Catholics & Protestants, Part I
[Nate] By the year [A.D. 300] there were 90 different denominations in the world, calling themselves "Christians" (from "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire"). How did it start? People were complainers, murmurers, fault finders of the SIMPLE way that Jesus gave to the world, and began to start their own Ways....We find that the little groups of Christians CONTINUED to meet together in Homes, each had a part in the meetings, sharing.
[Clay] The early Christians met in synagogues (like Paul) and in their homes, AND, if you would actually read their writings, you would find that they were very catholic in their beliefs. The meeting in homes were a necessity since they were often persecuted for their faith; however, absolutely NOWHERE does Jesus say to meet only in homes. You simply have inserted a nonbiblical belief here. Also, please list all 90 of these "Christian" groups by name, and include their individual theologies, ie., belief in the deity of Christ, acceptance of the Eucharist, etc.
[Nate] But by [A.D. 189-198] Victor declared himself to be Bishop of the church at Rome. He would not allow the apostles to take part anymore
[Clay] What apostles do you mean? The 12 apostles had already died, most of them martyred. Furthermore, Victor did not "declare himself" bishop, he was elected.
[Nate] Some split off from the apostles teachings and started their own little churches in Rome
[Clay] Of course they did - there were many heretical sects that formed. It is a false assumption to to imply that this confers some sort of legitimacy to these groups.
[Nate] Zepharius: called himself Bishop of the Bishops, church meetings in his home.
[Clay] 1) It's spelled Zephyrinus. 2) The early Christians agreed that the Bishop of Rome had supremacy; if you like, I can provide specific citations. 3) As has been pointed out already, early Christians were persecuted by the Romans (in this case Emperor Septimus Severus), so perhaps meeting in the home was necessary at that time. 4) So what?
** [Nate] Calixtus: Came into authority. He brought changes into the churches that was developing. It was NO LONGER founded upon the apostles teachings, Victor changed that! In 217 the man Calixtus took upon himself the name of POPE.
[Clay] First, "pope" is not a term used until much later. Second, it's usually spelled "Callistus". Third, the fact that Christianity "developed" is not itself an inherent falsehood; for example, the very Bible you twist to your own satisfaction was ITSELF A DEVELOPMENT IN THE 4TH CENTURY. Fourth, because of the fact that you've not recognized that the Bible itself was "developed" by the Catholic Church, you simply are not able to say that the Catholic Church was no longer founded upon the apostles' teachings.
[Nate] He felt the church would not be desired by the heathen unless beautified. He brought an old tavern and renovated it, called it a BASILLICA for a meeting place
[Clay] First, you spelled it wrong - it's "basilica". Second, the term was first used by ancient Romans to describe any sort of building used for public administration. Third, please provide appropriate citations (and Time magazine or the Oregonian newpaper don't count). Fourth, are you aware that wedding rings, birthday cakes, and even circumcisions are of pagan origin? As long as the practice is no longer being used to honor pagan gods, then what difference does it make to you? Even Paul wrote that Christians could eat meat that had been offered to pagan gods (1 Cor 8).
[Nate] He added mass, a ceremony to make it attractive to the heathen
[Clay] Wrong. The mass is held at the command of Jesus to "do this in memory of me" (Lk 22), reinforced by Paul (1 Cor 11 ) and this practice was continued by the early Christians (Acts 2:42). If Bible support isn't enough, here is something written in A.D. 70:"Assemble on the Lord's day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until they have been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23-24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, 'Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations' [Mal. 1:11, 14]" Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
[Nate] Calixtus brought property on Apien Way, in Rome and put his name over the gate, made it the first Catholic cemetery. He beautified the ceremonies and added long robes to make it more attractive to the heathen.
Calixtus died in 222.
[Clay] First, You spelled his name incorrectly, and you didn't specify which - it's actually "Callistus I" Second, not only did he die in 222 A.D., he was martyred by the Romans - so much for your persecution infatuation, right? Third, he was put in charge over the cemetary by his predecessor, Pope Zephyrinus. I don't mean to overemphasis your misspelling; however, the frequency with which you do it reflects a certain carelessness that I think extends over to your actual scholarship (and I use the term loosely).
