Ahmed,

Home: <https://www.angelfire.com/realm2/truth/islam.htm>

Ahmed T wrote:

In the Name of God, the Infinitely Merciful and Infinitely Forgiving. Peace and Blessings upon the Messengers of God.

Firstly, I want to pray to God to protect me from all evils, the evils of the Satan, and the evils of what is within ourselves. I believe, if we are on the Straight Path of Guidance, it is ONLY from God, and only God is worthy of praise, not us. If it was not for God guiding us, we would have all been astray from this Path.

My Dear Friend and Brother Brian,

I want to thank you, again, for continuing this conversation. I truly want this to be a communication, and NOT a debate. I am sure that you would agree that either one of us accepting or rejecting other's thoughts will not gain us a dollar nor costs us a dollar. :-)

It should be about sincerely understanding the point of view of the other, and striving for please the One Almighty Lord.

I think after this list, we will, God willing, find out that we are talking about the same God.The same God that some Call “Khuda”, some call “Dios”, som call “Father”, some call “Goth”, some “God”, some “Allah”, Some “Jehovah”, some “Eloh”, ….How we describe God is different.Just like the same teacher can be described differently by different students, as you can imagine.

Now to your questions of:

What do we know about God?

As you had put it, the “Identity of God”

Let me start with an analogy, knowing that analogies are imperfect.

The analogy of our knowledge (our intellect) about God is like the knowledge that the computer has about the computer programmer (operator).

The computers are very smart machines; they can do many tasks, calculations, spell-check… very efficiently and effectively. But when it comes to their knowledge about the operator, they only know what they have been told by the operator.

Our intellect, like the computer, can do many tasks…, but when it comes to the knowledge of God, we only knows what God has told us. Nothing beyond that and it is not appropriate for us to make conjectures to what God is or could be.Having said that, I want to make a brief list of what God has told us about Himself. Please chose one and delte the other option.

God is:

One and only One.There are no other gods (things worthy of worship) but the One God. Only the One God is worthy of worship.

Infinitely Loving (beyond our imagination)

Infinitely Forgiving (beyond our imagination)

Infinitely Compassionate and Kind (beyond our imagination)

Infinitely Powerful.God can do anything and everything that God wants to do.

God is Infinitely knowledgeable (has the COMPLETE knowledge of past, present and future, nothing is beyond the knowledge of God).God has the ABSOLUTE knowledge of everything. God does not forget, All-Knowing (Omniscience). God even knows when a leaf falls off a tree (among zillion of leaves in the world).

All Seeing, (nothing hides from the sight of God, nothing is beyond God’s knowledge)

All Hearing (nothing hides from the hearing of God, nothing is beyond God’s hearing)

Infinitely Just.God has the ultimate Justice.

Infinitely Just Judge, the punishment of God comes from the Justice of God.

Infinitely Glorious

Infinitely Majestic

There is nothing comparable to God.God is different than the creation of God.

God is Eternal.God was not born, and God does not die.Has no beginning and no ending. God was there before everything, and will Remain after all things.

God is Eternal, has no beginning therefore God was not born, and does not give birth.

Infinite and Absolute Owner and LORD of the entire universe, and the Day of Judgment (Lore of Here and Hereafter).

God is Good and Beautiful, the sources of all good and all beauty.

Infinitely Great

Infinitely Mighty (Almighty) and Infinitely Powerful.

God is more powerful than ALL things/being (more powerful than all things and being together) that we can imagine.As compare to God’s power, there are no other powers.No one/ nothing is stronger than God. Infinitely Strong and powerful.All the power belongs to God alone, what others have is what God has given it to them.

Infinitely Wise and knowledgeable.

Infinitely Perfect, without shortcomings and without blemishes

Completely and ABSOLUTELY flawless

Completely and Absolutely Self-Sufficient and Self-Subsisting

God does not need anything.God created all things. God was before all things. God can be there without all things (including: time, place, air, food, …., thing that we need)

God is the Lord and Owner of all things, All things are under God’s command(willingly or unwillingly).The earth, the heavens, the universes, EVERYTHING belongs to God, and is under the command of God.

God is the compeller. Others’ will cannot stop God’s will.Whatever God wills it happens.

God is the Guide

God is immutable, unchanging

God is unseen by humans.

