of words my friend. Thank you so much Danny.

Danny, we also have Ron Frenz and Tom DeFalco on the line.

Oh I know those guys. Hey, you guys owe me money!

I think they're both asleep. (Laughter)

Where's that ten dollars you guys owe me?

I've been meaning to mail it to you. You know.

He told me it was in the mail Dan. I wouldn't cash the cheque for a while though.

You can hold onto until my brother straighten his job, you know the hunchback. (Laughter)

I appreciate that. I'll just invest it in that Madoff fund you told me about Tom.

Oh okay...(laughter)

Danny, talk a bit about the first time you worked with Sal. Was it, I did my research last night, was it with the spectacular title in 1991? Is that when you started with Sal?

I would have to guess, I bet somewhere in the seventies when I was a child. But I bet somewhere when I was working on the British titles with Larry Leiber, I bet somewhere in there Sal must have done a cover or a splash page or something for us.

Really?

But officially, what do you think Sal? Does that sound familiar?

Oh my gosh, you're talking to the guy with the worst memory on the face of the planet. I don't know what I had for breakfast this morning.

It's all about food with Sal, I'm noticing.

That's what happens when you're starving! (Laughter)

Oh, we're keeping you from dinner?

Brad decided to do this interview during my dinner time period, consequently, I'm getting weak from hunger over here.

You know you can eat while we do this. Tom's already had a pizza.

(Inaudible) ...the chewing without any noise, you know, beyond anything that we can comprehend.

According to my computer here, I think the first thing we did together on that run on Spectacular Spider-Man was issue 175, in April 1991.

Oh, so this was sometime after I had been on the book for a while.

You came back with Jim Salicrup.

That's right. That's right yes. I started the book, I think, gee, I don't know, in the early seventies?

It was 1976.

I did the first fifteen to twenty issues. I'm sorry?

I think 76, I think was the year you started that. I could be wrong. (Note: Brad was right, it was in December 1976)

Is that right? Okay. I defer to you.

Then he came back around 88. I didn't realized, again thanks to the miracles of the internet, you did a hundred, pretty much consecutive issues from the time you came back. That's unbelievable.

We just had Stan Lee on the show and he beat Stan and Jack Kirby's record by 2. He had 104 issues straight.

Fantastic. That's what you call staying power huh?

I did thirty issues of Spider-Girl, does that count?

Go back to your pizza Tom!! (Laughter)

Did we sell that many...my gosh?!

I haven't, but he has.

I love it...Danny, talk about, as an editor, what Sal like to work with.

Temperamental, nothing but tantrums. Once we had a fistfight, I had to hit him with a chair.

I was afraid of this. (Laughter) Oh, I was afraid of this.

Incredible prima donna. I won't work with that writer, I won't work with that inker. You know, I'm going over to DC, I'm starting my own company, you know, and that’s not even going into the various personal insults. The guy was a nightmare, a horror show.

No, no, I said Sal Buscema. (Laughter)

Danny has never forgiven me...(Inaudible)

One of the things that Danny did, which, seriously, I thought was excellent, was that he would get all the Spider-Man people together, the artists and writers, and so on and so forth, bring us up to New York and we would discuss what was gonna happen for the next six month to a year. One of those occasions, we went out to dinner, and then we went to a pool room. And I beat Danny's butt so badly...frankly, he didn't even know how to hold a cue stick.

I'm the world's worst pool player. So beating me is no big deal.

And I'm the world's best, so you can only imagine what a slaughter it was.

I will say you...my advice to everybody is never play pool with Sal for money. Sal was one of the guys who will point to a spot on the pool table and say "I'm gonna make the ball stop there" and he'll make the ball stop there. That was unbelievable.

He was a stand-in for the hustler. (Laughter)

You give me too much credit Dan.

I saw you do it Sal!

...you've never forgiven me for that.

Dan, his work, was it ever late? You hear or artists missing deadlines all the time...did he ever miss a deadline?

No...you know...no, this was Sal Buscema!

We had deadlines in comics? Now they tell me! (Laughter)

I was always very...I know that Sal always used to talk about how much he enjoyed working with J. M. Dematteis. I think they were a terrific match, the work they did together. I think you guys inspired each other.

Yeah, we really did, we really did. I also enjoyed working with the guy on the other side of the phone too. He wasn't bad, you know. He might make a good writer someday...(Laughter)

Is Tom still there?

Yeah, Tom's eating.

He's eating his pizza, right.

He still got the pizza, yeah.

One of the pepperonis fell on the floor.

