Shipka's Forum Prompt:
Another Presentation Reflection
Before personal computers arrived on the scene, index cards were the preferred method for recording research data and for structuring research papers. Cards allowed an author to move paragraphs around quickly to test different methods of organization. Today, we simply copy, move, and paste paragraphs on the computer screen. Even so there are some professors who still recommend using cards especially when working with large papers (20 pages or more). Do you think the card method of organization is still a worthwhile technique or is this method simply a waste of time and a method whose time has come to be retired when we can move text easily at will? Why or why not?
Posts must be 250 words minimum and be completed by Wed April 26th at 5:00 pm
C. Gatton's Response · W. Chewning's Response · P. Hartman's Response · S. Natvoitz's Response · M. deLauney's Response
D. Wentworth's Response · B. Bauhaus' Response · S. Kibler's Response · E. Sanchez's Response
Y. Martin's Response · E. Piccirillo's Response
I think that the note card is still a useful tool when developing a paper. I remember in my early years of high school using note cards to help me write/organize/format my research projects/papers. I thought it was very useful to have the small space of the cards to jot down notes and it didn’t take long to accumulate an umpteen number of them. For some reason, I didn't find fifty note cards filled with my research note scribble to be as overwhelming as viewing 15-20 pages of notes. I found it useful to number my or color code my note cards into different subcategories. If I decided to use numbers, the 1's would be used for my introduction; these note cards usually contained attention getting information and other information which would lead into the body of my paper. 2's would be used towards the body or meat of my paper. I would usually subdivide the 2's into my points-2A, 2B, and 3C. Sometimes I would color code and other times I would divide the points by 2, 3, and 4 where then I would break each point into even more subcategories. It all depended on how complex or how complex I wanted to get into the contents of the research assignment. I always had a hard time which info I would filter out of my paper because all the information I found was linked to the next bit of information that I had found. Often, my papers would turn into near novels and I simply had to cut text out because the teacher had always assigned a page criteria. Usually, I would still exceed the page limit but I really tried not to veer too far from the teacher’s specifications.
Anyhow---my point is that I think that just because the note card system appears to be outdated when placed against a word processor program, doesn't mean that it isn't just as useful today as it was years ago. I find it interesting to look back on the side notes that were taken in the outside boundaries of notes on my note cards. Also, note cards can be conserved. Word documents can be too, but generally when I'm using my word processor during the researching process, I paste a lot of different information onto a word document and then read through all of the material. I weed out all of the information that I don't want to use and delete it. I don't ever save the stuff that I weed out. Nowadays, unwanted or invalid info to one research paper is just seen as a waste of space, and not as a piece of work that could be saved for future use. With note cards, the information is still there, even if it didn't make it into the contents of my research paper. Now when I first started to use word processor programs, I did save all the notes that I took, no matter if they were tossed in the final cut/revision of my research paper/project or not. As time went by, I spared myself from saving any filtered data/notes and deleted the material altogether.
As technology keeps advancing and the world becomes faster and faster paced, it seems as if society demands fewer steps in processes. We want to find shortcuts to get things done in an efficient manner, but of course that is, nothing can be invaluably lost in the process. We forget to think of all the things besides money that are also valuable in life....
A response to C. Gatton's "Stuck in a Slow Body in This Fast Paced World" by P.C. Paul
This is interesting because the last time I used this method was in the fall of 75’ college Comp 101. I hadn’t used it since. Dr. Carpenter suggested using this method in ENGL 488/688, but for the actual paper but the research data. Entering quotes on index card and copying line citation information. The purpose was similar, for us to swing data around.
Elizabeth and I use a similar method. I create my bibliography, then pull interesting quotes out and enter them linearly in a new MS Word file with their in line citation regardless if I will use them all or not. I print this out. Looking at all the data I try to formulate a question to ask or what direction is the data telling me it wants to be. I do this because half way or three quarter way I find the data is not saying what I think it says and I then have to modify the thesis fitting the data. I then create and outline and begin positioning quotes which support or refute a position, weaving my text around the scholarly text. Virgin territory is completely different. There I have to design the experiment and decide what methods are feasible in scope, time, and cost. This does not come easily but easier as a scientist.
Elizabeth mentioned that she cuts up her text into paragraphs and then restructures the paper to see what structures work better. This is a method Donald Murray suggests in his book, the “Craft of Revision.” I haven’t done this but I am seriously thinking of trying this method because this method was never touched on in our Writing Tutor training. The book was recommended reading but was never assigned.
The card method has also been brought over into digital form but I do not know anyone who has used the programs nor have I ever seen a demonstration of one. In my own opinion I always found the cards to be a waste of time. On the other hand, Elizabeth’s idea sounds similar but is it really similar? I’m not sure but I’m willing to experiment.
