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/ Colormap • Page 5742 • {1/62} (1)Wednesday, 26 July 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth, the interpreters, legal assistants, court reporters, the registrar; good morning, Mr. Harmon, Mr. McCloskey, from the Prosecution. I see we have a new member of your (10)team today; good morning. Good morning, Defence counsel, Mr. Petrusic, Mr. Visnjic; good morning, General Krstic. We are going to resume our case. Good morning, madam. Can you hear me? I didn't hear an answer. Can you hear me? Yes, I'm in front of you. I'm talking to you. (15) THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, I do hear you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You're going to read the solemn declaration that the usher is going to give to you, please. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I apologise. Do you want me to read out loud? (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Yes, please read it loudly. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: WITNESS DD
THE INTERPRETER: Could the other microphone be switched on as well. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Is this a protected witness, Madam Registrar? Please look at that piece of paper to see simply whether your name is written on it, and tell us yes or no if that is your name. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Are you comfortable? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please feel at ease. You are going to answer questions which, first, the Office of the Prosecutor is (15)going to put to you. I see Mr. Harmon on his feet, so Mr. Harmon is going to question you. He is to your right, already on his feet. MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours, good morning, and good morning to my colleagues for the Defence. I will not be leading this witness. I wanted to take the (20)opportunity to formally introduce my colleague, Ms. Magda Karagiannakas who will be leading the examination of this witness and the next witness. I thought it appropriate to formally introduce her since she is a new face in this courtroom. Now I pass the floor to Ms. Karagiannakis.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you, Mr. Harmon. We
(25)welcome with pleasure Ms. Magda. I think this will be her first official
MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Thank you, Your Honours, and good morning to you and to the Defence. (5) • EXAMINED by Ms. Karagiannakis: • Q.: Good morning, Witness. • A.: Good morning. • Q.: Can you tell me what your nationality is and what your religion is? (10) • A.: I am a Muslim woman. • Q.: In what year were you born? • A.: In 1954. • Q.: Were you born in a village in the Srebrenica municipality? • A.: I was. (15) • Q.: What level of education did you achieve at school? • A.: Four years of elementary school. • Q.: Why didn't you proceed any further in your elementary schooling? • A.: We didn't have the means, especially not for girls. Rather, boys were educated to a higher level if possible. (20) • Q.: So what was the normal educational level for girls in your village? • A.: Well, so-so. Girls attended to the household and housework; they engaged in knitting and embroidering and farming. • Q.: How old were you when you got married? (25)
• A.: I was going on to 23.
• A.: It was quite normal for girls to get married at that age; some at a slightly earlier age. But from 23 on, it was reckoned that she was a (5)bit late. • Q.: Now, when you got married, where did you go to live? • A.: I went to the place where I stayed until the fall of Srebrenica. • Q.: How far away from Srebrenica town was this village? • A.: Not far. I don't know whether it was roughly half an hour on (10)foot. • Q.: Now, did you have any children? • A.: I did. • Q.: Can you tell me how many children you have and when they were born? But please don't tell me their names. (15)
• A.: I had four children
[redacted] • Q.: You had four children. Was it normal in your village to have (20)large families or small families, or were there many people without any children at all? • A.: Well, that was quite exceptional if people didn't have children at all because they couldn't, but it was normal to have four, five, even six. • Q.: Can you tell me how your husband was employed? (25)
• A.: My husband worked in a company, transportation company called
• Q.: And what did he do there? • A.: My husband sometimes stood in for the manager, and sometimes he worked as the boss in this company, as a kind of chief. (5) • Q.: And what was your job or role? • A.: My role was to be a faithful housewife, to work hard, to take care of the household and its needs, to look after the children, to do the housework and the farming and the land, everything that was necessary. To tend the livestock, as well. (10) • Q.: And who made the decisions in your family? • A.: My husband was head of the family and the household and everything, but we would consult if necessary and take decisions. If I were to suggest something, he wouldn't humiliate me; we would decide together. But he was the number one. (15) • Q.: Now, who out of your family dealt with the authorities and any paperwork that you had to complete or your family needed? • A.: That was all my husband's affair. • Q.: And who out of your family managed the finances and the money? • A.: My husband earned the money and brought it home, and then together (20)we would decide what we needed, what for, and how much, and we spent it like that. • Q.: Was the way in which your family was organised common or uncommon in your village?
• A.: It was very common. That is how it was in all the households. We
(25)were not in any way exceptional. That is how things were in our part of
• Q.: Now, did you have any Serb neighbours? (5) • A.: We did. • Q.: And were they aware of the way in which your family and other Muslim families were organised in your village? • A.: Yes, they did know. We were friends, in fact. We went to have coffee at each other's houses. And if we were working on something, we (10)would help one another. We would help them, and they would help us. • Q.: Can you please describe for me your house, your land, and any livestock that you may have had?
• A.: I can't really describe the land, I can just tell you that I had
more than a hundred dulums, a dulums being 900 square metres. I'm not
(15)sure exactly how much, over a hundred, but I know that it was over a
hundred. Then I had up to 50 sheep, about 15 goats, sometimes as many as
a hundred chicken.
My house was 10 by 12 metres, and it had a first floor. There was
a separate entrance for the ground floor and a separate one for the first
(20)floor.
Then the stable was about ten metres long. Next to the stable
there was a garage. In the stable we held cows and horses. We had a
separate stable for the sheep. Then we had a smoking shed for meat. Then
we had a plum area, six by two and a half, an outside toilet next to the
(25)stable, then a chicken pen. That was separate.
• A.: How can I describe it? It was a kind of life one could only hope for, the kind of life we had before the war. One had one's own land. You (5)could produce what you wanted: vegetables, fruit, tend livestock, dairy products, everything. Whatever you needed, you had everything. My husband was working in a public company. He brought home his earnings. All we had to do was enjoy life. • Q.: Now, Witness, I'd like to focus your attention on the events in (10)Srebrenica in July 1995. At that time the attack on Srebrenica started, were you living with your husband and your sons in your home about three kilometres from Srebrenica town? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And when the attack commenced, did you and your family leave your (15)home to go into the woods because shells had fallen near your house and you feared for your safety?
• A.: Yes. We were sleeping that night. We knew that the UNPROFOR was
there, and we felt safe. We were working and sleeping normally, even
though they would shoot arbitrarily whenever they wanted because they were
(20)close by, when they would see people in the fields.
So we were sleeping that night and early in the morning when the
shelling started, we were so scared, we jumped up. A shell fell close to
our house. The windows shattered. The whole house shook. There was so
much dust that we could hardly see one another through it.
