6-02-03
Dear
Michael,
I have read through your last email to me several times noting many things to respond with to the conclusions that you make. In the first few days after receiving your email, I already had written up the whole thing, scribbling all over my printed out copy. Time did not permit me to respond right away, and now finally I am back to it. As I re-read over your email and my previous comments written all over it, I decided that I’m not going to write all my responses to every sentence that I have commented on in my first fun through. I see it most expedient to just recap on the main part of you argument, then restate what I think is flawed in your argument.
You
have very well used a combination of verses from the Quran and the hadiths to
counter many verses that I use from other parts of the Quran. In your dissertation it seems that you have
admitted a few things that I believe are key in our discussion, and that are
even contradictory to some of your previous emails - in the spirit of intention
to refute the immediate points of controversy, your overall argument has been
hurt, for sometimes it seems you want to argue both sides of the coin. I will cite a few quotes to show this.
To
first note, I do not believe that the Qur’an is God’s Word in the first
place. So whether or not the final
conclusion seems to point that the Qur’an does not endorse the Bible as God’s
authoritative Word in the earth today, whether from the doing of abrogation or
just plain flawed transmission, it does not affect the foundation I stand
upon. For I believe that the Qur’an is
wrong is many other places already, so being wrong about the Bible is
expected. However, the whole point of
starting this discussion was that despite my reservations about how untruthful
the Qur’an is, I do believe that it endorses the Bible. Again, in failing to prove my stance, there
would be no consequence to me, for I do not submit to the Qur’an’s authority in
the first place. However, it is my
understanding that you are a Muslim, and that if you fail in substantiating
your stance, there is a great consequence affecting your faith and all that you
stand upon. In your reply would you
please give me a summary of what you believe, if a Muslim or not, and what you
hold as sacred and essential for entrance into paradise, and finally what the
consequences would be in your life if the Quran proves to be supporting the
Bible’s continual authority in the earth.
I am asking for this because when we make certain confessions according
to our beliefs, and our beliefs are proved to not be accurate, then our
confessions have to change. However, if
confessions are not made openly, then it is hard to make sure someone’s
confessions are re-conformed to them.
In essence, they do not change even if they are proven wrong.
On
with my response to your email. I will
now highlight some important statements that you said in this last email.
1- [ True, God’s words will never change, but
what if someone writes something and claims it’s from God? ]
2- [ 2.79 Therefore woe be unto those who write
the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah,"
that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their
hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
This verse has been discussed before, and
I know your stance on it. In this light
I offer you a challenge. Please bring
me a proof from the Quran or Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad which limit the
meaning of this verse to the example you provided as follows:
“it does not say that those who write actually alter God's
existing word, but that they have made new words. This is also
known from history where the undevout Jews in Arabia made up targums to sell to
people while saying it was from God.” ]
3- [ However, the Quran only tells Muslims to
believe in what was revealed to Jesus.
It does not mention any revelation to his followers. Therefor God’s Word is in the Bible, but the
Bible is not necessarily God’s Word. ]
4 - [ I am merely demonstrating that the
according to the Quran Muslims must believe that God’s Message was revealed to
other prophets before Muhammad.
However, they are not required to follow those books, due to them being
mixed with false statements, as demonstrated above, and because of the
existence of the Quran, which abrogates the previous revelations. ]
5 - [
The Quran supercedes all previous revelation, whether corrupted or
not. ]
6 - [ Yes,
this shows that the truth of the earlier scriptures is still intact, but, as
described earlier, it has been mixed with words, which are not from God. ]
7- [
Yes, Muslims are commanded to believe in previous scriptures, but as
mentioned earlier, they are not required to act on them, they have been
abrogated. ]
8 - [ No
Muslim rejects the previous revelations of God. It is made clear that the new one abrogates the old, and the
followers of Muhammad will not even be asked about what the previous
generations did. ]
9 - [ The rest of the conclusions you’ve drawn
need to be re-evaluated. Please re-read
the rest of this letter, and consider the things I’ve written. ]
10
- [ 002.101. And when there came to them an apostle from God,
confirming what
was with them, a party of the people of the Book
threw away the Book of God
behind their backs, as if (it had been something)
they did not know!
003.187. And remember God took a covenant from the
People of the Book, to
make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide
it; but they threw it
away behind their backs, and purchased with it some
miserable gain! And vile
was the bargain they made!
002.059. But those who did wrong changed the word
which had been told them
for another saying, and We sent down upon the
evil-doers wrath from heaven
for their evil-doing.