God is the giver of life and death, and all in between (illness, and cure, happiness and difficult trials…)

God is the Most High

The Most Exalted, Worthy of All Praise

God is Holy.

God is the source of all Peace (here and hereafter)

God is the Creator of All things. Created everything out of nothing.

God is the Designer, Fashioner, and Maker, of all the universes.

God is Alive and never dies.

God is the Most Glorious and Majestic

This just my humanly and imperfect attempt to explain what we know about God.I want to reiterate that God is so Great and Infinite that if all the oceans were to be ink and all the trees to be made pens, even then it would not be enough to write the words of our Lord.

I pray to God to forgive me for my shortocmings and guide us all to the Straight Path and cloer to His pleasure.

Thank you for the opportunity to exchange thoughts with you.

Look forward to your reply.

With brotherly love and sincerity.

Brian Lucero <luce0016@tc.umn.edu> wrote:

Dear Ahmed,

I am pleased to hear that you desire this communication to be one of freindship and not of debate. I fully concur that that is the best way for each of us to learn about God's truth.

About each and all of your questions, I can give a solid "AGREE".

So where do we go from here?

In Christ,
Brian Lucero

Ahmed T <ahmedt5000@yahoo.com> wrote:

Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 11:29:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ahmed T <ahmedt5000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Brian
To: Brian Lucero <luce0016@tc.umn.edu>

Hi Brian!!!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Thanks for the email. I was very pleasantly surprised to read that you agreed with each and all. This is wonderful; God willing this should make it easier to better understand each other.

I was expecting that you would agree with 95%, but 100% is even better. :-) <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" />

Could you please re-review the list to see if there is anything that you disagree with?

If you do not, we will go from there.

Ahmed,

  Hey there.  I totally forgot about our conversation.  Thanks for emailing me.

I think that what happened is that I agreed to it, but forgot to email you about

it.  So, as time when on I forgot that I didn't email you but thought I had

already done it and so was just waiting from a response back from you.   Sorry

for all the confusion.   I guess all this is a sign that, yes, my summer is very

crazy busy.  But I still really would like to keep our conversation going.

  So from last email, you wanted to make sure that I was 100% in agreement, even

though I had already said yes.  I still am at that 100% level, depending on

whether our definitions for the same terms are the same.  I'm guessing that that

fact might play a role in the future when discussing the specific points of our

different beliefs.   Now that we got that straight, I will wait for you to make

the next step or enquiry.

  Hope your summer is going as well as mine.

  In Christ, and with deep respect,

Brian Lucero

Subject:	Re: Dear Brian
Date:	Fri, 18 Nov 2005 18:32:48 -0800 (PST)
From:	Ahmed T <ahmedt5000@yahoo.com>
To:	Brian Lucero <luce0016@tc.umn.edu>

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

I start with the name of God; ALL Praise and thanks is due to God alone, and Peace and blessings of God be upon all of God’s messengers, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad.

I want to pray to God to protect us from all evils, the evils of the Satan, and the evils of what is within ourselves. I believe, if we are on the Straight Path of Guidance, it is ONLY from God, and only God is worthy of praise, not us. If it was not for God guiding us, we would have all been astray from this Path.

It has been awhile since our last communication.I am thankful to God for this opportunity to be in communication with you.I pray that good comes out of this communication for both of us.

Also, thank you for being a courteous partner at this conversation.As for my part, it is just that, a conversation.Not a debate.

I pray that we are not like the people who argued and debated with the messengers of God (including Jesus, peace be upon him), and rejected faith, despite the clear evidence.

Again, I am pleasantly surprised that you agreed 100% with my attempt to explain some of what we know about God. (Please see below)

However, I am a little puzzled that how can one agree 100% with the list and still believe that Jesus, peace be upon him, is God and should be worshiped.

In numerous places in today’s Bible, Jesus (PBUH) has been quoted as saying that God ALONE should be worshipped, and that is exactly what I would like to say.

Let’s worship God alone.NO one, other than God is worthy of worship.

Muhammad (PBUH) should NOT be worshiped.

Jesus (PBUH) should NOT be worshiped.

Abraham (PBUH) should NOT be worshiped.

Adam (PBUH) should NOT be worshiped.

Only and only God should be worshiped.

