Guests on this program were:
Dennis Prager
Whoopi Goldberg
GENE SIMMONS
Christopher Hitchens
Panel Discussion
Ladies and gentlemen, the star of "Politically Incorrect" --
Bill Maher!
[ Applause ]
Bill: How you doin'? Thank you very much.
All right, let us meet our panel.
He is a best-selling author and a nationally syndicated radio talk show host out of KRLA right here in Los Angeles --
Dennis Prager.
Dennis, where are ya?
[ Cheers and applause ]
Thank you for coming.
He is a celebrated journalist, magazine editor and the author of the book "The Trial of Henry Kissinger" --
Christopher Hitchens, ladies and gentlemen.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Mr. H?
Christopher: I might have known.
Bill: He is a movie and TV producer and the silver-tongued frontman of the number one tour band in the world --
from KISS, Gene Simmons, ladies and gentlemen.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Gene? Powerful man.
All right.
I haven't forgotten about the old Jew.
All right, her new movie is "Kingdom Come," and her kingdom is "Hollywood Squares" --
Whoopi Goldberg.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Hello, darling.
Whoopi: Thank you.
Bill: Okay.
All right.
What a night.
What a panel, what a show.
Man: Yeah!
Bill: Okay.
I wish we could just lollygag here, but we have important issues to get to.
Your book, Chris, always --
you know, you are one of the great writers, I have to say.
I don't agree with everything in here.
Christopher: You're not supposed to.
Bill: Right.
It's about Henry Kissinger, and, you know, you're not the first to say that he is responsible for a lot of the atrocities in Indochina.
And of course, with the Bob Kerrey situation all in the news, I've been hearing nothing but Vietnam the last couple of weeks.
And I have to tell you, it bothers me that there is this conventional wisdom that is in every article I hear, every article I read, every news report I hear about, "Vietnam was a wasted war.
We should never have gone." I have said many times on this show, I thought it was a necessary war.
It was very nice for Ronald Reagan --
an actor playing the president --
to go over to the Berlin Wall and say, "Tear down that wall!" That is not what won the Cold War.
That was a wonderful money shot.
Christopher: That's true.
Bill: It was a good photo op.
What won the Cold War was we being --
demonstrating to the bullies of the world that we would put ourselves on the line and spend lives.
The Vietnam War didn't have to happen in Vietnam, but it had to happen somewhere.
Gene: I think the problem --
sorry to interject.
I think the problem --
I saw the Brit --
the respectful Brit.
But what I was gonna say was, I think there's a problem with media.
Media basically warps all things.
I believe that media polarized America.
I was in college at that point, and so there was this kind of ranting and raving back and forth between the far left and the far right.
"Is this a politically motivated war?"
Bill: Right.
Christopher: "Is it a military --
" Who cares? The idea is, pragmatically speaking, when are you gonna stop the guy with the hammer and the sickle when he's knockin' on your door?
Bill: Right.
Gene: However, let's be pragmatic about this.
I mean --
and real.
America didn't just enter the war because we were the good guys.
There were other issues.
There was oil and all that stuff.
But I do agree with the right --
although I don't perceive myself as that --
with, "You've got to stamp your foot down."
Bill: Yeah.
Christopher: It's always on whom.
[ Applause ]
Well, on whom will you --
on who is this foot to be stamped down? You say lives have to be lost to prove your point --
our point.
Well, just take the case of Senator Kerrey.
That's 13 old ladies and women and children.
Did their lives have to be lost to make this point that the United States --
Bill: Well, I mean, the Russian --
Christopher: No, I don't think so.
By 1968, Robert McNamara and Lyndon Johnson and all the people running the war had all said to their friends of the Senate, their friends of the CIA and the FBI, "This war is over.
It's lost.
We should never have gotten into it.
But we can't break that news to the American people yet."
Bill: Right.
Christopher: Now, how is that gonna sound to people whose sons were lost in Vietnam after the war had been given up on by the political class? How is that gonna sound?
Dennis: Those are legitimate questions.
Christopher: They are very --
it's nice of you to say so, but I haven't got my trousers off yet.
Excuse me.
[ Laughter ]
Dennis: Is that a British term that I'm not familiar with?
Whoopi: Should I move over?
[ Laughter ]
Christopher: As I was saying to Mr. Prager, not yet.
Not yet.
Whoopi: Okay, all right.
Christopher: Not yet.
I'm grateful for him for telling me what I already know --
that these are legitimate questions.
In 1968, there was a peace agreement being made in Paris by Lyndon Johnson and the U.S. government --
the elective government --
to begin an orderly withdrawal from what was obviously a fiasco, if not a crime, in Vietnam.
