JOHN K SAMSON
in Copenhagen 1998
 

Henrik: One of your favourite poems is called "September 1, 1939", by Wystan Hugh Auden. What do you make out of it? What does it mean to you?
John: It means a lot to me, I think it was written at a very important time, september 1 1939 just before World War II, I mean it was a very dark time for Europe, and for the world. Auden had throughout the 1920s and 30s been grappling with politics and how writing fit politics. And I guess, just that sentiment that the world is evil but that there are just and good people in it is really important to me because I can be a fairly cynical person, but beneath that I have a lot of hope. And I think that this poem- the second last stanza is really good too: 

"All I have is a voice To undo the folded lie The romantic lie in the brain Of the sensual man-in-the-street And the lie of Authority Whose buildings grope the sky: There is no such thing as the State And no one exists alone; Hunger allows no choice To the citizen or the police; We must love one another or die."

And I think that's a very important sentiment. And I think it's an incredibly well-written poem and I love to read W.H. Auden. I didn't go to university but I've taken the advice of a lot of people I've read, that to know one poet really well is really important. I know a lot of W.H. Auden's work. And I think it's important to use, not only to understand the world, to have a different perspective on the world, but also to  have some kind of perspective on the language. A yardstick for the language. So... yea, it's important to me.

Henrik: So are you inspired and/or influenced by his language in your lyrics and writing?
John: Yeah, I think my songs are kind of about the people I care about and the community I live in. And also they're about life under capitalism, the system of capitalism and how it's meant to destroy people - and the only really hope, that I see, is the connection people have with eachother. I think I have that in common with that poem. I think that, why it's one of the most important poems to me is because that's what it all comes down to. The connections we have with eachother are the only things that can save us.
Henrik: One thing that comes to my mind when you talked about being cynical, something I can relate to, is that one of the last barriers within me, for calling myself an anarchist is that I'm very cynical and at times even a misanthrope, which I understand is non-compatible with anarchism - or can you be an anarchist and still be cynical or a misanthrope?
John: Yeah I think you can. I think it's a contradiction but, I think anarchism is about contradictions in a way. Berthold Brecht once said; "In the contradiction lies the hope" so I think that's pretty true too. But yeah, I have trouble...like I identified as an anarchist for a long time and I don't really do that anymore. I think it's because I started thinking more about politics of the street, of my community, likeon a very small scale. And I think the word anarchist can sometimes alienate people that you should be in solidarity with. For instance I think the anarchist movement all over the world is aware of class-issues and understands them really well, better than most movements but still has the problem that most of their movement comes from a middle-class background, it seems to me. At least the young anarchist movement comes from a very middle-class background, like I do! And doesn't have any connections to real working people, the people who are on the frontlines. Real oppressed people. So I think that's a problem.
Henrik: So what is one to do then?
John: I think you have to do what you're suited to do - like we all have a role to play, in making this world a better place.  And I think we all have things that we love to do, things that we can do to help other people. And I think art, making art, writing words, painting, whatever kind of art you make. Just expressing yourself is fundamentally a revolutionary act. I know that sounds corny but it's true. I think being active in your own life with the people you care about...
 

