Alternate Biofuels - Alcohol
Threads - Not Enough Alcohol
Brian Lloyd replied:
Isn't there a natural law involving conservation of stupidity? If you
eliminate stupidity in one place it shows up elsewhere, right?
Don't feel bad, there seem to be more than a few who think that E85
is going to be the panacea for the US gasoline price woes. Yeah, we
are going to turn a large proportion of our arable land into a fuel
source for our SUVs. Oh, and don't forget that the energy per litre
is only about 60% of that for gasoline. (I am sure someone can give
me the exact number but I am pretty sure I am in the ballpark.) I
suppose we can send you some if you like.
Ha ha, funny. People thinking that E10 is going to have any impact on
petrol prices.
Garry Dalrymple commented:
What, turn arable land in the US into a fuel source for 4WDs?
Surely not while there is still some Amazonian Rain forest left to clear!
Brian Lloyd answered:
It is easier to turn corn into fuel than random Amazonian biomass.
Once we run out of corn I am sure the Hummers will start sucking up
the rain forest.
Toby Fiander responded:
An efficient process for production of alcohol would probably not involve
fermention of agricultural crops, but that will probably do for now.
One of the difficulties with alcohol production facility is that it needs
feedstock from a large area around it. If the feedstock comes from too far
away, the energy efficiency is reduced. The facility also needs to be large
enough that there are economies of scale with respect to its own energy use.
Too big and it is inefficient - too small and it is inefficient. Of course,
unless you can monopolise the product from farming over the area near the
facility, it is always going to be inefficient anyway.
At the moment, 'Straya (Australia) only has small-scale (inefficient)
production and unless a strategic policy is put in place 'Straya is probably
never going to have efficient alcohol production.
But don't hold your breath waiting for commonsense to prevail. This is
'Straya.
and in reply to a query from Peter Macinnis:
Toby, can't disagree, but can you put any sort of dimensions on the
problem? Just curious . . .
No, and I think from the lack of any answers to correspondence from the
participants in the recent enquiry into biofuels, it is beyond their
capability or interest, or both.
I have thought that this was the principal calculation required before
setting up a biofuel operation, but according to the Rural Press news thingo
that arrives every morning, there has been more than one opened in
Queensland recently, notably in Dalby(?).
I would be interested in undertaking calculations on the Back of This
Envelope we have here, but not today. I am fighting alligators, as well as
a nasty disease that causes me to cough when I sneeze and to sneeze when I
cough. Neither aids the accuracy of my sometimes wayward tiping.
M'colleague, Jenny Nixon, whom some know from picnics, spoke with my cousin,
Clayton, this morning, with a view to choosing music for my funeral, then
rang me to tell me what they had decided... truly touching (!!) but I am not
dead yet, I am only conducting a feasibility study.
Perer Macinnis answered:
Toby Fiander wrote:
Toby, can't disagree, but can you put any sort of dimensions on the
problem? Just curious . . .
No, and I think from the lack of any answers to correspondence from the
participants in the recent enquiry into biofuels, it is beyond their
capability or interest, or both.
A pity -- I would be interested to see how one analyses a problem like that.
Can anybody shed light on where you start? I know that school
principals have several bench mark sizes (pupil counts) for schools to
run efficiently. Even a small increase over one of the magic numbers
brings a huge increase in staff needs, but once you are wearing that,
you can bulk up to the next magic number at small salary cost, assuming
you have the rooms. I think these have been arrived at by experience
and careful calculation of what lies close ahead.
I would be interested in undertaking calculations on the Back of This
Envelope we have here, but not today. I am fighting alligators, as well
as a nasty disease that causes me to cough when I sneeze and to sneeze
when I cough. Neither aids the accuracy of my sometimes wayward tiping.
And who, pray tell, is making these alligations? Get well soon, I have
no time to attend a funeral before the end of the year, so I would take
it as a favour if you would delay it at least that far.
In the interim, until you are interred, don't push the envelope uphill
while changing horses of a different colour.
Brian Lloyd noted:
An efficient process for production of alcohol would probably not
involve fermention of agricultural crops, but that will probably do
for now.
Sawgrass seems to be a possible crop with the potential for much
higher yields.
Has anyone seen a reaction that that would allow a fuel cell to
extract all the energy from alcohol (methanol or ethanol)? That
strikes me as an interesting application of technology.
One of the difficulties with alcohol production facility is that it
needs feedstock from a large area around it. If the feedstock
comes from too far away, the energy efficiency is reduced. The
facility also needs to be large enough that there are economies of
scale with respect to its own energy use. Too big and it is
inefficient - too small and it is inefficient. Of course, unless
you can monopolise the product from farming over the area near the
facility, it is always going to be inefficient anyway.
That is par for the course. And the decisions for how to build will
be decided politically rather than technically and economically thus
rendering the result useless, for the most part. If the net energy
gain is greater than 1 it will be by sheer luck.