One of the things that we read about in preparation for this presentation what the idea that not everyone thinks in the same way (in terms of language). Some people think similarly to how they write and/or speak, while others think more visually. Consider the point about how some of our greatest thinkers have devised inventions or ideas that start from visions -- literally -- in their heads. Sketches, drawings, and other visual re-presentations of complex structures led to the realization of the ideas. Through such drawings and sketches, visual thinkers are able to bring the individual pictures from their minds to their eyes and hands where they can be seen and re-arranged in a context that makes them parts of a bigger picture.
Those of us who think more like we speak or write can do this same thing. When I am pre-writing, for example, I often write down seemingly unrelated words, phrases and ideas onto a sheet of paper in no particular order, circle each one, and draw lines between them to connect ideas and concepts. This is not only a great way to organize thoughts, but also a great way to develop thoughts.
We can use these tools before we know what we think about something. I think our readings support this idea, but we don't often think of writing as an exploration process, but as an expository tool.
Think of all this as a way of learning through writing as opposed to arguing an understood position (or, teaching, for lack of a better word) through writing. We don't always have a full understanding of an issue even if we have a whole of its components in our heads. Sometimes we need to externalize what we know so that we can see it all together and make connections that we hadn't while the information was swimming around in our heads. For example, I doubt that DaVinci knew exactly how his flying machines would work before he started drawing them. He might have had ideas about shape in general, and other thoughts on the mechanics of constructing, but the value of sketching out these ideas is that the externalization of individual components allows one to see how they can come together -- maybe how the shell of an airplane-like machine would be attached to the frame based on separate but connected visions of each individually.
Those of us who can't draw imagines in our heads to such a degree can do the same thing with a written representation of our ideas. I think this is what we did in class today. When Amber and I started our work toward an argument, we made the decision not to use our own pre-conceptions, but to base the development of our argument on the data we were given. We had a whole set of individual components that we knew were related but didn't know exactly how. We did not know the answer to our argument until we started putting these pieces together. In this case, we were given a finite set of variables from which to make choices and arrangements. When it comes to complex questions that we're all faced with in our lives, we're normally not given much of anything other than our questions. Whether we use index cards, drawings, or discussions with others, we can use tools to externalize out thoughts in order to come to our own conclusions, based on our unique perspectives.
Obviously, if we do really understand an issue, this same type of externalization can be used to organize our thoughts in a way that allows us to most-effectively share them with others.
Anyway, I hope I was able to pull all these thoughts together into a big-picture that makes sense to you guys. Let me know what you think!
"Index Cards...Widgets of Paper...What's the Difference????" a response to W. Chewning's
"Pulling my thoughts together..." by P.C. Paul
I was introduced to the index card method in grade school for extracting data from library books and documenting sources. I was probably beat over the head with it in High school but I can’t remember. I never used the method in High school, I just wrote. The last recollection I have of using this method was in SUNY Farmingdale in the Fall of 1975. When Professor Putzel in ENGL 391 asked us who taught us English 100 composition I had to respond "some old coot," (a geriatric) which was the majority of the responses. This was the last time I heard anything about the index card method until ENGL 488/688 Visual Literacy with Dr. Carpenter. Dr. Carpenter recommended the method in writing our last paper, which had a 25 page requirement and was written targeting a particular scholarly journal as the audience.
I didn’t use the method back in 75’ but for Carpenter’s paper I tried using the method but found using cards cumbersome. I am in agreement with Elizabeth Piccirillo’s position that the index cards are a waste of time and also I would like to add the cards are an extra additional unnecessary expense. My writing process on the computer is iterative. I develop a bibliography initially. I scan documents first looking at concussions for work or studies that may be open or other scholars say need to be researched. If possible I will delve in these areas unless scope, time, and cost are beyond my constraints. I examine for positions to find out what direction the data is taking. I then create a section where I dump others quotations that will support my position or argument. This will have a heading of argument. The other section I develop is the counterargument. In many cases after having created these lists of texts I will perform more research examining the bibliographies of the research first collected and scan these documents for more data. This data I will add to the argument and counterargument lists. In essence I am collecting index cards digitally on sheets of digital paper. These will be printed and examined. From this I will begin to construct an outline and develop a thesis. I will begin bringing the quotations into the headings of the outline. As new data comes in it will be placed into the lists and into the outline. If the data does not fit the outline the outline is modified to make it fit. I will then weave my text, analysis, and synthesis around the scholar’s quotations. Many times the data takes unexpected turns causing me to reconsider the thesis resulting in modifying the thesis to fit the data. As I said this is an iterative process and I will rewrite at the paragraph level and down to the sentence level word by word until I have the text I want within a paragraph. High order processes are usually done last such as sentence transitions and organization. The conclusion is always created last because the thesis may change several times in the process and the organization of the article may change several times also.
