Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 13:10:30
Caleb, Thank you for your email and interest in this subject. Let me respond to
your three points.
1. I was watching some "PBS" special on dying with dignity. There were a couple
of people that were atheists, dying of cancer or aids, something like that, that
showed little or no fear. They did not break down and ask for God. But let's
assume you are right, I tend to think that that would only prove people fear
death. Not that there are no atheists or that there is a God. (Forgive my
double negative.)
2. Because I wear a watch, that proves God exists? (Just kidding) Why do people
suggest that because we know that a watch could not have come into existence
with the help of a designer, then the universe must have come into existence by
a designer, namely God?
I think it is because we see the complexity of the watch, and we know how that
came into existence, and the complexity of the universe, and assume there must
have been a creator or designer. Well, just for the moment, let's assume that
is true. If God created the universe, then his mind must be at least as complex
as the universe. If this is true, where did the complex mind of God come from?
If you say, that God always existed, then why can't we say that about the
universe? It has simply always existed. The only other option that I am aware
of is that something created the mind of God. But how did that mind come into
existence? etc. etc.
3. A. The Bible is God's word.
B. The Bible says God created the heavens and the earth.
C. God would not lie.
D. Therefore, that is proof that God created the heavens and the earth.
Caleb, just a couple of questions. How do you know the Bible is the "word of
God"? What evidence do you have that shows this is true? By the way, if you
wish, I can give you a couple of examples of God lying in the Bible. If you are
interested? But back to your argument, it is circular (I'll explain that later
if you wish) and therefore invalid. There are also a number of assumtions that
must be validated first.
Thank you for your response. Hope to hear from you soon.
"Caleb Hamer"
> wrote:
>Maybe I sent my message to the wrong address. If I did, hear it is again:
>
>Jerry
>What I meant about atheists is that when you are close to death I bet you
>would pray to God just in case you are wrong. I heard that when men were
in
>the war and close to getting killed, they prayed to God even though they
>claimed they didn't believe in Him.
>
>Anyway, for me, all I have to do is look around and ralize that God
exists.
> Like the watch you wear. Do you think it just came together by itself?
>No. Of course not. There was somebody who had to create it and make it
>work. Same with the world. God had to create it. It couldn't have just
>started by itself.
>
>Our pastor uses that ilustration to prove there is a God.
>
>If you just read the Bible which is God's Word, it says God created the
>heavenes and the earth. God can't lie so there is proof.
>
>Caleb
Subject: web site
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 16:24:28
you and you're husband are fucking freaks
Subject: dumbasses
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 21:30:23
I pity you poor stupid fools. But then again, after reviewing your pictures, I wonder if you ever had a normal sex life in the first place. What makes you good enough to tell me what to do in the first place, anyway?
To: "Caleb Hamer"
Subject: Re: ALT FLAME? ON FIRE FOR CHRIST?
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 04:31:53
Hey bro, you are pretty brave. I don't agree with your tone and
style, but do you think you can stand the heat in a group like this?
Their number one goal will be to provoke you, by making sexual
comments about you or about Jesus. If you can drop some thoughts
their way that make them stop and go, hmmmm! you will have
sowed a seed.
Right now I don't have enough time to come to Usenet regularly,
but I check up in this group and about 20 others.
I'm a Christian, used to be an atheist (20 yrs ago this month).
Eventually I'll get a third-party e-mail account so if people like
the ones here send porn & spam, it's not my "real" mailbox.
Something tells me they have plenty of time & motive for
piling Christians' inboxes full of junk.
God bless you for running to the battle. They will be watching
to see if you really do "stay."
-jc
The above is in response to what Caleb wrote on a newgroup as follows:
>When I saw this title I thought it would be by born again Christians who are
>on fire for Jesus and want to harvest lost souls.
>
>Instead, I find it is a blasphemous group of people who have no respect for
>their Creator and Savior
>
>Jesus is coming again. Is it too late for you? God hates the sin AND THE
>SINNER. This means if you are not saved, He hates you and your future is in
>the lake of fire.
>
>You are now without excuse!!!!
>
>I intend to stay here and post in the hope that even one of you will come to
>know the saving power of Jesus Christ. Until then, each and everyone of you
>is doomed to destruction.
>
>Praise God! Hallelujah!!!!
