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Subject:              Re: david curious of conversation

       Date:             Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:10:32 -0700

      From:              "David Mohammadi" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

        To:              "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3

 

 

 

 

Brian, i have recovered and ready to debate again.  I have been reading the

bible vigorously lately and have found some interesting points.  First of

all, the bible predicts of the prophet mohammad, tell me what you think of

this verse:

 

Song of solomon 5:16

 

His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely.  this is me beloved,

and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

 

The phrase "he is altogether lovely" reads in Hebrew as "he is Mahamaddim."

 

 The hebrew word used for this is Mahamaddim written in the bible in its

original language.  The ending letters "im" is a plural of respect, majesty

and grandeur, jus as in Elohim "the god".

 

So in other words

His mouth is most sweet: yea, Mohammad.  this is me beloved, and this is my

friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

 

Also,

Deuteronomy 18:18 "I will raise for them a Prophet like you (Moses) from

among their  brethren and will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak

unto them, all that I  command him".

 

Let me make some comments about the above: Christians believe that this is a

reference   to Jesus peace be upon him. One important word here is

"Prophet". Christians believe   Jesus is the son of God not a prophet of

God. Another important word is "brethren". If it   were Jesus the word would

have been "children" because Jesus peace be upon him came   from the

children of Isaac. Since Ismaaeel peace be upon him was the brother of Isaac

peace be upon him, the reference is therefore to the children of Prophet

Ismaaeel peace be   upon him who will be brethren to the children of Isaac

peace be upon him. Again the only   Prophet from the brethren of the Jews

and the Christians was Prophet Muhammad peace   and blessings of God be upon

him.

 

The next important phrase is "Like you ( Moses)". Even a cursory comparison

will show   us that Jesus peace be upon him was very unlike Prophet Moses

peace be upon him.   Prophet Moses' birth was natural whereas the birth of

Jesus was miraculous without a   father, to a virgin, peace be upon her.

Prophet Moses married and had children, Jesus did   not marry and of course

did not have any children. The ministry of Jesus peace be upon

him lasted three years and did not see the laws of God establish in his

time. Prophet   Moses peace be upon him, preached the law of God for many

decades and saw in his time,   the law of God established. Comparing Prophet

Moses peace be upon him, with Prophet   Muhammad peace and blessings of God

be upon him, brings out an amazing similarity.   Muhammad's birth was

natural, he was married and had children; preached the law of God

for 23 years and saw in his own time God's Law established in his land.

 

The phrase: "I will put My words in his mouth", takes on great significance

because   Prophet Muhammad peace and blessings of God be upon him, was

unlettered; he did not   know how to read or write. Normally God would put

the message in the Prophet's mind. In   this case attention is drawn towards

"words" being put into the "mouth". Prophet   Muhammad's sayings as well as

eye witness accounts describe his receiving the verses of

the Holy Quraan, and his tongue moving with the words being put in his

mouth.

 

And finally,

 

Turning to the New Testament, let us look at John 14: 15-16. It says: "14-

If you love Me,

keep My commandments. 16- And I will pray the Father, and He will give you

another

"comforter" (Helper in other versions), that he may abide with you forever".

Also John

15: 26-27, John 16: 5-8 and John 16 12-14.

 

Jesus peace be upon him, spoke the Gospel in his native language which is

Aramaic. The   earliest translations were in Greek. It is very very

interesting that the Greek word which   was eventually translated into

English as "Comforter" (Helper) is "Parqaleeta" and the   meaning of this

word is "one whom people praise exceedingly". It does not mean "the   Holy

Ghost" which is what we are told the so called "Comforter" means. I do not

have the

slightest clue as to how this meaning was given to the word Parqaleeta. What

is even more   fascinating is the fact that the name Muhammad has exactly

the same meaning as   Parqaleeta "one whom people praise exceedingly"! One

of my friends wrote very

beautifully in his book about the meaning of the word Muhammad: 'The most

praised one.   He is praised upon earth and in the heavens, from the

beginning to the end, by men jinn   and angels, rocks and trees and animals,

by prophets before him since Adam, by saints   until Doomsday. As all of

this cannot give him due praise, we beg God to praise him. He is   the only

One who truly knows the value and the mystery of His Muhammad and He is the

only One who can truly praise him'. The celestial name of  Prophet Muhammad

peace and

blessings of God be upon him is Ahmad. I will quote from the Holy Quraan

about the   connection of  Prophet Muhammad with the Bible as follows:

 

Chapter 61

 

     5: "And remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do ye vex

and   insult me though ye know that I am the apostle of Allaah (sent) to

you?" Then   when they went wrong Allaah let their hearts go wrong: for

Allaah guides not  those who are rebellious transgressors.

   6: And remember Jesus the son of Mary said: "O Children of Israel! I am

the   Prophet of Allaah (sent) to you confirming the Law (which came) before

me and    giving glad Tidings of a Prophet to come after me, whose name

shall be   Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said "This

is   evident sorcery!"

 

 

From: "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

To: "David Mohammadi" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:04 PM

Subject: Re: david curious of conversation

 

 

Dadid,

 

I am pleased to hear from you again.   I was hoping that we would come to

Speak to each other again.  Cause I have really enjoyed learning with you about

New things regarding different issues from different perspective of both Islam

And Christianity.

 

Hear is your first mistake though:  "brian i am ready to DEBATE again".

David, I love the fervor, it IS what is needed.  We all need the desire to seek

After truth in order for us to find it.   However, there is a way to go about it

That will help us to recieve it quicker.  Trying to debate is not one of those

ways.

But I know that you mean not to debate in a bad sense, but that you just

want to conversate and get my perspective of things.  I just want us to be careful

that our hearts are right in this conversation.  For that is one of the most

important things when learning and discussing truth.   I am open to new

things that contradict my current understanding.  But are you?  Are you prepared

to give up what you beleive in light of new evidence that perhaps might

contradict your current beliefs?  Is it worth enough to you?  Alright, then let us

begin.

 

Before we talk particularly about each of thes prophecies, I want to help

you in your research so we can have a balanced talk.   You said that you have

been reading the Bible vigorously.  Awesome.   I read the Qur'an with vigor as

well.  That is what we need.  BOTH angles, to get an EQUAL understanding of ALL

the perspectives of an issue.   Before we start, I want you to read these

articles below with patience and VERY close attention to detail (i mean go slow and

relfect on each point, hopefully to memorize the points - not to believe

in them, but to understand them so that you would be able to regurgitate them

for the opposing side).   This will help you to get both sides (even if you

read them before, do this now again, so I can be sure that I won't have to

repeat myself in my exegesis of these verses - I assure you, it will be

beneficial).  I am NOT saying that these articles are perfect or totally accurate.  By

far I am not.  They are just another perpective that helps us to understand what

all the angles are.  And I am NOT saying that they are going to convince you -

of a surety they probably wont.  But it IS essential in our discussion that I

know that you have read and understood what I think is important to read.   The

following articles you should read.  Then when you are done making notes

on them, and memorizing the key points, report back and we will start

discussing the specific verses that you brought up in question:

 

1.  <http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/muhammad.html>  this one

will address the Dueteronomy 18 prophecy and the comforter of the new testament

prophecy.

 

2.  <http://www.answering-islam.org/BibleCom/songs5-16.html> this one

referes to Song of Solomon 5:16 prophecy.

 

Try to get back to me within a few days.  I look forward to talking with

you on this issue.   Again, it is nice to hear from you.

 

With respect and care, and in the love of the Christ,

Brian Lucero

 

 

Subject:

            Re: david curious of conversation

       Date:

            Sat, 6 Aug 2005 21:32:45 -0700

      From:

            "David Mohammadi" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

        To:

            "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5

 

 

 

 

Brian, the arguments made to support that this person is not mohammad is

solid, but it they also do not completely disprove it is not mohammad.  It

is all a matter of interpretation.. The text claims there cannot be any

other interpretation of the text, but there is always an interpretation that

can be different.  In response I send you this.

 

In response to the song of solomon.  Even though it may not be in the gospel

or the torah, it is still mentioned in the bible.  Whether it's a love song

or not, it just interesting to me where the word fell into place.  I'm not

looking at the obvious context which is a love song but beyond the obvious.

Common noun or not it is still the word mahammadim. The fact that it falls

after "his mouth is most sweet" which is what mohammads mouth was from the

beatiful poem he was dictating (Verses of the Koran) and then it follows it

up by this is my beloved, and this is my friend.  I just find it interesting

that it happens to appear exactly where it does.

 

One more question for you Brian.  What do christians believe Islam is?  If

not the word of God then of who?

 

 

Subject:             Re: david curious of conversation

       Date:            Sun, 07 Aug 2005 04:21:35 -0500

      From:            brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

        To:            David Mohammadi <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6

 

 

 

 

David,

 

Thanks for reading the material that I sent you.  I hope that you got something out of it.  Even if you didn't completely agree with all of

the conclusions, it seems that you could still learn from some of the facts brought up.   That is why I also like to read other peoples'

views, so I can understand where they are coming from and with what evidence they make their claim to truth.

