dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:31:31 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart)
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:32:02 AM)
Good Morning..
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:32:15 AM)
Good Morning Dr J
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:32:23 AM)
How are you this morning?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:33:40 AM)
Good morning debbie. How are you this am? I'm fine, a bit disconnected as my computer CRASHED and I'm using a colleagues computer.
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:34:31 AM)
That's not good that your computer crashed. Any idea what happened?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:36:27 AM)
We've been having a number of computer crashes here at Gallaudet. We think that one of the recent viruses got into one of the student computers in our computer lab and, unknowingly, the student sent files, email, etc. to a number of different professors and clinic staff. Each of us working with the second year doctor of audiology students has been having problems with computers and, I'm the third computer to crash.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:37:47 AM)
Anyway, they were able to back up my files on the C drive, clean out the entire computer mother board and clear all of the programs, etc. to insure that the virus is gone. Now, yesterday and today, they are reloading all of the programs, etc. and will upload my C drive info. So, hopefully, nothing will be lost.
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:39:02 AM)
Best wishes on restoring all the information. I was very lucky about a year ago when someone sent me a virus deliberately, I was able to isolate the virus and protect my system before it crashed.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:39:10 AM)
In any case, I replied to your email about Sarah. It would be great if I could get the raw data for the SSW. The SSW is one of the most important CAPD tests in my estimation.....maybe, because I was involved at the beginning of it's use in CAPD with kids back in the days when Fred and Wilma brought their daughter Pebbles in for a CAP evaluation :-) ;-)
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:39:27 AM)
=)
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:39:49 AM)
Sarah does kind of look like Pebbles...just have to get the bone for her hair =)
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:40:18 AM)
I will try and contact the audiologist today and see if I can obtain the raw data. May take some time to get the file.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:41:27 AM)
What's funny about this virus is that the only problem seems to be difficulties printing and the computer locks up. With my computer and one of the audiology clinical supervisor's computers, within 15 minutes of the problem starting, we both did the same thing. WHen our computers locked the first time, we did the alt-ctrl-delete to reboot and everything was fine, then, the second lock up when we hit alt-ctrl-delete, the computers completely locked and would not reboot. Turning them on and off gave the error message....can't find the BIOS.
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:42:06 AM)
I"ve tried contacting several places to have Sarah re-evaluated. What I've run into is if the audiologist takes my insurance, they dont do the evaluation. If the aud does the evaluation, they dont take my insurance.
Ammy (ID=24) (Apr 4, 2000 8:42:31 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart)
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:42:43 AM)
Good morning Ammy
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:43:32 AM)
How are you this morning Ammy?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:43:40 AM)
Good morning Ammy.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:44:37 AM)
BRB...
Ammy (ID=24) (Apr 4, 2000 8:44:40 AM)
Good morning everyone.
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:45:48 AM)
Ammy, we are running a bit slow this morning but be patient,,we'll wake up soon =)
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:46:46 AM)
Have you joined one of our chats before?
Ammy (ID=24) (Apr 4, 2000 8:47:06 AM)
I'm not sure I can wake up. In the mean time I'll sit here quietly! No this is my first time.
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:47:46 AM)
We are happy to have you join us this morning. Do you have a child with CAPD?
Ammy (ID=24) (Apr 4, 2000 8:48:51 AM)
I live outside of Houston, TX and I am trying to help a friend who has a child with severe CAPD. I have a child with Aspergers, Tourettes, Bi-Polar.....
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:49:03 AM)
I have a little girl named Sarah who has CAPD. She was dx 2 years ago.
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:49:30 AM)
How old is your friend's child?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:49:50 AM)
Back again.....
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:49:55 AM)
I hope you don't mind me asking questions Ammy
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:50:00 AM)
welcome back Dr J
Ammy (ID=24) (Apr 4, 2000 8:50:14 AM)
Jacqueline is 13 and was finally diagnosed in October, 1999.
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 8:50:18 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart)
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:50:22 AM)
Please thank your colleague for me for letting you use his computer to join us today
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:50:28 AM)
Good Morning Marge!
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 8:50:28 AM)
Hi all!!
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:51:00 AM)
Ammy, you said you are trying to help a friend who has a child with "severe CAPD" Do you mind my asking who diagnosed her and how they dx it as "severe" capd?
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 8:51:05 AM)
brb... getting a cup of coffee :-)
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:51:09 AM)
Good morning Marge.
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 8:51:28 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart)
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:51:52 AM)
Good Morning NCZ
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:51:55 AM)
Good morning ncz/Texas. I hope you don't mind if I call you "n" ;-)
Ammy (ID=24) (Apr 4, 2000 8:52:49 AM)
She was diagnosed at the Battin Clinic in Houston. I'm hoping her mom will be entering the chat soon. Is it you NCZ?
