Conversations With Rev Gary About KJOism

DISCLAIMERS: I do not agree with the anti - NIV comments and views in the following article. I also am disgusted that any clergy person would tell others that legitimate Bible versions -- that they personally do not think are accurate enough-- should be "thrown in the trash," as 'Rev Gary' states in this dialogue:

A Conversation With a "Rev. Gary" About KJOism

September 21, 2000

<Talon> welcome home, Rev

<RevGary> Thank you, Tal!
<Talon> have a good trip?
<RevGary> Yes we did...Got to see God move in some wonderful ways.
<RevGary> God really blessed the stuff I was involved in.
<RevGary> And, He blessed me with some nice "strokes" to boot.
<Talon> you went golfing?
<RevGary> <G>
<RevGary> The attendance at the conference wasn't what we had hoped for,
<RevGary> but we have come to understand why...
<RevGary> and it worked out great.
<RevGary> The Center is right across from D-Land...
<RevGary> two nights in a row, we left just in time for the fireworks show..
<RevGary> pretty spectacular.
<RevGary> one of the nights, I had just finished praying for some of the people...
<RevGary> the anointing was very strong,
<RevGary> and I was pumped up...
<RevGary> walked outside and "BOOM"...
<RevGary> ooh...aaaahhhh... fireworks....I thought,
<RevGary> "God, you are so cool."
<RevGary> My first thought was, the anointing is stronger than usual,
<RevGary> then I realized it was the D-Land fireworks.
<MP> Well, if you're going to be anointed, you might as well do it with stuff exploding in the air nearby.
<RevGary> Amen! [:)]
<MP> Well, I'm sure we're all glad you had a good time.
<RevGary> Thank you.
<MP> Except possibly ChanServ, but that's just sour grapes.
<RevGary> lol
<RevGary> What topic shall we explore this evening?
<Miz> I just searched the log from the last session and found no mention of a future topic, so it's wide open for suggestions
<RevGary> okay, you've had three weeks to come up with a topic.
<MP> Oooh! I've got one!
<RevGary> k MP
<Miz> ohboy, a topic
<MP> What's up with those people who think the King James Bible is the original, God-breathed version and everything else is heathen nonsense?
<RevGary> LOL
<RevGary> Let me pull out the file we created today
*** RevGary changes topic to 'KJV Onlyism'
<MP> heavensearth.gud?
<RevGary> nah, King James Onlyism Study
<MP> Ahh
<RevGary> First, and for the record, let me state that...
<RevGary> Even though they think,
<RevGary> "If the King James Version was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me."
<RevGary> The KJV is not only not the only legit bible, it has several errors in translation and uses an archaic language that very few understand.
<MP> Ahh, yes. Of course they used middle English in the Mediterranean desert regions 2000 years ago!
<SK> Did people back when understand it?
<MP> Most of them couldn't read.
<SK> So what good was it to have a so-called "Bible" around?
<RevGary> But, it was, in fact written in a modern language...for the year 1611.
<RevGary> Actually, one of the purposes of the KJV was to get the Bible into the hands of the common man...
<RevGary> and it did a wonderful job of it.
<RevGary> There are a couple of real problems with using the KJV as your only bible text today.
<RevGary> 1) the translators of the KJV recommended that students of the Bible study other translations in addition to the KJV.
<RevGary> (That is of course, the primary reason not to be a KJV Only-ite.
<RevGary> 2) We know more about the original languages and have more copies of original and early manuscripts today, than they did in 1611.
<MP> So you're saying it's the moral equivalent of "Gospel For Dummies" ?
<RevGary> Not necessarily for Dummies, but they recognized their work wasn't the best, or only, work done.
<RevGary> 3) there are at least 827 words and phrases used in the KJV that have changed their meaning or are no longer used in our modern English.
<RevGary> For example:
<RevGary> in the KJV,
<RevGary> advertise means tell
<RevGary> allege means prove
<RevGary> conversation mean behavior
<RevGary> communicate means share
<RevGary> take through means be anxious
<MP> This sounds really confusing
<RevGary> prevent means precede
<RevGary> meat is a general term for food
<MP> Some have argued that "wine" in scripture is also a general term for drink.
<RevGary> anon and "by and by" translate Greek words for immediately.
<RevGary> You can see, if the kjv is your only bible, you are probably going to miss some things.
<RevGary> Another example,
<RevGary> Who here can tell me what the word "succour" means?
<Miz> in modern usage it means "nurture"
[]KJV[] Hebrews 2:18 - For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
