Shalom,
In this site we have archived a thread from another forum which we hope will help others see why we say we understand their position on the Reflections document. Yet we also understand Judah's position on conversion efforts because we believe we have been forced (more than once) to step into their shoes. Therefore we have to wonder if the anti-Catholicism that has fermenting will be as evil and deadly as anti-Semitism has been for thousands of years.
We start with the first post below or you can go directly to the Contents
A
"Bedside reading"
God, being who and what He is, has said everything He wants to say to man in the Scriptures. Man, being who and what he is, accepts or rejects all, or part, of the Scriptures according to his particular belief- be it theological, agnostic or atheistic. Two times the Bible tells us that, The fool has said in his heart," There is no God" (Psalms 14:1 53:1). And should we need to describe our modern world in general terms we must needs describe it as "a paradise of fools." The cosmic ignorance of the knowledge of God on the part of man is simply appalling. This is not the fault of the masses, but the fault of the leaders, the teachers, and the news media-the spokesmen of the world.
Unfortunately, ignorance and misconceptions concerning God and His Word are not confined to the world. Many Christians hold their own set of fables closely to their bosoms. Again this is not their fault, but that of the leaders and teachers. To naively accept as truth everything the world or the Church teachers is equally as dangerous as believing nothing at all.
Many traditional Church teachings expose Christians to only half the coin. The Bible, if looked at from only one angle, is indeed a Book of love, joy and hope. If looked at from an entirely different viewpoint, it is a Book of wrath, judgement and doom. But the Bible is exclusively none of these-it is a combination of all of them.
If you need to read further I have quoted the introduction only of a series of books from an Israeli author Ramond Bennett.
Arm of Salvation
The address is PO Box 32381, Jerusalem 91322 Israel
Tel 9272-2-247667 Fax 972-2-250532
Shekinah Books Ltd Po Box 846, Keno, Oregon 97627, USA
For the USA tel (541) 882-9777 Fax (541)850-4395
There are three Titles to choose from:
When Day And Night Cease ISBN 965-90000-0-6
Saga Israel and the Demise of Nations
Philistine ISBN 965-90000-1-4
RE: religion is manmade and corrup...- P (4)
RE: religion is manmade and corrup...- J (8)
Messages in this topic
34. "RE: Bedside reading"
1. The late James Herriot's books are quite good for bedside reading.
16. "RE: Bedside reading"
Since God has made himself known to man--we all need to follow him.
If you keep God in your heart and soul you will
J
1. "RE: Bedside reading"
as you yourself have said, today people only see one side of a two headed coin concerning the Bible.
This condition is seen most clearly in the rejection of the Jews of the Messiah that came 2,000 years ago. He came at the PRECISE time as fortold in Daniel chapter 9 !
He fulfilled every prophecy concerning Messiah, he was crucified,Read Isaiah 53 !
He entered into the actual Sanctuary and Holy of Holies in Heaven (read the book of Hebrews) & (not the one created by Moses, made with hands) and he was raised again by the Father and he now sits at the right hand of G_d, waiting for his enemies to be made his footstool!
It all happened, "it is finished".
And in keeping with his own adjenda, man and satan has corrupted the truth and formed it into "religion", religion is manmade and is corrupted. Especially the Catholic Religion. THis is the central seat of satan and his manmade gospel."not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to HIS MERCY HE SAVES US."
Awake from your slumber oh man, read the "word" of God. Jesus IS the WORD, he became FLESH and dwelt among us ! Because in it you will find out the simple truth that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God", "there is none righteous, no not one", "all of our works are like filthy rags"
You cannot save yourself by "being good", or "giveing money" or "going to church" or "taking communion".
Jesus did it all! You need to humble yourself, repent! cry out to God with tears!
Talk to God! He is "at the door!" His plan is that "all men should come to repentance" and then receive forgiveness through Jesus the Christ! (For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins!
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him (you must believe that he died for YOU!, that you NEED to be saved from Hell,and eternal separation from God) should not perish but have everlasting life"
The end of all things is near friends! These ARE the last days.
REPENT AND CALL UPON CHRIST !
Psalms 2:12 "Kiss the Son lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."
He that has ears to hear, let him hear!
I LOVE YOU ALL!
Paul 2. " religion is manmade and corrupted?"
J,
I agree with what you are trying to say, but I must ask you a few questions.
> man and satan has corrupted the truth and formed it into "religion", religion is manmade and is corrupted. Especially the Catholic Religion.
>", religion is manmade~~~
This is true man did "Make" (transform) the worship of GOD in to many Religions.
The first man to credit with starting a religion was Adam. (so to speak)
When he was put out of the garden how many times do you think he tried to get back in? GOD had to place a guard at the gate. How many times do you think that he and Eve would cry and wail, "OH GOD we're sorry" they were devastated beyond understanding. We can't even begin to know how bad they felt.
After some time they had to admit to themselves that they had to do something to get back in favor with GOD.
One attempt to do this was to build an Alter where they would offer to GOD. You didn't think that Cane and Able thought of this by themselves, they were taught by there parents.
They were taught when, where, why and how to place there offering on the Alter. This was the earliest form of "Religious Tradition", the rest is nothing more than "Religious evolution" (some man's ideas of what would please GOD, some GOD'S instruction to man, how to please HIM"
The Good News is that GOD was pleased with this (when done from the heart and not for gain) and accepted one of Cane and Abel's offerings. But this example in the book of Genesis surely was not the only time that they (early man) offered or pleased GOD. Many, many years later GOD gave HIS instructions to man how this should be done. (more evolution).
At some point man began to disagree as to how these instructions should be interpreted, this has led to the many religions we have to day. (more evolution). Sure some of today's Religions may or may not please HIM more than others. ( example: even witchcraft today is called a religion)
> religion is manmade and is corrupted. Especially the Catholic Religion.
Corrupted, Yes over the years there have been many corrupt things done in the name of religion but, this should not stop the true of heart. It didn't stop Seth.
> the Catholic Religion. This is the central seat of satan
The Catholic Religion is not much different than most other Religions in as much as it has "evolved", It has been led by groups of men who are nothing more than human and therefore as individuals they make mistakes (like we all do), If no individual can be perfect, how could a whole group or (any group) get it right?
Don't you think that there have/will be many Catholics saved because they have a true heart? Afterall all/any Religion is nothing more than our attempt to get back into the garden.
Is it not?
The true of heart will not think of himself as a Catholic or Baptist or Methodist, instead he/she will only wish to please GOD.
Of course I feel that one's faith in Jesus will allow the Holy Spirit to guide him/her as to how to conduct themselves in order to please GOD. If that Spirit leads one to attend a certan Church then do so.
J 6. "RE: religion is manmade and corrupted?"
Your last paragraph says#####that you feel that "faith in Jesus will allow the#####Holy Spirit to guide him/her#####as to how to conduct themselves in order to PLEASE GOD."
Well I think that Jesus answered that Himself;
" If you love me, keep my commandments"
He "commanded":
And the list goes on and on and on and on and on !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"call no man your Father which is upon the earth, for you have one Father which is in heaven".
"Go ye therefore and (FIRST)make disciples, (THEN) baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. How can you baptize a baby? Can you "disciple" a baby? Can a baby "repent"? and then beieve on Christ to be "born-again"?
"Do not make for yourselves a graven image of ANYTHING in heaven or in the earth below."! The R.C.C. is FULL of idols!
" AND EVERY PRIEST STANDETH DAILY OFTEN TIMES MAKING THE SAME SACRIFICES WHICH CAN NEVER TAKE AWAY SIN"
Shalom in Christ
3. "RE: religion is manmade and corrupted?"
Hi P,
Unless you have looked into the history of the Catholic church (the fact is that more Christians and Jews were murdered by the Roman Catholic church over the years than were killed during the Haulocaust!), you can not understand what I have stated.
Read the book of Hebrews and pray for undersanding. You will be enlightened by the Holy Spirit and understand that the "sacrifice" has ended. The priesthood is no more. Hewbrews 10:11 says " and EVERY priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices which can never take away sins. But THIS man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God."
To continue the priesthood (and even worse, to allow themselves to be called Father! AND EVEN WORSE! TO ELEVATE A MAN AND CALL HIM HOLY FATHER !!!!! Matt 23 " and call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven") and to claim to be changing the bread wafer into the actual body of Christ, and then offering this false sacrifice up to God continually is an abomination to Christ and to His work on the cross.
This is Satan's deception of the un-regenerated man. It falls perfectly into a "man-made" process of sinning and then covering the sin with a sacrifice which "can never take away sin and clear the conscience" Matt 15 "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."
I stand on the word of God as being truth. This truth became flesh and dwelt among us! John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."
The reason that God was pleased with Abel's sacrifice and not with Cain's is that Abel offered an animal Hebrews 9:22 "and almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without the shedding of blood is no remission (forgiveness)."
When Adam and Eve sinned, and knew that they were naked, and hid themselves from God, they sowed fig leaves together and made themselved aprons to hide their shame, but: Genesis 3:21 "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them." (animals were killed, blood was shed!by God to "cover" their sin!
Cain's sacrifice was not accepted, but God in his grace and loving mercy said to him Genesis 4:6 "why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7#####If thou doest well (make an acceptable blood sacrifice like Abel's), shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.
Cain CHOSE to defy God. He refused to make an acceptable blood offering.
The blood offering was clearly given to Adam and all men from the beginning. But man's ego, and will, to offer HIS OWN PLAN OR WAY TO PLEASE GOD HAS BEEN "RELIGION" FROM THE BEGINNING.
Religion is manmade.
There is the "word" which is Christ.
Christ is the stone that the builders rejected. Matt 21:44 "And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."
"God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"
Repentance and then acceptance of the blood offering of the Great High Priest Jesus Christ, is the way to eternal life, and few there be that find it."
Why? because like Cain, man hardens his or her heart and insists on makeing his or her OWN sacrifice (not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to His mercy He saves us"
"For by grace are ye saved, and that not of yourselves, not by works, lest any man should boast."
Do you want to PLEASE GOD?
John 314 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness (Numbers 21) so shall the Son of Man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
When Moses lifted up that serpent, did the people have to do anything else but look upon it and live? (believe what God said and do it?)
Any church that preaches ANY GOSPEL other than this one, let him be accursed.!
" and MANY shall say to me in that day Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in thy name... and I shall say to him.....I never knew you. Depart from me, ye that work eniquity."
I say this in Love! "ye must be born again"
4. "RE: religion is manmade and corrupted?"
J,
>Unless you have looked into the history of the Catholic church (the fact is that more Christians and Jews were murdered by the Roman Catholic church over the years than were killed during the Holocaust!),
I have, and they sure did. No debate there. or excuse for these actions. I am not trying to defend the R.C.C. I was defending a small number of the Faithful that are members of, not leaders of the R.C.C.
Do you believe in repentance? That is asking GOD for forgiveness for one's sins. The R.C.C. have realized the sins that they (there leaders) have done and publicly and in Prayer ask for forgiveness. Now I don't know how much good it will do for one to repent for the sins of another but at least they admitted there past and I will leave there judgment to HIM.
>To continue the priesthood (and even worse, to allow themselves to be called Father! AND EVEN WORSE! TO ELEVATE A MAN AND CALL HIM HOLY FATHER !!!!!
Agreed: I don't like this practice of holding titles other than perhaps that of "Brother", "Bishop" or "Pastor". I don't really even like being called Reverend. Actually I prefer to be called "P" but again I will leave there judgment to HIM.
> and to claim to be changing the bread wafer into the actual body of Christ, and then offering this false sacrifice up to God continually is an abomination to Christ and to His work on the cross.
Matthew:26:26: And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; THIS IS my body.
Mark:14:22: And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: THIS IS my body.
Luke:22:19: And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, THIS IS my body which is given for you: this DO IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME.
1 Corrinthians:11:24: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: THIS IS my body, which is broken for you: THIS DO IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME.
They are doing exactly what they/we were told to do! So how can you say this is a false sacrifice and an abomination to Christ? Are they doing it wrong? Should they be using a different brand of wine? Of course not ! they are doing it perhaps a bit different than the Baptist or Lutherans but none of us have it just right, do we?
> It falls perfectly into a "man-made" process of sinning and then covering the sin with a sacrifice which "can never take away sin and clear the conscience"
In the service (any Church's service) there should be a time before one eats this bread, and drinks this cup of the Lord that he/she should examine himself to see if they are worthy. Now I would ask, who is unworthily? We all are! For all have sinned and fallen short. This is now the time for repentance. A time to ask GOD for forgiveness. And you know that HE will be swift to forgive us of our sins. (7 times 70)!
Only then can we partake of this with a true heart.
It is not the eating of the bread and wine that COVERS our sins. It is the repentance and forgiveness that allows us to properly remember (reverence) His death.
5. "RE: religion is manmade and corrupted?"
P,
In "remembrance" is correct.
Implying the "mysterious" changing of the bread during the voo-doo of the mass (by a Priesthood that has been abolished)into the ACTUAL body of Christ is quite another thing! And yes they do "offer" it as a sacrifice as part of the "mass"! Shocked? me too! You should RUN out of there! The devil comes as an "angel of light".
The Catholics may have apologized for the crusades and inquistions, but true repentance means the "turning from and going in another direction" and "forsaking" of sin.
If that were the case, the Catholics would have CHANGED and turned, but instead they are still the old Roman empire. The catholic doctrines and writings of the popes that were used to justify these unthinkable acts are STILL IN PLACE TODAY AT THE VATICAN!. And they will "usher in" the anti-christ! He will come out of the revived Roman empire.
If you ask the average person (church goer, or not, Catholic or not) What is the head of the Christian Church today and what person is the head??
they would say the R.C.C. and the Pope (Holy Father !) This lie will be believed by the majority of people even more so than it is right now, and then when anti-christ is revealed, and the R.C.C. steps up and alligns itself with him, "they will believe a lie!"
The Roman empire persecuted and killed Jews and the new sect called Christians, until Constantine had a dream and vision in which he was told to "conquer through the cross". Satan began his work!
During the time of Constantine in approx. 306 a.d.,Christianity bacame the state religion of the Roman empire. Rome was now considered the headquartersm of this new church which mixed and merged Rome's false god's and paganism with Christianity to form the Roman Catholic church. The true Christians that held to the teachings of the Apostles and the Lord Jesus Christ resisted this and were hunted down and killed because they would not admit to the "mother" church and only "true Christian church", Catholocism. They believe this "one and only true church" way today in their own writings and teachings. Which by the way, they don't like to talk about too much. "an angel of light" They are keeping a much lower profile today, trying to look new and evangelical.
