Here is an example of how a person who calls himself "Big Brother" [bb] goes about discussing 2x2 origins. The following are excerpts from an exchange on the Common Ground Discussion Board December, 2001. (Emphasis added to his statements are mine)
[bb] As a professing person in fellowship with the friends and workers in the U.S. for over 25 years, I have recently enjoyed visiting the following website. The founder of this website is a very good personal professing friend of mine that I've known for over 20 years. I highly recommend this website for those who would like to learn about the fellowship from a professing person, instead of an ex-professing person. Enjoy! B.B.
http://sites.hsprofessional.com/hobarker/Topicsinbible.html
To Shep:
In regards to the website mentioned here, and Nate, I suggest you take up all concerns with its contents with Nate. It is not my website, and I am not Nate's personal spokesman. I have not read everything on his website, nor do I have the time. Nate's website is his own project. It is not endorsed by the friends, workers or the church. Nate is on his own with his website.
Nate loves the fellowship he is a part of. He was a worker for several years. He tried his best then, and I believe he is trying his best now. Nate was raised a Catholic in Vietnam. I think Nate has a right to say whatever he wants to about the Catholics and his experience of being one, since that is part of his past life and his testimony. Just as you speak about your experience with once having professed and then leaving and going back to the Catholics, I think Nate should be free to talk about leaving the Catholics, and coming to fellowship with the friends and workers. I know you do not like the anti-Catholic stuff, but there is plenty of that in this world and on this board, just as there is plenty against the church of the friends and workers. So, I can't change that for you.
You say that I have not changed, and that is correct. I still support my friends and workers. And, you, likewise, have not changed. You still come to this board that is meant to be a discussion of the so called 2x2 church and doctrine, and you and your Catholic friend, Clay, come to talk about the Catholic Church and doctrine, and apparently hope to convert dissatisfied professing people, and "exes" to become Catholics? I can only assume that is your hidden agenda. You hope to pick up a few converts on the board, is my guess?
I know we discussed this before, and that's what I still believe. I frankly, don't have as much time as you to attend these boards, do all this online research on scriptures, which the Catholics apparently have some easy to use online tools to help you quickly find scriptures to support your Catholic point of view.
I have professed for over 25 years, and don't feel a great need to have to post lots of verses or answer all questions to explain what I believe, since I am quite settled into what I am doing. I am quite accepting of that fact that there are those who are for and against what I believe, and I don't think I can do much of anything to convert any or all of them to how I believe. And, that is not my agenda. I am just here for a little online interaction. I have no plans to convert anyone.
And, I see in the last post of that thread, you used a little profanity of your own in the comment of making an *ass* and of *u* or *me*, which I see means that you think I *assume* things. Be careful, or you'll have everyone mad at your vulgarity, and will have to end up posting apologies everywhere, like me!
I wonder if Debbie will reprimand you for it? Probably not, since you are probably one of the "pet posters of the month" on the board with the cute smiling picture.
Bottomline, if you don't like Nate's website, then you should take that up with him. Don't waste your time complaining about it to me.
[Clay] It is amazing to me how people only see what they want to see; for example, bb "highly recommends" Nate's site, yet he won't specifically discuss Nate's ridiculous successionist statements. I don't think Shep is unreasonable, after learning that bb "highly recommends" the site, to ask bb for some actual original thoughts on the subjects mentioned there.
Also, as bb has been told over and over, Shep's and my presence here is to discuss things we feel like discussing, either about Catholic issues usually initiated by someone else, or from our Catholic perspective. Despite taking vulgar liberties with RAM's nickname, bb pretends to be offended by Shep's cautionary statement about assuming anything, which I find contradictory at best. Not assuming to know why anyone is here is probably the best approach. I do not claim the ability to convert anyone; however, I claim the right to point out the erroneous information being imbibed by Nate and others who seriously think his site is a scholarly work.
