The Mystery of Babylon and the Mother of the Harlots, Part II



[Nate] (Revelation 13:1-7) And I, (John the Apostle), stood on the sand of the sea, and saw a Beast (Government) rise up out of the Sea (Mass of humanity), having seven (7) heads (Completeness) and ten (10) horns (World Power as a whole), and upon his horns ten (10) crowns and on his heads the name of Blasphemy!
[Clay] First of all, Nate assumes that this person is John the Apostle, when absolutely nowhere does he identify himself as such. How ironic that Nate is actually relying on the extrabiblical tradition of the Catholic fathers like Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Hippolytus! Second, the beast symbolizes the Roman Empire (which is NOT the same as the Catholic Church), and the 7 heads represent all (completeness) of the pagan Roman emperors. The blasphemous names are the titles assumed by them; for example, Domitian, like Antiochus IV Epiphanes (Dan 7:8-25), who demanded that he be called by such titles as “our lord and god” and “Jupiter”.
[Nate] The Beast (government) which I saw was like unto the Leopard (Savage); and his feet were as the feet of the Bear (Cruelty); and his mouth as the mouth of the a Lion (Fear): and the Dragon GAVE him his Power, and his Seat and Great Authority...It was given to him (the Beast) to make War with the Saints, and to overcome them: and Power was given him over All inhabitants of the earth, who will worship the Beast, All whose names are not written in the book of life...
[Clay] This beast combines the 4 features of the beast in Daniel 7 - the imagery is applied in Revelation to the pagan Roman empire, the persecutor of the church. The Great Sea is the primordial ocean beneath the earth thought to contain various monsters (Is 27:1, Jb 7:12), especially mythical monsters symbolizing the chaos which God had vanquished in ancient times (Jb 9:13, Jb 26:13). The representation of the Babylonian Empire as a Winged Lion, a common motif in Babylonian art and symbolizes the bestial power hostile to God. The Bear represents the Median empire, its three tusks symbolizing its destructive nature. The Leopard, used to symbolize the swiftness with which Cyrus the Persian established his kingdom.
[Nate] The Red Dragon in (Revelation 12: 9-17 ) is Cleary [sic] Satan who Deceives the Whole World..
[Clay] The dragon being defeated is indeed Satan. The hymn of victory in verses 10-12 both celebrates Michael’s victory and serves as a warning to those on earth; the defeated, angry dragon will be even more severe in his persecution of the woman and her children on earth.
[Nate] (Rev. 13) introduces us to Two Beasts, through which Satan establishes control over the multitudes of earth's people. The First beast seems to be a Political Figure, and the Second beast appears to be a Religious Figure. Both receive their Power and Direction from Satan, the Great Deceiver and Imitator.
[Clay] The dragon’s authority comes to rest in 2 beasts, one from the sea and one from the earth. The beasts symbolize the antichrist and the false prophets of the end time in Jewish apocalyptic visions at the same time as they are the final embodiment of imperial power opposed to the rule of God, the final beast of Daniel’s visions. Ezra 4 depicts pagan Rome as a great eagle emerging from the sea, and the sea indicates that the beast embodies the watery chaos monster of ancient Near Eastern mythology, the primordial source of all evil. The second beast is described in terms of the false prophets (cf 16:13, 19:20, 20:10) who accompany the false messiahs (the first beast); cf Mt 24:24, Mk 13:22, 2 Thes 2:9, Dt 13:2-4. Christians had either to worship the emperor and his image or suffer martyrdom.
[Nate] However, the resemblance to the Leopard, Bear, and Lion may very well be in Nonphysical Characteristics, such as being a Cunning hunter, someone who Camouflages himself well in his setting.
[Clay] See the above description of the 4 beasts of the Roman empire as described in Daniel 7.
[Nate] The great Whore or Prostitute (Rev. 17:1) who sits on Many Waters, is the worldwide ecumenical religious system that develops during the Gentiles area [sic], the gospel of Grace (31/2 years, 42 months, 1260 days) and is led by the false prophets (who receives his power from Satan). Her name is Mystery of Babylon the Great (Rev. 17:5). The Many waters are the multitude of People on the earth who are deceived and led into Spiritual adultery through this Worldly religion, which requires worshiping the Antichrist instead of the One True Christ.
[Clay] 42 months is the exact duration of the vicious persecution of the Jews by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (Dan 7:25, 12:7); this persecution of 3 ½ years became the prototype of periods of trial for God’s people (cf Lk 2:25, James 5:17. The reference here is to the persecution by the pagan Romans. A case could also be made for apostate Jerusalem being Babylon, because Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem. When His side was pierced, blood and water flowed out - the water represents baptism, through which we are saved. The waters could also represent the Port of Caesarea built by Herod in nearby Palestine.
[Nate] The angel makes this clear to John the Apostle in (A.D.95) (Rev. 17: 5) " the waters you Saw, where the Prostitute sits, Are People, Multitudes, Nations and Languages." The Prostitute (the false prophets and the entire ungodly system) is seated on a scarlet beast (the Empire in which the Great whore plays an important part), with seven (7) heads (Completeness) and ten (10) horns (World Power, as a Whole) covered with blasphemous names.
[Clay] King Herod the Edomite falsely claimed to be King David’s successor. (Edom means red, referring to Esau’s successors). This is why the beast in Revelation 17 is scarlet. The relationship between the harlot (apostate Jerusalem) and the scarlet beast (King Herod), on whom she is seated, is confirmed in the Acts of the Apostles, where Jewish leaders are shown attacking Christians (7: 54 -60, 14: 4-6, 19 , 17: 5 -7) In fact, Jesus had prophesied in John 16:2 that His followers would be kicked out of the synagogue:

Acts 4:26-28: " ‘The kings of the earth took their stand and the princes gathered together against the Lord and against his anointed.’ Indeed they gathered in this city against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed, Herod and Pontius Pilate, together with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do what your hand and (your) will had long ago planned to take place."

Acts 12:1-3, 19, 21-23 "About that time King Herod laid hands upon some members of the church to harm them. He had James, the brother of John, killed by the sword, and when he saw that this was pleasing to the Jews he proceeded to arrest Peter also. (It was (the) feast of Unleavened Bread.) ?A Herod, after instituting a search but not finding him, ordered the guards tried and executed. Then he left Judea to spend some time in Caesarea?H On an appointed day, Herod, attired in royal robes, (and) seated on the rostrum, addressed them publicly. The assembled crowd cried out, ‘This is the voice of a god, not of a man.’ At once the angel of the Lord struck him down because he did not ascribe the honor to God, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last."
[Nate] The False prophet and her idolatrous Religious System---Mystery Babylon--- is dressed in Purple and Scarlet and fine Jewels, the Pay received for her prostitution. Purple and Scarlet are often the colors worn by Rulers and Religious Leaders, and the fine Jewels likely represented the Wealth the false religion collects and lavishes selfishly on the false prophets.
[Clay] Dave Hunt (and therefore, Nate) states, "She [the Whore] is clothed in ‘purple and scarlet’ (verse 4), the colors of the Catholic clergy." He then cites the Catholic Encyclopedia to show that bishops wear certain purple vestments and cardinals wear certain red vestments. He (and therefore, Nate) ignores the obvious symbolic meaning of the colors-purple for royalty and red for the blood of Christian martyrs. Instead, he is suddenly literal in his interpretation. He understood well enough that the woman symbolizes a city and that the fornication symbolizes something other than literal sex, but now he wants to assign the colors a literal, earthly fulfillment in a few vestments of certain Catholic clergy. Purple and red are not the dominant colors of Catholic clerical vestments. White is. All priests wear white (including bishops and cardinals when they are saying Mass)-even the pope does so.

The purple and scarlet of the Whore are contrasted with the white of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ (Rev. 19:8). This is a problem for Hunt for three reasons: (a) we have already noted that the dominant color of Catholic clerical vestments is white, which would identify them with New Jerusalem if the color is taken literally; (b) the clothing of the Bride is given a symbolic interpretation ("the righteous acts of the saints;" 19:8); implying that the clothing of the Whore should also be given a symbolic meaning; and (c) the identification of the Bride as New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12, 21:2, 10) suggests that the Whore may be old (apostate) Jerusalem-a contrast used elsewhere in Scripture (Gal. 4:25-26). Hunt ignores the liturgical meaning of purple and red in Catholic symbolism. Purple symbolizes repentance, and red honors the blood of Christ and the Christian martyrs. It is appropriate for Catholic clerics to wear purple and scarlet, if for no other reason because they have been liturgical colors of the true religion since ancient Israel.

Hunt neglects to remind his readers that God commanded that scarlet yarn and wool be used in liturgical ceremonies (Lev. 14:4, 6, 49-52; Num. 19:6), and that God commanded that the priests’ vestments be made with purple and scarlet yarn (Ex. 28:4-8, 15, 33, 39:1-8, 24, 29).

So, this passage tells us several things about the Whore:
(1) She is an international power, since she "sits on many waters," representing different peoples (17:15), and she has committed fornication with "the kings of the earth," and she has inflamed "the dwellers on earth" with her fornication.
(2) She is connected with the seven-headed Beast from Revelation 13:1-10. That Beast was a major pagan empire, since its symbolism combined animal elements from four other major pagan empires (compare Rev. 13:1-2 with Dan. 7:1-8).
(3) The Woman is connected with royalty, since she is dressed in the royal color purple.
(4) The Woman is rich, for she is "bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup."
(5) She has committed some kind of fornication, which in Scripture is often a symbol of false religion-lack of fidelity to the God who created heaven and earth.
(6) She is symbolically known as Babylon.
(7) She is a central cause of "abominations" in the land, abominations being a reference to practices, especially religious practices, that are offensive to God. And
(8) she persecutes Christians "the saints and . . . martyrs of Jesus."