Dont get me wrong Paul, I DO believe that there are some people in the Catholic religion that are redeemed, and they will eventually be told by the Holy Spirit to (Rev. 18:4) "come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her palgues."!
Revelation 17 is clearly talking about the great harlot dressed in scarlot and purple (these are the official colors of the priests and pope according to their own catholic encyclopedia)
Verse 9 "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth." ROME ! sits on seven hills, the VATICON ! He that has ears to hear, let him hear.
This WOMAN (and the virgin Mary is held up as a God!)is more important, especially in Europe, than Christ!
Verse 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornications, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, etc.etc.
Verse 7 "How much SHE hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously,..."
1 Timothy 4 says clearly: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; FORBIDDING TO MARRY, AND COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM MEATS...."
This is clear Paul, and I can just touch on many many more points of "doctrines of devils" such as:
The average catholic doesn't have a clue as to what they believe, what the church believes or what God's word says! Because they are not encouraged to read the word and let the Holy Spirit talk to them. They have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof! Clearly Clearly. Open your eyes (and heart)
Paul, we could go on and on with this but I don't think it is profitable. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God" not the pope or any other sinner.
Paul, have YOU been "born again"? Can you specifically remember the day, the hour, the moment , that you repented and called out to Christ and were CHANGED?
II Corinth 5:17 "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
Are you trusting solely in Him or your own righteous acts? "All our righteousness is like filthy rags!"
Gal 2 21 "I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
In Love,(and the truth shall set you free!)
J
7. "RE: religion is manmade and corrupted?"
Hi J;
Thanks for these well thought out posts on the subject of the False "christian" R.C. church..
I heartily agree with you, and I feel that if someone is saved inside this false churh, he/she was saved because of outside influences and Doctrine.
Some may try in good faith th remain inside this monster of deceit and "change" her.
Sooner or later, this being impossible, they will be forced by concience to get out of her..
D
J
8. "RE: religion is manmade and corrupted?"
Thanks brother D,
It is just a shame that the Jewish people (and the rest of the world for that matter) connect the word "Christian" with this Satan lead cult called the Roman Catholic Church.
They killed more Jews and Christians during the dark ages of the crusades and inquisitions than ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION including HITLER himself (who by the way had the Vatican's blessing!)
They truly have "doctrines of devils" and because satan comes as an "angel of light" the followers of catholicism don't see the "truth" until they be "converted".
The entire ROman Catholic Cult is driven by WORKS!
and by the ABOMINATION! of the MASS!
What a slap in the face! to Jesus the Christ! and His wonderfull work on the cross, to be implying that the "sacrifice" and "priesthood" need to be still going on!
And to call a "man" HOLY FATHER!!!
The anti-christ and one world church is just a breath away!
Dave, I will pray for you and yours in these "last days" that you will be strong in the Lord! and in the power of His resurection!!
Please do the same for me and my family!
In Christ,
J
9. "RE: religion is manmade and corrupted?"
http://biblebelievers.com/babylon/
http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Baptist_Bible_Hour/Archives.asp
Links for anyone interested in this subject.
The second link is audio and gives valuable insight from the CHristian perspective.
Recomend: Joyful Obedience"...Obedience to God is NOT a heavy burden!!
__________________________________________
Greetings J,
Certainly will hold you up in prayer, J, and thanks.
My position here in this forum has been the same as yours. The Jewsih unbelievers use catholicism as an arguement against CHrisst Jesus and True CHristians and they are happy to point out the faults/errors of Catholicism.
They have no thought or time for the fact that True CHristianity was here on earth, alive and well from the 1st. century to present, with no association with the R.C. False church.
This is the point of my "Trail of Blood" post. It is true that centuries later the Reformation did it's fine work in Europe and on into America, but, thr Roman Catholic Church, at no time in history was the repository of Gods Truth and it's propagation to others.
She has been tainted from her beginning with gross heresy. It seems our friend P and so many others were never made aware of this..
The R.C.C. being a Political Power, got all the exposure in secular History, and I guess this explains most of the shortcomings.
ANd, Bible Schools have by and large been secularized to the point of little or any value in these last days.
Our Jewish friends would rather spend billions of gigabytes discussing minutia, as though this brings "wisdom" and insight into God and His Ways...And they miss God in the process also..
Prayer for these is the power we have left!! The Lord God will work his Will in all these folks. Most, it seems, miss the Kingdom. And some will inherit it as the Gift of God via His Grace and Mercy in CHrist Jesus!
D
http://biblebelievers.com/babylon/
Perhaps you are familiar with this book of Hislop?
_______________________________________________
J
10. "RE: religion is manmade and corrupted?"
Amen to that D!
And I am confident in saying that there are very very few, if any, catholics lurking here, concerned with the eternal souls of the "people of G_d" as we are.
We are driven by the love of the Savior to try and "compel" them to seek Messiah!
Romans 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after Him, and find Him, though He be not far from every one of us: For in Him we live, and move, and have our being"
The Spirit within us burns in our hearts with love for the Jewish people!
Zech 12:10 " And it shall come to pass in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that comes against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and THEY SHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, AND THEY SHALL MOURN FOR HIM, AS ONE MOURNETH FOR HIS ONLY SON, AND SHALL BE IN BITTERNESS FOR HIM, AS ONE THAT IS IN BITTERNESS FOR HIS FIRSTBORN." 13 " They shall call on my name and I will hear them; I will say, it is my people; and they shall say, The Lord is my God."
No, I am not familiar with those web sites, but I am working on them right now! Thanks and feel free to email me with anything else that you think I might like (since we are of the same mind!).
He is King!
J
Paul 11. "RE: religion is manmade and corrupted?"
J,
I am sorry not to have replied sooner but I had to work out of country for the last week. Those that know me in here know that when they don't hear from me for a while that I am out on some cruise ship somewhere.
I have allot to read up on but I did get through this thread and your email.
Please don't misunderstand I am not trying to defend the R.C.C. or bash them (not my style) I could fill pages of things that the leadership of this Church does (not to mention did) that does not sit to well with me, (i.e.: the Pope just blessed some idle (I mean icon) mounted on a large pole last week) but while I don't disagree with what you guys have said here while I was away, I will restate, that I feel that there are many inside her membership that are there with a pure heart (not there trying to change her, well perhaps some) but there because that is all that is available. These are very simple people, in very poor countries. Sometimes groups of evangelicals come through and hold large meetings but then they are gone and there local Priest is still there. So what are they to do? They don't understand a fraction of what there Church really stands for much less there past, but they do understand that when they take part in mass there sins are forgiven, (not by the man-priest) but by our High Priest Jesus. Not like the Americans that say "Oh it's O.K. to do that, I'll just go to confession tomorrow". As for defending the R.C.C's leadership and practices, I will leave that for her members that post here from time to time.
J
14. "RE: religion is manmade and corrupted?"
Hi,
I agreed with everthing you said until you said,
"but they do understand that when they take part in the "mass", their sins are forgiven."
This is really the heart of the matter!
Our sins are forgiven only when we are "converted". Up until then our father is the devil. John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." We are ALL of our father the devil and a slave to sin and the flesh and the world, until that day that we REPENT and "call upon the Lord" and be converted and changed by the "washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit" THE NEW BIRTH, BORN AGAIN OF INCORRUPTALBE SEED"
When we go to God and repent, and then put our faith in Jesus as Savior! then and only then#####are we "changed" and we receive the Holy Spirit. This must happen FIRST! The "New Birth","Ye Must Be Born Again"! THis new birth gives us the ABILITY not to sin!
Then, and only then, are you a Christian! Thus the word "CONVERTED".
The Catholic church implys to everyone that is taking the mysterious "eucherist" that they are having their sins covered and forgiven by the "act" of taking it! They don't PREACH THE GOSPEL! It is a false religion of the worst kind!
This taking of the bread and wine is nothing more than a memorial service. To remind us of the death#####of our savior and the shedding of His blood for us. There is no forgiving of sin going on from it!!
The forgiveness of sins comes this way:
1.) "I tell you, Nay: but except ye REPENT, ye shall all likewise perish. (Repent=turn from sin and go to the Savior to be Saved!)
Acts 2:38 " Then Peter said unto them, REPENT! and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Acts 3:19 "REPENT! ye therefore, and BE CONVERTED, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord."
Mark 1:15 Jesus said " The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: REPENT ye, and believe the gospel."
Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to REPENT!"
REPENT! and be CONVERTED! That is what the Catholics and every man needs to do. THEN and only THEN do you RECEIVE the Holy Spirit, and become BORN AGAIN!
"if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creature, old things pass away (the old life of being a slave to sin, continually), behold, all things become new."
I John 2:1 " My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
I John 1 " If we confess our sins, he is faithful#####and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." This is does not have to happen in conjunction with the "memorial" service pertaining to the Lord's supper. And it doesn't have to be done in a church service. WE ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD NOW "if" WE HAVE BEEN "BORN AGAIN" AND CONVERTED!
Who do we confess our sins to ? After we are converted, and "Born Again" by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit, we know and are known by Jesus, and we confess our sins To Jesus and are forgiven! We are also taught to confess our sins to one another, not for forgiveness, but for a witness and to have another brother or sister pray for us and encourage us to be strong in the Lord!
I Tim 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT PREACH THE GOSPEL! Their "followers" are not taught that they need to be CONVERTED First. They don't preach repentance, turning from sin! They teach, go ahead and sin, then just come and get the "magic" wafer and you'll be ok. They bind "heavy" burdens on the people.
Jesus said, "take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is easy"
The catholics are still in their sins. THey are not taught that you need to be CONVERTED! CHANGED! THERE IS GOOD NEWS!
John 9:31 "Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth" "God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to REPENTANCE"
They preach that they are ALREADY converted because of some ritual they have performed on them when they were a baby, or perhaps when they became old enough to learn and recite some man made prayers in a book.
How can you be SAVED if you are never told the "words of God" the Bible, so you can be convicted of sin, and realize that you NEED TO BE SAVED?!
These are doctrines of devils!
WAKE UP! COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM MY PEOPLE!
Matthew 15:8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME"
"BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN"
It's not all about the "eurherist" (or how ever you spell it), it's about Being SAVED FIRST!
RECEIVEING THE HOLY SPIRIT, BECOMING A CHRISTIAN!
The Catholic church is a manmade system and GOD is not in it!
That's why, they never really know for sure if they are saved or not. They even need to get LAST RIGHTS prayed over them, one last chance to try and do something to be "good enough" to go to heaven.
WHEN YOU REPENT! and RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Ghost, YOU KNOW FOR SURE THAT YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED, BECAUSE GOD COMES INTO YOU AND CHANGES YOU..........you are CONVERTED!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In Christ,
J
P 22. "RE: The Lord's Supper"
Jay,
After rereading this post I see that I had missed this post.
So I will reply a bit late.
What you have said here is good but, I may have mis-lead you when I said "but they do understand that when they take part in the "mass", their sins are forgiven."
I did not mean to imply that the act of taking the bread and wine would forgive there sins. As you posted
you said,
This taking of the bread and wine is nothing more than a memorial service. To remind us of the death of our savior and the shedding of His blood for us. There is no forgiving of sin going on from it!!
Yes, Yes, Yes But,
There is more to the "Mass" than this. There is a part of it where one Prays to God for that forgiveness by confessing there sins. Now I know that you will go into a debate about confessing to God and Not the Priest.
In this you are correct.
You said,
I John 1 " If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." This is does not have to happen in conjunction with the "memorial" service pertaining to the Lord's supper.
There are many that feel that the saved can and do "sin" (I believe this and so do the RCC) Based on Heb:10:26: For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
See it is possible to sin after we are saved and yes there is no need for sacrifice, only repentance and confession.
(but This was the subject of another thread).
This is why we MUST DO THIS in conjunction with the "memorial" service pertaining to the Lord's supper.
We don't want to take it in an unworthy manner. If we see that we have sinned and repent and confess our sins one to another he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. 70x7 Then we can properly remember His Sacrifice.
you say,
We are also taught to confess our sins to one another, not for forgiveness, but for a witness and to have another brother or sister pray for us and encourage us to be strong in the Lord!
O.K. so what happens when that brother does Pray for us?
James:5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James:5:15: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; AND IF HE HAVE COMMITTED SINS, THEY SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM.
Sin IS a sickness!
>I Tim 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
This is so true. and when we confess one to another He hears us.
The Priest is JUST a MAN so (I think) he will do to fill the part of "one and another", as long as we know that he (the Priest) is not the one forgiving those sins. he is only reassuring us that after the confession Jesus has forgiven them ( well this is how it should be anyway).
Perhaps this is another one of those things that seem to we on the outside of the RCC to be one way, but when explained by them they seem to be another.
CFoegen through P
12. " posted on behalf of C & C"
A Protestant Pastor whome we don't as "p" was very gracious to post all our posts for us. Here we retained his brief explination as is. Also from here forth we placed our names on our posts to make this piece easier to read.
{Incase there are any that don't know C&C have been regular posters here but sometime ago for some unknown reason they can't post here. They have tried everything. They can login and use the privet email though. so when they need to post they email me and I copy and paste there replies unedited (even when they are disagreeing with me).
So here is their reply. To reply to them just post a reply like you would to me and when I get there response I will post it for them.}
********
Shalom P,
Thank you for the outstanding response to Jay and Commonsense, however as we are Catholic we feel we better understand the root of our traditions and the many misunderstandings that abound, especially on the Inter-Net. And when we defend our Church, we base it on the Spirit of the Catholic law and not the perceived infractions. With that, we may have a possible response for Jaygen1 on Dry Bones for the site:
"Bedside reading" response number 6, titled, "RE: religion is manmade and corrupted?", which was posted on Dec-03-02, 02:38 PM (GMT).
Below is a partial treatment of the claimed "errors". We'll have to deal with the "Babylonian controversy" a little later as that one takes a bit more time to pull together. Hopefully your offer is still open and we can draw upon your services again?
