Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
** Tell me, what is the scripturally-defined allowable period of time between the same prayer? The emphasis should be placed upon the word "vain", not "repetition" " Jesus discouraged the pagan practice of vain prayer to multiple gods that don't exist, rather than simply repetitious prayer itself. In fact, Scripture has many references to repetition in prayer that was not "vain"; for example, "But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'" (Lk 18:13). **
you are reading the scripture in light of your tradition again. You offer Luke 18:10-14 as an example of repetitious prayer. Here is the scripture, and there is NO repetition in the tax-collector's prayer:...If you call that short prayer repetiton, I shudder to think of what a simple prayer would be.
** Repetition is defined by just that - repetition, not duration. Consider also "The widow in Luke 18:2-5 kept coming to Jesus, who eventually said, "...I will vindicate her, or she will wear me out by her continual coming" **
you take this verse [Lk 18:1-7] out of context. First, the woman wasn't praying; rather, coming to a judge. Second, the parable of the woman was given to show that men ought not to lose heart whjen praying,. There is no mention of repetition.
** Prayer is more than just saying some words - our actions can be prayers as well. In this sense, the woman's continuous coming is in fact repetitious in every known sense of the word. Recall this verse: "But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'" (Lk 18:13). Beating the breast with prayer is a customary repetitive act.
Consider also Cornelius, who was "a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius." And he stared at him in terror, and said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayerS and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God." (Acts 10:1-5)
Even Jesus himself engaged in repetitious prayer:
And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, (1) let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt." And he came to the disciples and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, "So, could you not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Again, for the second time, he went away and prayed, "My Father, (2) if this cannot pass unless I drink it, thy will be done." And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. So, leaving them again, he went away and (3)prayed for the third time, SAYING THE SAME WORDS."
Everyone knows that the Psalms are prayers. Look at Psalm 136:
O give thanks to the LORD, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures for ever.
O give thanks to the God of gods, for his steadfast love endures for ever.
O give thanks to the Lord of lords, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
to him who alone does great wonders, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
to him who by understanding made the heavens, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
to him who spread out the earth upon the waters, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
to him who made the great lights, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
the sun to rule over the day, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
the moon and stars to rule over the night, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
to him who smote the first-born of Egypt, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
and brought Israel out from among them, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
with a strong hand and an outstretched arm, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
to him who divided the Red Sea in sunder, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
and made Israel pass through the midst of it, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
but overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red Sea, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
to him who led his people through the wilderness, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
to him who smote great kings, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
and slew famous kings, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
Sihon, king of the Amorites, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
and Og, king of Bashan, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
and gave their land as a heritage, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
a heritage to Israel his servant, for his steadfast love endures for ever.
It is he who remembered us in our low estate, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
and rescued us from our foes, for his steadfast love endures for ever;
he who gives food to all flesh, for his steadfast love endures for ever.
O give thanks to the God of heaven, for his steadfast love endures for ever.
**
notice that not one of these lines of prayer [Psalm 136] begin the same; thus they cannot be classified as vain repetition by definition. Repetition means "to repeat."