Well, pick it up quick before the dog gets it.

Five second rules Sal, you're allowed up to five seconds.

Five seconds.

I'm sorry...what Ron?

That's the five second rule Sal when the pepperoni hit the floor.

That's the (inaudible) second brother over there, that's Ron Frenz.

Well, thank you very much Dan, I appreciate it.

That's a pretty high compliment Ron.

And I take it as such.

This is like trying to wrangle cats...I'm talking...

Danny, talk about, what do you think modern artists or artists that are coming up should take away from Sal. If you've never miss a deadline with one-hundred and four...

(Interrupts) My bank account! (Laughter)

The thing about deadlines, editors, writers and artists, we tear our hair over deadlines, but twenty years later, you don't remember who made deadlines and who didn't. But what you remember, and I've been sort of jotting down some (inaudible) observations here, so whether they are (inaudible) or not, that's for Sal to decide. Sal is a guy who reinvented himself, who when he saw like new guys coming down the pike, didn't say, you know, as I would hear old timer said and I said it myself, these guys have no talents, they're just a bunch of fakes and frauds, it's only guys from my generation that know how to do comics very good. But Sal said, wow these guys are pretty good, I gotta raise my game and he did that, you know, so when new talent would come in, Sal would see it as a challenge both creatively and financially. You look at the work and Sal's work looks modern and yet stayed true to the eternal necessity of storytelling and figure drawing. It’s really impressing, not a lot of guys can do that. You look at the credits over those 40 years Sal has been in the business and he's one of the few names that consistently is there, and consistently had big fan following and big sales. Another thing I was kind of thinking of is...because your style, Sal, is more or less a naturalistic one, when people like Dematteis, Conway or Mr. DeFalco would ask you to draw these outlandish things, they became even creepier, and scarier and weirder, because you draw in such a naturalistic style...I kind of been thinking about that...and it really, and it kind of added a power to it, that sort of subtlety and restraint made the bizarre stuff even more intense...those were the two main things that I noticed about your work.

Well, you're very kind Danny...thank you very much. I have no idea what the hell you're talking about but thank you. (Laughter)

I don't know either...I'm writing books now...and I don't know what the hell...(Inaudible) (Laughter) I'm the (Inaudible) of comics now...the (Inaudible) authority (Inaudible) I gotta say stuff like that.

I asked this to Stan Lee and I asked this to Roy, do you have a funny Sal story to tell us?

Well, that was the pool story...just that...you know...I'm notable because I played pool like three times in my life...almost everybody plays pool...they have it in their basements, or they're in college...and Sal was the only guy I played with who would say "I'm gonna put the ball in that pocket" and it went in that pocket, "I'm gonna make the ball stand still" and it stood still. (Inaudible)

And Sal is a very gentlemenly, high class kind of guy. You don't expect that kind of thing from him. So when I forked over those three hundred dollars that I was sure I would not lose, I came away with a newfound respect, so that's probably, you know, my funniest Sal story.

One of the things he didn't mentioned though, is that I had my two boys, Guido and Luigo, in the room, keeping an eye on Danny. And they kind of told him: "If you beat Sal, we're gonna break your thumbs".

I don't think there was much danger of that.

Sal, I never knew you played pool like that. I always wanted to learn how to play the game.

Tom, I really have to be very very honest about this..and Danny is gonna hate me for saying this...Danny is so bad...

(Interrupts) I'm not claiming I was good!

...compared to...he thought I was like Willy Yoppie...I don't know if you remember Willy Yoppie, one of the greatest billiard players of all time. These people that you see on television now in those billiard tournament. Compared to Danny, that's who I was. But really, as far as pool playing goes, I'm probably less than average. If he had played…John was a better pool player than I was, and my brother Hal was better than both of us...as they say...you know what's happening...my phone is losing power...the battery is going dead...so I'm running upstairs...hang with me guys...

This is really exciting...it's almost like an action movie!

(Does movie sound effect)

...to get another phone before this thing dies all together.

We're holding this thing together with duct tape Sal! (Laughter)

I'm not sure the duct tape is gonna help.

I'm gonna tell you one time where Sal bailed me out.

Okay here we are...I'm on the speakerphone...can you hear me?

I can hear you.

I just thought of a time where Sal bailed me out of a really tight spot. Spectacular Spider-Man Annual, back in the eighties and the artist I had on it, was late, oddly enough – a comic book artist who was late – a terrific artist but he had some deadline issues and Sal stepped in and saved my rear end and saved the annual. I don't know if you remember that Sal, and I don't want to mention the artist.