B'Yeshua/Y'hoshua HaMoshiach, shalom l'chiam,
C & C
Shalom J,
We read your piece with interest and we'd like to ask you a few questions. You stated very clearly:
" If you love me, keep my commandments"
Knowing that the Father, Son and Holy Sprit one "ONE", we can safely assume that Yeshua's (Jesus') words and examples reflect the Father's will, as does the Ruach HaKodesh's (Holy Spirit) lead reflect both Father and Son. Therefore, consider Yeshua's words in Matthew 5 where he has not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it; and not one dot not one iota will be removed until all is accomplished. This clearly supports compliance of the law, but is it the full written law of the Hebrew Scriptures or is it the full spiritual meaning? We see that it is the spirit of law because Yeshua not only spoke of the law in Matthew 5, but he seemed to have moved the bar higher (do not even hold anger towards your brother vs. you shall not kill).
As for the other mitzvoth of HaShem, do you keep them perfectly? Do you love your enemy? Do you treat others as you wish to be treated? Do you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols? From blood (from the law of Kashrus)? From what has been strangled? From unchastity? And when one falls short of these, what prevents them from being condemned? Mercy, of course; but mercy has a clause for it is written:
"the measure you give is the measure you get".
Now, you also wrote:
>>>He "commanded":
"call no man your Father which is upon the earth, for you have one Father which is in heaven". >>>
Are you implying that all those who call their male parent "father" are going to Sheol? If so, wouldn't that be a bit legalistic, considering the context of the passage is for us not to claim ancestry from a forefather (i.e. father Av'raham) to separate ourselves with favor or even justify ourselves, but rather know that our heavenly Father is Father to all without separation. Thus, we not to say things as: "I am the student of Rav Shual, or son of David, or I learned from the great sage Hillel". Instead we are to exalt only G-d in heaven, who shows no partiality and which all truth stems from. However, this doesn't mean we can't obey any leaders here on earth that He appoints over us.
>>>"Go ye therefore and (FIRST) make disciples, (THEN) baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. How can you baptize a baby? Can you "disciple" a baby? Can a baby "repent"? and then beieve on Christ to be "born-again"? >>>
Hannah dedicated Samuel from the womb, and from that day forward he was a servant of G-d, growing to be a prophet. Therefore in our eyes, baptism in the RCC is the way parents promise to dedicate the lives of their children to G-d. And the Church commands that they act upon this promise to sincerely to raise their children in the faith and give them over to the Father. For the Word states "where two or more are gathered, there I shall be" and if He also said "Ask and it will be given you" that the Father loves us and will do what we ask if this is good, then what is evil s for Catholics to ask the Father to sanctify their children from birth?
>>>"Do not make for yourselves a graven image of ANYTHING in heaven or in the earth below."! The R.C.C. is FULL of idols! >>>
Indeed there is a difference between icon and idol; and the RCC is definitely full of icons. A Scriptural example is the bronze serpent in Num.21.4-9. When they looked upon it and believed they were saved (but that was not the sacrifice of Yeshua, thus is it an idol?). Of course later in Scripture there were offerings made to this same icon, and it was at that very moment it became an idol. So, if the Church keeps them separated, then what harm is there in following the example of HaShem Himself who is perfect?
>>>" AND EVERY PRIEST STANDETH DAILY OFTEN TIMES MAKING THE SAME SACRIFICES WHICH CAN NEVER TAKE AWAY SIN" >>>]
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh IS FOOD INDEED, and My blood is DRINK INDEED. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him." Jn.6.53-55
This offering is not an atonement sacrifice to take away sins, but rather a Thanksgiving offering, which is the same one found in Malachi 1.11 and note that it is among the Gentiles and it is righteous. Also the Talmud states that only one sacrifice from the Torah was eternal and this is the Thanksgiving sacrifice. Therefore the Eucharist doesn't take away our sins, but by His word above it does help us "abide in Him and He in us". So what's the sin?
Shalom l'chiam,
C & C
(And a belated happy Chanukah)
J 15. "RE: posted on behalf of C & C"
"but rather a thanksgiving offering"?
Hebrews 10:11 "And EVERY priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes (many times, over and over) the SAME sacrifices, which CAN NEVER TAKE AWAY SINS"
14 "For by ONE offering He hath PERFECTED FOR ever THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED (made Holy)"
It is finished! and then the veil in the Temple was torn from top to bottom!
Being "made Holy" before God is not a day after day process. The following after of "men" traditions.
The catholic clergy are the "scribes and Pharisees" of today Matt 23 "For "they" bind heavy burdens and grievous tobe borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men; they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feast, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi (spiritual Father), Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call NO MAN#####YOUR FATHER UPON THE EARTH; for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer#####ye them that are intering to go in."
"come out from among them, and touch not the unclean thing"!
"ye shall know them by their fruit"
Homosexuality ! Adultry ! Fornication !
At one time Rome was called the "City of bastard children" from all of the adultry taking place between the clergy and the men and women of the church. Abominations!
Concerning "baptism", if this baptism that you practice is in truth, merely a dedication, then why do your "followers" believe that it takes away the sin of Adam? And also, where does it say that Hannah "baptized" her son Samuel?
and Most importantly, where is the "baptism" that is so clearly commanded in the New Testament? to be done AFTER a sould is redeemed?? This is exactly why you (the RCC) hunted down and killed the "anna" baptists in the early days of the church. Because they held to the true Biblical baptism, and went against the "mother" cult! Thus the killing and slaughtering of TRUE BELIEVERS! The same ones that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held that cry out in heaven to God, Rev. 6:10 " how long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
The Gospel is "CONVERSION" through REPENTANCE and FAITH IN THE FINISHED WORK OF JESUS THE CHRIST! at which time you RECEIVE the Holy Spirit!!! and then "baptism" which is an "outward" memorial to show what has happened inwardly by the Holy Spirit. People invite their un-saved relatives and they publically tell them about the NEW LIFE that they have found in Christ! It is the public "pledge of a good conscience towards God."
John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, butcanst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." But the catholic church doesn't preach the gospel, so how would anyone become "Born Again"?
I pray sincerely that you may II Tim 2:26 "recover yourselves from the snare of the devil" concerning these "doctrines" of the same, that you so easily believe, having forsaken the truth, but rather choose to "teach for doctrines the commandments of men".
In Him,
J
13. "RE: posted on behalf of C & C"
well, Shalom to you too
It is obvious that the Lord was not speaking of our actual birth Fathers when he made the statement "call no man your Father". So you are really reaching on that one. But HOLY FATHER? That's out and out blasphemy! The pope has the "ear" of the world, and he will usher-in the anti-christ !
Christ called GOD the Father "Holy Father"! Awake from your sleep !
Next, what "you" take the "eucharist" to mean, and what your own Catholic teachings and encyclopedia takes it to mean are 2 differant things. Again, awake from your sleep. The Catholic "followers" (the majority) are practicing voo-doo. It is a "carnal" system and lends itself well to it's dark, satanic rituals.
The idols? Yes, they are being prayed to, yes they are being sacrificed to (through prayers), yes, the Bibles says make "no graven image of anything in heaven or on earth" "thou knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."
The priesthood has been abolished. It is an abomination to continue to offer sacrifice. If you aren't offering sacrifices then why call it a priesthood?
1 Timothy 4:3 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and DOCTRINES of devils (sound familiar yet?)Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron: FORBIDDING TO MARRY, AND COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM MEATS."
The Catholic church as done nothing but kill true bible believing Christians and Jews since day one. This is history and you can't deny it! The "forbidding" to marry is directly realated to the terrible things that the catholic priests are doing and have been doing in the way of homosexual activities since the early days of the church. Yes, they also told their "followers" to abstain from meats!
Come out of her my people!!
"and EVERY priest standeth daily, often times offering the same sacrifices which CAN NEVER TAKE AWAYS SINS." That's clear isn't it? We (believers) are a royal priesthood, offering our selves, our lives to Christ! We (believers) are Saints.
Concerning the Catholic Church I will end with this statement. I love people that attend the Catholic Cult. I simply will not stand around like the rest of the world, and say "look how nice the emperorer's new clothes are" The emporer is NAKED, AND BLIND and wretched!
THe Catholic system has it's roots in the pits of Hell! Come out from her my people!!!
Matthew 15 #####But in vain they do worship me, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN."
J
17. "posted on behalf of C & C"
Shalom J,
We pray for you and hope that His shalom will come upon you. Your anger and judgment reflect a distrubance inside your heart that we hope the L-rd will bring peace.
As to your charges, Scripture must be taken into context and that is why we proceeded to give the context of the statement regarding "father", but it seems that you focused on the obvious and ignored the real issue- what was meant. This is evident because you continue with words such as:
>>> But HOLY FATHER? That's out and out blasphemy! The pope has the "ear" of the world, and he will usher-in the anti-christ! >>>
Again, seeing the proper meaning of those words about "father" will help here as well, but we also suspect you may be misunderstanding the context to the term "Holy". This does not in any way diminsh our L-rd and G-d, but rather reflects to the position the pope holds as being appointed by our Holy L-rd, starting from Peter (the first pope). Also Catholics capitalize this title not to equate him to G-d but because it denotes only one man thus it reflects a proper name.
At this point you may still disagree, but please a bit more patient as we can share with you that the pope we believe is mentioned in Scripture in several places, including under the name Antipas (as found in Revelations). Breaking the name back into its root words in Greek, we find "anti" means "instead of", "in substitution for", "or in correspondence with", while "pas" means, "father". Therefore this name implies to us to mean "instead of the Father"; and Scripture clearly calls this man, "My witness, My faithful one" (Rev.2.13). So why is that title so evil or wrong?
Another set of locations we believe we have found the pope mentioned is in 2Thess.2.6 and Zech.5.6-8. With that in mind, we believe that the cost of this unholy rhetoric you have sadly embraced is the death of an innocent and righteous man and the breaking out of full lawlessness as well as the rise of the anti-chist. We are working on this very scripture proof, HaShem willing and should start to have this up on-line soon.
We are not saying we have perfect understanding in these passages, but we are willing to accept correction if proven wrong through Scriptural proofs. In due fairness, we are giving our views for those here skilled in Scriptural exegeses to review our findings and ask questions.
>>>Next, what "you" take the "eucharist" to mean, and what your own Catholic teachings and encyclopedia takes it to mean are 2 differant things. Again, awake from your sleep. The Catholic "followers" (the majority) are practicing voo-doo. It is a "carnal" system and lends itself well to it's dark, satanic rituals. >>>
Actually, we used Sola Scripture to help establish the Eucharist and we are willing to either link you to our writing on this or post its full length here to defend our position as well as the Church's.
>>> The idols? Yes, they are being prayed to, yes they are being sacrificed to (through prayers), yes, the Bibles says make "no graven image of anything in heaven or on earth" "thou knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.">>>
Do you know the hearts of men so well as to be able to judge what they say or do? And before you answer, please explain Num.21.4-9 where G-d Himself gave instruction to make an image of the earth!
In all fairness, we do not blindly believe that all Chrsitians are free from idols, but this doesn't justify condemnation for all icons either. >>>The priesthood has been abolished. It is an abomination to continue to offer sacrifice. If you aren't offering sacrifices then why call it a priesthood? >>>
"For the rising of the sun to its setting My Name is great among the Goyim (Nations), and in every place incense is offered to My Name, AND A PURE SACRIFICE (or offering), for My Name is great among the nations, says HaShem of hosts. But you (leaders of the Temple) profane it when you say that THE L-RD'S TABLE is POLLUTED and IT'S FOOD may be despised." Mal.1.11-12
Note that a sacrifice (or offering) was being made just before the Holy Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70CE, and this "sacrifice" was called "food" for the L-rd's "table". So exactly what sacrifice (offering) was this? Also, if Judah was exiled and the Great City and Temple were destroyed, why were their words of contempt for this sacrifice (offering) so serious a crime?
>>>1 Timothy 4:3 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and DOCTRINES of devils (sound familiar yet?)Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron: FORBIDDING TO MARRY, AND COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM MEATS." >>>
If you are referring to the Church's ruling on priests not being able to marry, one should understand the motivation behind it, including that those in such vocations "have made themselves eunachs for the sake of the kingdom heaven" because those positions are all voluntary in nature.
As for "COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM MEATS", there is nothing wrong with disciplining one's self. If you still believe otherwise, then remember that our L-rd is the same yesterday, today and forever; and it is this same L-rd Who commanded of Israel:
"Neverless among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, YOU SHALL NOT EAT THESE: camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you, And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the hare, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the swine, because it parts the hoof and is cloven fotted but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. Of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch; they are unclean."
Now, we understand that these laws are not upon the Goyim (Gentiles), but there is the Law of the blood (Acts 15), which was to keep the entrance of faith burden free for the Gentiles. Therefore, to condemn the Church (who has matured from that point in Acts 15) for ASKING their members to abstain from meats on each Friday during Lent seems rather legalistic to us.
>>>The Catholic Church as done nothing but kill true bible believing Christians and Jews since day one. This is history and you can't deny it! >>>
To deny the real facts of history would be foolish. We recognize there have been errors in the Church's history, but do you recognize the atrocities that Protestants also have committed upon Catholics and Jews throughout history? Beyond that point, what does one need to do to receive salvation? Is it not to recognize oneself as a sinner and also to confess that Yeshua (Jesus) is L-rd? Then why is this permissible for individuals but not the institution founded by our L-rd and Savior? The RCC had indeed apologized for her iniquities, both to the public as well as our L-rd. therefore how do you have the right to judge her?
The RCC has also made great strides to establish greater tolerance through her ecumenical dialogues and a large part of her reason for doing this is to find out exactly what in her teachings might have played a part in these iniquities. Many changes have occurred since Nostra Aetate of the Church. Thus shouldn't the Church be given enough time to complete these changes before she is condemned? Especially since it took nearly two thousand years to evolve these teachings, it may take a few more that a few thousand days to find the dross that is in the gold.
>>>The "forbidding" to marry is directly realated to the terrible things that the catholic priests are doing and have been doing in the way of homosexual activities since the early days of the church. >>>
The passion of the flesh is something that affects many people, whether priest or laity. And according to media studies and their results, the homosexual activity in the RCC is not greater than other religions or even that of the public, so why is there such a loud outcry against the Church? And this shows that Rav Shual was right, that making laws don't save but rather faith does. So does this mean we should throw out the laws or might we get our leaders together to study the holes in law? Then possibly increase enforcement and penalties for these who break the law while having the Supreme "court" of the faith make certain individual liberties are not infringed upon, lest we get a lynch mob in the zeal to deal out justice?
