Catholics & Protestant, Part II
[Nate] The Crusades were of influence in saving Europe from the Turks.
Fall of Constantinople [1453], to the Turks, brought an end to the Eastern Roman Empire, and jarred Europe with a second threat of Mohammedan control, which later stopped by John Sobieski in the battle of Vienna [1683]
[Clay] See Lockwood’s article on the Crusades here.
[Nate] In [526] Extreme Unctioned [sic] (Last Rites).
[Clay] Wrong. Extreme Unction (Last Rites) were already well-known by Origen (d. 254 A.D.) who wrote about it the “the hard and laborious" way of penance, which involves the confession of one's sins to the priest and the acceptance at his hands of "the salutary medicine”, adding, “And in this is fulfilled also what St. James the Apostle says: if any one is sick, let him call in the priests of the Church, and let them lay hands on him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith shall save the sick man, and if he be in sins they shall be remitted to him" (Hom. ii, in Levit). This is in reference to James 5:14-15: “Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.”
Other proof that this occurred in the New Testament is seen in Mark 6:13, so the facts that Origen’s writings precede Nate’s claim by 200 years, as well as the fact that there is scriptural evidence for it, proves that Last Rites were not a “new development”. Even if it was a “new development”, so were the canon of the New and Old Testament, the doctrine of the Trinity, and various other Christian beliefs, so the objection that something developed “later” renders it invalid is simply irrelevant.
[Nate] In [600] more additions were made. A law was passed that all masses must be said in Latin; wherever in the World it was held. They felt the Latin language was the most beautiful and was the language of angels.
[Clay] Wrong. The Latin language had become the common language of the people. This is why the Bible was translated into the Latin Vulgate (vulgar = common) - to make it more accessible to the public.
[Nate] In [766&786] Worship of Cross, images, pictures, Idols that were made earlier.
[Clay] Wrong. Catholics do not worship crosses, pictures, stained glass windows, potato chips that look like Jesus, or any other object. This is idolatry, which has been always condemned by the Church.
[Nate] In [800] A new law passed that they had to eat Fish on Fridays. This was to save the livelihood of the fisherman, as the people were turning to eat more meat.
[Clay] Wrong. Because beef, etc., was a luxury, eating fish was a sign of penance. Friday was chosen in order to honor the memory of our Lord Jesus suffering and dying on that day of the week. As early as the 2nd-3rd Century, writings indicate that this was a common practice (Didache viii, Clement of Alexandria’s Strom. vi 75, and Tertullian’s De jejun. xiv.. The interior penance of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving, which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: efforts at reconciliation with one’s neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one’s neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity which covers a multitude of sins. Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right, by the admission of faults to one’s brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one’s cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance…every sincere act of worship or devotion revives the spirit of conversion and repentance within us and contributes to the forgiveness of our sins. (CCC 1434-1435, 1437).
[Nate] The Darkest period of the Papacy.
Adrian II, John VIII, Marinus, with these Popes began the Darkest Period of Papacy. Bribery, Corruption, Immorality and Bloodshed.
[Clay] Papal infallibility is defined as follows: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable." (Const de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv)
Nate makes the tired mistake of confusing infallibility with impeccability. Popes are not perfect; in fact, papal infallibility is in effect ONLY when the pope is teaching on matters of faith and morals addressed to the whole church. It has nothing to do with whether certain popes’ behavior was sinful. Peter and the Apostles denied Christ (Mk 14:66-72, Mk 14:50), Thomas refused to believe in Jesus’ resurrection (Jn 20:24-25). Paul was a vicious persecutor of Christians, David was an adulterer and murderer. This is why Jesus taught that there would be both good and bad within His kingdom (Mt 13:24-30, Mt 13:47-48). However, as Paul rightly asks, “What if some were unfaithful – will their infidelity nullify the fidelity of God? Of course not” (Rom 3:3-4). This is why even when we are unfaithful, God remains faithful (2 Tim 2:13) and His church will never fail (Mt 16:18).