[]NIV[] Hebrews 2:18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
[]NASB[] Hebrews 2:18 - For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
<MP> I get "Relief, Aid, and "Help"
<RevGary> Very few people would have any idea of what Heb 2:18 means in the KJV.
<RevGary> What about "God speed?"
<MP> It's an idiom wishing someone well, innit?
[]KJV[] 2 John 1:10 - If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
[]NASB[] 2 John 1:10 - If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
<Miz> I'd say it means "good-bye"
<RevGary> nope, and nope....
<Miz> and I'd be wrong
<RevGary> how about "welcome"
<MP> Ahh
<RevGary> But in the above verse,
<RevGary> you would assume that you were not to bid the person goodbye,
<RevGary> when in fact, you are not to greet him...
<RevGary> could be a bit of a problem, doncha think?
<Miz> uh huh
<MP> Indeed.
<RevGary> Most KJV Only-ites also believe that the KJV was the first English bible...
<RevGary> But it was not.
<RevGary> So, basically, out of ignorance,
<RevGary> they have picked a translation somewhere out of the middle of all translations,
<RevGary> and determined that it is the only real Word of God.
<Miz> I did a little reading on this subject and discovered that KJV Onlyism includes the belief that each and every word chosen by the translators was directed by God...thereby making the KJV infallible
<RevGary> I, periodically, get KJV-Only-ites...
<MP> Ahh you went to the Dial-The-Truth page too, huh Miz?
<Miz> LOL, MP...I went to one of them, anyway
<RevGary> and, of course, each of them thinks that they can understand the KJV in it's entirety...
<RevGary> Most of the KJV Only-ites I've met can barely handle modern English...
<RevGary> makes it kind of hard to believe that they understand 1600 English.
<MP> Drat, Rev! I had a great crack about uneducated onlyists but I thought it was too snarky.
<RevGary> lol MP
<Miz> according to one site, the KJV being used today is the 6th revision since 1611...not counting the NKJV
<RevGary> That's right Miz
<RevGary> The NKJV is actually proving to be rather accurate.
<Miz> ah, yes...using the KJV, which is nearly impossible to understand, removes God to a "safe distance"
<RevGary> Funny thing about that Miz....
<RevGary> Most folks view the "Thee's and Thou's" as some kind of distant "holy" way to talk...
<MP> Ahh, yes. If it's gibberish to me, it HAS to be profound!!!
<RevGary> when in truth,
<Miz> exactly, MP
<RevGary> in the 1600's you only used thee and thou in the most intimate of relationships...
<MP> I thought Thee was the since-abandoned intimate form
<RevGary> for example, I would address MrsRev as Thee,
<RevGary> and Miz as You.
<RevGary> So, the Bible is translated (properly) as an intimate letter from God to us.
<RevGary> But, these jokers don't know it.
<MP> Who says the liberal arts don't teach you anything useful, eh Rev?
<RevGary> Amen, MP! [:)]
<RevGary> So, when the want to get all holy and pray, they use thee and thou.
<Miz> don't tell the Onlyists, Rev...if they knew they were addressing God using intimate terminology, most of 'em would freak
<RevGary> lol, Miz...that they would!
<MP> So the people who think that the KJV is the only true version are generally just reactionaries?
<RevGary> Mostly...I think it is promoted by teachers who want to control their followers...
<MP> Some heathen dog is trying to change the bible! Let's stand in front of his office with signs until he stops!
<RevGary> I sat in a KJV-only church for one service...
<RevGary> and the pastor was basically teaching the church the same stuff that the NASB had already done.
<MP> So he had to stop and explain a lot of passages?
<RevGary> Basically, MP, he stopped with each verse,
<MP> Ahh
<Miz> isn't there a translation a lot of people use that leaves stuff out completely, Rev?
<RevGary> Miz, that is the NIV...they left out several verses when they translated it.
<RevGary> I think the NIV is a rather dangerous translation.
<RevGary> and did the exact same translation work for his congregation,
<RevGary> that the NASB did for everyone with enough brain to buy it.
<Miz> any idea why they left some stuff out, Rev?
<RevGary> From what I understand, Miz, the board that translated the NIV had a rather "liberal" slant to it.
<MP> Is that so?
<RevGary> It is pretty clear that they weren't really buttoned up on the "power" side of the Word, when you compare passages with the NASB.
<RevGary> The NASB-Update is the most accurate word-for-word translation out there today.
<RevGary> How 'bout I give y'all a list of the better translations and books to use?
<Miz> I found a site discussing the shortcomings of the NIV...they're pretty hefty "shortcomings"
<RevGary> what's the site, Miz?
