An Open Letter to Neal Punt

A Response to the Major Premise of What's Good About the Good News?

By Rev. John Moes, Chaplain, Seattle Seamen's Center

In both your book and Internet postings you ask us to adopt View B . . .

All persons are elect in Christ (that is, "will be saved," "justified," "on the way to heaven," "under grace," "children of God") except those who the Bible expressly declares will be finally lost .

. . . instead of View A . . .

All persons are outside of Christ (that is "lost," "condemned," "one the way to hell," "under law," "children of wrath") except those who the Bible expressly declares will be saved.

Reminded me of the story of the two skunks, one named Out and the other In, living in their burrow on a hillside. One day, while Out stayed in, In went out into the woods and got lost. Worried, Out went out into the woods to look for In. Finally Out found In in an outhouse. How could Out find In so quickly? "In-stinked."

My "instinct," after reading your materials, tells me "there is something rotten in" the Low Countries.

A and B both define two conditions: "outside-of-Christ" and "in-Christ." The first question that comes to mind is: Are these conditions mutually exclusive; i.e., Is no one of the "in" group part of the "out" group, no one from the "out" group part of the "in" group, and is no one outside both groups?

You say both Calvinists and Arminians have been assuming View A. Question & Answer 20 of the Heidelberg Catechism states the Calvinist position:

Q. 20: "Are all men, then, saved by Christ as they perished through Adam."

A. 20: "No; but only those who by a true faith are in-grafted into Him and receive all His benefits."

Note in the Question the past tense "perished" -- and that "saved" procedurally follows "perished." All those in the "in" group were in the "out" group. It does not say all in the "out" group were in the "in." All men perished. Not all men are saved. Note also the "Are" in contrast to the "will be" in your View B: "ARE all men saved" vs. "Elect WILL BE saved." The Catechism answer is descriptive in passive terms -- those who are in-grafted and receive -- and does not refer to conditions required to be performed by recipients.

I, therefore, take exception to your exceptions. First of all, the exceptions of A fit in B and the exceptions of B fit in A:

A -- All persons are outside of Christ (that is, are "lost," "condemned," "on the way to hell," "under law," "children of wrath," all of whom the Bible expressly declares will be finally lost) except the elect in Christ.

B -- All persons are elect in Christ (that is, "will be saved," "justified," "on the way to heaven," "under grace," "children of God," all of whom the Bible expressly declares will be saved) except those outside of Christ.

In one sense A and B, thus stated, are mutually exclusive. Certainly after the "last trump" every soul ever conceived will be either "in" or "out." In the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares, Jesus explained, "The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one" (Matt. 13:38). "Let them both grow together until the harvest" (Matt. 13:30).

But we acknowledge that history figures in before that last trumpet. So, on the day in history when Adam ate the forbidden fruit, historically every person ever to be conceived is lost, condemned, on the way to hell, a child of wrath. (We won't say, "under law," because Romans 5 says those from Adam to Moses weren't under law.) It is out of this group and out of this condition that those in the "in" group were chosen before history. In this second sense, then, the two groups are coterminous, at least, all in the "in" group historically are also in the "out" group. "Christ Jesus came into the world to save SINNERS," "to seek the lost," "to justify the condemned, to put those on the road to hell on the road to heaven, to make those who are children of wrath children of God. However, not all in the "out" group were elected to be in the "in" group before history.

I disagree also with your statement about exceptions on page 27. You say:

Even though Romans 5:18a says "one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men," there was not "condemnation for all men." Jesus did not share in the Fall when the descendants of Adam were "made sinners by" Adam's disobedience (Rom. 8:19).

You fail to distinguish between guilt and pollution. True, He was not "conceived and born in sin." But why was he "born of a woman, born under the law"? Why were his circumcision and baptism necessary? Catechism Answer 16: "Because the justice of God requires that the same human nature which has sinned should make satisfaction for sin." Jesus was condemned for Adam's sin just as much as he was condemned for mine. Therefore, there is NO exception to the in-Adam-all of Romans 5. But He was "slain from before the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8), for those who, before the foundation of the world, needed a savior, that is, for known rebels, for the lost.