 

For the prophecies in issue, you said that 1."the arguments made to support that this person is not mohammad is solid, but it they also

do not completely disprove it is not mohammad".  If this is what progress we have thus made, it is great.  You went from completely

believing 1."it IS mohammed" to 2."it might only be mohammad, but not for sure".  I would like to continue our talks on this subject,

before we move on to another, to see if I can convince you that 3."it is totally and assuredly NOT mohammad".  Put that on pause for

a moment.

 

For even if point (2.) is what we finally come away with after researching all possible evidences, it is a powerful conclusion nontheless

that it is NOT a prophecy about Mohammed.  For the prophecies about the coming Messiah, are so clear that they fall into evidence

category (1.), namely that "they ARE FOR SURE talking about the Messiah, and no one can dismiss that".  So the question

becomes:  if the prophecies about the Messiah, Jesus Christ, are SO clear as to not be mistaken, and that is how God works when

he uses the practice of prophetic predictions of persons, then WHY is He NOT being SO clear when prophecying about

Mohammad (but only using category 2).  We can see from the Bible that God's signature method to prophecy about important

coming figures is to use category (1).   Then by the Muslims trying to argue that Mohammad is prophecied, using category (2) logic,

they are self-inauthenticating their prophecied figure.  We can fully be sure that God works this way (category 1), so to not work this

way is to NOT BE GOD.  And so since God does not work this way, then it becomes simple: "It is certainly NOT talking about

Mohammad".  So in the above paragraph, we can prove by mere logic that the supposed prophecies of Mohammad fall under

category (3).

 

But we don't have to even resort to that logic.  Let me explain why it is simple to see that these prophecies are clear to NOT be

speaking about Mohammad just by using what they say.

 

Duet. Prophecy:

Deuteronomy 18:18 "I will raise for them a Prophet like you (Moses) from among their brethren and will put My words in his mouth,

and he shall speak unto them, all that I  command him".

 

I agree with you that Christians making a list of similarities between Jesus and Moses just as long as the list that Muslims make

between Mohammad and Moses is just puting one person's word against the other's.  It is NOT conclusive evidence to rule out the

possibility of Mohammad still being the fulfillment of that prophecy.  That is why I don't think that John Gilchrist in his article made

that list for that reason.  Rather, he made that list to show Muslims that lists are subject, that anyone can make lists like that.  He

didn't make the list to be evidence for the Christian argument, rather just to show Muslims how silly they are in trying to create a list

that is so subjective to support their argument that "Mohammas is FOR SURE the fulfillment".  It can only go so far as to prove that

"Mohammad MIGHT be the fulfilliment".

 

But Gilchrist goes on to make solid definitive blows to the Muslim argument.  In their prophecy it does say "a Prophet like you

(Moses)".  The way to get anything out of this prophecy is NOT to make some random list of ALL the possible similarities and find

out who has the most, as the Muslims try.  But it is to ask the context of the quote, "What ways SHOULD the prophet be like

Moses, according to this prophecy, so we can KNOW FOR SURE (as this is God's way of doing things)?"  Let us pull from a text in

the same book a few chapters later:

 

Deut. 34:10-12

    "Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom (1.)the Lord knew face to face, who (2.)did all those miraculous

signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do in Egypt - to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. (still 2.) For no one has

ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel."

 

What are the two criteria for being "like unto Moses" according to God?   It is not to make long random lists.   It is to adhere to what

the text gives as a test.  Let us apply the two questions of this test to both of our supposed prophets.

 

Test 1.  "know the Lord face to face" (or speak to him face to face).  The Bible says that Moses did this, and the Qur'an ALSO

says Moses did this:

 

"The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young

aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent." Exodus 33:11 (Bible).

 

We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac,

Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. Of some messengers We have

already told thee the story; of others We have not;- and to Moses Allah spoke direct;- S. 4:163-164 (Qur'an).

 

But what about Mohammed?  Did he fulfill this test?  Qur'an says no, for it never records it happening.  And surely if Mohammad

wants to claim to be the prophet "prophecies in their own scriptures" he would surely give the evidence that would make him pass the

test.   So the Qur'an is silent.   And the Hadith is more clear:

 

Narrated Masruq:

'Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar, for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103)

And if anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen the unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: "None has the knowledge of the Unseen but

Allah." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 477)

 

Narrated Masruq:

I said to 'Aisha, "O Mother! Did Prophet Muhammad see his Lord?" Aisha said, "What you have said makes my hair stand on end!

Know that if somebody tells you one of the following three things, he is a liar: Whoever tells you that Muhammad saw his Lord, is a

liar." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 378)

 

What about Jesus?

 

John 6:46

    Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 1:18

    No man hath seen God at any time;(save) the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

So Muhammad failed the test, yet Jesus fulfilled it.

 

Test 2.  "do miracle as great as moses did them".  Jesus is famous for not only spreading the water and walking through it like

Moses, but being able to walk on TOP OF the water with no need of spreading it, and being able to calm whole storms at his

command.  He healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out demons, brought the exact word of God, lived a sinless life, knew the

thoughts and intents of the hearts of people around him, knowing all their futures, etc.

 

John 6:2

    And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.

John 6:26

    Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat

of the loaves, and were filled.

John 7:31

    And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath

done?

John 21:25

    And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world

itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

 

But the Qur'an says that Mohammed did none of this, he did no "miracles like Moses".  It actually blatantly says that he did not signs

like Moses:

 

But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, LIKE THOSE WHICH

WERE SENT TO MOSES?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say: "Two kinds of

sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say: "For us, we reject all (such things)!" S. 28:48

 

They say: "Why is not a Sign sent down to him from his Lord!" Say: "Allah hath certainly power to send down a Sign: but most of

them understand not." S. 6:37

 

For test (2) Muhammad fails and Jesus fulfills.  According to "being like unto Moses", in both tests, as the context requires, given

from God, Jesus is the fulfillment and Muhammad has NO POSSIBILITY of being the fulfillment.

 

"Among their brethren":

 

Deuteronomy 18:18 "I will raise for them a Prophet like you (Moses) from among their brethren and will put My words in his mouth,

and he shall speak unto them, all that I  command him".

 

But what about "among their brethren.  We already know that Muhammad doesn't fulfill being "like unto Moses" according to the

Biblical criteria, but what about the first part of the verse?  Again, let us not impose a subjective definition upon the text as Muslims

do to extract whatever interpretation they desire.  Let us go the context and see how the Bible defines "among their brethren".

 

The term "brethren" when read in context can only refer to the twelve tribes of Israel as the opening verses of the beginning of the

SAME book and chapter show:

Deuteronomy 18:1-2

"The Levitical priests, that is, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel ... They shall have no inheritance

among their brethren."

 

Once more, in chapter 17:14-15 the Israelites are told to put one of their "brethren" as king over them, never a foreigner. The fact is

that Israel at no time in their history have ever put an Ishmaelite "brother" as king but always an Israelite, i.e. Saul, David. This

demonstrates that in these particular contexts "brethren" does not refer to any nation outside of the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

Brethren can only mean within the decendents of Issac, the twelve tribes were stemed from 12 brothers.  So when taling about the

brethren of the tribe of Levi, it means any of the other 11 tribes.  It is clear what only "brethren" can mean according to the text.  It is

clear that Muhammad certainly falls into the category of "might not be" and even further he falls into the category of "CERTAINLY

NOT".

 

The same logic applies to the prophecy in Song of Solomon as well.  If you really want me to write about that, I'd be happy to.  But

I'm sure by reading the article again, you will come up with the same CERTAIN conclusions as I have, the Muhammad "certainly

CANNOT fulfill" them.

 

I hope this helps.  Tell me again what topic you would like to move onto next.

 

In deepest care and respect, in the Love of Christ,

Brian Lucero

 

 

 

Subject:             Re: david curious of conversation

       Date:            Sun, 7 Aug 2005 04:38:58 -0700

      From:            "David Mohammadi" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

        To:            "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7

 

 

 

 

Brian, In response to the latter of Deutoronomy let's look at this passage.

 

Let's look at Deutoronomy 33:2

 

     Moses preached that God will send a messenger that all Mankind should follow to be saved from the Hell fire. The Old

Testament was and still is (after repetitive changes over its original text) full of extracts meaning that, but some of the Jews tried hard

to conceal this truth by permanently changing the holly text of the Torah. The Holly Qur'an tells us that both Holly apostles,Moses

and Jesus, were paving the way to the great event which was the coming of the "Comforter" whose name is "Ahmed". The gospel

of Moses was true:

 

     And he (Moses) said, the lord came from Seir unto them,he shined forthfrom mount Paran (that is in Arabia)

     and he (Mohammad) came with ten thousand saints. From his right hand went a fiery law for them.

 

The two Points i want to look at Are:

 

1. mount Paran

 

2. .....he came with ten thousand saints.........

 

The first point

 

"THE LORD CAME FROM SINAI, AND ROSE FROM SEIR UNTO THEM ; HE SHINED FORTH FROM

MOUNT PARAN..."