I wouldn't remember anyway.

Yeah, you probably did that, saved people like five hundred time.

I know what you're talking about though. I think that's the first time you and I ever worked together.

That might have been probably it.

As a matter of fact, if I remember correctly, it was probably during one of my infrequent trips to New York. And you called me into your office and asked me if I would finish the book up.

That might be...that might be.

And, of course, being a (Inaudible) fellow, I said: "absolutely".

Of course. I just remember, you know, it was literally in the middle of a scene in the comic...this other artist couldn't even finish the scene...so...you just suddenly go from one...and probably most of you didn't even notice…but to me, it was jarring...'cause you and the other artist had somewhat different styles, but you saved my ass and that book, that comic shipped on time.

And I was happy to do it...and I expect you to be indebted to me for eternity. (Laughter)

Oh, I am...I am.

Danny, we got one more person we go to...

I do remember that Dan, oh I am sorry...go ahead...

We got one more person we got to get on the line before six, so Danny, I appreciate...

Okay, that's it for you Danny, you're out of here.

Okay thanks, does it mean I'm hanging up?

Thank you so much, I can't tell you how much this means to me, and I mean that sincerely.

The second they ask me to do it I said: "Of course I'm there".

Thank you again my friend, I really appreciate it, and continued success in whatever you are doing.

You too sir. Do I hang up or stay on the line?

Yes sir, I'll hang up on you. (Laughter)

Okay guys, well enjoy the rest of the show. Bye-bye.

Take care Danny.

Take it easy Dan.

Hey Sal, is the other phone totally dead? Because it sounds a lot better than this one. Or do you have another phone?

Yeah, hold on.

Okay, I'm making Sal work tonight, aren't I? (Laughter)

I'll tell you what, I'm gonna go into another room here...(Inaudible) electronic age we live in. I'm gonna get another phone that may even better, so let's see what happens.

How many phones are in the Buscema residence? (Laughter)

Forty or fifty, I don't know...

Holy cow, that's a lot better right there.

Is that better, okay?

That sounds perfect, okay

We'll stay here then.

Ron and Tom, can you hear him clearly now? Okay, all right, our final person on the line for you, I'm getting right now. All right, here we go.

My gosh, who is this? (Phone ringing)

It's ringing. Hopefully they're there.

This is dramatic.

(Answering machine picks up) You've reached the office of J. M. Dematteis, please leave a message or send a fax.

Well Sal, it was J. M. Dematteis.

Mark Dematteis? I'll never forgive him.

Leave him a message Sal, go ahead.

Hey Marc, yeah this is Sal...sorry we missed you buddy. I would loved to have talked to you. I hope everything is going well and I have no idea what else to say so good bye.

J. M., sorry we missed you. We'll talk to you later. Bye. Well that was my fourth person, Sal. I don't have anybody else Sal.

Well, it was a hell of a line up Brad, I'll tell you.

(Inaudible) that J. M. Dematteis is now the editor-in-chief or another comic book company?

Yes that's right, what is it called? IDW in California somewhere.

It's called Ardden Entertainment.

I'm sorry?

It's called Ardden Entertainment. It's the company that does Flash Gordon. I figured I'd give him a plug.

There you go.

That thing you did Sal was for another publisher, something he's doing for another publisher. He's actually in-house staff for a company called Ardden Publishing.

Oh, it's Ardden. Oh, I see.

He's not doing a book for IDW?

He is doing a book, that's what I’m saying. He is doing a book for IDW but he's actually in-house talent for Ardden Publishing.

Oh I see, okay, okay.

Okay gang, we're gonna wrap up the first hour right about there. We have two more shows that will be coming out in the next few days with Sal and the gang. Our next show, we will be taking live callers from around the world. We had a record turnout of people that wanted to get on the phone and talk to Sal. And in the third show, we will answer your written questions from the Spider-Man crawlspace message board. Before we go, I want to thank mailrordercomics.com for sponsoring this show into the New Year. They are still accepting orders for January books. An example of their spectacular (pun intended) discount is Amazing Spider-Man #588. The cover price is $3.99 and mail-order has it for $2.47, which is a 38% discount off the cover price. So check them out at mailordercomics.com and tell them the crawlspace sent you, and I appreciate it. And gang, we will back in a few days to continue celebrating the forty years of Sal Buscema at Marvel Comics. I'm your host, Brad Douglas, thanks for listening and visiting the Spider-Man crawlspace.com.