>>>"and EVERY priest standeth daily, often times offering the same sacrifices which CAN NEVER TAKE AWAYS SINS." That's clear isn't it? We (believers) are a royal priesthood, offering our selves, our lives to Christ! We (believers) are Saints. >>>
We have already replied to this on the issue of Scripture, however we have not received any in return to support your position. In fact, this it seems that you were only repeating yourself as you also wrote:
>>>" AND EVERY PRIEST STANDETH DAILY OFTEN TIMES MAKING THE SAME SACRIFICES WHICH CAN NEVER TAKE AWAY SIN" >>>
Since these are the same points, we simply can ask as to how your response correlates to our assertion that Jn.6.53-55 supports our position, including that our Church does NOT TEACH this "sacrifice" supplants His Sacrifice upon Calvery or that it is a sin sacrifice or a guilt offering? The Church teaches that this is a Thanksgiving Sacrifice. Please go back to the Hebrew Scriptures to see how each pertains to a different aspect.
Shalom l'chiam (Peace in Life),
C & C
19. "RE: posted on behalf of C & C"
Dear C & C
If you want to know the TRUTH about the Catholic Cult, go to the below address. Instead of making excuses for them, you should "come out of them my people" and "touch not the un-clean thing"!
The RCC has committed worse acts upon mankind than ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION in the world. And they did it KNOWING THE SCRIPTURES! Thou shalt not kill! How hard is that one to figure out.
http://members.aol.com/libcfl/trail.htm
A Sample of the above site: "The world has never seen anything to compare with the suffering, the persecutions, heaped upon Baptists (ana-baptists) by the Catholic Hiererchy during the dark ages. The Pope was the world's dictator
J
18. "RE: posted on behalf of C & C"
1. In numbers 21:8 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass , that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live."
The "Lord" commanded Moses to do something, and he did it. He did it "unto the Lord". This was an important lesson being taught by God the Father, as was the offering of Isaac by Abraham in Gen 22. And as I assume you know, this corrolated directly with our Lord's finished work on the cross (John 3:14).
However,when the Lord said, "thou (you) shall not make unto thee (unto yourselves)ANY graven image, or ANY likeness of ANY thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth"
He said it, because He is God and He knows man and the weakness of the flesh. He knows that ANY graven image or likeness of anyting will draw the soul away into the flesh and this as you know wars against the Spirit. You may be able to handle it (although I believes you are opperating in the "vanity of your mind") but your "followers" are being kept from true worship and for that matter, they are being kept from "knowing" God, because you are not preaching the Gospel, and telling the people that they need to be "born again" )John 3. God knows us and knows what is needed for true worship. To speak to this is:
The RCC DOES NOT preach Repentance and Conversion! It is through CONVERSION that we#####are Changed !
The NEW BIRTH, The Receiving of the Holy SPirit! Ezekiel 36:26 " A new HEART also will I give you , and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." This is the new birth!
25 "then will I sprinkle clean water (the believing of the WORD) upon you (RCC probably says this is baby baptism or some other man made doctrine)and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness and from all your IDOLS, will I cleanse you."!
COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM MY PEOPLE!
The problems with the RCC are very deep and are steeped in "traditions" and "commandments of men" and "lies" by satan that were believed many many years ago, and the mixing of the pagan gods of Rome, with the word. Satan comes as an angel of light!
Thank God that His "word" hasn't changed. The RCC church needs to start bringing forth the "word" and not just some watered down readings that lead the "priest" into a watered down humanistic message without teeth. The "word" is a sword, and as such, it needs to be handled by a Spirit filled soldier of God.
We receive the Spirit when we are BORN AGAIN!
The "commandment"(if you love me, keep my commandments) is simple and is for our own good! "make no graven image or likeness of anything", then you won't have to "make up" excuses why you do it! Period! Nothing added, especially by a MAN!
2. "call no man your father on the earth" Again, this is a simple statement pertaining to Christ as the "head" of the church and not "man". The RCC has replaced Christ as head and even has a supreme "holy father" in Rome (the city that sits on seven hills See: Rev. 17) This holy papal position has it's roots in the pits of hell. This has taken the eyes of the "followers" away from "Spiritual" things, onto the FLESH again. The "eyes of your understanding are darkened" and you have become "blind guides". Christ spoke of you scribes and Pharisees and said "woe unto you"!
2 Thes 2:6 you say is pertaining to the Pope? I agree, because in context, it is talking about the "anti-christ",
from verse 3:"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 AND NOW YE KNOW WHAT WITHHOLDETH THAT HE (anti-christ)MIGHT BE REVEALED IN HIS TIME. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the#####way.
Remember, the devil cometh as an "angel of light" and to the un-saved, the pope is of the "light" and is deceiving MANY and will cause MANY to (II Thes 2:11) "believe a lie".
3. In your pride you have lifted yourselves up and said "abstain from marrying. You have since changed your rules (again) to allow it, (God is not mocked; whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap)but the Bible has ALWAYS said the same thing:
I Tim 3:1 "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, THE HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE, VIGILANT, SOBER, OF GOOD BEHAVIOR, GIVEN TO HOSPITALITY, APT TO TEACH.....ONE THAT RULETH WELL HIS OWN HOUSE, HAVING HIS CHILDREN IN SUBJECTION WITH ALL GRAVITY."
I Corinth 7: 2 "Nevertheless, to AVOID fornication, let every man have his own wife..."
Yes, P said that he would rather every man to be as he was (un-married) but knowing that this was not the will of God, verse 7"But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that" and verse 9 "But if they cannot contain (and it is obvious that your "priests" cannot), let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn."
Again, the RCC has taken it upon themselves (in the flesh, lifted up in pride as THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH) to I Tim 4 "Forbidden to marry". And they have reaped what they have sewed. Unfortunately, this is just the "tip of the iceberg". "ye shall know them by their fruits".
4. Concerning your quoting the O.T. about abstaining from meats, I Tim 4:4 Thus Sayeth The LORD " For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving." "for it is sanctified by the WORD OF GOD (Christ is the WORD in the Flesh) and prayer."
5. Concerning the "euch
The BIBLE, (The word of God, Christ IS THE WORD, come in the flesh) "In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God and the WORD was GOD" has taken a way way way back seat in the RCC. Of course lately they are trying to look more "evangelical" but the true believer does not believe the "lie". The Bible has taken the backseat, and so has Christ. In front of Him they have put Mary and have raised her to a god!
This is of course the true Babylonian false god. The Babylonians, in their popular religion, supremely worshipped a "goddess mother" and a "son" (satan comes as an angel of light remember) who was represented in pictures and in images as an infant in his mother's arms (sound familiar?) From Babylon, this worhsip of this "mother and the child" spread to the ends of the earth. In Egypt, the mother and child were worshipped under the names of Isis and Osiris. In India, even to this day, as Isi and Iswara, in Asia as Cybele and Deoius, In pagan Rome as Fortuna and Jupiter-puer, or Jupiter the boy; in Greece as Ceres the great mother with the babe at her breast, or as Irene the goddess of peace, with the boy Plutus in her arms. The very name by which the Italians commonly designate the Virgin , is just the translation of one of the titles of the Babylonian goddess. This all has its roots in the original worship of the false god "baal". Again, just the "tip" of the iceberg and the "root" of the RCC that originates in the pits of hell. see Rev. 17. "come out of her my people"!
PLEASE DON'T CONFUSE MY PREACHING THE TRUTH WITH ANGER. I AM NOT ANGRY, I AM BRINGING FORTH THE WORD. Hebrews 4:12 "For the WORD of God is quick (alive!), and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
>the passion of the flesh is something that effects "many" people?> How about ALL PEOPLE. That's why God has told us to "call no man your father", and "thou shalt not make any graven image", and "do this in REMEMBRANCE of me", and "the husband of one wife", and all the rest of the true doctrines of any Bible believing church!
You still have our wonderfull Savior nailed to the cross! You are using Him over and over and over. Your people are "ever learning and never coming to the truth" because they need to FIRST, become CONVERTED!
In Matthew 15 verses 7-9, Christ addresses the scribes and Pharisees and He would address the RCC church the same way today!
" Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prohpesy of you , saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN."
and again the "WORD" speaks of you! II Timothy 3:5
" Having a "form" of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
and again: Matt 6 "but when ye pray, use NOT "vain repetitiions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."
I Tomothy 2:4-5 "Who will have all men to be SAVED (Born Again!) and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH, For there is ONE GOD, AND ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, the man JESUS CHRIST."
And there is not time to discuss the other sins of the flesh such as
The paying for and lighting of candles to effect the souls of those that have given up the ghost (pergatory).
The praying to and holding up of saints as an idol to be worshipped (and their statues). Rev. 22:8 " And I John#####saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, SEE THOU DO IT NOT: FOR I AM THY FELLOW SERVANT, AND OF THY BRETHREN THE PROPHETS, AND OF THEM WHICH KEEP THE SAYINGS OF THIS BOOK: WORSHIP GOD
19 "AND IF ANY MAN SHALL(add to or)TAKE AWAY FROM THE WORDS OF THE BOOK OF THIS PROPHECY, GOD SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, AND OUT OF THE HOLY CITY, AND FROM THE THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK"
Amen, and AMEN!
37. "Posted on behalf of C & C"
Shalom J,
We hope you don't mind if we respond to each charge on separate posts. We do not wish to have statements accidentally missed from either side. The first one we'll choose is that on icons, which you said:
>>> And as I assume you know, this corrolated directly with our Lord's finished work on the cross (John 3:14). >>>
True, the brass serpent was a SYMBOL of something that was one day to be, yet by Catholic definition, this makes it an icon. Icons are symbols and are kosher (proper) so long as we do not worship them. Therefore our Church allows veneration (respect for these, as one respects tools of a trade), but bans adoration and worship (which then would be an idol).
Now, this symbol of the icon in Num.21.4-9 was created to respresent (or allude to) our Moshiach's sacrifice (that is the sins of men), yet later it was destroyed because the people turned this icon into an idol, 2Kgs.18.4. Therefore, we clearly see that HaShem is showing us that even icons have limits, which our Church even recognizes. And if these limits are ignored, then and only then must those who are given the strength from G-d speak out and tear these down.
So if we are wrong what is your reasoning for King Hezekiah destroying that "icon" that HaShem directed to have been made, the same one that our Moshiach would link to His sacrifice on the cross?
>>>You may be able to handle it (although I believes you are operating in the "vanity of your mind") but your "followers" are being kept from true worship and for that matter, they are being kept from "knowing" God, because you are not preaching the Gospel, and telling the people that they need to be "born again ) John 3. God knows us and knows what is needed for true worship. >>>
You flatter us too much, for we have not risen to be leaders of the Church, but rather are still small little pebbles.
As to your claims of keeping others from knowing and worshipping G-d, we cannot accept this for you have not proven that our understanding of Scripture is erroneous. Indeed we see things differently, but to claim that we are in grave sin is not a right given to you. The priveledge of judging others belongs to our L-rd, unless you can prove His Spirit and power have been granted to you. Since we have not seen such eveidence, we would like to remind you of Rav Shaul s words:
But also:"And since they did not see fit to acknowledge G-d, G-d gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct though they know G-d s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them." Rom.1.28, 32
Now, if all icons are evil (as it seems you imply), then should not all nations remove their flags or remove all war memorials (we have seen many kneel in prayer at the Vietnam War Memorial) for those that have died in battle? How do these things differ from the Catholic view of icons? People (even Protestants) kneel before such items but to believe that they kneel to pray to that item is only an assumption because who truly knows their heart? The L-rd Himself knows. As for our view, we see that these people are actually using those memorials as a reminder of the sacrifices made as they mourn in their prayer to G-d above. And if you still see this as being wrong, then you must look beyond the Catholic Church for the majority of the government leaders are Protestant, and not Catholic."Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you the judge are doing the same things." Rom.2.1
Still we also see the risks as we ve said before:
"All things are lawlful for me but not all things are helpful, All things are lawful for me but I will not be enslaved by anything." 1Cor.6.12
The line between icons and idols can sometimes be a very fine line, for history has shown that icons can be on a slippery slope. Though our Church had considered getting rid of these icons, she saw the need (as our nations leaders do for memorials) and decided then that the need outweighed the risk. Maybe one day she will change her mind, however it is not for us to decide. Yet at the same time many in Christainity have an idol of their own:
" No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve G-d and mammon." Matt.7.24
So which is more deadly to the Christian heart and soul? The icons that adorn the Catholic Churches or the excessive drive toward materialism and the greed of this American Christian society where the poor slip further into despair and hopelessness?
Shalom l chiam,
C & C
20. " posted on behalf of C & C"
Shalom again J,
We know you didn't get to see our previous post by the time you posted this, but please note that many of these charges we have already responded in our last post, thus we hope you don't mind if we treat them as addressed in full, for these posts are long enough. Please know that we are willing to debate issues, but we believe that there must be some type of cessation to the mantra. After all, many of those who shout the loudest in repetition are not always correct for this is what happened with the majority who cried out "crucify Him, crucify Him".
On another note, we said that the Eucharist is the Thanksgiving sacrifice (or offering) and NOT a sin sacrifice, so why tell us that it is otherwise? Have you truly studied the doctrines of the Church instead of those that declare their outright hate and contempt of us? We ask because you make statements such as:
>>> They teach, go ahead and sin, then just come and get the "magic" wafer and you'll be ok. >>>
In this case, we would like you to quote the actual Cathechism that teaches this claim of yours. For our position, the Eucharist does not save like a magic pill, although it can heal. To explain, refer to Jn.6.56 where it states that when we eat His body and drink His blood we are abiding in Him. We see this as a step in faith (a small step), which Rav Shaul clearly states we must NOT do while in sin, 1Cor.11.27-30. Therefore it helps to bring healing by forcing us to look at our own walk and our own errors before these weaknesses give birth to deadly sins, Jam.1.13-15. In this way He helps us abide and overcome our weaknesses (venial sins) and grow in our faith. Catholics who sin yet still go to the receive Eucharist without repenting are putting themselves at risk because the unclean should never approach the Holy, and this is the essence we believe of what Rav Shaul was trying to say. And when we overlook our "error" over and over again we are warned:
"Then desire when it has conceived give birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death." Jam.1.15
Now for those who state this Eucharist is a symbol, then the first question (of several we can debate with) is how can a mere symbol be profaned or even cause illness or death? (see 1 Cor.11.27-30)
>>>The catholic clergy are the "scribes and Pharisees" of today Matt 23 >>>
Through this claim, you must also be acknowledging that the Church has authority to rule. For even Yeshua said of them, "The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you . . . " So even through all those "errors" of the scribes and Pharisees, Yeshua supports their authority. And please note that it was He Himself who spoke to help correct their walk, therefore when corrections are needed, it seems quite likely that it will be by His hand and mouth. In the meantime, she possesses the original keys of Peter (Matt.16.19), whch also happens to match our Jewish heritage from which she sprang from.