(25)Then we started screaming. The children jumped up in their
• Q.: Witness, after a few days, did you and your family subsequently go to Srebrenica town, to an UNPROFOR checkpoint?
• A.: We did. We were in the woods and along the streams for two or
(20)three days. Then we got to Srebrenica. Because I had a lot of relatives
there who had been chased out of their homes earlier on, so I stayed with
them for awhile, hoping that Srebrenica would be protected by the people
who were protecting us.
When we saw that nothing would come of it, people started moving
(25)towards UNPROFOR, where they were stationed. It's Vezionica or something;
• Q.: At the time when you were at the checkpoint, did your husband and older son leave you to try and escape Srebrenica through the woods? (5) • A.: Everyone was there. Men, women, children, all the young people. I remember very well it was Tuesday. We were hoping, and I'm still hoping, but we didn't know what was happening. People were crying, screaming. Shots could be heard all the time. Somebody was trying to comfort us, telling us, "Srebrenica will not fall. Don't take it too (10)hard. Don't panic," but nothing came of it. They had some kind of makeshift radios; they were trying to listen to the news. People were hoping that something would happen. Then one could hear, for example, "We heard it on the radio. They will send the aeroplanes now. They will save us now." I remember very well that (15)somebody had a very small radio set, but it was very unclear, everything I heard. At one point I heard that the situation in Srebrenica was calming down and that people were going back to their homes. But then I realised that nothing good would come of it because everybody had gathered around (20)the UNPROFOR base. People had started gathering there two or three days before. They were all over the place, along the creeks, in the woods, hiding in the rocks. • Q.: So was that the place that your husband and your older son left you to go to try and escape through the woods? (25)
• A.: At that point, the shelling started again. The detonations were
• Q.: Witness, is it true to say that you spent two nights in Potocari out in the open with your sons? (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: And -- • A.: It was on Tuesday. On that day, we spent the evening there, the whole day Wednesday, and we were still there on Wednesday evening. Then there was this black Thursday that came. I remember it was around 10.00 (10)or half past ten. We were still there, and at that time we reached the line near the trucks where people were waiting to be transported. • Q.: What happened then? • A.: Could I please have a glass of water? Things were getting worse and more horrible every day, every (15)hour. We spent sometime there on that day, but we didn't have anything to eat, we didn't have any water to drink. We were looking for shelter and water all the time, and that is how we spent that first day. When the night fell finally -- • Q.: Witness -- (20) • A.: -- we were looking for a place to shelter ourselves. Yes? • Q.: Witness, you mentioned black Thursday. What happened on that black Thursday when you were going to be transported out? • A.: I was going to tell you the whole story from Tuesday to Thursday. Can I do that? (25)
• Q.: Witness, the Judges have already heard quite a lot of evidence in
• A.: Okay. So when that black Thursday came, it was in the early
morning hours, and my child was still sleeping, the child that was about
to be snatched from me. So I woke him up, telling him that we should
(10)leave, that we should go to the trucks. He got up. He wanted to eat -- I
asked him if he wanted to eat something but he couldn't take anything. He
complained about being dirty. He had some kind of white shirt on him. I
took off that shirt and then I cleaned him a little bit. I had some other
clothes in my bag and I gave it to him. I was trying to calm him down. I
(15)told him that we would soon be transported to some place where we could
have a shower and wash ourselves a little bit.
Then we moved closer to the line. There was a kind of tape around
the area. There were a lot of people. We couldn't cross over. I
realised that my son was not feeling well, that he was about to faint.
(20)Then I started looking for some water but there was no water anywhere.
There was a friend of ours there, an elderly man, and he said that he
would go and get some water for my son.
So he left, and then after he came back he was totally white in
his face. His wife was there. But he kept shaking his head like this and
(25)he was telling his wife something about some horrible things that he had
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Madam, please, take your time. Take your time to calm down. We are here with you; we're listening to (15)you. Take your time. • A.: That was the last time I heard his voice. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Take your time, madam. Do you think you'll need a break? Would you prefer to go on? If you feel able to continue, please let us know that. (20)
• A.: Yes, yes, I can continue.
My other child who was with me kept screaming. This child was
born in 1986. He grabbed me by my hair; he was pulling my hair. He was
shouting and screaming, "Mommy, they have taken my brother away. They
have taken our brother." And then I was thinking about taking this other
(25)child and going to where my son had been taken, but he kept screaming. He
MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: • Q.: Witness, were you then transported by that truck with your young son to Tisca where you got off and then walked to Kladanj?
• A.: Yes, but on the road to Tisca we were stoned on several occasions
(20)because it was an open truck which did not have any cover, any tarpaulin,
and my other child was hit on his head.
I had a kind -- some kind of shoes with me, and then I put them on
my child's head. That happened the first time when we were stoned. But
that happened once again, and a woman who was on the truck had a kind of a
(25)blanket, and I put the blanket on my child's head, and I put the shoes on
MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Your Honours, I will need to go into closed (15)session for the next couple of questions I have for this witness.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, we will go into closed
session -- or, rather, private session.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Please go on. MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: • Q.: Witness, I'd now like to ask you some questions about life after (10)the fall of Srebrenica. Can you describe where you live now and the type of accommodation it is? • A.: I'm now living in a collective centre. You can only imagine what it's like. Every minute of the day I wish I was no longer alive. Some (15)people singing, some people listening to music, another one dancing; everyone is doing whatever they like. My room is about four by six, something like that. That is where we sleep, where we live, where we cook. The bathroom, toilet, everything, all in one. That is where we have to dry our clothes and to have (20)visitors. That's all we have. • Q.: Who do you live with in that room?
• A.: I'm living in that room with my son, born in 1986. I also have a
daughter who has no accommodation at all. She comes to see me. She has
two children of her own. So you can't keep it tidy. If you're in
(25)pyjamas, you can't change. You often sleep in the clothes you wear during
• Q.: Are you employed? • A.: No. • Q.: Do you receive an income? (5) • A.: I receive something based on my husband's employment in the company, and then out of his social insurance, I'm given an allowance, taking into account that I have a minor with me. But I'm not old enough to have a pension. • Q.: How much money do you receive a month? (10) • A.: 140. • Q.: 140 what? • A.: Money. What do they call them? Marks, coupons. I don't know. These convertible marks or something. • Q.: How would you compare your standard of living today to the (15)standard of living you had before the war? • A.: There's no comparison. I've told you my whole life, what it was like before and what it is like now. How can you compare the two? • Q.: Now, what has been the impact of these crimes on you and your son?