Like I had said in my very first email, I have an impression of you as a sincere and intelligent person, wanting to be closer to God.So with all sincerity, without arrogance, or disrespect, I would hate to see you go to hell for worshiping others in addition to God.

a. Firstly, to the best of my knowledge, there is no CLEAR and EXPILICIT (emphasize) verse or evidence from Jesus (PBUH) saying that “I am God” or to “worship me”.

b. Most of the evidence points out that our beloved Jesus (PBUH) gives all credit to God, and asks all to worship God alone.



Mark 12:29	The first of all the commandments is, Hear O Israel, The Lord our God is one Lord.

	Jesus said unto her, ... I ascend unto my father, and your father, and to my God, and your God.
John 20:17


Luke 4:8	Get thee behind me Satan, for it is written, You shall worship the Lord thy God and Him only shall you serve.



John 4:23	But the hour cometh, and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the father in spirit and in truth; for the father seeks such to worship him.



Luke 6:12	And it came to pass in those days that he went out into a mountain to pray and continued all night in prayer to God.



Matthew 26:39	And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying: O my father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless not as I will but as you will.




John 4:2	Jesus said unto her, …worship the Father.

c. From the list below: We agreed that God is Most High, and Most Powerful, and there is nothing more powerful and stronger than God.



Jesus is inferior to God
Jesus is inferior in might and will to God	Matthew 28:18	All power is given unto me in the heavens and the earth.	"...given unto me" signifies that power was not rightfully his to begin with.One does not "give" a thing to a person who already has it.You do not "give" your money to someone who already has your money.




	John 14:28	… My father is greater than I	Jesus admits that God is greater than Jesus

d. We agreed that God is ALL KNOWING



Jesus is inferior in knowledge to God	Mark 13:31-32	Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.	1.The words are everlasting because God "gave" them to Jesus (John 17:7 above).
	Mark 13:32
			*2.God is all-knowing.If Jesus is God, then he* *must be all-knowing*.In this verse, the day that heaven and earth shall pass away is a secret that is kept hidden from mankind, angels, and Jesus, himself.No one knows of it except God, Himself.
	Also
	Matt 24:36

e. We agreed that God is Infinitely Glorious and Infinitely Majestic and Infinitely Great Infinitely Mighty (Almighty) and Infinitely Powerful and that God is the Greatest.

InJohn 14:28 Jesus (P) says that God is Greater than him



Inferior in will	John 5:30	I can of mine own self do nothing	Jesus say he does ONLY what God wants and wills
Jesus is inferior in nature to God	John 14:28	You have heard how I said to you I go away and come [again] unto you.If you loved me, you would rejoice, because I said: I go unto my father, for my father is greater than I.	1.If Jesus is God, how does he "go unto" himself? 2.The father is superior to Jesus. This is so clear that God is "greater" than Jesus If one is greater, how can they be the same?
Matthew 19:16-17		And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?And he said to him, "Why do you call me good?There is none good but one, that is God. But if you will enter into life, then keep the Commandments.	God is the Greatest. Jesus said he was not the Greatest. 1.The questioner is asking about salvation, which is the central theme of Christian doctrine. 2.Jesus rejects the praise of the questioner, and redirects praise to God, exclusively. 3.Jesus answers the man telling him to follow the commandments and makes no mention to his own sacrifice or vitiation of sin through his own blood. is superior to the will of Jesus. 4.Jesus testimony does not suffice as true.


	(Luke 18:20)	And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?And he said to him, "Why do you call me good?There is none good but one, that is God. But if you will enter into life, then keep the commandments. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do




	John 5:19



	Acts 2:24	God raised up Jesus
	Mark 14:36	Jesus prayed to God to save him from death	If he was the same as God, why could he save himself

F. We agreed that God is Lord of the world.

God is the Lord and Owner of all things, All things are under God’s command (willingly or unwillingly).The earth, the heavens, the universes, EVERYTHING belongs to God, and is under the command of God.

These verses emphasize that Jesus (P) is the servant of God, as was Muhammad (P).



Jesus is God's servant	Matthew 12:18	Behold My servant, whom I have chosen.	Is a servant equal to his MASTER?
Jesus is God's servant
"	Acts 3:13	The God of Abraham, and of Isaac… hath glorified His servant Jesus.	John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

	Acts 3:26	God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first
"	Acts 4:27	For of a truth against Thy holy servant Jesus whom You have anointed.