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 8:53:11 AM)
hi ncz
Sam (ID=27) (Apr 4, 2000 8:53:51 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart)
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:53:56 AM)
Ammy, is NCZ or "n" the child's mom?
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:54:07 AM)
Good morning Sam
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:54:12 AM)
Good morning Sam. Is this "Sam I Am"
Sam (ID=27) (Apr 4, 2000 8:54:22 AM)
Good Morning!
Sam (ID=27) (Apr 4, 2000 8:54:44 AM)
Is there a specific topic this morning?
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:55:00 AM)
Ammy, what we've been doing in the Tuesday morning chats is taking a look at different approaches or models of CAPD
Sam (ID=27) (Apr 4, 2000 8:55:30 AM)
What is the the difference between auditory dyslexia and CAPD?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:55:50 AM)
Sam, Debbie just remarked about that.
Sam (ID=27) (Apr 4, 2000 8:56:41 AM)
I'll check the archives. Thanks!
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 8:57:02 AM)
um, i guess i missed that about auditory dyslexia & capd too... but it will be in the transcript for this morning's chat, not the list archives :-)
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 8:57:05 AM)
Dr J is helping us build a foundation on which to build our understanding of CAPD, so that we can find ways of helping our kids by understanding what form of capd they have
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 08:57:11 AM)
Sam, there is and CAN NOT be such a thing as auditory dyslexia since lexia refers to lexicon or words and we do NOT hear words - we hear sounds. However, there are so many misused terms to describe what people want to describe when they talk about problems with words, language, verbal information. etc.
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 8:57:34 AM)
(shouting "amen" from her pew)
Sam (ID=27) (Apr 4, 2000 8:58:32 AM)
But words are made up of sounds.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 8:59:07 AM)
Anyway, since it's 9am eastern time or 8am if you forgot to change your clock as is the casewith the clock in this office I am using.......why don't we "chat" opening for about 5 more minutes, and then, discuss Models of CAPD?
Ammy (ID=24) (Apr 4, 2000 9:00:09 AM)
Ncz/Texas are you there? Are you Linda? Jo
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:00:44 AM)
Sam, yes. Words are made up of sounds. Thus, a person can have a problem understanding the sounds in order to understand the phonemes in order to understand the words, and this is one of the categories of CAPD.......I refer to it as decoding, others refer to it either as decoding or phonemic awareness.
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:00:52 AM)
Ammy,
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:00:54 AM)
chatting for a bit sounds good to me... speaking of terminology, here's 3 that are confusing: "temporal integration", "temporal processing", and "sensory integration".
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:01:03 AM)
Ammy
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:01:31 AM)
.oO(need to push up the screen......)
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:01:33 AM)
Ammy -- I am still here but trying to get my daughter to school.
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:01:52 AM)
my kids are on spring break this week, hence my early arrival
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:02:24 AM)
Marge....good point. Well, if you ever get a chance to come to any of my workshops, Marge and others, you'll hear me say "Processing, what is processing?" For me, that is the greatest misunderstood term........
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:03:05 AM)
please do let the list know next time you're doing workshops... if you are within about a 5 hr drive of atlanta, i would certainly make the effort to come
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:03:34 AM)
Anyway, Marge, and others, Temporal refers to time. One of the most critically important concepts underlying MY personal approach or model to CAPD is that the reason we see the breakdown in information processing in children via the auditory channel is that sound/auditory stimuli is "time locked.."
cj (ID=28) (Apr 4, 2000 9:03:35 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart)
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:03:47 AM)
hi cj
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 9:03:56 AM)
hi CJ
cj (ID=28) (Apr 4, 2000 9:04:02 AM)
hi marge and all!
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:04:47 AM)
By time locked, I mean, once you hear something, you can NEVER hear the EXACT same thing again. Even if you consider a recording. If you turn your head, slightly, you've just changed the auditory signal. Only recorded sound comes closest to being able to be closely duplicated as a sensory experience........
cj (ID=28) (Apr 4, 2000 9:06:08 AM)
If a child does not have NO problems w phonemic awareness would a program like ffw be benificial and how benificial?
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:06:31 AM)
Ammy-- I am not Linda--who is Linda?
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 9:07:15 AM)
CJ, Ann Osterling from FFW will be with us tonight to discuss FFW, she is a provider for the program and she's be able to answer questions regarding FFW for you if you'd like to join us.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:07:16 AM)
In contrast, we can touch things and the touch will not change (our perception may, but the sensing will be the same)....same for taste, visual, etc. We can stare at something for a looooong time.....we can taste something in our mouthes for a looooong time, we can feel something for a loooooong time.....but, we can only hear something for a matter of milliseconds. Even sustained sounds, like sirens and alarms and a person saying a sound of speech extended in time, is artificial and changes with changes over time even though our concept and percept is "it's the same." thus, temporal or time is critical to auditory processing of any auditory signal.
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:08:18 AM)
it's amazing that anybody ever hears/processes well at all! i never heard it put that way before.