• A.: You can imagine what it has been. My young son, born in 1986, he
(20)has demands. He wants this and that, and he starts trembling when I tell
him I don't have it, I can't afford it. Then he accuses me of all kinds
of things, saying that it was my fault that things are like this. "If I
had a father, he would give me everything."
So you can imagine in addition to all my stress and anxieties, I
(25)have to try and console him. He keeps blaming me. "Perhaps it would have
• Q.: How do you feel about returning to your village? • A.: What would you suggest to me, after everything I've been through? (5)If I had felt well and if I had strength. When war criminals are still walking around and doing what they want, what's the point about thinking -- even though I sometimes think that it would be better if we hadn't survived. Should I take him over there too to be killed and slaughtered? (10)It's true that I loved my village and estate, but of course there's no comparison with the love one has for children. I did love it all, the house and the farm and everything, but what's the point of it all now? • Q.: What do you think has happened to your husband and your two sons? (15) • A.: How do I know? As a mother, I still have hope. I just can't believe that this is true. How is it possible that a human being could do something like this, could destroy everything, could kill so many people? Just imagine this youngest boy I had, those little hands of his, how could they be dead? I imagine those hands picking strawberries, reading books, (20)going to school, going on excursions. Every morning I wake up, I cover my eyes not to look at other children going to school, and husbands going to work, holding hands. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Have you finished your examination-in-chief? (25)
MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour. I won't ask any more
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Madam, for the moment the Prosecutor has no further questions. Would you like to have a break now? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Whatever you say. I will tell you (5)everything I know, whatever you ask me. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] No. We know that you are a very brave woman, but we're going to have a break because we normally have a break, and after that we'll come back here and we will continue to listen to you. (10)For the moment, we're going to have a 20-minute break. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. --- Recess taken at 10.42 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Madam, have you had a little (15)rest? WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So now, madam -- I was saying, madam, that you are now going to answer questions which Defence counsel is going to put to you. I have already told you that you are a very brave (20)woman, so now you're going to answer questions put to you by Mr. Visnjic. Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence has no questions for this witness.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. Thank you, Mr.
(25)Visnjic. No additional questions.
• QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you Mr. President. Good morning, madam. Can you hear me? I am in front of you. (5) • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: I share the views of the president in saying that we have a great deal of admiration for your courage, and we understand and feel for your pain, but there is a life ahead of you, and the whole world is on your side. (10)I simply wanted to ask you whether your husband before being arrested, whether he took part in any resistance or whether he attacked people on the other side? Was there any reason for his arrest in your opinion? • A.: No. (15) JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Were any weapons found in your home? • A.: No. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Was there any political activity he was involved in? • A.: No. (20) JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Was he selected among others, or did they round up people without any discrimination? • A.: One and all, as I just said, regardless. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] And as for your son, was he chosen among many other boys? Did they take a lot of other boys of his age? (25)
• A.: All the others, whoever was there.
• A.: Well, it depended. Some were younger than my son, a year or two. Some were a little older. There were men of different ages there. There (5)were even babies that were being born. They took them, too, if they were boys, not to mention the older boys. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Yes, but your son was born in 1981? • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] So he was 12, 13, 14? (10) • A.: He was going on 14 then. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Was he big? Did he look like a mature young man, in your opinion? Could one think that he was older? • A.: The children were snatched away. The children were quite tall because I was quite big and so was my husband, so they were not (15)underdeveloped. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] But you told them that he was born in 1981? • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Have you returned to your house? (20) • A.: No. How can I go back? When we went to observe the 5th anniversary of this greatest massacre, I think the whole world was watching how they react, even today how they rally, the Cetniks, how they threaten and how they demonstrate their threats, and the security was such that we only just somehow managed to get through. (25)
JUDGE RIAD:
[Int.] Did you go back to see your house?
(5) JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Do you still have any relationships with your former Serb neighbours? Have you picked up those relationships, or are you completely separate now? • A.: I have no contact. I never saw them again. I did recognise a neighbour when they took my child away from me, and I was watching out for (10)them. I wanted to find them to ask them because I was hoping that perhaps he might have saved my son, because we were so close with all of our neighbours, not just them. But he was the only one I noticed there, and I hoped and prayed to find him, but I never managed to get in touch with him. (15) JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Have your neighbours changed their attitude towards you, or do they still have friendly feelings towards you? I'm talking about your Serb neighbours. • A.: You mean up to the time they took my child? You mean the neighbour I recognised? (20) JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Yes, and the others.
• A.: I noticed him, and I saw that he could recognise me, too, because
he cast a quick glance at me. We exchanged glances, and I thought that I
should scream out for him to save my child, but then I thought better of
it because I had heard from others that the neighbours were doing the
(25)worst things and so I thought maybe my child would fair even worse, so I
JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] And so you have no Serb neighbours around you; you don't visit one another at all? • A.: Probably there are some, but I have no contact with them. Simply, (5)we don't communicate. How do I know? I just can't believe that having the kind of life we had, that this could have happened, so I keep wondering. I don't know what to say to you, starting from myself and my children and onwards, further afield. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] So if you could remember, before this (10)happened, did you hear any talk of a plan of what was going to happen, or were you completely taken by surprise? In the media, on the radio, et cetera, were there any announcements as to what would happen? Were there any threats?
• A.: No. They worked together in various companies, their men and our
(15)men, the men in our neighbours' families. Our children went to school
together. We had land next to one another. When he had to collect the
hay, and if it was going to rain, we would help them to do it quickly, and
they would help us to collect the hay.
So you couldn't notice anything at all until we saw that they were
(20)loading their families into trucks and cars, with supplies, and driving
them away somewhere. I don't know where. Then someone asked, "Where are
you going? What's happening?" and then their answer was very vague.
"Some fools could come along and do who knows what. Of course, we won't
hurt you and you won't hurt us, we believe that, but some fools may come
(25)along." So they thought it would be better to move for awhile.
• A.: Not long before that happened. They didn't leave much earlier. I (5)forgot what I was going to say a moment ago. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Never mind. I'm not asking you for dates. The point is they left before. • A.: Yes. It was only after all these things happened that we thought about the reasons why they had left. Because they gave different answers; (10)some people said they were going to stay with relatives in Serbia, to do some kind of work there; others were saying they were going on holiday. They were giving different answers. Only after all this happened, we realised why they had left and where they had left to, their families and their children. But the men stayed behind. (15) JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] So you understood that they left in a collective manner; all the Serb families left together. • A.: No, we didn't really see them go together. But there were fields that belonged to them a little further away. Then some people would leave on one day and others on another day, and then somebody would say, "I saw (20)that family leave," and then the next day, someone would say, "I saw this other family leave." And we were wondering. Until then, they didn't do anything wrong. They didn't hurt us and, of course, we didn't hurt them either.
