This guy challenged me to a debate via email concerning the validity of the Bible. I have a sick sense of humor and I enjoy laughing at stupid people, so of course I accepted...
Subj: Re: challenge
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 3:29:43 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Living4Jesus1990
To: C14Doc
Well, the thing is that I once believed that teh Bible was changed by men and very very subseptible to change and fallibility. Then I did the research and decided that, the way all the evidence pointed, it was true, archeological, Historically, even the gospels line up perfectly, and that what looks like inconcistances, were actually generation gaps for lack of a better term. Give me some, and you will see what I mean. I was not always Christian too, and humans did not teach me! Remember that as we talk. I am truely a Child of God.
Subj: Re: challenge
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 11:31:20 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: C14Doc
To: Living4Jesus1990
How can you assert that the Bible has not been changed by men when King James has his own version? (not to mention others) And what did you mean with your statement "...what looks like inconcistances, were actually generation gaps for lack of a better term." ?? Why does the Bible, if it is truly indelible, contain so many contradictions: "For all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." Jn. 15:15 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." Jn. 16:12 false prohpecies: God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so (Gen.2:17), he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5) The Bible is filled with things like that, not to mention preachings of intolerance, cruelty, insults to women, violence, sexual perversions, etc. I am also curious to your statement that you are a "Child of God." What do you mean by this? Do you feel that you are divine? You also asserted that the gospels "line up" historically, and that the Bible is archaeologically accurate. What is your basis for these assertions, and where did you obtain your proof? (note: "the Bible says so" is NOT a valid argument)
Subj: Re: challenge
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 8:16:52 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Living4Jesus1990
To: C14Doc
How can you assert that the Bible has not been changed by men when King James has his own version? (not to mention others) And what did you mean with your statement "...what looks like inconcistances, were actually generation gaps for lack of a better term." ?? Why does the Bible, if it is truly indelible, contain so many contradictions: "For all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." Jn. 15:15 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." Jn. 16:12
What was the King James Version origianlly but a chance for a team of scholars to come together and make a acurate dictation of the Hebrew and Greek. Verse 15:15 is true, those things that God the Father told Jesus to tell His disciples, He had told them. And there were many things (later told in Revelations and the writtings of the apostles through the Holy Spirit) So I am sorry to say, but that is not a contridiction. And the generation gap that I told you about, is a language gap per sa, our language and that of Hebrew and Greek are not very compadible languages. Those languages bring image and understanding where English is a language of only pur communication.
God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so (Gen.2:17), he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5) Ge:2:17: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Like Eve, you are twisting the word of God. And I am telling you that Adam died, you see there was no death until Adam sinned against God. He was eternal, significant, and was secure in God. But like Lucifer, man became greedy. Hence, no contridiction.
The Bible is filled with things like that, not to mention preachings of intolerance, cruelty, insults to women, violence, sexual perversions, etc
That one you need to get a little more specific. We are to be intolerant to those who take what God has given (and given with rules) and not just say those things are OK, but we are to love and there is a balance. The rest, well you either made thaqt up, which I do not believe, or you have missread, so you need to be more specific.
You also asserted that the gospels "line up" historically, and that the Bible is archaeologically accurate. What is your basis for these assertions, and where did you obtain your proof? (note: "the Bible says so" is NOT a valid argument)
The basis of these assertions as you put them, is a lot more than e-mail will let me write or send, but I will give you a example. For a long time, people decreed that the bible had flaws in it because of one word Nazerine. No where in any Historical dig, did this place exist. then a slab of stone with the word Nazarene on it in 1878, inscribed with the decree from Emporer Claudius (41-54) that no graves should be disturbed or bodies extracted or moved. This type of decree is not uncommon but the disturbing fact is here that "the offender [shall] be sentenced to capital punishment on [the] charge of violation of [a] sepulcher." (Hemer BASHH, 155) Other notices found on this expedition and ones to follow, warned of a fine, but never capital punishment. A likely explination of this is that the emporer, having heard of the Christian doctrine of resurrection and Jesus' empty tomb while investigating the riots of 49, decided not to let any such report surface again. This would make sense in light of the Jewish arguement that tthe body had been stolen (Matt. 28:11-15). THis si early testimoney to the strong and persistant belief that Jesus rose from the dead. (Geisler, BECA, 48). I am sorry, but the truth is that the bible still stands infallible, and to answer your question, no I am not divine, but I do have a Father by adoption through Jesus Christ as my Savior. And Jesus guides me, and I talk to my Abba, so by definition and acceptance, I am a child of God! How can you say that there are any contridictions at all without presenting any real evidence, and by not twisting the word of God?