The Nixon campaign went to the South Vietnamese military leadership and said, "If you sabotage those talks and pull out of them and wreck the 1968 elections --
sabotage, undermine them, which would actually happen --
then we'll give you a better deal.
We'll continue the war on your terms for four more years." Look at the Kerrey stuff.
Look at the time.
Look at the place.
The time is '69, the war is being extended illegally and secretly as a result of a secret deal involving Nixon and Kissinger.
Gene: What do you mean by "illegally?" What war --
[ Talking over one another ]
Christopher: I'm so glad you asked.
Whoopi: Wait, wait, before you answer that --
before you answer that, I have a --
I just want to interject so people don't think I'm asleep.
[ Laughter ]
Christopher: Or a potted plant.
Whoopi: Or a potted plant.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Just to answer your --
Christopher: Ms. Goldberg is not a potted plant.
Whoopi: No, I'm not.
Christopher: She's not.
Whoopi: Not now.
To answer what I think was your question, with my opinion, is, no, we knew before we went in that this war was unwinnable.
The French had been there forever.
Bill: Yeah.
Whoopi: And one of the reasons --
Gene: And the Japanese.
Whoopi: --
that we went in was because we did so miserably in the Korean War that we needed to --
I feel we needed to sort of bring ourselves back up to what America was supposed to be championing.
And instead of paying attention, they went in and wasted lives and all these --
Bill: See, but --
Whoopi: You know, I got family on the wall.
These are wasted lives.
Bill: Wait a second.
They're not wasted.
Sometimes wasted lives are unwasted lives.
In Korea, they fought a battle called Hill 53.
And when it was over, they said, "It had no strategic value.
Why did we fight it?" And the guy said, "That's the point, it had no strategic value." We had to show them we were willing to do that.
Whoopi: You know what? I'm sorry --
Bill: The Russians lost 20 million people in World War II --
Whoopi: Unless you have --
for me, okay? Unless you have a damn good reason to be somewhere, don't ask my --
Dennis: Well, what's a damn good reason?
Whoopi: Excuse me, let me finish my point.
Don't ask my brother to go and do it.
Christopher: Absolutely.
Whoopi: Don't ask my brother --
don't ask my brother to go and fight unless you can explain --
Dennis: Why isn't it --
[ Talking over one another ]
Dennis: --
good reason.
Whoopi: Bob McNamara's book was very, very clear about what went on.
And basically, Mr. McNamara said, "Look, we knew it was over, and we did nothing about it." That's wasted lives to me.
Dennis: Why isn't it a damn good reason --
Whoopi: That's what I'm talking about whenever I say "Wasted lives."
[ Applause ]
That's what I mean.
Christopher: Good for you.
Dennis: Why is fighting Communism not a damn good reason? Fighting Nazism was a damn good reason to sacrifice your brothers.
Why was fighting Communism morally different?
Whoopi: I'll tell you.
Because to me, I'm not sure that Communism is necessarily a bad thing.
Bill: Come on.
Gene: Well, hold on.
I think --
wait.
[ Talking over one another ]
Whoopi: Let me --
you have to --
I've said it before.
Dennis: But that's a remarkable statement.
Whoopi: Well, it shouldn't be, because if you look at --
Dennis: They have murdered more people than the Nazis did.
Whoopi: If you look at the bottom line of what Communism is, it is you and I working together for you and i, working together for --
Bill: That's the theory.
Whoopi: Okay, that's what I'm saying.
Bill: That's not what we were fighting.
Whoopi: Well, how do we know what we were fighting, Bill?
Bill: Because we knew what was --
oh, come on.
Whoopi: How do we know --
Bill: 'Cause we didn't know what --
Whoopi: Bill, when did we get into World War II? Did we get in while we knew the Jews were being eaten up by --
ooh, I'm sorry, I almost said the "F" word.
[ Laughter ]
Bill: You can say the "F" word.
Whoopi: When we knew that the Jews were beaten up by Adolf Hitler? No.
It took us years till we knew what the hell was going on.
Well, why did it take so long? I mean, I'm not sure that I agree, because Joe McCarthy --
was he fighting Communism? What was he really doing?
Dennis: Wait, wait, wait.
Whoopi: No, no, but we were talking about Communism.
Dennis: Joe McCarthy was a demagogue.
That has nothing to do with the idea of fighting Communism --
Whoopi: But you know what?
Dennis: --
which is as noble as fighting fascism.
Christopher: Could I just --
I mean, I don't want to --
Whoopi: No, go ahead.
Christopher: I don't want to disown you or disagree with you, but --
Whoopi: No, that's all right.
It wouldn't hurt.
Christopher: I would add this, too.
Because what you said before shouldn't be forgotten.
You're quite right.
If your family has names on that wall, you're entitled to say you were lied to about it, and they were not just wasted.
But I think they were murdered by the state.