 

According to traditional Biblical atlases, Sinai, Seir and Paran are placed in the Sinai Peninsula. This is incorrect for obvious reasons,

this verse makes mention of three distinct entities. It does not make sense for someone to come from one area, rise from that same

area, and shine from that very same area. Its needless repetition and self-contradictory. Placing it in a more modern understanding,

Does it make sense for someone to say

"I came out of California, then went to Los Angeles, to make an appearance in San Francisco"

I know its confusing, but to scholars (all Christian), these places have been placed in their proper geographical landscape.

SEIR if you look at a map today, it is the Arabic ASIR (a region in western Saudi Arabia). Kamal Salibi, a Lebanese Christian

scholar in his book

"The Bible came from Arabia" says in regards to Seir on page 204

"..The name Asir ('sr, or 'syr') denotes the tribal highlands around Abha.. The name appers to be a survival, by metathesis of the

Biblical 'Seir', or 'Mount Seir'"

and it became applied (although the author does not indicate when) to the administrated (south of Makkah) Western borderland.

While the Hejaz became the administrated north of Makkah.

Mount Paran, these are the mountain or series of mountains, that exist just east of Makkah.

In Arabic, it's pronounced F'aran. This is only a difference of linguistcs; as the Jews pronounced Palestine with a 'P'. We pronounce it

as Philistine, the beginning having an 'F' vocal sound. In the Douay (Catholic) version, the Deuteronomy 33:2 verse  is written as

 

"..he hath appeared from mount Pharan.."

 

Which leans more towards the Arabic/Aramaic way of pronouncing it.

The mention of Paran is significant, as it rules out any Jewish or Christian claim to this verse, unless they want to contend that their

Prophets dwellings where in Arabia, especially on the outskirts of Makkah. Who else supports this fact?, the Book of Genesis does.

Remember the story when Hagar and her son Ishmael are banished to a wilderness. Where was this wilderness?

 

And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

Genesis 21:21

 

And Arab and Islamic history and tradition shows that Ishmael dwelt in the Western Arabia (particularly around the area of Makkah),

and him and his father built the Kaaba. And in due time, the descendants dwelt in this region, and the Prophet Muhammed (PBUH)

sprang also from the very same region. It would be ludicrous to say that the Arabs dwelt in the Sinai peninsula, especially when their

is no Biblical or anthropological support for this notion. And who would know their own origins better, the Jews of Canaan, or the

Arabs themselves. I don't think the Hebrews were in the game of recording the traditions and wars, trades etc of the Arabian people.

 

What we have established here is that this verse is to take place in this specific region of the Middle east; Seir and Paran which is in

Western Arabia. Not in the Sinai peninsula.

 

Second Point

 

This verse is very explicit in terms of historical context and geography as you can see. Now if you know your Islamic history, you'll

remember that the Prophet of Islam's triumphant march onto Makka in 630 C.E. In which he smashed the idols that adorned the

Kaaba. On this event, he was accompanied by 10,000 sahabas (companians). All Islamic sources seem to be unanimous on this

number. Biblical history does not have any recording of 10,000 persons of any physical/historical event in Paran and Seir.

 

(http://jamaat.net/letters/deut33.html)

 

     History had shown that the prophecy had come true. Many Jews followed him when he came. But some others refused him

because he was not of their tribes. He was not from the sons of Israel (Jacob) and they deeply believe in the fact that prophets should

only be from one of their twelve tribes. Mohammad was one of their larger family because his grand grand father was Ishmael son of

Abraham (Ibraheem). All in all, the hard-hearted Jews never accepted a prophet although those of their blood. They killed many of

them and chased away many other ones. They even tried to falsify the History by fabricating stories on their Holly Prophets for

example Joseph(pbuh) and saint Mary to name only two. The most dangerous one is when they tried to betray Jesus.

 

 

Subject:

            Re: david curious of conversation

       Date:

            Sun, 07 Aug 2005 12:52:39 -0500

      From:

            brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

        To:

            David Mohammadi <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8

 

 

 

 

David,

 

Like I said, let us take one scripture at a time and see if your arguments hold up under scrutiny.  This is the phenomena that I see

occuring with all muslims that I talk to - that can't just stay in one spot and look deepER into the text.  Let us make a conclusion on

Deut. 18:18 before we move on.  I will be more than happy to look at more texts.  I've been studying all the passages that Muslims

use to make Muhammad look like the coming prophet for a few years now.  Can we be patient though?  Don't try to take a totally

different prophecy from somewhere else in the Bible that is totally unrelated and then try to apply it to Deut. 18:18.   Let us use the

criterion given from THAT text, and then move on.

 

So what do you say about Duet. 18:18, after I gave my email response?  Either answer the evidence that I put forth or admit that

Muhammad CANNOT be the prophet being spoken about as I tried to show.  But don't side step the issue and ignore what I have

said by moving to other texts to back up your beliefs about Muhammad.  For even if your other texts (Deut. 32, etc) ARE talking

about Muhammad, that does not make it right to attribute the prophecy of Deut. 18:18 to Muhammad.  They are independent

instances.  Over and again in the Bible the same author of a book will make many prophecies, but each of them pertaining to a

different subject or person.  So EVEN IF Deut. 32  (which I am very positive it is not - I will give evidence later) is talking about

Muhammad, that does not mean that Deut 18 is.  Don't fall into the trap of most Muslims of ignoring the evidence here, and then

trying to impose evidence from somewhere else onto the current issue at hand.  That is bad scholarship and would never stand up in

court.

 

So let's conclude Deut 18 after giving all the evidence.  What is your verdict on THAT prophecy?

 

With respect and care in Christ,

Brian Lucero

 

Subject:

            Re: david curious of conversation

       Date:

            Sun, 7 Aug 2005 12:24:25 -0700

      From:

            "David Mohammadi" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

        To:

            "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9

 

 

 

 

Brian, you have falsely accused me of jumping around the issue, for it was you who said to look at the rest of the verses in the

passage (Deuteronomy 34) to see the person in which it applies to.  When I look at the other prophecies made throughout the passage

you accuse me of dancing around the issue.  This is very hipocratic for you to say as you clearly do it yourself.  If these are separate

issues in which you claim then your "two tests" do not apply because that is over in Deut 34. You have not disproved that Deuteronomy

18 does not apply to Mohammad for his brethren the ishmaelities are still of the isrealities, but also that it can apply to Jesus as well in

which i agree.  Deutoronomy 33 again speaks of who this person is, so go over what I sent you and convince me that this person is jesus

and not mohammad.  The cliche by which your source keeps going by is "It clearly states....." Nothing is clear to me, as it keeps making

these blind assumptions.

 

Subject:

            Re: david curious of conversation

       Date:

            Sun, 07 Aug 2005 15:22:26 -0500

      From:

            brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

        To:

            David Mohammadi <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10

 

 

 

 

David,

 

I guess I am not making myself clear.  Let me try again.   I am using another TEXT (deut.34), but I am NOT using another

PROPHECY (deut.32).  The reason that you cannot use this other prophecy (due.32) is because it is totally independent of the first

prophecy (prophecies in the Bible are usually independent of each other).  The text that I use (deut. 34) is not a seperate prophecy

from deut. 18.  Rather it is just a normal similar text that helps us understand what the author previously was talking about.  The only

reason that we can use Deut. 34 is because it defines the phrase "like Moses" that is used in Deut.18.

Deuteronomy 18:18 "I will raise for them a Prophet like you (Moses) from among their brethren and will put My words in his

mouth, and he shall speak unto them, all that I  command him".

Deut. 34:10-12

    "Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, [DEFINITON>>: ]whom (1.)the Lord knew face to face, who (2.)did all

those miraculous signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do in Egypt - to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. (still

2.) For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel."

See the Muslims, to support their argument that Muhammad is "like Moses", can only do it by changing the defined use of the phrase

"like Moses" to mean something other than what the text allows.

 

Concerning the "brethren" issue, you say  "You have not disproved that Deuteronomy 18 does not apply to Mohammad for his brethren

the ishmaelities are still of the isrealities, but also that it can apply to Jesus as well in which i agree. "  I'm still curious about what you are

trying to say here.  "his brethren the ishmaelites are still of the isrealites" ???    Again we are allowed to go to a different text that has the

same wordings, to help us DEFINE the word "brethren".  If God is going to give a prophecy, he is going to make clear to the people he is

giving it to what the terms and definitions of that prophecy are.  That is all we are doing.  We are NOT going to a seperate, independent

prophecy that is totally non-similar.  Let us see how the SAME chapter defines brethren.  It is NOT the Ishmaelites as you propose.  

Deut. 17 and 18 define "brethren" as "the other 11 tribes of Israel besides the Levites".   Period.

We know that Muhammad was from the line of Ishmael, meaning outside of the "other 11 tribes of Israel".  However, Jesus was a

descendent of the tribe of Judah, one of the "other 11 tribes of Israel".

 

I hope you do not think that I am hypocritical anymore and that I am being more clear than before.  Tell me if I can explain further.

 

Best of wishes.

