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On 6/9/2002, Toby wrote:

Rumours of my imminent demise were exaggerated.

However, the large Rottwieler-cross (mutt) who mauled me yesterday has left significant bruising on my back just below shoulder height, and I have some puncture wound which are uncomfortable when I lean back.  I have renewed my tetanus toxoid protection as I could not remember the last time I did so.

Since this is the second time in a week I have been attacked by a dog while generally going about my lawful and quiet business, I am prompted to ask what other people do about dogs.   Are there any postman on the list or perhaps other people who, like me, work in a lot of places in a week?

I think I am about to start carrying a length of 16mm polythene pipe with me when I walk.  If I keep this in the car with me when I work, I can probably make it look natural when I get out of the car at a strange property and go up to the front door.  On the basis that most dogs are not completely stupid and attacking someone who obviously has some means to fight back is less attractive than attacking someone who is unarmed.

I am at a loss to understand why people keep dogs who are capable of doing this.

In both recent cases, there was more than one dog present but only one attacked me.  Ignoring the dog in these circumstances is obviously not the appropriate strategy.... nor is talking soothingly to it, either.

In the second case, the dog on its hind legs was taller than I was.  I was busy ignoring it when it decided to take advantage of my disdain.  I am short for a caucasian male (1.72m), but a dog at full stretch with a head at about the same height as mine is quite a large animal, and quite formidable.

Any observations?
 

Wolfie replied:

Dr Karl once mentioned the use of a sweaty tissue, kept in the armpit which they might fall in love with and leave you alone, but I wouldn't rely on it.

People get vicious dogs for the same reason they get huge cars... cause they have a small penis.

Benny has a problem with other dogs, he can't stand them.  I'm not sure why this is.

Sorry to hear of your encounter. This sort of attack usually signifies an undisciplined dog with no social or discriminatory skills. I think you might find it difficult to use a stick or pipe as a weapon of defence because dogs will pull at you very strongly and keep you off balance unless of course it simply acts as a deterrent. Dogs which are untrained and will attack are particularly dangerous especially the larger breeds simply because of their size. I think I would prefer a cattle prod as a weapon which even if the charge did not convince it of the need to let go it would make a better impression as a club. Unfortunately cattle prods are expensive and heavy, not the sort of thing you would carry about on your daily chores but the pack a hell of a wallop especially if applied between the eyes. Frankly I would goal the owners and prohibit them from dog ownership in future.

The last dog which bailed me up was neighbours dog which would not let us get out of the house or exit from our car when we returned home this was a very large Rhodesian Ridgeback and totally undisciplined by its owner who could not care less. All appeals to Council and the dog catcher were to no avail they would not act. One particularly dangerous attack which occurred when I went to pick up my mail from the mail box and carrying a large stick which only delayed what would have been ultimate physical contact which was only stopped by my son "flying" out of the cottage to my defence. The dog decided that two against one was a bit uneven and retreated to the roadway and snarled from there. I went back for my gun but the bloody thing had shot through and I never did get an opportunity to end this scourge's life.

After several early morning calls 2-5 am for police help and the police saw the dog but did nothing, my son went to the neighbour and protested at his front door when the neighbour took a swing at Ian who is very skilled at martial arts turned into a head lock whereupon another neighbour came and threatened Ian with a steel bar. Ian could have taken both on but thought it was time to retreat. Neighbour then had Ian charged with common assault which got us all dragged into 2 days of Court proceedings and great cost. The neighbour did not get off totally scot free he was ordered to immediately build a 2 m. fence around his property to keep the animal restricted there. Well he did not build the fence and ironically the next victim of the dog was the neighbour who threatened Ian with the steel bar. This guy called the Council and the dog catcher actually came but was unable to catch the beast and was savaged for his troubles. Then the police came and the dog was shot by them. I wonder what you have to do to get these bloody bureaucrats off their fat arses to actually do their jobs properly??? I suppose with hind sight we should have joined the Council in the Court matter and cost them some money.

Now I propose to deal with the dogs MY WAY and I won't look to the Police for assistance. Just one more example of NON GOVERNMENT by those elected and paid to do a job! I actually got to the point of making up a hollow tube with a syringe implanted in the end and filling the syringe with a quick acting poison but I suspect that would land you in more trouble in the City. Large dogs can be deadly and can never be taken lightly, there is no simple answer unless we attack the owners legally. SUE, SUE, SUE is the only way they will eventually get the message that this neglect COSTS BIG TIME!
 