Gene: Oh, that's not fair.
Christopher: But it's the least you can say.
Bill: I mean --
Christopher: But wait.
You look it up, and you won't believe it, but the government of the day --
Mr. Dean Rusk --
Mr. McNamara said, "We are in Vietnam to stop the Chinese Communists from taking over Indochina." That's what they actually said.
You don't disagree, I'm pleased to see.
What could Mr. Nixon and Mr. Kissinger do? They flew to Beijing to have a photo op with --
a love-in --
with Mao Tse-tung as though we're out of the war.
I'm not going to hear from these people that they were actually Communists.
Bill: But Mao Tse-tung.
There's another guy who killed millions and millions of people.
You speak as if the world is a vacuum.
We have to counteract the worst people in the world.
Gene: I tell you, Bill, I have to disagree with you.
Bill: Right.
I mean, but it's just reality.
Gene: Here's the question.
Let's say Dean Rusk is bad.
Caspar Weinberger is talking out of his butt.
Everybody's talking different things.
You can't get involved in the detail.
Christopher: I'm not so sure.
Gene: I beg your pardon?
Christopher: I think the details matter, actually.
Gene: Yeah, but the overall idea.
Christopher: Then they wouldn't have threw their arms around him.
Gene: Let's say they're not, and let's say what it's all about is oil, okay?
Christopher: Not in Indochina, it isn't.
Gene: Okay.
So it's about some other idea.
It's not about politics.
At the end of the day, if we weren't going to step up and do something physically there, I ask you --
I ask all of us --
I'm neither Democrat or Republican.
I have issues with both those guys.
I think everybody's full of hot air.
So the question for all of us is --
if not there, where? That's the question for you.
Bill: I gotta take a break.
This is interesting, but I have to take a commercial.
[ Applause ]
Bill: All right.
What's that?
Christopher: We're not going to leave Vietnam just like that, are we?
Bill: We're not going to leave Vietnam? That was our original problem.
We couldn't leave Vietnam.
You want to say again?
Christopher: No.
I have an entry strategy.
Bill: An entry strategy?
Christopher: A term I hope you don't borrow from me.
No, he challenged me, and I should say it.
Gene: I was just asking.
Christopher: What should not be done against communism? Nelson Mandela was arrested on information given to the police by American Central Intelligence Agency because they were fighting Communism.
Are you for that? Is anything done against Communism okay with you, would be my question?
[ Talking over one another ]
The war in Vietnam was a war fought by the Vietnamese for independence against the Japanese, against the French and the United States government.
They made a hideous mistake by lying repeatedly to certain people of inheriting that terrible war.
And they threw away the lives of many, many Americans.
They killed probably 3 million Vietnamese for nothing at all.
And Bob Kerrey was ordered to throw away people.
Bill: But it wasn't for nothing at all.
That's where you're wrong.
Whoopi: What was it for?
Bill: It was so that Reagan could stand there and say, "Tear down this wall." And at that point, the Russians could go, "You know what? The Americans have proved to us that they are willing to stand up to the bully." If we had not fought Vietnam, Reagan couldn't have had his photo op, and this Cold War would never have ended.
Christopher: Who's the bully in the village when Bob Kerrey and his friends shoot 13 civilians? Who's the bully there? Under order.
It was a free fire zone.
[ Talking over one another ]
Gene: What about the women in Dresden, were killed by Allied bombers?
Christopher: Do not profane the struggle against Naziism.
Do not profane it, I repeat, by comparing it to the action of someone who acts like a Nazi and rounds up civilians and kills them.
[ Talking over one another ]
Whoopi: Here's the thing.
Here's the [ bleep ] about the whole thing.
When you send people to war, when you make young men soldiers --
these are ordinary cats coming out of neighborhoods, coming out of nice suburbs, and they're put into extraordinary situations.
I'm afraid that I feel that Bob Kerrey probably did what countless people did in Vietnam --
probably panicked and killed a whole lot of people.
Wait, wait, wait.
[ Talking over one another ]
Bill: I have a question for you.
Let me ask you --
there is evil in the world, you would agree? There is evil and evil men?
Whoopi: Yeah.
Christopher: Henry Kissinger.
I've written a book about him.
I'm glad you mentioned it.
Bill: How do you counteract evil? How do you stop evil if not with greater force?
[ Talking over one another ]
Miss Goldberg, answer this question.
Whoopi: I'm sorry, Bill, would you please repeat the question?
[ Cheers and applause ]
Bill: If there is evil in the world, naturally nobody wants to send their sons to go and fight it.
But how else do you counteract evil? How else do you stop it?
Whoopi: But whose evil are we talking about, Bill?
Bill: The Communist empire was evil, and it was bent on world domination.