Subj: Re: challenge
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 9:40:58 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: C14Doc
To: Living4Jesus1990
Verse 15:15 is true, those things that God the Father told Jesus to tell His disciples, He had told them. And there were many things (later told in Revelations and the writtings of the apostles through the Holy Spirit)
you're using the Bible to prove the correctness of the Bible. That's called circular reasoning, and it doesn't wash.
Like Eve, you are twisting the word of God. And I am telling you that Adam died, you see there was no death until Adam sinned against God. He was eternal, significant, and was secure in God. But like Lucifer, man became greedy.
How do you know I am twisting the word of god? did god tell *you* specifically what he *really* meant? I am only showing that the Bible states one thing and then states something completely different. As far as your archaeological "evidence," I am sure that the places mentioned in the bible probably did exist somewhere, but only because the bible was written by men who lived in and of that time period. just because a location was discovered that is also mentioned in the bible does not translate into the entire bible being correct. Why hasn't anyone ever found the remains of any of the biblical characters?
You asked about some of the violence, sexual perversion, etc in the bible....well here ya go:
Violence: "And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." Ex. 12:29-12:30
Cruelty: God buries alive Korah and his family. Num.16:27-35, 26:10
Intolerance: "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. Ex.22:18 Hate the sinner -- or God will pour his wrath out on you. 2 Chr.19:2 God "will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel." Zeph.1:8
Sexual misconduct: Noah, the just and righteous. Gen.7:1 Noah, the drunk and naked. Gen.9:20-21 Judah impregnates his daughter in law. Gen.38:16, 18 Ammon rapes his half-sister. 2 Sam.13:11
I'm sure to you, I am just "twisting" the words of your good book, but, I am only citing passages. I don't know how you can conceive that I am twisting the meanings - that would infer that *you* knew exactly what god *really* meant, and, unless you are a master of the hebrew and greek languages AND you are divinely inspired...I highly doubt your precise and deep understanding.
Subj: Re: challenge
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 6:19:44 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Living4Jesus1990
To: C14Doc
Using truth to correct mistakes about the truth is not circular reasoning, I really want to start there, if you want to call it false, then the total sum of the whole must be false, but if put together as a whole is truth , than it is truth!
Subj: Re: challenge
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:10:05 AM Eastern Standard Time
From: C14Doc
To: Living4Jesus1990
ok, you're not using "truth" to prove "truth." Truth would be something that is concrete, testable, and provable, with supporting scientific evidence. If such evidence existed for the entire Bible, then there would not be the controversy that there is. (granted, locations and cultures mentioned in the Bible did/do exist, but that does not mean that the Bible is 100% true) Your reasoning IS ciruclar reasoning, because in essence what you're saying is "I know the Bible is correct, because it is the Word of God, and I know it is the Word of God, because it says so in the Bible." That is no different from me saying "I'm right because I say I'm right, and I know I'm right because I say so." you said "...if you want to call it false, then the total sum of the whole must be false, but if put together as a whole is truth , than it is truth!" That barely makes sense. You're arguing something by means of a mix of blatant assertion and magically acquired knowledge.
My friend here then changed email addresses, notified me of the change, and then when I asked him if we were continuing our debate, he asked me to remind him what we were talking about because he "had several conversations going." uhh...ok. ever hear of reading old mail? personally I think he was just trying to get out of the argument, because I forwarded him a copy of the last letter I sent him and I have yet to recieve a reply.