Toby replied:

Thank you for the ideas about dealing with dogs.  Let me see... we have had:

• singing, don't carry a stick it is provocation,
• carry a cattle prod, or at least an electrified stick (no one suggested a tasar, but that might be because no one wanted to say it on a public list),
• speak soothingly, make noises telling to go home (which assumes it isn't already),
• ignore it,
• fix it with your gaze,
• bite it back,
• call the cops,
• don't call the cops, sue until it hurts,
• distract it by asking it if it wants to go for a walk,
• take your own dog with you.

Good... thanks for that consensus, folks.  I can see the ideas are as divergent as the people.

However, I think only one person who admitted to being a dog owner actually spoke and his dog apparently does not attack people going to his front door or passing in the street... he does, however, dislike other dogs, which is just normal behaviour for dogs, I think.

No one (except Gerald who touched on it in passing and by implication) seems to have discussed what seems obvious to me:  it is impossible to generalise about dog behaviour, so how about banning at least some dogs in urban areas?  The concept seems to have merit to me.  And if that is too radical what about training for potential owners (or else you cannot have a dog)?   What about licensing of premises where dogs are kept and of planning approval for them?  So at least the dog owner gets the idea that there is some responsibility involved.

My first incident last week, which I have largely ignored so far, involved two boxer dogs barking their way down the street, I was bitten around the ankle.  I was prepared to ignore this because the dogs were foaming and distressed and anyway, I was wearing boots so the damage to me was only where the dog's teeth missed the boots.  However, during the 5-6minutes of the incident, the dogs had created sufficient commotion and fear in the street to make another walker take shelter behind a 4wd that had stopped to see if assistance was required.  It was not possible for me to walk away, because that would have invited further attack - I simply had to face them to stop at least one of them biting me.  This made it impossible to get away.

Now, here is my point.  No one got hurt, except me and only slightly.  But if the dogs had decided to dislike someone my 16yo daughter's size (1.54m tall and slightly built) or perhaps a shorter person, or even to dislike the lady walking up the street who was protected by someone with the presence of mind to stop and assist, we might be reading about this in the papers, not just on Science Matters... or perhaps not.  Apparently, most hospitals already deal daily with the results of dog attacks.

In urban areas, there are no rabbits for dogs to chase and exercise their normal tendencies to aggression.  There is no culture of training of dogs for work and there is little discipline.  Social needs of dogs are largely ignored except on the weekend.  The turf the dogs protect is very small and there are just too many of them.

>From the six properties that have a common boundary with the office, I count five dogs.  Three of them would qualify as large dogs.  In this street where I live and from where I am writing this morning, I can see six houses from a front window. There seem to be five dogs, from their barking, it seems likely the majority are large.  But most of the houses have yards like ours, which has an area of about 80m^2 and the longest run is about 15m.  Why are people keeping dogs in such an environment?

There are other issues besides safety with dogs, too.  I regularly avoid - and occasionally fail to avoid - dog turds on the footpath as I walk.  When it rains, all this becomes part of the runoff, which probably adds tens of units to the BOD and increases the E.coli count by four or five orders of magnitude.  It is also probably a source of hydatids and other worms.

If dog owners cannot be responsible - and it seems that enough of them cannot - them dog owning should be restricted to those who can and in places where it is appropriate.  There is already a problem.

Toby, it isn't recommended to try to stare a dog down.  In the canine world, eye contact is body language for "C'mon have a go ya mug"   This is especially true if the dog already has its hackles up.

and Gerald reinforced:

NO! NO! NO!  trying to stare down a dog which considers itself to be dominant is almost guaranteed to provoke an attack. The technique is to give the impression of confidence in your own position without throwing down a challenge, side long galnces are called for so that it knows it is being watched but is uncertain of your intentions or capacities, keep it "off balance" and guessing.  Always buy time in these situations often the situation can resolve itself this way. Of course if you're dealing with a lunatic then anything goes.
 