While the rest of her description could refer to a number of things, the symbolic designation "Babylon" narrows it down to two: pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem. It is well known that the early Church Fathers referred to pagan Rome as "Babylon"; however, there are also indications in Revelation that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Historically, a number of commentators, both Protestant and Catholic, have adopted this interpretation. (CA)
[Nate] She is holding a golden cup filled with abominations and filthiness.
[Clay] Hunt states that the Whore "has ‘a golden cup [chalice] in her hand, full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.’" This is another reference to Revelation 17:4. Then he states that the "Church is known for its many thousands of gold chalices around the world." To make the Whore’s gold cup suggestive of the Eucharistic chalice, Hunt inserts the word "chalice" in square brackets, though the Greek word here is the ordinary word for cup (poterion), which appears thirty-three times in the New Testament and is always translated "cup." He ignores the fact that the Catholic chalice is used in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper-a ritual commanded by Christ (Luke 22:19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25); he ignores the fact that the majority of Eucharistic chalices Catholics use are not made out of gold, but other materials, such as brass, silver, glass, and even earthenware; he ignores the fact that gold liturgical vessels and utensils have been part of the true religion ever since ancient Israel-again at the command of God (Ex. 25:38-40, 37:23-24; Num. 31:50-51; 2 Chr. 24:14); and he again uses a literal interpretation, according to which the Whore’s cup is not a single symbol applying to the city of Rome, but a collection of many literal cups used in cities throughout the world. But Revelation tells us that it’s the cup of God’s wrath that is given to the Whore (Rev. 14:10; cf. Rev. 18:6). This has nothing to do with Eucharistic chalices. (CA)
[Nate] She is the Mother of ALL abomination, and is drunk with the Blood of the Saints. Here again we see Satan, the Great Imitator, at work trying to make his Lamb/Beast LOOK and ACT like the Bride of Christ.
[Clay] Hunt states, "John next notices that the woman is drunk-not with alcohol but with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus . . . [cf. verse 6]." He then advances charges of brutality and killing by the Inquisitions, supposed forced conversions of nations, and even the Nazi holocaust! This section of the book abounds with historical errors, not the least of which is his implication that the Church endorses the forced conversion of nations. The Church emphatically does not do so. It has condemned forced conversions as early as the third century (before then they were scarcely even possible), and has formally condemned them on repeated occasions, as in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 160, 1738, 1782, 2106-7).

But pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem do fit the description of a city drunk with the blood of saints and the martyrs of Jesus. And since they were notorious persecutors of Christians, the original audience would have automatically thought of one of these two as the city that persecutes Christians, not an undreamed-of Christian Rome that was centuries in the future. (CA)

[Nate] Ministers became Priests. The term "Priest" was not applied to Christian ministers before A.D. 200. It was borrowed from the Jewish system, and from the example of heathen Priesthood. (Leo I 440-461) Prohibited priests from marrying and Celibacy of priests became a law of the Roman Church.
[Clay] Wrong - the word "priest" is merely an English contraction of the Greek word presbyteros (which is sometimes translated as "elder"), whose authority is seen in the "Christian system" in 1 Tim 5:17, James 5:14-15, Acts 15:2-6, 21:18; Hebrews 11:2, and 1 Peter 5:1. The notion of a celibate magisterium is quite biblical (Matthew 19:12, 1 Corinthians 7) - for a more detailed examination of celibacy click here. Also, before Nate gets too carried away, he would do well to remember that workers are celibate, too!.
[Nate] The Papacy is an Italian Institution. It arose on the Ruins of the Roman Empire, in the name of Christ occupying the Throne of the Caesars, a Revile [sic] of the Image of the Roman Empire inheriting the Spirit thereof; "The Ghost of the Roman Empire come to Life in the Grab of Christianity."
[Clay] Wrong - the papacy is an institution that was instituted by Christ (Mt 16:16-19) in Peter (Lk 22:32, Jn 21:15-17, Acts 15) and his successors (Acts 1:20, Acts 14:23, 2 Tim 2:2, Jn 14:16). The word "pope" comes from the Greek pappas, which means "father". This is the spiritual fatherhood referred to multiple times in Scripture (Acts 7:2, Acts 21:40, 22:1,, 1 Cor 14:14-15, 1 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, Heb 12:7-9, Lk 14:26, 1 Thess 2:11, Philem 10, 1 Jn 2:13-14).
[Nate] The Popes mostly have been Italians.
[Clay] The American Presidents have all been white males, so what?
[Nate] The Papacy's methods. It brought itself to Power through the Prestige of Rome, and the Name of Christ, and by shrewd Political Alliances, and by Deception, and by Armed Force and Bloodshed has maintained itself in power.
[Clay] Allow me to interject some actual facts - the papacy arose as the new Christianity movement was growing under pagan Roman persecution; in fact, 33 of the first 34 popes were martyred!.