[Nate] In [955] Canonization of dead saints. "Rule of the Harlots"
[Clay] Wrong – saints are not “dead” (Rom 8:35-39), and we are told to honor those who have gone before who are united with God in perfection (Mt 18:10, 1 Jn 3:2, 1 Thess 1:5-8, Heb 13:7).
[Nate] Pope Serius [sic] III (904-911). Said to have had a mistress, Marozia; she, her mother Theodora, and her sister, " Filled the Papal chair with bastard sons, and turned the Papal Palace into a den of robbers." Called in history The rule of the Harlots. John XIII (955-963), a grandson of Marozia, was "guilty of almost every crime; violated virgins and widows, high and low, lived with his father's mistress; make the Papal palace a brothel; was killed while in the act of adultery by the woman's enraged husband."
[Clay] First, his name is spelled Sergius III. Second, the slanderous claims against him were made only by bitter or ill-informed adversaries, such that they are rendered “highly doubtful” (CE) Anyway, these things (if they actually did occur), while wrong, have nothing to do with the divine charism of papal infallibility – see above.
[Nate] In [1000] Holy water was added to make the ceremony more attractive.
[Clay] Wrong. Holy water has been in liturgical practice as early as the Old Testament (Numbers 5:17).
[Nate] Boniface VII (984-985) murdered Pope John XIV, and "maintained himself on the blood-stained Papal Throne by a lavish distribution of stolen money."
[Clay] Nate misrepresents Boniface VII as a properly-elected pope, which he was not. He was an anti-pope, who is a false claimant of the papacy in opposition to a pontiff canonically elected. Someday, Nate will have to answer to God alone for his careless words (Mt 12:36).
[Nate] Benedict VIII (1012-1024) bought the Office of Pope with open bribery. This was called SIMONY, that is, the purchase or sale of Church Office with money.
[Clay] Wrong. The claims of corruption against Benedict VIII are made on insufficient grounds (CE, Mann Lives of the Popes in the Early Middle Ages ,London, 1902); in fact, in A.D. 1022 he held an influential synod at Pavia, in order to restrain the clerical problems of incontinence and simony.
[Nate] Bendict [sic] IX (1033-1045) was made Pope as a boy 12 years old, through a money bargain with the powerful families that rule Rome. He committed murders and adulteries in broad daylight; robbed pilgrims on the graves of martyrs; a hideous criminal, the people drove him out of Rome."
[Clay] Even the Catholic Encyclopedia calls him a “disgrace to the Chair of Peter”; however, this has nothing to do with the divine charism of papal infallibility – see above discussion. Incidently, he repented and then resigned from his office of pope (Piacentini, De Sepulcro Benedicti IX 1747).
[Nate] In [1079] Celibacy of priesthood.
[Clay] Nate seems to have forgotten that workers are celibate, too!. In his misguided zeal to present the Catholic Church in a bad light, his self-contradictions are exposed. The idea of celibacy is present as early as in the Old Testament. In fact, the prophet Jeremiah was told to be celibate:
This message came to me from the Lord: Do not marry any woman; you shall not have sons or daughters in this place..." - Jer 16:1-2
So, it appears that there is a biblical precedent for a man not to take a wife. The Old Testament even goes so far as to portray refraining from sex as a sanctifying, consecrated act:
" 'Now what have you on hand? Give me five loaves, or whatever you can find.' But the priest replied to David, 'I have no ordinary bread on hand, only holy bread; if the men have abstained from women, you may eat some of that.' David answered the priest: 'We have indeed been segregated from women as on previous occasions. Whenever I go on a journey, all the young men are consecrated - even for a secular journey.' " - 1 Sam 21:4-6
"Then Moses came down from the mountain to the people and had them sanctify themselves and wash their garments. He warned them, 'Be ready for the third day. Have no intercourse with any woman'" - Ex 19:14-15
Catholics believe that our leaders should be holy, consecrated people and we recognize that celibacy is a means to achieve this. Now, before the claim is made that what is in the Old Testament no longer applies, I point out that the same mindset is seen in the New Testament. It is well recognized that Paul had no wife (1 Cor 7:8) and he recommended the celibacy of widows (1 Tim 5:9-13). He acknowledged that most of the apostles were married (although there is some suggestion that they gave up their wives after being made "fishers of men" (Mt 19:27-29; Mk 10:28-30); however, note that Paul, remaining consistent, informs us just seven verses later that "I have NOT used any of these rights" (1 Cor 9:12) - in fact, he had written just two chapters earlier:
"I wish that all were as I myself am [celibate]. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another." - 1 Corinthians 7:7
Paul goes on to explain why he thinks celibacy is a good idea:"I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided." - 1 Corinthians 7:32-24
Allow me a medical analogy. As a busy physician specializing in internal medicine, my time is spent in long hours at the hospital, in early morning rounds or meetings and late at night with critically ill patient. My work requires that I am gone from home at least one weekend per month, leaving my wife and three-year-old son behind. In a similar way, my interests "are divided" between my job and my family, and I submit that a married Protestant minister has many of the same demands on his or her time. What better solution than to not have the responsibility of taking care of a family so that one can focus 100% on serving God and caring for His flock?