[Nate] Urban: Took over when Calixtus died. Now they had the Church property and had to Register with the government so it would NOT be taxed. So, they formed an ORGANIZATION, took the name of Holy Catholic Church (means "Universal"). This was so they could hold no property without taxation. Started in the same city as the seat of government. So, all the denominations that existed then, had to come under the Catholic Church and under Rome.
[Clay] First, the Catholic Church had no real power, it still was under the rule of Rome. Second, Roman emperor Alexander Serevus at that time tolerated the Catholic Church. He even ruled in favor of the Church in the imperial court against tavern owners in a land dispute (Lampridius, Alex. Sever., c. xlix). Third, the term "catholic" was first used by Ignatius in 110 A.D. Fourth, again, what are those 90 denominations? You have yet to identify them....
[Nate] But now the Military Spirit of Rome had entered the Catholic Church. The Church had changed it nature, had entered its Great Apostasy, had become a Political Organization in the spirit and pattern of Imperial Rome, and took its Nose-Dive into the Millennium of Papal Abominations.
[Clay] The idea of total apostasy is frankly unbiblical. In Matthew 16:16-19 Jesus promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against His church, so total apostasy is absolutely impossible; therefore, I challenge you to prove a total apostasy occurred.
[Nate] Constantine made the Christians' day of Assembly, Sunday, a Rest Day.
[Clay] Wrong again. The practice of meeting together on the first day of the week for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is indicated in Acts 20:7; 1 Cor 16:2, Rev 1:10, it is called the Lord's day. In the Didache (xiv) the injunction is given: "On the Lord's Day come together and break bread. And give thanks (offer the Eucharist), after confessing your sins that your sacrifice may be pure". St. Ignatius (Ep. ad Magnes. ix) speaks of Christians as "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also Our Life rose again". In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i. e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead".
St. Justin is the first Christian writer to call the day Sunday (I Apol., lxvii) The day of rest seems a logical extension of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Lord's day. All of these writings come before Constantine.
[Nate] The First Church Building was ERECTED in the reign of Alexander Serverus A.D. 222- 225. After the Edict of Constantine they began to be built EVERYWHERE
[Clay] I would remind you that nowhere does the bible forbid building churches. This objection is irrelevant and meaningless.
[Nate] Constantine added Prayers for the dead and the sign of the CROSS. He died in A.D 337.
[Clay] Wrong. First, prayers for the dead were offered as far back in early Judaism (12 Macc). Second, Tertullian was making the sign of the cross as early as the 3rd Century. Third, the sign of the cross is suggested from Scripture, even in the Old Testament:
"… they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads" (Rev 9:4 RSV, cf. Rev 7:3, Rev 14:1)
"Then he called to the man dressed in linen … saying to him: Pass through the city (through Jerusalem) and mark an X on the foreheads of those who moan and groan over all the abominations that are practiced within it." (Ez 9:3-4NAB, cf Ex 17:9-14)
Here's what Tertullian (160-225 A.D.) wrote in De cor. Mil., iii:
"in all our coming in and going out, in putting of our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupieth us, we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross".
[Nate] Theodosius A.D. 378-395 Made Christianity the State Religion.
[Clay] In an effort to combat the Arian heresy, he issued the edict that his subjects should profess the faith of the Bishop of Rome - so what?
[Nate] And the Breach grew wider with the centuries. The creation of the dogma of Papal Infallibility in 1870 further deepens the chasm.
[Clay] Wrong. Papal infallibility was not "created" in 1870 - it was formally defined in 1870. This fact notwithstanding, the belief that the Bishop of Rome was infallibly protected from teaching error is present even from the early Christian writings (which I'll be happy to provide). This is what infallibility means - it does NOT mean that the pope is "perfect". This office was created by Jesus for Peter (Mt 16:16-18) and his sucessors, and they were promised divine guidance (Mt 28:20) for confirming his brethren in faith (Lk 22:32).
[Nate] Ministers became Priests. The term "Priest" was not applied to Christian ministers before A.D. 200. It was borrowed from "The Old Jewish System" and from the example of the Heathen Priesthood.
[Clay] Wrong. The term "priest" is an adaptation from the greek presbyteros which is seen throughout the New Testament (1 Tim. 5:17, Jas. 5:14-15). Furthermore, the "old Jewish System" was not meant to be discarded, only improved upon, but nowhere in Scripture is a priesthood abolished.
