alienated: I read a lot of Courtney's interviews online and saved some of my fave bits, here they are for your enjoyment. She talks about amongst other things her taste in women and men [porn girls and feminine men] gives advice ["and when you read fashion magazines, try to let them give you a jolt but not get into your life. Try to be Italian abut things - like, I'm here and I'm fabulous! And you can be fabulous, too!"] about losing her virginity in liverpool, about Kurt ["One minute he's a leader, a voice for a generation - next minute I'm spoon-feeding him cereal and f***ing his life up"] and about sleeping with girls. There's also some of the interview she did with Pamela Des Barres the famous groupie [Courtney: "to me rock 'n' roll is about being sexy, and watching guys that make you want to fuck them". She talks about how she stole someone's drummer and drove him crazy. And on groupies she says: "that's such a waste of female energy and I hate it". Also about cutting herself onstage] And finally she gives some more tips: A) Stop counting calories! Okay? B) Do not get on a scale! Skip the butter and skip the cheese and you will lose weight. I lost FORTY POUNDS by not eating cheese. And I even ate a little mayonnaise...
[Courtney 99]
People are either picking on you, or you're lashing back at them. Do you ever get sick of the anger?
American culture doesn't leave enough room for anger as a healthy outlet. When you go to Spain, Latin America, France, different cultures, you get a real perspective on how women are allowed to be more expressive. They're allowed to be romantic, sexual and angry. It's good to let it out. In this country, if you show the slightest bit of anger, you're pegged as doomed. I got a big mouth. I express anger in songs, I'm not afraid of anger. I was raised in institutions [juvenile halls] and by my mother, who was a feminist, and I never knew there was anything to be afraid of -- there wasn't fear attached to being furious. I can go decimate a guitar and then be happy as a clown and tell jokes five minutes later. Over the years, my anger hasn't been aimed at anybody specifically. It's isn't personal.
Chicago. Hole is playing the last song of the concert, when Courtney asks the crowd to show her their tits. Thousands do, and she says, "Nice tits," to a chick in the front row. Then she takes off her own top.
I'm not trying to be a pervert, but do you think you're sexy?
You're not a pervert. I know I'm sexy, but big deal. Every little girl I pull up onstage is sexy.
Have you ever done the dive on a girl?
I don't really go there that often. I'm heterosexual, for the most part. But just say I'm looking a this chick right here. She's Italian, 180 pounds, completely confident. Next to her is her WASPy cousin, who's 110 pounds -- all she does is live wondering how skinny she can be. Whereas the Italian chick, she loves to eat, she loves to fuck. Who are you going to go out with, Tony? I'm going with the Italian girl. The WASP can have her bony ass, I don't really care.
Get to the freaky part already.
What are you talking about, you crazy boy? The point is, women need to get off after a certain age. I got my mojo working. Some women can be completely gay. I'm not one of them. When I do it, though, I like really trashy porno girls.
Gross and nasty, you dirty thang?
Like porno 44DD, and they have to be really aggressive. Otherwise, why bother?
I once went to a threesome club.
A threesome club? When you're doing that threesome thing, one of the girls acts as the baby, right? Somebody's got to be the baby. My problem is that everyone fantasizes that I'm gonna spank them or something. They think I'm really big and dominant. Wrong. If I'm gonna go there, I'm the baby. Speaking of how people perceive me, what kind of guys do you think like me?
The kind of guys who think you're big and dominant.
I have one type of guy I date, from my first boyfriend to my present boyfriend: slender, fair, smart, 5-foot-9 -- I never really go that tall. I like feminine guys.
New York. On the daytime talk show The View, Courtney sits at the table with the four hosts who, that day, kaffee-klatsch about eating disorders and the spread of bulimia in Fiji.
Do you eat like a horse?
After a show, I have a turkey sandwich waiting for me.
Talking about that sandwich is the first thing that's brought a smile to your face in five days.