** By what stretch of the imagination can you possibly believe that even though the same phrase "for his steadfast love endures for ever" is repeated 26 times in EACH LINE of Psalm 136, this does not meet the definition of "to repeat"? You must have a very unusual concept of what "repeat" means.**
The 'hial[sic] Mary' to a Catholic means she is exalted, and Catholic dogma even calls Mary the "mediatrix" of heaven. Yet scripture says Jesus is the ONLY mediator between man and God:
** Again, "And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!" (Lk 1:28). The word "kekaritomene" is used nowhere else in Scripture. It is used as a title. The perfect passive participle indicates a "completed action with permanent result." Therefore, kekaritomene means "completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." Much like when we ask each other to pray for us, Mary's mediatorship takes absolutely nothing away from Christ being the one mediator, as 1 Tim 2:5-6 says. **
Catholic dogma states that Mary was sinless. However, Mary proclaimed her need for a savior. A Savior delivers from sin:
** Of course - imagine a pit in the middle of the desert, and this pit represents sin. We all are in this pit, but God will pull us out and redeem us, becoming our Saviour. With Mary, God never allowed her to fall into this pit, but in both senses God was her Saviour - be it through rescue or prevention, the means were different, but the end result was the same. **
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:
** While the Lord's Prayer is actually a big part of the Rosary.... **
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
** .... this phrase is a doxology that is not in Matthew's Gospel here. How many times have you prayed the Lord's Prayer? **
Constant prayer is a far cry from the vain repetition of the Rosary. I have heard the rosary prayed on a local radio station, and it is monmotonous [sic]. In other words, it is the repetition of the same words over and over again, without any meaning other than to glorify and make a mediatrix out of Mary. Even though she was blessed to be chosen as the mother of Jesus, she was a sinner like everyone else:
** Any prayer, or phrase (even 'I love you') said repeatedly without feeling is vain repetition. Specifically, the Hail Mary prayer is very scriptural because it includes the phrase "hail Mary... in Lk 1:28 and Lk 1:38 as well as the Lord's Prayer, and, while praying the Rosary, Catholics meditate on the Annunciation, the Crucifixion, etc. Since you have never given me the scriptural basis for any length of time between the same prayers, who are you to presume that the prayers of the Rosary are "vain repetition"? Since your hearing of the Rosary over the radio is a purely subjective interpretation, you have absolutely no scriptural, or rational, basis for determining what is "vain" and what is not. You have also never addressed the issue of other people's intercession when we ask others to pray for us - this is just like what Catholics do with Mary, they ask for Mary to intercede for us to Jesus, the lone Mediator. Finally, for at least the second time, the phrase is "full of grace" - nowhere does Scripture say that Mary had sinned. Rom 3:9-23, when taken in true context, is not talking about Mary; for example, verse 10 says, "There is none righteous, not even one" - yet wasn't Jesus righteous? So we see that there is at least one exception. What about newborn babies - are they sinful, too? **
In the rosary, participants say to Mary, "pray for us sinners now in the hour of our death." Only Jesus lives to make intercession for us; He alone is our Mediator and great high priest:
** Again, Catholics agree that Jesus is the one Mediator and great high priest - there is no disagreement here. We ask each other to pray for us, but this certainly doesn't take away from Jesus' mediatorship. "...pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful." (James 5:16). I think we'd all agree that Mary was pretty righteous!
Also, even Moses was also a "mediator" , for he says: "And now I will go up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin" (Ex 32:30, cf. 31-32), as well as Paul, who was ". . . to be poured out as a libation upon the sacrificial offering of your faith...." (Phil 2:17; cf. 2 Cor 6:4-10) . **
:
Dear brother, you fail to distinguish between the vain repetition of the rosary, and the prayer of Jesus as he willingly, in agony, offered his will to His Father.
** Precisely, Jesus' prayer, while repetitious, was not vain. This is the key distinction. Dear brother, you have yet to define precisely what "vain repetition" means, as the Rosary is said (or should be said) willingly and with deep reverence and love. " **
Luke 1:28 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (KJV) Notice, the scripture does not say, "Hail Mary." It simply says, "Hail." The Greek word is 5463 chairo (khah'-ee-ro); it is a primary verb meaning to be "cheerful", i.e. calmly happy or well-off; impersonally, especially as salutation (on meeting or parting), be well. (from Strong's Electronic Dictionary) The angel was simply and calmly greeting Mary, not giving her a salutation as Roman Catholics do. Note, it is an IMPERSONAL greeting. And you are incorrect in assuming that this verb is not used elsewhere in the same manner. In fact, the word is more commonly translated as "rejoice" or "greeting."
** First, I never claimed Scripture says, "Hail Mary". The text reads, "Hail, kecharitomene. Since the angel is addressing Mary, it becomes obvious to most readers that Mary is the the addressee. This word is a name, which means "full of grace", and is used nowhere else in Scripture. I quote Protestant Greek scholar A.T. Robertson, who writes:""Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow'" (Word Pictures in the New Testament, 14)
Second, kecharitomene is a new name, and we all know that name changes in Scripture are significant - Abram (Hebrew "father") to Abraham ("father of multitudes), Jacob to Isreal, Saul to Paul, Simon to Peter, etc.
