email
correspondence between David Mohammadi and Brian Lucero:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David
Mohammadi wrote:
I keep reading the arguments
back and forth on the
errancy's of both
the religiouns and i have come to the
conclusion that both
have their own. I think the biggest
discrepancy with
christianity is the whole trinity. If
christianity is the
chosen religioun then why is the core
of it so hard to
grasp? Why would God make a book
uncomprehendable by
mankind (The Trinity) and
expect us to believe
in it?
http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/bepart14.html#ref1411
If you can explain
this to me i will become a christian.
Sincerely, David
Mohammadi
To:David Mohammadi
Sent: Monday,
September 20, 2004 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Islamic
and Christian controversy's
Greetings,
How are you doing
David? Thank you for the email. I'd
be happy to answer
your questions the best I can. But
first, I need to know
what you are asking. Please
formulate a specific question about the
trinity, and then
we can talk. I was also wondering, you said that there
are discrepancies with
both religions - what two religions
are you talking
about? Are you a Muslim? Thanks
again. I look forward for your reply.
in care,
Brian Lucero
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David
Mohammadi wrote:
Hi Brian. Yes I am a muslim, and one of my duties as a
muslim as said
by the prophet mohammad is
to research every religioun and choose
which one i think is the
best. Through my research, I have seen
the
plusses and minuses of the
two main religiouns christianity and islam and
have come to the conclusion
that both have their discrepancies.
Both
have major contradictions and pieces that just don't make
sense but the
overall message of both
religiouns is primarily the same with the
exception of the whole
trinity the biggest problem i have with it is Giving
God and equal in that of
Jesus Christ. To begin, in the old
testament in
Gen 6:3 it states "My
spirit shall never more abide in man, since he too
is flesh." So god can
never become a man because he is made of flesh.
Second, 2 Chron. 6:18 and 1
Kings 8:27 state God (i.e. Jesus) would
never dwell on earth. Third,
although called God by others, Jesus never
directly said he was
God.statements supporting this are as follows:
(a) "Why callest
me good? There is none good but one, that is
God" (Matt.
19:17);
(b) "for my Father
is greater than I" (John 14:28);
(c) "My doctrine
is not mine, but his that sent me" (John 7:16);
(d) "My God, my
God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt.
27:46);
(e) "Who has gone
into heaven, and is on the right hand of God"
(1 Peter 3:22); (See
also: Mark 13:32, 1 cor. 11:3, John 5:19,
20:17, Matt. 26:39 and
many others).
If mankinds only hope for
salvation is to accept that Jesus died for our
sins then why has God made the whole concept impossible to
understand and expect us to
believe it?
To: David Mohammadi
Sent: Friday, September 24,
2004 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: Islamic and
Christian controversy's
David,
You said that as a Muslim you
see pluses and minuses of both religions.
Can you explain to me the
minuses you see in Islam? You have
brought
up three points why Jesus cannot be God in the flesh. I will address each
one:
1."To begin, in the old
testament in Gen 6:3 it states "My spirit shall never
more abide in man, since he
too is flesh." So god can never become a man
because he is made of
flesh. "
Genesis 6:3
And the Lord said, My
spirit shall not always strive with man, for
that he also is flesh: yet his
days shall be an hundred and twenty
years.
It is obvious that this verse
is talking about God giving the authority to man
to live a certain length of
life, which is accomplished by allowing His spirit
to abide in man.
Without God's spirit in you, you will die. He shortens
the length of life by taking
His spirit away. What does this have to
do with
the discussion?
2."Second, 2 Chron. 6:18
and 1 Kings 8:27 state God (i.e. Jesus) would
never dwell on earth. "
1 Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell
on the earth? behold, the heaven and
heaven of heavens cannot
contain thee; how much less this house
that I have builded?
2 Chron. 6:18
But will God in very deed
dwell with men on the earth? behold,
heaven and the heaven of
heavens cannot contain thee; how much
less this house which I have built!