Yeah, I know. When I get offstage, I could eat three human beings and fuck three human beings. That doesn't happen with acting -- usually I retreat to my trailer. I play a rock show and could just eat, smoke and guzzle, guzzle, guzzle. It's raging. But sometimes I keep an acupuncturist nearby who can diffuse my adrenaline. This is better than how I used to diffuse it, you know what I mean?
Ever had any major weight issues?
In the late 80s, and then when I was a drug addict, I was fatter. But now I know from Drew that weight doesn't matter, in terms of physical sexuality.
Are there things you would just do for the money?
Playboy. They asked me, but they're not gonna give me $2 million. Money's not everything. I turned down a lot of money to play Janis Joplin and junkies in movies. I'm not gonna play junkies [again], they need to stop asking 'cause it's never gonna happen. I don't need the money, I don't need the fame, so why the hell am I gonna do it? I already did it live... for real.
Funny, but it turns out that after everything nasty that's been written and rumored about Courtney Love this decade, we are not her toughest critics - she is. Maybe that explains her drive and constant evolution. And maybe that's the key to the whole damn thing.
I don't understand why pride is a sin, do you?
Some women aren't proud of themselves, and I'm the same, but not just as insecure as most. I really do believe I could be the president if I want. Nothing has ever shaken my confidence. For some reason I'm blessed... I've got the confidence. It's a part of my body. I am this whole art of American woman-hood that people misrepresent. I got this gift from God. I have it, you can't take it away from me.
[Courtney 97]
Are you saying you denounce your earlier persona, the screaming Courtney in the baby-doll dress?
No, are you kidding? I'm so proud of myself. I worked with anger, with the darkest thing in the world. What is art if not that? I stumbled onto an archetype, and I had no idea what I was doing. I walked out of a subculture into a mainstream culture, with a totally cocky attitude, and I was humbled. I always thought that I'd get trouble, because I'm not normal, but I had no idea.
It sounds like you lost control of the archetype.
When Hole was first playing, I was embracing life fully. But there was the later period when bad things happened. Someone should have locked me in my damn house. You don't just go through something like [Cobain's death] and walk out onstage. It's too much. I think it was amazing performance, because you can't get any more real, but at the same time, some of my psyche got damaged by it.
To get parts in Hollywood you have to unbearably thin. Actually, the women consent to it. We look at each other's stomach to see whose is concave. It's a power tihng. I know I had a enormous resentment against Gwen [Stefani, of No Doubt] working her abs on teen-age girls. But did that make me hypocritical? I don't know. I want to be healthy. I want to take care of myself. And if working out makes me thin, I'm sorry. It's my metabolism. Oh, God, I sound like a model. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to.
You are thin, but you aren't 95 pounds.
I proved I could do that if I wanted to, when I lost all that weight for Larry Flynt. And let me tell you, when I was 105 pounds, I never felt so vulnerable to men in my whole life. I was treated like a little doll. Considering what I was going through on that film, it was wonderful. The men I was around were exceptional, so I had that really lucky break.
So, what would be your beauty and fashion advice for the average woman out there?
Health. Mental health about your body image. Lots of yoga or dance or movement. Start soccer teams and beat each other up. Because women won't admit that they're competitive. Have confidence. Take a lot of vitamin C. Yogi teas are really good. And when you read fashion magazines, try to let them give you a jolt but not get into your life. Try to be Italian abut things - like, I'm here and I'm fabulous! And you can be fabulous, too!
[Courtney 94]
Hole are, to all intents and purposes, Courtney Love. And Courtney Love is a one-woman spite factory, spewing out bile and savaging anyone who dares cross her. But she's not just a pretty hate machine. As Caitlin Moran discovers on the eve of the release of Hole's shattering new single and album, the divine Ms. Love has plenty to say about everything from the Roman Empire to losing her virginity in a Liverpool council flat.
"I want this printed. This has never been set down in ink before. I lost my virginity in a council house in Liverpool, listening to "Isolation" by Joy Division, to a guy called Michael Mooney, who hung around with Teardrop Explodes. After we'd done it I went across the road for cigarettes and I had all this blood and fluids running down my legs. Luuurgh, real graphic. I want you to print that."