[Nate] Papal revenues: Through a large part of its history the Papacy, by the sale of ecclesiastical office, and its shameless traffic in Indulgences, has received vast revenues that enable it to maintain, for much of the time the most Luxurious Court in Europe.
[Clay] Wrong - "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven" (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1). Almsgiving is a biblical practice, and although there were abuses of this practice, the Catholic Encyclopedia notes that "mong the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."
[Nate] Personal character of the Popes: some of the Popes have been good men; some of them unspeakably vile, the most of them have been absorbed in the Pursuit of Secular Power.
[Clay] Actually, very few popes were "unspeakably vile"; however, to say that "most of them" have been absorbed in the pursuit of secular power is an unsubstantiated falsehood. The vast majority of popes have been heroically good men, but Nate continues to confuse infallibility with impeccability. The pope is not a perfect human - the pope is simply protected from error (Jn 14:16, Mt 28:20, Jn 16:13) when teaching on faith and morals. It has nothing to do with his personal behavior, since we are all sinners. God has used sinners for His divine purpose all the time - Paul had been a murderer, David was an adulterer and a murderer, Peter was outspoken and violent (he cut off the ear of the high priest's servant). The Apostles were at times vain (bickering over who would be the highest in heaven), lazy ("Can you not stay awake with me one hour?"), and cowardly (running away from Christ when He was taken into custody). God even used the wicked Caiaphas to utter divine prophecy (Jn 11:49-55). Jesus identified the sinfulness of the Pharisees, but still acknowledged their authority, saying "Therefore do and observe all the things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example" (Mt 23:1-3).
[Nate] The Roman Catholic Church and the last days by Dave Hunt Chapter 6. (Revelation 17:18,9) John the Apostle wrote, "The Woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the Kings of the earth...Here is the mind which hath Wisdom: The seven (7) Heads are seven (7) Mountains on which the Woman sitteth."
[Clay] Dave Hunt is a pathetic excuse for a biblical scholar. Even the most faithful Protestants are will have nothing to do with him. Hunt, and therefore Nate, selectively interpret Revelation in a literal way whenever it suits his purpose - see below.
[Nate] The woman rides the Beast, and that Woman is a city built on seven (7) Hills that reigns over the kings of the earth! The Woman is a City! Furthermore, She is a city built on seven (7) Hills. That city is Rome. Only One City has, for more than 2000 years, been known as the City on Seven Hills. That City is Rome. The Catholic Encyclopedia states "It is within the City of Rome, Called the City of Seven Hills, that the Entire area of Vatican State proper is now confined ."
[Clay] The Book of Revelation is an exquisite example of Jewish apocalyptic literature. Most people would agree that the meanings are symbolic, yet, Nate chooses to believe literally that the city is located on "7 hills". First of all, the Catholic Encyclopedia states that "The territory on the right bank of the Tiber between Monte Mario and Gianicolo (Janiculum) was known to antiquity as the Ager Vaticanus, and, owing to its marshy character, the low-lying portion of this district enjoyed an ill repute. The origin of the name Vaticanus is uncertain; some claim that the name comes from a vanished Etruscan town called Vaticum. This district did NOT belong to ancient Rome, nor was it included within the city walls built by Emperor Aurelian." Second, the Greek word horos is almost always translated as "mountain", not "hill", and "mountain" are often symbols of kingdoms (Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Obad. 8-21; Amos 4:1, 6:1). This could explain why there are 7 heads, as heads of the kingdoms. Third, the Vatican is located on one hill (called Vatican Hill) on the opposite side (west) of the Tiber River from ancient Rome (east). Therefore, if Nate would bother to remain consistent in his literal interpretation, the "7 hills" refers to pagan Rome, not the Vatican!
[Nate] Even Catholic apologist Karl Keating admits that Rome has long been known as Babylon. Keating claims that Peter's statement "The church here in Babylon... sends you her greeting" (I Peter 5:13) proves that Peter was writing from Rome. Babylon is a Code Word for Rome.
[Clay] Again, this is pagan Rome, not the Christian Vatican - these are two very separate entities.
[Nate] Who is the Whore? The first thing we are told about the woman is that she is a "Whore" (Rev. 17:1), that earthly kings "have committed fornication" with her (Verse 2), and that "All the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication" (Verse 3). Fornication and adultery are used in the Bible in both physical and the spiritual sense.
[Clay] Although Nate either doesn't know, or deliberately omits it, even Dave Hunt admits that this could be referring to Jerusalem as well - here is why:

7 times Babylon is referred to as "the great city" (16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21). In verse 11:8, we glean more information about this city, which states that the bodies of the two witnesses "will lie in the street of the great city, which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified." Was our Lord crucified in Rome? Of course not, the crucifixion took place in Jerusalem. Also, Jerusalem was symbolically called "Sodom" in the Old Testament (Is. 1:10; Ezek. 16:1-3, 46-56). Therefore, the "great city" could be apostate Jerusalem, an interpretation accepted by many scholars. And again, any reference to "Rome" is pagan Rome, not the Christian Rome.
[Nate] The Number of the Beast "666". (Rev.13: 10-18)... The beast (World Government) causes ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive the Mark in their hand (Worship), or in their foreheads (Minds) that no man might buy or sell, except he had the mark of the, or the name of the Beast, or the Number of his name... For it is a number of a Man; and his number is "666". This number represents the name of a Man, or possibly a Group of men, or an Institution headed by a man or group of men. It seems to mean a Name, the letters of which, when regarded as numerals, total "666".
[Clay] Here is one of the most damning mistruths that exposes the depths to which Nate will lower himself in his anti-Catholic bigotry. Some ridiculous Protestant claims include the fantasy that the pope, if he is given the title, Vicarius Filii Dei, the numbers add up to 666. Unfortunately for them, the pope's title is not and never has been Vicarius Filli Dei. His official title is Vicarious Christi (Vicar of Christ), which adds up to a paltry 214.
[Nate] Irenaeus, a pupil of Polycarp, who was a pupil of John the Apostles, who saw the vision, understood the "666" to be the Greek word "Latenios": L, 30: A, 1: T, 300: E, 5: I, 10: N, 50: S, 200. These total "666" "Latenios" means "Latin Kingdom." Papal Rome made Latin its official language. And it still is, Rome Cannon, Missals, prayers, decrees, bulls, blessings, cursings, are in LATIN.
[Clay] For one thing, 30 + 1 + 300 + 5 + 10 + 50 + 200 = 596, not 666. It appears that Nate's historical scholarship is exceeded only by his mathematical ability. He has misrepresented what Irenaeus actually said, which was this: "It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfilment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. For if there are many names found possessing this number, it will be asked which among them shall the coming man bear. It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas (Euanqas) contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it. Then also Lateinos (Lateinos) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: I will not, however, make any boast over this [coincidence]. Teitan too, (Teitan, the first syllable being written with the two Greek vowels e and i), among all the names which are found among us, is rather worthy of credit. For it has in itself the predicted number, and is composed of six letters, each syllable containing three letters; and [the word itself] is ancient, and removed from ordinary use; for among our kings we find none bearing this name Titan, nor have any of the idols which are worshipped in public among the Greeks and barbarians this appellation. Among many persons, too, this name is accounted divine, so that even the sun is termed "Titan" by those who do now possess [the rule]. This word, too, contains a certain outward appearance of vengeance, and of one inflicting merited punishment because he (Antichrist) pretends that he vindicates the oppressed. And besides this, it is an ancient name, one worthy of credit, of royal dignity, and still further, a name belonging to a tyrant. Inasmuch, then, as this name "Titan" has so much to recommend it, there is a strong degree of probability, that from among the many [names suggested], we infer, that perchance he who is to come shall be called "Titan." We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign." (Against Heresies, Book 5, xxx, 3)

Note that NOWHERE in the quote does Irenaeus say that the "Latins" are the anti-Christ - he only mentioned them as a possibility, along with other possible anti-Christs. Furthermore, it should be noted that "the Latins" being referred to are the pagan Romans, NOT the Catholic Church, because Irenaeus WAS Catholic!

This is why Iraenaeus makes a point of saying warning against those who "received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number" and asserts that Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets." (AH, xxx, 1-2).