We are not so naïve to ignore that Scripture foretells that some leaders will abuse their followers, Matt.25.45-51. This is why the two prophets, Y'hoshua and Zereb'babel will come (see Zech.11.4-6). However, note that abuse of one's followers is all over the Christian faith and not limited to the Catholic Church, for there are many righteous and holy men in the Catholic Church. But again, we do not worry because Yeshua told us tares would be planted among the wheat and that we were not to "pull them up" lest we uproot the wheat as well, Matt.13.24-29, 36-43.
As for us, we will await those two prophets to guide us and study their attributes without drawing preconcieved notions so we might see them when they arise. Yet they hold in their hands the staffs of grace and union, and we see neither staff within any of your words.
>>>Concerning "baptism", if this baptism that you practice is in truth, merely a dedication, then why do your "followers" believe that it takes away the sin of Adam? And also, where does it say that Hannah "baptized" her son Samuel? >>>
Because we believe that when we dedicate our children to HaShem and agree fully to raise them in the faith of our fathers we in essence believe in the proverb that states, "bring up a child in the way, and he will not depart from this when he is old". Therefore if we promise before the Great IAM to bring our child up in the His way, we have His promise that He will confirm this commitment when they get old.
As to why we have child baptisms, the Church explains that in the Scriptures whole households where baptized, thus there is nothing in these texts that state that children were excluded. Now, please keep in mind that a child baptism is only kosher according to the Roman Catholic faith if the family members raising this child is either Catholic or converting to our faith themselves AND commits themselves to raising that child in the faith (that is "training them in the Way"). These parents/guardians are taking a serious repsonsibility in which we see the L-rd honors and respects, and the child must also confirm this decision when he/she is old enough to make that decision (thus the sacrament of Confirmation).
>>> THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT PREACH THE GOSPEL! Their "followers" are not taught that they need to be CONVERTED First. They don't preach repentance, turning from sin! >>>
Actually we do; but it would be interesting to see the doctrine you draw from to make your claim.
>>>We are also taught to confess our sins to one another, not for forgiveness, but for a witness and to have another brother or sister pray for us and encourage us to be strong in the Lord! >>>
A recent study found that the best counselors are frequently priests and lay people and not those with advanced degrees. Might this be why Yeshua told our leaders:
"Receive the Holy Spirit, IF YOU FORGIVE THE SINS OF ANY, THEY ARE FORGIVEN; and if you retain the sins, they are retained." Jn.20.22-23
If each Sunday a particualr person goes to confession with the exact same "sin", the priest would begin to suspect this person misunderstands mercy (treating it like a lucky rabbit's foot) and thus the priest would likely spend that time in confession teaching him what mercy is and what it is not. However with your above scenario what stops this man from seeking out a different "brother" to confess to so that nobody can see any pattern without gossiping among themselves (another sin)? This is why we agree with the Catholic Church that this ability to forgive and retain sins was not extended to everyone but to those who are gifted as such (that is called to such a position), which then reduces the above risk.
>>>But the Catholic Church doesn't preach the gospel >>>
To quote just a couple passages of the Cathechism of the Church-
"2653. "The Church 'forcefully and specially exhorts all the Christian faithful . . . to learn 'the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ' (Phil 3:8) by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures.... Let them remember, however, that prayer should accompany the reading of Sacred Scripture, so that a dialogue takes place between God and man. For 'we speak to him when we pray; we listen to him when we read the divine oracles.''"
Also on her own responsibility:
"2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles He had chosen, commissioning them TO PROCLAIM THE GOSPEL: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." (Mat.28.18-20) Strenthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the L-rd worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it." (Mk.16.20)
"3 Those who with G-d's help have welcomed Christ's call and freely respond to it are urged on by love of Christ to PROCLAIM the GOOD NEWS everywhere in the world. This treasure received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ's faithful are called to hand it on from generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celenrating it in liturgy and prayer. (Cf. Acts 2.42)
And for a portion about the Gospel:
"430 Jesus means in Hebrew: "G-d saves." At the annunciation, the angel Gabriel gave him the name Jesus as his proper name and his mission (cf Lk.1.31). Since God alone can forgive sins, it is G-d who, in Jesus his eternal Son made man, "will save his people from their sins" (Mt.1.21; cf 2.7). In Jesus, G-d recapitualtes all of his history of salvation on behalf of men."
"432 The name "Jesus"signifies that the very name of god is present in the person of his Son, made man for the uiversal and definitive redemption form sins. It is the divine name that alone brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke his name, for Jesus united himself to all men through his Incarnation (cf Jn.3.18; Acts 2.21; 5.41; 3; Jn.7; Rom 10.6-13), so that "thereis no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."(Acts 4.12; cf 9.14; Jas.2.7)"
If you cannot see the Gospels in these passages (and there is more as well), then you have not done your research to understand those whom you seem quick to condemn.
>>>WHEN YOU REPENT! and RECEIVE the gift of the Holy Ghost, YOU KNOW FOR SURE THAT YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED, BECAUSE GOD COMES INTO YOU AND CHANGES YOU..........you are CONVERTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>>
This very much sounds like rebirth as found in John 3. We're sure that you do not believe that you must re-enter your mother's womb for this rebirth, yet you admit there is a change in the person. Not that of a symbolic change, but a real change, one that is spiritual for the Spirit is real. For all of this we agree, especially when you should be able to see this also affects the true nature of the Eucharist. It is not a "magic wafer", nor is it symbolic, but spiritual; thus it is real and henceforth literal.
But we would like to add that HaMoshiach did say:
"Not every one who says to Me, 'L-rd, L'rd,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, "L-rd, L-rd, did we not prophecy in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and do many mighty works in Your Name?' And I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you evil doers.'" Matt.7.21-23
We are also warned that wolves come to us in sheep's clothing (Matt.7.15, 1Jn.19), thus we are also told that we will know them by the fruit they bear. This fruit needs to be consistent with Scripture, including the ways we are to approach brethern (Gal.6.1-10), even leaders who may be in sin. It is this cohesiveness of Scripture that we also look for in those claiming to love us and claiming to have HaShem's call to correct.
Shalom l'chiam,
C & C
J 24. "WAK"
It is interesting how quickly you take on the authority of being the "scribes and Pharisees" of today, and simply ignore the wretched conditions they represent. And I might point out, that Christ told them "not to do as they do".
No, I did not mean that you were the "actual" scribes and Pharasees of today, because they are still active as such in the spiritual leadership of Israel today.
You are a "type", that Christ talked about (and Esaias prophecyed about) in Matthew 15 "Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. But in VAIN do they worship me, TEACHING FOR DOCTINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN (the RC Church).
You can't even count the amount of "false man-made doctrines)that are present today and still in the writings and teachings of the RCC! SOme have been added, some removed, changed, editted.
One of the biggest laughs (or crys) is that the so called "mass" was actually performed in LATIN back in the day, with the so called "priest" having his back turned to the people. Doing some voo-doo in a GOLD DOMBED container (propbaly something to do witht he Ark of the Covenant, who knows. The Bible could only be read and understood by the "priest" and reading it on your own was not allowed! How could YOU , a mere man, know what the Bible says, you need the so called "priest" to TELL you what it says!
NO, what we all need is FIRST, to receive the Holy Spirit (the NEW BIRTH), THEN, He will give you understanding when you read the "WORD".
THe point is, the RC man-made "doctrines of devils" are#####not believed by most of the "followers" that call themselves Catholic, because it is rediculous, and goes against logic!
A bunch of mumbo-jumbo, while all the while the priest is chasing after the altar boys in the back!
WAKE UP! If it looks like it stinks, and smells like it stinks, then something's WROTTEN!
J
21. "RE: posted on behalf of C & C"
You indeed "seem" to have the ability to put the right "twist" on each scripture to make it coincide with the dogma of the RCC, however, it is more than evident from the "fruits" of the "church" down through the ages, that the "angel of light" is in control.
The fact still remains that catholics,as a whole, are very supersitious (a lust of the flesh), don't know for sure that they are saved (of course how can they, when they aren't being given the gospel, don't have the fruits of the Holy Spirit, don't think it wrong to openly sin and accept it "even from their own clergy", don't preach repentance and the "new birth", don't practice baptism as commanded by the Lord, don't practice the Lord's supper as a "memorial" service but continue to require the priesthood to complete the "mystery", make up doctrines of "devils" ie purgatory, deny that Mary had other brothers and sisters (Mary and Joseph were married), of course this lie had to be made in order to raise Mary to a type of god/idol. Same with the saints. All born again believers are saints and a "holy priesthood". But the RCC has done their voo-doo again.
They hold man up as deity, kneeling and praying to him (see Rev. 22:8)and even pray to Mary (see my last post). Mary has been elevated ABOVE Jesus. Did Mary die for your sins?
I will study the RCC cult writings and get back to you with some of your "own" statements that supercede God's word.
Until then, I sincerely pray for you in hope that you will be given repentance from God the Father, and will stop worshipping in vain and stop practicing doctrines that are based on the "commandments of men".
Every lust of the flesh is involved in the RCC church! It feeds the flesh so well, it is no wonder that there is a "form of godliness, but no power". The prayers are repetative like the "heathen", they have beads and jewelry, Christ is still on the cross and is used as a sacrifice over and over and over "which can never take away sins".
This is clearly a mixture of the pagan Roman empire and the Christian religion, all wrapped up together and made into a carnal process of do's and dont's that says that the "priest" is capable of forgiving sin even more so than God Himself.
WAKE UP! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be baptized! and you shall receive the Holy Spirit!
J
23. "RE: posted on behalf of C & C"
Also, it is interesting to note that I was just at a Catholic funeral/mass over the weekend! What a mess they have made!
I made specific notes and copied down exactly what the "priest" said.
While performing the "voo-doo" of the mass, with the kneeling down to, and kissing of t hings on the table and what not, the "wafer" is then raised up to heaven and the words "God, receive these sacrifices in the hope that through them, we will (some day)be worthy of eternal life.........." were used.
This is the WORST kind of blasphemy possible! Instead of a "memorial", "do this in remembrance of me", the "wafer" is being called and treated like the ACTUAL body and blood of the Lord! And they've got a "priest" doing it! Just like in the Temple!
The people taking it, un-saved and lost, were under the impression that this "magic" wafer, and the taking of it on a regular basis, holds in itself some kind of key in them eventually going to heaven when they die, and also, that the "mass" said for the dead person, some how effected HER redemption!!!!!! FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO !
Another interesting FACT was that, behind the "priest", there was a large statue of a woman (Mary), with beams of light emitting from her to the four corners of the room. Under her feet was an angel, worshipping her! BLASHPEMY AND MYSTERY BABYLON ! Around her were pictures and statues of men, also being worhsipped! (saints?) Only Satan knows for sure!
THen, as if this wasn't enough! The priest said, "now we will hear the gospel" and he proceeded to read one verse from Matthew's gospel, from one of the parables (not even the whole parable!)
Then, instead of preaching the "bible" on ANYTHING, he proceeded to give a humanisitic message about life in general, and how we all die eventually etc. etc. Nothing but MAN's opinions and man's blind walk through this world.
My point is,
That Christ came and died for us and made the "once for all" FINAL sacrifice on the cross, and that each person MUST be born again and receive the Holy Spirit in order to KNOW Him and be KNown by Him, and then, after receiving the Holy Spirit, then..........be baptized ! That there IS NEW LIFE in Christ! and that each person should be looking for it, and "call upon the name of the Lord and be saved"...............
WAS NOT GIVEN. THE People left there, never hearing God's plan of salvatiion. They were all dead! It was the DEAD burying their DEAD!
The clergy are obviously still in their sins and "natural"
I Corinth 2:14 " But the NATURAL MAN receiveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."
COME OUT FROM HER MY PEOPLE!
It has been my experience that when a person does become a Christian, and begins to read the Bible, with the understanding given by the Holy Spirit give at the "new birth", that they RUN OUT OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CULT AS QUICKLY AS THEIR FEET WILL CARRY THEM!
"and the truth shall set you free"
In Christ,
J
25. "RE: posted on behalf of C & C"
OK C&C, here we go, from you OWN Catechisms
#985 "Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of the forgiveness of sins: it unites us to Christ, who died and rose; and gives us the Holy Spirit."
>and gives us the Holy Spirit> A little more than a baby dedication wouldn't you say?
#1237 "since baptism signifies liberation from sin and from its instigator the devil, one or more exorcisms are pronounced over the candidate. The celebrant then annoints him with the oil of catechumens, or lays his hands on him, and he explicitly renounces Satan. Thus prepared, he is able to confess the faith of the church, to which he will be entrusted by baptism."
All I can say to all this voo-doo is, God help the Harlot and her followers and COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, THAT YE PARTAKE NOT IN HER SINS.
1253 "Baptism is the sacrament of faith. It is only within the faith of the church that each of the faithful can believe."
I thought the Bible says, "fatih cometh by HEARING and hearing by the WORD of God."
#1263 "by baptism, all sins are forgiven" WOW !
The Bible says in Acts 2:38 " Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Can a baby REPENT?????? NO!
Baby baptism has lead the Catholics to believe that the baby is not to be taken outside untill it is baptized. Why, because they believe that if the baby dies BEFORE it is baptized, it will die in sin, because the baptism "forgives" or removes sin!
BLASHPEMY AND DOCTRINES OF DEVILS!
This CLEARLY takes the POWER to save, out of the Lord's hands, and puts it into the "church's" hands. "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof."
#986 "By Christ's will, the church possesses the power to forgive the sins of the baptized and exercises it through bishops and priests normally in the sacraments of penance."
So we clearly see that the RCC believes that their priests and bishops themselves have the POWER to forgive sin!
#1031 "The "church" gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The "church" formulated "her" doctrine of faith on purgatory especially at the councils of Florence and Trent."
Again, the "church" is "formulating" it's own doctrines (doctrines of devils) irregardless of what the scriptures say again and again. "having a form of godliness, but denying the power there of".
The "power" has been tranfered from Christ and the Holy Spirit, into the hands of sinful men, namely, the bishops and priests.
What a mess! Carnal and of the world.
The devil truly comes as an "angel of light"
#1032 " The "church" also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead."