Now, if Paul's words are not enough, perhaps the words of Jesus will be enough: "For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it." - Matthew 19:12
*[Nate] Pope Gregory VII (1073-1085) His great object was to Reform the Clergy. The two prevailing Sins of the Clergy were Immorality and Simony; Simony Purchased the Church Office with Money. The Church owned a large share of all property, and had rich incomes. Practically all Bishops and Priests had paid for their office, for it gave them a chance to live in luxury. Kings habitually sold Church Offices to the highest bidder, regardless of fitness or Character.
This brought Pope Gregory into bitter contest with Henry IV, emperor of Germany. He deposed Gregory. Gregory, in turn, excommunicated and deposed Henry. War followed. For years Italy was divested by the opposing armies.
[Clay] . “Practically all” is an exaggeration, but at his first Lenten Synod (March, 1074) he enacted the following decrees:
That clerics who had obtained any grade or office of sacred orders by payment should cease to minister in the Church.
That no one who had purchased any church should retain it, and that no one for the future should be permitted to buy or sell ecclesiastical rights.
That all who were guilty of incontinence should cease to exercise their sacred ministry.
That the people should reject the ministrations of clerics who failed to obey these injunctions. (CE)
So, we see that problems were recognized within the Catholic Church, and changes were put in place to improve things – pity this doesn’t occur within the 2x2’s…..
[Nate] In [1090] The Rosary was added, it was used by the heathen and now accepted by the Church.
[Clay] Wrong. The Rosary is quite biblical. “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee (Lk 1:28). Blessed are thou among women, and blessed in the fruit of thy womb, Jesus (Lk 1:42). Holy Mary, mother of God (Lk 1:43), pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death (Rev 5:8).”
[Nate] In [1215] Confession of sins to a Priest.
[Clay] Wrong. Confession of sins was in practice as early as the 1st and 2nd Century, as seen in the Didache. It is also supported by Scripture: Just as Jesus had the authority to forgive sins (Mt 9:2-8), He gave the apostles His authority to forgive sins in His name (Jn 20:22-23), and this process continued through the church (2 Cor 5:17-20, James 5:13-15, James 5:16, Mt 18:18)
I[Nate] nnocent III (1198-1216). Most Powerful of all the Popes. Claimed to be " Vicar of God," "Supreme Sovereign over the Church and the world." Claimed the right to Depose Kings and Princes; and that "All things on earth and in heaven and in hell are subject to the Vicar of Christ." He brought the Church into Supreme Control of the State. The kings of Germany, France, England, and practically all the Monarchs of Europe obeyed his will. Never in history has any one man exerted more power.