<Miz> http://hometown.aol.com/twarren11/niv.html
<RevGary> Personally, I use 8 or 10 translations including the KJV and the NIV and original language manuscripts.
<RevGary> If you really want to study the Bible...accurately..
<Miz> I use the Bible software mostly for looking up the meanings of words in the original, that is
<RevGary> which is generally a good thing when it comes to the Word of God,
<Miz> well, yeah...I can see where being accurate in understanding what God has to say would be a desirable thing [;)]
<RevGary> the very best translation is the New American Standard Bible, Updated Edition.
<RevGary> The next translation every Christian should own,
<RevGary> especially of the New Testament, is the Amplified Bible.
<RevGary> other good versions are the
<RevGary> New King James
<RevGary> and the New Living Bible....unlike the Living Bible, the NLB is not a paraphrase.
<RevGary> The Living Bible and the Contemporary English Version should both be thrown in the trash.
<RevGary> Those are good study tools, but most of them are NIV and should be used with a more accurate translation.
<Miz> I've looked through The Living Bible...it seemed a little...errrr...
<Miz> "heavily edited"
<RevGary> It is a paraphrase, Miz...but the New Living Bible is not.
<RevGary> Nave's Topical Bible is a wonderful study tool.
<RevGary> And, every Christian should have an exhaustive concordance for the translation they use.
<RevGary> parallel bibles are great tools too...
<RevGary> they take 2, 4, 6, or, 8 translations of the Bible,
<RevGary> and line them up verse by verse across the two pages,
<RevGary> so that you can compare what each of the translations says.
<RevGary> The one I use a lot is The Comparative Study Bible, A Parallel Bible...
<RevGary> it has the NIV, NASB, Amplified Bible and the KJV
<MP> Why are there so many kinds of bibles, then?
<RevGary> couple of reasons,
<RevGary> one being, the same reason there are so many different kinds of Christians.
<RevGary> The other being, they are translated to serve different purposes and reach different audiences.
<RevGary> For example, the Amplified is a great study tool, but a bit cumbersome to use as a daily reader.
<RevGary> For the folks that have computers...obviously everyone here...
<RevGary> PC Study Bible is a great tool.
<RevGary> It incorporates most of the tools I've mentioned.
<RevGary> Guess we pretty well (on the surface, anyway) covered the translations of the Bible issue.
<MP> Makes sense to me.
<MP> More than when we started, anyhow
<RevGary> good!
<MP> What do y'all want to talk about next Thursday?
<Miz> God stuff?
<MP> (Note correct use of "y'all" by lifelong rust belt denizen)
<Miz> Jesus stuff?
<Talon> sounds good to me
<Miz> Holy Spirit stuff?
<RevGary> Duly noted, MP.
<Miz> or, better yet, God/Jesus/Holy Spirit stuff
<RevGary> That'll work.
<MP> All three at the same time? there's a word for that...
<RevGary> <GGGGG>
<Miz> why yes, yes there is, MP
<MP> Either Trinitron or terabyte...
<RevGary> Triune God Stuff
<Miz> that'll work
<MP> Seriously though, we tend to get lost without planning a topic beforehand.
<RevGary> yep
<Miz> how about "Why do some people just absolutely refuse to believe this stuff?"
<Miz> *snicker*
<RevGary> <G>
<Miz> that started out as a joke, but the more I read it, the more it becomes a valid question
<RevGary> Actually, I think Miz's topic is the one we should use...
<RevGary> I'll tell y'all the reasons the Bible says..
<RevGary> people will refuse to believe this stuff.
<Miz> sounds good to me, Rev
<Talon> me too
<MP> Sounds like it could be interesting.
<RevGary> The Bible says there will be people that don't believe and why/what type of person won't believe.
<MP> Middle-aged drunks who think there are "Many paths" ?
<RevGary> LOL
<Miz> the "many paths" theory isn't, alas, confined to middle-aged drunks
<RevGary> unfortunately.
<Talon> it's available to drunks of ALL ages
<MP> LOL
<RevGary> I walked the path of "many paths" for ten years.
<RevGary> Got farther on the "one path" in one instant,
<RevGary> than on the "many paths" for one decade.
<MP> Is it true Satan's minions came up with that "Ring Around The Collar" campaign?
<RevGary> LOL
<RevGary> probably.
<Talon> ever listened to it played backwards?
<RevGary> dress rehearsal for one of hell's chambers.
<RevGary> ralloc eht dnuora ginr
<Talon> that's right
<RevGary> LOL
<MP> It DOES sound like speaking in tongues when you read it like that
<RevGary> <GGGGG>
<RevGary> Folks, I gotta git.
<RevGary> Good seein' y'all again.
<MP> Seeya later, Rev!
<Miz> okay, Rev...g'night
<RevGary> g'night

Original article appeared at http://www.garymills.org/sep21_2000.html

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