Ammy (ID=24) (Apr 4, 2000 9:08:32 AM)
ncz/Texas Linda is the mother of Jacqueline, the 13 yr. old girl I am helping.
cj (ID=28) (Apr 4, 2000 9:08:49 AM)
thanks debbie. i woul d also like to hear dr. j's thoughts about this
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 9:09:28 AM)
cj...just wanted to make sure you knew about Ann since tonight is her first with us. =)
cj (ID=28) (Apr 4, 2000 9:09:49 AM)
thanks i will try to be there debbie
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:11:30 AM)
cj....you ask a good question. SInce fast forward (usually abbreviated FFWD) is a program modifying the time elements of speech and sound to help a child develop better perception and, eventually, conception of speech and sound, then, any child with a problem in auditory perception at the temporal or time level is an appropriate candidate for FFWD. However, the program has good elements in it for attention.....auditory-visual-motor integration........phonemic awareness.....so, a child with problems in phonemic awarenss may find benefit from using FFWD. However, according to my thinking, FFWD does NOT train anything.....it merely provides experiences in temporal processing of speech and sound, phonemic awareness, auditory-visual-motor integration, and attention........Thus, the program provides experiences (sensations for sensing) to improve perception. However, if we ever get to MY approach or model of CAPD, I hope you will see that processing is NOT a sensory issue, nor a perceptual issue. Processing
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:11:40 AM)
Ammy--Is that the girl with severe CAPD in 7th grade that wants to be a cheerleader? The mother posted a message last night on the listserve about her daughter.
Ammy (ID=24) (Apr 4, 2000 9:12:58 AM)
Yes! Actually that was my posting.
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 9:13:28 AM)
Dr J,,,,I"m trying to understand how the processing is affected by time...is it the amount of time it takes to hear what is being processed...or what all is being processed at that time, ie background noises......
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:14:17 AM)
To address Marge's comments......Marge you are right. And I'd bet there isn't a person in here who HASN'T experienced a problem in sensing or in perception. Think about it? However, what we do with our missensing or misperceptions (we usually call it mishearing) relates to how we conceptualize information we have received through the auditory channel. Thus, we realize a problem and ask for clarification or verification, or we figure out what was REALLY said by other (non-auditory) cues. Thus, in my approach...in my model, the underlying factor in PRoCESSING is conceptualization and how we use what we sense and what we perceive to form concepts.
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:14:40 AM)
Ammy--I would think your daughter would qualify for extended year service for Speech/Language this summer.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:14:49 AM)
Debbie, you asked about how processing is affected by time.....essentially in two ways.....
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 9:16:08 AM)
Ammy, I've not caught up on all the posts from last night, but will catch up in a bit
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:16:13 AM)
First, since auditory stimuli (sound) occurs ONLY for a brief period of time, we need to have the proper sensory system to pick up the information IN THAT brief period of time and be aware that there is a sound IN THAT brief period of time. Additionally, we need to be able to extract or DECODE the information rapidly since it lasts for only a brief period of time AND it changes over time.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:18:08 AM)
Second, the time transitions affect the auditory stimuli or sound. That is, changes in time CAN change the sounds we hear......example....../t/ and /s/ are produced exactly the same way.....but, /s/ is merely a longer flow of air than /t/ and is a different phoneme or speech sound.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:18:53 AM)
.oO(need to push up the screen again)
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 9:19:18 AM)
so since the /s/ is a longer flow of air,,if the amount of time is affected it may be processed as a /t/ instead?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:19:36 AM)
Another example of time changes involves VOWELS....and these changes are VERY subtle.....which is why, probably, so many kids have reading problems related to vowels.
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 9:19:59 AM)
instead of processing "sat" you would interpret as "tat"??
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:20:33 AM)
dr berlin in new orleans did an interesting demo of the effect of time for me when i was down there. he showed how by truncating part of the sound of /d/ i would hear /th/ or /z/... he would still hear /d/ very plainly
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:21:01 AM)
dr j: sometimes i can figure out what consonants have been said by getting the change in the vowel they accompany
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:22:17 AM)
Debbie, yes....exactly. For example, much of the work I have done has been with kids with hearing loss and deafness. They can NOT hear /s/ as it is too high a frequency for them. Thus, they can not hear the differences in possessives and plurals as these language factors relate to the presence or absence of /s/. But, there is a time pause or for them a "lack of sound" for a longer period of time (in milliseconds that's 1/1,000 sec) when a person says "This is Black Hat" vs. "This is Black's Hat" or a better example but, I think you go the message...I hope.
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:23:24 AM)
or listening for the break that distinguishes "section" from "session"
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:23:34 AM)
For example, if we wrote in time......"this is black hat" vs. "this is black hat" the missing /s/ is heard as a longer time span between the /k/ of black and the /h/ of hat (for a person with a hearing loss, this is a bad example because of the /k/ and /h/, but I hope you can get the idea).