>
>Caleb Hamer
>http://www.geocities.com/calebhamer777
To: calebhamer@hotmail.com Save Address
Subject: (no subject)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 23:02
you insult a good book , the bible, if you read it without turning on
your brain and critical facalties
it should be read and interpreted in the light of reason, something
god gave you but you and all fundies insist on turning off for
literalism and inerrancy
please turn your brain on a bit before it goes into standby mode
cheers andrew
>
> CALEB:
> And you insult the leading of the Holy Spirit!
>
> I interpret the Bible as led by the indwelling in me of the Holy Spirit of
> God. The Bible says the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God. When
> you attempt to apply human reason and logic to the Bible, you will ALWAYS
> fail to understand the true message of God.
>
> Inerrancy? Of course. There are absolutely NO ERRRORS in the Bible. Show
> me anything you think is an error and by the Spirit of God I will prove that
> you are wrong. Praise God!
>
> By your comments, it is obvious to me that you are not a born again
> Christian, washed in the blood of Christ. You cannot perceive the things of
> the spirit for they are not naturally discerned by the unregenerate. What I
> believe is what Jesus and the Apostles taught! Go find a good Bible
> believing Pentecostal church, get saved and get the Holy Spirit. Avoid the
> Lake of Fire which is what you are now destined for.
>
>
Your attempted demeaning comments have found a place on my HATE MAIL PAGE.
To: calebhamer@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Caleb Hamer's Website About Getting Saved
The whole thing about the analolgy that God hates the sinner is false. If God hates the sinner than He hates every person who has ever walked the face of the earth with the only exception being Jesus. When Jn 17:23 says that God loves us just as He loves Jesus this eliminates that theory.
The relationships we have with our parents hugely affect our relationship with God. I grew up with parents who were very secular and goal oriented, the only way I could please them was to do things. When I became a Christian I thought the only way I could be accepted by God is to do things for Him. My impression of Him was totally false. What was your relationship with your parents?
Moses was a sinner, David was a sinner, many important biblical figures were sinners. It is by the grace of God that we get into Heaven and it is love that keeps us in relationship with the Father.
I would be glad to pray for you.
Blessings,
Ryan
To: elsiehamer@hotmail.com
Subject: ?
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 16:16:
I happened to run accross your web site earlier today. Before you go flapping those big lips with hatred and prejudice why don't you get your facts straight first. The Catholic Church does not in any way believe that the pope is taking Jesus’ place. If you knew anything about religion you would know St. Peter was the first Pope. Remember in the bible when God told him to build his church on top of that hill. The pope is just another God fearing man who follows the word of God the best he can. Yes he is the ruler of the Catholic Church and makes all the decisions but he also has 100 cardinals watching his every move. The cardinals decide when he needs to leave. Kind of the same checks and balance system the US government has.
Now the hypocritical part I found in your whole thoughtless blabbering statement is the church you go to. Does your pastor go by any belief manual of any kind? Let me guess his belief manual is how he interprets the bible. So you are criticizing the Pope because he has absolute power to interpret the bible any way he sees fit, which is exactly what your pastor is doing. The only difference is the Pope's church consists of 100s of millions of people and your church consists of a couple hundred. So besides jealousy on your part I don’t see a difference.
You know your religion is still just a break off of the Catholic Church. Catholicism was the very first Christianity and it wasn’t until the medieval period when Martin Luther broke ties with the church and started Lutheranism. After that all the Protestant religions started spawning like rabbits. That’s when kings decided to start getting married to their sisters and things all went down hill. So I suggest you stop and think before you start criticizing your own ancestors.
The Pope is from Poland and believe it or not every country has the same set of names. He changed his name because when you become a Pope you have to take a saint’s name. Most of them got their names back when they were confirmed as kids. Because he admired St. John Paul and wanted to direct his life down the same path as St. John Paul he decided to take his name. This is why he has “the second” after his name. He was not the first to pick St. John Paul.
You really need to grow up and start looking at your life and how you live before criticizing others. That holier then thou attitude you have only makes you look that much more ridiculous. Why can’t you just be happy with your life? Forcing your religion on people will not work and has never worked. People will come to you and listen to you only by example. If you show people how happy you are and how much you enjoy life they will want that and want to become a part of what ever you are so happy with. You keep pushing their head in the water trying to get them to listen all your going to do is drawing them away. The problem is your not happy with your life and because of this you want to bring others down with you. Well guess what, not everybody is as dumb and closed minded as you.
have a nice day
kain
Subject: crackhead
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:22
Oh my god, are you for real? Why would you waste you're time writing such a
fucking stupid article? You obviously know that what
you're saying is a load of shit, and that nobody with any common sense would
take the article seriously. The bible is nothing more
than an elaborate storybook and has absolutely no truth behind it whatsoever.