Brian Lucero

 

Subject:

            Re: david curious of conversation

       Date:

            Sun, 7 Aug 2005 19:40:06 -0700

      From:

            "David Mohammadi" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

        To:

            "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11

 

 

 

 

Brian, my question for you is this in response to your 2 definitions.

 

According to the bible Jesus (pbuh) knew god face to face because he himself was God.  We have a problem here because not only

Muslims but Jews also don't believe Jesus (pbuh)was God or ever spoke to him face to face. Even the bible itself says.

 

 

Exodus 33:20 (King James Version)

 

   20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.  If jesus (pbuh) were infact God no man saw

him and lived.

 

 

2. As for Miracles.  Miracles are relevant to their given times.  One of Moses' miracles was turning his cane into a snake.  During this

time, magic was big in Egypt so the way Moses' cane turned into a snake and ate all the other snakes pertained to its time. Remember, it

is what God wants a miracle to be in order to convince the people.  God did not need to send Mohammad (pbuh) hundreds of miracles

because the Arabs weren't as stubborn and in denial like the Jews were.  Also, during this time, Poetry was the measure

of someones hierarchy at the time.  The greater the poet was, the more people respected and were in aww of them.  Mohammad, who

was a non educated man who could neither read or write was reciting these beatiful verses that no poet at the time could even come close

to matching. It is said in the Koran:

 

 

"If you are in doubt of what We have sent down to Our worshipper (Prophet Muhammad), produce a chapter comparable to it. Call upon

your helpers, other than Allah, to assist you, if you are true. But if you fail, as you are sure to fail, then guard yourselves against the Fire

whose fuel is people and stones prepared for the unbelievers." Koran Chapter 2 verses 23:24

 

Ironically enough, no man was able to.

 

Secondly while other prophets miracles disappeared with them when they died, Mohammads (pbuh) miracle the Koran still exists with us

till this day.

 

Brian,

 

May peace and blessing be upon you.

 

Dave

 

Subject:

            Re: david curious of conversation

       Date:

            Mon, 08 Aug 2005 01:28:52 -0500

      From:

            brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

        To:

            David Mohammadi <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12

 

 

 

 

David,

 

In your response you said that Jesus only saw God face to face because he was God and you then attempted to show again why this

"trinity thing" does not work out.  You also respond to the miracles criteria by using logic that Muhammad's sign to the people for "his

era" was beautiful and amazing literature.  But take note again:  these criteria are not MY made up criteria.  They are the criteria that

the PROPHECY asks for.  We can't just throw them out and decide when to use or not use them.  If you are going to take a

prophecy from the Bible, then you'd better use the criteria that that prophecy gives for how to test a self-proclaimed prophet.  The

trinity issue, the corruption of the Bible, and contradictions are all seperate issues that I would be glad to talk about.  But let us stick

to proper prophetic testing logic.

 

So what do you want to know?  I have showed, assuming the Bible has not been corrupted, that the trinity issue is well supported

and understood, and that contradictions have been sufficiently answered, that the prophecy in case CANNOT be fulfilled by

Muhammad according to the adopted criteria.  So you accept then that, with these assumptions, the evidence is fully against

Muhammad.  Do you want to now put under scrutiny the validity of the this criteria, via corruption, contradiction, trinity, and try to

use a different avenue to disprove the conclusion?  Let us begin then!  This just goes to show that using the accepted avenue, Muslims

have failed, so they have to resort to these other avenues.

 

1.  Trinity - we have already talkd about this, and you agreed that the logic I gave was sound.  We can open it up though in light of

this text from Exodus.  Is this the avenue down which you would like us to venure?

2. Contradiction - this avenue is also very big, but very important to understand the arguments.  The exodus passage that you quoted

would also be an example of which to answer in this category.

3. Corruption - obviously if the Bible were corrupted, there would be contradictions, and there would be false theologies that might

not make sense (i.e. in your eyes, the trinity).

4. Prophecy - but this avenue was the one that I thought we were about to go down.  We can still continue.  Though, the only way

we can do it is with following the rules, by assuming that issues 1,2, and 3 are all sufficiently dealt with and now do not pose any more

problems.  In order to test prophecy, we have to only use prophecy logic, to be able to make sure that THAT is what we are surely

testing.  In an experiment, we have to maintain control of all variables and manipulate only one at a time in order to know that what

effects occur are all products of that one variable being manipulated.  If we change all variables in one test, then we can never know

the exact reason why the products happened such.  In order to use prophecy logic we have to keep all the other variables as

assumed to be okay, so we can be for sure that Muhammad either passes or fails according to accurate and concrete PROPHECY

alone.

 

Which path do you want to venture down.  It is impossible to get a sure conclusion, just as surely as a scientist wouldn't, by juggling

all issues at once and jumping around.  Name your quote, and let's roll.

 

With respect and care in Christ,

Brian Lucero

 

Subject:

            Re: david curious of conversation

       Date:

            Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:27:05 -0700

      From:

            "David Mohammadi" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

        To:

            "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13

 

 

 

 

Brian,

 

I'm not trying to jump issues here.  If it appears that way to you, then i must not be making myself clear so I will try better.

 

Before I go on, I want to tell you what my intentions are.  I have no problem with Jesus Christ.  He is the messiah, even muslims believe

that.  Muslims are supposed to respect the people of the book, any muslim who does not, is not a good muslim.  However, my problem is

this.  The rational that Christians use to say the Islam is not a religioun of God.  And by God i don't mean the moon god, or satan, but the

same God Jesus and moses and Abraham prayed to.  Just the denial of the truth and the refusal to even read about the religioun is what

dissapoints me about most Christians.  I can tell by talking to you, you are very educated in the main religiouns of the world and I wish

that more people were like you.  Wouldn't you agree with with what the prophet Mohammad said, the religioun that one man picks is the

one that makes most sense to him.  As for myself, that is what I am doing.  I am neither christian, muslim, or Jew right now but exploring

and trying to pick the religioun that makes the most sense to me.  The conclusion that I have made so far in my quest is that all three are

the religiouns of the same God.  I know you would disagree, but we can leave that for another discussion.

 

Now back to our discussion and Deutoronomy 18.  After carefully reading your view point I understand it and I agree with you that this

person is Jesus. I am not a person who is stubborn and bias, but rather I am person in search of the truth. Now I want to look at another

prophecy the covenant that God made with Abraham, it is as follows.

 

As for me, behold my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be the father of many nations. (Genesis 17: 4)

 

 Let us now consider if the prophecy about the last prophet was to be fulfilled

through Isaac or Ishmael.

 

" And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee. Behold I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him

exceedingly. Twelve princes shall he beget and I will make him a great nation." (Genesis 17:20)

 

Again in Isaiah:

 

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the

Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of council and might, the spirit of knowledge

and the fear of the Lord."

 

According to the Encyclopedia Biblica, Jesse is most probably contracted from Ishmael and someone from the progeny of Ishmael

will demonstrate all the above-mentioned qualities. (Isaiah: 11 1-2.)

 

Historically the fulfillment of the covenant was brought about through the progeny of Isaac.

 

"And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in

all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called."(Genesis 21: 12)

 

But God also warned the Children of Israel that if they would not renounce their evil ways, the covenant would be taken away from

them and given to another nation. This is the most compelling argument for the fulfillment of the covenant through Ishmael’s lineage.

The following verse says:

 

"Therefore I say unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you and given to a nation bringing forth

thereof" (Mathew 21: 43)

 

Jesus does not specify who this nation is but talks of the "shift" in prophetic leadership. He also says in the previous verse that it will

be a rejected nation. The current plight of the Muslims seems to suggest this situation. The prophecy reads:

 

’And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken, but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder"

(Mathew 21:42)

 

The Fig Tree and how it has withered’

 

"And when he saw the fig tree in the way, he came to it and found nothing thereon, but leaves only and said unto it, let no

fruit grow on thee henceforward forever. And presently the fig tree withered away."(Mathew 21:19)

 

The fig tree is the Jewish symbol for prophetic heritage. Jesus again hints at a change of prophetic leadership in the above verse;

 

Consider the underlined phrase; It suggest that no more prophets will be produced from the lineage of Isaac after Jesus, but a

prophet will rise from another nation who will proclaim the religion of God for the entire world.

 

 

 

The lineage of Kedar and the verses of Isaiah.

 

The prophet Muhammad’s lineage.

 

Abraham, Ishmael, Kedar, Adnan (40th descendant from Kedar) Ma’aad, Nizar, Mudar, Ilyas, Mudrikah, Khuzaimah, Kinanah,

Al-Nadr, Malik, Quraysh (Fihr), Ghalib, Lu’ayy, Ka’ab, Murrah, Kilab, Qusayy, Abd Manaf, Hashim, Abdul Muttalib, Abdullah,

Muhammad(pbuh)

 

In the Bible, Kedar and Arabia are synonymous. The Arabians also practiced the same religion as the Israelites, as they circumcised

their sons and were professed monotheists. According to The Interpreter’s Bible, "Many Israelites did not want a God who would

be equally the God of all nations on earth"… so we read in Deuteronomy of demands for a complete extermination of all non-Israelite

peoples of Palestine." This may account for the exaggeration in some biblical texts of the role of the Israelites and their exclusive claim

to God. Lets look at the following references to Kedar and how it affects the exclusive claim of the Israelites.