002.079. Therefore woe be unto those who write the
Scripture with their
hands and then say, "This is from Allah,"
that they may purchase a small
gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands
have written, and woe
unto them for that they earn thereby.
002.140. Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and
Isaac, and Jacob, and the
tribes were Jews or Christians ? Say: Do ye know
best, or doth Allah ? And
who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony
which he hath received
from Allah ? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.
003.078. And lo! there is a party of them who
distort the Scripture with
their tongues, that ye may think that what they say
is from the Scripture,
when it is not from the Scripture. And they say: It
is from Allah, when it
is not from Allah; and they speak a lie concerning
Allah knowingly. ]
11.
- [ Therefore, whether the Bible has been altered or not, is really
irrelevant. ]
12.
- [ (Surah 6;38) "Nothing have we
omitted from the Book, and they all shall be
gathered to their Lord in the
end." (This is right after the unbelievers ask
why a sign has not been sent down.
This is the response, saying that there has
already been a sign, the previous
revelations, that we have already sent down,
this should confirm the new Book, the
Koran.).
Actually, this is refers to a different book all
together. This called the Book of
Decree, which is Allah’s Book. The
Revelations we get are just a part of this Book, which was written before
creation. It contains information about
everything in the whole universe in detail.
Read the following verses and statements of the Prophet, and I think
you’ll get the idea. ]
13. - [ The Bible and the Quran are pretty long books, but they can’t possibly contain every single fact of every aspect of creation down to the atom. These verses are referring to Allah’s book of decrees, which remains with Him, hidden from our knowledge. Here we see that the Quran is but a part of this Greater Book, which is kept hidden. ]
14. - [
In addition to
this Book of Decrees which is with Allah, there are books written for every
good and bad deed performed. These two
books also seem to be part of Allah’s book, which contains everything. They are mentioned separately by name in the
following two verses, and described further in other verses. ]
In numerations 1 and 2, you are affirming that God’s
Words won’t change, however, that people may write things and add to the true
text. In numeration 3 you implicitly
say that God’s Word is there, but that not necessarily all of it is God’s. In numeration 6 you blatantly come out and
say it plainly, that God’s Word is still in tact, but that it has been
mixed. This statement in numeration 6
is in response to my emails trying to convince you that God’s Word can’t
change. So you affirmed, but put a
stipulation on it, that people can write other things into the text.
However, according to our conversations through
email, the verses that you use to try to convince me of the Bible’s
‘inaccuracy’ and ‘irrelevancy’ have to do with TAKING AWAY from God’s
Word. To read what you gave as evidence
for your argument to show that we shouldn’t follow the Bible any more, read
numeration 10. But what summarizes
those scriptures is this: “threw away
the Book of God” ; “but they threw it
away behind their backs” ; “changed the word which had been told them”
; “distort the Scripture” .
These phrases hardly support what you told me before, that God’s word
can’t change, as in numeration 1, and that it is still in tact, as in
numeration 6. These say that God’s Word
can be TAKEN away from. You said that
people could only ADD to it, but it is ALL still there. In fact, it seems you were trying to argue
for the moment, for you are contradicting your overall argument. You can’t have it both ways.
But of course this contradiction doesn’t phase you,
for whether the Bible is still in tact or not, it does not matter – for you
leave yourself a way out, namely that summarized in numerations 5, 7, 8, and
the last part of 4, which say that even if the Bible is still all true, it has
been abrogated, and no Muslim has to worry any more about it, they just have to
adhere to the Qur’an, as numeration 11 says: “Therefore, whether the Bible has
been altered or not, is really irrelevant”.
Moving further, in your last email to me you very
well convinced me that some of the verses that I used were not talking
specifically about the Bible, but about the big Book. – see numerations 12, 13, and 14. You made a good argument that the Bible, the Qur’an, and other
books were all part of this big book.
However, even though you took away some of my arguing scriptures for the
Bilbe, you made my argument stronger.
For you admitted that the verses I used to say that the Bible hasn’t changed
are really talking about the big Book.
That’s great, for if the Bible is part of this big Book, as you confess,
and that this big Book can’t change, then whatever is specifically contained in
this big Book can’t change either.
Logic says that if the big Book doesn’t change, then the little book,
the Bible, doesn’t change either, for it is contained in the big one. Thank you.
Moving on, you say that if the Bible hasn’t been
changed (as now you have to believe concretely and not as a ‘what if’), then
the abrogation factor swipes away the need for the Bible. Abrogation by definition means replacement
with something different, something new.
