Peter the Rock

The Catholic response is in BLUE


Was Augustine wrong too? [about Peter being the rock]

**First, let me say that the fact Augustine entertained two possibilities about who "the rock" was doesn't even come close to what you want it to mean, which is that he didn't believe Peter was the Rock; in fact, look at the last sentence of your citation again, " Yet the reader may decide which of the two interpretations is the more probable." Second, there is no doubt whatsoever that Augustine supported Peter's primacy, and I'll show this by once again giving citations you neglected to mention:
"Among these [apostles] PETER ALONE almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear 'I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2)

"Some things are said which seem to relate especially to the apostle Peter, and yet are not clear in their meaning unless referred to the Church, which he is acknowledged to have represented in a figure on account of the primacy which he bore among the disciples. Such is 'I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,' and other similar passages. In the same way, Judas represents those Jews who were Christ's enemies" (Commentary on Psalm 108 ).

"WHO IS IGNORANT that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter?" (Commentary on John 56:1) **


that's called a fallacy of logic. Just because I have, at this point, NOT responded to your incessant picking does NOT mean I am unable to respond.

** I'm well aware of where the fallacy lies. There's no fallacy in asking you to justify the authority by which you make proclamations of truth, such as the RCC is a "spiritual wasteland". I've asked you repeatedly to prove your authority, but you won't do it. If you're going to claim your interpretation of the Bible is more correct than mine, you simply must be able to prove how; and since you assert that the Bible is the sole rule of faith, you first must be able to prove what the Bible is. **

Since His church is not dependent in any way upon human heritage or history but upon the power of the Spirit and Christ's promise that HE would build His church, I don't see any relevance in your remark. What men do in His name does not impinge upon His own plans.

** Speaking of fallacy, your "what men do" sentence is an antithesis fallacy. My remark is completely relevant when God's promise for the Church built on the Rock included that it would never fail (Mt 16:19).**

The quote I gave was from his "Retractiones" written towards the end of his life. What does "Retractiones" mean to you? And where do your quotes chronologically lie in relation to the quote I gave from Augustine.?

** Again, there is no inconsistency here. Context is just as important as chronology. Just as Jesus is the spiritual rock in heaven (1 Peter 2:6), Peter represents Jesus as the rock on earth (as do his successors) - see below. **

So, to quote you: "So now that I’ve shown that Augustine disagrees with you on [Peter as the rock], do you think perhaps you should ask God to help youponder [Matthew 16] again?"

** Actually, you've not even come close to doing this. I've shown quite clearly that Augustine believed Peter was the earthly representative of Jesus in heaven, which I'll do again below - you so desperately want his alternating opinions on the Rock to prove your point, but it doesn't. **

you are equally doing what you accuse me of; namely, quoting ONLY those texts which support your opinion. Be honest.

** I always try to be honest. By the way, why didn't you address the 3 quotes from Augustine that prove quite clearly that he supported Peter's primacy? Here's another one for you:
"If the very order of episcopal succession is to be considered, how much more surely, truly, and safely do we number them [the bishops of Rome] from Peter himself, to whom, as to one representing the whole church, the Lord said, 'Upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer it.' Peter was succeeded by Linus, Linus by Clement . . . " (Letters 53:1:2)
What a fascinating quote! Here, not only does Augustine again support Peter's primacy, but he also gives the line of succession of Popes! Since you think you can use Church Father's writings, then I'll assume you accept that this proves apostolic succession for the Catholic Church. :-) **

as Hilary, and Gregory Nyssen, and Chrysostom, and Cyril of Alexandria. St Augustine, GOING STILL FURTHER away from the true sense, interprets, "on this rock", that is, "on myself Christ", because Christ was the rock. But Origen, "on this rock", that is to say, "on all men who have the same faith". - Maldonatus, a Jesuit.

** Do any of these reject the primacy of Peter, which is really what this discussion is about? I'm not sure what this quote means, either, because I've gone through each writer listed and found where they very clearly supported Peter as the rock or foundation of the Church:

ORIGEN wrote "Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, UPON WHOM Christ built the Church [Matt. 16:18]... (Homilies on Exodus 5:4)
Here are a few more quotes from those you mentioned:
AUGUSTINE:

"Number the priests even from that seat of Peter. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: that is the rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer." (Psalmus contr Partem Donati)

"Peter bore the person of the church"(Sermon 149:7)

CYRIL OF ALEXANDRIA

"He promises to found the church, assigning immovableness to it,as He is the Lord of strength, and over this he sets Peter as shepherd." (Commentary on Matthew)

JOHN CHRYSTEOM

"(Peter)The first of the Apostles, the foundation of the Church, the coryphaeus of the choir of disciples."(Ad eos qui scandalizati)
and

"Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who received revelation not from man but from the Father...this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean that unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey" (De Eleemosyna,3:4)

GREGORY OF NYSSA

"The memory of Peter, who is the head of the apostles...he is the firm and most solid rock, on which the savior built his Church." (Panegyric on St. Stephen, 3 )

HILARY

"[B]lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom..." (On the Trinity,6:20)**
 Also consider the research done by the Catholic, Launoy. He surveyed the patristic writers. This is what he found:
17 citations had Peter as the rock of Matt.16.
16 citations identified the rock as Christ
8 citations had the group of Apostles as the rock
44 citations has the confession of faith in Christ as the rock.