 

"Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: Let the inhabitants of

the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains. Let them give glory unto their Lord and declare his praise in

the islands. (Isaiah 42: 11-12)

 

What one must bear in mind is that the God of Israel was also the God of Kedar. This has always been the position of Islam. Also the

"glory unto their Lord" referred to in the above verse, is an act of a Muslim’s daily life (Allah O Akbar) (God is great)

 

(Al HumdoLillah) (All praise is for God) etc. The reference to "islands", could mean Indonesia as it is the largest Muslim country.

 

"Arise, Shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee, for behold the darkness shall cover the

Earth and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the

Gentiles shall come to thy light, and the kings to the brightness of thy rising. Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all

they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far and thy daughters shall be nursed at

thy side, then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of

the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. The multitude of camels shall cover

thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah all they from Sheba shall come; They shall bring gold and incense; and they

shall shew forth the praises of the Lord and the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of

Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine alter, and I will glorify the house of my

glory"(Isaiah 60: 1-7)

 

It was the gentiles who responded to Muhammad’s calling and make up the vast majority of those who profess Islam. The "house of

my glory" refers to the Ka'bah, in Mecca, which is called the House of God and was built by Abraham and Ishmael

 

"For thus hath the Lord said unto me, within a year, according to the years of a hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall

fail. And the residue of the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar shall be diminished: for the Lord

of Israel has spoken it." (Isaiah 21: 16 –17)

 

The children of Kedar or the army of the Prophet Muhammad will be defeated at some point according to the above verse. This

happened at the battle of Uhud, but after that the religion of Islam spread among many nations, fulfilling the prophecy in the previous

verse "the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee."

 

One can only conclude after a careful consideration of these verses of the Bible that the last prophet shall arise out of the progeny of

Ishmael rather than Isaac. One must consider the shift in prophetic leadership as pointed out in the Bible and also the many references

to Kedar and his glory, who was the ancestor of the Prophet Muhammad.

 

May peace and blessing be upon you

 

David

Subject:

            Re: david curious of conversation

       Date:

            Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:21:12 -0500

      From:

            brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

        To:

            David Mohammadi <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14

 

 

 

 

David,

 

I really commend your honesty in the opening paragraphs of your last email.  It gives me more motivation to keep on investing my

time into this correspondence with you when you admit that you can see the truth without bias when it comes, as in Deut. 18.   It is

encouraging to hear that you are still searching and that you have not settled down and become concrete on any of the three religions

and stopped listening to anyone anymore.  It is great that we can talk this openly.  Most people who have settled down should follow

your example more and open up an talk about these types of things.  I remind you again, I too am still open to the truth from any

angle and any religion.  If your proof is good enough, then I will not trun a blind eye, but I will accept it with full joy.  Let's continue.

 

In your last email, you conceded that Deut. 18 must be talking about Jesus and surely not Muhammad.   And now you've replied with

a list of 10 more supposed prophecies about Muhammad.  Now carefully note what I said last time (or the time before), that each

prophecy should usually be able to stand ALONE and still be CLEAR enought to point to a specific person or thing.  Let me ask you

to rethink your list that you've created below and weed out the ones that you think do not pass this simplpe test.  I will give you my

suggestions and you tell me if you agree that those are not really prophecies.

 

Set 1

1. Gen. 17:4

2. Gen. 17:20

3. Gen. 21:12

4.Isaiah 11:1-2

Set 2

5. Matt. 21:19

6. Matt. 21:42-43

Set 3

7. Isaiah 21:16-17

8. Isaiah 42:11-12

9. Isaiah 60:1-7

 

 

Genesis 17:4

    As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

1. Okay, Abraham is guarenteed to have decendents, and those decendent will make up nations.

 

Genesis 17:20

    And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall

he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

2. And Ishmael will also have kids that will make up nations.

 

Genesis 21:12

    And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto

thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

3.  The "called" seed of Abraham will be in Isaac.

 

Isaiah 11:1-2

    And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: [2] And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him,

the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

4. This is indeed a specific prophecy.

 

Matthew 21:19

    And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee

henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

5. This is an historical event, showing that Jesus did a miracle for the purpose of teaching something.  This is not a prophecy, but

perhaps it could be used as evidence to back up the reason for a prophecy to be useful.

 

Matthew 21:42-43

    Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is

the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? [43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation

bringing forth the fruits thereof.

6.  This is definitely a prophecy, and probably related with number 8.

 

Isaiah 21:16-17

    For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Within a year, according to the years of an hireling, and all the glory of Kedar shall fail: [17] And the residue of

the number of archers, the mighty men of the children of Kedar, shall be diminished: for the Lord God of Israel hath spoken it.

7. This is a prophecy, but not about a person - maybe a nation, but not about a prophet.

 

Isaiah 42:11-12

    Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout

from the top of the mountains. [12] Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare his praise in the islands.

8. This may be able to be called a prophecy.  We will investigate it further.

 

Isaiah 60:1-7

    Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. [2] For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross

darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. [3] And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings

to the brightness of thy rising. [4] Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come

from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. [5] Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because

the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. [6] The multitude of camels shall cover thee,

the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the

Lord. [7] All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with

acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory.

9. This may be a prophecy.  We will investigate.

 

I will suggest a new list to be talked about as follows, everything eliminated from this list is irrevelant:

4. Isaiah 11:1-2

5. Matt. 21:19

6. Matt. 21:42-43

8. Isaiah 42:11-12

9. Isaiah 60:1-7

 

If you disagree with my list, then please explain.

 

In Christ,

Brian Lucero

 

p.s. In the mean time I have some homework for you to read.  Please try to understadn the arguments of both people in these

articles.  It will save us a lot of time trying to go over and over again talking about things that have already been talked about in the

same way already.  I will quiz you on what each point of view is saying, so get ready.

Isaiah 42 and other  http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/mhd_bible.htm

Isaiah 11 http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Al-Kadhi/r06.09.html

Isaiah 21 http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Al-Kadhi/r06.05.html

Matt. 21  http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Al-Kadhi/r06.13.html

 

 

Subject:

        david curious of conversation

   Date:

        Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:15:57 -0700

   From:

        "David Mohammadi" <dave1003@surewest.net>

     To:

        <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: David [mailto:xdave1003@hotmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 2:15 PM

To: brian lucero

Subject: Re: david curious of conversation

 

 

 

Brian, I am glad you brought up those new verses.  Let us take a look at them one at a time, here is my opinion starting with the 4th one.

 

 

 

Isaiah 11:1-2.   1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the

LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of

the LORD; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither

reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth:

and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. 5

 

 

 

Yes Brian I agree that Jesus is a descendant of Jesse, but then again Jesse is

contracted from Ishmael therefore mohammad also is a decendant of jesse..  You

gave me this link   “the fact that Jesus is the branch is clearly seen by Jeremiah (23:5-6) "The days are surely coming,

says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice

and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. And this is the name by which he will be

called: The Lord is our righteousness".

 

 

 

Well, first of all.  This is in a whole different chapter.  Why must it be a part of the Isaiah prophecy?  Sounds like another assumption by

the author.

 

 

 

Secondly, reading the rest of Isaih from 3-5.  "In fear of the lord" Christians constantly say Islam is a religioun of fear and it does preach to

fear none but God and the wrath of God.  It also goes on to say to he shall slay the wicked.  During the time of Mohammad the Muslims

expanded throughout killing the non believers. From what you have sent me, there is no irrefutable evidence to say that this cannot be

Muhammad.

 

 

 

David

 

Subject:

        The Name Jesus

   Date:

        Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:24:32 -0700

   From:

        "David" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

     To:

        "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 

 

 

 

Hi Brian, i know this is a little off topic, but I just have to share it with you.

 

http://wwwanswering-christianity.com/eesa.htm#qur'an

 

May peace and blessing be upon you

 

David

 

Subject:

            Re: The Name Jesus

       Date:

            Mon, 15 Aug 2005 14:23:21 -0500

      From:

            brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

        To:

            David <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 References:

            1

 

 

 

 

David,

 

Thanks for the link.  It brings up an interesting topic that if you feel we should address in the future, I believe that it would be helpful

as well to discuss.  As a note about your source, I want to let you know that the author of the site answering-christianity.com, Osama

Abdallah, is considered a heretic by many mainstream Muslims in many of his beliefs.  If you want to represent Islam with a more

reliable character, I suggest you use other Muslim websites as your main source (perhaps Islam Awareness or other).  You can

follow this link to learn more about this site: <http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/index.htm>

It also conveniently puts in talbe form many of the points brought up by Osama's site and addresses them with clear critiques.  Enjoy.