Interestingly, this method never came up in ENGL 395 Tutoring Writing Instruction. I question the validity of its strength and its importance considering this article is the first time I have seen it mentioned in a very long time. If the method is so effective then why was it not introduced in tutoring training?
The only thing I have not tried, which I will in the future, is Donald M. Murray’s and Elizabeth Piccirillo’s method of organization: cutting up the text into paragraphs, laying them out on a card table, and physically sort and shift paragraphs to visually experiment with different types of organization. Somehow these methods make more sense to me. Both Murray and Elizabeth are journalists who do a great deal of writing. When I think about the method they use a sheet of the printed page and a pair of scissors in my mind accomplishes the same end through a different means. Also some paragraphs will never fit on an index card. To use index cards for the purpose of constructing an outline actually may be more helpful. Linear outlines always make me crazy especially at the early stages of writing a paper because the outline seems to rigid for my mind. At the beginning stage of the paper when there is little or no research it works or for the five- paragraph academic essay but not when working on larger papers or creative narratives.
The outline can become particularly cumbersome if one is attempting to write a Montaigne-esque essay or if one is showing the internal workings of the mind of a character. This is where the method Bill had discussed which looks more like brainstorming and generating ideas actually works best. The freedom of writing all over the page and drawing associations the way many people think makes the task easier. I would say for the most part I would lean towards the method Elizabeth has suggested because in my mind only the materials differ.
To my mind, the reason they teach the card thing to little kids is to give them some accountability. Do research. Aha. Now prove to me that you did. Same goes for high school. I don't view the cards as much as an organizational tool as I view them a record of work completed. A tool for teachers more than the student. I think teachers see the index cards and see work, time, effort, etc. And at that age, it might be, or is, beneficial to have this kind of record, because the teacher could then better help the student. If the chillins just edited and organized their paper on the computadora, and they screw it up somehow, I believe it would be nice for the teacher to look at the cards and say, "Yo, little dude, why'd you put fact #3 in paragraph two?" And then the little kid can say, "I don't know, boss, what difference does it make anyway? Print is dead."
Because if it all be on the Com Pewter then no body can see it, only the finished product. And if you are trying to teach the kids a process to use for writing, or at least show them that it is, in fact, work, and also hard (and occasionally fun), why not use index cards? I also don't see a difference between cutting up a paper and using index cards, except that index cards would allow more freedom, at least with word choice--not that you can't change what you wrote if you were cutting something up, but with the cards, most of the time they are just thoughts or facts, fragments really, and then you won't be staring at a piece of language you created and possibly like and not be willing to change it, at least as readily. I hope that sentence made no sense.
But like I said before, every technique is a good technique, at least for somebody. No reason not to show people the index card technique. If they decide they like it, then they can use it. If, as the case may very well be, they decide it doesn't rock their socks off, they can do something else. Or nothing at all.
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A response to S. Natovitz 's "Equality For All Methods!" by W. Chewning
Wow...you're a superstar! Way cool...
A response to S. Natovitz 's "Equality For All Methods!" by Shipka
I totally second that--very cool sarah--you win this round!
As for longer papers, mainly papers that I have had to write in college, I find that the outline approach is helpful at times. I’ve considered using index cards again but I don’t enjoy trying to organize random-ordered information with the little time I have. Usually when I’m doing a research paper, I write notes on a sheet of paper of page numbers, quotes, names, books, whatever that might help me. They might not necessarily be in outline form, but it is a system that I am accustomed to and feel very confident in.
now i do everything on the computer simply because i'm a faster typer than writer and i also get hand cramps quickly because i hold the pen like it's about to jump from my fingertips.
what makes the index card method so effective, i think, is the simple act of writing. when i write stuff down as opposed to typing it up, i tend to remember it more easily and also a greater portion of it. with typed text, because i'm not focusing on how my hands are creating the letters which form words, sentences, etc., i'm less likely to reeaally concentrate on what i'm putting down on the screen. writing takes more time and energy, as opposed to typing which takes a few taps of the fingers and voila. when writing, you can't just hit the backspace key and erase your booboo. you have to cross it out, white it out, or whatever-it-out so you're more keenly aware of the errors you've made. which in turn makes the writer more aware of how he/she fixed these errors.