I argued before from the Bible that God’s eternal laws don’t
change. That God will always be God,
and any deviation from that truth will prove the purporter to be a
heretic. In the same way, I said that
God’s plan for salvation did not, and cannot change. As prophecied ever since Adam’s time, there would be a lamb of
God, to be sacrificed for our sins. And
ETERNAL life would be the effect. After
this, there would need not be any more attempt for new means of salvation, for
it is an ETERNAL concept. Jesus’
sacrifice is ETERNAL, and therefore cannot be abrogated. If one argues that the New Testament is
corrupted, then even the Old Testament screams out the truth of a sacrificed
messiah, and one would have to then discredit EVERY book of the Old Testament
as being true, but corrupted for prophecying God’s ETERNAL salvation plan. See
<www.angelfire.com/realm2/truth/messiah.html
>. You have to prove all these
prophecies wrong then. They are so
explicit, I’m sure you’ll be convinced if you read through them with an open
heart. I challenge you.
That is an argument from the Bible. Now from the Qur’an I will show that your
abrogation factor doesn’t hold water when trying to say that the Bible has been
changed. Abrogation can’t occur if
what’s being abrogated is the same as what it will be replaced with. The Qur’an blatantly says that there are no
new revelations. See for yourself:
2.136 You say:
“We believe in Allah, and in all the revelation given to us, and to
Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus,
and to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and
another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam).”
2.285 The Messenger believes in what has been
revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believes in Allah, His
angels, His books, and His Messengers.
“We make no distinction between one or another of His Messengers.”
3.84 Say:
“We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was
revealed to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books)
given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no
distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will
(in Islam).
23.68 Do they not ponder over the Word (of Allah),
or has anything (new) come to them that did not come to their fathers of old?
41.43
Nothing
is said to you that was not said to the Messengers before you: that your Lord
has at his command (all) Forgiveness as well as a most Grievous penalty.
I won’t go further with this. For whether the Qur’an contradicts itself or
not in this aspect makes no difference to me.
But, when it contradicts the Bible, the previous revelations of Allah,
then we see the problem.
To sum up your argument, I’ll just quote numeration
11: “Therefore, whether the Bible has
been altered or not, is really irrelevant”.
Let me emphatically disagree:
‘Whether God’s Word changes’ makes all the difference in the world.
We have surely talked about the alteration of the
Bible for a long time now, arguing back and forth about different
scriptures. It seems to me that over
the whole course of this subject, you have contradicted yourself a few, but
very crucial, times, as shown above.
One thing that stands out is how you stop short of assessing the whole
of my points. Numeration 9 stands out
as evidence: “The rest of the conclusions you’ve drawn
need to be re-evaluated. Please re-read
the rest of this letter, and consider the things I’ve written.” The rest of my conclusions in that email were historical
attestation of the preservation of the Bible.
They were not my conclusions, but scholars’. It is history, not subjective opinion. Logic says that if Muhummed supported the Bible during his time,
then the Bible today is supported by Muhummed, according to the time period of
his life, and when the oldest manuscripts of the Bible date back to. Whether or not the Qur’an supports the
Bible, these conclusions don’t change – the Bible during Muhummed’s time is the
same as today.
Dismiss the accuracy of the Bible as an
argument. It has been argued over and
over and over again. To read more about
Deedat’s claims, and defending arguments, go here: < http://www.tektonics.org/
> and here: < http://www.the-good-way.com/eng/article/a02.htm
>. However, you do not need to show
me all these little things about the Bible to prove that it is not still
accurate or wholely from God. Listen. All you have to do is prove that Jesus Christ
did not resurrect from the dead. My
whole faith is dependant on this one fact, this solid foundation. If Jesus did not die, or if he did and did
not rise from the dead, then Christianity has no foundation.
1 Cor. 15:12-19
Now if
Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that
there is no resurrection of the dead? [13] But if there be no resurrection of
the dead, then is Christ not risen: [14] And if Christ be not risen, then is
our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. [15] Yea, and we are found
false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up
Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. [16] For if the
dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: [17] And if Christ be not raised,
your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. [18] Then they also which are
fallen asleep in Christ are perished. [19] If in this life only we have hope in
Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
This is one simple subject to focus on to convince
Christians. I know that many Muslim
scholars talk about Jesus’ resurrection, or lack thereof, so there is plenty of
material out there for you to research.
Show me that Christ did not resurrect, and you’ll convince me not to be
a Christian. It’s that simple. But I hope you will also take up the
challenge: that if you find that Christ
did indeed die and rise from the dead, you will become a Christian. May God’s truth abound to the converting of
souls. God bless you in your search.
In
Christ,
Brian
Lucero