At the moment, 'Straya (Australia) only has small-scale
(inefficient) production and unless a strategic policy is put in
place 'Straya is probably never going to have efficient alcohol
production.
In the world of security and terrorism it is called "security
theatre," i.e. the things that are done by the government are done in
order to *appear* to be helpful, not to actually accomplish anything.
The recent events in the UK are clear examples of this. The potential
bombing was stopped, not by the "security" at the airport, but rather
by intelligence gathering that had nothing to do with the security
theatre of x-ray machines and removing one's shoes. I got a chuckle
out of deploying the national guard to stomp around in fatigues and
carrying their M-16s. Like they are somehow going to magically detect
explosives? Like they are going to start shooting if a wacko in the
middle of a group of tourist decides to brandish a knife or a gun?
So we can probably call all of this "energy theatre". There will be
much talking and much, "demonstrating just how important the energy
issue is and your government is working to solve this problem for
YOU!" When it becomes cheaper to burn alcohol than petroleum, we will
burn alcohol instead of petroleum. The only way I am going to pay
more for energy is if I can derive some other value from it -- like
play. PV panels, inverters, batteries, alternators, stirling engines,
etc., are all toys to me. I am willing to spend money on them for the
toy value. I just use the "energy crisis" to justify my actions and
to feel all superior and altruistic. ;-)
But don't hold your breath waiting for commonsense to prevail.
This is 'Straya.
But it has nothing to do with the Land of Oz really. As my sig line
says, 85% of the world (and that includes both the public and private
sectors) would rather die than think. You think things are any
different over here?
and:
Toby Fiander wrote:
Toby, can't disagree, but can you put any sort of dimensions on
the problem? Just curious . . .
No, and I think from the lack of any answers to correspondence
from the participants in the recent enquiry into biofuels, it is
beyond their capability or interest, or both.
A pity -- I would be interested to see how one analyses a problem
like that.
Can anybody shed light on where you start? I know that school
principals have several bench mark sizes (pupil counts) for schools
to run efficiently. Even a small increase over one of the magic
numbers brings a huge increase in staff needs, but once you are
wearing that, you can bulk up to the next magic number at small
salary cost, assuming you have the rooms. I think these have been
arrived at by experience and careful calculation of what lies close
ahead.
I can hazard a guess or two. The first would be to determine the
quantity of alcohol that would come from a given type of biomass. The
grasses; e.g. corn, cane, saw; seem to produce the most fermentable
carbohydrate. You figure out what the yield is from those. Figure out
how much energy is needed to transport a kilo of biomass to the
fermenter. Figure out how much energy is needed to produce a kilo of
alcohol. Figure out how much energy is needed to dispose of the waste
products. (Good for animal silage?) If the energy in is less than or
equal to the energy in a kilo of xOH, it is a net loss and a waste of
time.
Somewhere ... darn, I can't find it. A biweekly aviation newspaper
here in the US, "GA News", had an excellent series of articles on
ethanol as fuel for reciprocating aircraft engines a month or so
back. It had the "back of the napkin" analysis of energy gain from
using xOH. The author approached it from a couple of different angles
and ended up reporting his results as net KCal/Kg. The numbers
differed depending on his approach but all were quite small.
This is a problem for general aviation as we are currently locked
into aviation gasoline (avgas). The problems are manifold but the
main ones are:
1. Avgas uses tetraethyl lead (TEL) as an antiknock compound. It is
the last motor fuel to do so and there remains only one plant
producing TEL, and it is in the UK.
2. The alcohols tend to be corrosive to fuel system components. I was
able to burn auto fuel (known to pilots as mogas) in several of my
airplanes but the universal advent of E10 has eliminated that as a
potential fuel replacement.
I love to fly (and to teach people to fly -- my other teaching job)
and fear that the change in energy economics is going to kill general
aviation. Since I love flying as much as I love physics and
engineering, this is very significant to me. I am currently flying
around in an airplane that only gets about 9 nm/gallon (4.4 KM/L) and
the rise in price from an average of $2/gal to $4.50/gal has made
this form of travel very expensive, almost to the point of causing me
to stop flying this particular airplane (unless I can fill it with
5-6 people at which point it becomes competitive with the airlines
again). It will probably end up relegated to training, where I can
get someone else to foot the cost.
There have been tests to use alcohol in aircraft engines but the low
energy density puts a serious limitation on aircraft range, eroding
safety margins. The corrosive nature of the fuel also means that we
must design fuel systems with new and relatively untested (in
aviation use) components. This pretty much precludes retrofitting
existing aircraft. Add to that the low energy gain of alcohol as a
fuel and I just don't see it being an economical replacement.
There have been tremendous advances in producing high power:weight
diesel engines fueled by jet fuel. The increased energy density and
greatly increased efficiency makes this *very* attractive (at least
to me). (My back of the napkin analysis for diesel engines shows I
can gain a three-fold efficiency advantage over the twin-engine
aircraft I am now flying and gain 50 kts of speed in the bargain.)