We're in the Roosevelt Hotel. It's 2am. Courtney has scrubbed all her photoshoot makeup off, turned on MTV and kicked off her shoes. The whole day has been spent freezing and grinning for a style magazine front cover. Around midnight, she called a halt, piled the rest of Hole into guitarist Eric's van, and gate-crashed a frat party in the suburbs. She posed enthusiastically in front of a "Needle Exchange Scheme" poster, and pinched cigarettes from students, informing them that she wasn't "That bitch" Courtney Love, but Michelle Rodrigez; and when things started getting nasty and cans started getting thrown around, she left in the flick of an eye. She throws herself down onto the bed, turns on her tape recorder, and a eight-hour tour of her life begins. Rarely can one journalist have been so entertained.
"Evan Dando and I were in New York on tour. It got to two in the morning and we had our guitars out, playing each other our songs," she starts, lighting another cigarette. "And we just had a little argument about whose songs were best - we couldn't decide. So I went down onto the street and got this whore, asked her to come up to my room and judge for us. Obviously, she was a bit dubious, wanted to bring her friend, so I was like fine, here's your money. We played them about 10 songs altogether, and they decided - suprise! - they liked Evan's best. He was being altogether charming; played them that one about being a booger which seems to have a strange effect on women" Courtney rolls her eyes. "Like I'd be impressed if a guy compared himself to snot. But the whores were really into it now, they didn't want to leave. So Evan rang down to reception, acted out this scene that was so clever. Picked up the phone, paused for a minute, made this face" (Courtney screws up her face into mock horror) "And he said, 'My wife is here?' Bang, they were gone in a second. I really like Evan. He's just so cool with everything."
In the background, the mute TV flicks up a Nirvana "Unplugged" session. Kurt has been on screen for three, maybe four frames. Courtney spins round and stares at the TV, turns back after a minute, a wonderful proud, hungry look in her eyes. "I can smell him," she says.
"I dunno, people just - there's this insane attitude about women which really f***s me and my plans up. All this shit about me and Kurt - 'She's just a money grabber gold digger bitch whore slut.' Let's get one thing straight: I adore him. I worship him. I went through all the shit and pain and inconvenience of being pregnant for nine whole f***ing months because I wanted some of his beautiful genes in there, in that child. I wanted his babies. I saw something I wanted, and I got it. What's wrong with that? What's so f***ing bad about getting what you want?"
People say you've bewitched him, that he's just a simple-minded guy and you...
"Well, Jesus, don't flatter him all at once. One minute he's a leader, a voice for a generation - next minute I'm spoon-feeding him cereal and f***ing his life up. Kurt went after me. I wanna tell you about how we finally got together. Hang on a minute..." Courtney goes into the bathroom and leaves the door open, shouting the story out. "I was going out with Billy Corgan - for my sins, for my sins, we all make mistakes - actually f*** it, no, he's stuck up for me. Billy's ok. He was good in bed. Very good in bed. Anyway, I was with Billy, and I went on tour with him in Europe." Courtney comes out of the bathroom, jumps on the bed and lights yet another cigarette. "They [The Pumpkins] were playing some festival with Nirvana, and I stood on the side of the stage and Kurt was drunk, really really drunk, staggering all over the stage. He started singing a song in a really high voice about me, he and Dave [Grohl] were making jokes about me and Billy, and it was so embarrassing. I was squeezing Billy's hand digging my nails right in"
"Anyway, the dressing-room was covered in graffiti about me, which I found out later Kurt had done, because he was jealous of Billy. And all round Europe, the Pumpkins played in venues a week after Nirvana, and every dressing room had something scrawled in it from Kurt. There were hundreds of weird coincidences. I didn't initially go after him. I wanted him to date Kat [Bjelland, from Babes in Toyland]. I tried to get them together. So everyone can stop all this shit now." (Courtney pauses for breath.) "It's the lying I can't stand. It's the lying that gets me down. One thing this last terrible year has proved: if you lie about us, I will hit you, Kurt will shoot you, and we will sue."