JUDGE RIAD:
[Int.] Thank you, madam. I wish you
(25)courage.
JUDGE WALD: I have no questions for the witness except to thank you for coming and sharing your very sad story with the Tribunal. I think (5)it will help us in making our decision. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Me too, madam, I have a very small question for you. Do you have anything that you would like to say and that has not been asked of you? (10) THE WITNESS: [Int.] I do. I wanted to say if I had known these people would betray us the way they did, those who had sworn to protect us and signed documents to that effect, I would have saved my family, my husband and my children. We could have sought shelter somewhere and at least we would have died together and our bones would be (15)together. I would have stayed in front of our house together with my whole family and let them all kill us together if I had known what would happen.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So, madam, I wish to repeat that
you are an extremely brave woman. You have said that the body lives, but
(20)perhaps the soul needs to gain strength from the little hands of your
son. You must continue living, at least if for no other reason than to
testify about all those events that you have shared with us and to avoid,
as you have said, that fools may appear again in the future. So that is a
very good reason to continue living.
(25)We thank you very much for coming here and we would like to wish a
THE WITNESS: [Int.] May I say one more thing, please? May I? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, go ahead. (5) THE WITNESS: [Int.] I would like to appeal to you to ask Mr. Krstic, if you can, whether there is any hope for at least that little child that they snatched away from me, because I keep dreaming about him. I dream of him bringing flowers and saying, "Mother, I've come." I hug him and say, "Where have you been, my son?" and he says, "I've been in (10)Vlasenica all this time." So I beg you, if Mr. Krstic knows anything about it, about him surviving some place ... JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, madam, I think all of us have heard your plea, and I think that all the people who are here and who can do something will do it. But I repeat, you have good reasons to (15)continue living. All the people here present and all those listening to us will do whatever is possible to do. We understand and feel for your suffering. I will ask the usher to lead you out now. Thank you once again for coming. (20)
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] Thank you too. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Ms. Magda. THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour, we have our next witness here
(25)ready to give testimony, and there are no protective measures in relation
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good. So we are now waiting for our next witness to be brought in. (5)Yes, Madam Registrar. THE REGISTRAR: I just wanted to say for the record that this witness that just left is pseudonym DD.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you very much. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, Ms. Zecevic. Can you hear me? THE WITNESS: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Could you please read the solemn declaration that the usher is giving you. (15) THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. WITNESS: JASNA ZECEVIC JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated now. Make yourself comfortable. Could you perhaps come a little closer to the (20)microphone so that we can hear you better. Ms. Zecevic, you will first be answering questions that will be put to you by Ms. Magda Karagiannakas. You have the floor. MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Thank you, Your Honour. • EXAMINED by Ms. Karagiannakis: (25)
• Q.: Witness, can you tell me your name and spell your last name for
• A.: My name is Jasna Zecevic, so last name is Z-e-c-e-v-i-c. I'm sorry. • Q.: That's all right. Before we get started, I'd just like to remind (5)you that we are both speaking the same language, but what we say has to be translated simultaneously into French and B/C/S, so that means that after I ask a question, I'd like you to talk a pause, a few minutes -- a minute or two break before you answer it. And I will do the same after you finish so that we give enough time for the translators to do their work. (10)What is your nationality? • A.: My nationality is I'm born in Croatia, and my father is from Bosnia, my mother is from Croatia, so we call it now "other." So my nationality is "other." • Q.: Where do you currently live and how long have you been living (15)there? • A.: I'm living now in Tuzla in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I'm living there for 30 [sic] years. JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me, you said your nationality is "other"? • A.: Yes, that's -- (20) JUDGE RIAD: What's it mean, "other"? • A.: It means that I don't have clear nationality because I live in Bosnia, and I'm not born in Bosnia, and I am a child of mixed marriage, so my father is Muslim, my mother is a Catholic. JUDGE RIAD: And they call you "others"? (25)
• A.: Yes, that is the term.
• A.: Yes. You have different nationality in Bosnia now, and there is some people who are not -- it's not Bosnian nationality because we don't have still Bosnian nationality. (5) JUDGE RIAD: But in your passport is written "other"? • A.: No, it's nothing. Nothing is written. It is Bosnian passport is nationality. I'm living in Bosnian. JUDGE RIAD: So you have the Bosnian nationality? • A.: Bosnian nationality, but it's not existing Bosnian nationality. I (10)mean, that's a special term we use in Bosnia. You can be in Bosnia a Serb, Croat, or Muslim, and "others." JUDGE RIAD: And others are mixed marriages only, or foreigners? • A.: Mixed marriages and foreigners and everyone who are not Croat, Muslim, or Serb. (15) JUDGE RIAD: They're called "others"? • A.: Yes, called "others". MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: • Q.: Witness, is the term "other" a term used in the census forms to describe people that are not Bosnian -- or sorry, Muslim, Croatian, or (20)Serbian? • A.: Yes, you are correct. • Q.: Thank you. Now, what are your academic qualifications?
• A.: I finished -- I'm an engineer of geology. I finish in 1989 on the
faculty of Tuzla, mining and geology, and in 1991 I finished post-graduate
(25)study in geochemistry, also in the faculty of Tuzla, University of Tuzla.
• A.: Currently I'm working in NGO at an organisation Vive Zene. It's a non-government organisation. Vive Zene what means "woman alive," and I'm director of that NGO. (5) • Q.: What is the aim of your NGO, and how was it established? • A.: So Vive Zene established in 1994 and established and with aim to provide the psycho-social support for the victim of war, to the women and children. • Q.: And how is your organisation funded? (10) • A.: My organisation is funded from European Community, with the donation from European Community, from Netherlands government, Switzerland government, some other NGOs from Netherland and from Switzerland, from Sweden also, and England. • Q.: What sort of programmes does Vive Zene run? (15) • A.: So we have one programme of psycho-social support which we implement in a different settings. We implement the psycho-social programme in the residential part. We call it psycho-therapy centre for women and children traumatised by the war. And also in the community work, the same programme, and on the ambulant way so that outpatient are (20)coming from time to time to the centre. • Q.: Does your organisation work in collective centres and refugee towns and --
• A.: Yes, that is what we call community work. So our
multidisciplinary team are working in the refugee settlements outside of
(25)Tuzla.