	Act 4:30	through the name of thy holy servant Jesus."

G. We agreed that God is Eternal, has no beginning and no end. God was NOT created.



God is Eternal	Prov 8:22	The Lord created me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.	But Jesus was CREATED (Today's Engl. Ver.)

"	John 8:42	If God were your father, you would love me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came of myself, but he sent me.	Jesus was sent by God.He didn't come of his own choosing, it was a matter decided upon by God. He does NOT say he is God, but "came from God"

My Dear brother,

I think the evidence is clear that Jesus is not God. He has always referred to God and given ALL credit to God.

So should we.

I warn you of a day that you will be standing in front of God, and He will ask you why did you Not worship God alone? Why did you make partners for God?

My dear brother, I ask you to worship God alone.This is exactly what our beloved Jesus (P) asked us to do.

I pray to God to guide us all closer to the Path of worship and submission to Him alone.

Respectfully,

Ahmed.

p.s. If you would like, we can get together and speak in person.

From: Brian Lucero <brian.lucero@gmail.com>

To: Ahmed T <ahmedt5000@yahoo.com>

Date: Dec 22, 2005 5:23 AM

Subject: Jesus is God

Ahmed,

I hope that the following will be of help to you. Please note and remind me of any discrepancy that you see or anything that remains unclear. You began your email with a plea for me not to worship anyone save God, no partners, no anything other. Note the syllogism:

Jesus is God

Only God is to be worshiped.

Therefore worshipping Jesus is worshipping ONLY God.

What this means is that by believing Jesus is God is not say that we are worshiping partners with God and certainly not ascribing worship to other than God.

a. No explicit verses of Jesus saying "I am God".

b. Jesus asks us to worship God alone.

c. Jesus is inferior: John 14:28 - "My Father is greater than I."

d. Inferior in knowledge: Matt. 24:36 - "of the day...knoweth no man....neither the son..."

e. Inferior will: John 5:30 - "I can of mine own self do nothing."

f. Servant is not equal: Matt. 12:18 - "behold my servant."
g. Jesus not eternal: John 8:42 - "came from God."

Before I address specifically these above seven points, which I am glad to do, I am curious of a few things. What do you say when:

i. Jesus says that only God is good and worship him only and then elsewhere says that only he himself is good.

ii. God says that no one will share his glory, and then Jesus says that he shared the glory with God before the world was.

iii. God says he will be the only Judge of good and evil and come at the end of the age, and Jesus says that ALL judgment is his and that he will be the one coming at the end of the age.

iv. God says no one knows all things but himself, yet Jesus says that everything that God knows he shows unto him.

v. God says that only God shall get honor, yet Jesus says that all men shall honor him as much as they honor God.

vi. etc., etc.

The evidence that you used to show that Jesus was not God were reasonings of inequality. I am using the exact say method above, reasonings of equality, to show that Jesus has to be God (and by using another list I can show reasonings of inequality of why Jesus cannot be only man). Therefore, it is obvious that the reasonings you employed initially are NOT enough to prove that Jesus is not God, for our sides are equally weighted. (Actually, if we go on to exhaust our lists, your list will have less than a handful of supporting phrases of Jesus while mine will be many dozen long. So in reality, my supporting evidence and list of quotes is much longer, probably meaning that the few quotes that are in your list are explainable as merely subtle confusions of language usage not originally intended as you are taking them. But I will just say it is equal for now for the sake of the continuing argument.)

As a simple answer now, let me offer the following short explanation of how your list of inferiorities may well be explained. Jesus was a man: he was born, he got hungry, he bled, has limited physical strength, limited mental endurance, emotional endurance, and everything else characteristic of being human. God is almighty in strength, endurance, knowledge, and everything perfect. Just this simple comparison you could have use from the beginning to show why you don't think Jesus can be God without wasting effort quoting from the Bible. It is obvious that Jesus' human limitations discount him from being God's equal in every category. Period.

