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Broccoli

Threads - Borocolli, Broccoli(I got sick of the typo)

Dr Karl has a Great Moments in Science on "The wonders of Broccoli"
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/broccoli.htm

On  3/3/2003, David Maddern wrote:

Some time ago ( about 10 years)I heard on the radio that broccoli, if it were a packaged food introduced now, would not pass regulatory scrutiny because it contains a toxin.

Does anyone know what they are talking about?

looking for Broccoli toxin in Google

http://www.medlean.com/ML_estrogenmetabolizers.html

said What is DIM?
DIM stands for Diindolyl methane, a dietary indole found in cruciferous vegetables. DIM occurs naturally within the cruciferous vegetable plant after crushing or chewing. Plant enzymes produce DIM from precursors called glucosinolates.

Could that be it?
Paul Williams replied:

All plants have defence mechanisms.  We have evolved to deal with many of these quite well.  I remember that the chemistry of the crucifers is complex.  And variable.

Broccoli and other crucifers contain many alkaloids/ glucosinolates and organo-sulphur chemicals.  I think that a liver in reasonable shape is all that is needed.  If these potential toxins were man made they would no doubt be banned.  Potatoes and most legumes would be gone and possibly tomatoes and strawberries as well.

My layman's view is that one should indulge freely in broccoli for the proven health benefits.

Chris no doubt will be a font of knowledge on this subject.
Peter Macinnis replied:
At 17:24 4/03/03 +1100, Charles wrote:
>A nunmber of Vegtables would no longer pass inspection for that
>reason.Potatoes,Yams etc are full of Poisons,Taros too.
There is a reply of mine out there in the ether somewhere, which points out that the LD50 for potatoes (via solanine) is of the order of 200 kg -- I seem to recall that 5 kg of spinach will do the job for half of us, and http://www.sra.dst.tx.us/srwmp/tcrp/state_of_the_basin/sabine_basin_currents/articles/2001/20010117_01.asp
 seems to bear this out:

Approximate lethal doses for naturally occurring toxins

                         The amount of caffeine in 100 cups of strong coffee
                         The amount of solanine in 100 - 400 pounds of potatoes
                         The amount of oxalic acid in 10 - 12 pounds of spinach or rhubarb
                         The amount of aspirin in 100 aspirin tablets
                         The amount of hydrogen cyanide in 4 pounds of lima beans

It takes fewer paracetamols, but not really a nice way to go . . .

Take a look at http://yarchive.net/food/food_toxins.html -- a great set of warnings to post to your favourite veggie list (implied pejorative not resiled from).

and in a further post:
>There is a reply of mine out there in the ether somewhere, which points out
>that the LD50 for potatoes (via solanine) is of the order of 200 kg -- I
<snip>
I then quoted:
>Approximate lethal doses for naturally occurring toxins
I should point out that LD50s are often given for humans, but they are in fact ALDs -- the 'A' generally given as "average" rather than "approximate", but it is always a guesstimate.  LD50s require experiments where prople are poisoned.  In one case in 1937, sulfanilamide was sold in diethylene glycol, and some 76 peeople died in the US -- some died after one fluid ounce, some survived after taking 10 fluid ounces.

Podargus added:

There seems to be an implication in the correspondence that broccoli and even brussels sprouts are edible.  This is patently not so.

A caring creator obviously decreed that they were meant for lower orders such as cabbage white butterflies.  For humans to consume them upsets this natural order, depriving the cabbage white of valuable food sources.

Robert Hawke, the noted champion of worker rights and sickies decreed that broccoli was not to be eaten by 'real men'.  Is broccoli part of army rations?  Do suicide bombers consume broccoli before moving on to paradise?  Of course not.

An exhaustive Google search did not find any evidence as to whether or not 'real women' can eat broccoli.

Now as for chokoes..........................
Paul Williams replied:
> There seems to be an implication in the correspondence that broccoli and
> even brussels sprouts are edible.  This is patently not so.
Quick and hot cooking in stir fries or minimal cooking in a microwave oven prevents the formation of pungent sulphurous smells. - light steaming is OK as well. Brussel sprouts can be sliced and added to favourite sauces or stir fries.
These ways of cooking also keep the colour and nutrition intact.  If this still repels - try with a cheesy sauce.
> A caring creator obviously decreed that they were meant for lower orders
> such as cabbage white butterflies.  For humans to consume them upsets this
> natural order, depriving the cabbage white of valuable food sources.