• A.: Multidisciplinary team is consisting two therapists for the women, psychotherapists for the women, two psychotherapists for the children, two (5)pedagogues who are working also with the children, three social worker, and one physiotherapist. That's -- we call it body therapist because she's working on a different way than usually physiotherapy. And the one doctor and one nurse. • Q.: How many people has Vive Zene provided therapy for since its (10)beginnings? • A.: From 1994 until January 2000, we provide all our service in stationary part for 124 women and 222 children, that is a residential part; and around 4.011 women in ambulant way and 28 children, but these 28 children is just who attend on a psychotherapy programme; and there is (15)more than 400 children what we treat in our pedagogical workshop in the community, in the refugee community. • Q.: Just to clarify a point, was it 411 women or 4.011 women that you provide ambulance service for? • A.: 411. (20) • Q.: Of the people that you have treated, how many of them come from the Srebrenica survivor community, and by that I mean people that came from Srebrenica after the summer of 1995? • A.: So that is in this number of stationary, what we treated in stationary concept, in stationary part, is 60 women from Srebrenica. (25)
• Q.: Have you provided any ambulance services to these women?
• Q.: What functions do you perform in your organisation now? • A.: At this moment as a director of the centre, I am responsible for (5)organising the life in the centre, organisational part, for the fund raising, for public relation, contact with the donors and assisting the women to organise their life inside the centre. • Q.: What does that last task involve? • A.: The last task we consider very important because the women who are (10)living in the centre, as they are traumatised, so they don't have this internal structure with what we consider the normal life, so we are trying, I am trying, to give them support in organising very normal and simple things, like cleaning the house, taking care about their children, so that they have to have back this feeling of normal. Certain time for (15)the breakfast, certain time for the lunch, so some rules to keep them in a normal structure. We are trying to give them back. • Q.: What other experiences have you had with the Srebrenica community? • A.: So with the Srebrenica community before the war I had also some experience because I worked for one month in mining -- my study was in (20)Srebrenica. So with the Srebrenica community I could describe or I can tell my experience of very calm and nice community with some patriarchal structure in their community, and after the war I have different experience because working and living with these women who came after the fall of Srebrenica. (25)
• Q.: How were you working and living with these women after the fall of
• A.: So I already told you about this helping and assisting them. During that time they are living in our centre, to assist them, to give (5)them back the strength that they can continue as much as is possible the normal life, and to be the family again. I mean, they are not complete family, but they are, because they have children. So it's very hard for them to understand that without the husband and without the men, they are the family with their children. So that is the main task what we have. (10) • Q.: And before you were director of Vive Zene, did you work for them in any other capacity? • A.: Before I become director, from 1996 I am director of Vive Zene, so I was working in Vive Zene from 1994 as translator with the psychologist from Germany, and she was treating the women traumatised by the war, and I (15)was translator in psychotherapy in the group and individual treatment. • Q.: And in that capacity, did you have any special contact with the women of Srebrenica? • A.: I didn't understand. • Q.: Well, when you were a translator, what sort of -- did you have -- (20)what was your first contact with women from Srebrenica? • A.: First contact -- sorry, first contact with women from Srebrenica from 1995, it was in airport Dubrave when they came in July when they came from Srebrenica, as translator with these women.
• Q.: Okay. Had the survivors from the Srebrenica community in 1995
(25)treated by your organisation come primarily from Srebrenica town or from
• A.: All of them we treat from 1995, they are coming from around Srebrenica, from the rural area. So they are not from the town of Srebrenica. But in that moment when they were from the town of (5)Srebrenica, that was the second time that they were refugees. When they came to Tuzla, that was the second time. The first time they came in Srebrenica from their villages, I think from 1993. So they lived for two years in this enclave, protected enclave, and in 1995 they came as refugees again to Tuzla. (10) • Q.: From your experience and contact with the women and children from this survivor group, can you describe the respective roles of women and men in their society? • A.: In the society of Eastern Bosnia, or I can say that in the villages in Bosnia not just in Srebrenica, I can describe it as a (15)traditional patriarchal family structure. So the point was that men were responsible for the family, so he was the one who made decisions, the decision-maker. He was working outside of the house, I mean public -- he was responsible for the public work; he earned the money. And the woman was responsible and worked in the house more and in the field. So she was (20)responsible for the children but she didn't make the decisions. So that was common not just in the Srebrenica population but also in other villages in Bosnia.
• Q.: Again, from your experience and contact with this survivor group,
can you describe the way in which the people living in the rural areas
(25)surrounding Srebrenica supported themselves?
• Q.: How important would you say that a house and land was to the people from this survivor community? • A.: Their house and their land was everything that they had, so that was their life. That's, for them, everything and only what they get -- (10)what they have. • Q.: In your opinion, was the societal structure and the respective roles of men and women in this society common and widely known in Eastern Bosnia? • A.: Yes, it was very well known and very clarified and divided, who is (15)the man and who is the woman. • Q.: I'd now like to turn to the issue of -- more specifically, how the Srebrenica survivor community that you have dealt with lives after the fall of Srebrenica. First of all, the issue of accommodation. What type of (20)accommodation do survivors generally live in? • A.: Now, at this moment, and after the fall of Srebrenica, they are living in collective settlements, refugee settlements, and so-called private accommodation. • Q.: What is a collective settlement? (25)
• A.: A collective or refugee settlement is supposed to be the place for
(10) • Q.: Do the refugees that live in these collective settlements own their houses or their apartments or their rooms? • A.: No. • Q.: Who owns those rooms? • A.: It belongs to the Bosnian country, I mean, to the government. (15) • Q.: How many victims from the fall of Srebrenica are living in the Tuzla municipality today? • A.: In the Tuzla municipality, it is around 7.000 refugees from Srebrenica from 1995. But altogether it's 140.000 refugees in the Tuzla surroundings. (20) • Q.: Now, in June of this year, you visited a collective centre with an investigator from the OTP who took a tape of your visit. I would now like to show you an excerpt of this video which I have previously shown you in my office, and I'd like you to comment on it after the end of the video, okay? (25)
MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Could Exhibit 386 please be played, and if we
MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: • Q.: Which collective settlement is depicted in that video? (5) • A.: This is the Spionica settlement. • Q.: How many collective centres are there in the Tuzla area which Srebrenica survivors live in? • A.: There is altogether eight collective settlements, and Srebrenica survivors are living in each. So they are divided in each settlement, but (10)mostly they are living in three: Spionica, Nihatovici, and Karaula. They are in each settlement. They are not divided, separate from the other refugees. • Q.: Those conditions which you have described and which we have now seen in the video, in Spionica, are they typical of what one might expect (15)to see? • A.: This, what you see, is one of the nicer - we call it nicer - settlements, and this, what you see, it is in the summer so it is very clean. After action we had, we were doing the cleaning of the settlement, together with the people who are living there. So there are others, like (20)Mrdici - we don't have it; I didn't see that - but Mrdici is on the top, on the surface of the former mining company. So during the summer you can't come with a car on top of that hill. This settlement, what we see, Spionica, during the winter, you saw the road, so it's very wet and you can't walk. (25)
MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 390.