Henrik: You're publishing a book by Ward Churchill which argues against pacifiscm and I thought about discussing it with you. What do you think about pacifism? First of all, I don't presuppose you are pacifist cause you call yourselves the Weakerthan's but I've found that quotation on your record "weak things have power" to be inspiring... I mean when you grew up you were supposed to be strong and aggressive and so on, and this statement I think a lot of people can identify with.
John: Yeah. I think that's definately true. You know I'm a pacifist in my daily life. But I think there's a very important distinction there. Because it's not for me to tell, say the campasinos in Mexico - I'm not gonna go there and say "you guys shouldn't be using guns and violence!" Because they should be using them. Every political situation is unique. And every one of them has different ways of solutions. And I think it's a really middle class, upper class phenomenon -  not to be a pacifist, but to be involved in the organised pacifist movement. And support  say, the struggle in El Salvador or struggles thousands of miles away and not support the struggles in say North America. A good example is the Black Panther Party in the late 60s. The anti-war movement supported civil rights but as soon as the Black Panthers organised and said: "Listen, we're being killed in the streets too, just like the north Vietnamese. We're gonna arm ourselves and defend ourselves." As soon as they did that their support evaporated. So, it's a constant balance-thing for me... It's a very difficult issue, but I can't call myself a pacifist anymore. But that doesn't mean that I don't see strength in our weakness' - I mean, just look at the way men especially are brought up in our society.
Henrik: I believe that often, the most politically correct things or the best things to do are kind of crossover, you know. It's not like pacifist or non-pacifist. And I think that reasoning is applicable not only on pacifism but on most issues and situations - even veganism.
John: Yeah. Pacifism or non-pacifism. I'm neither.
Henrik: Or both...
John: Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's so many different ways of dealing with each situation. And there's so many different movements and cultures and peoples involved. And there's just no way for me- I mean, I think that's a very top-down,  kind of old-school Marxist way of thinking. The intellectuals will tell everyone what to do. That's not how the world works. That's authoritarian. I'm not interested in that.
Henrik: I think it's one of those subjects where the general opinion of people is that one thing is good (pacifism) and the other bad (non-pacifism) - so we're in need of books or reasonings and statements that challenges this bias, or one-sidedness.
John: Well yeah, exactly, the book's very controversial. And it's a challenging book. I've had lots of discussions about it. All these views have to be expressed and we have to think of them.

Henrik: I put the title 'Outgrowing Punk' on this one. What I wanted to talk about is how I came into punk, striving for subversiveness, radicalism as well as creativity and diversity. To find out, along the way, that punk is very conservative, stereotype and that there were maybe more people outside of the punk community that I found interesting. People that are sort of post-punk, or people that are into issues as feminism, leftist politcs etc, kind of punk-related-issues, you know. Can you relate to that or..?
John: Yeah I can. I think I've always thought that, I mean for as long as I've been involved in the punk scene it's been far too closed. Musically and socially. After a while it gets really boring just hanging out with you know, guys your own age. Who have the same opinions as you, listen to the same music as you, who live in the same kind of place as you. That's not healthy. There's a whole world out there and the punk scene has constantly proven unable to make itself more open to other people. Women, minorities and most of the world. It thrives of course on its uniqeness and how not everyone likes it. That's a good thing about it. But the bad side of that, is that it excludes a lot of people. And a lot of forms of expression. So, I dunno. You know, I don't really think about it that much anymore. Because if I do it'll drive me nuts. You know I don't really understand who really listens to The Weakerthan's. I sit in my room and I write songs. And I can't think about who's gonna like them and who's not gonna like them. Or I'll just never gonna write again. But yeah, I know what you mean.