 

Brian Lucero

 

Subject:

        4th one

   Date:

        Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:14:29 -0500

   From:

        brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

     To:

        David Mohammadi <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 

 

 

 

David,

 

Thanks for your thoughts.   You said, "Yes Brian I agree that Jesus is a descendant of Jesse, but then again Jesse is contracted from

Ishmael therefore mohammad also is a decendant of jesse.."  First of all, Jesse is a real name of a real person in the Bible, that father

of David, the great grandfather, down the lineage, of Jesus.  If we follow this real person's lineage, we will never get to Muhammad.

So we see that Jesus is the descendent of David, who is a descendent of Jesse, who is a descendent of Isaac, who is a descendent of

Abraham.  The natural reading of this verse is obvious - it is talking about a real figure in the history of lineage.

 

You say that the word Jesse is derived from Ishmael.  Even if it is, so what?  Most names from the same language are derived from

each other.  Let's say my name, Brian, is derived from Bob.  And my mother writes a Christmas letter to her friend in Texas telling

her about our family in the last year.  She writes, "Brian son Tommy was born in the beginning of June."  Do you think her friend will

understand that the Tommy is the son of Brian, the real person?  Or do you think, that she will assume that because the actual general

name "Brian" is derived from "Bob", the real father of Tommy is Bob?  It is obvious that my mother is talking about the person Brian,

not the name brian.  I admit that biblical prophecies perhaps may not be as clear and distinct as this.  They may do some sort of word

games and make vague allusions.  But what does this prove?  It proves that if you take a prophecy and somehow, after much effort,

squeeze out of it word games to mean something different from the natural reading of it, that this prophecy is weak and unlikely.

Second, the person Jesse and his son David, are characters in the Bible frequently talked about.  A prophecy about the literal person

is in order:

 

Ruth 4:17

    And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he is the father of Jesse, the

father of David.

1 Samuel 17:58

    And Saul said to him, Whose son art thou, thou young man? And David answered, I am the son of thy servant Jesse the Bethlehemite.

1 Chron. 12:18

    Then the spirit came upon Amasai, who was chief of the captains, and he said, Thine are we, David, and on thy side, thou son of Jesse: peace, peace

be unto thee, and peace be to thine helpers; for thy God helpeth thee. Then David received them, and made them captains of the band.

Psalm 72:20

    The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Isaiah 11:1

    And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Matthew 1:5-6

    And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king

begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

Luke 3:32

    Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the son of Naasson,

Acts 13:22

    And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the

son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

Romans 15:12

    And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

 

Jesus lineage is of David, Jesse, Isacc, and Abraham.  If Jesse meant Ishmael, then this lineage and all the other prophecies would not

make sense:

 

Matthew 1:1-16

    The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. [2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob

begat Judas and his brethren; [3] And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; [4] And Aram begat

Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; [5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and

Obed begat Jesse; [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; [7] And Solomon

begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; [8] And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; [9]

And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; [10] And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and

Amon begat Josias; [11] And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: [12] And after they were

brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; [13] And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim

begat Azor; [14] And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; [15] And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan;

and Matthan begat Jacob; [16] And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

 

On top of all of this we are given DEFINITIONS of the title "BRANCH".  That is why we are able to take from another text.  Not to

just take a random text, but we are using a text that has the exact same word, "branch".  It is obviously not an independent prophecy.

 

Isaiah 11:1-2.   1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots.

 

Jeremiah (23:5-6) "The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal

wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety.  And this is the name by

which he will be called: The Lord is our righteousness".

 

Moreover, the person who is this "branch" is for David, or from David.  If Jesse is Ishmael, then how could the branch be for David,

the son of the real person Jesse?  (As a side note about the trinity:  that this prophecy clearly is talking about Jesus, descendent of

David, Jesse, Isaac, and Abraham, please read the last underlined part.  The son of David, the sone of Jesse, the son of Isaac, who is

the Branch will have a very explicit characteristic making up his name:  he will be called "THE LORD IS OUR

RIGHTEOUSNESS".  The prophet to come,the Branch will be the LORD GOD come down from heaven to be in our midst.  The

Messiah will be God).

 

It is interesting that when Jesus was born, he was called Emmanuel, fulfilling this exact phrase in Isaiah and Jeremiah:

Matthew 1:23

    Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

 

Interestingly, Isaiah, the SAME author that writes about this "branch", a few chapters earlier talks about thisi IMMANUEL:

Isaiah 7:14

    Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

 

I don't think that Isaiah could be more clear, even if he wanted, about this branch, out of the roots of David and Jesse.

 

In Christ,

Brian Lucero

 

 

Subject:

            Re: 4th one

       Date:

            Tue, 16 Aug 2005 12:01:00 -0500

      From:

            brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

        To:

            David <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 References:

            1 , 2

 

 

 

 

Yes, I have looked at the Hebrew context (I have a tangible copy of Al-Kadi's book).  It does not change a thing.   I don't see the

big point.  Names and words are always related within a language.  This does not prove anything that Jesse is similar in derivation to

Ishmael.  It is still a very weak point.   Read the rest of the context of the prophecy, and use the definitions given to discover who it is

talking about.  It can't possibly be talking about Ishmael.  According to the definition of "branch", are we to now assume that

Muhammad is God?

 

And by the way, Jesus is called Immanuel.  First of all, when Mary was pregnant, the Angel called him that, and all who were in the

room.  Then His last name throughout His life meant that:  "christ", the fulfillment of the one who was prophecied to be called God, as

according to this verse we are talking about right now.

 

In Christ,

Brian

 

Subject:

            Re: 4th one

       Date:

            Tue, 16 Aug 2005 14:08:11 -0700

      From:

            "David" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

        To:

            "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3

 

 

 

 

Ok, i will look at the rest of the prophecy.  But show me verses in which they called Jesus "Immanuel" Never in his life time by any of the

apostles or anyone that I have seen for that matter have called Jesus Immanuel.  As for the name christ look up the origination of the

name.  It is originally Messiah which means "annointed in hebrew" the greeks later helenized it to christos and king james shortened it to

christ.  Christ does not mean the one who was prophecized to be god, i dont' know where your sources are from but they are innacurate.

 

Subject:

            Re: 4th one

       Date:

            Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:03:21 -0500

      From:

            brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

        To:

            David <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4

 

 

 

 

David,

 

I just showed you: in Matthew, Gabriel appeared to Joseph and Mary and called the infant Immanuel.  So all throughout Jesus' life,

Mary and Joseph, and whoever they told knew that Jesus was nicknamed Immanuel.

 

I know that "christ" doesn't mean "God on earth", and that it is derivative of the hebrew "Messiah" = "annointed one".  What I am

saying is that the prophecies of this Messiah, described the coming annointed one as being God come down to earth among other

characteristics (i.e. born of a virgin, born in bethlehem, living a sinless life, dying physically to bear the sins of the transgressor, of the

seed of David, of the seed of Abraham, of the seed of Jesse, and having intrinsic names equal to "the Lord our righteousness",

"Everlasting Father", "Mighty God", "Emmanuel", "The Branch", "The Holy One of Israel", and hundreds more).  The coming

Messiah, that all these Messianic prophecies are about, will have to fulfill all of these characteristics.  That is why the Jews, when

looking for the Messiah, were looking for God.  Jesus was called "the Christ" or "Messiah", which is saying that He is the One that

has all these characteristics, including being "Immanuel".

 

Why do you think the Jews actually killed Him?  Because he claimed to be the Messiah - which means that He is claiming to be

God.  They responded that this was blasphemy:  not that someone WOULD or COULD be God (for that was obvious, that the

Messiah would have to be).  But it was blasphemy the HE HIMSELF was claiming to be that Messiah.  They didn't believe the

Messiah God would be someone like HIM.  So they thought He was lying, and so said he was blaspheming.

 

Hope this is clearer.

 

In Christ,

Brian

Subject:

            Re: 4th one

       Date:

            Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:34:58 -0700

      From:

            "David" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

        To:

            "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5

 

 

 

 

Brian,

 

 

It's not that Jesse is similar to derivation to Ishmael, it IS Ishmael. It states it in the encyclopedia biblica itself.

 

"Jesse, for Ishmael… The changes which proper names undergo in the mouths of small children account for a

large number of these particular abbreviations - who could guess, to take modern examples, that Bob and Dick

arose out of Robert and Richard? … such forms as in ai were particularly common in later times … and many

more in the Talmud, which also exhibits various other kinds of abbreviation"

 

Encyclopaedia Biblica, Rev. T. K. Cheyne D.Litt D.D., J. Sutherland Black M.A. LL.D., Vol. 3, under "Names," p.

3292, item 52

 

It is further interesting to note the following words of the authors of this same "Encyclopaedia Biblica": They say: "In many cases the

contraction is such as to render the discovery of the original form impossible." … hmm.