[Clay] The Bible is quite clear that Peter was first among the Apostles. Jesus changed his name and gave him the keys to the kingdom of heaven (see below). Matthew even calls Peter "the first" in Mt 10:2. The Greek word is "protos" does not necessarily mean first chronologically; for example, we know that Andrew was chronologically the first Apostle (Jn 1:41), so the reference to Peter as "the first" clearly implies a position of importance among them. Scripture has many, many other references to Peter as leader; for example, Peter alone is supernaturally enabled by Christ to walk on water (Mt 15), and when his faith wavers, Jesus does not allow him to sink. Peter leads the Apostles in fishing (Jn 23:2-11), and, Jesus preaches from Peter's boat with the resultant miraculous catch of fish (Lk 5:1-11), making Peter and others "fishers of men" (Mt 4:19). Immediately after receiving the Keys to the kingdom, the tax collectors immediately go to Peter to ask the question about paying taxes, and it is Peter who miraculously pays the tax from the fish's mouth, empowered again by Jesus (Mt 17:24-27) Invariably, Peter is always listed first when the Apostles are listed (Mt 10:2, Mk 3:16, Lk 6:14, Acts 1:13), while Judas is listed last. Jesus specifically prays that Peter's faith may not fail (quote) and He instructed Peter to "feed my sheep" (Jn 21:15-17) and to "strengthen your brethren" (Lk 22:32) Peter performs the first miracle after Christ's death and resurrection (Acts 3:6-12) and utters the first anathema (Acts 5:2-11). He was even the first after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40). Peter is clearly regarded as leader by the Jews (Acts 4:1-13), other people (Acts 2:37-41, 5:15), as well as the Apostles and presbyters and the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). He was the first to speak in the Upper Room before Pentecost (Acts 1:15-22) and after Pentecost (Acts 2:14-36). Peter is the first one sent for, and to enter, the empty tomb of Jesus (Lk 24:12). He was the one to initiate a replacement for Judas (Acts 1:22), and is identified by one of God's angels as leader and representative of the Apostles (Lk 16:7), and there are many, many more references.... Catholics believe that, just as Peter was made the chief shepherd of Jesus’ flock in John 21:15-17, Peter’s successors maintain this authority, through Christ, NOT instead of Christ.
[Nate] Forbade the Reading of the Bible in vernacular.
[Clay] Wrong. As early as the 6th Century, Gregory I wrote the following:"The Emperor of heaven, the Lord of men and of angels, has sent you His epistles for your life’s advantage—and yet you neglect to read them eagerly. STUDY THEM, I BEG YOU, and meditate daily on the words of your Creator. Learn the heart of God in the words of God, that you may sigh more eagerly for things eternal, that your soul may be kindled with greater longings for heavenly joys." [Letters, 5, 46. (EnchBibl 31)]
Pope Leo XIII had to say: "The solicitude of the apostolic office naturally urges and even compels us…to desire that this grand source of Catholic revelation (the Bible) should be made safely and ABUNDANTLY ACCESSIBLE to the flock of Jesus Christ"
And Pope St. Pius X "Nothing would please us more than to see our beloved children FORM THE HABIT of reading the Gospels - not merely from time to time, but every day."
Pope Benedict XV repeated St. Jerome's statement: “Ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of Christ." and he expressed his desire that, "... all the children of the Church, especially clerics, to reverence the Holy Scriptures, to read it piously and meditate on it CONSTANTLY."
So, we see that Nate’s characterization of a Catholic Church forbidding Bible reading is a damnable lie.
[Nate] Ordered the Extermination of Heretics. Instituted the Inquisition. Ordered the Massacre of the Albigenses.
[Clay] Wrong. Pope Innocent III did not “order the massacre” of anyone; he recommended that those deemed heretics be handed over to the secular authorities:
"Let those condemned be handed over to the secular authorities present, or to their bailiffs, for due punishment...Let secular authorities, whatever offices they may be discharging, be advised and urged and if necessary be compelled by ecclesiastical censure, if they wish to be reputed and held to be faithful, to take publicly an oath for the defence of the faith to the effect that they will seek, in so far as they can, to expel from the lands subject to their jurisdiction all heretics designated by the church in good faith." (Lateran IV, canon 3)
[Nate] It was the Church Court for Detection and Punishment of Heretics. Under it everyone was required to inform against Heretics. Anyone suspected was liable to be Tortured, without knowing the name of his accuser. The proceedings were secret. The Inquisitor pronounced sentence, and the victim was turned over to Civil Authority to be Imprisoned for Life, or to be burned. The victim's property was confiscated, and divided between the Church and the State.