Henrik: This one is kind of related to what we're talking about. I was thinking about doctrins within punk, like diy (do it yourself) and so on. Bands as Fugazi is such an inspiration when they have their principles of only playing all ages shows and never charging more than five dollars for entrance. But they're kind of big and don't have to compromise - I mean, they reach out to so many people anyway. I found myself in a dilemma when my band got this show at a student clubhouse with an age-limit. And most of our friends and people into punk are underage so they couldn't get in to see us. We played and a lot of students got exposed to what we had to say. We talk a lot. Some of them even came up to us and talked, and some said they thought our ideas were interesting, so...
John: Yeah, I see what you mean. It's an interesting question you got. On one hand you don't wanna play a stupid place but the on the other hand you wanna reach more people. Yeah, I mean, that's a decision I've had to face from the beginning of the Weakerthan's. Because we can play, just normal bars... And get away with it.
Henrik: I've heard people diss you because you said you wanted to play clubs, make videos and such stuff. I think that's cool. I mean, like Rage Against the Machine-
John: yeah, exactly... well, different in a little way. Because we did have some interest from other labels. Bigger labels. And even one major label, well at least said they were interested. But we've chosen consistently to do everything ourselves or with people we know, and/or trust. I think that's a really important distinction--
Henrik: yeah, I understand.
John: --but I really admire Rage Against the Machine. I think they've done huge amounts to bring the awareness of Chiapas and conditions there to the world. And other issues too, so... And bands as Consolidated and veganism. I listened to Midnight Oil when I was in Junior High and it was a big deal for me. Really politicized me in a way... Well yeah, we have gotten some flak, some diss' but as I said I just can't worry about it. And also, I don't have any money to loose anymore. I live on very little. Everyone in the band live, below the poverty line. And we can't go on tour and loose money anymore. It's just not possible. So you know... Like for instance on this tour, we played a very very stupid university party. I think it was in Münster, Germany. There were like a thousand people there, just to dance to a DJ and then we played and then they danced to a DJ some more. And those things make me feel bad, it's just terrible. There's no point in doing it, but we needed the money to get to the next place so...
Henrik: At the same time I think... Like I live in a dorm but I'm not the average-student, you know. I hang out with them and they're good people but I'm not so into their parties and their way of life etc. But our show at that clubhouse was one of our best shows. Really tiny place, a floor-show and a lot of people.
John: Yeah... Well, some of our best shows have been in places where no one knew who we were, and there were no real hardcore people there, just normal people--
Henrik: --And they just appreciate what they see.
John: Yeah, exactly, there's no preconceptions about it. And in Canada it's much like that. I think we play to a different crowd that say, Propagandhi does. So I don't know... It's an interesting question. I think about it a lot... But I don't think about some of it a lot too (laughing). Like different parts of it.
Henrik: Yeah, I understand. Like you can't think about what someone else will think about your music when you're writing it. Then you'll become some MTV-band.
John: Yeah. The reverse is that I can try and write Fat Wreckchords pop punk. That would be just as dishonest I guess.

Henrik: I'm a bit in conflict with this anti-compromise-stance within radical movements. Or so-called 'radical' movements. Because I believe that compromise is something good (in a lot of cases) but it is not cool which is the bad thing about it. Like, you always  see these "no compromise"-patches, signs, attitudes etc and I understand that people need those things, I mean as affirmation. I myself need affirmation too. But it becomes such a stereotype and it strikes such deep root. You know military pants, this focus on aggressiveness, violence etc...
John: ...well, it's interesting. I think more and more about the way punk was co-opted you know with Nirvana and Green Day and all that. How it was taken over by the mainstream and the way the punk scene reacted to that, really violently. Got even more exclusive, and paranoid and cliquey. And I think I've come to the point where I'm not really that interested in an alternative culture anymore. I don't want an alternative to the mainstream - I want the destruction of the mainstream (laughing). I think I'm interested in playing and speaking and communicating with people that I wouldn't be able to, if I was just playing punk rock shows.
Henrik: This leads us into the election that we had recently here in Sweden--
John: Yeah, Gudrun the red.
Henrik: Oh my gad, so you've heard of her... I voted even though I don't have much faith in parliamentarism.
John: I do that too. I vote.
Henrik: I can't deny that some of these parties have decent opinions and that if they get enough votes will change things for the better for say people in exposed positions, people in need of care, allowances etc, or for animals for that matter! Like for instance, the environmentalist party (Miljöpartiet) has a pretty decent animal rights program. Some parties will change things for the better through reforms, but they will not solve the root of the problem so to speak.
John: I think it's like we talked about earlier. There's so many different ways of approaching a problem. You have to use so many different methods, have so many different people involved. And that's why I vote. I don't think it's important. I don't think it's gonna change anything, but I might as well. And it's important that people do that but it's also important that there's someone there saying: "I don't vote cause I don't believe in this system." And I think there's a role for both of those people and I think I've just naturally decided that I'm gonna be one of those people who votes. But I totally support those people who don't. And just always remember that my end goal, as most thoughtful people's should be, is that there needs to be revolution. But, revolution comes in a lot of different ways, so... (smiling)