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 9:24:05 AM)
ok....i get the idea so far...
cj (ID=29) (Apr 4, 2000 9:24:12 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart)
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:24:17 AM)
wb cj
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:24:22 AM)
Marge....yes, or "look out the door" (see what's out side) vs. "look out the door" (watch out or you'll bump into the door.)
cj (ID=29) (Apr 4, 2000 9:24:27 AM)
sorry computer prob.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:24:36 AM)
Welcome back cj
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 9:24:36 AM)
welcome back cj
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:24:59 AM)
cj....it's those gremlins ;-) :-)
cj (ID=29) (Apr 4, 2000 9:25:48 AM)
drt. j I know you replied to my q re. ffw but I did not have a chance to read your reply before the gremlins got to my screen!
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 9:26:22 AM)
let me see if ican repost his reply for you cj..just a sec
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:26:26 AM)
So, since we are onto models or theories of CAPD.......let's continue on this trend. One factor or model or theory (this is probably best described as the Scientific Learning Model of Paula Tallal and Mike Merznich and their associates) is that Language is based on Auditory processing which is based on accurate temporal processing.
cj (ID=29) (Apr 4, 2000 9:26:38 AM)
thenk youso much :)
debbie (ID=22) (Apr 4, 2000 9:26:56 AM)
i'll send to you privately...let me get it from the transcipt
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:26:59 AM)
Well, cj, I hope what I just posted will be helpful as well.
cj (ID=29) (Apr 4, 2000 9:27:19 AM)
thanks dr. j and debbie
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:28:02 AM)
gremlins attacked again, apparently!
cj (ID=30) (Apr 4, 2000 9:28:08 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart)
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:28:26 AM)
(gives cj a big spray can of Gremlin-B-Gone)
cj (ID=30) (Apr 4, 2000 9:28:31 AM)
hopefully now I am here to stay
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:28:43 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart)
cj (ID=30) (Apr 4, 2000 9:28:51 AM)
thank you debbie
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:28:52 AM)
Now......to continue. IF you take the approach that the problem in auditory processing or CAPD is a disorder in temporal processing, then, you have to be sure that the testing you do is looking at this factor in a variety of ways. What is most interesting is that the criteria for having a child go into FFWD has NOTHING to do with poor performance on tests of auditory temporal processing. THe criteria is language based.....often the only CAPD testing is speech-in-noise (which has nothing to do with temporal processing factors).
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:28:59 AM)
oops! my fault....did you get that cj?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:29:23 AM)
Hands cj some sticky gum to keep him here ;-) :-)
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:30:07 AM)
BTW, if anyone wants to review some of the other models we have discussed in past chats, they are archived......right Debbie?
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:30:17 AM)
dr j.--could you explain temperol processing--I am so ignorant in this area!
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:30:43 AM)
dr j: any chance those language tests have the temporal factors built into them somehow? hard to see how tallal & merzenich can get away with this, from an evidentiary point of view
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:30:45 AM)
yes they are dr j.......cj this chat transcript will be posted also in case you missed anyother posts by dr j
cj (ID=30) (Apr 4, 2000 9:31:18 AM)
got that debbie thanks
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:31:32 AM)
OK, so, we have looked at temporal processing as a component (in my approach/model to CAPD, as well as in other models) or as the sole factor (in the Tallal, Merznich, et al approach) to CAPD. But, not all professionals follow or even include any testing of temporal processing in their CAPD testing.
cj (ID=30) (Apr 4, 2000 9:32:19 AM)
what temporal processing might be included in capd testing
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:32:33 AM)
oops I spelled temporal incorrect
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:32:55 AM)
ncz......If you check the archives of this chat, I've described temporal processing, but, in brief, it is how we process (what ever you define that to be) auditory information in time....and, remember, auditory stimuli are time locked, they exsit ONLY for a brief moment in time.
cj (ID=30) (Apr 4, 2000 9:33:59 AM)
i meant what temp. processing tests might be included in capd testing
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:34:02 AM)
Dr J does each audiolgoist who tests for CAPD follow a certain model or do some aud use general tests without prescribing to a certain model?
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:36:38 AM)
i have serious reservations as to whether many audiologists even follow a coherent model of capd... tendency seems to be more along the lines of "i've got this test ... let's throw it at 'em and see what happens"... no doubt that is in part because of the multiplicity of models, general lack of agreement about what is/isn't capd... but still, for the term to have any validity it can NOT simply be "any result i don't understand is capd"
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:37:08 AM)
Marge, originally, Paula Tallal did research looking at children with reading and language problems vs. children with normal reading and language abilities comparing the following.......She had them make judgements about tonal transitions related to rising and falling frequencies. For example, if two tones were middle C vs. D above middle C (this is an example, not exactly what she did), the identification would be "Two distinct tones rising in pitch." Her variable was the time between the two sounds or the time for the transition from C to D (for this make believe sample). WHat she found was that children with normal language and reading abilities could do this task in 100 msec (that's 100/1,000 sec or 1/10 of a second) with most children in this group able to make these transitional decisions in les than 1/10 of a second. In contrast, the children in the language and reading disabled group needed 1/2 a second or more.