[Clay] McGoldrick, a Baptist who would have no reason to defend the Catholic Church, contends that the inquisitors were “quite honest” in their evaluation, and their charges of heresy “show a restraint that increases the likelihood of their legitimacy” (Baptist Successionism 60). It should be noted that Pope Lucius III first attempt to counter this heretical group did not involve the Church, but secular authorities, in his decree Ad Abolendam, and McGoldrick also notes that there were times when, much like during the Spanish Inquisition, “atrocities were perpetrated by civil authorities without resort to inquisitorial proceedings” (ibid 66).
[Nate] In the period immediately following Pope Innocent III the Inquisition did its most DEADLY work against the Aligeneses. But also claimed vast multitudes of victims in Spain, Italy, Germany, and the Netherlands.
[Clay] The consequence of holding heretical views were not immediately met with bloodthirsty torture and mayhem; according to the decrees from the 4th Lateran Council, they were to have their goods confiscated, clerics were to be removed from their orders, they were not allowed access to the sacraments or Christian burial - do any of these sound like the bloodbath Nate Barker would have you believe? It should also be noted that violence occurred on both sides; for example, it actually wasn’t until papal legate Peter of Castelnau was murdered by nobles who supported the Albigenses that Pope Innocent III called for a Crusade (Laux, Church History 353.). In Italy the Albigenses set fire to churches in Brescia and assassinated the Bishop of Mantua (Ladurie, Montaillou: The Promised Land of Error).
[Nate] Later on the Inquisition was the main agency in Papacy's effort to Crush the Reformation. It is stated that in the 30 years between 1540 and 1570 NO fewer than 900,000 Protestants were put to death in the Pope's war for the Extermination of the Waldenses. Think the Monks and Priests, in holy garments, directing, with heartless Cruelty and Inhuman Brutality, the work of Torturing and Burning alive Innocent Men and Women, and doing in the Name of Christ, by the direct order of the " Vicar of Christ." The Inquisition was the Most Infamous and Devilish thing in Human History. It was devised by Popes, and used by them for 500 years, to maintain their Power.
[Clay] This is nothing more than a sophomoric plea to the reader’s emotions. It does not take into consideration the historical or cultural context, hoping instead to inflame the passions without providing proof. In the Middle Ages, heresy was considered a crime worse than murder; murder only kills the body, but heresy can kill the soul. Therefore, a heretical view was considered not only a heinous crime punishable by death, but also it was considered a crime against the state, to which the entire state should respond. This in no way justifies what may have happened, but see my article on the Waldenses and the Albigenses.
[Nate] More blood was shed under these Popes directions, than in any other period of Church History, except in the Papacy's effort to Crush the Reformation in the 16th and 17th Centuries. One would think NERO, the beast, had come in to life again.
[Clay] Actually, more Catholics have been slaughtered for their faith than any other Christian group, from Roman emperors like Diocletian to the marauding Vikings and Muslems to the Irish Catholics under English control to English Catholics under Protestant control to Asian and Eastern European Catholics under Communist control to African and Asian Catholics in the 20th Century. Body count arguments are pointless, inflammatory, and self-defeating. For more reading, see my Catholic Persecution Page.
[Nate] In [1220] Adoration of the Wafer (Host).
[Clay] Wrong. The belief that Jesus becomes Really Present in the bread and wine (not Wonderbread and grape juice) is supported both biblically and in the writings of the earliest Christians. Jesus said, “this IS my Body” – He didn’t say that “this ‘represents’ my body”. Click here for a full discussion on this matter.
[Nate] In [1439] The teaching of Purgatory was added, it was borrowed from the heathen teachings but taught against by Jesus. The Pharisees had been making long Prayer for the dead, a pretense and had the curse of God on it.