Henrik: I've concluded, from reading your lyrics, that you're quite a nostalgic guy. Is this true?
John: Uhm... I dunno. Nostalgic has a lot of connotations, I guess. No... No, I don't think I am nostalgic.
Henrik: Maybe it's the wrong word. I am thinking about songs like...Gifts! Or maybe not specific songs but lines in some songs. I don't really know what I was aiming at. I believe that it's a nice feeling to think back, remembering stuff but it's also tightly connected to feelings of regret. I often come back to the point where I question myself if I really do all the things that I wanna do. Before I die.
John: Hmmm, yeah. I can relate to that. Definately... I think a lot of my writing is about trying to, in a way tell stories. Other people's stories and my own stories. Tell the stories of the people that I care about. And I think that's a really political thing. I think it's important cause most people's stories don't get told in our mainstream culture. And in our culture at all. So I think it's really important to validate people's stories and lives. Where they are and what they've done. And what they're like. What their hopes are and what my hopes are. Regret is a big part of my writing too. Because I have them. I admit it, you know. I've never understood those people who say: " I have no regrets!" I'm like: "I have regrets every ten minutes!" What the hell. (laughing)
Henrik: I think it has to do with the ideal life that is set for us to live.
John: Yeah - the life that we were meant to inherit, but never seems to add up to what it was supposed to be. And that applies to the lives we wanna create for ourselves too - socially, and politically. Nothing ever seems to work out the way you want it to.

Henrik: Do you have any special plans or goals. Like something you think "this I have gotta do"?
John: I think I'm kinda lucky in that I know what I wanna do - a lot of people don't. Then sometimes I'm still not sure what I wanna do, like practically, like in reality, what I wanna do with my life. But since I was sixteen, seventeen - the thing I've wanted to do is make a record I'm totally happy with. I also started out wanting to be a writer. Write poetry and fiction. But I think I've come to the point where I realise that I don't really have that in me. I think songs are the way I should go.
Henrik: Aren't you happy with Fallow?
John: Oh well, I like it but I can't say this is a great record. I think it's a good record. But I don't think it's the best we can do. I think that's never gonna happen that I'm gonna make a record that I love, unconditionally. But it kind of keeps me going, because it keeps me thinking ahead... And it can be kind of torturous... But I wanna do that - and the things that everyone wants. To connect with other people. And to validate their lives and have your life validated. And try and be happy in some kind of way. Like satisfied. I can't think of any specific goals, besides a great record... 
Henrik: Yeah. Well I think that when you've found something that you like to do then you just wanna-
John: --Yeah, like we were talking the other day, talking about if we can still be doing this in ten years - when we're thirtyfive or something. And I always think like: "Well yeah, of course. I'm gonna be writing songs til I'm dead." And even if I just record them on a cassette-player and give them to my friends - you know, that'll be enough to me, so... 

Henrik: What are your feelings about Winnipeg? Is it your birthplace, did you grow up there? 
John: Yeah, I've lived there all my life. 25 years.
Henrik: I sometimes get the notion that you don't like it. 
John: (laughing) Yeah, I think it's a very love and hate thing. I think it's like the places that everyone comes from. The place you come from is different from any other places in the world. It has all your hopes, like it defines you in some ways. In good and bad ways. The idea of home. What home is and what it means to you. And what community is. Winnipeg is a very interesting city. Really isolated. It's like eight hours from the nearest big city. And there's about half a million people that live there, and it's got the biggest Native American population in North America in a city. One in four of the citizens are Native American. And they are treated very badly. They're almost ghettoized. You know, put in a different community. You never see them and there are tons of social problems. And it's a very poor city. Lots of poverty. And I came from a very well-off middle-class community, suburb. I guess, when I'm angry at Winnipeg I'm angry at the same things that are going on in cities all over the world. Like every city is the same it seems to me. In a few things. Like I've been to Australia, Japan, Europe, United States and Canada - I've spent a lot of time in those places. And it seems to me all over the world, cities are run by the rich, for the rich and the poor of those cities are pretty much treated like slaves to the rich. There are tons of problems and people are alienated and isolated from eachother. And people's desires are frustrated and stomped on. And you know - it makes me angry. And plus, you can feel trapped in the place that you live.
Henrik: Has Anchorless something to do with that?
John: Anchorless has more to do with...It does in a way, but it has more to do... ...that's a very hopeful song for me and I know most people don't see it that way. It's about a family member close to me that died. And who our family had some conflicted feelings about. Who I really never got to know as well as I should have. And who just didn't seem able to express himself all his life. Didn't seem able to show affection and care for other people. And that song is about how I don't wanna end up that way. And how I resolve, like not to be that way. Not follow that pattern. That so many people have set for them. I think so many people are emotionally stunted by the places they live and the people who bring them up. So to a certain extent yeah, you have to leave that behind. You have to say like "I'm starting fresh right here - no bagage." So I'm trying to escape that.