At a certain point --
Whoopi: Not like us.
Christopher: Not in Indochina.
[ Talking over one another ]
Whoopi: I'm not saying that's a bad thing.
I only posed a question.
We also would like to run the world.
Gene: What country does everybody try to sneak across the border to? "I'm going to France!"
Whoopi: But that illustrates my point.
Gene: Where are you gonna run?
Bill: What is carpet bombing?
[ Talking over one another ]
Christopher: You can't escape it.
You can't escape mass murder from the air.
And if anything you say is true, ask yourself this --
if anything you say is true, why is Henry Kissinger now taking money from the Chinese Communists for their right to shoot their students --
Bill: What are we talking about?
[ Talking over one another ]
What do you think it was like to live under a Communist regime before Communism came to an end?
Whoopi: I'll tell you, in part, what it was like, because I lived in East Germany.
Bill: You lived in East Germany?
Whoopi: Yes, I did.
Yes, I did.
And so when I say to you the things that I say, it comes from a different place.
Do I think that Communism as it's worked by men works, no.
Do I think that democracy often works in certain societies? No.
We're seeing Russia implode 'cause it's not working.
We haven't given it enough time.
Bill: But it's not democracy.
Whoopi: Well, but they think it is, and we said it is.
And now it's altering.
There are changes happening in Cuba which everyone is happy for.
We're still smoking our Cuban cigars, are we not?
Bill: Wait.
What year did you live in East Germany?
Whoopi: I lived in East Germany in 1979 then 1980 and 1981, and we snuck in.
Bill: And what was that like for a sister?
Whoopi: It was very, very interesting, 'cause it was all artists.
We were living with artists.
And so they would talk to me and say, "Listen, can you bring, the next time you come, can you bring this, this, this and this." We came, and next year we brought what we could.
We hung out, and we did theater.
We did theater with these East German artists who are, you know, trying to figure out --
as youth always does --
because they're the children of the people who got chopped off.
Bill: But did you not find yourself to be in a suffocating society where people were spied upon? Where people did not have freedom? Where people lived in a gray, morbid world.
Whoopi: Bill, let me tell you something about how it works.
If you've never known anything else, which a lot of the kids that we were working with did, 'cause we were young, then it seems perfectly normal.
Dennis: Would you say that about slavery?
Whoopi: Would I say --
if you worked.
Dennis: How do you defend a system because people didn't know something better?
Whoopi: Well, then, how do you defend it?
Dennis: Because, first of all, we do know something better.
Gene: Because there is a higher good, whether you know it exists or not.
Whoopi: Yes, but if you don't know, then your life, your everyday life --
Dennis: But they did know.
They did know.
They had TV.
That's why there was a wall built.
Whoopi: I can't answer, because I have five guys asking me a question.
Your question was, "How was it?" I said, for me, it was interesting because these guys did not act as though they were repressed and oppressed.
They did not move on an everyday level that way.
And when you ask me about slavery and would I defend slavery, you know --
in 1955, in Montgomery, Alabama --
I made a movie recently in the last couple years called "Long Walk Home." And when I went to make this movie, my attitude was, "If I had been here then, those people wouldn't have done this to me, because I would have stood up and told them." You know, these ladies who walked the six miles that way and six miles that way said to me, "You know what? We couldn't have done that, because they would have come in the House and hung the kids.
So, we did it differently.
We did it this way." People fight it differently.
So when you ask me about the oppression and was it --
no, it wasn't.
The way people were fighting what they didn't like in East Germany was through art.
Bill: I gotta make a little money for capitalism right now.
[ Applause ]
Announcer: Join us tomorrow when our guests will be --
actor/comedian Billy Connolly, actress Lolita Davidovich, and author Sandra Tsing Loh.
[ Applause ]
Bill: All right.
We've used up --
[ Talking over one another ]
Hello.
Yeah, that's okay.
[ Talking over one another ]
Dennis: Can I ask a quick question? I'm just --
this is totally --
it has nothing to do with Vietnam.
And I'm very curious, would you just applaud if you believe that you're being hurt by secondhand smoke now?
[ Cheers and applause ]
I don't believe it.
I give up.
Christopher: Isn't that great?
Bill: You're not just wrong, you're stupid.
A thousand noxious fumes in the air in America.
America causes cancer.
Christopher: They don't have to stay.
And if they don't care for it --
[ Talking over one another ]
Whoopi: I have many evils.
I also smoke.
Bill: Right.
This is sort of analogous to Vietnam.
Gene: What's the issue on the table, Uncle Bill?
Bill: We're going to take another commercial.
[ Cheers and applause ]
Bill: All right.
Tomorrow --
Billy Connolly, Lolita Davidovich and Sandra Tsing Loh.
Smoke 'em if you got 'em, folks.