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Subject: That game with 300 percent by 1000. Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:46:59 +0200 From: Erik Piper To: "'hiciv@geocities.com'" . Hello Civ Player, . I'm not sure if I believe you. I haven't looked at your map yet, but I am a fairly good player and I can't imagine scoring 300% earlier than 1750 (though I play only normal generated and weird-environment maps, not ones I makes, and I play raging hordes). 300 percent means a score of 2500 points on Deity. If we assume 1.5 points per citizen (i.e. aboout 4/7 happy, 2/7 contented, 1/7 angry or specialist) and and 200 points (an amazing amount) from sources other than citizens at that stage, then you would have to have 2500-200 = 2300 / 1.5 = 1533 citizens, i.e. about 100 size-15 cities in the year 1000. I find that hard to swallow. That kind of size on Deity can only come from a "President's Day Sale" (40%+ lux, the rest tax, buy happiness improvements like mad) begun 15 turns earlier with an average size of 5 (assuming an exceptionally good growth rate of 1 citizen per city per 1.5 turns averaged over the **whole** civ, including slow growing cities). . In other words, you apparentliy claim to have had, at the year 1000-[15 turns] = I think 700 a.d. the following things: 95+ cities A Democracy or a very exceptional Republic Caravans for trade routes (needed to reach size 15) An acceptable defensive situation Mike's Chapel and either J.S. Bach or The Oracle A good road/irrigation base and plenty of settlers, but few cities with settler overload Currency, Trade, Republic, Banking, Philosophy, Monotheism, [Theology], Construction, Invention, Democracy, Sanitation, among others. . It sounds like you are full of crap. I challenge you to prove you are telling the truth. If you convince me, I'll be really impressed. . Erik Piper |
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Subject: Re: That game with 300 percent by 1000. Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 06:37:22 +0300 From: Historian To: Erik Piper . Hi, Erik! . > I'm not sure if I believe you. I haven't looked at your map yet... . So look at my map. Then write me please. . Thank you, Historian, hiciv@geocities.com |
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Subject: RE: That game with 300 percent by 1000. Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:56:33 +0200 From: Erik Piper To: Historian . Hello Historian, . I am at work today (yes, on a Sunday), and so I cannot look at your map until after a jazz concert tonight. But I have a relaxed atmosphere and I would be happy to trade mails. So if you can be polite with someone who is doubting you in something so close to your soul, please get in touch with me today. . Your description on the Web page of the map you created gives me some idea of what may have boosted your score -- *rivers*, grasslands, and lakes means nice, big continents (assuming your map, like comp generated maps, only includes rivers on relatively large land masses), so no need to waste production on triremes for massive expansion, and the rivers and lakes ensure no problems with irrigation sources, while the grasslands guarantee no growth problems as with a plains start. . However, as much as all this can make for a *strong* opening, I still don't believe it can make for the equivalent 100 happy size-15 cities and 10 wonders (if I'm counting right) by 1000. . Looking forward to hearing from you, Erik. |
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Subject: Re: That game with 300 percent by 1000. Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 23:55:29 +0300 From: Historian To: Erik Piper . Hello, Erik! . > I am at work today (yes, on a Sunday), and so I cannot look at your map until after a jazz concert tonight. But I have a relaxed atmosphere and I would be happy to trade mails. So if you can be polite with someone who is doubting you in something so close to your soul, please get in touch with me today. . Of course I want to be polite. I beg your pardon if I said something wrong in previous letter. I'm afraid to write wrong words because English is not my native language. So please take this in mind when read my letters. . > Your description on the Web page of the map you created gives me some idea of what may have boosted your score -- *rivers*, grasslands, and lakes means nice, big continents (assuming your map, like comp generated maps, only includes rivers on relatively large land masses), so no need to waste production on triremes for massive expansion, and the rivers and lakes ensure no problems with irrigation sources, while the grasslands guarantee no growth problems as with a plains start. . You are absolutely right about all you said. . > However, as much as all this can make for a *strong* opening, I still don't believe it can make for the equivalent 100 happy size-15 cities and 10 wonders (if I'm counting right) by 1000. . Well, I really have 205 cities with total cities sizes sum - 1266, that gives 1970 scores from citizens. And I have 21 wonders - score 420. And I have conquered one enemy civilization only by that year. . > Looking forward to hearing from you, . So I'm ready for mailing. . BTW, may I use your interesting letters on my site? . Cordially, Historian, hiciv@geocities.com |