But that is not the end of the subject. If Jesus really was God who decided to "empty Himself, and took upon Him the form of a servant", then that is his prerogative to take upon himself the limitations of being human by CHOICE. So, Jesus, then, is God in nature and essence, and therefore is equal with God in all categories (hence my list). Yet because God decided to live a life of a human on earth as a sign and promise to humanity as Jesus, then accordingly, Jesus being human in form and fashion in everything humanly characteristic, is unequal with God in all categories (hence your list, however small it may be).

But this is not just some manufactured explanation for Christians to pull themselves out of the illogical pit of contradiction. It is clearly spelled out in the Bible and explained by Jesus himself, and all throughout the books of the old prophets, that God would make this choice. The source of this explanation makes it all the more, therefore, plausible. But I wouldn't blame a Muslim who jumps into the holy book of another religion who finds a dual list of contradictions because he doesn't understand the obvious message of the Bible as a whole, the purpose for God coming to earth.

Here are few links that might help as well. The first is a list of articles of many different people and angles. In that list is gave one from one of the first christian scholars in history, Augustine as he explains how Jesus was inferior. The last link is an article that I think is very well organized, helping to explain the different views of God from an Islamic and Christian perspective and clearly identifying stumbling stones for Muslims in undertanding the Christian perspective.

<http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/trinity.html> trinity on monergism

<http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-03/npnf1-03-07.htm#P245_85950> augustine

<http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/trinity.htm> muslims

I also added the attachment of a verse by verse explanation that I wrote to another Muslim a year or so ago when he asked about similar verses. Hope this helps. :)

For the Glory of Christ,

Brian Lucero

From: Ahmed T <ahmedt5000@yahoo.com>

To: brian.lucero@gmail.com, Brian Lucero <luce0016@tc.umn.edu>

Date: Feb 8, 2006 6:49 PM

Subject: Re: Jesus is God

In the Name of God, the Infinitely Loving, Infinitely Forgiving

Peace and Blessings upon God’s messengers, from Adam to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses to Jesus to Muhammad.

I seek God’s protection from the Accursed Satan, and from the evils of my own self.

I attest that whoever God Guides, no one can lead astray, and whoever God allows to be led astray, no one can guide.

God has said in His last revelation[1], O’ you who believe, be conciouncious of your Lord and Die NOT in state other than complete submission to THE ONE GOD.

Dear Brian,

Let me start with reiterating and re-emphasizing a few of the points that I had mentioned in my previous emails.

a. Like I had mentioned before, I would hate to see you go to hell, despite all you do.

b. It was my respect for you and a sense of wanting the best for you that I initiated this discussion[2].

c. Thus, I mean no insult, no put downs, no attacks and no disrespect.

d. As you probably know, I love Jesus peace be upon him, a great deal. I want to be among the first on his side, when he returns.

e. I have noticed a zeal and passion in you to be at the service of God, so I wanted to make sure that energy, time and effort is not wasted.

f. I am not a scholar, nor a debater, nor love to argue with people, nor have extra time to waste.[3] This type discussion with you is very special, as I don’t go around discussing this with everyone.

g. You don’t have to tell me even if you agree with me. I really want to make sure it is NOT about my ego.

h. God knows best, but I may not be more than a speck of dust in this great universe that God has created.

i. God knows best, Maybe (JUST MAYBE), God has put this in my heart that I should bring you this message. Perhaps because of that zeal and passion that you have for God. Perhaps as test of your faith in God vs. tradition and culture[4].

j. I do NOT see this discussion as a game nor as a debate. I have no such a feeling that I should “win this debate”. The only winner is the one that God loves and grants Paradise, and the only loser the one that reject God’s message and gets burnt in Hellfire.

k. I anticipate that our contact and discussion is temporary. After a few emails, perhaps, we will stop sending emails. But what counts is how we will be judged by the Almighty God in this world and in the Day of Judgment (Hereafter).

l. Our life and efforts should be for the sake of God, Almighty, and not some mere mortal.

m. So I want to urge myself and you to imagine the Day of Judgment, standing in front of God and being asked “what did you do when you received my message?”

n. My faith will not benefit you and your faith will not benefit me.

o. If I reject, it will not harm you; if you reject, it will not harm me.

p. Of course God has given you and me our intellect and this limited “free will”. We have a choice to make. The same type of choice that people before us had to make

q. Some of these people rejected the message of God and the messengers of God. They rejected Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace be upon them all. Some rejected them because the message was not in accordance to what they were used to (their culture, their traditions and the teachings that they had received).

r. You and I have the same choice.

s. With this, I pray to God to help both of us see the Truth and follow the Truth. May God guide me to the Straight Path and May God guide you to the Straight Path.