Have you ever had sex with a girl?
"Lots!" How many? "Well, can I say first there's no such thing as bisexuality, no such f***ing thing. You definately have a preference - everyone has a preference. I've had a lot of sex, a lot, and I've f***ed, I dunno, 14 girls? Fifteen? But when it comes down to it, I just want someone to stick it in, y'know?"
Courtney stretches on the bed like a kitten and yawns. "I gotta baby I gotta go home and see," she says, rubbing at a smudge of mascara under her eye. "I'm gonna go now." She hugs me, then kisses me goodbye. "I've decided I like you," she says, lolling in the doorway for a minute. "You're loud - loud and smart. Most loud girls are stupid. Or people think they are..." She sucks on her bottom lip, pauses, then pushes herself off the door frame and heads down the hotel corridor, coat wrapped tight, hugging herself to stop from falling apart, tipsy with tiredness.
For one brief moment Courtney looks like Madonna in the "Justify my Love" video, but with more class, way more class. At the end of the corridor, she turns around just one more time. "Remember," she hollers, so that rooms 1500 through to 1589 are brutally awoken, "if you write anything nasty about me, I'll come round and blow up your toilet." And she disappears into the lift.
[Courtney interview extracts Feb 94]
CL: (laughs) Well, in your time things were probably a lot different than they are now. Which is why, in some ways, I'm really excited to do this interview with you. In other ways, I don't want to identify myself with you, even though I totally do identify with so much of your life. But you know, it's that word...
PDB: The "G" word? (groupie)
CL: Yeah. That's why I wanted to talk to you, about your experiences and how artists today, particulary women artists, relate to them. How the energy that you had in the 60s is so similar to ours. Because to me rock 'n' roll is about being sexy, and watching guys that make you want to fuck them.
PDB: Absolutely, I mean lots of guys, or even girls, start bands to get laid. Gene Simmons told me that was the reason he started Kiss.
CL: I don't think most girls really do that. Although an old friend of mine in another band went through a phase where her whole thing was like, I'm going to fuck sixteen-year old cute guys all over the land. But that's fairly unusual. I mean, on a physical and mental level, sex is not the same for women as it is for men. And sexuality is also different. Or should be different. But I've noticed that a lot of girls in bands will do this whole androgynous thing, and even though sometimes I think it's natural, other times, I think it's a way of them saying: "Look, there's something wrong. There is a weakness in the female character, so I'm going to cover it up and I'm going to create this masculine persona." That's sort of what PJ Harvey does. I mean I love PJ Harvey, but fuck that, I am not just like a guy. None of us in this band are (to Eric) Well, Eric is (to PDB) It's so sad when Eric gets left out of these interviews.
CL: Oh, this is such a sad story. When I left Minneapolis and moved to L.A. I took this guy's drummer with me and basically broke up his band. Me and the drummer lived together for a little while - until I drove him crazy. You know, I did this Yoko Ono job on him. He was so beautiful, and then... he was broke. I was broke. I was like, "I'm going to work in an escort service if you don't sell your stereo." It was pretty pathetic. But that's when I decided to go to Alaska, because I needed to get my shit together and learn how to work. So I went on this sort of vision quest. I went to Alaska to dance. Actually, to strip.
PDB: Why did you do that?
CL: My little trust-fund ran out. It was a tiny trust-fund, but suddenly I had no money at all. So I got rid of all my earthly possessions. I had my bad little strip clothes and some big sweaters, and I moved into a trailer with two crack chicks who turned tricks on the side at the club where we danced.
PDB: That was really ballsy of you. But why did you go to Alaska?
CL: Alaska just seemed like the farthest place that I could go to get away. And it was dark all the time while I was there, so I kind of figured that no one could see me (laughs) But before I left L.A. I looked up strip clubs in the yellow pages. I realized I couldn't work at The Seventh Veil or Star Strip at that time because I was fat. Later, when I lost weight, I did work in those clubs. But then I had to quit because they kept playing songs from Faith No More. There's nothing worse than having to dance topless to your old band.
