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Posted 2-04-06 on shiachat <http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=77877>

 

 

Okay the Christian brother responded and will read this topic Insha'Allah so here is my replies to his enquiries. It seems my good Christian friend I have to first apologise for the abrupt and rude e-mail I must say I ashamed however Insha'Allah it will not happen again.

The main thing I see is that you have not read my answers properly this is not idiosyncratic in missionarie work nor dialogues however please do not persist in the lack of paying attention for I do not like repeating myself. Please and thank you okay lets begin.

He wrote in regards to Answer 19 "I'm interested to see how statement B is produced out of statement A in your mind:

A: Allah is most gracious and most merciful.

B: Allah promises to forgive.

Those are two radically different statements. I don't discard the possibility of B being true after reading A. Only, it is not possible to PROVE B merely by declaring A."

That is wonderful and very optimistic however I explained in Answer 10 why we are Promised forgiveness. Please refer to it everyone who is reading this. As far as them being radical different statements we will cover this later Insha'Allah keep reading.

He said in regards to Answer 20. "Is it really true that ANYONE who asks forgiveness in Islam forgiven is forgiven? I will leave it to your fellow Islamic Scholarly Judges to reprove you for that statement."

Yes it is True if the repentance is sincere and the person does not persist in the action. Everyone please refer to Answer 10 no Scholars needed however they agree with me I have read much Tafsir literature.

He said in regards to Answer 21 "I would like you to produce several Qur'anic and hadithic verses proving that forgiveness is PROMISED."

Alrighty then my signature is a great start. "Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. " Holy Quran 39:53

With Hadith Literature you judgeing by your site have only encountered Sunni Hadiths which are no doubt in some cases insults to the Holy Prophet Muhammad with the Promise of forgiveness in our Authentic Hadiths Allah SWT does every act with Divine Grace towards mankind (refer to al‑Hilli, al‑Babu 'l‑Hadi 'Ashar, p. 99) in other words all the pain comes from ourselves and shaytan and as warnings.

Allah has said, "Surely I am most Forgiving to whoever repents and believes and does good deeds" (Qura'n, 20:82).

The words derived from forgiveness have mostly been associated with Allah. One of them is al-Ghafir as in this verse: "The One Who forgives the sins" (Qura'n, 40:3). The second is al-Ghafur; He has said, "... then [if he] asks forgiveness of Allah, he shall find Allah Forgiving, Merciful" (Qura'n, 4:110). A third is al-Ghaffar as in: "And surely I am most Forgiving to one who repents and believes and does good deeds" (Qura'n, 20:82), "... seek forgiveness of your Lord; surely He is the most Forgiving" (Qura'n, 71:10), and "... surely He is the Mighty, the great Forgiver" (Qura'n, 39:5). It is proven, by making a reference to the Holy Qura'n, that all these Attributes, which are derived from forgiveness, are applied only to Allah, the Most Exalted One. Having killed a Copt, Moses implored his Lord thus: "Lord! Surely I have harmed my own self; so, forgive me" (Qura'n, 28:16). He first admitted his sin then sought His forgiveness. Allah also revealed the fault of David then said, "So We forgave him this (lapse)" (Qura'n, 38:25). He addressed Muhammed saying, "So that Allah may forgive your past and future faults" (Qura'n, 48:2). Has He not in these examples exposed a sin then forgiven it? In one of his supplications, Prophet Muhammed says, "Lord! I implore You to forgive me an apparent forgiveness and a concealed one, and to forgive open and secret sins."

The above response was by Yasin T. al-Jibouri.

In another tradition one of the companions of the Prophet asked "What did you hear the Messenger of Allah say with regard to one's silent supplication?" He answered by saying that he had heard the Messenger of Allah say, "Allah, the most Honoured, the Most Great, will touch His servant who believes in Him with His mercy by veiling his sin from the public in the life of this world, and in the life hereafter He will ask him about each and every sin and fault he had committed. Once he admits all of them and realizes that he is going to perish on their account, the Almighty will say, `I have veiled your sins in the past short life, and in this one I am going to forgive them.' Then he will be handed the book of his good deeds."

It is pretty clear that Forgiveness is undoubtly Promised in Islam to those who seek it.

He then said in regards to Answer 23 "Then what is the purpose of forgiveness? If God did not require perfection, then He would not require that we be forgiven. The fact that we need to be forgiven proves that God requires perfection."