Please see table below. You may want to cut and paste it to a work documents, for easier reading.

Your email comments	My comments	Your reply
Ahmed, I hope that the following will be of help to you. Please note and remind me of any discrepancy that you see or anything that remains unclear. You began your email with a plea for me not to worship anyone save God, no partners, no anything other.	Thank you. I certainly will. I tell this to myself and the most beloved people to me, NOT to worship anyone or anything but the ONE God.	Feel free to expand this, if you wish to use this format
Note the syllogism: A Jesus is God B Only God is to be worshiped. C Therefore worshipping Jesus is worshipping ONLY God. What this means is that by believing Jesus is God is not say that we are worshiping partners with God and certainly not ascribing worship to other than God.	Your syllogism: A = B, B=C, therefore A=C Of course, I disagree with A & C. As you mentioned, there is CLEAR PROOF from the Bible to prove point A.
a. No explicit verses of Jesus saying "I am God". b. Jesus asks us to worship God alone. c. Jesus is inferior: John 14:28 - "My Father is greater than I." d. Inferior in knowledge: Matt. 24:36 - "of the day...knoweth no man....neither the son..." e. Inferior will: John 5:30 - "I can of mine own self do nothing." f. Servant is not equal: Matt. 12:18 - "behold my servant." g. Jesus not eternal: John 8:42 - "came from God."	a-g is very clear, and it makes sense.
Before I address specifically these above seven points, which I am glad to do.	I am looking forward to read your comments on these.
I am curious of a few things. What do you say when: i. Jesus says that only God is good and worship him only and then elsewhere says that only he himself is good. ii. God says that no one will share his glory, and then Jesus says that he shared the glory with God before the world was. iii. God says he will be the only Judge of good and evil and come at the end of the age, and Jesus says that ALL judgment is his and that he will be the one coming at the end of the age. iv. God says no one knows all things but himself, yet Jesus says that everything that God knows he shows unto him. v. God says that only God shall get honor, yet Jesus says that all men shall honor him as much as they honor God. vi. etc., etc.	I guess the question is about what Jesus (p) has BEEN REPORTED TO HAVE SAID, BASED ON THE BIBLE. The reason that I used the verses from the Bible is because, I would think, as a Christian you believe in the Bible and I am sure it means a great deal to you. Perhaps it makes more sense to YOU to see the arguments based on the Bible, vs. the Qur’an. I will, God willing, plan to go in more depth on these points in future emails. Considering that you wrote: “the few quotes that are in your list are explainable as merely subtle confusions of language usage not originally intended as you are taking them.”, here a few questions for you? Do you, then, believe that every word in the Bible is the “EXACT WORD OF GOD”? vs. “word of God” written and paraphrased by humans? Which one do you think is correct? When II Samuel 10:18 says 700 chariots and 40,000 horseman and I Chronicles 19:18 says 7,000 men, and 40,000 footman, which one do you think is correct? When II Kings 8:26 says Ahaziah was “two and twenty” years and II Chronicles 22:2 says “forty and two years, when Ahaziah begin to reign, which one do you think is correct? When II Kings 24:8 say Jehoiachim was 18 and ruled for 3 months, and II Chronicles 36:9 say he was 8 years old and ruled for 3 months and ten days, which one do you think is correct? When II Samuel 23:8 says Tachmonites “lift up his spear against 800” and I Chronicles 11:11 says “Hachmonite” say “against 300”, which one do you think is correct?	I would really like to read you comments on the questions a and b.
The evidence that you used to show that Jesus was not God were reasonings of inequality. I am using the exact say method above, reasonings of equality, to show that Jesus has to be God (and by using another list I can show reasonings of inequality of why Jesus cannot be only man).	The point that I was trying make is that there are plenty of verses in the Bible that shows “inequality”. As someone who had not read the Bible, until a few years ago, I would have guessed that every verse in the Bible, about Jesus, would show “his equality with God.” Which to my surprise it does not. Again, to my surprise, there is NOT a single CLEAR verse that says: “Jesus is God” or “Worship Jesus”.
Therefore, it is obvious that the reasonings you employed initially are NOT enough to prove that Jesus is not God, for our sides are equally weighted. (Actually, if we go on to exhaust our lists, your list will have less than a handful of supporting phrases of Jesus while mine will be many dozen long. So in reality, my supporting evidence and list of quotes is much longer, probably meaning that the few quotes that are in your list are explainable as merely subtle confusions of language usage not originally intended as you are taking them. But I will just say it is equal for now for the sake of the continuing argument.)	I will avoid arguing about technicalities, but there are more than a handful of points. So I guess we could use your syllogism here: God is All Powerful Jesus was not All Powerful Therefore, Jesus is NOT God. And so on… You can fill in the rest, by using the list of Attributes of God that I had given you. You can place them in a. and b. and come up with the same conclusion.