Let's play Nate's little game anyway and think of another person whose numbers add up to 666. Ellen Gould White (L + L + V + L + D + V + V + I), founder of the Seventh Day Adventist Church has her numbers add up to 666, too! This was the point Irenaeus was making - it is pointless to speculate, because you can come up with all sorts of people who might have 666 names (for example, I've seen some people suggest Bill Clinton was a 666 although I've not actually added it up). How ironic that the very quote Nate abuses actually ends up calling him "simple and irresponsible" - someday Nate will have to be held accountable for being a false prophet, as Irenaeus wrote.
[Nate] The significance, then, is that the beast, powerful as he is, and no matter how powerful, he may become is still NOT powerful as God.
[Clay] Of course! Neither the pope, nor the Catholic Church in general, claim to be "as powerful as God".
[Nate] Wealth from ill-gotten gain! (Rev. 17:4) The incredible wealth of this Prostitute caught John's attention next. She was dressed "In Purple and Scarlet color, and Decked with gold and precious Stones and Pearls, having golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornications." The colors of Purple and Scarlet once again identify the Prostitute Woman with Both Pagan and Christian Rome. The Woman's colors are literally still the colors of the Catholic clergy! Catholic Encyclopedia quoted above states: Cappa Magna: "A cloak with a long train and a hooted shoulder cape it was Purple wool for Bishops; for Cardinals, it was Scarlet water silk (for Advent, Lent, Good Friday, and the conclave, purple wool); and for the Pope, it was Red velvet for Christmas martins [sic], Red serge at other times."
[Clay] Wrong. First, note that Nate admits that the harlot represents PAGAN Rome. The classic symbolic meaning behind purple is "royalty" and red is "the blood of the martyrs"; furthermore, red and purple are not the dominant colors of the Catholic clergy - white is. Contrast the color of the whore's clothing with the clothing of the Bride of Christ (Rev 19:8). The Bride's clothing is WHITE!!!!! and is symbolically described as "the righteous acts of the saints". Since the Bride's clothing is symbolic, the whore's clothing is symbolic also. Furthermore, God commanded that scarlet yarn and wool be used in liturgical ceremonies (Lev. 14:4, 6, 49-52; Num. 19:6), and that God commanded that the priests’ vestments be made with purple and scarlet yarn (Ex. 28:4-8, 15, 33, 39:1-8, 24, 29), so Nate is positioning himself against God's own words. Finally, the identification of the Bride as New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12, 21:2, 10) indicates that the whore is Old (apostate) Jerusalem (Gal 4:25-26).
[Nate] Rome has practiced Evil to gather her Wealth, for the "Golden cup" is filled with "abominations and filthiness." Much of the wealth of Roman Catholic Church was acquired through the confiscation of the Property of the pitiful Victims of the Inquisitions. Even the dead were exhumed to face trial and the Church took property from their heirs. One historian writes: "The punishment of the Inquisition did not cease when the Victim was burned to ashes, or immured for life in the Inquisition dungeons. His relatives were reduced to beggary by the law that all his possessions were forfeited. The System offered unlimited opportunities for loot..." (William S.Kerr, A handbook of the Papacy)
[Clay] Wrong - the Church has run a budget deficit for the past few years, and the annual budget of the Vatican is about the same as the archdiocese of Chicago. Since there are one billion Catholics in the world (compared to maybe 200,000 Friends and Workers), one can imagine that there might be some costs involved in bringing the gospel to them.
[Nate] Untold billions of dollars have been paid to her by those who thought they were purchasing heaven on the installations [sic] plan for themselves or loved ones.
[Clay] Never has the Catholic Church ever taught that a person "purchases heaven" for themselves or their loved ones. This is a blatant lie, and I tremble for Nate's soul.
[Nate] The practice continues to this day---blatantly where Catholicism is in control, less obviously here in the United States.
[Clay] Where exactly is "Catholicism in control"?
[Nate] There are further abominations of Corrupt banking practices, laundering of drugs [sic] money, trading in counterfeit securities, and dealings with the Mafia (fully documents [sic] in police and court records), which the Vatican and her representatives around the world have long employed. Nino Lo Bello, former business Week correspondent in Rome and Rome bureau chief for New York Journal of Commerce, writes that the Vatican is so Closely allied with the Mafia in Italy "many people believe that Sicily is nothing more than a Vatican building." (Nino Lo Bello, the Vatican Empire, Trident press, 1968; David A. Yallop, in God's name, Bantam Books, 1984; Richard Hammers, the Vatican Connection, Penguin books, 1983).
[Clay] "Many people" believed that the earth was flat for a long time - that doesn't make it right. This statement is as stupid as saying Jeffery Dahmer was a mass murderer because he was a Methodist. Collective gullibility can be contagious.....
[Nate] The Roman Catholic Church is by far the Wealthiest Institution on earth. Yes, one hears from Rome periodic Pleas for money---persuasive appeals, claiming that the Vatican cannot maintance itself on its limited budget and needs monetary assistance. Such pleas are unconscionable ploys. The value of innumerable sculptures by such masters as Michelangelo, paintings by the world's greatest artists, and countless other art Treasures and Ancient documents which Rome possesses (not only at the Vatican but in Cathedrals around the world) is Beyond Calculation. At the World Synod of Bishops in Rome, England's Cardinal Heenan proposed that the Church sell some of these Superfluous Treasures and give the proceeds to the Poor. His suggestion was not Well-received.
[Clay] Most Catholics would not be opposed to selling some of the artwork in the Vatican to raise money, but the only unconscionable thing here is Nate's continual slander.
[Nate] Christ told His disciples to live in Poverty. He told His disciples not to lay up treasures on this earth but in Heaven. The Roman Catholic's have disobeyed that command and have accumulated a Plethora of riches. There is no Church, no City, which is a spiritual entity, no Religious institution past, or present, which comes close to possessing the Wealth of the Roman Catholic Church.
[Clay] I challenge Nate to provide proof of the Church's financial statements.
[Nate] Drunk with the Martyr's blood. (Rev. 17:6). John the Apostles (95 A.D.) notices that the Prostitute Woman is drunk---and not with Alcoholic beverages. She is drunk with "The blood of the Saints, and with blood of Martyrs of Jesus." The picture is a horrible one. It is not merely her hands that are Red with this blood, but she is drunk with it! One thinks immediately of the Inquisition, which for Centuries held Europe in their terrible grip. In his History of the Inquisition, Canon Llorentte [sic], who was a secretary to the Inquisition in Madrid from 1790-1792 and his access to the archives of all the tribunals, estimated that in Spain alone the number of condemned exceed [sic] 3 millions, with about 300,000 burned at the stake. (R.W. Thompson, the Papacy and the Civil Power, New York, 1876). A Catholic historian comments upon events leading up to the suppression of the Spanish Inquisition in 1809..
[Clay] Here we go again with the body counts. Most respectable scholars believe that the number of people killed was only between 3,000 - 8,000. While no amount of deaths are condoned, remember that Communist Russia and China are responsible for the deaths of 30 Million Catholics.