You show that God cannot dwell
on earth by giving the two verses
above. If these verses are the foundation for your
argument, then you
might as well go further and
argue that God can neither dwell in the
heavens, as each verse also
claims. Do you support this conclusion
too?
Hint: Maybe it is making a
point about God's omnipresence.
3."Third, although called
God by others, Jesus never directly said he was
God. "
And then you gave five main
points with verses from the Bible to support
your stance. I can address each point. But we do not even need to go
that far. Since
you are appealing to the Bible, let us see what else the
Bible says about Jesus. In order for your third point to hold any
water,
then you need to explain why
Jesus said what He said. You need to
defend Jesus only being a man
in light of the incredible sayings with which
he described himself:
-I am the light of the world.
-I am the bread of life.
-I am from above, you are from
below.
-Honor me with as much honor
as you give God.
-I have glory with God even
before the world, before you were created.
-I lived even before Abraham.
-I am the shepherd.
-I am the only door.
-No man comes to the Father
but through me.
-I am the Son of God, which
everyone understood to mean equality with
God. (see below)
-I am the truth.
-I do all the judgement.
-I am the alpha and the omega.
-I am the first and the last.
It is obvious that Jesus was
not describing himself as just a man.
How can
he say these things an NOT be
God? Answer these statements first,
then
I will happily answer
yours. Besides all of this, the Old
Testament makes
it clear that the Messiah who
comes to save the world will be the One and
Only God in the flesh. The Jesus isn't making up this theology for
the first
time. And then after Jesus, everybody understood
what He was saying
about Himself - although I did
not quote from any of the apostles yet.
I
just do not see the need. What Jesus says about Himself is abundantly
enough.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Seeking truth,
brian.
p.s. here are most of the verses
where I got my list from:
John 5:17-18
But Jesus answered them,
My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
[18] Therefore the Jews sought
the more to kill him, because he not only
had broken the sabbath, but
said also that God was his Father, making
himself equal with God.
John 5:22-23
For the Father judgeth no
man, but hath committed all judgment unto
the Son: [23] That all men
should honour the Son, even as they honour the
Father. He that honoureth not
the Son honoureth not the Father which
hath sent him.
Isaiah 42:8
I am the Lord: that is my
name: and my glory will I not give to another,
neither my praise to graven
images.)
John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify
thou me with thine own self with the glory
which I had with thee before
the world was.
John 8:56-58
Your father Abraham
rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was
glad. [57] Then said the Jews
unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old,
and hast thou seen Abraham? [58] Jesus said unto them,
Verily, verily, I
say unto you, Before Abraham
was, I am.
John 6:35
And Jesus said unto them,
I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me
shall never hunger; and he
that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:51
I am the living bread
which came down from heaven: if any man eat of
this bread, he shall live for
ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh,
which I will give for the life
of the world.
John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again
unto them, saying, I am the light of the world:
he that followeth me shall not
walk in darkness, but shall have the light of
life.
John 8:23-24
And he said unto them, Ye
are from beneath; I am from above: ye are
of this world; I am not of
this world. [24] I said therefore unto you, that ye
shall die in your sins: for if
ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your
sins.
John 9:35-38
Jesus heard that they had cast
him out; and when he had found him, he
said unto him, Dost thou
believe on the Son of God? [36] He answered
and said, Who is he, Lord,
that I might believe on him? [37] And Jesus
said unto him, Thou hast both
seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
[38] And he said, Lord, I
believe. And he worshipped him.
John 10:7-9
Then said Jesus unto them
again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the
door of the sheep. [8] All that ever came before me are
thieves and
robbers: but the sheep did not
hear them. [9] I am the door: by me if any
man enter in, he shall be
saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 11:25-27
Jesus said unto her, I am
the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth
in me, though he were dead,
yet shall he live: [26] And whosoever liveth
and believeth in me shall
never die. Believest thou this? [27] She saith unto
him, Yea, Lord: I believe that
thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which
should come into the world.
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up
from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am
the way, the truth, and the life: no man
cometh unto the Father, but by
me.