As a simple answer now, let me offer the following short explanation of how your list of inferiorities may well be explained. Jesus was a man: he was born, he got hungry, he bled, has limited physical strength, limited mental endurance, emotional endurance, and everything else characteristic of being human. God is almighty in strength, endurance, knowledge, and everything perfect. Just this simple comparison you could have use from the beginning to show why you don't think Jesus can be God without wasting effort quoting from the Bible. It is obvious that Jesus' human limitations discount him from being God's equal in every category. Period.	I completely agree. I think agreeing on this should help us end this discussion. In your words: “ It is obvious that Jesus' human limitations discount him from being God's equal in every category. Period.” I agree. PERIOD. Again, using your syllogism: God is All Knowing Jesus was not All Knowing Therefore, Jesus is not God Jesus ate and drank, and thus defecated and urinated God is far Above these human qualities Therefore Jesus was NOT God. Like you mentioned there is a huge number of points like this.
But that is not the end of the subject. If Jesus really was God who decided to "empty Himself, and took upon Him the form of a servant", then that is his prerogative to take upon himself the limitations of being human by CHOICE. So, Jesus, then, is God in nature and essence, and therefore is equal with God in all categories (hence my list). Yet because God decided to live a life of a human on earth as a sign and promise to humanity as Jesus, then accordingly, Jesus being human in form and fashion in everything humanly characteristic, is unequal with God in all categories (hence your list, however small it may be).	Considering that you put quotes around this, you probably have heard/ read this from someone else. So I would ask you to think about this one more time: - God deciding to “empty Himself” !!!!! Do you have a single quote from Jesus (p) that says that God decided to “empty Himself”? God is far Holy than to “empty Himself”. God is much Superior than what people ascribe to God. As God says in the Qur’an: “Glorified be your Lord, the Lord of Majesty and Glory from what they ascribe to Him. And Peace be upon His messengers, and All Praise is due to the Lord of the worlds.” Do have a single quote from Jesus that “God took upon Him the form of a servant”? Is the servant equal to the master? Is there a Quote from God somewhere about this? If not, then where did this argument come from? I think it is more important that you have an answer for this for your sake then to give the answer to me. In the grand scheme of things, it does not really matter what type of answer you give me. On the Day of Judgment, when God asks you Brian, What proof did you have to say these things about God? What authority did you have to claim these? What would you say? If worshiping God is the central mission of a human, And you say Jesus is God, wouldn’t you expect more CLEAR verses telling you to worship Jesus? Or wouldn’t you expect to see more verses telling you that “Jesus is God”, or Jesus (P) saying it himself. After all, that would have been his mission, wouldn’t it? Please ask yourself, does it (HONESTLY, AND SINCERELY), make sense, using your intellect and God has give you? Would you feel comfortable facing the Al-Mighty God with these arguments? Again, you don’t have to tell me, as long as you feel comfortable facing God with this.
But this is not just some manufactured explanation for Christians to pull themselves out of the illogical pit of contradiction. It is clearly spelled out in the Bible and explained by Jesus himself, and all throughout the books of the old prophets, that God would make this choice. The source of this explanation makes it all the more, therefore, plausible. But I wouldn't blame a Muslim who jumps into the holy book of another religion who finds a dual list of contradictions because he doesn't understand the obvious message of the Bible as a whole, the purpose for God coming to earth.	Please share with me the “clearly spelled out in the Bible and explained by Jesus himself” on the questions I listed above, if you wish. If you don’t, no big deal. Please also explain “the purpose for God coming to earth’
Here are few links that might help as well. The first is a list of articles of many different people and angles. In that list is gave one from one of the first christian scholars in history, Augustine as he explains how Jesus was inferior. The last link is an article that I think is very well organized, helping to explain the different views of God from an Islamic and Christian perspective and clearly identifying stumbling stones for Muslims in undertanding the Christian perspective. <http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/trinity.html> trinity on monergism <http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-03/npnf1-03-07.htm#P245_85950> augustine <http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/trinity.htm> muslims	Thanks for the links I will review them in the future, if time permits.
	God willing, In future emails, we can discuss your email to Ali.
	Brian, like in mentioned in my remarks in the beginning, it does not affect me how/what you believe. My dear friend, for the sake of your soul, approach this carefully. Again, I have no intention of debating with you, or arguing nor disrespecting you. I want the best for you here and in hereafter. Please refer back to my points (a-r) above. May God Guide both of closer to the Straight Path, to the Path that leads to His pleasure and His Paradise. Amen. Sincerely,