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:38:34 AM)
a sort of timed pitch patterns test, then?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:39:44 AM)
OK, so, what does this mean IF this relates to the real world. If 100msec is 1/10 of a second. We can hear and process 10 speech sound changes per second.....in contrast, children with reading and langauge problems could only handle 2 changes per second. Thus, the theory would say, these children could NOT handle speech at the normally rapid rate of presentation. What supports this conceptually is that for years professionals and teachers have said, "If a child has auditory processing or language problems, speak slower." Also, support comes from the deaf/Hard of hearing (often called d/hoh) population. People with hearing loss understand speech much better when the person talking speaks more slowly.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:40:37 AM)
Marge, yes, a sort of time pitch pattern test. And, the pitch pattern test is still one of the tests in the CAPD battery that looks at temporal processing because of it looking at auditory (non-verbal) patterns.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:40:57 AM)
.oO(pushing the scrolling up again) :-)
cj (ID=30) (Apr 4, 2000 9:41:02 AM)
I believe the CELF test is used as a pre and post measure of language for therapy using ffw. Does the celf identify a candidate for ffw, and how?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:41:43 AM)
What you should all know is that we have tests of auditory temporal processing available in the CAPD battery. Not all professionals use them. These tests include the following.....
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:42:42 AM)
dr j...i hope this question isnt' going too far off on a tangent...one thing that has puzzled me regarding Sarah's tests is that although her reading speed and accuracy score low..her comprehension is average...is it that she is picking up cues from the context of the passage and not actually processing the words? Would this type of example be related to temporal processing?
cj (ID=30) (Apr 4, 2000 9:42:48 AM)
If the pitch pattern test is normal then does that mean ffw would not be benificial?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:42:50 AM)
Pitch or Frequency Patterns, Duration patterns, Auditory Fusion Test-Revised (AFT-R), Compressed Speech (usually 60% and 30%, but it is the 60% that reveals problems as many people with auditory processing problems can do the 30%)
Ammy (ID=24) (Apr 4, 2000 9:44:41 AM)
I must leave now, I have to get my son off to school. I hope to visit with you again. I have lots of questions about academic settings. Good Bye. Ammy
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:44:55 AM)
bye bye Ammy
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:45:17 AM)
Debbie, if you remember, I said that according to MY MODEL or approach to CAPD, the processing is conceptual.......Thus, many children with decoding problems have excellent conceptualization abilities. Thus, they use every possible cue to figure out what they can't perceive. Thus, what may be going on with Sarah is that she has excellent conceptualization or conceptual processes that she employs to compensate for problems in perceptual processing. Therefore, remediation for her is to strengthen the conceptual strength to it's best abilities and build up and strengthen her perceptual weakness.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:45:29 AM)
Bye Ammy
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:45:39 AM)
by Ammy
cj (ID=30) (Apr 4, 2000 9:45:55 AM)
thank you dr. J I will have to review testing to see if we have done some of the tests for temporal processing .
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:46:34 AM)
speech with reverberation is also temporal processing, right?
cj (ID=30) (Apr 4, 2000 9:47:08 AM)
does the celf help determine the usefullness of ffw?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:47:42 AM)
Based on my last statement to Debbie, using Sarah as an example, this is why I believe it is critical to differentially diagnose the category of CAPD OR the underlying problem with a child presenting with CAPD.
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:47:46 AM)
good question CJ
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:49:02 AM)
cj...my daughter took the celf before and after FFW...it showed areas of weaknesses in her langauge skills...on this basis and other tests we did FFW and then retested with the CELF 5 months later to measure progress
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:49:56 AM)
was there progress? how much?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:51:06 AM)
Marge.....no, speech with reverberation is NOT really temporal processing, although there is a temporal component to it.....it is distorted. For those who don't understand, reverberation is echoing. When speech is presented with reverberation, the problem is that you get the echo, but, the time lapse is such that the words really overlap and do NOT sound like two distinct words (like in the echo) but as a word that is distorted. That is why, Marge, it is not a temporal processing task. What it is is a task involving how well a person can understand distorted speech. It is similar in processing (I believe, but I don't have research to support this.....good topic though for a research project if it's not been done).....listening and understanding reverberated speech seems conceptually to my like listening and understanding filtered speech.
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 9:51:29 AM)
cj--not again
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:51:35 AM)
Debbie, the CELF is a language test and has nothing to do with temporal processing.....see what I am addressing here about FFWD?