 

The only "branch" from the stem of Ishmael who was a statesman, a prophet and a judge was prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The

reason many people interpret this verse to apply to Jesus (pbuh) is because he is claimed to be of the lineage of king David, and Jesse

was the name of the father of king David. However, why would this prophesy tie the coming prophet to the father of David who was

for all practical purposes a completely unknown figure in the Bible? It would be much more logical to follow the much more popular

trend found elsewhere in the Bible of associating Jesus with king David himself who was both a king and a prophet and a much more

popular figure in the Bible and much better known to anyone who reads it. In other words, what is so direly special about king

David's father that this prophesy had to completely bypass the legendary prophet king David himself in order to apply itself to his

unknown father? The answer is that it was not meant to apply to the father of king David but to a descendant of Ishmael the son of

prophet Abraham.

 

 

It is further important to remember that insisting on tying prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) to a human lineage descendant from king

David shall ultimately result in a complete nullification of the religion known today as "Christianity." This is because if Jesus is the

descendant of king David then he has a human father and his father is not God.

 

Therefore, the only way that Jesus (pbuh) could be the physical Son of God and also be the physical son of king David "according

to the flesh" is if his lineage from kind David passes through his (human) mother Mary (pbuh). However, if we were to read the two

contradictory lineages found in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 we would find that both attempt to make his lineage pass through a human

father. In one it is "Joseph the son of Jacob" and in the other is "Joseph the son of Heli."

You try to tie it into other chapters of the bible to explain it, but whose to say those are speaking of the same prophecy?

 

Something is defintely odd about his name.  First of all, i don't even want to call him Jesus because it is an insult to him.  I strongly

recommend reading that link i sent you about what Jesus' real name is.  Secondly, Emmanuel is his nickname?? I mean comeon. The

way that it's stated in there sounds like it is defintely his name.  If only 2 people call him by emmanuel (if they even did call him by

emmanuel) i don't consider it his name.  It seems more likely the authors of the bible just threw that in there to fullfill the prophecies.

 

 

Subject:

            Re: 4th one

       Date:

            Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:01:48 -0500

      From:

            brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

        To:

            David <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6

 

 

 

 

David,

 

Sorry it took so long to reply.   I just got back from an international missions trip.

  

 

The Encyclopedia says, "Jesse, for Ishmael."   The fact is that it still says Jesse.  And yes, it is a derivation.  You must have

forgotten about the first source where your got your info.  In the hebrew Jesse sounds linguistically similar to Ishmael, and that is why

Jesse is a proper substitute for Ishmael in the first place.  But it is NOT Ishmael.  ONLY, it may be applied to mean Ishmael, after the

context supports that conclusion, NOT the other way around.  You are not reading your interpretation of the prophecy out of the

text, but rather you are reading it into the text, despite what the context of surrounding vocabulary allows (see Jeremiah discussed

already in defining "branch").

 

Questions to ask yourself that might help to clarify:

 

1. Since Jesse IS Ishmael, in your view, the would you say that all the following verses in the Bible refer to Ishmael as well?

 

Ruth 4:17

    And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he is the father of Jesse, the

father of David.

Ruth 4:22

    And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.

1 Samuel 16:1

    And the Lord said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and

go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons.

2 Samuel 23:1

    Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and

the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,

1 Kings 12:16

    So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have

we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.

1 Chron. 2:12-13

    And Boaz begat Obed, and Obed begat Jesse,

    [13] And Jesse begat his firstborn Eliab, and Abinadab the second, and Shimma the third,

1 Chron. 10:14

    And enquired not of the Lord: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

Psalm 72:20

    The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Isaiah 11:1

    And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isaiah 11:10

    And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be

glorious.

Matthew 1:5-6

    And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king

begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;

 

2.  In the verses above, is it clear that the Jesse being talked about is seperate and distinct from Ishmael, the son of Abraham?

 

About the term Immanuel.  You say  "Secondly, Emmanuel is his nickname?? I mean comeon. The way that it's stated in there

sounds like it is defintely his name.  If only 2 people call him by emmanuel (if they even did call him by emmanuel) i don't consider it his

name.  It seems more likely the authors of the bible just threw that in there to fullfill the prophecies."

 

Obviously you don't know what biblical prophecy should look like.  That is how it works in Hebrew culture, and even in Arab culture.  You

say what their name will be, and then find the definition of that name and apply compare it to the characteristics of the prophet's life.  I just

quoted you Jeremiah:

 

Jeremiah (23:5-6) "The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal

wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety.  And this is the name by

which he will be called: The Lord is our righteousness".

 

It says his NAME will be "The Lord our righteousness".  Obviously his technical name will not be that.  That is not what the prophecy

is saying.  It means that that is who will be the coming Branch, the prophet, the Messiah.  His name doens't have to be exactly "The

Lord Our Righteousness".  Similar in style of phophecy is Isaiah:

 

Isaiah 9:6

    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,

Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

Again, his NAME will not be: "Wonderful Counselor The Mighty God The Everlasting Father The Prince of Peace".  And he will not

be called all these at the same or different times.  These names are what characterizes the prophet.  Just like in Islam, the 99 names of

Allah characterize the attributes of Allah.  You need to study biblical prophecy before you can say  "I mean comeon. The way that it's

stated in there sounds like it is defintely his name."

 

I hope this helps.

In Christ,

Brian Lucero

 

 

Subject:

            Re: 4th one

       Date:

            Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:00:27 -0700

      From:

            "David Mohammadi" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

        To:

            "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7

 

 

 

 

Brian, I see where you are coming from but you are getting off track. I don't want to look at the hundreds of verses. The bottom line is

Jesse can be either Ishmael and it can be Jesse.  Now,let's look back at that original verse and see who more closely resembles the

prophecy. You didn't explain to me how it can apply to Jesus when:

 

The only "branch" from the stem of Jesse  who was a statesman, a prophet and a judge was prophet Muhammad (pbuh). The reason

many people interpret this verse to apply to Jesus (pbuh) is because he is claimed to be of the lineage of king David, and Jesse was

the name of the father of king David. However, why would this prophecy tie the coming prophet to the father of David who was for

all practical purposes a completely unknown figure in the Bible? It would be much more logical to follow the much more popular

trend found elsewhere in the Bible of associating Jesus with king David himself who was both a king and a prophet and a much more

popular figure in the Bible and much better known to anyone who reads it. In other words, what is so direly special about king

David's father that this prophecy had to completely bypass the legendary prophet king David himself in order to apply itself to his

unknown father? The answer is that it was not meant to apply to the father of king David but to a descendant of Ishmael the son of

prophet Abraham.

It is further important to remember that insisting on tying prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) to a human lineage descendant from king

David shall ultimately result in a complete nullification of the religion known today as "Christianity." This is because if Jesus is the

descendant of king David then he has a human father and his father is not God. Therefore, the only way that Jesus (pbuh) could be

the physical Son of God and also be the physical son of king David "according to the flesh" is if his lineage from kind David passes

through his (human) mother Mary (pbuh). However, if we were to read the two contradictory lineages found in Matthew 1 and Luke

3 we would find that both attempt to make his lineage pass through a human father. In one it is "Joseph the son of Jacob" and in the

other is "Joseph the son of Heli."

 

Subject:

            Re: 4th one

       Date:

            Fri, 02 Sep 2005 08:47:31 -0500

      From:

            brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

        To:

            David Mohammadi <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8

 

 

 

 

David,

 

I answered your questions about the "name" of the prophet and you didn't repond, and I asked a few questions and you didn't

respond.  To progress we have to state clearly where we are going and after we have gotten there what we have finished and

concluded on certain points.  I am not getting off track; rather, I am trying to make a point with those "hundred's of verses".  I will try

to explain again since you are not getting it.

 

1.  Do you agree with my assessment of the "name" of the coming prophet not necessarily being his actual name?

2.  You said that Jesse IS Ishmael.  I am quoting those "hundreds" of verses to show you where it clearly cannot be so in those cases,

meaning that it is only a DERIVATION and DIFFERENT than Ishmael (which you did not at first allow me to say - again you didn't

respond to this logic, but now you have a chance).

3.  You ask how can Jesus be that Branch since he is not a stateseman, prophet, and judge.  (actually the verse more literally says

king, wise, and judge (with a capital J meaning the One who will judge in the end according to righteousness).  First, Jesus himself

says that his kindom is not of this world, but that when he comes back he will rule with all power.  This makes him a king on earth,

not at his first coming, but at his second coming.  But he says that his kingdom is not of this world, meaning that He IS saying that He

is a king, but just not HERE at this moment.  Being wise, Jesus says He knows the hearts of men, the past, future, and present.  That

His wisdom is not of this world like EVERYONE else's, but from above.  He appeals to the fact that He came down to earth from

above, and so has a heavenly wisdom, and that everyone else who was born of this world has only an earthly wisdom.  (this means

that Jesus is calling Muhammed's wisdom not perfect, but foolish).  Being a Judge, Jesus said that He was the only one to whom God

gave to be the Judge at the end of the world.  Not only will He be a judge, He will be THE JUDGE of all righteousness, as the

prophecy requires.   So Jesus is THE KING, and will come back and establish HIS KINGDOM.  Jesus is PERFECTLY WISE,

BECAUSE He is from above.  Jesus is also going to be the ONLY JUDGE of ALL righteousness.  Muhammad can't fulfill any of

these as the prophecy requires.  Yes, he might be wise, or have statemen like qualities, or judge certain matters.  But as the prophecy

requires, Jesus fulfills all of these characteristics, but at a 100% level, PERFECTLY.  Jesus is THE King, THE WISE, THE JUDGE.

