Barely anyone knows my webpage exist, and already I have a huge email debate from someone that that doesn't like it. This woman emailed me back on MAy 5 2001 to try to convince me that I was wrong about the bible. Unfortunately, she have failed to do that, so I still remain an atheist. Anyway, I will put the email debate right on this webpage. The christian's comments are in yellow. My comments and responses are in white.
I have been thinking a lot about your site lately, and just wanted to drop you a quick email and point out a couple of things. I looked over your site quickly, only looking into the interesting links because time was short. I do want to point out, and just as your disclaimer says on page one...this is not to offend, but may just the same, that you repeatedly brought up how you hate those Christians who are getting rich by misleading the public. I have to say that if your claims are true about those individuals that I would join you in your distain.
***As I stated in the first email, all the talk about the people that are
doing nothing but taking peoples money. I know you mentioned Falwell, I will add Baker to the list. I didn't quote you because it seemed like a very easy, if not required assumption to make from what I read on your site. If this is not one of your beliefs, it is one of my, and I will change my implication to say that just as you dislike Falwell, etc for being a crook, so the bible speaks against all those that mislead people in any manor, and even warns us about those people. (Mt 7:15 false phrophets come, Mt 19:18 thou shalt no bear false witness, Mt 24:11 many false prophets shall.., Mt 24:24, Mk 10:19 do not steal, do not bear false witness,Luke 18:20,Mk 14:56,
Rom 13:9, 2 Pt 2:1) This is not a complete list but I think you get the point.
<"font color="white">Thank you for you support if you think I am right, (Which I am) but please from now on, try to make time to look at everything that is on my site if you can.
You seem to say that there is nothing quite as bad as someone misleading others, and may I say that you are pretty close to scriptural in that belief.>>
What am I saying exactly on my webpage that I am misleading people?
You have taken more scripture out of context than any site I have seen in awhile. This shows either a purposeful attempt to warp the Bible and meaning to mislead others or a severe lack of understanding. In the same way you deplore Falwell and others, you are guilty of mislead the public by claiming to know what your talking about when you quote the bible.
Of course I have to read verses out of the bible, out of context, to show you and others what I am talking about when I disagree with the bible. Also, I am in no way twisting anything that the bible is saying. The bible does say that "Thou shalt not kill" in on place and in another "God commanded the destruction of a nation full of men women children and animals (Joshua 6:21 as a example). This sounds like a contradiction to me. This is in the bible, all you have to do is look for them.
I only bring this to your attention because there actually are valid arguments against belief in the Bible, ones that deserve a scholarly debate; however the things you bring up, God teaching Cannibalism or Jesus having masturbated, are so silly that a child with any bible knowledge could see the error in your statements.
Not everything in the bible is considered a "valid argument". If christians have to argue about what a verse means in the bible, then give me one good reason why I should based my life on a book that no one understands. Also, the bible verse about cannibalism. The bible verse didn't say anything about "God" ordering this. My Censored Bible Verse section of the page was stating bible verse that seemed disgusting for anyone with taste and for children to read. I was stating that why is it that most christians doesn't want their kids to read playboy magazines and watch violent movies and tv shows, but yet they want their kids to read the bible and find stories like Noah's daughters got him drunk and had sex with him. That is all I'm saying.
I know many people who call themselves 'Christians' and do not understand this: Christianity is a relationship not a religion! I know that sounds weird but let me explain. People have gotten it into their brains that they must meet the God quota to get into Heaven. Go to Church, don't work on Sundays, give to the Church, etc., and God will honor them and let them into heaven. That is not what the bible says, Jesus said He wants to be the Lord of your life, that He loves you and wants a relationship with you.
Christianity maybe a relationship to you (which is worthless to anyone but you), but to most people, it is a religion. If everyone have there own definition of the word "christianity" then maybe you telling me what christianity really is, before you try to tell me that I am inteperting the religion and the bible in a bad way isn't going to work. Also, by the way, the bible does say that you must obey god by doing things like go to church, don't work on Sundays (Or the the Sabbath day), give to the church etc. Not to accuse you of anything, but it sounds like to me that it is you that is taking the bible verses out of context and twisting them around not me.
There is a plethora of information out that answers 99% of your arguments. Why don't you focus your site on that 1% of questions without good answers. As you no doubt understand; knowing only one side of the debate is really not a good practice.
If there is a plethora of info. out there that answer almost 100% of my arguments, then I would not of had posted them on my site. As a matter of fact, I would be a christian again instead of a atheist by now. However, that doesn't seem to be the case now is it? I know some of the best bible scholars that think that they know everything about the bible and what not, but when I ask them questions that virutally stump them, they haven't have a clue on what I am talking about.
I hope you don't find this email offensive and get angry about it.