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 9:51:58 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart)
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:52:04 AM)
he total language score went from a 85 to a 106
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:52:23 AM)
.oO(My goodness, that sticky gum didn't hold out for too long)
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 9:52:31 AM)
I got disconnected from the chat but at least computer did not crach
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 04, 2000 9:52:33 AM)
(tosses cj ropes, rock anchors, and a harness.. here, catch!!)
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 9:52:48 AM)
LOL
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:53:00 AM)
Dr J,,I understand the CELF is a language test........
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:53:22 AM)
cj, yes, from 85 to 106, but are you aware that the normal range is 85 to 115 thus, what you are describing is variability within a normal range NOT NECESSARILY AN IMPROVEMENT!
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:55:07 AM)
Dr J,,,,,,that is still in a normal range...but it seems as if on the majority of all the tests Sarah is usally at the lowest end of average...isnt it improvement to see one score more toward the middle of the range?
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 9:55:23 AM)
Debbie it is a language test, but a speech therapist wanted to determine if ffw would be useful based on the celf and I do not see the correlation.
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:55:28 AM)
dr j: here is an idea worth spreading around the aud and slp community, i think: when you get blood work done at a lab, they usually print out your values AND the normal range for those values. so even if you don't know your BUN from your O2sat, you still know if you're in the normal range... i wish that aud s and slp s would do this with the scores they report
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 9:56:30 AM)
marge, If you ask they do that. In the schools you do need to ask for this
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:56:42 AM)
cj i considered fast forword based on more than one tests...i looked at sarah's history
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:56:56 AM)
cj: but you should not have to ask, i think... it should be automatic,just like when you get lab work done
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 9:57:01 AM)
(This user has entered CAPD: From the Heart)
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 9:57:11 AM)
hi rose! is this rose cowan from seattle area?
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 9:57:20 AM)
hello everyone
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:57:21 AM)
hi Rose
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 9:57:24 AM)
Debbie , My son does not have Phoenemic awareness probs. or I would jump at it
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:57:29 AM)
cj, you can have my computer if you'd like to see a REAL crash....sorry, inside joke, only Debbie would understand
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 09:57:35 AM)
hi Rose
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 9:57:56 AM)
No, from PA
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 9:58:05 AM)
LOL
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 9:58:47 AM)
My son got a speech and Language eval. yesterday, gets his CAPD testing on Wed. next week
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 9:58:48 AM)
Debbie, Yes, Sarah was at the low end of average and the practice strengthened her to bring her within the and really just above average. But, you have to remember that the shift was in the normal range. Not to say the experience didn't help. It merely strengthened a weakness but DID NOT over come or compensate for a disability.
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 9:58:54 AM)
Marge, I could not agree more, but there is much to be desired what the schools do
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 9:59:49 AM)
has language problems and was recommended for language therapy 1x per week
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 9:59:49 AM)
debbie was all the time and effort worth the results you see?
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:00:47 AM)
Of course school tested him 6 times and told me he wasn't eligible, I can't wait to give them the report
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 10:01:04 AM)
Dr. J do you know if the celf can help determine usefulness of ffw and how?
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 10:01:08 AM)
debbie--has she maintained her progress??
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:01:09 AM)
Dr J, in all honesty I dont see Sarah ever totally overcoming her CAPD,,but the more I can strengthen weak areas and help her compensate for those areas..then she'll be that much further ahead of where she is now. (hope that makes sense)
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:01:49 AM)
My son does have phonetic awarness problems how much does fastword cost?
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 10:02:02 AM)
Marge, related to a comment you said above, YOu've never read one of my reports. I always present the normal ranges for the tests I give and provide the actual score with the standard or percentile scores only.....another important factor you parents need to understand about tests.............age scores, age equivalents, grade equivs or grade scores are meaningless. They tell NOThING regarding how a child is performing on a test. Does any one out there thing they know what it means for a child of 12 years of age to score an age equivalent score of 10-2 years?
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 10:02:23 AM)
Yes that makes sense , Debbie , and that is my inner stuggle, ffw time and effort, and how much further ahead, if at all>
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:03:28 AM)
With all the difficulty my son has with school and completeing homework how would I find time to implement Fastword or any other program
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 10:03:44 AM)
Debbie, that attitude about strengthening areas and learning to use stronger areas is probably true for ALL people with real disabilities. However, many of the kids dx with CAPD and language disorders really have developmental or maturational delays.....they are the ones who probably will "overcome" or "outgrow" the disorder......in may approach/my model, these children still need structured intervention to overcome or outgrow the problems.
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 10:03:46 AM)
dr j: as i understand it, a 12 yr old scoring at 10.2 years means that the scores they obtained would be the same as one would expect from a 10 year old child in the 2nd month of school, which suggests a delay or lag or deficit relative to their 12 yr old peers, whom we would expect to have a median score of 12 yrs.