Henrik: Someone, sometime (actually it was you Gail), told me that I should be proud of the place I live in. And I think I am. I like the city I live in, even though I'm sick and tired of it sometimes. I can see the potentials in it. Like how cool it would be if more people would be into some of the things I'm into. If we could have more shows. I have this hope, like when I grow up I could open this cafe and have bands play there, distribute radical books and fanzines and sell vegan food etc.
John: I think being proud of the place you're from is important too. I agree with that. The place you live in, the place you're connected to is where you can do most good, I think. Like you can be active in the community and have strong, longlasting friendships. That's what life's all about. 
Henrik: Most young people wanna move to Stockholm though or some other big city.
John: Life is elsewhere, yeah I know... It's the same in Winnipeg. Everyone wants to move to Vancouver. 
Henrik: To me Winnipeg is so exotic. Perhaps because a lot of the bands and persons I like are from there.
John: Winnipeg has an unnatural number or artists and musicians and stuff. It's strange. I think it's because it's so isolated, it entertains itself. You know, there's tons of bands and people just do it. And there's not much glory. Like in other Canadian cities, Toronto, Vancouver and other places.  In Winnipeg the chances to become a huge superstar is very slim. It's not gonna happen. So I think people are more honest because of that. They just make the art and the music they wanna make, cause they like it. And they're not thinking about how to get on to MTV.

Henrik: The K in your name, is it for Kool? Someone told me so...
John: Yeah! No it's not. (laughing) Was that Sam Smith? I bet it was.
Henrik: Yeah I think so. It was on the propa message board. He also said that you had a sister that was called something on A, something revolutionary?
John: (laughing) My sister's name is Aquilla. It's a very strange name. I always say that though, my answer is always: Oh yeah, 'Kool'. But uh... Nah it stands for Kristjan. It's an icelandic name. My ancestory is icelandic. 
Henrik: Aha. Is that the Samson name then?
John: Yeah. In the late 1800s, a large group of icelanders settled just north of Winnipeg.
Henrik: Have you ever been to Iceland?
John: No. I'm going next year though. With my whole family. We're going for New Years Eve 1999. We're just going for that. It's gonna be great. I can't wait. I'm really looking forward to it. I really wanna go. Have you been there?
Henrik: No. I know people that have been there though. The rumour says it's a great place. I guess it's different cause it's very isolated.