Therefore, either (a) the in-Christ-all of Rom. 5:18b is just as much a universal as 18a (the two "all's' refer to the same identical number -- all who God knew would be eventually conceived), or (b) the one "all" is referring to a completely different group than the other "all," or (c) the one "all" is referring to an identifiable part of the other.

You seem to have defined "elect" somewhat differently than common usage. I knew of a case where a consistory presented to the congregation an "uno," -- the name of only one prospective minister --instead of the usual "trio" of ministerial candidates. They still held an "election." Divine election is the same. God, in electing before the foundation of the world, considered every lost-in-Adam individual individually with two options -- either to include that individual in Christ or to not include that individual in Christ -- either "in" or "out." But every one being considered was already considered condemned in Adam. That has to be the prior condition. Faith is not a condition for salvation but being a sinner IS. You can't be saved until there is some situation from which to be saved.

The "already" in John 3:18 is before there was a hearing of the Word. He that believes not, has been condemned (present perfect tense, passive voice) by that time, seeing that he still hasn't believed. To make the hoti causative, one would have to leave the "already" out. "He that doesn't believe is condemned (present or future) BECAUSE . . . " The "already" with the perfect tense makes the following clause descriptive. (Just like Matt. 5:28: "Anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already [by that time] committed adultery with her in his heart." "Adultery" is descriptive of a condition that precedes the other action. Or John 4:35: "Don't say that it is four months till harvest. Lift up your eyes and look on the fields, hoti they are white to harvest already." "White" precedes the present saying and lifting.) Condemned is a condition by the time there is unbelief, the unbelief is evidence of that condition.

Even more! "Condemned" could not be in the perfect tense if there is a chance that before the person dies he will stop his unbelief. Jesus did not say, "He that does not believe is on probation -- he MAY BE condemned, " No, he has been ALREADY, at the time he is not believing. Only believing in the name of the Son of God will change that. And the condemnation was death, so he is too dead to believe. Only God gives the gift of new life out of which faith develops, and that only to condemned unbelievers. You cannot be in Christ until you have been a sinner, have been in Adam, have been an enemy, have died. One-hundred percent of all souls ever conceived are ALREADY included in the in-Adam-all. And since and as long as they still haven't believed, they remain there.

The elect are not chosen because of foreseen works or faith. But neither are they chosen because God foresaw that they, unlike others, would stop their unbelief or stop their sins of omission before they die. Stopping your failing means doing what you had been failing to do. But if doing what you were failing to do is a condition of salvation, then salvation is not of grace. If faith is a gift (Eph. 2:8-9), and if faith is necessary for a person and his children to get to heaven, then, of all the unbelieving candidates on the ticket -- the in-Adam-all -- only a remnant are elected to receive the gift.

Now if you, instead, make the "elect in Christ" the candidate list from which some do NOT receive salvation, then you have redefined "elect." Because, by the usual definition, not one elected person is lost, every one is born again to ETERNAL life, all of them "have passed from death to life" (I John 3:14); and the decision concerning that person's destiny was made before the foundation of the world -- but not without consideration of the foreseen prior "in-Adam" death condition. "We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the influence of the evil one" (I John 5:19). Romans 5 is indeed talking about "an actual, certain-to-be-realized salvation." But how can a salvation be actual and certain to be realized if it ISN'T certain what it is salvation from.

The condition from which a chosen number are saved is exactly the same condition in which those who are lost stay, from which they are not saved.