• A.: Yes. • Q.: What is that a photo of? • A.: That is the same settlement you see, Spionica, just in a different (5)time. You see the children that are usually outside of the houses because they don't have any other place -- there is no infrastructure for normal life in such a settlement. So they are outside most of the time. • Q.: Is there a playground in this settlement? • A.: No. This is the playground, what you see, if you can call it a (10)playground. • Q.: Thank you. How would you generally describe the lifestyle of the Srebrenica survivors who live in these settlements, in these collective centres? • A.: The lifestyle? I will not call it a lifestyle because there is no (15)life in this settlement. So they are living in, you saw, the small, small rooms. They don't have any individuality, so they don't have any normal conditions for the -- especially for the children to grow up in such a settlement. • Q.: How do the Srebrenica survivors that live in these settlements (20)view them? Do they see them as permanent or temporary? Do they view them as their own?
• A.: That is a big problem because they see it just as temporary, and
they are living there for five years and they still feel that it's just
temporary. So they don't do anything. As you can see on this picture,
(25)they don't do anything around their houses. Even if they used to work in
• Q.: You mentioned that some Srebrenica survivors live in empty Serb houses. What is this accommodation generally like? • A.: Generally, this accommodation in empty Serb houses is more or less the same as the collective settlements. They are also in one room. The (10)government, they give them these places because there was no other places, there is not enough settlements. But they are maybe in a worse situation because they are split. These houses are not like this, together in one small community. So they are also isolated, more isolated than these people in the group. They are isolated in the settlement and they are (15)individually isolated. • Q.: Do the people living there own those houses or have any right to them? • A.: No, they don't have any rights. That is just temporary. They live just temporary because they have to go back one day. (20) • Q.: Of the Srebrenica survivor community that you and your organisation have dealt with, how many of them are employed?
• A.: The women we treat, there is just one woman employed and she was
employed after she finished some courses. It's not real employment. I
mean, she's cleaning the houses around, the flats, so she earns some money
(25)for her children. But generally there is no employment between the
• Q.: So from what source, if any, do they receive any income? (5) • A.: So the income, if they're lucky, they could get from the government, it's 300 Deutschemarks for the missing person. That's only what is officially allowed, 300 Deutschemarks, for one women and two or three children. • Q.: What do the survivor families have to pay from this 300 (10)Deutschemarks a month? • A.: Now, in this moment, they have to pay everything, the food, the clothes, everything that they need for the life of their children, to feed their children, to feed themselves, to pay -- they have some bonus for electricity that they don't have to pay in the collective settlements, and (15)everything after that, they have to pay. But it's usually not less -- not so much. And also they have to buy wood or oven or dishes, everything that you need to survive. • Q.: What standard of living would you say this income affords these people? (20) • A.: There is no standard. I can't talk about the standard in this condition. It is just that they have to survive somehow so they are surviving. There is no life standard in such a condition so ...
• Q.: Now I'd like to turn to another issue, and that is the
bureaucratic and social status of the Srebrenica survivors.
(25)What bureaucratic status do the Srebrenica survival women have?
(10) • Q.: What type of problem does this produce? • A.: In a bureaucratic way, view, way, this produced the problem that if she want to start a new life, for example, if she want to get married again and she have children, and usually most of them, they don't have documents that they were married when they came because of the situation, (15)how they came into Tuzla. So they have, according to our law, and maybe all the law in the world is the same, so they have to get married again for the missing husband, with some witnesses, usually that's mother-in-law or some cousin, so she is going with the children to get married with the missing husband, and then get divorced from the husband missing, and then (20)she has some status, so she is divorced. And then she can get married if she wants. But some of them don't do that because of the money they will lose, that is economic problem involved. • Q.: You mean to say if a woman wants to remarry, she has to go along to the town hall and marry a missing husband; is that right? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: Yes. If she doesn't have documents with her, then she can't prove that she has a husband, she has to have a witness. • Q.: Now, how many women from the Srebrenica survivor community that (5)you and your organisation have dealt with have remarried since the fall of Srebrenica? • A.: We have three cases but they didn't remarry. That is another problem. They wanted but they didn't. I didn't finish this. Because if they do that, they will lose their income, this 300 Deutschemarks. So (10)that's why they are -- we have -- the last cases, what we have, these women are in a big dilemma because of that. If she gets married, she will have the status of a married woman and she will lose this 300 Deutschemarks. If she don't have -- if she don't get married again, she will keep her income, but her child, she had a child with this man, will (15)be in a difficult situation because the child is not from the official marriage. So that's bureaucratic and economic and social problem. • Q.: Now I'd like to move on to another issue and that is the particular problems that the adult women survivors from Srebrenica have. What sort of problems do they commonly have? (20) • A.: I don't understand. Sorry. • Q.: What is the main problem that a woman from the Srebrenica survivor community has? What is the main problem that you have seen that they have?
• A.: The main problem they have with managing their life now without
(25)men, without husbands, and to keep this role of the woman that they are
• Q.: Do you have any examples you can provide of -- that illustrate (10)this problem?
• A.: Yes. I illustrate, there is many cases of these missing husbands,
but few women, they really had a big -- some big difficulties to manage
their life outside of the centre in Vive Zene when they was in Vive Zene.
So when they was coming in the centre and after few months they adapting
(15)to condition, what they are used to work in the centre, and then we try to
help them to go out and to handle their problems, what they have -- that
is, just small things about health care, documents for the health, books,
more books. So they have to go outside with the public transport or to
knock on some doors and to ask, to write some paper. That is the things
(20)that we are trying to help them, but not to do for them because if we do
for them, so it will be the same that we take role of their husbands.
So we are working on that, that finally they do that. And it was
very hard for one woman to do that, and she was shocked when she went to
the bus, and then she went to town. And Tuzla is very small town it's not
(25)big town. And she went in the centre for the social welfare just to ask
• Q.: Do you have any other examples of --
• A.: Yes, there is many. There was one woman also what was for her --
I mean, these are the cases what I'm talking now what was for them very
strange to do. For us it's very normal to have women do that, but for
(10)them it was -- there is in Tuzla one organisation, it's Bospor
[phoen],
it's name Bospor. They provide little credit, assistance for the refugee
women. So they organise few women, and they get this small credit, and
they can buy some sewing machine to earn some money or the cow to have
some food for themselves, and that way it is organised.