And one of the other possibilities in the back of my mind is to
produce a synthetic fuel oil that will burn effectively in diesel
engines.
One technique gaining popularity here with people who own diesel-
powered vehicles is to add a tank heated by the engine coolant and
then filling it with filtered waste cooking oil. The oil has a
tendency to congeal at room temperature but when heated to 180F (82C)
it flows very nicely. Diesel engines seem happy to burn it and the
exhaust scent is reminiscent of chips, not entirely undesirable --
unless one is on a diet. One starts the engine on standard petroleum-
based diesel fuel but once the engine comes up to temperature and
heats the waste oil, one switches and runs from the waste oil. Since
most restaurants have to pay for waste oil disposal, people willing
to pick up the oil and use it in their vehicles have had a pretty
good time of it. That won't last long.
But we could also extract oil from the corn from which we are
producing ethanol. Would that improve the yield until the processes
become cost- and energy-effective?
I would be interested in undertaking calculations on the Back of
This Envelope we have here, but not today. I am fighting
alligators, as well as a nasty disease that causes me to cough
when I sneeze and to sneeze when I cough. Neither aids the
accuracy of my sometimes wayward tiping.
And who, pray tell, is making these alligations? Get well soon, I
have no time to attend a funeral before the end of the year, so I
would take it as a favour if you would delay it at least that far.
In the interim, until you are interred, don't push the envelope
uphill while changing horses of a different colour.
<Insert smart comment about chickens, barn doors, and horsepower here.>
Gerald Cairns observed:
Here is a good link for ethanol fuel cell. This is not new technology, just waiting to be properly exploited.
http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id30.html
Plus these from Google.
Ethanol Fuel Cell technology
Using
ethanol to make hydrogen for a fuel cell, you would get 60% efficiency
... In addition, methanol fuel cell vehicles cannot utilize ethanol. ...
running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id30.html - 66k - Cached - Similar pages
Fuel cells turn to alcohol (February 2004) - News - PhysicsWeb
Now,
the Minnesota-Patras team says that if ethanol was used to make
hydrogen for fuel cells, the process would be 60% efficient and the
ethanol would not ...
physicsweb.org/article/news/8/2/6 - 20k - Cached - Similar pages
Types - Direct Methanol Fuel Cells
Therefore,
some companies have embarked on developing a Direct Ethanol Fuel Cell
(DEFC). The performance of the DEFC is currently about half that of the
...
www.fctec.com/fctec_types_dmfc.asp - 8k - Cached - Similar pages
US
Department of Energy: Alternative Fuel News The Campaign for an
American Fuel: Powering Flex Fuel Vehicles with E85 ... including
biodiesel, electricity, ethanol, hydrogen, natural gas, and propane. ...
www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/ - 21k - Cached - Similar pages
Green
Car Congress: Ethanol Fuel Cell Intelligent Energy has successfully
completed trials of its stationary, ethanol-based fuel cell system. The
company is targeting distributed power ...
www.greencarcongress.com/2004/07/ethanol_fuel_ce.html - 18k - Cached - Similar pages
The
Hydrogen & Fuel Cell Investor Cellulose ethanol is an advanced new
transport fuel with a unique combination of attributes . . . Ethanol
& Fuel Cells: Converging Paths of Opportunity ...
www.h2fc.com/technology/hydrogen/sources.shtml - 20k - Cached - Similar pages
The
Future of Fuel Cells...solid, oxide, polymer, electrolyte ... Today
fuel cells are much in the news. Some say hydrogen will be widely used.
Others say methanol or ethanol is more appropriate. Even others say we
will be ...
www.benwiens.com/energy4.html - 62k - Cached - Similar pages
EETimes.com
- Ethanol fuel cells take aim at portables' power EE Times is the
online source of global news for the creators of technology.
www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010713S0075 - 67k - Cached - Similar pages
Fuel
Cells 2000 : Information Resources : Fuel Cell Library Ethanol and Fuel
Cells: Converging Paths of Opportunity - prepared by Jeffrey Bentley
and Robert Derby for the Renewable Fuels Association. September 2002.
...
www.fuelcells.org/info/fclib.html - 127k - Cached - Similar pages
Direct Ethanol Fuel Cell
Fuel
Cell Store.com is integrating and advancing the fuel cell industry, by
offering electrolysers, hydrogen storage systems, hydrogen energy
consulting, ...
www.fuelcellstore.com/item/596 - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
Brian Lloyd replied:
Thanks. I was under the impression that most (all?) of these fuel
cells needed to have their fuels processed to provide H2 to the cell
as they were basically hydrogen fuel cells. (But there's lots of H2
in most organic compounds.) Still, if one can achieve efficiencies
greater than that of an internal combustion engine, it is a net win.