For those who mean to grow these for personal consumption, Baccilus thuringiensis does the trick on cabbage whites.
> Robert Hawke, the noted champion of worker rights and sickies decreed that
> broccoli was not to be eaten by 'real men'.  Is broccoli part of army
> rations?  Do suicide bombers consume broccoli before moving on to paradise?
> Of course not.
Hawke was a 'real' man?
> An exhaustive Google search did not find any evidence as to whether or not
> 'real women' can eat broccoli.
I will wisely let 'real' women speak for themselves.
> Now as for chokoes..........................
You shouldn't have mentioned the 'ch.' word...

Toby Fiander responded:
> > Now as for chokoes..........................
> You shouldn't have mentioned the 'ch.' word...

Slowly I turned.... step by step......

Actually I have come to see that chokos have many uses, such as:
Peter Macinnis exulted:

Good news for broccoli haters -- I knew this was in the files somewhere:

A tiny, voracious fly called the swede midge, which already has eaten its way across eastern Canada's cabbage and broccoli fields, now is threatening to descend on crops in states along the northern U.S. border.

On Feb. 11 an educational session on the swede midge will be held for registered growers at the 2003 New York State Vegetable Conference in Liverpool, N.Y. It will be presented by Julie Kikkert, senior extension educator with Cornell Cooperative Extension (CCE), Christy Hoepting, an educator with CCE, and Kristen Callow, of the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food, Canada.

Cornell University agricultural scientists and extension educators are working to keep New York state brassica vegetable crops, including cabbages, Brussels sprouts and cauliflower, free from the midge. They are trying to fend off an invasion by scouting for the insect and educating farmers to recognize damage.

Although the fly is hardly detectable to the naked eye, it could decimate vegetable fields in New York state, which leads the country in cabbage production with an $87 million crop annually. The state also has a $6 million annual production of broccoli, Brussels sprouts, cauliflower, Chinese cabbage and related crops.

"Because of the growth in international commerce, insects and diseases move around more freely than ever before. The midge has been a major pest in Europe, it has been found in Canada, and most likely over time we'll find it in the United States, if it is not already present," says Anthony Shelton, professor of entomology at Cornell's New York State Agricultural Experiment Station in Geneva, N.Y.

Larvae of the swede midge (Contarinia nasturtii) feed on and destroy the growing tips of cruciferous plants, which include brassica vegetables. The fly had not been detected in North America before 2001, although Ontario farmers began noticing heavy losses - as much as 85 percent of their broccoli crop - as far back as 1994.  Mistakenly, the losses were blamed on deficiencies in soil nutrients.  In 2001 University of Guelph researchers surveyed a large number of crucifer fields in Ontario and Quebec by mailing yellow sticky cards to growers. When growers returned the cards, university scientists were able to confirm the presence of the midge.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency says the presence of swede midge in Canada could have a significant impact on exports of brassica vegetables. In Canada brassica vegetable exports were worth $22.7 million Canadian ($14.98 million U.S.) in 2001, and the commercial value was estimated at $118.2 million Canadian ($78.02 million U.S.).

While the broccoli, cabbage and cauliflower crop damage could be significant in Ontario and Quebec, according to agency, the economic loss could be far greater if the midge spreads to the prairie provinces. Production losses for the canola crop alone could be as high as $2.2 billion Canadian ($1.45 billion U.S.)

Hoepting, Kikkert and Shelton have presented nine informational sessions in New York state to more than 200 growers, research faculty, industry representatives and inspectors from the U.S. Department of Agriculture-Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service. In addition, the educators' articles have been published in trade newsletters, and they are sending a fact sheet to all crucifer growers in New York.  

Swede midge adult flies are about 1.5 to 2 millimeters long. In the spring, flies emerge from the pupae, mate and typically lay their eggs in clusters on the growing point of the plant. After a few days, the larvae hatch from the eggs and begin to feed near the growing point.  Full-grown larvae fall to the ground and burrow into the soil to pupate. Kikkert says that some over-wintering pupae can survive in the soil for more than a year. Canadian scientists have found that there are three or four overlapping generations throughout the summer months.