CL: But you know, on my way back from Alaska I stopped in Seattle on the Greyhound, and when I got off I had little visions of Kurt (Cobain) and Mark (Arm) in my head - not in a sexual way, but in that way that... Because every town has its sort of rock star icon guy, the king of the town. And in my head I was like, Yeah, when I get my band together, you're going to open for me. Which is a great way of taking that energy, that sexual energy that comes from rock, and changing it.
And that's part of the reason why I have such a problem with the whole groupie thing. You know, the whole we're-backstage-and-we're-going-to-blow-a-roadie thing. I just think that's such a waste of female energy and I hate it. Like I remember one night Roddy (Bottum of Faith No More) was opening for Billy Idol at the Forum, and I went backstage for the show. Whenever I had to go to these horrifying events, like VIP parties, I made sure I wore no makeup and a big Vietnam jacket and put grease in my hair so that I could separate myself from the other women there. When I went into the bathroom that night and saw some of these girls standing in front of the mirror, I thought: If I gave each one of you a guitar and showed you how to play, you'd be repulsed. You wouldn't even want the power.
PDB: Did you ever think of yourself as a groupie? Or did you always just want to play?
CL: I wanted to be a groupie, but I wasn't really pretty enough. There is one heavy metal rock star I slept with. It's a fairly well-known fact, but I can't tell you who it was. It's so goddamn embarrassing. So, yeah, I did score one in my yellow tube top and my red painter pants (laughs) Back then there was this girl that I would hang out with who was pretty bottom of the barrel. She could never really get past the road manager. And when she did she would get to, like, drummers. To me the whole thing was, Is this your dream? That this guy is going to fall in love with you and take you away and marry you?
PDB: That was my dream.
CL: But my dream was, when I saw those lighters go up at the end of the Van Halen show at the Portland (Memorial) Coliseum, Why do guys get to do this? I'm making no judgment on your dream, but...
PDB: In my time there weren't too many other options.
Patty Schemel: (to PDB) Have you read Peggy Caserta's book on Janis Joplin?
CL: First sentence: "I was stark naked, stoned out of my mind on heroin, and the girl lying between my legs giving me head was Janis Joplin." It was so fucking sick. But there's a martyr for you - Janis. First of all, she was nominated for Ugliest Man on Campus at the University of Texas. She came to San Francisco once, got too strung out, started hanging out on Columbus and Broadway, back when Columbus and Broadway was sleazy. I loved it when it was sleazy - the way it was when I was in Faith No More and living in the Europa Hotel and my window was the corner window with pictures of Carol Doda's tits all over it. That was also during my Iggy Pop phase, when I used to cut myself onstage.
PDB: You used to cut yourself onstage?
CL: Yeah, See? (shows PDB her scars) I really lived it back then. I just thought I was rock or something. Now I realize that there's a certain detachment one must have from all of that. Being a female performer, the whole dynamic of an audience is different. Like we toured once with Mudhoney, and Mark (Arm) would stage-dive every night (lowers voice) I was so in love with that guy (laughs) In fact, it was sort of a contest there for a while between Kurt and Mark over who was going to end up being the love of my life.
Anyway, one night Hole was in London performing. We had just gotten off tour with Mudhoney, and I decided to stage-dive. I was wearing a dress and I didn't realize what I was engendering in the audience. It was a huge audience and they were kind of going ape-shit. So I dove off the stage, and suddenly, it was like my dress was being torn off of me, my underwear was being torn off of me, people were putting their fingers inside of me and grabbing my breasts really hard, screaming things in my ears like "pussy-whore-cunt." When I got back onstage I was naked. I felt like Karen Finley (laughs) But the worst thing of all was that I saw a photograph of it later - someone took a picture of me right when this was happening, and I had this big smile on my face like I was pretending it wasn't happening. So later I wrote a song called Asking For It based on the whole experience. I can't compare it to rape because it's not the same. But in a way it was. I was raped by an audience - figuratively, literally, and yet, was I asking for it?