Between creation and the last trumpet, God knows the exact number (x) of souls that He will create. Every last one will, in that time, be in-Adam condemned. Out of (x) there is an exact number (y) whom God chose before the foundation of the world, to be the "elect in Christ." But (x) and (y) are not the same number, even though all (y) were historically in (x). "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature . . ." (Col. 2:13). "Once you were alienated from God and were enemies . . ." (Col. 1:21). "But now . . ." (vs. 22). "Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3); "at that time you were separated from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:12); "But now . . . " (vs 13). The "But now . . . " in both Colossians and Ephesians stands between "out" and "in." What makes the "But now . . . " a reality is the pre-creation act of God choosing certain persons named in THE BOOK, plus the in-time act of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, I don't see how you can avoid it: If you make the "elect in Christ" the candidate list from which some do NOT receive salvation, View B, then you are denying irresistible grace. Then it would be possible, even absolutely certain, according to Romans 3, that no one would be saved. God, not man, would still need to choose SOME out of the "elect in Christ" to get special attention if He is to have anyone in heaven with Him. What's more, if Adam in his state of perfection didn't believe God and hid from Him, what makes anyone think that those conceived and born in sin will do any better or seek after God? Even "What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The rest were hardened" (Romans 11:7). Why? Because they sought to establish their own righteousness (Rom. 10:3). And what about all those who will say, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name and in your name cast out demons, and perform many miracles?" They have one failing, the sin of omission -- they didn't do the will of the Father, which, Jesus said, is to believe on Him whom He has sent. Wasn't doing miracles in his name believing in him? Not if thereby they were seeking their own righteousness.

I know, many people wince at Adam's sin being imputed to all men, including babies. But even if it weren't, what hope is there that any of his descendants would do any better from a neutral position than he? How much less from a dead condition? I always remind those concerned about imputation of Adam's sin that it is only by the same legal process that our sins are imputed to Jesus. And only by imputation can we get any benefits from Christ's work. No one gets to heaven because of what he does or doesn't DO. No one goes to hell because of what he does or doesn't do. It is what a person IS -- the kind of heart he has from which the issues of life flow. What one IS determines what one will do, not the other way around. "A tree is known by its fruit." One is either a sinner or a saved sinner. All start out with hearts of stone.

God alone can change such a heart, "For it is with the heart that you believe and are justified" (Rom. 10:10). Some He does and some He doesn't change. Some, like The Baptist and Jeremiah, have hearts changed by the time they are born. But even for them, what they got was not what they had originally. The decision as to which heart God will change is not based on the hardness of the heart needing replacement. The human race is all one lump. Paul's answer is in Rom. 9:19-21: You can't question the Potter concerning what He is going to make. But there is no question what He is using to make it: in-Adam clay.

The names of those God elected to include "in Christ" were "written in the Book of Life." Moses, after he had been in the presence of God, knew about THE BOOK (Ex. 32:32-3), and offered to have his name blotted out of it in place of his people. He must have known his name was already in it and would have to be blotted out, not just waiting to be written in. Daniel knew about THE BOOK. "At that time your people -- everyone whose name is found written in the book -- will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:1-2). Malachi: "A Book of remembrance was written before Him for those who feared the Lord and thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, says the Lord of Hosts, in the day when I make up my jewels, and I will spare them as a man spares his son who serves him. And you will see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not" (Mal. 3 16-18). Clement and the rest of Paul's fellow workers were those "whose names are in the book of life" (Phil. 4: 3).

Jesus encouraged us, "Yet don't rejoice that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice rather that your names are written in heaven" (Luke 10:20). But that prompted Jesus in the very next verse to rejoice, thanking the Father "that you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent but revealed them unto babes. Yes, Father, for thus it was well-pleasing before you" (10:21). He continues to explain, "No one knows who the Son is except the Father; and who is the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son may will to reveal Him" (10:22). "I will never erase his name from the Book of Life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels" (Rev. 3:5). "Glorify me . . . with the glory I had with you before the world was. I revealed your name to the men you have given me OUT OF THE WORLD" [emphasis added] (John 17:6). I am not praying for the world but for those you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9).