Rev. 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the
last: and, What thou
seest, write in a book, and
send it unto the seven churches which are in
Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna,
and unto Pergamos, and unto
Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and
unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev. 1:17-18
And when I saw him, I fell
at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand
upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the
last: [18] I am he
that liveth, and was dead;
and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen;
and have the keys of hell and
of death.
David
Mohammadi wrote:
Brian,Your arguments are good and
the first two points you answered my questions, but on the 3rd point you did
not address my points but rather gave other verses that supported Jesus was
God. Again by reading those verses i agree with you that yes Jesus would be God
but then the contradictory statements that you did not answer obviously says he
is not, can you answer my questions first?
(a) "Why callest me good?
There is none good but one, that is God" (Matt.
19:17);
(b) "for my Father is
greater than I" (John 14:28);
(c) "My doctrine is not
mine, but his that sent me" (John 7:16);
(d) "My God, my God, why
hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46);
(e) "Who has gone into
heaven, and is on the right hand of God" (1 Peter 3:22);
(See also: Mark 13:32, 1 cor.
11:3, John 5:19, 20:17, Matt. 26:39 and many
others).
Thanks, David
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: David Mohammadi
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 1:32
PM
Subject: Re: Islamic and Christian
controversy's
Hello David,
Sorry that it took me so long to
reply. I have been very busy with
school and other
priorities. I will now try to address your concerns.
You said that "by reading those
verses i agree with you that yes Jesus would be God" but
then showed concern that this just
proves that there is contradiction with these verses and
the ones that you gave that I
"did not answer" which "obviously says he is not". There are
two ways to answer this.
1 First, we can show that the Bible
has fundamentally not changed, and that we can trust
that both sets of verses did truly
come from the mouth of Jesus. Following
through, this
shows that the interpretation that we
place on the verses which causes us to believe that
they are "contradictory",
proves to us that we do not understand what Jesus really is saying,
for surely Jesus would not contradict
Himself.
2. The second way is to actually try
and explain away each "contradiction" in the light of
what His true message was.
Each pathway of explanation is valid
because we can use hard evidence.
Proving that
today's Bible is trustworthy is a
simple science. Proving that Jesus'
words don't contradict
is as simple as first trying to
understand what He is trying to say in the first place, rather than
take His words out of context to use
for our personal goals. If you as a
Muslim do not
understand the message of Jesus as a
whole in the first place, then how do you expect to
undertand how Jesus' words fit in with
everything that He is already saying or trust a
Christian to explain to you that Jesus
really is not contradicting Himself.
These verses that
you give are not a problem for
grounded Christians that we just try to sweep away under
the carpet hoping that one one brings
them up. Rather, they are the verses
that help
accentuate the real message of Jesus,
and of His purpose for really coming here.
If you further desire, then we can
venture down either of the two paths laid out to help
explain why the verses you give are
easily explainable. If you are still
open to hearing more
about how these verses tie in with the
rest, I'd be glad to continue.
In Christ,
Brian Lucero
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David
Mohammadi wrote:
Brian, once again you have danced around
the issue and failed to answer the questions.
You have yet explained to me how
the verses are "easily explainable."
That is all I ask. Dave
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>
To: David Mohammadi <xdave1003@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islamic and Christian controversy's
Date: Thu,
07 Oct 2004 01:06:08 -0500
David,
Here
is a short response for each point you made.
If you would like to talk more specific for each
point
or other points, then I'd be glad. You
asked for explanation for these verses.
Here it is.
Remember,
the way you read the Bible might not be THE way to read the Bible. Words and idioms may have severely diverse
meanings in another language. Enjoy.
(a)
"Why callest me good? There is none good but one, that is God" (Matt.