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Subject: RE: That game with 300 percent by 1000. Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:07:27 +0200 From: Erik Piper To: Historian . Hello, . I've seen the map and I still don't believe you. Tell me more. |
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Subject: RE: That game with 300 percent by 1000. Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:13:49 +0200 From: Erik Piper To: "'Historian'" . Dear Historian, . I should be more specific: I would believe you if your score was two or three times higher than I could ever achieve. But I don't see anything in the game of Civ, even when playing on a "heavenly" map like the one you show, that could lead to a position ten times higher than I could ever achieve. Maybe I am too arrogant, but then I want to know what technique I am missing. Hell, I don't see how you could even tame the riot factor on such a high population in 1000. . Erik Piper. |
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Subject: Re: That game with 300 percent by 1000. Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 06:27:33 +0300 From: Historian To: Erik Piper . Hi, Erik! . > I should be more specific: I would believe you if your score was two or three times higher than I could ever achieve. . What score do YOU achive? Thank you, Historian, hiciv@geocities.com |
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Subject: RE: That game with 300 percent by 1000. Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:41:49 +0200 From: Erik Piper To: "'Historian'" . Hello, Historian!. . First I would like to apologize a bit for my strong tone in these messages. It's nothing against you. It's just that I am upset, as a Civ fanatic, to see (score) statements that don't seem to make sense. True, there are some other positive factors for your game that I didn't know before checking the map: . *the "hut factor" (human players do really well on maps with large land mass because they find lots of huts, and often huts with units, making it easier to find more huts or to make early attacks on a neighbor) *the "expansion factor" (humans do exceptionally well on maps with very high land mass because they expand well). In the case of your game, the expansion factor was multiplied by the no-barbarians setting -- you knew you did not have to prepare for completely unexpected attacks * the "snowball factor" (a sufficiently strong start eliminates the defense problems and harrassment from neighbors, and this strengthens your middle; in the better case, which you are claiming to have had, a strong start also gives the possibility of eliminating a neighbor, thus increasing space for expansion and pace of expansion, etc. * the "river factor" (rivers aid hyperexpansion by making it possible to NOT build roads at first, but only found new cities; they also increase the "hut factor" by aiding exploration and the "snowball factor" in some cases by easing early conquest). . It still doesn't make sense because 1000 a.d. is 1000 a.d. and there's just doesn't seem to be enough turns by that point to found that many cities and pump them up that big. The settler-turns needed for irrigate would slow down the founding of cities too much. . To achieve that, you would also have had to do at least some of the following things: - build or capture Hanging Gardens before the riot factor created too many auto-unhappy cities - build Mike's Chapel before the riot factor created too many auto-unhappy cities - build or capture Pyramids, needed in order to create an average city size of six while apparently irrigating very little - set up a democracy, maybe through SoL, needed in order to get 1.55 points per citizen; apply at least 40% luxuries - build countless martial law units, countless settlers, countless caravans, and quite a few attacking units, *all at the same time* . Maybe it's true. But it's hard to believe. In any case, feel free to use my letters on your site -- I would be a coward to write such strong words and then refuse. . Enthusiastically, Erik |
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Subject: Re: That game with 300 percent by 1000. Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 21:15:20 +0300 From: Historian To: Erik Piper . Hey, Erik! . One idea came to me - did you download and look at my MAP file - "history.mp" only? Or you seen my SAV file for year AD 1000? . Thank you, Historian, hiciv@geocities.com |
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Subject: RE: That game with 300 percent by 1000. Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:33:40 +0200 From: Erik Piper To: "'Historian'" . Hello Historian, . I do not see your SAV file on the site. . Erik |
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Subject: Re: That game with 300 percent by 1000. Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 06:57:32 +0300 From: Historian To: Erik Piper . Hello, Erik! . > I do not see your SAV file on the site. . O, God! I thought You meet my info about 304 percents in the Hall of Fame at other site... And I could not understand you answers because. . So come to Stewart Spink's site - http://www.spink.force9.co.uk There are HoF - the best (as I think) in the Internet. You can download SAV from that page. Then mail me. . Cordially, Historian, hiciv@geocities.com |
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