From: Brian Lucero <brian.lucero@gmail.com>

To: Ahmed T <ahmedt5000@yahoo.com>

Date: Feb 9, 2006 9:57 AM

Subject: Re: Jesus is God

Ahmed,

Thank you for the email. I too pray that God would open both our eyes, mine included, and that all glory would be His alone.

Although I was dissapointed with the amount of interaction I received from your replies, I am glad that we are able to continue our discussion in hopes of targeting the baseline problems. As a note, I did not send you those links at the bottom of the last email just at a whim. The article explaining the difficulty for Muslims to understand what really is trying to be said by the Christians was one in particular that I hoped you would have read. I look forward to hearing your thoughts after reading it. With respect to your replies, I was taken aback by the degree of magnitude that you appealed to pathos, as oppposed to logos, in your rhetoric. I assure you: I am trying to be sincere and honest, by God's grace. And I put a lot of prayer and thought into replying to your concerns. And I pray that you do the same, not only with sincerety, but with a thoughful mind. I will try to be as clear as I can in the following response. Forgive me if I have failed at that in past emails. Onward.

I am curious at how you are trying to pursue this issue. Let me recap as I see it:

I) You gave me verse from the Bible that seem to show Jesus not being God (appealing to inequality of attributes).

II) I responded with:

a) showing how Jesus is God (appealing to equality of attributes). and,

b) showing how it obvious that Jesus as human is inferior, but Jesus as God is equal.

What surprised me is that you asked me to find verses in the Bible to show you why we believe Jesus to be the One and Only God of creation, and then when I did, you go right back around and ask me if I believe all of the Bible is God's word. So I'm curious Ahmed, what do you want to discuss in these conversations? Here are some options:

1. Jesus is God according to the current Bible.

2. Jesus is God according to the current Qur'an.

3. The Bible is reliable today.

4. etc.

If you want, we can later move on to discuss whether the scriptures I use from the Bible, to show how Jesus is God, are actually corrupt and unreliable. I would love to talk about that issue. But I think it is wiser to finish our current discusion, proving or disproving the assertion in point (1) directely above. Please give me a clear decision on which point above we should pursue.

Remember, it doesn't hurt you in the long run to admit that point (1) is in fact correct. For all you need to do after admitting that the Bible does indeed show Jesus as God, is to then turn around and show why we cannot trust the Bible.

If you decide to continue with me in discussing [Jesus is God according to the current Bible], I will be happy to respond to your requests for me to:

A. Show you here it says God did indeed emptied Himself, by choice, to take on the characteristics of a human.

B. Explain to you "the purpose for God coming to earth".

C. Show you where in the Bible it is spelled out that God would make this choice of becoming a servant to fulfill his purpose.

I really look forward to talking with you some more. And, sincerely, I thank you for taking out some of your busy schedule to talk with me. It really mean a lot when you say that you care that I don't go to hell. Hope to hear from you soon.

With respect, and for the glory of God alone,

Brian Lucero

p.s. I urge you to please read through the whole of this article < http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/trinity.htm >. It should not take you more than 15 minutes, and I think it will help us to understand each other better when we seem to make absurd statements according to the other person. It really will help you to be able to understand how to explain to me in a way better for me to understand. Thanks.

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