The problem is that Nate is simply unwilling and/or incapable of defending his statements. He has been challenged over and over, but he will not, and being "quite settled into what I am doing" is just a lame capitulation to actual truth. As a busy physician, my time is just as important to me as anyone else's - the difference is that I take the time and effort to provide input and support any statements that I make, and then attempt to defend any disagreements. In my opinion, this is the sign of someone who is not afraid of the truth.
[bb] i am too busy. and, clay, just because you are a busy doctor and still have time or want to spend time with all this stuff, doesn't mean that everyone else shares the same hobby. and, that doesn't mean that they can't argue and debate and hold their own ground if they wanted to.
[Clay] Let's review. A person (Nate) has made false statements regarding 2x2 apostolic succession; therefore, Nate has already presented himself as someone who "can" discuss the issues he raised. It does not seem unreasonable to expect him (and you) to continue to in the manner in which he began. Yet, he (and you), continually refuses. Enough said.
[bb] i like to choose my battles and wars. and, this is not one that i care to enter into right now. don't have the time. i'm more interested in reading about the taliban and that war, in the newspapers right now.
[Clay] I do that, too. You see, I'm able to do more than one thing at a time.
[bb] if you are really that busy of a physician, i would hate to have one of my patients get sicker or drop dead, because i was spending too much time on the PMB, insteading of with my patients. if i knew that my doctor was spending this much time, like you to, here, i would find a new doctor. i would want one that is dedicated to his patients, doing research on the internet when necessary, but not wasting much time on the PMB, during breaks between patients during normal business hours. to me, that would be my doctor's first responsibility.
[Clay] Now we've started again on the personal attacks? Very lame, bb. Instead of discussing things in an adult manner, you have chosen to call my abilities as a physician into question, even though I doubt you know anything about what it takes to be a physician? As I've stated before, I take the time to do the things which are important to me, which includes taking care of my patients, as well as my family, keeping up with current events, going to church, changing the oil in my car, flossing my teeth daily........
Perhaps your evasions and ad hominem attacks are really your emotionally constipated way of admitting that you simply do not know how to have an honest disagreement with another adult.
may you find peace,
P.S. To continue your hypothetical statement - if your attitude toward Shep, myself, and others here was how you behaved in my clinic, I would have fired you as a patient a long time before you would have thought about finding a new doctor.
[bb] Based on your comments and attitude, I wouldn't choose you as my personal physician to begin with, therefore, you could never "fire" me as you patient. I want a doctor who can work well under pressure, and your comments reflect that you stress out when things don't go your own way. you mention personal attacks, and then you prescribe some of your own. So, i see that doctors, find it easier to prescribe bitter medicine, and to give shots with big long needles, than to take them. I do appreciate what it takes to become a doctor. I know several professing people, and unprofessing, who are physicians, such as dentists, urologists, surgeons, general practioners, etc. I know enough about it, that I wouldn't want the pressure and personal liability, so I would probably choose another profession. However, I do appreciate the concept of want to help others, so I respect those who are indeed sincere and honest in looking out for their patients personal well being and preventative measures. I am concerned about you as a doctor and as someone on this board, because you don't know how to accept no, when I or maybe a patient says, "no." If I don't want to engage in your argument, then you should not force me to. If the patient does not want to take the medicine, the surgery, the chemo, then I would hope that you would not try to pressure and force your patient to do as you wish? Don't you give your patients the right whether to accept your advice and treatment or not? Or do you pressure and force them into doing what you want them to do? Therefore, should I not have the same right on this board? I think so.
We are just discussing things here, so let's not get too defensive about comments and this interaction.
[Clay] The fact that you think knowing someone who is a physician qualifies you to make assessments about my clinical acumen is laughable. I am in the habit of thinking and acting quickly (which includes my participation on this board), so let me know when you decide to actually discuss the original issue, which was, to remind you, 2x2 origins.
[bb] If and when I need your services as a physician, or as a Bible scholar and historian on the origins of my own faith, I shall let you know. At this time, I am not in need of either. Thank you. Big brother
[Clay] As is often the case both in medicine and religion, there is a discrepancy between what people "need" and what they "want"..................
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