I don't find your email offensive, I just think that you need to
read all of my links on my webpage before you judge it that's all.
P.S. Sorry I forgot one thing. You are writing your reasons to have morals and not believe in God, and I don't know what you have heard from other 'Christians' but I have a little bit to add. It is wrong for anyone to imply that you or anybody else would not have any morals without believing in the God of the Bible. The Bible tells us that God has written His law in our hearts, and that is why all of us have a conscience.
Thanks for implying that. However, do you have claims to back up your info?
Here is a second email that I got from "Wags" at aiki_jitus @yahoo.com on May 8, 2001 at 7:00 in the morning.
Actually, I don't see your point at all. According to the religious scriptures you based your life on called the bible, even though it says that "Thou shou not lie" and "Thou Shalt not Steal" it also says that God hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all the prophets and had the nerve enough to speak evil concerning this (I Kings 22:23) and he spoiled (plundered) the egyptians (Exodus 3:22). As far as I'm concerned, people like Falwell is doing exactly what the bible is telling them to do, and that makes me sick to my stomach.
Your right it does sound like a contradiction! However, we are talking about
God...not man. The same God that created us, and layed out punishment for sin.(Romans 6:23, For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal
life in Christ Jesus our Lord.) One of the wonderful and convincing things about the Bible is that the writers don't change what actually happened to make it fit or sound
sweet and warm. Any historian will tell you this lends much weight to the overall integrity of the historical document. The writers lay down what happened as they knew it. Just as the writer tells about LOT's daughters seducing him in order to keep the family lineage going on. The Bible doesn't hide
these facts like most books would
First off, what big of a difference does it make if we are talking about a god or a man or anything else human or non-human? If you are implying that this god you believe in is a perfect being, according to the bible, he though he made a mistake when he put mankind on this planet and they turned on him (which is his fault because he created man to be capable of both good and evil). Any perfect being would not of have thought something like that to begin with. As a matter of fact, a perfect being that have to create anything period is not really a "perfect" being at all, because when something is perfect, it is complete, it need not to do anything else. Second, how do you know that the writers of the bible isn't changing any of the stories in them. As a matter of fact, how do you know that anything in the bible is true period? Where you there when those events happened? Do you have witnesses that saw these events. Maybe someone made all that stuff up just to brainwash people and to control people. There are no evidence to back up the claim of anything that the bible says. I sure in hell would be happy to believe it if I saw bushes talking, people turning into pillars of salt, people walking on water, and a virgin getting pregnant without having sex with a man.
Anywhere in the story of Lot do you see a 'and God saw it was good?' or perhaps a
'God told the daughters of Lot to get him drunk and seduce him?' No you don't.
....and I didn't say that god told the daughters to get Lot drunk and have sex with them now did I? I did stated that bible verse on my webpage exactly how I saw it in the bible. Once again, if you take the time to read my whole webpage, instead of skimming through it and/or missing some other stories on there you would know what I'm talking about.
The Bible tells us of the evil of S and G and that God didn't just wipe it out, He looked for any that would still look to Him. Anyone faithful!
(Even Lot who we see later is really no picture of Godly virtue) God goes out
of His way to save Lot and his family and we are even given a picture of the moral depravity of S and G when the angels go into the city to get Lot and his family.
So in other words, this god have this sort of "You are either with me or against me" attitude, is that it? And if you are against him, he will destroy you. WOW! Then I guess the "free Will" theory that I keep hearing from most christians about their god doesn't work then does it?
Now what I said about you taking things out of context...compare your story
or
claims about Lot and what I explained to you. You pull out just what you want to
try and show a negetive side to the Bible. I took the story and explained exactly by
what it said in the story. Your style is nothing less than misleading when we see God
does not say anything about agreeing with the daughters!
State where I said that this god allowed lots daughters to get him
drunk and have sex with him please? Like I keep telling you over and over again, I stated the bible verse right out of the bible, it does say that lot's daughter got him drunk without him knowing about it and that god had nothing to do with this and that is what I put on my site. Like I keep telling you over and over again, please take the time to read all of my opinions on my webpage please.
Because what can your children learn from Playboy? Mommy, do my breasts need to be that big to be pretty, or daddy is this how all women are supposed to
look. You can see everywhere in our society the impact of these things on our children. Do you really need me to point out the lack of modesty in our youth?
......and how is it exactly that the bible isn't any different than reading playboy magazines or watching violent movies and tv show, etc. Many people have based their violent ways on the bible. That is why we have people like the Klu Klux Klan, Jerry Falwell, Controlling men that treat their women like slaves, etc. Not everything in the entertainment industry is bad for everyone. For instance, movies like "Saving Private Ryan" and "The Thin Red Line" isn't about mindless war violence, it is about an example of what happen in World Wars that existed decades ago. By the way, just so you know, I had heard children raised by christian parents asked questions of the bible like, "why do we need to know about some girls boobs growing in the song Of Solomn?" Thank you very much.