It does no such thing on the extreme opposite. It implies the fact that Almighty God has Blessed us with Free Will as life (in Islam) is a test. When you take a test at Unversity does the fact that the Teacher can correct your work later on imply you need perfection to pass? If so you need a new Unversity choice

For example Allah SWT Says "Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere," (Holy Quran, 2:155) and "Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly Hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil,-then that will be a determining factor in all affairs." (Holy Quran, 3:186)

Since life is a test (We have Free Will) and we are promised forgiveness this explicitly shows that perfection is not required how or what made you derive the conclusion that it would mean otherwise is beyond me. Obviously we will make mistakes having free will and being tested, the actual crux of the test is whether or not we ask forgiveness for the mistakes and remain steadfast through the tests.

He then said "Yes. God CAN forgive sins without being just. But then God wouldn't be just, meaning God wouldn't be God according to the Bible. I'm not sure about what virtues the god of Islam is said to possess, but the Christian God is committed to justice, all the while granting mercy.

That is one of the chief arguments in the paper in case, that offending God does not come without a price. God is holy, and man is everything but. I am a bit surprised that even you, a self-proclaimed guru of the Bible, correcting Christian's in their own theology, does not understand the magnitude of sin's consequence and the necessary steps of its remediation as laid out clearly down through the repeated drum of the line of prophets."

The idea that Almighty God killing somebody is Just is absolutely repugnant and does not imply Mercy not by the Tanakh nor the Holy Quran nor is it even needed. Considering Almighty God can do anything it is a mystery as to why Christians think He would need to kill. Since He can do anything He can forgive without killing if this is True then the crux of Christian theology is the extreme opposite of Mercy i.e Almighty God (God Forbid) wants to kill.

What is the Price? Shouldnt the shop owner choose? You tell me what you will say when the local 7/11 guy says "Okay that will be one sinless man and 16,00 years of sacrificed lamb". Indeed there is a price and according to Judaism and Islam it is prayer, repentance, good deeds, and trying not to do bad deeds very simple, very just, and most of all logical.

He then said on Trinity "So because it is confusing to Servidor, it means it is not true. I'm picturing Servidor in an E&M Physics class raising his hand to the professor and when called upon says, "now, Prof, what you teach does not make sense to me, and what the books teaches is totally wack. Therefore It CANNOT be true." I think the whole class would be laughing at him by now, just as anyone reading his great response above. Even the Qur'an says that no one will understand God's writings fully but God Himself. To claim that God is supposed to fit inside Servidor's head is blasphemy."

As far as the Trinity. Almighty God cannot be understood in His Entirety I respect and understand this but there are certain bounds. In Islam Almighty God has 99 Attributes that we may understand Him by for example. Al-Ghaffar (The Forgiving) this is Almighty God telling man that He is Ever Forgiving as such we need not be confused on the concept of whether Almighty God forgives or not.

When it was said in the Old Testament

1. "Moses said, "As you say! So that you may know that there is no one like the Lord our God, "

2. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

3. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"

4. "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

5. "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."

6. "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."

Then later on there is supposedly two seperate identities different yet exactly the same. And while we are on the topic of the older scripture bring me one Prophecy from the Tanakh (Just try lol I have a Hebrew dictionary and Jewish Relatives you will not put one pass me) that says God can be man or will be a man.

Trinity is not being able to understand Almighty God that is not what I meant I simply mean that the scripture never implies it nor is it logical by Almighty Gods Nature. Sure we cannot understand Him in His entirety but surely He would not confuse mankind once again that is not Just nor is it Merciful and you missed the crux of my Biblical quote:

"For God is NOT the author of confusion . ." I CORINTHIANS 14:33 That does not mean we can understand each and every detail about Him however it strongly implies that He does not confuse mankind. Any single human who has learnt 2nd Grade Mathematics and read only the Tanakh would laugh at the Trinity Doctrine it is confusing to the point of no return.

So I can imagine you in Anatomy Class being told your brain is located in your toe and you being told that you are not allowed to understand. "Oh yes the toe.... I see now because if it was in the head, the head is much larger than the toe as such it is only just that making up for the toes size that the brain should be in the toe"

And by the way I did not correct Christian Theology I pointed out that you and your missionarie buddies doctrine is not in concordance with it. I studied your theologians you obviously dont because the implications that you express in regards to the Trinity are the absolute opposite of what they say.

Wasalam

This post has been edited by Servidor: Today, 10:37 AM