Third, according to Blass &; DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, Chicago: Univ. of Chicago Press, 1961, p.166; Smyth, H.W. and Greek Grammar, Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1968, sec. 1852:b. it is perfectly acceptable to interpret kecharitomene to mean completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.
Fourth, the Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon shows clearly that chairo is a form of greeting [III, 1. at meeting, hail, welcome (esp. in the morning, freq. in imper. chaire, dual chaireton, pl. chairete, as a form of greeting)],
which fits the text more accurately since the angel had just appeared to Mary, which is why nearly every single Bible translates it as Hail. Surely you don't presume to know more than the vast majority of Greek scholars over the past 1000 years?
Fifth, this correct usage of hail is seen where other people are addressed, not being told to rejoice, for example:
Mt 26:49, "Immediately he went over to Jesus and said, 'Hail, Rabbi' and he kissed him"
Mt 27:29, "And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, 'Hail, King of the Jews' (cf Jn 19:3) **
the angel was simply telling mary to rejoice; he was not exalting her.
** As I demonstrated above, your interpretation does great violence to the text. Furthermore, show me one single place in Scripture where an angel of God addresses a mere human with such a "impersonal" greeting. You won't, because the greeting isn't impersonal, because she was Mary, because she is also named "kecharitomene" - because she is full of grace.
Even Martin Luther, the original Protestant "reformer", held a starkly different view from yours: ""It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin." [Martin Luther; "Sermon On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God", 1527] **
There is something I want you to look at. Go back to Nimrod and his wife in the book of Genesis. Take a peek into the history of the two and the religion they started. Once you see this, you may have a better understanding as to where the Catholic church came up with some of their traditional values. (IDOL WORSHIP)
** The Catholic Church has never believed in idol worship - you are completely mistaken. "Once you see this, you may have a better understanding as to where the Catholic Church came up with some of their traditional values". **
Another thing. In the past 50 or so years, a group of missionaries went journeying through the South American jungles, and happened to stumble across a tribe of people that practiced a similar false religion. The scary fact of this is the ritials the tribe used in their ceremonies were mirrored refelections of those used in the days of Nimrod! That's not all. They mirrored the same rituals that are done in the Catholic church!!!
** First, similarity does not imply descent - this applies to Mithraism, Zoroaster, and even South American tribal rituals. Second, are you aware that circumcision was adapted from pagan ritual? The fact that there may be some things in common with non-Christians has absolutely nothing to do with what Christians believe. **
I know that arguement [sic] already about Catholics recieving the true salvation of the bible and are being filled with the holy spirit. That is wonderful. But what I am finding hard to understand is why would a person want to keep a name that is haunted with such bloodshed, corruptness, and falseness.
** Would you care to give specific details? If you like, I can show how Protestantism is just as guilty of "bloodshed, corruptness, and falseness" (Salem witch trials, John Calvin, Irish Catholic starvation by the millions, abortion, birth control, England's persecution of Catholic priests, the Holocaust, etc.), if not more so. This objection is meaningless, as it not only is counterproductive, but also merely describes sinful Christian behavior, not Catholic doctrine. **
I love the Catholics, and I pray that ALL of them realize their Father is in heaven, not the closet.
** You'll be relieved to know that ALL Catholics realize our Father is in heaven. **
Lest anyone think that any propositions expounded in this book are too advanced, I declare that I mean them in the sense in which they are conformable to the teachings of Holy Church and of sound theology. For example, in calling Mary our mediatress, I mean that she is a mediatrix of grace, and that her office differs from that of Jesus Christ, who is our principal and sole mediator of justice. In calling Mary omnipotent (as Saint John Damascene, Saint Peter Damian, Saint Bonaventure, Saint Cosmas of Jerusalem, and others have done), I intend to signify that, as Mother of God, she obtains from him by her prayers all that she asks for the benefit of her clients. Taken absolutely, neither mediation nor omnipotence is attributable to Mary, since she is only a creature. In calling her our hope, I mean that all graces (as Saint Bernard teaches) pass through her hands.
- Saint Alphonsus Liguori, The Glories of Mary