[Nate] Leo I. Prohibited priests from marrying, and Celibacy of priests became a law of the Roman church.
[Clay] In your feeble haste to refute Catholicism, you seem to have forgotten that WORKERS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE CELIBATE, TOO!. Celibacy is not a "law", it is a discipline that all priests voluntarily agree to, AND, it is quite biblical (Mt 19:12, 1 Cor 7).
[Nate] Conversion of the Barbarians. The Goths, Vandals, and Huns who overthrew Roman Empire accepted Christianity; but to a large extent their conversion was nominal and this further filled the Church with Pagan practices.
[Clay] As I've said before, and Paul agrees (1 Cor 8), the adaptation of "pagan" practices which are improved and perfected into Christian beliefs is not something that should be denigrated.
[Nate] Personal Character of the Popes, Some of the Popes have been good men; some of them unspeakably vile; the most of them have absorbed in the pursuit of Secular Power.
[Clay] You've made the usual mistake of confusing infallibility with impeccability. Popes are infallible only when making statements on faith and morals - they are not perfect human beings, as history has shown. And, I might add, neither are workers perfect, so your point is irrelevant.
[Nate] Hilderbrand Ordered Bohemians NOT to read the Bible.......
[Clay] First, it should be acknowledged that it was the Catholic Church that provided Bibles in the first place. Catholic monks were the ones who transcribed them by hand, on parchment paper, and it was the Church that protected them from the barbarians, et. al. It must then also be remembered that the vast majority of the public was illiterate in the first place, so having a bible in every home would have been pointless anyway. For example, one of the reasons the bible was translated into Latin in the first place was because that was the common language of the time. Finally, any time bible reading was prohibited was because the translations themselves were corrupt. On the contrary, reading scripture was encouraged, as Pope Gregory I (died 604 A.D.) wrote in his Letters, 5, 46
"The Emperor of heaven, the Lord of men and of angels, has sent you His epistles for your life’s advantage-and yet you neglect to read them eagerly. Study them, I beg you, and meditate daily on the words of your Creator. Learn the heart of God in the words of God, that you may sigh more eagerly for things eternal, that your soul may be kindled with greater longings for heavenly joys."
[Nate] A new addition was added. Bishop Liberious of Rome decided to Set a Date for the Birth of Jesus
[Clay] Ambrose preserves the sermon preached by Liberius (which you spelled incorrectly) which refers to the Epiphany; however, Clement of Alexandria notes references to a celebration of Christ's birth in 200 A.D. When one considers the fact that the calender itself changed, and that the very canon of the New Testament wasn't determined until the 4th Century, this objection become irrelevant.
[Nate] Prayers for the Dead & Making the sign of the Cross
[Clay] They're not dead (Rom 12:5, Mk 12:26-27, Eph 4:4), and 12 Maccabees makes it clear that prayers for the dead were a practice long before 300 A.D. It doesn't matter if you don't accept the canonicity of 12 Macc in your Old Testament - the fact remains that this was part of Jewish custom.
[Nate] Veneration of angels & dead saints & Use of images in worship.
[Clay] 1) Saints are not "dead" - see above. 2) Saints are venerated because Paul instructed us to "Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due" (Rom. 13:7). 3) If pictures or statues help focus one's attention on God, what difference does it make, just so long as the image itself is not worshipped?
[Nate] The Mass as a daily celebration.
[Clay] I'm curious, where does the Bible command Wednesday night meetings? What about conventions, or Union meetings? These objections are meaningless.
[Nate] Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term
"Mother of God " applied at Council of Ephesus.
[Clay] No, it began when the angel exalted Mary in Lk 1:28, FULL of grace. This is supported by extracanonical writings like the following:
"The report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, 'The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.' And many said, 'She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain.'" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70])
"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80])
"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied `Be it done unto me according to your word' [Luke 1:38]" (Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155])
In closing, Nate, it doesn't bother me so much that your understanding of Christian history and Catholic theology borders upon total ignorance; instead, it disturbs me more that you have presented your feckless, unsubstantiated, and incorrect polemic as fact, which can mislead people visiting your website.
I sincerely, strongly desire to enter into a dialogue with you regarding ANY Catholic teaching, and/or historical event. If you refuse to do this, I can only assume that you either are not capable of replying or that you realize that what you have put forth on your website is patently false.