Can you honestly tell me that you think these things build a child up, and make them feel good about themselves? As for violence on TV and the likes, its a fact that what you put in your head is what you will be. You've heard the saying "Garbage in garbage out" well it more than applies to your mind. Look at the violence in our schools
and on our streets. Look at all the over flowing prisons, and road rage cases.
Again I ask you, how is reading the bible and believing in what you believe is going to help all of this? The old saying "Garbage in, Garbage out" should also apply to the bible as well. I witness christians beating the shit out people just for wearing a Marliyn Manson t-shirt. I hear stories that a anti-abortionist that is a christian killed 3 abortion doctors because he claims that they are violating gods rule of thou shalt not kill. I fail to see how the bible or being a christian is is going to help stop school violence, crimes, etc. when it virtually says the same stuff in it, especially if it supports it even more than it opposes it.
Proverbs
tells us to bring up a child in the ways of the Lord, and when he is old he will
not depart from it. These sorts of things bring families together because mommy
and daddy actually spend time talking to their children, instead of allowing TV
and school/government to raise their children.
So in other words, people who raised their kids through the bible
have morals and can never do any wrong, but if you raise them another way (without the bible or believing in god or jesus) then that person is a troublemaker right? Sorry buddy, but that doesn't make one hell of a sense to me. Like I say, I've seen christians that beat up people just for wearing a Marilyn Mason T-shirt, so maybe your religion or belief system doesn't work for everyone after all.
Show me a place that the Bible says you must do to church!
You know, you just proved to me that you are showing me your
ignorance. I'm not being rude, but you are suppose to know this, not me. You are the one that is basing your life on this book called the bible not me. However, since you aren't man (or women) to look up the verse yourself, then here it is. Eve though the bible doesn't right up front say that you must go to church it does state the consequences of what happen if you don't for example
Judg 21:10 NRSV) So the congregation sent twelve thousand soldiers there and commanded them, "Go, put the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead to the sword, including the women and the little ones.
and
1 Cor 14:34 NRSV) women should be silent in the churches. For they are not
permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says.
Here is a site that will answer any theological question you have: www.rzim.com
Any Christian book store should carry "Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible" by
John W. Haley
Plus "evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowel These are just a few of the hundreds of volumes defending the Bibles claims.
So, instead of trying to explain why the bible in your views is acceptalbe, you choose to refer me to some webpage from some people that 1.)) I (and others) can easily debunk their arguments, 2.) they might have a different opinion about the bible that doesn't match yours. Great reasoning skill you got their buddy.
So far, I debunk almost all of your arguments and claims that you think that believing in a god or a Jesus and reading the bible would help everyone. I'm sorry, but you'll have to do better than that.
Here is the third email that I have recieved from wags at aiki_jitsu@yahoo.com on May 23, 2001. It have take her that long to email me back with a response. OH BOY!
aiki_jitsu@yahoo.com (wags) writes:
Hello again. I'm sorry this has taken so long, but it really does fall at the bottom of my priorities list. Plus, taking a little time to think about what you have written gives me time to really try to understand what you are saying, and not what I want you to say.>
If this email debate is not the highest priority on your list, then why even start this battle to begin with? Also, what is this it that you don't understand? I've told you that I do not agree with your religion and gave you reasons why. Then you have tried to make me say want you want me to say by bringing up comments that doesn't have anything to do with the topic of this subject.
It's always important to understand something fully before you start tearing it apart. Take that for what it's worth.
My sentiments exactly. That is why I keep telling you to read all of my webpage before you write me saying that there is something on their that is not.
I am not going to waste my time or yours rebutting your comments, and please don't be so arrogant as to think I couldn't, I just see that this emailing will go on forever with very little effect.
...and yet you have wasted my time and yours by doing this. I've could of told you this from the start, but since you are the one that insisted that we must have this email debate, I couldn't resist.
I would like to talk about one thing though; I don't think you really understand what Christianity is, although you purport to, and I would like to explain it to you if you would allow me to.
I have understand and read up on christianity, and I do not like it. Plain and simple. It doesn't work for me. What is there to explain about eactly? Before you get all upset and start thinking how wrong I am STOP, and think about it...your 21, you have not figured out all of life's mysteries. I know people who have studied the faith their whole lives and still have things they don't really understand about it.
I am not upset, I just don't understand why you would think that christianity would work for me or anyone else that do not agree with it. I am 21 y.o. I am a fully grown adult. I know what is best for me and what is not. I do not need to know all of life's mysteries to figure out that the bible, and the christian religion isn't for me. All I need is some common evidence and experience. Their are people as old as 50 years old who finds religions such as this to be stupid and arrogant and they never had experience certain things in life before. I fail to see your point in why I need to know "life's mysteries" to understand christianity.