This does, however, give me an opportunity to expose Nate's (and Dave Hunt's) scholarship for what it actually is - lazy and irresponsible. Hunt, when challenged on the number 300,000, admitted that he never bothered to research it himself, saying in his June 1998 newsletter Berean Call ""I relied upon a secondary source that said Llorente cited 300,000 deaths in the Spanish Inquisition. Other sources say 30,000". Indeed, these "other sources" had this to say about Hunt's numbers:

"Llorente, the ex-Secretary of the Holy Office who wrote a bitterly antagonistic account of it at the beginning of the 19th century, based on manuscript material which is no longer extant, states that all told, from its foundation down to 1808, the total number of heretics burned in person in Spain alone totalled 31,912... These figures are so enormous as to seem highly suspicious." (Cecil Roth The Spanish Inquisitionpage 123)

"[Llorente] came up with the incredible figures of 31,912 relaxations in person, 17,659 relaxations in effigy, and 291,450 penitents, a grand total of 341,021 victims. All the historical evidence has shown this greatly exaggerated figure to be without any foundation." (Henry Kamen The Spanish Inquisition page 280-1)

"Llorente put the total at nearly 32,000 [burned in person], but his method of calculation is fantastic and ridiculous." (A.S. Turberville The Spanish Inquisition page 112)

"There can be little doubt, however, that in light of subsequent research, even by those more or less sharing Llorente's animus towards the Holy Office, he can no longer be considered reliable...Clearly, Llorente also contributed substantially to the growing anti-clerical tradition in Spain in the 19th century." (Paul J. Hauben [1969], page 31, from chapter "Juan Antonio Llorente: A Spanish Anti-Clerical View")

"There is no question that the number of these has been greatly exaggerated in popular belief, an exaggeration to which Llorente has largely contributed by his absurd method of computation...." (Lea,A History of the Inquisition of Spain volume 4, page 517)

But anyway, the Catholic Church did not "invent" the Inquisition - God did. He told Moses to find and punish those Israelites who had defiled themselves by worshipping the false gods of the pagans (Numbers 25), and God also instituted an "inquisition" on an ongoing basis to "purge the evil from your midst":

"If there is found among you in any one of the communities which the Lord, you God, gives you, a man or a woman who does evil in the sight of the Lord, your God, and trangresses his covenant by serving other gods, or by worshipping the sun or the moon or any of the host of the sky against my command; and if, on being informed of it, you find by careful investigation that it is true and an established fact that this abomination has been committed in Israel, you shall bring the man or woman who has done the evil deed out to your city gates and stone him to death" (Deut 17:2-7).

In this case, Muslems and Jews were pretending to worship God for financial and political gain. Spain had been under attack for centuries; in fact, in 1480, the Turks attacked and captured the Italian city of Otranto, and they executed half its population - 12,000 Catholics were killed. The Archbishop of Otranto was held down and sawed in half! It must be remembered that heresy, in those days, was considered a crime worse than murder, so it was punished accordingly. Protestant Schaff points out that this was NOT exclusively a Catholic entity:

"To the great humiliation of the Protestant Churches, religious intolerance and even persecution unto death were continued long after the Reformation. In Geneva the pernicious theory was put into practice by state and church, even to the use of torture and the admission of the testimony of children against their parents, and with the sanction of Calvin. Bullinger, in the second Helvetic Confession, announced the principle that heresy could be punished like murder or treason (History of the Christian Church, vol V, New York, 1907, p. 524).

Whether you agree with the methods, an "inquisition" was biblically mandated and unfortunately was subject to the culture of the day.
[Nate] "When Napoleon conquered Spain in 1808, a Polish officer in his army, Colonel Lemanouski, reported that the Dominicans (in charge of the Inquisition) blockaded themselves in their monastery in Marid [sic]. When Lemanouski's troops forced an entry, the Inquisitions denied the existence of any torture chambers. The soldiers searched the monastery and discovered them under the floors. The chambers were full of prisoners, all naked, many insane. The French troops, use to cruelty and blood, could not stomach the sight. They emptied the torture-chambers, laid the gunpowder to the monastery and blew up the place. "The most ghastly abomination of all was the system of torture. The accounts of it cold-blood operations make one shudder at the capacity of human beings for cruelty. And it was decreed and regulated by the Popes who claim to represent Christ on the earth." "Careful notes, were taken not only of all that was confessed by the victim, but of his shrieks, cries, lamentations, broken interjections and Appeals for mercy. The most moving things in the literature of the Inquisition are not the accounts of their sufferings left by the victims but the sober memoranda kept by the officers of the tribunals. We were distressed and horrified just because there is no intentions to shock us." The remnants of some of the Chambers of horror remain in Europe and may visit today.
[Clay] It is common knowledge that the atrocities committed were by the secular Spanish courts, not by Church officials. I challenge Nate to provide evidence that any pope "decreed and regulated" this torture. For a reasoned discussion on the Inquisition, CLICK HERE.
[Nate] As for the claims of the Roman Catholic Church that its history can be traced back to Jesus Christ. The true Church of Jesus Christ was not founded upon Peter, but upon Peter's confession of Christ [sic] deity as recorded in (Matthew 16:16 "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God."
[Clay] Wrong again. You cannot divorce Peter's confession from Peter the person. Jesus did not say, "on Peter's confession I will build my church". He blessed him, changed his name from Simon to Peter (which in Greek petros MEANS "rock"), and then said "on THIS rock I will build my church". Then He gave Peter (and no one else) the Keys of the Kingdom as well as the authority to bind and loose sins. In Scripture, when God changes someone's name, it is a significant event, and the new name indicates something about the role that particular person is going to play in God's plan. For example, Abram (Hebrew for "father") had his name changed to Abraham (Hebrew for "father of all nation"), and he went on to become the father of us all (Rom 4:16-17).