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:03:50 AM)
YES YES YES! anything I can do to help Sarah compensate is worth it to me! At the same time we did FFW we also got an FM trainer. I dont know if I could pinpoint progress to one or the other....but all I know now is Sarah seems to be blossoming right now....she wants to read,..she wants to write.......8 months ago she use to cry if she had to write sentences..........A month ago she did an author review on the monring announcements for her school.. on video.........to me that's progress!
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 10:03:51 AM)
Most children do FFW in the summer
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 10:03:56 AM)
good point dr. J, I used to laugh at the reporting of months, because it means nothing to me
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 10:04:36 AM)
Rose--how old is your son?
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:05:10 AM)
Especially with 4 children, most of them with special needs that consume my time ( not to mention other outside activities)
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:05:27 AM)
He will be 8 this month
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 10:05:33 AM)
(welcomes rose to the 4-kids club... i have 4 as well :-) )
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 10:05:35 AM)
Good news Debbie, you must be a happy mom:)
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:06:22 AM)
Marge it should be almost 5 but I lost a baby in Jan., will be trying again soon
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 10:06:38 AM)
oh, rose, sooooo sorry abt that!
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 10:06:43 AM)
Marge, good response, close but, no cigar (as the saying goes). What it means is a child of 12 years obtained the SAME RAW SCORE as the children in the 10 years 2 months old age group in the normative sample. It says NOTHING about how the 12 years old child is performing. It merely says he/she obtained the same raw score as a the AVERAGE score obtained by the children in the 10-2 age group in the normative sample. What we DON'T know is what were the range for normal scores for the the 12 years old age group? Did the low end of the normal range of raw scores overlap the 10 years old group so that the 12 years old child was still within the normal range?
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 10:06:45 AM)
I am sorry Rose.
Sam (ID=27) (Apr 4, 2000 10:07:04 AM)
How would the remediation be different for a child scoring poorly on the TAPS and one diagnosed correctly to have CAPD?
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 10:07:26 AM)
dr j: ah, right, i see that
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:08:15 AM)
Thanks Cj it was very unexpected, happened between 4th and fifth month, found out during ultrasound
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:08:34 AM)
and Marge
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:08:54 AM)
Dr J....I know how wrapped up you get in the chats..but I want to remind you of time....=) can't have you late for class...LOL
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 10:09:02 AM)
dr j: for instance, if on the particular test in question, the range of raw scores went from 8.2 to 11.2, a score of 10.2 would not raise an eyebrow. on the other hand, if the range was 12.4 to 12.6, a score of 10.2 WOULD be cause for concern
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:09:15 AM)
baby just died, no reason why but nothing we could do and we will try again
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 10:09:34 AM)
The only meaningful scores are to see how a child of age 12 compares with other children in your normative sample who are age 12. These comparisons are done by STANDARD SCORES, SCALED SCORES, Z-SCORES, PERCENTILE SCORES, STANINES........thus, a child of 12 years obtaining a standard score of (say) 6 and a child of 10-2 obtaining a standard score of 6 performed equally related to their relative age groups.....because Standard Score of 6 = 6 = same.....in this case, 6 is below the norm, so both kids are below the norms for their respective peers.
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 10:10:23 AM)
Thank you debbie,.......AH....right, I have to get back to my office and prepare for my class at 10:30.....or 9:30 based on this office's clock not adjusted for daylight savings time.
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 10:10:51 AM)
thanks dr. j. Hope to join the chat tonight.
cj (ID=32) (Apr 4, 2000 10:10:58 AM)
bye
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 10:11:01 AM)
I hope you all have a great week, see you on the CAPD list, and please come back in two weeks for another chat. If you want to private email me.....jay.lucker@gallaudet.edu
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:11:01 AM)
bye Dr. J sorry we didn't get to chat today
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:11:05 AM)
Have a great day Dr J
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 10:11:06 AM)
Bye for now.
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 10:11:06 AM)
bye dr j... have a good class... do we get ceu's for coming here :-) ??
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:11:44 AM)
didnt mean to rush Dr J off...just now how easy it is to loose track of time here
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 10:11:50 AM)
i need to go too... 2 cups of coffee and no breakfast!!
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:12:12 AM)
Debbie i'm happy to tell you I finally found a place to get my son tested for CAPD
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:12:23 AM)
bye marge
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:12:27 AM)
That's great Rose...where at?
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:12:31 AM)
bye Marge!
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 10:12:41 AM)
Marge......For $5000 I'll send you a piece of paper stating you get 1.0CEU's....and I'll be able to retire if more people do the same....:-) ;-) :-)
dr.j (ID=23) (Apr 4, 2000 10:12:43 AM)
bye
Marge (ID=25) (Apr 4, 2000 10:12:56 AM)
haha re: dr j's remark!
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:12:56 AM)
It's called the NE Speech and Hearing center
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:13:33 AM)
when is the eval scheduled?