4.  Why would the prophecy tie the prophet to the father of david, Jesse, when he is practically unknown in the bible?   Well, first of

all, Jesse the father of David isn't unkown.  I just quoted to you "hundreds" of verse that made him known.  Everyone knows who

Jesse is, that is why ancient Jewish literature, all talk about this verse of Jesse as pertaining to the father of David.  This was a well

known and understood verse about the Messiah.  If you really want to ask who this verse is naturally about, and who is

"well-known", then ask the Jews who have had to interpret this verse for thousands of years, even before Jesus came on the scene.

This shows that this is not just Christians trying to make the verse say what they want.  It was and is well known that is it about the

Messiah coming through Jesse, the father of david.

5.  You made the last part of your email bold.  What are you trying to say?  Are you wanting to go back to talk abotu the trinity

again, asking how Jesus can have an earthly AND a spiritual father?   I am fine with talking about that, but I would think you would

want to keep "on track" and finish the rest of your so called prophecies about Muhammad.

 

With respect, In Christ,

Brian Lucero

 

 

 

Subject:

            Re: 4th one

       Date:

            Sat, 3 Sep 2005 11:11:33 -0700

      From:

            "David Mohammadi" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

        To:

            "brian lucero" <brian@lucerofamily.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9

 

 

 

 

Brian,

 

Ok i agree with you on questions 1-4.  However question 5 is still blurry to me.  How exactly is he a descendent of king David if it isn't

through his mother and his father is God.

 

Subject:

            Re: 4th one

       Date:

            Sat, 03 Sep 2005 16:18:21 -0500

      From:

            brian lucero <brian@lucerofamily.com>

        To:

            David Mohammadi <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

 References:

            1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10

 

 

 

 

Here are the geneologies:

 

1.  Matthew 1:1-17

    The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. [2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob

begat Judas and his brethren; [3] And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; [4] And Aram begat

Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; [5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and

Obed begat Jesse; [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; [7] And Solomon

begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; [8] And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; [9]

And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; [10] And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and

Amon begat Josias; [11] And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: [12] And after they were

brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; [13] And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim

begat Azor; [14] And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; [15] And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan;

and Matthan begat Jacob; [16] And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. [17] So all the generations

from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying

away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

 

2.  Luke 3:23-38

    And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, [24] Which was

the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, [25] Which

was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Amos, which was the son of Naum, which was the son of Esli, which was the son of Nagge, [26]

Which was the son of Maath, which was the son of Mattathias, which was the son of Semei, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Juda,

[27] Which was the son of Joanna, which was the son of Rhesa, which was the son of Zorobabel, which was the son of Salathiel, which was the son of

Neri, [28] Which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Addi, which was the son of Cosam, which was the son of Elmodam, which was the son

of Er, [29] Which was the son of Jose, which was the son of Eliezer, which was the son of Jorim, which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of

Levi, [30] Which was the son of Simeon, which was the son of Juda, which was the son of Joseph, which was the son of Jonan, which was the son of

Eliakim, [31] Which was the son of Melea, which was the son of Menan, which was the son of Mattatha, which was the son of Nathan, which was the

son of David, [32] Which was the son of Jesse, which was the son of Obed, which was the son of Booz, which was the son of Salmon, which was the

son of Naasson, [33] Which was the son of Aminadab, which was the son of Aram, which was the son of Esrom, which was the son of Phares, which

was the son of Juda, [34] Which was the son of Jacob, which was the son of Isaac, which was the son of Abraham, which was the son of Thara, which

was the son of Nachor, [35] Which was the son of Saruch, which was the son of Ragau, which was the son of Phalec, which was the son of Heber,

which was the son of Sala, [36] Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noe,

which was the son of Lamech, [37] Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of

Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, [38] Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of

God.

 

Matthew's audience was to the Jews of his time, therefore appealing to and recording the geneology of Jesus according to

ROYALTY - meaning that he was following the rules of royal lineage such as using the the first son, only through the father, and so

on.  This is shown by the example that I highlighted in bold, where Matthew uses the son of David to be Solomon, the oldest son and

next king of Israel, as the rule requires.  Using royal lineage does not exclude using adopted sons from passing this "royalty" along, as

we can cite many examples in Old Testament texts.  This is why, as Jesus had no earthly father, he was adopted into Joseph's lineage

by way of his mother, Mary, marrying Joseph.  Because Jesus is now the son, not genetically but by adoption, of Joseph, he inherits

the royalty of his lineage, allowing Jesus to be the King after the order of his great grandfather David, as the prophecy requires.

 

Luke's audience was particularly the Gentiles, and so used another way to trace back Jesus' lineage to David, but by appealing to the

GENETIC lineage.  You can see above, as I highlighted in the two geneologies that Joseph's father was both Jacob and Heli.  But

how can that be.  Well, Joseph's biological father was Jacob, but his father-in-law was Heli, because he married Mary whose

biological father is Heli.  (In Jewish culture, if a man and wife have no sons but only daughters, then the man whom the oldest

daughter marries is now considered the son of that couple who had no actual sons, so as to pass on the name of the family).  In

Luke's geneology we see that Heli's lineage goes way back to David, but through Nathan the son of David.  But Heli is the biological

father of Mary, who is the biological mother of Jesus, meaning that Jesus is "genetically" the son of David.

 

To recap, Jesus is the royal son of David by adoption through Joseph's blood line which passes through Solomon to David.  But

Jesus is also the genetic son of David through his biological mother's, Mary, blood line which passes through Nathan to David.  To

read it more concsicely, see this commentary:

 

"In the genealogy described by Luke, there are two sons improperly such: i.e., two sons-in-law instead of two sons. The two sons-in-law who are to be

noticed in this genealogy are Joseph, the son-in-law of Heli, whose own father was Jacob, Mt. 1.16; and Salathiel, the son-in-law of Neri, whose own

father was Jechonias, 1. Chron. 3.17 and Mt. 1.12. This remark alone is sufficient to remove every difficulty. Thus it appears that Joseph, son of Jacob,

according to Matthew, was son-in-law of Heli, according to Luke. And Salathiel, son of Jechonias, according to the former, was son-in-law of Neri,

according to the latter. Mary therefore appears to have been the daughter of Heli, so called by abbreviation for Heliachim, which is the same in Hebrew

with Joachim, Joseph, son of Jacob, and Mary, daughter of Heli, were of the same family. Both came from Zerubbabel; Joseph from Abiud, his eldest

son, Mt. 1.13; and Mary by Rhesa, the youngest. (See vs. 27). It is worthy of being remarked that Matthew, who wrote principally for the Jews, extends

his genealogy to Abraham, through whom the promise of the Messiah was given to the Jews, but Luke, who wrote his history for the instruction of

the Gentiles, extends his genealogy to Adam, to whom the promise of the Redeemer was given in behalf of himself and of all his posterity".

Adam Clark Commentary, pp.861 + 862

 

What is very interesting to me is that Ibn Kathir, Muslim commentator, agrees with the Christian assessment of the subject, agreeing

that Jesus is indeed the Son of David:

 

Noted Muslim commentator Ibn Kathir wrote:

Mentioning `Isa in the offspring of Ibrahim, or Nuh as we stated above, is proof that the grandchildren from a man's daughter's side are included

among his offspring. `Isa is included among Ibrahim's progeny through his mother, although `Isa did not have a father. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that

Abu Harb bin Abi Al-Aswad said, "Al-Hajjaj sent to Yahya bin Ya`mar, saying, `I was told that you claim that Al-Hasan and Al-Husayn are from the

offspring of the Prophet, did you find it in the Book of Allah I read the Qur'an from beginning to end and did not find it?' Yahya said, `Do you not read

in Surat Al-An`am, …

<and Yahya and `Isa…>

Al-Hajjaj said, `Yes.' Yahya said, `Is not `Isa from the offspring of Ibrahim, although he did not have a father' Al-Hajjaj said, `You have said the truth.’"

For example, when a man leaves behind a legacy, a trust, or gift to his "offspring'' then the children of his daughters are included. But if a man gives

something to his "sons'', or he leaves a trust behind for them, then that would be particular to his male children and their male children ...

<http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=6&tid=15914>

 

For more sources on the subject, you can see the following links.   However, you probably do not need to.  It should be pretty clear

now already.

 

<http://answering-islam.org.uk/Responses/Osama/jesus_yahweh3.htm>

<http://www.christian-thinktank.com/fabprof4.html>

 

I hope that all this helps.  With respect, and In Christ,

Brian Lucero

 

 

Subject:

        Re: 4th one

   Date:

        Sun, 04 Sep 2005 03:32:59 +0000

   From:

        "David Mohammadi" <xdave1003@hotmail.com>

     To:

        brian@lucerofamily.com

 

 

 

 

Ok, everything is cleared up.  Let me take a look at the next prophecy to

bring up.