(15)So when we try to explain to our women, we call it our women,
Srebrenica women, that it could be also useful for them. So it is also
hard for them to understand that they could work first. When you ask them
that they can work, they said, "I have children." So that's explanation
for them because they are used to stay at home and work. They are very
(20)responsible at home. But when you tell them you can go out and work, then
she's -- it's strange for them.
So with this credit and Bospor organisation, in Vive Zene we are
trying to push them in some way, to help them to go in a normal life. So
they -- one of them, she took the credit, and the problem was that she was
(25)waiting for the long time to finish the paper in this office of Bospor.
• Q.: Now, Ms. Zecevic, and I'd like to move on to another topic and that is the particular problems that you see in the children survivors of Srebrenica in 1995. Can you describe -- can you tell me what those problems usually are? (15)
• A.: Usually the children who was in our centre and the children we
treat in the community, refugee community, and after missing -- all this
what happened in Srebrenica and growing up in such a condition as you can
see where they are living, they have a lot of problems with concentration,
first of all in the school. And it is, besides trauma -- I will not talk
(20)about that -- but the sitting in the small room with the whole family and
growing up with five years in one small room with the older people, and
you don't have your place for the playing, for the learning, reading,
anything, so there must be some consequences besides war and all what's
happened. So they have a problem with the concentration, as I mentioned.
(25)And they have the problem in the family that they took some wrong
(25)
• Q.: The adolescents from this community, are they employed?
• Q.: The young teenagers from the Srebrenica survivor community -- • A.: No, no. They are not employed. • Q.: What type of problems does the lack of income cause to them? (5) • A.: So the problem what they have -- this adolescent, you mean? Adolescent, they also don't have, I always repeat, the normal life because they don't have really normal life, so they spend their times all the day in front of these houses waiting that something happen. And they don't have any possibility to work. They sometimes clean some flats around, the (10)girls. The men, they are going in the market. Maybe you heard about Arizona. It's in a borderline of Republika Srpska and Federation. They do some black, black market or -- and then finally when they don't have anything else to do, so they get married. They get married very young in this community, in this refugee settlement. It's some solution for them. (15) • Q.: I'd like to move on again and ask you, in your experience, from your experience in dealing with the women in the Srebrenica survivor community, what generally is their attitude to returning to their homes? • A.: So generally all of them, they want to go back, and they would go back. But they -- deeply inside when you start to talk about that with (20)them, so they are very afraid, very afraid about going back. And they don't have trust any more, so they lost their trust. • Q.: Who are they afraid of?
• A.: So they are afraid of the neighbours, maybe, former neighbours
because they have very bad experience from Srebrenica and all other. And
(25)not just that they are afraid and they don't believe any more, so they are
• Q.: Now, the majority of people treated by your organisation are from the Srebrenica community, but do you also treat other victims of war trauma? (10) • A.: Yes, we treat, we treat them. • Q.: And what is the main difference between the victims of Srebrenica in 1995 and other victims of war trauma?
• A.: We treated -- the main difference for what we made conclusion is
this missing person. I mean, that is the first and the biggest difference
(15)that start to send phenomena of missing person is -- for these women
because you can't work in the process of recovery. They are stuck. They
are waiting position always. They are keeping their thought that husbands
will come back, that they will -- they are living somewhere. So you can't
work in the hill, and they can't move any step. So they are all in this
(20)waiting position.
But other people, other women we treat, they have their husbands,
they know that they are killed. So they see the graves, so they finish
with this mourning process, or they are in middle of the process. But
with the missing person they never start this process. So that is the
(25)big, big difference for our team to work with.
• Q.: Thank you, Mrs. Zecevic. MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I have no further questions. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Ms. Magda Karagiannakis. Ms. Visnjic, do you have any questions to ask of this witness? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, Your Honours, the Defence has no questions for this witness. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Visnjic. Judge Fouad Riad, but let me just remind you that we will need to have a break soon. • QUESTIONED by the Court: (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Ms. Zecevic, good morning. I gathered that your main
• A.: Our main problem is rehabilitation. JUDGE RIAD: Psychological and social? (5) • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: And in general, how many women do you have without, without husbands now? • A.: In our centre? JUDGE RIAD: No, the refugee settlement in general. Can you speak (10)for the whole thing? • A.: No, I don't know this information exactly. JUDGE RIAD: You don't know? • A.: I can just tell about our centre, in therapy centre. JUDGE RIAD: All right. Let us concentrate on your centre. (15) • A.: It is 60 women what we treat in our centre from Srebrenica from 1995, survivors from 1995 with the missing husbands; and 80 women outside of the centre in this collective settlement. JUDGE RIAD: Within these 60 missing husbands, how many are known to be dead, and how many are still in a waiting position, as you said? (20) • A.: Yes. They are all still in the waiting position. Just one woman get a paper. She didn't see the bones, but she get the paper from Red Cross that he -- that they find the body of her husband. It was in 1997. Just one woman.
JUDGE RIAD: Now, how much you think these women who have not been
(25)ready to face life, because you said it was a patriarchal society and were
• A.: If they have condition, if they have condition what concern infrastructure and income without husband, they could start, all of them (5)who passed therapy centre of Vive Zene, and they could start the normal life, so they can survive. With the condition I mean of infrastructure of income, of normal house and surrounding, nothing else. JUDGE RIAD: And is it being done? Is this in the process of being done, to give them this natural, normal life? (10) • A.: No, because they have to go back. They are still in the refugee settlement. JUDGE RIAD: Their only chance is to go back, no other possibility? These refugee centres cannot be changed into permanent residences. You know, refugees all over part of the world for 50 years (15)now. • A.: Yes, yes. It could be maybe in the future, they could be -- these settlements could be arranged and in each house one family lived. It could be arranged if it will be like that, but according to the data and everything, they have to go back. So it's not planned that they will stay (20)in refugee settlement. JUDGE RIAD: What about the children, is there education going on, or are they really lost in life?
• A.: They are going on now, but most of them, all of them, they missed
for at least one year of school. They will finish, but they have
(25)difficulties in learning, and they have difficulties with concentration,
JUDGE RIAD: So in your opinion as a therapist, this generation can be saved? (5) • A.: Saved? This generation will survive, I will call it that way. JUDGE RIAD: And the women? • A.: They survived, in this moment they survived. JUDGE RIAD: And how could they go back to a normal life? • A.: I told you, they could go back. It will never be a normal life (10)for them like they used to live before. It will be their life, the new life, and we are trying to help them with a new structure, with their children. So they will survive. JUDGE RIAD: Just my last question. How many institutions are like yours, like Vive Zene? (15) • A.: In Bosnia, there is just one other NGO. Medika in Zenica and Vive Zene in Tuzla; so there are just two institutions like ours, NGOs. But there is also the clinic and other governmental institutions. But Vive Zene and Medika in Zenica are just two organisations in the Federation to treat the women and children of Srebrenica and other refugees. (20) JUDGE RIAD: You are doing a great job. Thank you. • A.: Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Judge Riad. Madam Judge Wald. (25)
JUDGE WALD: Thank you.