Zero Sum posted:

Never tackle a pair of dogs, but one alone is not usually a problem. When you smile, make sure you bear your teeth, reduce height slightly and move sharply towards it.  It will wheel an retreat.  Dogs are pack animals.  They are not that brave when alone.

The only time it didn't work (a dumb doberman) the vet bills were far higher than the doctor's bills - and it never attacked anyone again.

Hi Toby, along with many other things in my life I run a small boarding kennel for dogs. I have a large variety of dogs who stay..some up to two months. Local farmers leave their dogs with me and tourists on the way to the National Park. I completed an excellent training course sometime ago through an association called Bark Busters; you may know of them. They have offices throughout Australia, N.Z. and U.S.A. Their dog attack prevention methods are used by many government and other organisation.

Anyhow their main line of training is firstly body language, i.e. one must act confidently around dogs. If a dog is showing aggression never use your hands or wave them around. This will excite the dog, hence leading to fear and attack. I was taught that "hands are only used to stoke or show affection to the dog", (never pat a dog on the head, always stroke or rub under the chin..down toward the neck. If a dog does go to attack , lower your head, never make eye contact and drop your arms. This may sound a load of rubbish but it does work. Never carry sticks...yes this does excite ggression.

Dogs are pack animals (as you are aware) and need to feel secure and that there is a "leader" so to speak. In my case as soon I get a new dog in my kennels I very quickly establish that I am "top dog" so to speak. I respond to bad behaviour by a "growl"...such as "bah", very deep guttural sound. This stops all behaviour such as: over exuberance, jumping up, unsociable behaviour, unnecessary barking, separation anxiety and aggressive behaviour. If you need to get a dog to respond to recall, get down to their level and call ..so forth. This is also a strange one..but once again it works. Get a few small lengths of stainless steel chains (must be steel for the necessary noise it makes) about 7 inches in length, carry them in your pocket; if you are about to experience another horrible incident as the last , very quickly throw the chain sharply at the feet of the dog...by it's side, whatever. The dog will respond very quickly and back off. Dogs have a good grasp of language, on average they can understand about 40 expressions, mostly signals. Research in New Scientist, March 2000.

I work very closely with Vets in my area; this address was given to me.

Animal Behaviour helpline. Vic. Tel.0419384922.
Also  Bark Busters .www.barkbusters.com.au

I use the principal of 'body language" to train all my animals, including my camels. I hope this may assist you.

Interesting reading re: dogs ..."Dogs that know when their owners are coming home" Rupert Sheldrake 1999.
"Dogs never lie about love" J Masson.

Yes, I do agree that all dog owner ought to be trained...it's not the dog with the problem in most cases ..it's the human.

Gerald replied"
 

Hi Julia,
I agree with what you say but I will add comment about dogs jumping on you. This is a bad habit to be seriously discouraged but can be a difficult one to break. My best method to stop this behaviour is to raise your knee as the dog jumps up so that it catches it on the chest and falls back in discomfort, then fuss over it a bit, never leave a chastised dog without comforting it, they get depressed very easily and that can lead to other nasty habits and relationships. It is important to distinguish between the lesson being given and the comforting so that you are not reinforcing bad behaviour, this is usually achieved by allowing a slight pause between the lesson and the comforting.

You have to be careful not to be too violent about this or you might break a rib but a few repeat sessions and it will begin to take notice where other methods may fail. After a few practise runs you can get very skilled at timing and the force of delivery of the blow so that it is only the dog's esteem that takes a hit. With experience you can also deflect the dog sideways which also has the effect of a psychological defeat.

Having said that like the dumb Doberman Zero referred to, it must have been really dumb, some dogs are just too thick to learn, like our pollies I suppose. :-))

Seeing as I spen two hours at the gym most days, no I wouldn't.  I've never met a trained dog I ddn't respect - and treat with respect.

A really good dog will 'negotiate' with a stranger who is not misbehaving.  No problem with that.  Seldom do they attempt an alpha status.

I do have a problem with untrained, aggressive dogs of any breed.  Particularly those who would not be alpha in any pack but have learnt that humans can be dominated.  It is a bad message to leave.
 

Chris Heart added:

I've been quiet about this thread for a while, but there needs some explanation for those who don't understand dogs very well. I'm not picking on anyone.