WOW! What blashpemy and what dis-regard for the once for all and final sacrifice of our Lord and Savior on the cross. Can Christ's finished work on the cross be ignored any worse?
The almsgiving is the giving of MONEY to the church in exchange for the redemption of the dead! Masss cards and the like!
And then they use the words "works of penance", even when the Bible clearly says, "not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to HIS MERCY, HE SAVES US."
FATHER FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO! or do they?
The whole RCC system feeds the flesh and removes God from the equation. "God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him, must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth."
The writings of the Vaticon and various Councils that were held over the years, and the writings of the various "holy fathers" have been taken as truth! THey are doctrines of DEVILS!
Turn back! Turn back to the WORD of God. The doctrines of God, and do not "worship Him in vain, making for docrtrines the commandments of men." ! !
AMen, and AMEN!
45. "Posted on behalf of C & C"
>>>OK C&C, here we go, from you OWN Catechisms
#985 "Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of the forgiveness of sins: it unites us to Christ, who died and rose; and gives us the Holy Spirit."
>and gives us the Holy Spirit> A little more than a baby dedication wouldn't you say? >>>
Unfortunately you are taking passages that explain adult baptism and not child baptism. Child baptism is explained in the Cathechism as follows:
Cat.1231 Where infant Baptism has become the form in which this sacriment is usually celebrated, it has become a single act encapsulating the preparatory stages of Christian initiation in a very abridged way. By its very nature infant Baptism requires a post-baptism catechumenate. Not only is there need for instruction after Baptism, but also for the necessary flowering of Baptismal growth. The Catechism has its proper place here.
In other words, she is saying we must "train them up in the way" and trust HaShem's promise that they will not depart from this when they are old . True she uses the word "catechumenate" and "Catechism" which is to refer to the interpretations of the Catholic Church. Other denominations have their own interpretations and require some type of education of it, whether it is Baptist, Pentecostal or some other name. In all cases it comes down to being a Bible based teaching (their understanding of the Bible based teaching). Thus infant baptism is nothing short in our eyes than an act of faith where we trust in G-d s promises to bless our efforts in passing out faith onto our children and it is not an act of voodoo .
On Cat #1237 you also stated "all this voo-doo is, God help the Harlot". As for the rest, it seems to be that same repetition. Yet Rom.6.17 states:
" But thanks be to G-d, that you WHO WERE ONCE SLAVES OF SIN " This is a foundational piece to the Church s teaching for it is quoted in her footnotes of that text you quoted. Also the act where our Church denounces hasatan in the Catecument s past is (as we have found) based on a Jewish belief of yetzer hara (that we have tendency toward savagery or original sin ). The prayer is for the Ruach HaKadosh to assist in this process in bringing forth the yetzer Hatov (tendency toward saintliness, Tzedakim) so they can overcome this inclination toward evil.
So where is the evil in trusting HaShem when we dedicate our children to Him and commit ourselves to the instruction of faith? True, we may differ in interpretation, but that does not justify your negative claims toward our Church, us and any other who does not "see" as you do. In fact, you seem to be challenging P in his salvation when you asked him:
>>>Can YOU recall the day, the hour that you were "changed >>>
We do not question P's salvation for we do see the Ruach working within him, both in word and deed; for it is written that you shall know them be their fruit. You cannot get bad fruit from a good tree; and as we stated, P's own witness on this meassage board is proof of that good tree. This is the requirement to know who has a valid baptism, not whether you remember the day, the hour that you were changed .
>>>1253 "Baptism is the sacrament of faith. It is only within the faith of the church that each of the faithful can believe."
I thought the Bible says, "fatih cometh by HEARING and hearing by the WORD of God." >>>
A sacrament is an outward sign of an inward Spiritual change. In this case, the change is rebirth, which comes from hearing the Word and accepting this Word and continuing in this Word (see Matt.13.18-23). Therefore when it is apparent that faith in HaMoshiach is well rooted, our Church initaties a public dedication of this faith. Infants coming from within our traditions are assumed to have parents who know, teach and exemplify this faith. Therefore these children will come unto faith as well for the child is being trained up in the way. . . .
>>>#1263 "by baptism, all sins are forgiven" WOW !
The Bible says in Acts 2:38 " Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
The operative words above are baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins which means exactly by baptism, all sins are forgiven .
Now, you may not be aware of this, but as you go through the Cathechism, the Church gives foundational pieces and then uses these pieces to build the next level and so forth. To do otherwise would be to re-establish each proof before even proceeding to more complicated issues. In this case you quoted #1263, but if you go to the previous number (#1262) you will find a reference to a footnote that takes you right back to Acts 2.38. And as you continue to move to the beginning of each section you will find those foundational pieces we spoke about that lend to the more complex points that many people get confused with. In other words, like Scripture, if taken out of context you will get a different perspective than what was intended.
So how does this fit into infant Baptism? Well Yeshua said:
"Go therefore and disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."
And this is what we do, we bring our young disciples before the Church and baptise them in the above Names and promise to teach them His Comandments and we believe He will fulfill all that He has pomised and He does. The faith our children at their very young age for us are proof of this doctrine validity.
>>>Baby baptism has lead the Catholics to believe that the baby is not to be taken outside untill it is baptized. Why, because they believe that if the baby dies BEFORE it is baptized, it will die in sin, because the baptism "forgives" or removes sin This CLEARLY takes the POWER to save, out of the Lord's hands, and puts it into the "church's" hands. "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof." >>>
This claim does not match our Church s teaching for the Cat. 1261 states:
"As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of G-d."
And to those among us who have never heard the Gospel or are block in some way outside their control from accepting this, she writes:
"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ, but seeks the truth and does the will of G-d in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicity if they had known its necessity. Cat.1260
>>>#986 "By Christ's will, the church possesses the power to forgive the sins of the baptized and exercises it through bishops and priests normally in the sacraments of penance.">>>
This teaching is based on John 20.22-23:
"When He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.
and on Matt.16.19:
"I will give you (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heave, and whatever you loosen on earth shall be loosen in heaven."
>>>#1032 " The "church" also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead." >>>
This understanding comes from the book of 2Macc.12.43-45. In fact of these acts the text reads:
"In doing this (taking alms, indulgences of the Temple, and praying, 43, 44) he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead."
So this is a carry over from our Jewish traditions and founded not on paganism but our belief in the resurrection of the dead!
As for works of penitence, these are not works that save but rather a product that flows forth from those who have felt and responded to His mercy! For example, if you damaged a neighbor s lawn, would you ask for his forgiveness and then do something (pay for the damages, work to fix it yourself, etc. . . ).
So far, the proof you have been giving us seems to be a simple misunderstanding or different views on how we choose to interpret certain texts of Scripture. Yet ironically, most of your complaints of our Church s intolerence date back to a time when she herself once insisted that everyone must think like her. Now she has matured greatly from that those that have protested against her, yet these same ones are now putting on the same robes she took off.
Shalom l chiam,
C & C
42 posts
Peter wrote some of the books of the Bible.
Why then didn't he write about the :
and on and on and on and on.
I'll tell ya why, Cause it isn't true!
The RCC is all made up my men, sinfull, perverted, adulterous,murdering men!!
If you don't believe me, just look at their Fruits down through the ages.
"BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM"
46. "Posted on behalf of C & C"
Shalom J,
You asked:
>>>Peter wrote some of the books of the Bible. Why then didn't he write about the>>>
Peter didn t write in depth about a lot important issues in his letters but only those things needed by the local congregation in which that letter was being sent to. Indeed he probably wrote a whole lot more letters we never have seen because much was lost from those early years. Yet we believe nothing is lost to the essence of what HaShem desires us to know, so long as we believe that no one book can stand alone or even a small series of books. The full revelation of G-d s message can be found from Gen.1 to Rev.22.21. So it is the wholeness of His Word that we require to properly intepret. For example the doctrine of the virgin birth is rooted in two texts, Matt.1.22-23, Is.7.14:
"Therefore HaShem himself will give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall concieve and bear a son and shall call His Name Imman u-el."
The common interpretation for the child she birthed and called Imman u-el is Yeshua/Jesus, yet Judah clearly points out to all that this interpretation doesn t match the meaning of the original text. Yet Judah s most common interpretation of this text also has problems, that is Judah was never exiled by Assyria and then how does their exile by Babylon match E phraim s by Assyria when Judah returned and E phraim has yet to return?
In the past both sides have firmly stood by their own understanding but can our understandings be G-d s if both understandings are disregarding other parts of these same texts? Is this same problem existing within Christianity? For example John 6.25-71.
So we have a question for you while we pull together the answers to the many questions you have asked us recently (plus sorted through that document you recommended)- Whose interpretation of the text should we favor and is it all right to disagree on certain Scriptures and still stay united if we can t come to an agreement?
Shalom l chiam,
C & C
28. "RE: posted on behalf of C & C"
ok, I finally found the "false doctrine" I was looking for:
Catechism of the Catholic Church Article 3
#1393 "for as often as we eat this bread and drink the cup, we proclaim the death of the Lord. If we proclaim the Lord's death,we proclaim the forgiveness of sins. If, as often as his blood is poured out, it is poured for the forgiveness of sins, I should always receive it, so that it may ALWYAYS FORGIVE MY SINS. BECAUSE I ALWAYS SIN, I SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE A REMEDY."
There it is in YOUR own Catechism!
"if, as often as his blood is poured out, it is poured for the forgiveness of sins, I should always receive it, so that IT (the eucharist) may always FORGIVE MY SINS!!
#1410 " It is Christ himself, the eternal High Priest of the new covenant who, acting through the mimistry of the priests, offers the Eucharistic "sacrifice". And it is the same Christ really present under the species of bread and wine, who IS the OFFERING of the Eucharistic sacrifice"
It's clear that Christ has not "SAT DOWN" but is still "acting" to offer HIMSELF again and again in this eucharistic "sacrifice"!
#1405 "Everytime this mystery is celebrated, "the WORK of our redemption is carried on." There's those WORKS! Again!
#1414 " As "sacrifice", the eucharist is also "offered" in reparation (the act or process of making amends)(something done or paid as amends) for the sins of the living and the dead and to obtain spiritual or temporal benefits from God."
1416 " Communion with the body and blood of Christ increases the communicant's union with the Lord, FORGIVES his venial SINS, and preserves him from grave SINS.
_________________________________________________________________
Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy, he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." (the new birth!)
Call upon Him to save you!!
Hebrews 9:12 "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having OBTAINED eternal redemption for us." It is finished!
You guys are crucifying Him over and over ! Can't you see that?
The blood of goats and bulls had to be offered over and over, but not the blood of Jesus the Christ !! God Forbid !!!!
Hebrews 10:12 "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins FOR EVER, SAT DOWN on the right hand of God; henceforth expecting till his enemies be made His footstool." " For by ONE OFFERING he hath perfected FOR EVER them that ARE sanctified." "Whereof, the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us"
You see, he proves to us that we are "sanctified" by giving us the Holy Spirit as a proof and seal unto the day of redemption.
You are still in your sins! Repent and be BORN AGAIN. That which is flesh is flesh, and that which is Spirit is Spirit!
The RCC "followers" do believe that it is the "actual" blood of Christ and that it IS BEING "sacrificed and offered up to God" again and again like inferior blood of an animal, for the forgiveness of sins "offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins".
Look it up yourself if you don't believe me!
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a3.htm#1
J
C.Foegen44. "Posted on behalf of C & C"
Shalom Jay,
You stated:
>>> ok, I finally found the "false doctrine" I was looking for: Catechism of the Catholic Church Article 3
#1393 "for as often as we eat this bread and drink the cup, we proclaim the death of the Lord. If we proclaim the Lord's death, we proclaim the forgiveness of sins. If, as often as his blood is poured out, it is poured for the forgiveness of sins, I should always receive it, so that it may ALWYAYS FORGIVE MY SINS. BECAUSE I ALWAYS SIN, I SHOULD ALWAYS HAVE A REMEDY." >>>
We explained this previoulsy, however it may be beneficial to explain something first, that not all sin is created equal.
The sin within context here is venial (unintentional or sin of weakness) and not mortal (outright disobedience). These two types of sins are well described in Romans 3:
"For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of G-d, they are justified by His Grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, Whom G-d put forward as an expiation by His blood, to be received by faith." Rom.3.22-25
The Greek word used for sin in this case is hamartano (264) and it literally means, "to miss the mark" . It is a different form of sin from that of the next verse-
"This was to show G-d's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over former sins." Rom.3.26.
In this particular case, the word for sins is hamartema (265) which is an act of disobedience to Divine Law or outright disobedience.
Another place where English texts show one word and Greek has more is 1Jn.1.1.8-9:
"If we say that we do not have sin (hamartano, miss the mark) we decieve ourselves and the truth is not with us. If we confess our sin (hamartian-outright), He is faithful and righteous, that He can forgive our sin (amarturos- means poor witness, 267) and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned.
Yet the blood of HaMoshiach covers still another type of sin as it s explained in the previous passage to these:
"the blood of Jesus the Son of Him cleanses us from every sin (hamartolos, sin, sinful, sinner, 268)."1Jn.1.7
It is these same general definitions of sins ( hamartolos ) that HaMoshiach gave the first disciples the power to heal:
"whomever you forgive the sins (hamartolos) they have been forgiven to them; of whomever you hold they have been held." Jn.20.23
The Greek word for intentional sin happens to be that sin which NO person in HaMoshiach can commit (according to 1Jn.3.4-10), yet nothing in Scriptures states we can't make mistakes or even slip into falling short of His glory; and it is these "sins" that are due to ignorance or weakness. It is this form of sin which the Roman Catholic Church states the Eucharist can heal if we abide HaShem's warning through Rav Shual that told is to discern our hearts before going before His Eucharist (1Cor.11.27).
Therefore she is NOT crucifying Him over and over again. This is a Thanksgiving offering/sacrifice and this clearly shows why it is seen and called a Thanksgiving.
Shalom l chiam,
C & C
P 27. " down right electriFRYing"
You have made many statements here that I am looking forwards to hearing C&C's reply about. as soon as they send them to me I will be glad to post them for them.
In the mean time I must ask, Is there some reason that you are so strong about this?
Don't misunderstand, I see the good in them, while you seem to only see the bad. It's not that I don't see some things but, you said >Father Forgive them, So if they ask Him,(they have) Don't you think he will?
Sure He will Judge those few who are spending there time "chasing after the altar boys in the back" but I would hope that he will also see the good in the pure of heart, reguardless of what the ways of there Church are.