Get a life.
Subject: thank you
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 17:48
thank you so much i havent been so amused in years
i am a physician my name is dr noah johnson
masterbation is a completly healthy process
and natural
it causes none of the ill effects you have described in your web site
the remedies you have provided for stopping are odd and would drasticly alter ones life for the worse
just to let you know you are helping no one
Subject: Re: Your Remarks About My Philosophy
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:34
Elsie,
If you and your husbands websites are meant to be a joke, then you are doing the best job I could ever have imagined! It is my personal belief that you are atheist trolls either having fun or trying to drive people away from having a true relationship with Jesus Christ. Either way, your sites are drop-dead funny!
However, If your sites are serious then I would suggest getting some serious counseling. Obviously you have a lot of hate and anger stored up inside and you need to get some help before something terrible happens. I can suggest some good born-again psychiatrists to help you out.
Oh, and until Caleb learns how to spell simple words such as "satan" then it might not be a good idea to critisize other people for their spelling. Especially when you have done nothing to show that my arguments arre invalid according to the scriptures!
Also, please show me the "tons" of spelling mistakes on my web page!
Once again, please find some help before you hurt yourselves.
Matt
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "Elsie Hamer"
To: Matt
Subject: Re: Your Remarks About My Philosophy
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 00:54
My husband and I have discussed your comments below. I want to answer you but my husband Caleb says not to say what is on my mind. You don't know whether to take me serious? Well, The Bible and salvation ARE serious.
Caleb is removing your web page from his site. That is your loss. He will write a web page on evolution without a bunch of spelling mistakes in it. Yours is an embarrassment. Our pastor says he can shoot your arguments down easily and that you should learn more about evolution so you can discuss it with a little intelligence.
You said "according to my philosophy" in the guestbook and I asked you what my philosophy is. You didn't answer my question. That is because YOU DON'T KNOW!
You speak of "examining" my reply to you as though you are some educated expert passing judgment on what I have to say. Well, God will judge me - you don't need to.
You call us bigots and separate us from the true men and women of God. Apparently God has given you the right to judge mankind. Congratulations.
And let you know more about our philosophy? Why? So you can send more insulting comments to us? No thank you.
Here is a suggestion. Take a course in spelling. I may not be a genius but at least I know how to spell. Your spelling is horrible. Your spelling is a disgrace. I hope you don't try to represent Christianity spelling words the way you do. My husband says you must go to college if you spell like that because most college students don't know how to spell.
My husband and I will pray for you that God will lead you to the truth! Right now you seem to get your kicks out of putting Christians down. I don't for one moment believe you are a Christian. No Christian would attack a brother or sister the way you have.
In Christ,
Elsie Hamer
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Matt
Subject: Your Remarks About My Philosophy
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 01:06
You wrote in my guestbook:
"According to your philosophy shouldn't it be a sin for a woman to have her own web page?"
My husband and I have just returned hom from a glorious prayer service at our little church. It is late now and were tired so I won't go into any details about your remark above and I will answer you more tomorrow or the next day.
Since your demanding that I give you Bible verses, suppose you give me a Bible verse that says its a sin for a woman to have her own web page.
And since your refering to my philosphy, how about telling me all about what my philosphy is exactly. I mean you seem to know all about my philosphy from your remark so tell me all about what it is. I don't have much information on my website about everything I believe so I'm wondering how you know exactly what my philosphy is.
My husband says your the same one who called him a athiest troll or something like that.
We both think you are the devils tool and are being used by him to try to undermine the kingdom of God. You better find a good born again Pentecostal Christian church and really get saved. You aren't saved now or you wouldn't be talking like you do and attacking my husband and I. Christians don't attack Christians and WE are Christians.
I will reply to you more when I get time tomorrow to give you the Bible verses you don't seem to know yourself. I wonder if you even have a Bible.
Love in Christ,
Elsie Hamer
To: elsiehamer@hotmail.com
Subject: you hav way too much free time
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:33
Your idea is right , but your methods are all wrong. It is this kind of dribble that gives christians a bad name. Blaming the old testement for sinnful thought is blasphemic at least.
What ever pastor lead you to these thought or didn't correct you will surely have to answer to God for this one. Please get your facts straight first, pray and see if it God's will to put up something like this online
Copyright (c) 2002 - Caleb & Elsie
Hamer