Henrik: A question about Arbeiter Ring and how you run it after the principles of PARECON (participatory economy). Maybe you could tell me what this can mean in practice?
John: Yeah, well it's a very loose collective. It's myself and my friend Todd. We're the only people working on it. Just for the reason that no one else wants to work forty hours for free like we do. Cause we don't make any money. G7 is run in the same way.
Henrik: But they're also small...
John: Yeah, there's only three of them. But you see it really in practice in the cafe, that's downstairs from our offices, called Mondragon. So there's twelve people working there. And I guess what it means is there's no boss, no structure. And everyone shares the rewarding work and the non-rewarding work.
Henrik: And how do you do that?
John: Well, Mondragon has a schedule for two weeks. And they take everything that needs to be done; like taking out the garbage, sweeping the floors, ordering books, ordering food etc. And they kind of gauge it after... you know, if the task is fun or rewarding, or not fun - not rewarding. A one to ten kind of thing. And aim is the get an average of five. You know, you have to take out the garbage,  but you get to order the books. And they try to balance it. What it takes actually, is tons and tons of meetings. It can be very, very difficult. I've been involved in a few collectives over the years. I really love them and I think it's the only way that places should operate, but it's not easy. It's a lot of work.
Henrik: At the same time this way of organising has not been practiced as intensive as what we call the regular way of organising, a top-down hierarchy. 
John: Yeah. When you start doing it, immediately you just have to start throwing out ways you've acted for so long. I think it's really great, but it's hard.
Henrik: And decisions are made through concensus?
John: Yeah, concensus. There's no vote. It has to be concensus. Which is what makes it so difficult. With two people it's pretty easy though. Like me and Todd have known eachother for since we were four or five years old, so we pretty much have the, we know what we like and don't like. The first thing we judge a book on is its political matter. And we both have the same, fairly the same politics and ideals so it isn't really an issue.
Henrik: How does it work? Do you read the whole book before?
John: Oh yeah, yeah. An author sends us an manuscript, we read it and then we say "yeah we wanna publish it." Then we start going through it, editing it, telling them what kind of changes we want. Send it back and forth a whole bunch of times. Then we put it on a computer. We use Apple Computer, Pagemaker layout programs (me too!). We put it in, print it out and do line edits. It takes us a very long time. And then we send it to the printer.
Henrik: Do you think a band could/should be run after PARECON principles?
John: I think it can. I dunno.
Henrik: I mean, in a lot of bands, perhaps bigger bands, there's one person who is very--
John: Yeah. In a creative enterprise like that I think power actually sometimes goes to one person. In The Weakerthan's we split everything equally. Like money-wise. And we all do different jobs that have to be done. I write all the lyrics but there's a lot that goes on besides that. And we all share those jobs so...
Henrik: What I meant was that as an artist, you often have this idea, this feeling, a certain vision about what you want to create. And then you might not wanna compromise.
John: Yeah. It's true. Definately. But the other side of that is that other people can make it so much better. I'm not an incredibly talented musician, guitar player. I'm like, I can get the job done-kind-of-thing. But the people I play with are all very talented musician and they teach me a lot. It really affects the way I write and the way I play. I've always been really lucky in that I've played with really good musicians. Like Propagandhi. They're both fantastic musicians. I learned a lot from them. And I learn a lot from the guys I play with now.

Henrik: I understand that you are very passionate about books and writing - howcome? Maybe you've answered it in some ways already.
John: Yeah... Well, I think in a way, books kind of saved me. Like I've always read a lot. When I was like thirteen, fourteen, fifteen-kind of age - when I felt like I had a choice to make between becoming a professional, being a lawyer or somehting - and becoming something else. What ever the hell it is I am now. Books have really led me somewhere, you know. Just the idea that a book, something that you can hold in your hands, can so dramatically change your life. And I think they're the only thing in this world that is really sacred to me. Like, I almost read religiously. I love books and... (laughing) hmmm, there's nothing better... And I love making them. I just think it's a really noble thing, you know. Books.
Henrik Yeah, it sure is. So what do you read?
John: I read a lot of fiction and poetry. And a lot of political stuff as well. But I read a lot of canadian poetry especially. And some european fiction. I like John Berger a lot. He's really good. Reading sometimes for me is like TV, it's just like, I have to read every night before I go to sleep or I can't get to sleep... So I just read anything really. 

Henrik: Are you aware of the fact that you're using the word hum in four songs on Fallow? 
John: (laughing) Who pointed that out to you?
Henrik: I figured it out myself actually (pat myself on the head).
John: Cause Derek from G7 actually has said that a couple of times. Why do you use that word hum? I dunno... I guess I get hooked on words sometimes. Hum. Hum's a great word. Let's see, what's the word I'm hooked on right now... Highway. I've liked the word highway a lot lately. And I've liked the word home a lot lately. I dunno... You just get a word in your head. Like hum. I dunno... I go through phases. For years it was rain. It just happens. (laughing)