In other words over 50% of citations in the patristic writers have the confession of faith in Christ as the rock. Yet the RCC teaches that the ancient and constant faith of the universal Church has ALWAYS held Peter to be the rock. Contradictory?

**It's not contradictory because the identity of the Rock had not formally been determined - this is called development of doctrine.

I'm confused, though, by your citation of Launoy - where in the passage does Peter confess Christ as the rock? Besides, Peter's confession of faith in Jesus as God is an extension of Peter himself, so this amounts to 61 writers supporting Peter as the Rock or his confession (as an extension of himself), which comes to a total of over 70% agreement. Also, Joe Gallegos advised me to ask you to actually show me the writers Lanouy cited – he says that if you actually do that, you’ll find that Lanouy used writers other than early Church Fathers to build up his numbers. I look forward to you giving me the list soon.

While we're on the subject of the rock, however, here are a few Protestant scholars who accept Peter as the Rock:


William Hendriksen, member of the Reformed Christian Church and Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary
"The meaning is, "You are Peter, that is Rock, and upon this rock, that is, on you, Peter I will build my church." Our Lord, speaking Aramaic, probably said, "And I say to you, you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church." Jesus, then, is promising Peter that he is going to build his church on him! I accept this view."(New Testament Commentary:Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew)

Gerhard Maier, leading conservative evangelical Lutheran theologian
"Nowadays a broad consensus has emerged which--in accordance with the words of the text--applies the promise to Peter as a person. On this point liberal (H. J. Holtzmann, E. Schweiger) and conservative (Cullmann, Flew) theologians agree, AS WELL AS representatives of Roman Catholic exegesis."(Biblical Interpretation and Church Text and Context)

Donald A. Carson III, Baptist and Professor of NewTestament at Trinity Evangelical Seminary:
"Although it is true that petros and petra can mean "stone" and "rock" respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and most probably kepha was used in both clauses ("you are kepha" and "on this kepha"), since the word was used both for a name and for a "rock". The Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a masculine name." (The Expositor's Bible Commentary: Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark, Luke)
and
"The word Peter petros, meaning "rock" (Gk 4377), is masculine, and in Jesus' follow-up statement he uses the feminine word petra (Gk 4376). On the basis of this change, many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretations, it is doubtful whether many would have taken "rock" to be anything or anyone other than Peter." (Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary--New Testament, vol. 2)

Contradictory? Just add the meaning of the Rock to the already long list of things Protestants can't agree on. **


The keys of the Kingdom (Mt 16:19,18:18): These keys were given by Jesus for binding and loosing. Does this apply to Peter alone? Mt.18:18? " I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Who was Jesus talking to here? All the disciples. Not Peter alone.

** While all the Apostles were given the authority to bind and loose, only Peter was given the keys. Matthew is clearly referring to Isaiah 22, where the key of the house of David are given to one person - Eliakim - not a group of people.

Don't take my word for it though, here's what Augustine had to say about Peter and the Keys, despite the fact that he had two opinions of "the rock":
"Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear 'I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2)
 Now what about the binding and loosing. How we are to understand this? Jesus is speaking about entrance to the Kingdom. Did the disciples have the authority to admit or deny entrance? Of course not. Only God does. But by preaching the gospel they showed people the door to the Kingdom.

Actually, Jesus is talking about forgiveness of sins. Of course only God admits or denies entrance, but Jesus was talking about something else. He tells the Apostles,
"Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." (Jn 20:21)
i.e., just as Jesus had the authority to forgive sins, He gave the Apostles the same authority.

"After doing this, He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (Jn 20:22-23)
This is the second and last time God breathed on man - therefore, it was a highly significant event. Nowhere in the passage is Jesus talking about giving the Keys to all of those who preach the gospel.

Speaking of Keys, it is interesting to note in John 20 the additional evidence that not only the Apostles but also Mary accepted Peter's primacy. For example, when Mary saw that the stone had been rolled away from the tomb of Jesus, she immediately ran to get Peter (Jn 20:2). The other disciple with Peter outran him to the tomb, but waited for Peter to go in first (Jn 20:5). It was only after Peter entered to tomb that the other disciple went in (Jn 20:8). In other words, it was Peter who was first notified about the empty tomb, and 2 people got to the tomb before Peter (Mary and the other disciple), but waited for Peter to go in first.

Coincidence? Not when you consider the rest of the massive Scriptural support for Peter's primacy (including Matthew 16:16-19).
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