29. "RE: down right electriFRYing"
Paul, we are in the Last Days, and as such, "they will believe a lie"
THis LIE is this church!
This RCC is the "Seat of Satan" on the earth.
Ask yourself,
WHat is the biggest, richest, organization on the earth, "seemingly" representing the living God?
Now ask yourself,
WHo is the god of this world? Satan right?
IF you ask the average un-saved person on the street:
Excuse me, could you tell me who you beleive is the Holiest man on the earth right now, and what church is he affiliated with?
You would no doubt, 9 times our of 10 get into a discussion about the RCC and the pope! Right?
My entire family is under the anestesia of this false "angel of light".
They go to church week after week , and are believing that they are ok, as long as they listen to the "church".
If they are told anything contradicting the church that is in the Bible, they side with the church. WHY???
BEcause they are un-regenerated. THey need to hear the gospel, and after hearing it, they will be presented with a choice.
To believe that they need something or to reject it. But they need to hear that choice!
THE catholic "cult" is not preaching the "new life" in Christ. They think that the "born again" in Jn 3, is what happens when you get baptized.
They are believing that they already HAVE the Holy Spirit.
It's kind of like that old songs that says,
"I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see"
The works that are going on in the RCC church as an ABOMINATION to the Lord and to His Christ. JEsus made the ULTIMATE sacrifice on the cross, and the RCC is thumbing its nose in his face. Sacrificing Him over and over to a people that are blind and poor and wretched.
But how will they know unless someone tells them!
COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE.
REad REV. CHPTS 17 & 18.
There is only 1 church on 7 hils that drank the blood of the REAL Saints, (killing C hristians down through the ages and Jews in the name of CHrist!) How long, oh Lord, How long before you avenge our deaths!
The "followers" sit in the pews day after day after day, and they love darkness rather than light. They only hear weak, humanistic stories and man's philosophy!
FAITH COMETH BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD!
There is LIFE and ABUNDANT LIFE in CHrist. THere id freedom and joy!
Not darkness, and incense and dead statues, and candles and spooky voo-doo! This is all the lusts of the flesh, superstition, anxiety, worry, fear!
I just went to a catholic funeral and it was the most morbid thing I have ever seen.
The priest was dead and so were the people there.
He was offering the eucharist up to God in hope of trying to give the dead person salvantion!!!
COME OUT OF THEM MY PEOPLE AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING
Satan comes as an "angel of light"
AMEN and AMEN Brother!!!
J
30. "RE: down right electriFRYing"
another thing Paul,
You keep saying "I see the good in them, while you seem to only see the bad"
I am speaking AGAINST THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CULT!
Not Roman Catholics, they are just blind "followers"!
This so called "church" of Christ is of the Devil!
It says Rev. 3:17 "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing (this is the richest church on the face of the earth! They are their OWN god, and have need of nothing from the Holy Spirit because THEY have taken the power from God and given it to themselves to:
"and knowest not that they are wretched! and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: Christ is counciling their "followers" and so am I to "buy of Him the Gold tried in the fire (REPENT!and call upon the name of the Lord, for whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED and REVEIvE the Holy Spirit)that they may be rich, and white raiment, that they may be clothed, and that the shame of their nakedness no not appear; and annoint their eyes with eyesalve, that they mayest see" I once "was blind, but now I see".
You see, Christ is saying, "you think that you are rich, and because you are increased with goods that God is with you (the "WORLD looks at this "CULT" and says, this MUST be the RIGHT CHURCH becasue look how big and rich it is!!!), and you think that you don't NEED anything else "need of nothing",
THat's the RCC church. Totally self contained. Having a "form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. They have no faith, because they don't read and proclaim the WORD of God. "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"
He is saying, that in REALITY, you are wretched, blind, naked, poor. You are the OPPOSITE! of what you THINK you ARE!!
Satan comes as an "angel of light" when we feed the FLESH with idols and graven images, and likenesses of things in heaven and things on the earth.
YOU (THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CULT) are a FALSE religion, the "blind leading the blind, and you are all falling into a pit"
"there is a way which seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death"
Matt 23:26 " THou blind Pharisees, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter (the heart! REPENT! through the NEW BIRTH, RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT!) that the outside of them may be clean also."
"Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones (homosexuality, fornication, greed, idolatry, the FLESH) and of all uncleanness."
"Woe unto you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous (saint worship, many "holy" places, etc. etc.) and say "if we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets (and true Christians and Jews!)!
"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate!"
Your house is DEAD, DARK,and full of idol worship and the flesh!
The Holy Spirit is not there!
"lest the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should SHINE UNTO THEM"
THE NEW BIRTH "ye MUST be born again"
I Peter 2 "but ye! (if ye be "born-again") are a chosen generation! a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of DARKNESS into his marvellous light"
In Christ (the KING!)
J
31. "RE: down right electriFRYing"
J my brother,
Well I did ask.
>I am speaking AGAINST THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CULT! Not Roman Catholics, they are just blind "followers"!
I guess this was my point. So I say If the RCC has managed to turn a few sinners on to Jesus then I must recall the words of James:5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Or perhaps there Catholic Charities have helped some one.
1Peter:4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
>P, we are in the Last Days, and as such, "they will believe a lie"
And we have been in these "last days" for the past 2000 years.
>Excuse me, could you tell me who you believe is the Holiest man on the earth right now, and what church is he affiliated with? ~~~~the pope! Right?
He's probably Holier than I am. He is totally immersed into Religion He eats, sleeps and breaths it. (This is my attempt to show you humility) The truth is God will decide who is the holiest not me.
>My entire family is under the anesthesia of this false "angel of light". they go to church week after week , and are believing that they are ok, as long as they listen to the "church".
Now this may be the real root of the dilemma.
You seem to be strongly questioning their salvation because you have theological differences with there chosen method of expressing there faith. I know I don't have to remind you of the dangers of this, but I will anyway.(with love) Luke:6:37: Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
>If they are told anything contradicting the church that is in the Bible, they side with the church. WHY???
Why?? It could be as simple as the method you are using to point out these theological differences. You catch more flies with honey and all that.
>They are believing that they already HAVE the Holy Spirit.
Do you know that they don't?
Perhaps because some people express things differently than others leads you to think that the Holy Spirit is not with them.
Is it that they don't throw there hands in the air or some other outwards expression of excitement?
But how will they know unless someone tells them!
Someone has told them, Jesus did remember, Mark:16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
SAVED! what more of them do you (a mere man) require?
I say to you rejoice in their salvation, yes you may hold theological differences that you can discuss with them as we do on this forum but remember to do this with humility and Love. There have always been theological differences from day one. These differences have lead many to kill or be killed over the years. Please don't let these differences come between you and your family (family by blood or family in Christ) Christians, ALL of us are your family.
I will be away for the next week or two but I look forwards to your response.
We may hold different believes but I only advise you from love. as you don't wish to see your family make what you feel so strongly is a mistake because you love them, I don't want to see you make a mistake either.
>they are just blind "followers"!
aren't we all? Amen.
33. "RE: down right electriFRYing"
P,
I Peter 4:8 Is speaking about Love and not the giving of money in the sense that you are using it.It is speaking about the "love" of the brethren. And this love, in the Holy Ghost, is how we "know" and recognize the "brethren". Not love for the "church and it's defyled doctrines of devils".
James 5:19 pertains to what I am attempting to do. To any "brethren", that is any child of God, in the Catholic church, they need to recognize the "error of his/her way" in following "doctrines of devils" and "taking as doctrine the commandments of men" and they will stop grieving the Holy Spirit and they will "know the truth" and be set free from the bondage of "works" and false "doctrines of devils" and stop sinning. Each "child of God" is responsible for reading the word of God and should know what it says. The RCC does not promote and encourage this. How can it, when it is the blind leading the blind?
II Thes 3:6 "Now we command you , brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition (manner, doctrines) which he received of us."
I Timothy 3:6 "If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in word of faith#####and of good DOCTRINE, whereunto thou hast attained." This comes RIGHT after the verses about the Spirit telling us that in the latter times there will come "doctrines of devils" and "forbidding to marry and abstaining from meats".
Paul, you need to get in the battle! Pick up the sword! and contend for the faith! use the word to reprove, and rebuke when you see such blatant false doctrine as is present in the RCC!
Using "judge not lest ye be judeged" in the context that you have used it, shows me that you have no discernment or understanding!
This is a Forum on a Jewish Site! The Jews need to know that the carnal RCC organization is NOT a representation of a TRUE Spirit Filled believer in Christ. The Papacy tried to exterminate the Jews out of Jerusalem! Read the History of the Church! YE SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS! Would you have stood by and said "judge not lest ye be judged" while they were killing true Christians by the thousands? and taking their homes and possetions? WAKE UP PAUL#####You are defending satan's salvation by "works" ideology.
Eph 5:11 says "and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather "reprove them." Let no man deceive you with vain words!
Paul, you are obviously without "understanding" and "conviction" about the word of God. I question your salvation, because you seem to be "blind" and walking in the "vanity of your own mind".
When you get a chance, I would appreciate it if you would "give me an account of the faith that is in you."
On the one hand, you admit that the RCC is wrong in their doctrines and beliefs, but then on the other, you will not step out on the WORD OF GOD and make any solid statement of conviction. Christ prayed that we all be of "one mind", yet you have made statements such as "we may hold different beliefs" and that 's ok!
Different beliefs about minor details is one thing, but the RCC has blatant "doctrines of devils" and they are so steeped in the tradions of men, (and are now reeping what they have sowed) that it is going to take the judgement of God REV 17 &18, to expose the WORLD to it's satanic head!
But the "born again" Holy Spirit filled believer can see their wretchedness clearly and "come out of her my people"! They are "crucifying again" the Lord Jesus Christ. Making His blood of no more effect than that of bulls and goats!
"and EVERY priest standeth daily, offering oftentimes the same sacrifices which can NEVER TAKE AWAY SINS!
There is one Faith- The catholics faith is in the "church" and doing its "works" to save them, the true believer HAS BEEN REDEEMED BY CHRIST through the NEW BIRTH! THis being BORN AGAIN is not understood by the RCC. "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost, in whom the god of this world hath blidned the minds of them which believe not, LEST the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." There is NO POWER of the Holy Spirit going on! Do you tolerate the Mormons and Jehovah Witness as easily as this cult?
You don't think that their obvious "doctrines of devils" are important enough to fight for?
Because of their lack of the Holy Spirit, and "the truth" of the gospel, they explain John Chapter 3 and the "new birth" away as happening during "baby" baptism! See catachism #1238! BLIND GUIDES! LEADING THE LOST INTO A PIT through "their own" understanding. "there is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
P, have YOU been "born again"? Can YOU recall the day, the hour, that you were "changed"? "old things (the life of slavery to sins)pass away, BEHOLD all things become new" ???
One baptism- The catholics have it wrong, or we do, it's black and white. It's not even close! They are practicing the "commandments of men"! If you can't see that, then I MUST wonder about your "eyes to see" and "ears to hear". Enlightenment of the scriptures and conviction and faith comes from the Holy Spirit!
P, when was the last time that a catholic person that you know; and I am sure you know a number of them, as do I, tryed to give you the gospel?
Forget that, when did they try to get you to come to their church and be of the "catholic" faith?? If you TRULY beieve in something as important as heaven and hell, you are concerned for the "lost". That's biblical ! To have concern for the lost is a normal bi-product of the "new birth".
They have a "form" of godliness, but deny the power thereof.
It sound to me like you do too!
You have said to me, "rejoice in (myfamily's)their salvation"?
You assume that they have salvation right? So you believe that everone sitting in pews are saved? What about the "new birth" the "behold! all things become new!" I'm sure the RCC explains that one away in the taking of the "blessed eucharist" or maybe in "praying to Mary, or to the saints" eh?
At the funeral of my uncle, my cousin came up to me, and she goes to Catholic church, and asked me "where is he?" meaning her father.
She has no faith, no peace, no HOLY SPIRIT, because she is NOT SAVED>
You think because you go to the RCC and take the eucharist that you are saved?
That's my point!
This "false" doctrine church has millions of "followers" that are un-saved! How will they be saved unless they hear the GOSPEL? telling them that they need to be BORN AGAIN?
When they hear the "gospel", they are shocked because they have never heard it before!!!!!!
When they RECEIVE Christ, and are "born again" they RUN out of that church and don't want ANYTHING to do with it, because they realize that the HOLY Spirit was/is not there!!!
P, go to the catholic site I posted previously, and read and understand. If you truly are "saved" , the Holy Spirit WILL open your eyes!
II Corinth 11:13 "For such are false APOSTLES, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the APSOTLES of Christ. AND NO MARVEL; for SATAN HIMSELF IS TRANSFORMED INTO AN ANGEL OF LIGHT."
In Christ (the King!)
J
36. " I'm back"
J,
I'm back a bit early and see I have a lot to reply to.
>I Peter 4:8 Is speaking about Love and not the giving of money in the sense that you are using it.
I know this, and that is how I intended it. I don't know how you took it to be about money.
>James 5:19 pertains to what I am attempting to do.
O.K.
I don't know why I find myself trying to defend this side of our discussion, but never the less here I am. For the most part I was only trying to point out the difference between the followers and the leaders, (and I think that we agree on this). I did notice the anger in your posts and was trying to point out to you that even the RCC was not all bad. (To this you will reply that the 'ol snake when seen as an angle of light is not all bad either).
>II Thes 3:6 "Now we command you , brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly,~~ & Eph 5:11 says "and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather "reprove them." Let no man deceive you with vain words!
We will have to withdraw from everyone then. I'll leave the rebuking for the hell fire and brimstone preachers.
>Paul, you need to get in the battle! Pick up the sword! and contend for the faith! use the word to reprove, and rebuke when you see such blatant false doctrine as is present in the RCC!
I have a hard enough time in the battle with the un-saved than to try to bring contention to the saved even if they are misguided. My ministry is dedicated more to finding those who have fallen away or lost there faith. As a fisher of men I just catch 'um He cleans them.
>Using "judge not lest ye be judeged" in the context that you have used it, shows me that you have no discernment or understanding!
I may understand more than you think I do. But I fault you not for thinking so.
>This is a Forum on a Jewish Site! The Jews need to know that the carnal RCC organization is NOT a representation of a TRUE Spirit Filled believer in Christ.
True the RCC is not a representation of ALL true Spirit Filled believers in Christ. I'm sure that they know that we don't think that only one Jewish sect represents the only true Jewish Faith.