[Clay] Wrong. “All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.” ( CCC 1030)
The Bible is clear about an intermediate state. (1 Peter 3:19, 1 Peter 4:6). Jesus warned about the sinner for whom there will be no forgiveness “either in this age or in the age to come” (Mt 12:32) Since the Bible tells us that nothing unclean shall enter heaven (Rev 21:27, Heb 12:14), some will undergo a final purification process (1 Corinthians 3:13-15, 1 Pet 1:7) but still enter heaven. This is because Catholics believe that when God justifies us, we are actually made clean, not just have our sins “covered”. Once purified (Heb 12:23), we will enter fully into the kingdom of God.
Now, Jesus referred to the value of expiation of sins in this life, rather than in purgatory (Mt 5:25-26) and that there are degrees of expiation for sins (Luke 12:47-48) Just as someone who steals a car and is caught, simply apologizing for it isn’t enough; there still remains punishment. Indulgences are what we receive when the Church lessens the temporal penalties to which we may be subject even though our sins have been forgiven.
Sin results in guilt and punishment (Is. 1:18 Ps. 51:2, 7) and temporal penalties may remain once a sin is forgiven (Heb 12:5-13, 2 Sam 12, Num. 14:13-23, Num. 20:12; cf. 27:12-14). God blesses some people as a reward to others (Gen. 15:1-6, Gen. 17:6-8, Rom. 11:28, (Mt 15:22-28) and even remits temporal penalties suffered by some as a reward to others (1 Kgs. 11:11-13, Gen. 18:16-33, Rom 11:28-29) God does this through the Church (Mt 9:8, Jn 20:21-23, Mt 18:18) and in 2 Macc 12:42, God blessed dead Christians as a reward to living Christians. Ways of doing penance include fasting, prayer, and alms-giving (Mt 6:16-18, Mk 2:18-20, Acts 13:2-3, James 4:8-10, Rev 11:3)
[Nate] Now corruption entered the church as in politics, so they began to sell Indulgence. This is privilege to commit a sin, NOT YET done. It became so corrupt that it ushered in the age of reformation.
[Clay] Absolutely wrong. An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment for sin the guilt of which is already forgiven. As the Catholic Encyclopedia states: It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power. It is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty, and much less from the obligation consequent on certain kinds of sin, e.g., restitution; on the contrary, it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God. It does not confer immunity from temptation or remove the possibility of subsequent lapses into sin. Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer's salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject.
For a fuller discussion, click here.
[Nate] Luther
(1483-1546), John Calvin (1509- 1564), John Knox (1515-1572).
They were not trying to break up the Church or damage it. They wanted to reform it because so much corruption had entered in the Church. These 3 men were excommunicated.
[Clay] Corruption had “entered the church” as early as Paul’s letters to the Corinthians, so this is not a new problem. Excommunicated” means “cut off from communion with the Church”. It does not mean that the person is killed, or any other fanciful anti-Catholic notions. The Church has been reforming herself since the beginning. Luther, despite his original intent, broke with the Catholic Church because he believed in salvation by faith alone (sola fide) and in the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura, which is that the Bible is the sole rule of faith. Catholics, on the other hand, maintain that faith must be accompanied by works (James 2:24) and that sacred Tradition is equally as authoritative as sacred Scripture.
[Nate] Nicolas V (1447-1455) authorized the King of Portugal to war on the African Peoples, take their property and enslave people.