19:17);
First,
Jesus does not say "I am not good, only God is good." Rather, he asks
the rich man, "Why
do
you call me good?" The purpose behind Jesus' question was to make the rich
man aware of the
implications
of calling Christ good. To call Jesus good is to make him God since only God is
absolutely
good. If the rich man really believed this, he should be willing to abandon
everything,
including
his riches, for Jesus. This is precisely what Jesus goes on to say:
"Jesus
answered, 'If you want TO BE PERFECT, go, sell your possessions and give to the
poor,
and
you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, FOLLOW ME.'" Matthew 19:21
Jesus
demands a devotion that is to be given solely to God. It should be stated that
this request
from
Jesus was made right after the man had indicated his total devotion to the
Mosaic Law. For
Jesus
to then come back and demand that the man should abandon all he has and follow
him is
either
blasphemous, or affirms that Jesus believed that he was God. That Christ did in
fact believe
he
was absolutely good, and therefore God, can be seen from the following statements
of Jesus:
"I
am the GOOD Shepherd. The good shepherd lays his life down for the sheep... I
am the GOOD
Shepherd.
I know my own and my own know me." John 10:11, 14
Not
only is Jesus affirming his absolute goodness, but also applies a title of Yahweh
God to
himself:
"Yahweh
is my Shepherd, I shall not want." Psalm 23:1
"Give
ear, O Shepherd of Israel, you who lead Joseph like a flock!" Psalm 80:1
NRSV
Jesus
also claims to be absolutely sinless, having no unrighteousness within him
whatsoever:
"Those
who speak on their own seek their own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of
him who
sent
him is true, and there is nothing false in him." John 7:18
"And
the one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what
is pleasing to him." John 8:29
"Which
of you convicts me of sin? ..." John 8:46
No
one was able to point to a single sin that Jesus committed. For Jesus to be
absolutely good
strongly
argues the case that he is God. Note the following syllogism:
Only
God is absolutely good
Jesus
is absolutely good
Therefore,
Jesus is God.
(http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Naik/concept.htm)
(b)
"for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28);
When
understanding the mission of Jesus we can see the exact purpose for stating
this. Jesus
came
to be an example to lead people TO God.
If Jesus acted as God did on this earth (used His
powers
to satisfy His own desires and needs (in a mortal body) , ie. turning stone
into bread in
matt.
4, not letting them kill him when He said He could call on 4 legions of angels)
then He would not be pointing TO God, but to a mortal body. God's design was to have a perfect prophet
(since no other prophet would suffice, He had to do it Himself) to point to a
Holy God.
The
mission of the Messiah is made clear all throughout the Old Testament in
prophesy, but
keeping
clear also that the Messiah would be the very God on earth. Since no other person can
pay
for me and my friends' drinks at the restaurant, I need to pay for it. Since no other perfect
sacrifice
could satisfy the dues needed to make humanity holy in God's sight, God had to
Himself
pay
for it in the form of Jesus the perfect Lamb.
The payer, the lamb, by necesity,
is lesser than
the
person to whom the payment is due. But
at the same time, if the lamb is God,
then the lamb,
while
physically is lesser, is technically equal.
If I gave an order to my inferior officer on
paper through a carrier, the message would be FROM
me
and not me itself. Even though the message
carries the exact same weight as if I declared it in
person. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead,
and inferior to the Father as touching His
Manhood
are two different things. That is why
Jesus' other statements make sense (the ones
that
I gave to show His obvious divinity) in orchestra with these.
(c)
"My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me" (John 7:16);
It
was Jesus' mission to point to God, as every prophet's is, whether perfect or
not. This saying is
actually
very strong evidence for reconciling Jesus being God without
contradiction. Many
people
attack the trinity saying that there are three separate persons doing three
different jobs.
Jesus
is saying the opposite. "We three
are one. I cannot do the work on my
own, for I am not
separate. My doctrine is not mine alone, but the
Father's and the Holy Spirit's too, for we are all
the
same in one." If Jesus were to
declare that His message was His own, then He would actually
be
giving evidence that He is not one in the same as the Father, but
different. But this is not so.
Jesus
made this clear. He is dependent on the
Father and Holy Spirit, just as both those two are
on
the others, for they are one. This
verse therefore is great evidence of
the trinity.
Please
read the context of a very similar verse: "the Son can do nothing on his
own...". You will
see
what Jesus is trying to emphasize here.
He commands for Himself as much honor as you
give
God.