Contrast this episode with a similar interaction that Nathanael had with Jesus in John's Gospel (chapter 1). Nathanael also confessed Christ as the Messiah, but Jesus neither blessed him, nor did He change his name, nor did He give him the Keys, nor did he give him the authority to bind and loose.

This is not, by the way, an exclusively Catholic interpretation. There are many, many Protestants who acknowledge that Peter was the rock upon whom Jesus built his church. Here is what Oscar Cullmann, the preeminent Protestant New Testament scholar of his day wrote: "The Gospel tradition has simply preserved the fact that Jesus marked off Simon among the Twelve by giving him the name "rock". According to Old Testament models, (Gen 17:5, 15; 32:29, Isaiah 62:2, 65:15) and Rabbinic usage nicknames either refer to a particular situation as a promise or else they lay upon those who bear them a specific task...This name cannot be explained exclusively in terms of Peter's character. To be sure, Jesus knows his zeal, exuberance and energy as well as his lack of courage. When he gives Simon the name Peter, He knows the many sided strength of his temperament. on the other hand, these qualities unfold only in the discharge of the task laid upon him." (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1968, vol. 6, p. 103)
[Nate] Peter was not the first Pope, nor is there any scriptural justification whatever for such an office.
[Clay] Wrong again. The Scriptural support for Peter's primacy is overwhelming. Peter alone was blessed, had his name changed to mean "rock", was given the Keys, and was given the authority to bind and loose. He was the one who rallied the Apostles after the Crucifixion by having them choose a successor for Judas (Acts 1). He was the first to preach the sermon at Pentecost, in which 3,000 people converted (Acts 2). He was the one who received the vision from God to extend the Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10), and he was the one who made the ruling over the Judaizer heresay at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15).

Peter is mentioned 195 times in the NT - the next closest is John (only 29 times). Peter is invariably mentioned FIRST among the apostles (Mt 10:2-5, Mk 3:16, Lk 6:14, Acts 1:13), and notice that Judas is mentioned LAST. Peter alone was supernaturally enabled to walk on water and prevented from falling (Mt 14:25-33), the risen Christ appeared to Peter first (Lk 24:34), Christ preached the gospel from Peter's boat (Lk 5:3). Peter alone was prayed for specifically that his faith would not fail so that he would "strengthen your brethren" (Lk 22:31-32). Most significantly, Jesus entrusted Peter with the special role of shepherd of his flock (Jn 21:15-17). These are just some of the examples of the primacy of Peter, the first pope.
[Nate] Peter's own inspired testimony, as to his position and ministry, is given (I Peter 5:1-4). He then identifies himself in (II Peter 1:1) as "a Servant and an Apostle of Jesus Christ..."
[Clay] I would encourage Nate to read just one verse later - "Clothe yourselves in humility in your dealings with one another" he writes, "for God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble. So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time". The New Testament evidence for Peter's primacy is overwhelming (see above), but Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, maintained the humility of Christ by taking his own advice, choosing to follow the words of Jesus, "Whoever wishes to be great among you shall be your servant, whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave" (Mt 20:26-17).

Similarly, Paul who was the most prominent and prolific writer in the New Testamnt also maintains this humility, saying "I am the least of the apostles..." (1 Cor 15:10), even though he had the authority to ordain presbyters and bishops (1 Tim 1:6). Even though Paul was humble, he also maintained his authority, saying "Although I have the FULL RIGHT to ORDER you to do what is proper, I rather urge you out of love" (Philemon 8-9, cf. 1 Thess 2:7).

So, to be logically consistent, the person who denies Peter's authority simply because he referred to himself as a "fellow presbyter" must also admit that Paul had even less authority because Paul said he was the "least of the apostles". As Patrick Madrid writes, "Peter's calling himself a 'fellow presbyter' doesn't disprove his primacy any more than Paul's habit of calling himself a 'deacon' proves that he had no authority greater than that of a deacon's. The practice of self-effacement among the Apostles was a testament to their humility, not some sort of evidence that they saw themselves as having no authority." (Pope Fiction, p. 35)
[Nate] History confirms the fact that there were no Popes in the early churches during the first centuries.
[Clay] Simply wrong! The pope is the bishop of Rome, and there is plenty of evidence documenting the jurisdictional primacy of this office. Clement, writing in the 1st Century says ""The church of God which sojourns at Rome to the church of God which sojourns at Corinth ... But if any disobey the words spoken by him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger." (First Epistle to the Corinthians, 1, 59:1)

Since Nate appears to be fond of quoting Irenaeus, read what Irenaeus wrote about the Church at Rome in the 2nd Century: "For with this Church [Rome], because of its superior origin, ALL churches MUST AGREE; that is, all of the faithful in the whole world, for in her apostolic tradition has always been preserved for the benefit of the faithful everywhere" (Against Heresies 3:3)

Ignatius, writing in the early 2nd Century says: "...the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who farmed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love..." (Epistle to the Romans, Prologue)



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© Copyright Clay Randall, 2001