Kikkert is gearing up for an entomological war. "We want to protect the $93 million worth of state crops from the swede midge. We're lucky to have had a heads-up on this pest from our Canadian colleagues," she says. "Our survey and farmer-education program will help ensure that it won't go undetected or unknowingly spread throughout the state. At the same time, it is critical that we develop strategies through research to manage this pest when it does arrive."

GO, MIDGE, GO!!

Paul Williams wrote:

Potatoes exposed to light may turn green. I recall reading that the oxalic acid {no - it is solanine, and the colour indicates it may be present} formed may be dangerous to pregnant women and hence the fetus. This may have been only to do oxalic acid interfering with iron and calcium absorbtion though.

I just looked up the LD50 for oxalic acid: About 5kg of green rhubarb leaves.
One would imagine that hundreds of kilos of green potatoes would be needed.
I believe that thorough cooking denatures oxalic acid so one would need to eat these raw for maximum effect.

I would no longer put potatoes on the 'banned list'.
Green chillies now......
Peter Macinnis answered:
> Potatoes exposed to light may turn green. I recall reading that the
> oxalic acid formed may be dangerous to pregnant women and hence the
> fetus. This may have been only to do oxalic acid interfering with iron
> and calcium absorbtion though.
Try solanine as the active constituent -- lilies have oxalic acid, and some plants called sorrel (Oxalis sp.) -- I don't know what the herb sorrel is, but Jamaicans drink sorrel juice, different family, and also called a rosella -- it seems we got that name, as well as "Blue Mountains" courtesy of naval officers in the First Fleet who had spent time stationed there.  I note that the original of "Aunt Eller" in "Oklahoma!" was a lady (mother of the original writer) named Rose Ella, but draw no inference from that.  Nor will I mention the former English teacher of a respected member of this list, even though he is severely toxic.
> I believe that thorough cooking denatures oxalic acid so one would need
> to eat these raw for maximum effect.
As I said, it is solanine, not oxalic acid.  Neither oxalic acid nor solanine is a protein, so you are probably wide of the mark when you talk about "denaturing". Oxalic acid decomposes at 189.5 C, but I have no figures for solanine.

Gerald Cairnes added:

According to the Merck Index solanine can be separated into six components, alpha, beta and gamma solanine and similarly alpha, beta and gamma chaconine. They appear to be tricyclic compounds with a side chain of solanidine. LD50 mice - 42g/kg, has been used as an insecticide.
Pharmacology Nishie et al Toxicol. J. Appl. Pharmacol. (19) 81 1971.

It browns and sinters at about 190 deg. C. and decomposes at about 285 deg. C.

There is a related compound also from the Solanacae, solasonine which differs mainly by substitution of the solanidine side chain for solasodine. An anyileprotic. Nothing on toxicity. Properties Brownlee Brit. J. Pharm. (3) 15 1948. Sinters at about 296 deg.C.

and:

I am not sure if this is one which was answered by Peter earlier so forgive me if I reply again.

Oxalic acid does not denature in fact it sublimes if the temperature is high enough slightly more than 100 deg. C. Denaturing is a process which applies to proteins where by heat causes the unfolding of the protein structure thus changing the properties.

I don't think oxalic acid is a toxin of potatoes.

Paul responded:

Whoops... (a senior monment).  Apologies.
It is a dangerous thing to sort wrong information into memory. Worse to pass this on.
Indeed Solamine - and Chaconine - are the glycoalkaloids in question.

http://www.health.act.gov.au/publications/foodsurvey/1996-97/potatoes.html
> > I believe that thorough cooking denatures oxalic acid so one would  need
> > to eat these raw for maximum effect.
> As I said, it is solanine, not oxalic acid.  Neither oxalic acid nor
> solanine is a protein, so you are probably wide of the mark when you
> talk about "denaturing". Oxalic acid decomposes at 189.5 C, but I have
> no figures for solanine.

You are correct. There are only minor traces of oxalic acid in potatoes.  I realise that oxalic acid is not a protein.
I was using 'denaturing' generally (Macquarie #1 definition): "To deprive (something) of it's perculiar nature"
In biochemistry I believe 'denaturing' is used strictly for proteins.

My understanding is that some of the chemical changes in oxalic acid during cooking depend upon the mineral content of the water (if one is boiling).  My understanding is that calcium oxalate is not readily absorbed nor is magnesium oxalate.