I have trained dogs - and de-trained dogs. This includes attack trained, personal protection and group protection dogs as well as 'fixing' problem dogs including timid dogs that the owner wanted to instill some confidence in and all the myriad of problems dogs can have if not handled correctly by the 'pack leader' or 'human boss dog'.

Some dogs however just don't 'have it' - either to be a guard dog of any description, or a pet. A very small number of dogs are useless for either and some dogs can do both. It depends on the temperament of the dogs, it's breeding and what 'training' it has had beforehand.

As far as dog attacks are concerned, a dog 'senses' a situation - and is damned good at it - by evaluating the attitude, stance, smell and position and sound of whatever has it's attention at the time.

Dogs smell fear - the sweat mixed with copious amounts of epinephrine (Adrenaline) is a sign of fear. The Dog has absolutely no problems smelling it. Dogs also evaluate the positioning and stance of a (potential) threat. Advancing is threatening especially if the front of the person is facing the dog ands the dog does not know the person or is fearful of the person.

Screaming is audible fear. One of the reasons dogs attack girls/women is because they scream (in fear) and this is a trigger for the dog. Laughing at a dog can help to keep it off-guard. (It doesn't always work.)

Looking a dog in the eyes is a sure way to challenge a dog. That is why children get bitten so much. The child instinctively looks into a persons eyes and does the same to the dog which is interpreted as a challenge to the dogs standing in the 'pack'.

Backing off from a threatening dog without showing obvious fear, and retreating while facing the dog and not making any fast or excessive movements is a wise way to try to avoid an aggressive dog's attack. If the dog is belligerent, challenged, aggressive or vicious enough, it may attack anyway. I'm not generally a lover of the term 'vicious' as it is misused so much by the media who have failed to educate the public in what to do about dogs and how to treat, rear, train or react to them.

Dogs are far more complex than the public generally consider and any strange dog must be considered 'suspect' and unpredictable unless it is fully under the control of a person who has been trained in the control and management of the animal.

Don't trust any strange dogs. Tell your children NOT to look at a dogs eyes - especially if it barks or snarls at them. Don't run away from a dog - it can likely easily catch you and you can't 'protect your back' while you run away. Don't trust a dog just because the dog wags it's tail at you. Don't trust a 'grinning' dog. Don't let a dog 'play rough' with anyone. It isn't ever 'play' to the dog. It's dog serious. If you have a dog, make sure you obedience train it. This can save a life. Maybe your own or your children's.

<kicks soapbox back under table>

I did not mean to imply that the dogs could smell under water only that they smelled the objects after retrieval. In terms of importance dogs use their sense of smell first followed by hearing and sight more or less last, again  this does not imply that the senses are used necessarily independently in a serial fashion either.

I found a good underwater retrieval capacity to be a very good indicator of tracking capacity and tenacity with respect to the job in hand. All of these issues are also affected by "temperament". On the other hand an odd dog would be so obsessive so that all it wanted to do was to play at under water retrieval and was utterly useless for serious work.

Talking about obsessive behaviour, when we were building our house at Hornsby in the mid 60's we had to do a monumental amount of terracing as the block was so steep it was impossible to walk around it, on the side of a gorge. In doing this I broke up sandstone outcrops and winched them up hill with a series of pulleys strung between two large trees. The whole process was a huge one and took some time to complete, by the end our two Doberman were carrying rocks up hill to deposit them where they thought they should be, it seemed like a good idea at the time. :-) The habit became so ingrained that after all the work was finished and pathways constructed, lawn etc. the dogs went on carrying rocks whenever they were doing nothing else. Zero would probably say "dumb Dobermans" maybe with some justification, though they were very good at other things.

The bitch would find a rock to her liking and manoeuvre it so that it was gripped by the long dimension with her mouth wide open and happily carry it around for hours a habit which continued throughout her life. The same bitch was completely hand reared as her mother's milk failed, and as a consequence she would suck the corner of her bed mat just the way many children do with various items of bedding. She quietly sidle up to an unsuspecting visitor and quietly suck the corner of a jacket or coat until it was very slobbery, if not detected first. She was Ruth's dog and no one messed with Ruth without being told where to get off, a delightful companion so long as you didn't mind being "suckered". :-)

I remember seeing a TV doco on the diving Labrador a long time ago though, but I recollect it was using its eyes to identify the objects under water.