even though writing's the better way to go, i still type everything. i even type song lyrics. this is bad. i feel like it takes away from something in the song itself. it also takes away from the entire experience known as songwriting. i remember one time i was at my favorite band in the whole wide world's concert, standing in the veeery front row and asking the bouncer to give one of their set list’s to me after the show. well, he did and i was so disappointed. the thing was completely typed up. not one of the member of our lady peace ever even touched that set list. so not cool. even so, i took it home and framed it in gold and vacuum-sealed it so that even the tiniest particle of dust would never be able to touch such a brilliant artifact. but that's a whole other story...
anyway, even though i think it takes something away from the experience, i still type things up. it's easier and much much muuuch quicker for me to get my ideas down fast via computer rather than via pen n' pad. i'm now currently re-teaching myself how to depend more so upon pen and paper rather than computer so that i get back the full affect of writing songs.
although, i think i'm still gonna stick to the keys for research and such....
A response to B. Bauhaus' "what's the write type?" by P.C. Paul
I find that I type as much as possible, which creates a different problem. The hand does not function the same when typing as when hand writing. I have spoken with others who’s work depends on keyboarding and most of us have found that our hand writing is becoming worse with time and that it is also more painful to write by hand. I didn’t have this problem when I hand wrote everything. With handwriting I found myself pausing to write the next word to present crossing out. With the computer I dump my thoughts, re-read, copy/paste and manipulate several versions of a paragraph or sentence.
Now I do handwriting when I do not have access to a computer and need to do a "memory dump," in other words, get the thought down and out before I loose it. I recently resorted to dictation into a recorder because I now find times when I can’t be on a computer and I can’t write either but the thoughts begin to build and I am afraid of loosing the train of thought because once I have it I can’t restore it later the same way I was thinking it. Somehow I would like to dump out on some medium at the speed of thought. That’s what my crazy patent was about: being able to dump thoughts into a computer as fast as they occur.
What is funny about the handwriting thing I used to have handwriting that looked like typed text. My handwriting is getting so bad I can’t read it myself.
I still write out my information for papers before I type them to collect my thoughts also. I know that maybe redundant but I love it because I can then flow through my papers easier when I type them. Many people I know love typing up a paper via computer and, depending on the subject, I can breeze through many topics that way also but sometimes I prefer to collect my thoughts and go over them to ensure I have every idea and thought.
Today's society always pushes for the fastest, quickest, and easiest method yet when the method fails they still have to resort to the old school techniques. The next generation should be taught how to resort to the old techniques such as note cards and writing out papers but unfortunately they won't even know how to read a good book without advanced technology. I have to admit it is very sad to say that but many of the younger generations will never even see note cards let alone know what they are used for. The note cards will really be old school.
Working in the writing center I have reason to believe that writing that needs to be done must often be done by any means necessary. Whether it's index cards, outlines, brainstorms, tattoos, drinking (Phil) etc.
If I were to come across a peer who I believed had a dilemma with visualizing and sorting information, I would most certainly suggest the use of index cards or pieces of paper spread out, or anything else that helped them visualize their composition.
More so than in writing research papers, I believe index cards are very useful for sorting information in other fields of composition: like putting together a song or a poem or a power point presentation. They certainly haven't outstayed their welcome.
I believe the use of index cards described in the article we read for class has, however. And the author did mention she no longer uses it during the time her students are working on research arguments.
The most important part of an argument is eliminating apathy. It is this that clouds the clear path to organizing ideas. Erwin and I spent the bulk of our time trying to decide how we felt about the death penalty in order to better complete the task. Though we looked slightly like slackers when we were the only group unprepared with our numbering sequence, I felt positive about the fact that we had used the cards to work through and back to the basis of the goal, which was to make an argument.
hi erwin!
A response to E. Piccirillo's "An Argument for or Against Apathy" by P.C. Paul
“This” presentation originally was designed in order to have all of us consider the implications of the death penalty considering this is a course in “society” and “communication.” I told Shipka what I intended to do, submitted my working plan well ahead of schedule, and at that time it was approved. Days before the presentation Shipka’s radar picked up on what I was doing and she was highly concerned and wanted me to remove the death penalty. I was placed in a position of “if not this… then what?” Everything was in place and I was being expected after working on this plan to “tear it all down, man.” I had to “water down” the entire presentation to where it became so bland that we had what we had. A weak presentation with no real focus. What you guy’s did was what I intended, but under Shipka’s instructions I was directed to tell you guys to focus on the organizational methods.
Eight years after the fact, I have a new proposal. I would like to return to the "Shipka Spaces" with a donation: $100 to $200 worth of Tinker Toy kits and set up a challenge for a new Presentation/Activity Group. Set up a presentation/activity using the "Tinker Toy method of composition organization and see what a group makes of "this!"