Here you have the real exceptions to consider: those to whom the Father and the Son decide to give REVELATION and those from whom these things are hidden. The names of those to whom the Father will be revealed were written in THE BOOK before time. According to Rev. 13:8 and 17:8, however, there were, before the foundation of the world, names that were NOT written in THE BOOK -- "the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." God certainly knew those names. Did God foresee anything in those not written in THE BOOK that was different than those IN THE BOOK? No, all were at one stage in Adam. Those in THE BOOK are the Heavenly Father's gift, chosen out of the world and given to His Son, before the world began. And not one of them is lost. The very hairs of their heads are numbered (Luke 12:7). He is the same One who "determines the number of the stars and calls them all by name" (Ps. 147:4), and "because of his great power and mighty strength not one of them is missing" (Isa. 40:26). It is He Who says, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all I please'" (Isa. 46:10). "The plans of the Lord stand firm forever; the purposes of his heart through all generations. Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people HE CHOSE [emphasis added] for his inheritance. From heaven the Lord looks down and sees all mankind, from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth -- He who forms the hearts of all, considers everything they do" (Ps. 33:11-15). "Having determined forearranged times and the boundaries of their habitation . . ." (Acts 17:26). "The Lord is on his heavenly throne. He observes the sons of men; his eyes examine them" (Ps. 11:4). "The Lord looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt, there is no one who does good, not even one" (Ps. 14:12-3, Rom. 3).

Probably sixteen billion people died in the Flood (33 doublings of population once every 50 years for 1650 years from Adam to the Flood, with hardly anyone dying for the first 900 years). Only eight people were counted righteous, saved, out of the 16 billion. Yet not one of those 16 billion was counted guilty of breaking a revealed law. "Until law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed there not being law. But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even on those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression" (Rom. 5:13-14). It was because "every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time." There was no law, so their ACTIONS were not credited against them as sin. Yet death reigned. It was what they WERE, the condition of their hearts, the consequence of being "in Adam" which was displayed in deadness.

There are 6 billion people on earth right now. I, personally, have met and talked to thousands of them, some from 65 different countries. To the question, "Is there anyone here who has never done anything wrong?" I have gotten a lot of sheepish grins but never a raised hand. Except for three or four who knew their Bibles, not one had the right answer to the next question, "What needs to be done to take care of those bad things you have done?" To a man they were depending on their own efforts. They are going about trying to establish their own righteousness, just as Israel did and were rejected (Rom. 10:3). What percentage of the 6 billion now living have any better hearts than those before the flood? When God looks down from heaven and examines the hearts of the 6 billion, how many are seeking God or doing good? The condition of their hearts and the issues of life that come from them shows that they are all in Adam. Will they get to heaven with that kind of heart condition? With such hearts will any of them be able to avoid producing evil fruit?

I've told hundreds of people, "Any religion which says, 'Do this, don't do that, be a good person,' is talking Devil talk -- suggesting the same thing Satan did to Eve: 'If you do something, you really don't need God. Your own actions will get you what you need for a better life in the future.'"

All the religions I have encountered are teaching that same lie. Their adherents, most of them, will die in Adam trusting to their dying day in false hopes and erroneous beliefs concerning God. They are the exceptions in your View B and the "all" of View A. I have been going to them for many years because my heart aches for them. I have not the slightest presumption that I could change their hearts, but from my experience I know their hearts need to be changed. I seldom told anyone they had to believe. I told them what God has done in Christ and then asked them IF they believed what I just showed them from the Bible. If they said, "Yes," I would point out all the benefits that accrue to them from being "in Christ." But I made sure they did not take any credit for believing -- that when they believed, that faith was a gift from God because He loved them enough to give His only begotten Son to earn that gift for them. I've seen THE WORD change hundreds of hearts. I believe God, determining the boundaries of their habitation, arranged to have them hear THE WORD, seeking them. Rare was the one coming to me to seek God.

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