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:14:11 AM)
I had first called Dr. Maxine Yound who was recommended here but she was for and didn't take my insurance
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:14:36 AM)
next wed., he already had a speech and language eval. yesterday
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:14:43 AM)
Im familiar with Maxine Young..she has a very good reputation
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:14:46 AM)
far i meant
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:15:04 AM)
How long will it take you to get results?
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:15:26 AM)
she had recommended childrens hospital but they didn't return my call until after I had sceduled at the other place
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:15:41 AM)
Im trying to get sarah scheduled for a re-evaluation...
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 10:16:04 AM)
debbie --how old is your daughter
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:16:15 AM)
she is 8...will be 9 in july
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:16:19 AM)
Well I should have the speech and language report soon, I do know he has language problems and is being recommended for therapy 1x per week
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:16:46 AM)
Rose,...at least you are getting the answers finally......im happy for you!
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:17:20 AM)
It seems as if the more I learn about CAPD the more confused I become sometimes......
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:17:25 AM)
They will let me know something the day of the CAPD testing but the actual report will take a week or more to get
ncz/Texas (ID=26) (Apr 4, 2000 10:17:40 AM)
Good luck Rose--I have to go --but will be back tonight I hope
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:17:56 AM)
goodbye...see you tonight
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:18:34 AM)
It makes me angry that the school wouldn't do anything, I had them test him 6 times in the past three years everytime they said he wasn't eligible for therapy
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:19:16 AM)
I can't wait to take the report to the school, this time I will be demanding therapy
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:19:31 AM)
Debbie is your daughter in a regular classroom
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:19:42 AM)
According to the test the school has done with Sarah she has no processing problems.....I get confused how so many tests can show so many things.........
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:19:46 AM)
yes she is rose
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:20:26 AM)
Recently she did start working with a "pull out" reading program..
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:20:32 AM)
Outside eval indicated that my son does have language processing problems
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:21:04 AM)
I have a dilema right now with my son
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:21:17 AM)
what's the dilema?
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:21:43 AM)
He is currently in a regular 2nd grade class with pullout for reading also (started in Jan)
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:22:29 AM)
School wants him in special ed or for me to hold him back next year( they wanted me to do it this year but I refused)
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:22:48 AM)
we are using the "Soar to Success" reading program..which one are you using?
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:23:30 AM)
Rose, what you have to ask yourself is...........would holding him back benefit him or have him repeat the same frustrating year?
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:23:49 AM)
He is passing 2nd grade and besides language arts grades is getting c's or better( mostly a's and b's)
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:23:53 AM)
My first question to the school on any suggestion is how would this benefit my child.
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:24:07 AM)
Rose...why do they want to hold hmi back then?
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:24:38 AM)
Its my question exactly and I don't feel making things easier with special ed is an answer either, in real life no one makes things easy for you
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:26:03 AM)
They feel with his delayed reading level he has a better chance of catching up if he is held back, besides he is tiny and I think because of this they feel it would be appropriate
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:26:11 AM)
I'm confused Rose..please bare with me.... you son is getting good grades for the most part and the school wants to hold him back a grade?
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:26:24 AM)
a child's size has nothing to do with their achievement
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:26:50 AM)
this bothers me because my son will probably always be tiny and I feel it is important for him to get use to his stature now
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:27:33 AM)
just a moment
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:27:35 AM)
I have seen how it has effected his grandfather and hope my son is better able to deal with being small
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:27:36 AM)
phone call
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:27:39 AM)
sure
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:27:48 AM)
take your time
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:28:57 AM)
while your gone I'll type more information and you can read it when you get back.
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:29:19 AM)
im gong to have to go Rose..im sorry..can i meet you later on to discuss this?
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:29:48 AM)
i forgot im supose to be registering for college today..
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:29:56 AM)
my partner is on the phone reminding me
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:30:44 AM)
sure I'll try to be here tonight what time is the chat?
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:31:41 AM)
By the way I read your mail and I would love to host chats but I have to figure out when I could do it
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:32:10 AM)
Rose I would appreciate the help with the chats...are you gong to be around later on today? or can we meet early tonight?
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:32:17 AM)
my schedule is often irratic and I would want to be dependable
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:32:19 AM)
the chat is 10 EST
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:33:17 AM)
Unless I get called into work I will be on tonight. You can e-mail me if your around later I check mail often my address is mom4xovr@aol.com
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:33:42 AM)
ok.. i will do....i'll add you to my buddy list and look for you!
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:33:52 AM)
i can always meet you here if you let me know your around
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:34:06 AM)
okay you can Im me also
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:34:10 AM)
i'll definitelly be home around 3 cause the kids will be home
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:34:58 AM)
if its nice my kids may want to go out otherwise I will be here then also, good luck today I hope all goes well at registration
debbie (ID=31) (Apr 4, 2000 10:35:22 AM)
se eyou later this afternoon or this evening...have a great day
Rose (ID=33) (Apr 4, 2000 10:35:27 AM)
byefor now