You talked about some guy you knew that claimed to be a Christian, but yet he beat up some kid with a Marilyn Manson T-shirt on.
I don't think I said that he "claimed" to be a christian. He is a christian. If I did say that then my apologies for the bad use of words and grammar.
Why does it matter if he claims to be a Christian? You claim to have been a Christian, yet now you are not.
Actually your right. It shouldn't matter to me, but if this if how some christians treat other people that are non-christians, then maybe this is just one of my reasons why I do not agree with christianity at all. By the way, why does it matter to you if you claim that those that are not in your belief system goes around and do things like school shootings, hate crimes, etc.? You claim to be a christian and believe that everyone should read the bible, even though it have virtually the same violence in them as some movies, video games, etc.
On your web site (common Christian Arguments section) you said that you resent people saying you were never really a Christian. I won't make a judgment on that because frankly there really is no way for me to know.
...and that is why I do not appreciate people trying to tell me that I wasn't a christian back then when they don't have any evidence that I was or wasn't.
However, the question is...did you miraculously change when you became a Christian? Were you visibly different to anyone around you? Did you all of a sudden stop your evil ways, and walk in total righteousness? How about all your problems, did they just disappear when you surrendered your life to Christ? Did you lose the urge to drink, smoke, and party? I think not! Really the only difference should have been inside your heart and mind.
First off, no I didn't experience any changes back when I was a christian. I really didn't felt any different. Second, I don't appreciate you asking me questions such as the ones above. Just for the record, I have never smoke, or drink alcoholic beverages. I have seen some christians that do smoke, drink, do drugs and steal, limit other people free will, etc just because they follow the bible verse that tells them too. I don't need the bible to stop doing all those things. Third, I have seen other religions that are non-christians and other things that is non-religious period say the same thing such as "salvation" and "Stop sinning" and some of these religions and non-religions stuff came out before christianity even reared it's ugly head. It worked for some people and it don't for others What is it exactly about christianity that makes it more special than anything else on this planet exactly?
You see, Jesus doesn't take all these things from us, because we need to continually seek Him, leaning all our weight on Him, because He wants to bare our burdens. He wants to be so close to us in a relationship, that He will be your first love. The whole thing is just that...you developing your relationship with Christ. Every time MAN gets involved he blows it though. Churches say you must this and you must that, and they water down a simple concept with religion. Read about what Jesus had to say about religion in the new testament. He hated empty religion, and slammed the Pharisees every chance he got. I know of no other religion that doesn't make you change prior to being accepted into it. Christ takes you where you are at...just the way you are...hopeless, helpless, disillusioned, demoralized, etc.>>
Number one, why would I have a relationship with a mythological character? Number two, according to the religious scriptures that you read (the bible of course), Jesus wanted to turn man against each other (see Matthew 10:34 as an example), he attached merchants with whips, and did other horrible things to anyone if they didn't follow him. Even if the guy did exist, why the hell would I have a relationship with someone like this? To add on to the story, the myth character Jesus Christ is a copy cat of other myth characters from other religions and mythologies like Budda from the Buddhist religion and Krishna from the Hindu religion. These religions came about some year before christianity. What is it exactly so special about this Christ character then? Based on this conversation the hopeless, helpless, disillusional, and immoralized...etc would be you.
Please don't write me back until you've HONESTLY thought about the things I wrote. If you really think about these things, the answers to many of the problems you have with the Bible and Christians are answered honestly in here.
I have honestly thought about Christianity, and I don't like it, period. Have you thought about anything that I wrote? The obvious answer is NO! I don't see any answers in your email essay that would give me any reason to change my mind about christianity.
About that Comment on not emailing you anymore, fine! This will be the last email you will recieve from me. You are the one that started this war and you can't take what you have dish out. First off, you accused me of twisting bible verse (which I did not), and telling me that I put something on my webpage that is not there (the noah and Lot stories that you brought up in your second email for instance). Second, you are not even at the very least, using your own knowledge to disprove my opinions on my webpage, you are following what a book (the bible) is telling you instead. I would think that even if this god and Jesus does exist, they would want you to use your own mind instead of theirs. Third, you accuse me of being just like Falwell and Barker because you think that I am trying to change some christians into changing their religion (which I am not), but yet, you are the one that is emailing me and telling that I should convert to christianity or I am in big trouble, without any care in the world about my opinions or any one elses. It sounds like to me that it is you that are acting like Falwell, not me. Last, based on this email, I think that you want people to respect your belief, but yet you can't seem to respect someone esle without trying to change them. Maybe the bible isn't what it appears to be at all, especially since we don't know any of "life's mysteries" as you said before.
Have a Nice Day :-)