>Paul, you are obviously without "understanding" and "conviction" about the word of God.
Sorry but it is my understanding that leads to my conviction in taking a stand that there will be saved among many different Christian denominational Faiths. You see I was raised in a Faith that believed that they were the only ones to be saved (for many reasons, but mostly the name on the sign in front of the building) But now I see that just as many of them may be lost because they are so judgmental and just as many of all Faiths may be saved.
>I question your salvation,
(see above)
> because you seem to be "blind" and walking in the "vanity of your own mind".
Please define my vanity, so that I may understand.
>When you get a chance, I would appreciate it if you would "give me an account of the faith that is in you."
As I said above My ministry is dedicated more to finding those who have fallen away or lost there faith. I see myself more as a Chaplin than Preacher. Preachers and Pastors are more into maintaining the flock. I work in the lost and found dept. When I find someone who has been away from God I only try to get them back on the right path. HE will take it from there. I have in the course of discussions told people to seek there personal Salvation in the parking lot of there local wallmart while others I have told to return to there own Church (As long as they know that they are to be first and foremost Christian and not denominational). The Holy Spirit gives me the ability to discern who to tell what to at the time. The Church does not save you, you save the Church! If I can only get someone to Pray again He will take over from there.
>On the one hand, you admit that the RCC is wrong in their doctrines and beliefs, but then on the other, you will not step out on the WORD OF GOD and make any solid statement of conviction.
On this you are correct. I see things that I perceive to be wrong and I question their ways and as I said I don't know why I find myself trying to defend this side of our discussion. I have a very limited understanding of the RCC's position on many things, The things I have questioned there have been some acceptable answers and some not. This is not my quest to change them. If it is yours As I tried to point out to you in my last post to you, do it with kindness, not anger.
Christ prayed that we all be of "one mind", yet you have made statements such as "we may hold different beliefs" and that 's ok!
It doesn't look like that Prayer has been answered yet, And yes I still say that until then, don't sweat the theological. Salvation is not about theology it's about Faith in Jesus. The Holy Spirit will be the guide as to what one believes.
>Do you tolerate the Mormons and Jehovah Witness as easily as this cult?
Yes!
>P, have YOU been "born again"? Can YOU recall the day, the hour, that you were "changed
Yes, I remember very well thank you.
One baptism- The Catholics have it wrong
Perhaps, but then again if I choose to I can find faults with every denomination just as with each individual. All Churches are made up of mere men, as all men are imperfect how then could a group of them be right in every thing.
>P, when was the last time that a catholic person that you know; and I am sure you know a number of them, as do I, tried to give you the gospel? Forget that, when did they try to get you to come to their church and be of the "catholic" faith??
I think it was last August. I was away on a service call to New Orleans and had a day to kill so I went fishing (for fish this time) I began talking to another man there, he too was there on business and away from his home. We almost at the same time ask each other about our Faiths and the discussion was on. He was ready to leave to go to Mass and invited me, so I went and had a good time worshiping the Lord (yes I could have done that in my hotel room) the only thing that bothered me was that when it came time for the Lord's Supper, I was not invited because I was not Catholic. We talked for hours and at the end of it all, we blessed each other and I went my way and my newly found brother went his way. You see in our eyes we had found a new brother not an advocacy. I know that you won't understand that.
>You have said to me, "rejoice in (my family's)their salvation"?
You assume that they have salvation right?
And I see that you assume they don't. Why should I doubt their salvation? I don't know their heart, only God knows that.
>So you believe that everyone sitting in pews are saved?
ALL, no. but I am NOT their Judge. There are probably a few drunks sitting on a bar stool that are saved too.
>At the funeral of my uncle, my cousin came up to me, and she goes to Catholic church, ] and asked me "where is he?" meaning her father.
It sounds like you told her "You think because you go to the RCC and take the Eucharist that you are saved" I hope you didn't tell her that your uncle went straight to hell, Did you?
>This "false" doctrine church has millions of "followers" that are un-saved!
And the Baptist don't????? (or what ever other denomination)
> How will they be saved unless they hear the GOSPEL?
As the other Paul said 2000 years ago, Preach the Gospel, and only if necessary use words. (paraphrased) He meant to preach by example.
>When they hear the "gospel", they are shocked because they have never heard it before!!!!!! When they RECEIVE Christ, and are "born again" they RUN out of that church and don't want ANYTHING to do with it,
Yes some do, some of the best Christian Preachers I have ever heard were raised Catholic and make very convincing arguments against the RCC and there are some of the most fired up pentacostal Preachers converting to the Catholic Church every day too. However I choose to bless rather than to damn.
>P, go to the catholic site I posted previously, and read and understand. If you truly are "saved" , the Holy Spirit WILL open your eyes!
And then next week it may be the Mormons that some one wishes me to search for there faults and question my salvation if I don't stand up and give them a good 'ol fashion hell fire and brimstone bashing. One could spend there hole life searching the different Faiths looking for faults and only after a full understanding of each of there differences could one truly say that they have not found a one that is perfect.
I will question things that I see in any Faith and will discuss there different views. I will try to use the Holy Spirit to guide me in deciding what it right or wrong. But, I will not damn someone for their Faith. I only wanted you to rethink your style of spreading the word, not the content so much, Yes the RCC could use a change here and there. If there Theology were correct in every thing perhaps so many people would not need to have them explain so much and we would all be Catholics, but I only wish to have people to understand that salvation is dependent on there Faith in Jesus not there Church. If they choose to attend this Church or that Church, well that is surely better than some of the places they could choose to spend there time.
38. "RE: I'm back"
P,
I am curious. Could you tell me how and when you received Christ as your savior?
And also, tell me if you don't mind, how you believe a Mormon believes they will go to heaven and who they believe Christ is.
The same for a#####Jehovah's Witness?
Thanks,
J
39. "curious. "
>I am curious. Could you tell me how and when you received Christ as your savior?
Sure, Why not.
My life story's not much different than many others. I was taken to Church by my Grandmother every time they met. It was the Church of Christ. From before I could walk, talk and think for my self. As time passed and I grew up I had heard the Pastors preaching the word all my life. When I became aware that I had reached the "age of accountability" (for me this was the age of 9). After much thought of the matter (as I recall I could think of nothing else for about a month) I then followed the steps that I had been taught, (I would say to "be saved" but this denomination does not believe that one is saved until they are actually in Heaven). These steps are very simple, one must 1st, Hear the word-- (that Jesus died for our sins) 2, believe-- that Jesus lived, died and was resurrected. 3, Repent-- of one's sins.(turn away from sin) 4, confess-- one's self a sinner. 5, Be Baptized-- fully immersed, in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. 6, Live as best you can-- until He comes back for His own or 'till you die which ever comes first. At that time you would be judged and would hear Him say "well done, enter". or "depart, I never knew you".
After I had decided to give my life to Him I took the Pastor "alter call" It was a Sunday night in July in fact it was on the 4th and went down to the front pew while the congregation sang the old song "I surrender all" I told the Pastor that I wanted to be Baptized. He announced this request to the congregation after he had ask me if I believed that Jesus died for my sins and I then was Prayed over by the congregation asking the Lord to forgive my sins and accept me as one of His children. (HE did) I then went to the backroom and prepared for and was Baptized that very hour. As Church let out, we went outside just in time to see the 4th of July fireworks that the city was shooting almost overhead, (I took that as a sign).
As for the Mormons and Jehovah's Witness or Baptists or Catholics or the Church of Christ or any other CHRISTIAN denomination (I have not studied each of these Faiths that could take a lifetime)and as I have been saying all along there will be things (sometimes many things) that one will not agree with. This then becomes a personal decision to be a part of that group or not, as long as you are first and foremost following Jesus and not a denomination.
I thank God that I will be judged for what is in my heart, not what the group I hang around with thinks.
P
40. "RE: curious. "
Thank you,
You have confirmed what I already suspected.
In Christ,
J
41. "RE: curious. "
You have confirmed what I already suspected.
O.K. I'll bite,
What did you suspect?
J 42. "RE: curious. "
P,
You have not heard, nor have you wanted to hear, nor are you able to hear what I have been saying all along. You are speaking dogmatically about subjects that you know (or understand) very little about, without conviction/understainding of the WORD of God. Your last post revealed much to me, and I refuse to continue to "spar" with you, "knowing that it genders strifes".
While I feel that I have been too forcefull in some cases, I stand behind EVERY doctrine I have expounded upon on this subject! You on the other hand, have continued in your own "middle of the road" way, to defend ALL other "christian" churches, and now have shown your hand by including cults that are even more clearly in error (if that is possible) than the RCC!
I say this in love; you have no understanding of the times in which we are living or the "principalities of darkness" which we are (or should be) battling. This "clarity" can only come from one place, the Holy Spirit and its enlightening of the WORD.
I feel that you should seriously re-consider your "salvation".
You have said that "this denomination does not consider one saved until they are in heaven". The WORD says in Titus 3:5 "but according to His mercy He saved us, BY THE WASHING OF REGENERATION, AND RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST" This happens NOW, here on earth, when you become KNOWN by Him! and are "born again" ! (John Chpt.3)
You then said that "at that time' meaning when you have died and are being "judged", you will be either told, enter in, or "I never knew you". You don't know for sure do you?
You do not know FOR SURE if you are KNOWN by the Lord. That is obvious. You also stated that the "congregation" prayed over you to the Lord, asking Him to forgive your sins and "accept me as one of His children". This cannot happen. Only YOU can PRAY to be saved, REPENT and BELIEVE.
And this "sense that you are KNOWN and KNOW the Lord only comes from the "comforter", the Holy Spirit. "My sheep KNOW my voice." That is why He is called the "comforter", because He gives us the "PROOF" by the life changing event of the New Birth, the in-dwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT, and PEACE of knowing that we are saved. A "lack of" this peace and confidence points to a "head knowledge of Christ, which is based on our "works" and not by the actual act of God in the receiving of the Holy Spirit in the life changing event of the NEW BIRTH! When this happens, you KNOW it! You KNOW that you have passed from death unto life! ..................."was blind, but now I see!"
Eph. 1:13 "in whom also, after that you believed, ye were SEALED with that Holy Spirit of promise." and II Corinth. 1:22 "Who hath SEALED us, and given the "earnest" of the Spirit in our hearts". II Corinth. 5:5 "Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the "earnest" of the Spirit. ("earnest", Strong's Concordance #728,=money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid) The receiving of the Holy Spirit is the act of SEALING us and this "conforter" witnesses to our spirit that we have been saved.
Have you been "born again"? My spirit and the Holy Spirit tell me NO. Don't let your pride in your OWN understanding and life (Jer. 17), keep you from considering that you might not be SAVED yet! Our talks may be for a reason! I am not trying to be Right and you Wrong! Based on what you have told me for the last month or so and your lack of "understanding and conviction", I am being honest with you Paul. You need to consider the possiblity that there is still something that you have not RECEIVED yet!
I feel that I have contended for the faith on this subject long enough, and this will be my last post.
I leave you with verses that I feel honeslty pertain to you Paul. Please consider all that I have said, as I have considered what you have said, in light of the WORD.
Those verses are: II Tim 2:23-26.
Shalom,
J
43. "RE: curious. "
J,
>~~on this subject long enough, and this will be my last post.
Yes this thread has gone about as far as is needed and I will close also with this last reply.
>and I refuse to continue to "spar" with you , "knowing that it genders strifes".
And you say,
>While I feel that I have been too forceful in some cases
I was only trying to point out to you, that this "forcefulness" was also causing strife, and not going to get you to your goal of changing the RCC. I see that you now seem to understand this (my job is done)
>I stand behind EVERY doctrine I have expounded upon on this subject! You on the other hand, have continued in your own "middle of the road" way, to defend ALL other "Christian" churches
Yes, and this sounds like we disagree but this is not a major conflict and matters little.
>you have no understanding of the times in which we are living or the "principalities of darkness" which we are (or should be) battling. This "clarity" can only come from one place, the Holy Spirit and its enlightening of the WORD.
Perhaps the Holy Spirit has not given me this talent, but instead gave it to you. You may in fact be dressed for battle while as I said before, I work in the lost and found dept.
>I feel that you should seriously re-consider your "salvation".
No need! I only gave you the story of my early Church life. Much has transpired over the last 40 years since then.
>You have said that "this denomination ~ ~ ~
As I am sure that you picked up on the fact that I am no longer a follower of this denomination, mainly for the reasons that you stated, but thanks for the info, it may help a reader of our posts understand.
>You also stated that the "congregation" prayed over you to the Lord, asking Him to forgive your sins and "accept me as one of His children". This cannot happen. Only YOU can PRAY to be saved, REPENT and BELIEVE.
Oh trust me, I was also Praying. And had been for some time. (still do)
>You need to consider the possibility that there is still something that you have not RECEIVED yet!
This is true. I have not as yet moved in to that Heavenly home that He went to prepare for me. But this can only be done after my death and I think that there are still things that I am to do here on this rock yet.
>I leave you with verses that I feel honestly pertain to you ~ Those verses are: II Tim 2:23-26.
Thank you, I've tried to point out to you the verse above this.(II Tim 2:22)
Read 'ya later,
P
32. " C & C"
C & C may have a reply in the works but have not sent it to me as of yet. I will be away for the next week of two so perhaps someone could post it for them or I will when I get back.
If someone would care to post for them untill I returm please respond, they will see it.
35. "RE: C & C"
Here's an update on the "voo-doo" of the#####Catholic cult!
I just read an article dated 12/19/02 by Philip Pullella called "Pope to move Mother Teresa closer to sainthood" in Reuters.
And I Quote:
"The official acceptance of the miracle of a woman's cancer being cured after she "prayed to Mother Teresa" means the nun, who was known as the "saint of the gutter", will likely be beatified next year."
"Bersa was 30 in 1998, a year after the nun died, when she held an aluminum medal blessed by Mother Teresa to her stomach and "prayed to the nun". "The next day, my tumor was gone."
What a bunch of superstition!
I read an article a month or so ago about this "supposed" miracle! It said that the woman's family was pressured and encouraged to come forward after the woman, who was being treated for this growth with strong cancer and tumor shrinkage medicines, claimed that she used the "mystery" medal. Her husband was not in agreement , but it was rumored that money exchanged hands for the testimony.
COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE! This is clearly the world, the flesh , and the devil!
"There is one mediator between man and God, the man , Jesus Christ."
In Christ (the King!)
J