That's when I started trashing stuff, because I was like, Why can't I have the same contact with the audience that all these guys do. I think I did about $5,000 worth of damage that night. I broke my favorite Rickenbacker (guitar) And we were a poor band. I mean, I was so broke (laughs) But later I read in some rock 'n' roll book that I was the first person... the first girl to smash my guitar onstage. I guess they weren't counting Wendy O. Williams.
PDB: Do you see yourself as someone who likes to provoke people?
CL: No, Not at all.
PDB: (incredulous) So you're really not doing any of this stuff on purpose.
CL: Honestly, I just want to play.
[Courtney 1990]
Courtney: Okay, like "Retard Girl", that's our single. It's about getting picked on in school, anyone who's ever been picked on in a big way, or a small way. I just got this vibe one day about how when I was in school I was really shy and sort of picked on, and I swore that I would never pick on people who were picked on. I pick on people that nobody else picks on. People think that song is making fun of some retarded girl but it's about me! About that feeling of alienation. I was so quiet. I was the quietest person and I got picked on but I CHANGED MY WAYS!
more Courtney interview extracts
C: You know what? I was doing "Loveline" on KROQ, and Lydia sent this fax in that said like, "You'll never be smarter than me. Stop trying to copy me..." So I read it out over the air and I said, "Lydia, I've been copying you since I fucking heard of you. You're the best thing on the planet. I give you more tribute than anybody else and I love you and I wish you wouldn't be so mad at me. And, Lydia, if there's anything I can do for you - if there's anything philosophical, tax-deductible thing that I can contribute to you - you know how to get in touch with me."
C: I have a tip! I lost 40 pounds, and I have a real tip. I was fat from 14 to 24. When you're fat like I was - which is five feet eight inches and 150 to 170 pounds - you do not get to fuck the boys you want to fuck. Right?. . . Right?
L: Perhaps.
C: The minute I got skinny and got a nose job and became photogenic, all of a sudden I had a bidding war, and every boy I ever wanted, wanted me.
L: What's your tip?
C: The thing you gotta do is A) Stop counting calories! Okay? B) Do not get on a scale! 'Cause lean muscle weighs more than fat. All right? I cut out FAT! That's all you gotta do. FAT! No cheese. That's it, Lisa. Period. NO CHEESE. I told this to KROQ, I told this to my nanny. People I tell this to lose 10, 30 pounds. STOP CHEESE. You know why the Orientals are not fat? 'Cause they look on cheese as this gross Western habit - it's like sour mild, LARD. They don't want anything to fucking do with cheese. If you're gonna eat cheese, take it out on a picnic, cut it up carefully, and really taste it - with wine or something. Don't melt it on shit. And I lost FORTY POUNDS by not eating cheese. And I even ate a little mayonnaise. All right? Skip the butter and skip the cheese and you will lose weight. I swear to God, Lisa. I was a fat girl my whole life. No one would fuck me, and when they did they'd do things like fart in front of me.
C: They bring in all these fucking people: makeup people, stylist people. All they are is gossips. When I did the Spin cover, I put 'em all in the kitchen and made them all sign disclosure agreements. I said, "If you have any ethics at all, you're not going to lie about what you see in my house today [My husband and I] have a good life here. We have a good relationship and a great child. And do not go outside of this house and be bitches and queens and cunts and put down another woman just because you're pissed that I married a heartthrob and you believe Vanity Fair. All right, fuckers?" They come in, they've got this rack of clothes. I'm not gonna wear their fuckin' clothes - I'm gonna wear my own nightie! And then the head of Geffen's art department is telling me, "Well, the editor of Mirabella really wants to put you in Christian LaCroix and blah, blah, blah." I said, "You know what? You get me a Chanel suit, I'll pose." With green fingernail polish. Wouldn't you?