[Clay] Another insufferable lie. The Catholic Church has always spoken out against slavery. In fact, in 1435 Pope Eugene IV issued the scathing document Sicut Dudum specificially in response to the activities of Spain and Portugal, which were quickly become the powers of Europe: “[The colonists] have deprived the natives of their property or turned it to their own use, and have subjected some of the inhabitants of said islands to perpetual slavery, sold them to other persons and committed other various illicit and evil deeds against them…Therefore We…exhort, through the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ shed for their sins, one and all, temporal princes, lords, captains, armed men, barons, soldiers, nobles, communities and all others of every kind among the Christian faithful of whatever state , grade or condition, that they themselves, desist from the aforementioned deeds, cause those subject to them to desist from them, and restrain them vigorously. And no less do we order and command all and each of the faithful of each sex that, within the space of fifteen days of the publication of these letters in the place where they live, that they restore to their earlier liberty all and each person of each sex who were once residents of said Canary Islands…who have been made subject to slavery. These people are to be TOTALLY and PERPETUALLY free and are to be let go without the extraction of any money. If this is not done, when the fifteen days have passed, they incur the sentence of excommunication ipso facto” (emphasis mine)
Sadly, Nate has lied repeatedly in his efforts to discredit the Roman Catholic Church, when I can provide quotes from popes throughout the centuries who denounced slavery, including Gregory the Great, Hadrian I, Alexander III, Innocent III, Gregory IX, Pius II, Leo X, Paul III, Urban VIII, Benedict XIV, Pius VII and Gregory XVI…..
[Nate] Pius II (1458-1464) was said to have been the father of many illegitimate children, spoke openly of the methods he used to seduce women, encouraged young men to, and even offered to instruct them in methods of self-Indulgence.
[Clay] Unfounded, stupid, and irrelevant.
[Nate] Sixtus IV (1471-148) Sanctioned the Spanish Inquisition. Decreed that money would deliver Souls from Purgatory. Used the Papacy to enrich himself and his relatives. Made eight of his nephews Cardinals, while yet some of them were mere boys. In luxurious and lavish entertainment he rivaled the Caesars. In wealth and pomp he and his relatives surpassed the old Roman Families.
[Clay] See the article Inquisition
[Nate] Innocent VIII (1484-1492). Had 16 children by various married women. Multiplied Church Offices, and sold them for vast sums of money. Decreed the Extermination of the Waldenses, and sent an army against them. Appointed the brutal Thomas of Torquemada Inquisitor General of Spain, and ordered all rulers to delivered up Heretics to him.
[Clay] Nate is repeating his earlier lies instead of providing new (and adequately documented) material. See my article on the Waldenses.
[Nate] Julius II (1503-1513), as richest of cardinals, with vast income from numerous churches estates, Indulgences for money. Martin Luther visited Rome, in his day, and was appalled at what he saw.
[Clay] Lame editorialization, lacking actual evidence. See more info on Julius II here.
[Nate] Indulgences: According to Romist teaching, Purgatory is very much the same as Hell, only it does not last as long; but all have to pass through it.
[Clay] Wrong. Purgatory is not like hell. Since nothing unclean may enter heaven (Rev 21:27), those who will eventually go to heaven must undergo a “purification” process (1 Cor 3:15).
[Nate] Pope Sixtus (1476), was the first to apply them to souls already in Purgatory. Indulgences were farmed out, to be retailed. Thus " selling the privilege to sin "became one of the main sources of Papal Revenues.
[Clay] Wrong. Although Nate is being redundant, an indulgence is NOT the “selling the privilege to sin”. See previous discussion on indulgences.
[Nate] In (1517) John Tetzel came through Germany selling certificates, signed by the Pope, offering pardons of all sins, to buyers and their friends, without confession, repentance, Penance, or absolution by the priest. This horrified Luther.
[Clay] Lies. Even the historian Beard writes that “Even while he lived stories which contained an element of legend gathered around his name, until at last, in the minds of the uncritical Protestant historians, he became typical indulgence-monger, upon whom any well-worn anecdote might be fathered" (Martin Luther, London, 1889, 210) The charge that the forgiveness of sins was sold for money regardless of contrition or that absolution for sins to be committed in the future could be purchased is baseless. An indulgence, he writes, can be applied only "to the pains of sin which are confessed and for which there is contrition". "No one", he furthermore adds, "secures an indulgence unless he have true contrition". The confessional letters (confessionalia) could of course be obtained for a mere pecuniary consideration without demanding contrition. But such document did not secure an indulgence. It was simply a permit to select a proper confessor, who only after a contrite confession would absolve from sin and reserved cases, and who possessed at the same time facilities to impart the plenary indulgence (Paulus, Johann Tetzel, 103).