John
5:19-23
"Jesus
said to them, 'Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but
only what he
sees
the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, THE SON DOES LIKEWISE. The
Father
loves
the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing; and he will show him
greater works than these, so that you will be astonished. Indeed, just as the
Father raises the dead and gives them life, SO ALSO THE SON GIVES LIFE TO
WHOMEVER HE WISHES. The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the
Son, SO THAT ALL MAY HONOR THE SON JUST AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. Anyone who
does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."
(d)
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46);
This
shows the role that Jesus needed to play to fulfill the whole role of being the
sacrifice, of
being
the substitute human to bear sin in our place.
Because sin is what separates us from God,
and
because Jesus willfully took our place as a sacrifice for our sin, He had to go
through the
process
of judgment. His mortal body was
forsaken by God. His mortal body bore
the
punishment
of our sin. Of course God cannot
forsake His spirit - that would not make sense, for
He
is God. But to understand the
consequence of sin is to understand that Jesus' body was
subject
to the very thing that was promised to sinners.
Jesus
is saying exactly what has been prophesied of the Messiah in the Old
Testament. This
quote
comes particularly from Psalm 22, which proclaims with it a handful of other
prophecies and characteristics that the Messiah would fulfill - it is basically
a Messiah chapter. See this was the
plan of God from the beginning. What we
see happen in Jesus' life is EXPECTED, not surprising. If Jesus was not forsaken, then we would
question His position as the substitutory lamb of God. Read another prophecy about what Jesus would
go through. It was the plan.
Isaiah
53:10-12
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he
hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he
shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord
shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and
shall be satisfied: by his
knowledge
shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
[12]
Therefore
will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with
the strong;
because
he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the
transgressors;
and
he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
(e)
"Who has gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God" (1 Peter 3:22); (See also:
Mark 13:32, 1 cor. 11:3, John 5:19, 20:17, Matt. 26:39 and many others).
This
is actually great evidence that Jesus really is God. I will not go into too much here. But you
can
do some research on what significance the "right hand of God"
held. It is not just a location
in
heaven as Muslims would immediately jump to.
It stands for the power of God to save, the
avenue
of salvation, the characteristics of God - His holiness, etc., his method of
creation, and
much
more. A few introductory verses may
help you understand why this passage is significant
to
mean that Jesus is God.
Psalm
17:7
Shew thy marvellous lovingkindness, O thou
that savest by thy right hand them which put their
trust
in thee from those that rise up against them.
Psalm
48:10
According to thy name, O God, so is thy
praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full
of
righteousness.
Psalm
98:1
A
Psalm.
O sing unto the Lord a new song; for he
hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his
holy
arm, hath gotten him the victory.
Psalm
110:1
A Psalm of David.
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my
right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Isaiah
48:13
Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of
the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the
heavens:
when I call unto them, they stand up together.
To: David Mohammadi <xdave1003@hotmail.com>
Subject:
david curious of conversation
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:20:59 -0600
Greetings
David.
It
has been a long while since we've talked.
I was just wondering how
you
are doing, in life and also with your spiritual research. I
remember
that we last were talking about certian sayings of Jesus and
how
Christians might reconcile these with his other sayings of obviously
claiming
divinity. I responded to each verse in
your list and was
waiting
for a response. Did any of my responsed make sense? Are there
any
other questions you might have about what Christians believe? I
hope
all is well and look foward from hearing from you.
In
Peace and sincerity,
Brian
Lucero
David
Mohammadi wrote:
Hi
Brian,
Sorry
i haven't been able to get back to you.
You answered my questions and
did
a very good job defending the bible. My
quest for answers has lead me
to
too much questioning that has taken a toll on me mentally making me a bit
depressed.
Ultimately it comes down to faith, I believe in God. I believe
both
in islam and christianity. I would have
a much easier time believing
Jesus
is God if it wasn't for Islam. If the
bible is fully true, then Islam
cannot
be a religioun of God and their is too much evidence to say
otherwise.
Sincerely,
Dave