(5) • A.: Yes. We treat just women and children without males. JUDGE WALD: So what do you think the effect of the lack of male role models, you know, fathers for children, both boys and girls, has? Is that a strong problem too, that they don't have adult working role models to model themselves after? (10) • A.: It's not just the men who are working that's important for them. I mean, the model of a father -- a missing father is a big problem and will produce the consequences later on, and I don't know which kind. It depends on the structure of children, the structure of life, what they have now. Certainly they will have some differences than the normal (15)family, but we could talk about that just after a few years. I don't know now. JUDGE WALD: Are you able to tell, among some of these adolescents that you talked about who are growing up, the survivors, are you able to tell their attitude toward going back one day to Srebrenica? In other (20)words, do they have any attraction toward going back, or is their only wish to get a way out into the bigger world? • A.: For the adolescents, for the young people, they don't talk about going back. They really don't talk -- their wish is just -- their dream is just to go outside, far away from Bosnia. Just that. (25)
JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
(5) • A.: The person who coordinates it is the psychotherapist. Do you need the name? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] No, not the name. • A.: A psychotherapist for the women, and she is the coordinator of the whole psychosocial programme in the centre. She leads that team. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] As part of your work as a therapist, is there a possibility for women to talk amongst themselves without the presence of a therapist? • A.: Of course there is. In the centre, they live like one family. So besides the therapist, the work with the therapist, with the doctor, (15)social worker, they have organised their life in the centre. They have their living room; they have their dining room. They are sitting together, drinking coffee, and talking about whatever they want. So they are talking also about their problems and what's happened with them. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] One of the problems that you (20)experience in your work is the problem of missing persons. You spoke about that absence and the way it affects the women. In your opinion, what is the way in which the children and the adolescents are experiencing this absence, the absence of the missing persons from their lives?
• A.: For the children and also for the adolescents, it's the same
(25)effects as for the mother, because it's a strange category for them. They
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Is there any way, any possibility for these people, women in particular, women survivors of Srebrenica, to take part in the organisation of the centre? (15)
• A.: Yes, of course. They are living with us so they are cooking in
the kitchen, they are helping our cooker. You mean in our centre? Yes.
So they also have -- we have meetings, I have meetings every Friday with
them, and we call it an organisational meeting. So they have their duties
but also their rights. So that is part of what we are trying to give
(20)them, from the patriarchal structure, to teach them that they have some
rights but they have to ask for the rights. We will not give them by
ourselves; they have to ask for the rights. So they have obligations,
they have duties, but they have also their rights.
That is part of the healing process. Besides the professional
(25)work of trauma and recovery and all kinds of therapy they get, this part
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] If I understand you correctly, there is work to be done so that there can be a change of standards, a change of cultural perceptions in their lives. Do you sometimes invite (5)other people, people coming from other cultures, or women who have different circumstances, who live alone, for example, who can come and talk to your women about their situation? • A.: Yes. We have a part of the psychotherapy centre -- what we have is we have one small social project in the school Dokanje, in the (10)surroundings of Tuzla, and that is where different people, a category of people, are living; that is, domicile people, refugees, and returnees. That is three different nations: Muslim people, Croats, and Serbs. So we have for Bajram, that's -- you know what Bajram is. The women from the centre of Vive Zene, we invite them to this and they have (15)like a party. It's not a party but they are sitting together. So we call that project social recovery and rebuilding the trust in these groups. So we make -- and we are working on this also in the refugee community, on integration. In the local community, even it is very hard, and we are doing that. We are trying to do the best from our side, but it's not -- (20)in a community of refugees, it's harder because they are isolated groups. But these women from the centre, they have contact with the project in Dokanje. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, then. I see that my colleague Judge Fouad Riad has another question for you. (25)
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Judge.
• A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: Good. Are there any women among the ones you have who are not Muslims who are married to Muslims and are left behind? (5) • A.: We had in -- but it's not a Srebrenica woman. I mean, in the centre we had in 1994 one woman from Gradacac and she was married to a Muslim. He was killed. She was in our centre in the first group, in 1994, with other Muslim women. She was the only one because all the refugees that were coming into Tuzla, it was mostly women. (10) JUDGE RIAD: The children from these marriages, how are they considered? • A.: You mean how they are treated? JUDGE RIAD: How they are treated, and to whom do they belong? • A.: They belong to the mother because they were with the mother in our (15)centre. Two boys, they were with their mother. JUDGE RIAD: So they are considered -- I mean, she was a Serb or a Croat? Whatever. The children are considered as belonging to the mother, or they are following the father's steps? • A.: The children stay with the mother. The mother raised them. So I (20)don't have a clear explanation for that because that is a big problem. You asked if they are Croats or Muslims -- JUDGE RIAD: How are they treated? What future do they have? • A.: They have a future the same, like all other children in Bosnia who don't have a father. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Yes, but which community is accepting them?
JUDGE RIAD: Is there a new community where there is no discrimination? • A.: In Tuzla there is no discrimination. (5) JUDGE RIAD: So you think that will be the future of this part of the world, no discrimination? • A.: Yes, I think in Tuzla -- especially in Tuzla it is a multicultural society. Others. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Ms. Jasna Zecevic. Thank you for coming, and we wish you a great deal of success in your work. I think that you have a very important task to perform, you and other persons like you who are willing to work in this area, which is extremely important for providing living conditions for victims who have (15)suffered, whoever they may be. I'm talking about all victims of all conflicts. So we wish you success in your work and a happy journey to your place of residence where there are many people who need you. Ms. Magda, I think there are some documents to be tendered into evidence. Yes? (20) MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to tender the video, which was Exhibit 386, and the photo, which was Exhibit 390, into evidence. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, any objections? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So these exhibits have been
MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: No, Your Honour, we have no other witnesses for today. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And for tomorrow? MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: We have one witness for tomorrow, the last witness for the Prosecution. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In that case, we will meet again tomorrow at 9.30. I wish you a pleasant afternoon, and bon voyage to the (10)witness. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.37 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of July, 2000, at 9.30 a.m. |
